NFL Week 15 Thread: "0-4 Eli vs 11-0 Ben"

The Guy on the Couch*
12-18-2004, 02:48 AM
:lol :lol :lol

Tuggy
12-18-2004, 02:50 AM
Ben's TD total, because Eli won't throw any picks :teach:

IkeaMonkey*
12-18-2004, 02:58 AM
:lol :lol :lol

OH MAN! IT NEVER GETS OLD, DOES IT?! ROOFLE!! ROOFLE!!1one!one!

But seriously, Mr. Ed needs more of a beating, I think he's still breathing.

:deadhorse

Guy on the Couch, please make a post game thread when the Steelers win too. This horse just wont stay down.

BigStar
12-18-2004, 04:13 AM
correction should be pittsburgh's running game and defense..then worry about bens td's(if he gets any) :lol

Anthony*
12-18-2004, 04:58 AM
LOL ONE ROOKIE QB IS STRUGGLING AND ONE IS HAVING SUCCESS

AND THATS NOT IT

THE ONE THAT IS STRUGGLING WAS DRAFTED HIGHER THAN THE ONE THAT IS SUCCESSFUL LMAO

OH MAN IT DOESNT GET ANY BETTER THAN THAT

I.am.ca
12-18-2004, 05:29 AM
I bet Eli has thrown more interceptions that have resulted in a touchdown than Ben's total TD's.

I.am.ca
12-18-2004, 05:30 AM
LOL ONE ROOKIE QB IS STRUGGLING AND ONE IS HAVING SUCCESS

AND THATS NOT IT

THE ONE THAT IS STRUGGLING WAS DRAFTED HIGHER THAN THE ONE THAT IS SUCCESSFUL LMAO

OH MAN IT DOESNT GET ANY BETTER THAN THAT


Are you kidding?

Just because your drafted #1 overall doesn't mean jack, most guys that are drafted 1st overall don't even pan out, the guys that get drafted lower are the ones that have a longer career.

Evilo
12-18-2004, 07:47 AM
voted Eli's INT because of the dominance of the Steelers'D these days.

guinness
12-18-2004, 08:44 AM
Everybody looks at Ben Roethlisberger in Pittsburgh and his 12 straight wins and seems to take that as proof that there’s no reason not to play a rookie quarterback in the NFL. Nothing could be farther from the truth. It's probably the most difficult.

Ironically, a rookie’s best chance to succeed is with a superior team, which is where he is least likely to get the chance. There’s no question that Roethlisberger is a great talent and could have had some success with a lesser team. But the reason he’s been successful is because the Steelers are a great team with a ferocious defense and a relentless running game. He doesn’t have to be the hero and doesn’t have to carry the offense. And when he does throw, he has some outstanding wide-outs to go to.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6715492/

As an impartial observer, Manning looks like another rookie QB, playing on a bad team, making rookie mistakes. Roethlisberger has had the better stats and looked better, but it's rather moot when the Steelers are just that much better than the Giants as a team.

Eli's INT total over Ben's TD total.

GKJ
12-18-2004, 09:29 AM
Eli's INT's because if the Steelers get in the red zone they'll just keep giving it to Staley and Bettis anyways.

Legionnaire
12-18-2004, 11:15 AM
The Giants will win this game.

Jaysfanatic*
12-18-2004, 11:33 AM
Last week, the best pass Eli made was to Kurt Warner, that was hilarious, and Warners reaction was like wtf???

Hockeyfan02
12-18-2004, 11:42 AM
Cause only QBs win games, the other 52 guys have nothing to do with teams winning or losing.....

Edit: Voted Eli's Ints because hes going to throw an INT, with Big Ben you dont know if hes going to throw a TD.

IkeaMonkey*
12-18-2004, 11:44 AM
Cause only QBs win games, the other 52 guys have nothing to do with teams winning or losing.....

And the Steelers are such trash, It's been Big Ben carrying them all the way.

Fire Sather
12-18-2004, 01:45 PM
yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah!! BIG BEN PICKED!!

hate that guy...

Anthony*
12-18-2004, 01:48 PM
Are you kidding?

Just because your drafted #1 overall doesn't mean jack, most guys that are drafted 1st overall don't even pan out, the guys that get drafted lower are the ones that have a longer career.yes i was kidding

theres a pick by ben

MontrealCruiser_83*
12-18-2004, 01:49 PM
This afternoon is shaping up to be an interesting pissing contest between Giant and Steeler fans in this thread.

Fire Sather
12-18-2004, 01:50 PM
J-e-t-s

Jets Jets Jets

IkeaMonkey*
12-18-2004, 01:52 PM
This afternoon is shaping up to be an interesting pissing contest between Giant and Steeler fans in this thread.

