Most dominant player in the NFL at their position?

ObeySteve
10-05-2004, 06:26 PM
Simple enough question....which player do you consider to be the most dominant at their respective position in the NFL?

(You'll notice I made it drastically less options than I could have....but I did that intentionally. Lots of guys could be considered fairly dominant (Strahan, Bailey to name a couple), but only the guys on the poll could be consider to seriously be in the hunt for a poll like this.

FearTheFlyers
10-05-2004, 06:36 PM
Ogden

JCD
10-05-2004, 06:52 PM
I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.

ObeySteve
10-05-2004, 06:54 PM
I don't think you can go wrong with any of them.

You have to pick one though, JCD. ;)

I made the poll because it's such an extremely close call....you could easily make a good case for any of the 6 guys.

Oilers_775
10-05-2004, 07:24 PM
Ogden.

USC Trojans
10-05-2004, 07:29 PM
Ogden...by far the most dominant OT in the game.

Brodeur
10-05-2004, 08:09 PM
Tough one between Lewis and Odgen. Went with Lewis, but like JCD said, can't go wrong with anybody.

Big McLargehuge
10-05-2004, 08:15 PM
Ogden, by far the best tackle in the game.

JCD
10-05-2004, 08:19 PM
Since I have to pick one...

Most dominant implies that no other dominates at the same level.

Can't be Manning. He isn't even neccesarily the best QB. Even if he were, there are four others who are nipping at his heels. If Manning is a 100, then Brady, Culpepper, McNair and McNabb sitting around 95.

Can't be Moss. As fantastic as he is, Harrison is pretty darn close. Maybe not as snazzy after the catch or have the outstanding athletic ability, but a stand-out. This gap is a bit wider than QB, but Moss still isn't head and shoulders above the rest. Just nose up.

Tomlinson is out. While the best back IMO, Holmes and Green make a strong case as well. He isn't THAT much better.

Ogden is out. Definately the best linemen in the game, but there are a number of other high-end linemen close to him. Pace for example.

Gonzalez is definately a possiblity. No other TE is as good as a receiver as he is. However, I would cross him off due to one thing: blocking. Gonzo isn't a bad blocker, but he isn't a good one either. Both are key to the position.

Though I got here by process of elimination, Lewis is a deserving pick. No other LBs come close to his impact on the field. You name it, he does it. Blitz, cover, tackle, lead. He is a defining player of this era.

PantherboyHTR
10-05-2004, 09:56 PM
Vanderjet should be a strong consideration I'd think.

As well as Dawkins.

JCD
10-05-2004, 10:01 PM
I think Ed Reed and Roy Williams might contest Dawkins' claim.

Akers and Vinatieri (both outdoors) say something about Vanderjagt (dome).

Tuggy
10-05-2004, 10:11 PM
I don't think Pace is as far off of Ogden as people think. Ogden is the best tackle but IMO Pace is a CLOSE second.

Honestly it's a tough choice between them all, they are all great players. But I will also have to go with Ray Lewis. Simply put he can do everything.

FlyersGuy69
10-05-2004, 10:59 PM
Though I got here by process of elimination, Lewis is a deserving pick. No other LBs come close to his impact on the field. You name it, he does it. Blitz, cover, tackle, lead. He is a defining player of this era.
I have to disagree. Urlacher is very close.

JCD
10-05-2004, 11:05 PM
I have to disagree. Urlacher is very close.

Urlacher is a bit over-rated IMO. He is certainly one of the best MLBs in the league, but he doesn't make anywhere close to the amount of plays that Lewis does.

Herby
10-05-2004, 11:24 PM
Urlacher is a bit over-rated IMO. He is certainly one of the best MLBs in the league, but he doesn't make anywhere close to the amount of plays that Lewis does.

Yeah but in fairness to Urlacher he doesn't have the luxury of playing with the likes of Peter Boulware, Chris McAllister, Ed Reed and Terrell Suggs.

Not saying Ray Lewis is a product of his teammates, but it doesn't hurt. He plays in a great 3-4 system with some great players.

