Butterfly or Standup?

bruins4777*
12-13-2004, 05:44 PM
Its become apparent that the butterfly is the dominant style in the NHL and i was wondering what you guys thought about this?

Do you think butterfly works better in today's NHL. I personally don't like the butterfly much. Granted luongo is my favorite goalie and raycroft is a huge fav of mine, but i never try to follow their game, its just not me. I think for a goalie, its more instinct for what style you want to go with. Early on i started with a crazy flopping style, but i've retreated to a sean burke/brodeur-esque standup style. I tried really hard to follow luongo and raycroft, i've seen these guys more times than i can count, but i just could never get it to flow. I realize the butterfly takes discipline, and i can seem to maintain a focused techinical standup, but the butterfly just doesn't work...

I was wondering what you guys thought on the better style. Butterfly or standup?

Personally i think the standup is the way to go. Granted the goalie, won't cover the bottom of the net all that well, but goalies with quick feet can make up for this. Look at brodeur and burke in his prime, or even vokoun and esche now. Maybe its cause i'm ultra short for a goalie, but i think its more efficient and better for a goalie's overall game.

I realize the butterfly takes away the whole bottom, and most people tend to shoot low, but i think that the butterfly is one that holds many flaws, such as preventing players from pokechecking which to me leads to a lot more chances around the crease.

Personally i'd like to see more richter, vokouns, brodeurs, and throwback belfours.

Missionhockey
12-13-2004, 07:44 PM
I don't know about anyone else, but I actually get excited when I see a standup goalie. It makes low, hard shots more effective and I hardly ever roof the puck. Also dekes usually work better on stand up goalies.

Malefic74
12-13-2004, 07:45 PM
Brodeur and Burke don't play the stand-up style. They play a hybrid. In fact it's just easier to say they play a non-butterfly style. The last goalie who played a by-the-book stand-up style was Kirk MacLean in Vancouver, or Burke when he was in New Jersey and Hartford.

And I don't believe that the butterfly inherently limits the use of the pokecheck at all. While I don't consider myself a butterfly goalie, I have snapped a few pokechecks from my knees in my time. In fact, it works better because even if a shooter gets it away, odds are it hits your pads anyway, and with the big pads butterfly goalies favour they would close the five hole too.

I can't say whether one technique is better than any other technique. Force Martin Brodeur to play butterfly and I don't think he'd be as good. Force Luongo to play stand-up and I don't think he'd be as good either. Styles are as unique as the guys who don the pads and what works for one, may not work for another.

User571
12-13-2004, 08:10 PM
Its become apparent that the butterfly is the dominant style in the NHL and i was wondering what you guys thought about this?

Do you think butterfly works better in today's NHL. I personally don't like the butterfly much. Granted luongo is my favorite goalie and raycroft is a huge fav of mine, but i never try to follow their game, its just not me. I think for a goalie, its more instinct for what style you want to go with. Early on i started with a crazy flopping style, but i've retreated to a sean burke/brodeur-esque standup style. I tried really hard to follow luongo and raycroft, i've seen these guys more times than i can count, but i just could never get it to flow. I realize the butterfly takes discipline, and i can seem to maintain a focused techinical standup, but the butterfly just doesn't work...

I was wondering what you guys thought on the better style. Butterfly or standup?

Personally i think the standup is the way to go. Granted the goalie, won't cover the bottom of the net all that well, but goalies with quick feet can make up for this. Look at brodeur and burke in his prime, or even vokoun and esche now. Maybe its cause i'm ultra short for a goalie, but i think its more efficient and better for a goalie's overall game.

I realize the butterfly takes away the whole bottom, and most people tend to shoot low, but i think that the butterfly is one that holds many flaws, such as preventing players from pokechecking which to me leads to a lot more chances around the crease.

Personally i'd like to see more richter, vokouns, brodeurs, and throwback belfours.
Reflex Butterfly

bruins4777*
12-13-2004, 09:20 PM
Brodeur and Burke don't play the stand-up style. They play a hybrid. In fact it's just easier to say they play a non-butterfly style. The last goalie who played a by-the-book stand-up style was Kirk MacLean in Vancouver, or Burke when he was in New Jersey and Hartford.