Giants fans?? I'm willing to bet the majority-if-not-all "giants fans" in this thread, are just sick of the Steeler/Ben homerism.


Oh and sweet drop by Shockey. Polamalu was all over him, but as the saying goes, If you get your fingers on it, it should be a catch.

Anthony*
12-18-2004, 01:53 PM
yea im a niners fan

i cant wait for them to get destroyed by a mediocre skins team later on

DJ Spinoza
12-18-2004, 01:54 PM
Deep pass by Roethlisberger to Randel El. Best QB evar, let's keep judging on each individual play!!!!!

I can't stand Shockey. I've always hated Miami, and Shockey has always been a tool. I'm glad he's sucking it up right now.

The Giants need to obiously improve their line, but picking up a really good reciever for Manning would do a lot of good, I think.

DJ Spinoza
12-18-2004, 01:55 PM
Nice play call by Whisenhunt. TD flick to Haynes, nobody was expecting that.

7-7

Fire Sather
12-18-2004, 01:55 PM
Giants fans?? I'm willing to bet the majority-if-not-all "giants fans" in this thread, are just sick of the Steeler/Ben homerism.


Oh and sweet drop by Shockey. Polamalu was all over him, but as the saying goes, If you get your fingers on it, it should be a catch.

exactly.

:shakehead so lame, another trick play by the steelers in the redzone.. cant get in the right way.

DJ Spinoza
12-18-2004, 02:03 PM
exactly.

:shakehead so lame, another trick play by the steelers in the redzone.. cant get in the right way.

7 points are 7 points. :shakehead

I'm not even going to get into it. I've stayed out of the Roethlisberger thread for a reason. I've typed up a few replies, and then just bagged it, because it isn't worth it.

The fact of the matter is that Roethlisberger is a rookie on a good team doing what's asked of him. He's not a world beater and he doesn't have to be. He's shown signs that he will continue to develop right now, and he's made some big plays when he's had to to help win a few tight games.

That's it. The arguments should all end there. The whole issue is totally worthless banter.

Manning is obviously having struggles on a poor team. I haven't watched him playing that much until today, so I don't know much about him.

That's all I'm going to bothr saying about this whole issue.


As a side note, make a stinking tackle Steelers! I'm facing Barber this week in the first week of the playoffs. :banghead:

Fire Sather
12-18-2004, 02:05 PM
7 points are 7 points. :shakehead

I'm not even going to get into it. I've stayed out of the Roethlisberger thread for a reason. I've typed up a few replies, and then just bagged it, because it isn't worth it.

The fact of the matter is that Roethlisberger is a rookie on a good team doing what's asked of him. He's not a world beater and he doesn't have to be. He's shown signs that he will continue to develop right now, and he's made some big plays when he's had to to help win a few tight games.

That's it. The arguments should all end there. The whole issue is totally worthless banter.


Manning is obviously having struggles on a poor team. I haven't watched him playing that much until today, so I don't know much about him.

That's all I'm going to bothr saying about this whole issue.


As a side note, make a stinking tackle Steelers! I'm facing Barber this week in the first week of the playoffs. :banghead:

Yeah, he overrated, period. :shakehead

Hockeyfan02
12-18-2004, 02:06 PM
yea im a niners fan

i cant wait for them to get destroyed by a mediocre skins team later on

I'm with ya on that one. :(

TD pass by Eli.

DJ Spinoza
12-18-2004, 02:08 PM
Yeah, he overrated, period. :shakehead

What some fans are saying about Roethlisberger is totally inconsequential. I don't care what they are saying. The Steelers have a good team this year, and have drafted a talented quarterback who is showing signs of improvement.



Randel El wide open deep again. :handclap:

Fire Sather
12-18-2004, 02:08 PM
Gotta give Ben that.. good pass to randle el :handclap:

still hated.

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 02:14 PM
And your trying to tell me Ben isnt a caretaker?! Do you Steeler fans watch the games? All I've seen so far is Jerome, Jerome, toss up to wide open WR's, Jerome, Jerome, broken coverage

The Steelers could make Ryan Leaf the comeback player of the year in this offense.

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 02:23 PM
Damn, after making arguably the best throw in NFL history to Ike Hilliard, Eli scrambles for a 1st. Is that Eli or Mike Vick out there?

And the Giants cost Eli another 1st down completion. Sweet

Fire Sather
12-18-2004, 02:32 PM
Roughing the passer and all penatlies realted to hitting a QB a certain way are the worst calls in football.

klingsor
12-18-2004, 02:36 PM
Roughing the passer and all penatlies realted to hitting a QB a certain way are the worst calls in football.

Giants don't have enough problems as it is.