DBC Tweeker
10-06-2004, 01:22 AM
The way I see it, Al Wilson and Brian Urlacher are closer to Ray Lewis than Orlando Pace is to Ogden.

Vagrant
10-06-2004, 01:44 AM
Roy Williams at Safety
Kris Jenkins at Defensive Tackle
Champ Bailey at Corner Back
Derrick Brooks at Outside Linebacker
Kevin Mawae at Center
Todd Sauerbrun at Punter
Mike Vanderjagt at Kicker

Names to consider at other positions:

Alge Crumpler TE Atlanta Falcons - Not nearly the recieving threat that Tony Gonzalez is, but he's a more complete TE. He has a huge frame and is one of the best blocking TE's in the league. He's like a 6th offensive lineman that can catch the ball and make clutch plays when called upon. He's not as flashy, and therefore not as noticed, as Gonzalez but he has made quite a few lists as top TE in the game recently.

Takeo Spikes OLB Buffalo Bills - Takeo has really come into his own in Buffalo after playing in relative obscurity in Cincinatti for the better part of his early career. Spikes moved from MLB to OLB and quickly found success and is now on pace towards becoming an elite player in the near future. I have him ranked after Brooks and just before Arrington in my OLB rankings. In a few years, Spikes will probably be recognized as one of the best in the game.

DBC Tweeker
10-06-2004, 02:06 AM
Brian Dawkins at Safety
Champ Bailey at Cornerback
Ray Lewis at Middle Linebacker
Lavar Arrington at Outside Linebacker
Kris Jenkins at Defensive Tackle
Michael Strahan at Defensive End
Kevin Mawae at Center
Jonathan Ogden at Offensive Guard
Will Shields at Offensive Tackle
Tony Gonzalez at Tight End
Randy Moss at Wide Receiver
Fred Beasley at Fullback
LaDainian Tomlinson at Halfback
Peyton Manning at Quarterback

Legionnaire
10-06-2004, 07:22 AM
Tony Gonzalez. No one else is near as athletic as he is at the position. Basically, he is a receiver with a TE's body.

I was interested to see what Winslow could do this year, but he got injured. He was the only one who I've seen that could come close to TG's athleticism

JCD
10-06-2004, 07:43 AM
Kevin Mawae isn't even neccesarily the best center in the league, let alone the most dominant. Olin Kreutz and Matt Birk are at least as good. If not better.

JCD
10-06-2004, 08:00 AM
Yeah but in fairness to Urlacher he doesn't have the luxury of playing with the likes of Peter Boulware, Chris McAllister, Ed Reed and Terrell Suggs.

Not saying Ray Lewis is a product of his teammates, but it doesn't hurt. He plays in a great 3-4 system with some great players.

True, Lewis does have the better supporting cast. That can be spun both ways. It could mean that Lewis looks better because of where he is, or it can mean that Urlacher needs more talent around him to look better.

Urlacher looked great his 1st two years when the Bears did have a lot of talent around him. The past two years, he has been considerably less effective as defenses focus on him more.

Two flaws in Urlacher's game: running at him. Despite his size, Urlacher is not all that powerful at the point of attack. Teams running right at him negate his speed, and often find success. If a blocker gets to Urlacher, he has a tough time shedding. Second, coverage. Urlacher, despite once being a safety, is not a stand-out in coverage. He holds his own, but he doesn't pick off the ball and handle good RBs/TEs 1-on-1. Again, not trying to take anything away from Urlacher because he is the 2nd or 3rd best LB in the game IMO and his coverage/run-stopping are better than 90% of LBs out there.

Now, Lewis isn't perfect either, but he flaws are fewer. Lewis is not the blitzer that Urlacher is. Honestly, I think that is Urlacher's only advantage over Lewis. That can be attributed to style though too. It isn't that Lewis can't blitz, it is that they don't need him too because A.Thomas, Suggs and Bouleware are ideal blitzers.