And I don't believe that the butterfly inherently limits the use of the pokecheck at all. While I don't consider myself a butterfly goalie, I have snapped a few pokechecks from my knees in my time. In fact, it works better because even if a shooter gets it away, odds are it hits your pads anyway, and with the big pads butterfly goalies favour they would close the five hole too.

I can't say whether one technique is better than any other technique. Force Martin Brodeur to play butterfly and I don't think he'd be as good. Force Luongo to play stand-up and I don't think he'd be as good either. Styles are as unique as the guys who don the pads and what works for one, may not work for another.

Bleh i GUESS brodeur and burke play the hybrid, but if your going to talk about PURE standup then of course captain kirk is your man, but i guess in the past 7 years the standard for standup has been lowered...you could say vokoun is standup also, but vokoun, brodeur, burke, and esche ALL lean towards standup as a first reflex. Esche the least of the 4, but they are more standup. If your going to talk pure standup...i agree, but i dunno. The kind of style brodeur and burke play is what i'm really talking about.

Rarely do those guys drop on both their knees. I know i make it a promise to myself to only drop down on one knee at a time. I dunno...just me...

"Styles are as unique as the guys who don the pads and what works for one, may not work for another"

I agree. Like i said, i guess its "instinct". I modeled myself after burke in phoenix from about 2001-2003...I melded that with the way razor uses paddledown for wraparounds, brodeur uses paddledown for the crease, and my stance after richter and vokoun...

Anthony*
12-14-2004, 12:24 AM
Reflex Butterflyhaha

i think thats an oxymoron

gr8haluschak
12-14-2004, 01:10 AM
Bleh i GUESS brodeur and burke play the hybrid, but if your going to talk about PURE standup then of course captain kirk is your man, but i guess in the past 7 years the standard for standup has been lowered...you could say vokoun is standup also, but vokoun, brodeur, burke, and esche ALL lean towards standup as a first reflex. Esche the least of the 4, but they are more standup. If your going to talk pure standup...i agree, but i dunno. The kind of style brodeur and burke play is what i'm really talking about.

Rarely do those guys drop on both their knees. I know i make it a promise to myself to only drop down on one knee at a time. I dunno...just me...

"Styles are as unique as the guys who don the pads and what works for one, may not work for another"

I agree. Like i said, i guess its "instinct". I modeled myself after burke in phoenix from about 2001-2003...I melded that with the way razor uses paddledown for wraparounds, brodeur uses paddledown for the crease, and my stance after richter and vokoun...

Umm I don't know what you are watching but none of them "rarely" drop to their knees, and stand up is not their first "choice". If you watch when they stand up or go down it is all based on where the puck is going, if it is down low they ALL go into the butterfly, since it only makes sense if it is above their waste high then they will stand up (which is where they differ from true butterfly goalies).

Anthony*
12-14-2004, 03:42 AM
uh

what are YOU watching?

brodeur hasnt gone into a true butterfly in years

do you even know what butterfly means

gr8haluschak
12-14-2004, 04:15 AM
uh

what are YOU watching?

brodeur hasnt gone into a true butterfly in years

do you even know what butterfly means

Really, seems to me when a shot goes toward his fivehole he drops into one, oh yeah that is right dropping to your knees is not a butterfly. The only reason it appears he doesn't drop to a butterfly as ofter is the fact he has VERY poor flexibility and he has to resort to the "kick save" to cover the corners, but that is right I don't know what I am talking about.

Anthony*
12-14-2004, 04:24 AM
yes brodeur has poor flexibility:lol:

here let me educate you

butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/garon.JPG

not butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/brpdeursdfd.JPG

butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/chl5.JPG

not butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/brodeur6.JPG

"poor flexibility" haha

that really takes the cake

Jason MacIsaac
12-14-2004, 06:09 AM
The last ultimate stand up goaltender was Chrs Terreri......he looked funny in 2000 with the devils :)

User571
12-14-2004, 12:35 PM
haha

i think thats an oxymoron
Not really-kind of a more agressive butterfly-true butterflyers like Giguere really dont react at all to shots besides dropping to their knees-Basically a reflex butterfly just going down in butterfly then reacting to the shot with your legs or hands, rather than being almost robotic. Take Theodore as an example.