Steelers don't need the ****ing refs to help them.

Brutal call.

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 02:36 PM
More notes:

Cut Alexander and shun him and his family from NY for missing an easy open field tackle.

I want to drive to the Meadowlands and drill that official with a snowball. I dont care if I get arrested, I get irrational with my football.

I could have made that TD throw to Randle El.

Fire Sather
12-18-2004, 02:38 PM
yawn... seen it before, Big Ben to a wide open WR. Nothing is amazing about getting the time to throw to a wide open WR

Zetterberg4Captain*
12-18-2004, 02:38 PM
Ben's TDs. I rarely watch NFL games but I am watching this one.

ObeySteve
12-18-2004, 02:38 PM
yawn... seen it before, Big Ben to a wide open WR. Nothing is amazing about getting the time to throw to a wide open WR

....But Big Ben is amazing!

Chaos
12-18-2004, 02:39 PM
Damn, after making arguably the best throw in NFL history to Ike Hilliard, Eli scrambles for a 1st. Is that Eli or Mike Vick out there?

Please tell me that was sarcastic.

Chaos
12-18-2004, 02:40 PM
yawn... seen it before, Big Ben to a wide open WR. Nothing is amazing about getting the time to throw to a wide open WR

Still have to make the throw. Seen plenty of QB's either underthrow that pass and the guy get tackled or overthrow it incomplete.

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 02:40 PM
Please tell me that was sarcastic.
Well it could be argued. It might be quickly dismissed but I couuuuld argue it.

IkeaMonkey*
12-18-2004, 02:41 PM
Roughing the passer and all penatlies realted to hitting a QB a certain way are the worst calls in football.

I didnt even hear a whistle. I mean, his forward motion was stopped, but there was no whistle that I heard.

I like the non-call for Barber as well.

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 02:42 PM
Still have to make the throw. Seen plenty of QB's either underthrow that pass and the guy get tackled or overthrow it incomplete.
Your right. But I think the majority of NFL quarterbacks could make that pass with a 90% success rate.

IkeaMonkey*
12-18-2004, 02:42 PM
Still have to make the throw. Seen plenty of QB's either underthrow that pass and the guy get tackled or overthrow it incomplete.

He had a ten yard cushion. He could have underthrown it, overthrown it, hell I bet he could have punted it to Randle El and he still would have made the catch.

Fire Sather
12-18-2004, 02:42 PM
Still have to make the throw. Seen plenty of QB's either underthrow that pass and the guy get tackled or overthrow it incomplete.

Its funny, too. Some would aruge Chad Pennington couldnt make the throw because of his "12 year old arm".

The arugement that Chad Pennington can't throw downfield is really stupid, because he can throw a deep ball 50 yards downfield. But, thats a whole different animal, and a much better QB.

Chaos
12-18-2004, 02:43 PM
Your right. But I think the majority of NFL quarterbacks could make that pass with a 90% success rate.

90% could complete the pass. But I dont think quite that many could drop it right in there perfectly. I'd say about 70% could do that. Cause if you underthrow it just a bit, that safety is going to break it up.

Chaos
12-18-2004, 02:44 PM
He had a ten yard cushion. He could have underthrown it, overthrown it, hell I bet he could have punted it to Randle El and he still would have made the catch.

You missed the safety about two yards to the inside then. He underthrows it, and it either gets broken up or tackled.

Oh nice shorthop throw there by Manning. But thats because his O-Line sucks, isnt it?

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 02:50 PM
You missed the safety about two yards to the inside then. He underthrows it, and it either gets broken up or tackled.

Oh nice shorthop throw there by Manning. But thats because his O-Line sucks, isnt it?
Ha, yea and great throw by Roethlisberger on the Peterson Penalty Play.

Chaos
12-18-2004, 02:51 PM
Ha, yea and great throw by Roethlisberger on the Peterson Penalty Play.

Yeah, he threw it away because no one was open, like all QB's are supposed to do :shakehead . He didnt underthrow a guy about 8 yards away who was wide open.

Fire Sather
12-18-2004, 02:51 PM
Giants secondary is a joke

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 02:52 PM
Yeah, he threw it away because no one was open, like all QB's are supposed to do :shakehead . He didnt underthrow a guy about 8 yards away who was wide open.
Yea, Eli was throwing it away too.

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 02:53 PM
Giants secondary is a joke
The same defense that made Kyle Boller look like Peyton last week

Chaos
12-18-2004, 02:58 PM
Yea, Eli was throwing it away too.

No, he had a guy wide open and threw it at his feet. Take those blue glasses off.

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 03:07 PM
Ok halftime. Roethlisberger INT's:1 the Manning INT's:0..............by the way, Eli is hooking up with Lindsay Lohan. He's cooler than Ben too.