To be fair, I do see a lot more of Urlacher than I do Lewis. I don't watch Al Wilson enough to form an educated opinion on him, though I do know he is also one of the best.

skidboot
10-06-2004, 09:07 AM
I voted for Ogden.


He can wipe out the Right Side of the D-Line and its like trying to circumnavigate the globe in trying to beat the guy in Pass Protection.

in the hall
10-06-2004, 09:18 AM
Kevin Mawae isn't even neccesarily the best center in the league, let alone the most dominant. Olin Kreutz and Matt Birk are at least as good. If not better.
I very much disagree. Mawae's physical abilities put him ahead of the pack. He can out run most linebackers and block most tackles. His agility is remarkable when you consider his size.


I went with Ogden over Lewis. Amazing how many top talents the Ravens have.
if you were to go by ratings like JCD went above they probably have the most 90+ players among teams

JCD
10-06-2004, 10:33 AM
I very much disagree. Mawae's physical abilities put him ahead of the pack. He can out run most linebackers and block most tackles. His agility is remarkable when you consider his size.

I went with Ogden over Lewis. Amazing how many top talents the Ravens have.
if you were to go by ratings like JCD went above they probably have the most 90+ players among teams

You should watch Birk and Kreutz play some time. They are both just as impressive. IMO, more-so. Even if you call Mawae the best, he is not notable better than either of them.

Mawae has slowed down the past two seasons. He is 33 and age is starting to show. He is not the player of 5 years ago. He is also undersized for a OL and doesn't get much movement in the ground game. Jets run more G-T rather than C-G as a result.

At this point, Kreutz is the most athletic center in the NFL. His combo of size, speed and strength is better than anybody else. He can flat-out move. Only knock on him is too many penalties. He makes more mental mistakes than either Birk or Mawae.

Birk is the least athletic of the three, but he makes up for that with discipline and performance. He doesn't get the penalties that the others do. He is also the biggest and strongest of the three and gets the best push on the ground. While not as athletic, he is still one of the best pulling centers in the league. Birk (and Kleinsasser) are why Urlacher has been a non-factor against the Vikes. Only knock on him is his injury dings.

IMO, you can't go wrong with any of those three. All of them are pretty-much equal.

As for the Ravens, they do have a ton of top-end players: Ed Reed, Ogden, Lewis, McAllister, Mulitalo, Jamal Lewis, Heap...

Problem is, for all their strengths, they may be the worst team in the league when it comes to QB and WRs. They are bottom-5 in both areas.

popperbolt*
10-06-2004, 10:58 AM
I voted for Ogden.


He can wipe out the Right Side of the D-Line and its like trying to circumnavigate the globe in trying to beat the guy in Pass Protection.

imagine Odgen at LT and Allen at LG :eek:

PredsFan77*
10-06-2004, 11:13 AM
Gonzo

in the hall
10-06-2004, 11:58 AM
You should watch Birk and Kreutz play some time. They are both just as impressive. IMO, more-so. Even if you call Mawae the best, he is not notable better than either of them.

Mawae has slowed down the past two seasons. He is 33 and age is starting to show. He is not the player of 5 years ago. He is also undersized for a OL and doesn't get much movement in the ground game. Jets run more G-T rather than C-G as a result.

At this point, Kreutz is the most athletic center in the NFL. His combo of size, speed and strength is better than anybody else. He can flat-out move. Only knock on him is too many penalties. He makes more mental mistakes than either Birk or Mawae.

Birk is the least athletic of the three, but he makes up for that with discipline and performance. He doesn't get the penalties that the others do. He is also the biggest and strongest of the three and gets the best push on the ground. While not as athletic, he is still one of the best pulling centers in the league. Birk (and Kleinsasser) are why Urlacher has been a non-factor against the Vikes. Only knock on him is his injury dings.

IMO, you can't go wrong with any of those three. All of them are pretty-much equal.

As for the Ravens, they do have a ton of top-end players: Ed Reed, Ogden, Lewis, McAllister, Mulitalo, Jamal Lewis, Heap...