Anthony*
12-14-2004, 01:52 PM
i know i was just joking with you

'reflex butterfly' seems like the best way to describe alot of the finnish goalies nowadays

The Old Master
12-14-2004, 02:03 PM
every goalie is defferent, there is no one way to play.

User571
12-14-2004, 02:34 PM
yes brodeur has poor flexibility:lol:

here let me educate you

butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/garon.JPG

not butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/brpdeursdfd.JPG

butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/chl5.JPG

not butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/brodeur6.JPG

"poor flexibility" haha

that really takes the cake
Brodeur never uses the butterfly. he will drop down on buth knees with his pads facing the ice covering absolutely nothing. He also tends to go down on only one knee and gives up crap goals (Larionov Farewell game, the goal he gave up to Danny Markov to knock his team out of the 2004 playoffs etc.)
Don't get me wrong, he's a great goalie but he's painful for me to watch.

Malefic74
12-14-2004, 03:13 PM
Really, seems to me when a shot goes toward his fivehole he drops into one, oh yeah that is right dropping to your knees is not a butterfly. The only reason it appears he doesn't drop to a butterfly as ofter is the fact he has VERY poor flexibility and he has to resort to the "kick save" to cover the corners, but that is right I don't know what I am talking about.

I actually prefer to use a kick save to cover the corners. Simple reason: Rebound control. On a kick save you can direct the rebound to the corner or the side boards (especially true if you tandem the save with the stick.) I've lost track of how many rushes have started the other way because I was able to kick a rebound to the off winger.

Playing the butterfly is a more passive style, you're letting the puck hit you which means you can't always get a handle on the rebounds, and pucks that hit and bounce tned to do so on the same angle they came in on ie. right back in front of the net. This isn't as pronounced a problem for veteran goalies in the NHL who have trained themselves how to drop with a slight angle to minimize the rebounds, but boy do you ever see it in rookies and younger tenders.

Again I'm not saying one is better than the other. I struggled with rebound control for a while and simply found that active goaltending was far better for me than the passsive style.

bruins4777*
12-14-2004, 09:57 PM
Brodeur never uses the butterfly. he will drop down on buth knees with his pads facing the ice covering absolutely nothing. He also tends to go down on only one knee and gives up crap goals (Larionov Farewell game, the goal he gave up to Danny Markov to knock his team out of the 2004 playoffs etc.)
Don't get me wrong, he's a great goalie but he's painful for me to watch.
Larinov goal he was horribly out of pracitce and as for the danny markov goal thank colin white he couldn't see the puck.

I love watching brodeur, his style is incredible. Probably cause i'm a big standup goalie fan...

As for burke and brodeur never choosing to go down and using the butterfly as their first option? What hockey am i watching? Look in the mirror.

OneMoreAstronaut
12-15-2004, 01:39 AM
In my opinion, if Burke and Brodeur are considered the closest thing to the league's "stand-up" goaltenders, then the stance truly is dead.

BuppY
12-16-2004, 12:58 AM
as a forward I like to face a Butterfly goalie, than a stand up goalie, and I find it more exciting to play agianst a Butterfly goalie. I don't know I seem to struggle with Stand-up goalies, I don't know why and as far as deaking goes it's easier to beat a butterfly goalie than a stand up those stand up goalies usually poke check, but if you can get away from the poke check than you have yourselves a easy goal, I like shooting on a Butterfly goalie beacuse you can make a extra move knowing it's unlikely he is going to poke check you.