Hockeyfan02
12-18-2004, 03:11 PM
Pretty good game so far. Ben is looking pretty good so far except a few questionable throws. I think he needs to learn when to throw it away and not try to make a play out of nothing like on his INT, something I've noticed he doesnt do often when I've seen him play. Giants secondary is getting owned. A guy shouldnt be able to catch a 25 yard pass when the QB is throwing off his back foot and hanging it for 5 seconds in the air. Eli has looked decent. Nothing great, but not the horrible hes been lately. Seemed like he wasnt trying to make a mistake on that pass that landed short. Penalty calls (the non call on Barber and the roughing the QB) had me scratching my head. I agreed with the non-call Barber, but if youre going to give that one on Ben, then you might as well call the Barber one as well.

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 03:15 PM
HAHAHAHA Ben had literally 10 seconds in the pocket with the best trio of recievers in the NFL-----result: Interception

It amazed me how the Steelers win despite Roethlisberger

V for Voodoo
12-18-2004, 03:15 PM
heh, an INT that would make Losman proud.

Hockeyfan02
12-18-2004, 03:16 PM
I think he needs to learn when to throw it away and not try to make a play out of nothing like on his INT, something I've noticed he doesnt do often when I've seen him play.

Like the INT he just threw on 3rd down in the 2nd half. Brutal decision. Throw it out of bounds and let your D get you the ball back.

Chaos
12-18-2004, 03:17 PM
It amazed me how the Steelers win despite Roethlisberger

Do you even pay attention to the NFL :shakehead ?

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 03:19 PM
Eli for first down. I like, I like. Oh and the Steelers get called for holding. So thats how they win games, by cheating.

DJ Spinoza
12-18-2004, 03:20 PM
Take a chill pill, there, Shockey. :lol

Chaos, he's trolling for responses.

Chaos
12-18-2004, 03:20 PM
Oh nice, Mr. Overrated himself with his helmet off talking **** he cant back up :lol

Anthony*
12-18-2004, 03:21 PM
i think he backed it up in the first quarter

DJ Spinoza
12-18-2004, 03:21 PM
Like the INT he just threw on 3rd down in the 2nd half. Brutal decision. Throw it out of bounds and let your D get you the ball back.

I agree. That was a really poor decision there. He wasn't even throwing it at a reciever.

The two INTs for Big Ben this week are both from bad decisions, unlike the two last week which one was a hail mary and the other was just a pinball unlucky bounce.

Chaos
12-18-2004, 03:21 PM
Chaos, he's trolling for responses.

Yeah just realized that. What a tool :shakehead .

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 03:23 PM
Do you even pay attention to the NFL :shakehead ?
Oh you mean the NFL that saw a 23 year old guy from Tennessee throw 11 interceptions in his first four starts? Or the NFL that saw Trent Dilfer lead a team to a Superbowl? Or this NFL where people wants to write off a Manning after 4 games and annoint another rookie the king while throwing 17 passes a game?

Chaos
12-18-2004, 03:24 PM
i think he backed it up in the first quarter

Still doesn't change the fact that he's horribly, horribly overrated.

Burberry Manning
12-18-2004, 03:25 PM
Yeah just realized that. What a tool :shakehead .
No but I guess it's cool for a guy to use 'smilies'. Get your skills up and find out what a real tool is.

Chaos
12-18-2004, 03:27 PM
Oh you mean the NFL that saw a 23 year old guy from Tennessee throw 11 interceptions in his first four starts? Or the NFL that saw Trent Dilfer lead a team to a Superbowl? Or this NFL where people wants to write off a Manning after 4 games and annoint another rookie the king while throwing 17 passes a game?

1. Dilfer didn't lead the Ravens anywhere. That ridiculous defense did.
2. We can only go by what we have seen. Ben has played great, Eli has played ******.

Anthony*
12-18-2004, 03:27 PM
Still doesn't change the fact that he's horribly, horribly overrated.how is he overrated?

nobody is talking about him this season

nobody is mentioning him in the same breath as the successful te's this year(gates, whitten, etc.)

so how is he overrated

who overrates him

Chaos
12-18-2004, 03:27 PM
No but I guess it's cool for a guy to use 'smilies'. Get your skills up and find out what a real tool is.

My "skills"? What the hell are you talking about?

DJ Spinoza
12-18-2004, 03:29 PM
Bettis is just rolling over the Giants this drive.

Anyone get the Sporting News? They came out with their all-overated NFL team this week.