Problem is, for all their strengths, they may be the worst team in the league when it comes to QB and WRs. They are bottom-5 in both areas.
Mawae leads the jets blocking when they run, he jumps to the outside in front of Cmart and clears it up. He is both a dominant run blocker and pass blocker, him being undersized is irrelevant because it is not noticable in his game or of any detriment. As for his discipline, Mawae is as discipline as any lineman can be, in fact the Jets entire OL are one of the more discipline in the entire league.

Vagrant
10-06-2004, 12:12 PM
Tony Gonzalez. No one else is near as athletic as he is at the position. Basically, he is a receiver with a TE's body.

I was interested to see what Winslow could do this year, but he got injured. He was the only one who I've seen that could come close to TG's athleticism

To that, I have a differance of opinion. If he's a reciever in a TE's body, why is he not a reciever? That would be like putting Jamal Lewis at FB and calling him a running back in a fullback's body. Jamal Lewis would pretty easily be the best FB in the league if he was placed in that position. He blocks pretty well and we all know about his rushing ability. Does that mean he's the best pure FB in the league? I'd say not. When I think of roles that are clearly defined, I don't think of versitle players that could play one of two positions but pick the easier to establish themselves. This is no knock against Gonzalez, who's a pretty great receiver in his own right. It's due to the fact that people always think the more offensive player is more productive in every situation. It's that way in all sports. Being a great blocking TE in this day and age is like being a great defensive defenseman in hockey. Only the real fans know what they're looking at when they see it. Does that make Tom Poti better than Barret Jackman? I'd say not.

To me, the primary function of a TE is to be an extra blocker in rushing downs and the first check down in case your WR's routes are broken. To be reliable enough with your hands to catch a 3-yard TD pass and reliable enough with your feet to roll out and block on a sweep. These TE's like Shockey, Winslow II, and Gonzalez to a lesser extent all make their living being TE's that play like WR's. When judging the best TE in the league, I want a tried and true TE that can play the position on every down and do what he is asked to do. Is Alge Crumpler more naturally gifted than these three? Not nearly. Does he know how to play the game in a way that makes him more useful when the ball isn't in his hands? Absolutley. If my team doesn't have a primary passing threat, then i'll take Gonzalez. If my team is working to establish all facets of the offense, then give me Crumpler.

JCD
10-06-2004, 01:24 PM
Mawae leads the jets blocking when they run, he jumps to the outside in front of Cmart and clears it up. He is both a dominant run blocker and pass blocker, him being undersized is irrelevant because it is not noticable in his game or of any detriment. As for his discipline, Mawae is as discipline as any lineman can be, in fact the Jets entire OL are one of the more discipline in the entire league.

That isn't the shortcoming I was referring too. You are taking about him pulling to the outside and taking on LBs and/or DEs. Something he (and Birk and Kreutz) excel at. What I was talking about is drive blocking. When Mawae is asked to stay at home and move the DTs aside. This is where he struggles and falls behind Kreutz and especially Birk. This is where his undersized nature does become apparent. He doesn't get much movement. Especially 1-on-1.

That this is not very noticable is a credit to Coach Edwards. Jets just don't run up the middle like that very often. They play to their strengths, bouncing to the outside (where Mawae can pull) or go through the G-T gap. You put your players in situations for them to succeed. Why ask Mawae to struggled to push DTs 50+ pounds heavier than him when you can wall off and go elsewhere and/or have Mawae pull and take out a much smaller DE/LB?

As for discipline, Mawae and Kreutz both take more penalties than Birk.

I see more of Kreutz and Birk than I do Mawae. Kreutz and Birk are exceptional linemen. From what I have seen of Mawae, he has not looked any better. This is no slight to Mawae in the least, he is an exceptional center. Just stating that there are two other centers out there who look just as good.

Brock
10-06-2004, 01:51 PM
Close, but I'd say Ray Lewis.