gr8haluschak
12-16-2004, 02:16 AM
yes brodeur has poor flexibility:lol:

here let me educate you

butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/garon.JPG

not butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/brpdeursdfd.JPG

butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/chl5.JPG

not butterfly: http://www.smacknuts.com/upload/brodeur6.JPG

"poor flexibility" haha

that really takes the cake


I must laugh at your smack, do you know why he doesn't have any great butterfly, oh of coarse you don't I mean because he is so flexible in the hip just like everyone else in the world, after all you don't need that for butterfly flare right. I am not wasting ANY more of my time comments from you since you have no idea.

gr8haluschak
12-16-2004, 02:20 AM
Brodeur never uses the butterfly. he will drop down on buth knees with his pads facing the ice covering absolutely nothing. He also tends to go down on only one knee and gives up crap goals (Larionov Farewell game, the goal he gave up to Danny Markov to knock his team out of the 2004 playoffs etc.)
Don't get me wrong, he's a great goalie but he's painful for me to watch.

In it's basic sense dropping to your knees is a butterfly with a "V" formation from your legs back in the day that was the butterfly - the pads were face down, the reason his pads hit the ice face down is the fact that he wears them so tight to his legs, as opposed to all the true buuterfly goalies who have them fairly loose so when they do go down their pads roll onto their inside edges.

gr8haluschak
12-16-2004, 02:25 AM
I actually prefer to use a kick save to cover the corners. Simple reason: Rebound control. On a kick save you can direct the rebound to the corner or the side boards (especially true if you tandem the save with the stick.) I've lost track of how many rushes have started the other way because I was able to kick a rebound to the off winger.

Playing the butterfly is a more passive style, you're letting the puck hit you which means you can't always get a handle on the rebounds, and pucks that hit and bounce tned to do so on the same angle they came in on ie. right back in front of the net. This isn't as pronounced a problem for veteran goalies in the NHL who have trained themselves how to drop with a slight angle to minimize the rebounds, but boy do you ever see it in rookies and younger tenders.

Again I'm not saying one is better than the other. I struggled with rebound control for a while and simply found that active goaltending was far better for me than the passsive style.


The only knock on a kick save though hit does produce rebounds, if you can perfect the art of being able to kick it to your wingers/d men that is great. Rebounds from a butterfly simply occur because of the fact that you don't get your stick on the puck to redirect the puck. As well one thing that also works is the fact that if you angle your pads to the conners the puck will go there unless it hits your toe area where more than likely it comes back out.

Anthony*
12-16-2004, 02:41 AM
you said one of the best goalies to ever play the game has very poor flexibilty and I have no idea? :lol:

bruins4777*
12-18-2004, 08:39 PM
as a forward I like to face a Butterfly goalie, than a stand up goalie, and I find it more exciting to play agianst a Butterfly goalie. I don't know I seem to struggle with Stand-up goalies, I don't know why and as far as deaking goes it's easier to beat a butterfly goalie than a stand up those stand up goalies usually poke check, but if you can get away from the poke check than you have yourselves a easy goal, I like shooting on a Butterfly goalie beacuse you can make a extra move knowing it's unlikely he is going to poke check you.

When i'm forward, which is rare cause i suck at forward :D , i like to go against standup guys. Because i have nothing more than a strong low wrist shot, so i like to use that to take down goalies. I like to come in and just shoot it at their feet, stand ups tend to be worse at low shots, so thats why i go there.

I don't like watching butterfly goalies as much on breakaways, because they tend to be boring and just go and follow the puck then do the typical butterfly drop...

It Kills Me
12-18-2004, 09:36 PM
As a foward, its surprising when a goalie does't use the butterfly or not cover the net.