Nice run by Haynes to the 17. :handclap:

Chaos
12-18-2004, 03:30 PM
how is he overrated?

nobody is talking about him this season

nobody is mentioning him in the same breath as the successful te's this year(gates, whitten, etc.)

so how is he overrated

who overrates him

In general whenever I hear/see people talking about top TE's, he's always mentioned, a lot usually right after Gonzalez. He got all his hype after he ran over a guy half his size in the preseason of his rookie year, then promptly managing to collect a whopping 9 TD's over the course of his career. But maybe its just the people I talk to. Who knows.

Hockeyfan02
12-18-2004, 03:32 PM
Well Eli and Ben are just as bad on screen passes. :lol:

klingsor
12-18-2004, 03:33 PM
That shoulda been INT #3 for the BIG Wunderkind.

Chaos
12-18-2004, 03:40 PM
Nice throw by Manning.....had to happen eventually.

Joe T Choker
12-18-2004, 03:43 PM
24-23 Gee Men

Hockeyfan02
12-18-2004, 03:44 PM
Nice drive by Eli. The kid has found some confidence.

Gibsons Finest
12-18-2004, 03:50 PM
To answer this poll, how bout a better question:

Which # will be higher? Eli's TDs or Big Ben's INTs?


Steeler fans, you had to see this coming, especially the guy who started this thread. IIRC, that's also the guy who said that the World Series, Yankees vs. Cards, would be a great one, after game 2 of the ALCS or sometime around then.

IkeaMonkey*
12-18-2004, 03:57 PM
To answer this poll, how bout a better question:

Which # will be higher? Eli's TDs or Big Ben's INTs?


Steeler fans, you had to see this coming, especially the guy who started this thread. IIRC, that's also the guy who said that the World Series, Yankees vs. Cards, would be a great one, after game 2 of the ALCS or sometime around then.

Same guy who said anyone who takes Utah over Pitt is an idiot...

Avery4Byng*
12-18-2004, 04:09 PM
This is pretty damn entertaining game... Gotta love Saturday games

Anthony*
12-18-2004, 04:17 PM
credit that int to toomer

Hockeyfan02
12-18-2004, 04:32 PM
Steelers>Giants on this day.

Eli>Roethlisberger today. Impressive effort by Manning after something that should have crushed his confidence last week. BIG step in the right direction for him. Big Ben made some plays as well, but his INTs were just bad, rookie mistakes. Good days by both players but Eli IMO looked better today.

Tuggy
12-18-2004, 04:35 PM
Steelers>Giants on this day.

Eli>Roethlisberger today. Impressive effort by Manning after something that should have crushed his confidence last week. BIG step in the right direction for him. Big Ben made some plays as well, but his INTs were just bad, rookie mistakes. Good days by both players but Eli IMO looked better today.

Ya, Eli looked pretty good today. Should do wonders for his confidence and hopefully people will lay off the guy and let him develop.

klingsor
12-18-2004, 04:38 PM
I'm guessing Pittsburgh just played down to their competition today.

Can't tell just how good Ben is as his receivers were
wide open all day. Eli's brother woulda had 7 TDs easy.

By far the best game Eli has played. It seems to have given him some confidence.

Anthony*
12-18-2004, 04:46 PM
as for the original poll

eli had more td's and less int's than big ben :lol:

ObeySteve
12-18-2004, 04:46 PM
Honestly, this Steelers team doesn't deserve to be on the list of the great 15-1 teams in NFL history.

Evilo
12-18-2004, 04:47 PM
Well I told you these Steelers could lose any game.
Still it's good to see another win, but it was less than impressive.
Was Ben nervous to face Eli? The media has been on this matchup all week, and it was clearly Ben's worst outing as a Steeler, worse than last week.
Eli on the other hand, might have been motivated to face Ben. He clearly was better today.

IkeaMonkey*
12-18-2004, 04:52 PM
He threw for 300 yards, I'd hesitate to call it his worst game of the season. He threw 2 INTs and a 3rd that SHOULD have been picked. I'd like to think last week, throwing for less than 50%, half the yards and less TDS or 9-20 in washington were far worse games.

IkeaMonkey*
12-18-2004, 04:54 PM
In response to the guy who started the thread...

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

How does it feel to be wrong on BOTH accounts?

Evilo
12-18-2004, 04:57 PM
He threw for 300 yards, I'd hesitate to call it his worst game of the season. He threw 2 INTs and a 3rd that SHOULD have been picked. I'd like to think last week, throwing for less than 50%, half the yards and less TDS or 9-20 in washington were far worse games.
He only had one drive where he was dominant, probably the last one (that lead to Bettis' TD).
Against Washington, he was facing a dominant defense, and the running game didn't work very well.
Tonight, he had an effective Bettis and a swiss cheese defense, and for the first time he made rookie mistakes.

clefty
12-18-2004, 04:57 PM
In response to the guy who started the thread...