He's simply unbelievable. Ray Lewis is everywhere on the field. You try to run the ball to the outside, Lewis is there. Run the ball up the middle, Lewis is there. Short reception, Lewis is there. Deep ball, Lewis is there. Lewis is near or at the play nearly every single time a play is run.

Legionnaire
10-06-2004, 04:01 PM
To that, I have a differance of opinion. If he's a reciever in a TE's body, why is he not a reciever? That would be like putting Jamal Lewis at FB and calling him a running back in a fullback's body. Jamal Lewis would pretty easily be the best FB in the league if he was placed in that position. He blocks pretty well and we all know about his rushing ability. Does that mean he's the best pure FB in the league? I'd say not. When I think of roles that are clearly defined, I don't think of versitle players that could play one of two positions but pick the easier to establish themselves. This is no knock against Gonzalez, who's a pretty great receiver in his own right. It's due to the fact that people always think the more offensive player is more productive in every situation. It's that way in all sports. Being a great blocking TE in this day and age is like being a great defensive defenseman in hockey. Only the real fans know what they're looking at when they see it. Does that make Tom Poti better than Barret Jackman? I'd say not.

To me, the primary function of a TE is to be an extra blocker in rushing downs and the first check down in case your WR's routes are broken. To be reliable enough with your hands to catch a 3-yard TD pass and reliable enough with your feet to roll out and block on a sweep. These TE's like Shockey, Winslow II, and Gonzalez to a lesser extent all make their living being TE's that play like WR's. When judging the best TE in the league, I want a tried and true TE that can play the position on every down and do what he is asked to do. Is Alge Crumpler more naturally gifted than these three? Not nearly. Does he know how to play the game in a way that makes him more useful when the ball isn't in his hands? Absolutley. If my team doesn't have a primary passing threat, then i'll take Gonzalez. If my team is working to establish all facets of the offense, then give me Crumpler.

Did you just say you'd take Crumpler over Gonzalez? :lol

John Flyers Fan
10-06-2004, 04:09 PM
Urlacher is a bit over-rated IMO. He is certainly one of the best MLBs in the league, but he doesn't make anywhere close to the amount of plays that Lewis does.


Agreed, IMO Urlacher gets extra pub for two main reasons

#1. He's the MLB for the Bears following in the Singletary & Butkus tradition.

#2. He's a white guy, in a position now dominated by black guys.

Dr Love
10-06-2004, 04:20 PM
Did you just say you'd take Crumpler over Gonzalez? :lol
Alge Crumpler is probably the most well rounded TE in the league. He is an excellent pass catcher, and good blocker. Gonzalez is one dimensional (although he is excellent at that dimension). But he's a poor blocker, and blocking is an integral part of being a TE.

JCD
10-06-2004, 04:24 PM
Agreed, IMO Urlacher gets extra pub for two main reasons

#1. He's the MLB for the Bears following in the Singletary & Butkus tradition.

#2. He's a white guy, in a position now dominated by black guys.

You could add #3 to that: his first 2 years. Urlacher's best seasons were his first two. He opened eyes with how quickly he adapted from SS to MLB (with a brief and failed stop at OLB). I remember think that this guy would be unstoppable in 3 years. Only problem was that he kinda leveled off early. He didn't take that next step from being damn good to being a definitive player. In that respect, he reminds me of Arrington (not in the style or consistency department, but as in he didn't build on his great NFL start).h

John Flyers Fan
10-06-2004, 05:02 PM
You could add #3 to that: his first 2 years. Urlacher's best seasons were his first two. He opened eyes with how quickly he adapted from SS to MLB (with a brief and failed stop at OLB). I remember think that this guy would be unstoppable in 3 years. Only problem was that he kinda leveled off early. He didn't take that next step from being damn good to being a definitive player. In that respect, he reminds me of Arrington (not in the style or consistency department, but as in he didn't build on his great NFL start).h

Urlacher's play dropped off as soon as the Bears got rid of the two big space eaters they had at DT.

They freed Urlacher up to run all day. He's not nearly as good at fighting off blocks as Lewis.