User571
12-31-2004, 05:46 PM
In it's basic sense dropping to your knees is a butterfly with a "V" formation from your legs back in the day that was the butterfly - the pads were face down, the reason his pads hit the ice face down is the fact that he wears them so tight to his legs, as opposed to all the true buuterfly goalies who have them fairly loose so when they do go down their pads roll onto their inside edges.
Yeah-I dont see a point in having your pads tight. Im not a full butterfly goalie, but I wear them lose so they take up more net-seems to make sense.

bruins4777*
01-02-2005, 10:42 PM
Yeah-I dont see a point in having your pads tight. Im not a full butterfly goalie, but I wear them lose so they take up more net-seems to make sense.
I wear mine tight...to me its just annoying, to have them loose and drag around i just hate it. I like them tight so i have a feeling when I drop down and such...I dunno. I play standup....

kold
01-11-2005, 05:08 PM
agh...in this day and age of goaltending, there is not a defined "style" of goaltending.

even a "standup" goalie will drop down to the butterfly to make some saves, and a "butterfly" goalie will play certain shots on their feet. if you have to label modern goaltending with a "style" i would say that most goalies nowadays use a "pro-fly" or "hybrid" style of play. there are certain save selections that are good for certain types of shots, and saying that someone is a stand-up goalie or a butterfly goalie is meaningless, because nobody will use just one technique on ALL types of shots.

goaltending styles do not and should not dictate the way a goalie plays a shot - rather the shot should dictate the approach a goalie takes to make the save or play.

Brodeur
01-11-2005, 07:31 PM
Brodeur never uses the butterfly. he will drop down on buth knees with his pads facing the ice covering absolutely nothing. He also tends to go down on only one knee and gives up crap goals (Larionov Farewell game, the goal he gave up to Danny Markov to knock his team out of the 2004 playoffs etc.)
Don't get me wrong, he's a great goalie but he's painful for me to watch.

He'll half butterfly a lot (one pad face down on the ice, the other facing the shooter). He went to the Francois Allaire school before, but he said that style of goaltending just didn't come natural to him.

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/_photos/2003-05-27-inside-brodeur-u.jpg

http://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20040222/wflam0222/puck2.jpg

http://www.gazzetta.it/Foto%20Hermes/2003/12-Dicembre/14/brodeur--310x210.jpg

http://www.ihwc.spb.ru/a_015/images/06_brodeur.jpg

http://www.newjerseydevils.com/2003/gameday/images/rnd3gm5_brodeur.jpg

http://espn-ak.starwave.com/media/nhl/2003/0523/photo/a_brodeur_ft.jpg

http://nhl.speedera.net/image-upload/hull_vs_brodeur_280x194.jpg

User571
01-17-2005, 11:23 AM
I wear mine tight...to me its just annoying, to have them loose and drag around i just hate it. I like them tight so i have a feeling when I drop down and such...I dunno. I play standup....
Yeah Ive recently started doing up the bottom of the leg channel pretty tight. I keep the top of my pads kinda loose so they still rotate good, but it does feel better to have them tight. It keeps my ankles stabalized since I cant tie my skates tight enough.

Douggy
01-19-2005, 08:33 AM
He'll half butterfly a lot (one pad face down on the ice, the other facing the shooter). He went to the Francois Allaire school before, but he said that style of goaltending just didn't come natural to him.

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/_photos/2003-05-27-inside-brodeur-u.jpg

http://images.theglobeandmail.com/archives/RTGAM/images/20040222/wflam0222/puck2.jpg

http://www.gazzetta.it/Foto%20Hermes/2003/12-Dicembre/14/brodeur--310x210.jpg

http://www.ihwc.spb.ru/a_015/images/06_brodeur.jpg

http://www.newjerseydevils.com/2003/gameday/images/rnd3gm5_brodeur.jpg

http://espn-ak.starwave.com/media/nhl/2003/0523/photo/a_brodeur_ft.jpg

http://nhl.speedera.net/image-upload/hull_vs_brodeur_280x194.jpg
All of those look like hes asking fro a broken knee-cap if the puck gets deflected the wrong way. Personally, I don't know how anyone can bend there knees sideways like a 'full' butterfly.

bruins4777*
01-19-2005, 09:54 AM
All of those look like hes asking fro a broken knee-cap if the puck gets deflected the wrong way. Personally, I don't know how anyone can bend there knees sideways like a 'full' butterfly.

Look at roy. Its called insane flexibility.

Brodeur learned his butterfly the half triangle thing from the great great vladisalv tretiak.