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

How does it feel to be wrong on BOTH accounts?
At 13-1...I don't think he'll care.

IkeaMonkey*
12-18-2004, 04:59 PM
At 13-1...I don't think he'll care.

OH OH NOW, we praise the TEAM's accomplishments?

Vic Rattlehead*
12-18-2004, 05:02 PM
Honestly, this Steelers team doesn't deserve to be on the list of the great 15-1 teams in NFL history.
Doesn't matter how you win, just as long as you can get a victory.

clefty
12-18-2004, 05:03 PM
OH OH NOW, we praise the TEAM's accomplishments?
Give it a rest, I'm not even a Steelers fan.

ATG
12-18-2004, 05:23 PM
Eli outplayed Big Ben but the Steelers won so :dunno:

Broadway Brett
12-18-2004, 05:26 PM
If the refs made that obvious call on the Toomer play the Giants would've won the game. :banghead: :mad: :madfire: The *****ing refs are so retarded. :madfire: It sucks that the refs have ruined a SB chance for the Giants (In 2002 against the 49ers), and a playoff chance.

clefty
12-18-2004, 05:32 PM
If the refs made that obvious call on the Toomer play the Giants would've won the game. :banghead: :mad: :madfire: The *****ing refs are so retarded. :madfire: It sucks that the refs have ruined a SB chance for the Giants (In 2002 against the 49ers), and a playoff chance.
Rubbish.

The two were giving each other a couple of small nudges, but Toomer fell down when Williams' hands were clear from Toomer's body, their feet were tangled together which caused the fall. Williams ALWAYS had eyes for the football. Legitimate interception.

Hockeyfan02
12-18-2004, 05:32 PM
If the refs made that obvious call on the Toomer play the Giants would've won the game. :banghead: :mad: :madfire: The *****ing refs are so retarded. :madfire: It sucks that the refs have ruined a SB chance for the Giants (In 2002 against the 49ers), and a playoff chance.

You can blame your defense for the loss in 2002. Should have never come to that when they were up by 20+ points.

Broadway Brett
12-18-2004, 05:33 PM
Rubbish.

The two were giving each other a couple of small nudges, but Toomer fell down when Williams' hands were clear from Toomer's body, their feet were tangled together which caused the fall. Williams ALWAYS had eyes for the football. Legitimate interception.
From what I saw, there feet never tangled, Williams pushed him. I thought it was obvious.

Broadway Brett
12-18-2004, 05:34 PM
You can blame your defense for the loss in 2002. Should have never come to that when they were up by 20+ points.
Still, the refs blew that call.

clefty
12-18-2004, 05:37 PM
From what I saw, there feet never tangled, Williams pushed him. I thought it was obvious.
I think you're wrong.

MontrealCruiser_83*
12-18-2004, 05:51 PM
The ankles definately tangled.

Broadway Brett
12-18-2004, 05:55 PM
I think you're wrong.
Maybe there is a reason the NFL hasn't contacted me for a referee position...

FlyerFire
12-18-2004, 10:07 PM
threw for over 300 yds,Bettis ran for 150 or so.The Giants played very well.Give Manning his props.I've heard all week how he was gonna be confused, etc.Maybe not this year, but he's gonna be good if not great.

The Guy on the Couch*
12-18-2004, 10:28 PM
More notes:

I could have made that TD throw to Randle El.

:lol :lol :lol

Legionnaire
12-18-2004, 10:49 PM
I was pretty close with my prediction.

Steve Latin*
12-19-2004, 04:04 AM
I was pretty close with my prediction.

It actually wasn't. You predicted that the Giants would win. They lost. How is that close?

S L

BigStar
12-19-2004, 04:29 AM
If the refs made that obvious call on the Toomer play the Giants would've won the game. :banghead: :mad: :madfire: The *****ing refs are so retarded. :madfire: It sucks that the refs have ruined a SB chance for the Giants (In 2002 against the 49ers), and a playoff chance.

hey i will give the you the niners call there..although if your def wasn't so crappy it would've never come to that....but i saw that play today and toomer tripped on his own...when he fell, no steeler was touching him...blame toomer not the refs :teach:

Legionnaire
12-19-2004, 05:28 AM
It actually wasn't. You predicted that the Giants would win. They lost. How is that close?

S L

Uh, three points. It wasn't like it was a blow out.

I never argued that my prediction was correct, just close.

Broadway Brett
12-19-2004, 09:30 AM
hey i will give the you the niners call there..although if your def wasn't so crappy it would've never come to that....but i saw that play today and toomer tripped on his own...when he fell, no steeler was touching him...blame toomer not the refs :teach:
You sure? I saw it today on SportsCenter, and I thought that Williams not only tripped him, but gave him a decent push.

klingsor
12-19-2004, 10:53 AM
You sure? I saw it today on SportsCenter, and I thought that Williams not only tripped him, but gave him a decent push.

It was a slight push, but Toomer had been doing a little pushing of his own, too. What made Toomer fall was Willams running up on him a little and making foot on foot contact. It was "incidental" as Willams was looking at the ball and trying to make an interception. Under the rules, it was not pass interference. Not that I haven't seen similar plays called pass interference.

Giants ain't going anywhere, anyway. Manning has a game he can build on and maybe we get a slightly higher 2nd rounder. Don't knock it. We got Snee with this year's 2nd rounder and he's looked very good.

Vic Rattlehead*
12-19-2004, 11:26 AM
Atlanta - Carolina game was awesome.

Broadway Brett
12-19-2004, 11:43 AM
It was a slight push, but Toomer had been doing a little pushing of his own, too. What made Toomer fall was Willams running up on him a little and making foot on foot contact. It was "incidental" as Willams was looking at the ball and trying to make an interception. Under the rules, it was not pass interference. Not that I haven't seen similar plays called pass interference.

Giants ain't going anywhere, anyway. Manning has a game he can build on and maybe we get a slightly higher 2nd rounder. Don't knock it. We got Snee with this year's 2nd rounder and he's looked very good.
I also thought that the "Unnecessary Roughness" call on Alexander (The gang tackle) was a VERY weak call. He didn't throw him down, he gently put him down, and the whistle didn't even blow when he did that. That was a 3rd down, and it set up a TD. So, IMO, either way you look at it, the refs *****ed us up.

And we're only a game out of the playoff race if Seattle loses today. We would've been tied with them had we won (Which we should have, but the refs screwed us up) and Seattle lost.

And I'm begging that we can get Michael Munoz and/or Chris Henry in the second round. I wouldn't be surprised if we were able to get both, because of Henry's attitude (He'll probably fall to the 3rd round) and Munoz's shoulder (He'll probably fall to the 2nd). So, I got a few guys picked out for us.

Hockeyfan02
12-19-2004, 12:04 PM
Do the Giants lose games or is it the refs that screw up and cause them to lose all their games?

Burberry Manning
12-19-2004, 12:37 PM
So wait, what did we see yesterday.......

Roethlisberger had 2(shoulda been 3) INT's and Eli had 1. But I'm not even going to consider the Manning's pick as an interception since it was an arguable P.I. call and it was a deep toss where his reciever fell down. Ben throws for 300+ yards against the same defense that made Kyle Boller look like Dan Marino. I seriously think Ryan Leaf throws for 300 in yesterday's game. Eli winds up with a better completion % than Ben. Sweet. And as if Hines Ward and Randle-El weren't advantages enough, Roethlisberger has 7 seconds to throw and a back that churned out 150 yards. Eli has better protection finally, a back that got half of Bettis' production, and recievers that fall down on their deep routes. Not only did Eli outplay Ben and put up better numbers, but he did so without the luxuries that Ben had. We finally saw a glimpse of why Eli Manning was the first overall pick.

The Giants may have lost on the field yesterday but I think we might look back in a few years and see December 18th's game as the biggest Giant victory all year.

Patty Ice
12-19-2004, 12:44 PM
1. Dilfer didn't lead the Ravens anywhere. That ridiculous defense did.
2. We can only go by what we have seen. Ben has played great, Eli has played ******.

In statement #1, change "Dilfer" to "Roethlisberger" and "Ravens" to "Steelers," cut out statement #2, and then you have something.

Burberry Manning
12-19-2004, 12:50 PM
In statement #1, change "Dilfer" to "Roethlisberger" and "Ravens" to "Steelers," cut out statement #2, and then you have something.
I dont know. I watched the game yesterday and since I "can only go by what I have seen," I have to say that Roethlisberger is ******. So maybe we can keep that last statement and edit Ben's name in there too.

klingsor
12-19-2004, 01:00 PM
Do the Giants lose games or is it the refs that screw up and cause them to lose all their games?

They've lost 'em (blown 'em, too) fair and square.

Last 5 losses, just too many injuries to key players. Not much quality depth, either.

klingsor
12-19-2004, 01:11 PM
I also thought that the "Unnecessary Roughness" call on Alexander (The gang tackle) was a VERY weak call. He didn't throw him down, he gently put him down, and the whistle didn't even blow when he did that. That was a 3rd down, and it set up a TD. So, IMO, either way you look at it, the refs *****ed us up.

And we're only a game out of the playoff race if Seattle loses today. We would've been tied with them had we won (Which we should have, but the refs screwed us up) and Seattle lost.

And I'm begging that we can get Michael Munoz and/or Chris Henry in the second round. I wouldn't be surprised if we were able to get both, because of Henry's attitude (He'll probably fall to the 3rd round) and Munoz's shoulder (He'll probably fall to the 2nd). So, I got a few guys picked out for us.

The roughing the passer penalty was extra-terrible.

Didn't realize we still had a shot at the playoffs.
Man, we sure as hell don't deserve to be in the playoffs.

Please don't get me wrong. I've been a diehard Giant fan since the days of Charlie Conerly, but this ain't no playoff team.

tom_servo
12-19-2004, 02:14 PM
Eli was vry impressive out there. Looked like a new man. But I can't imagine by what stretch of the imagination Ben looked '******' out there.

Burberry Manning
12-19-2004, 02:23 PM
Eli was vry impressive out there. Looked like a new man. But I can't imagine by what stretch of the imagination Ben looked '******' out there.
Well I'm by no means writing Ben off because of one game. I was mocking the moronic judgement of Eli Manning after 4 games in the NFL.

As for Ben's performance yesterday.......he looked like a rookie. The two interceptions(there should have been 3) were awfull and led to Giant points. Yea, he had 300 yards but those were more a result of tremendous recievers and horrid coverage.

DJ Spinoza
12-19-2004, 02:27 PM
So, basically, you are blaming Roethlisberger for the few mistakes he made while giving credit to only the other players or discrediting his opponents for all of the good things he did?

IkeaMonkey*
12-19-2004, 02:32 PM
So, basically, you are blaming Roethlisberger for the few mistakes he made while giving credit to only the other players or discrediting his opponents for all of the good things he did?

Did ya SEE the Giants Secondary at all?

Dr Love
12-19-2004, 02:34 PM
Did ya SEE the Giants Secondary at all?
Hard to see something that doesn't show up.

DJ Spinoza
12-19-2004, 02:39 PM
Did ya SEE the Giants Secondary at all?

Yeah, I did. But you can't just blame the defense. Roethlisberger played well, threw three or four really bad balls, but he got the job done.

It doesn't mean it was his pro bowl campaign or anything, but Roethlisberger had a pretty good game yesterday.

He certaintly didn't play like '******'. Manning played very well, maybe even a little better than Big Ben. I think it was pretty close. But the Steelers won so I don't care.

Burberry Manning
12-19-2004, 02:43 PM
So, basically, you are blaming Roethlisberger for the few mistakes he made while giving credit to only the other players or discrediting his opponents for all of the good things he did?
Did you watch the game?! I saw Roethlisberger scramble around and throw idiotic passes to the Giants. I counted the time he had on one of the plays and he had 9 seconds to find a Steeler or the sidelines but instead he threw it to the Giants. This was a Giants defense that hadn't recorded a pick in four(not sure) games previously but they got two out of Ben. Yea Ben showed some nice arm strength on a few of his throws but you would be blind or football illiterate if you didn't recognize the gifts that the Giants gave him in their coverage. I consistently saw Randle El and Hines Ward have 6+ yards cushions on some of those long throws. Hell, on one of those 40 yard bombs Randle El made a highlight reel catch coming back and jumping for a poorly placed ball. When evaluating a quarterback's performance you obviously have to take into acount the level of competition he is facing. I could have the Arizona Cardinals play a high school team and Josh McCown could throw 7 TD's, but would that impress me? Ben struggled against one of the worst defenses in the NFL, but Eli Manning impressed against the best defense in the NFL.

DJ Spinoza
12-19-2004, 02:49 PM
Yeah, I saw the game.

When evaluating a quarterback's performance you obviously have to take into acount the level of competition he is facing. I could have the Arizona Cardinals play a high school team and Josh McCown could throw 7 TD's, but would that impress me? Ben struggled against one of the worst defenses in the NFL, but Eli Manning impressed against the best defense in the NFL.

1. The I could have so and so play a high school football team argument is really weak. The gap from the NFL to high school in monumental, and the whole thing is really irrelevant.

2. You take into account the competition they are facing, but you don't just ignore that the QB did.

3. Roethlisberger didn't struggle. He got the job done, threw for over 300 yards, but made some bad throws too.

Burberry Manning
12-19-2004, 02:50 PM
Alright, can we get over the 'winning makes Ben amazing' argument. Individual performace and team performance are two seperate entities. Yea, I realize that the two are directly related but one really doesn't dictate the other. You can be a mediocre football player but still play for a dynamic team. If you have a running back churn out 150 yards in a game and have the top ranked defense in the NFL, it shouldn't matter who you have behind the center.

Burberry Manning
12-19-2004, 02:58 PM
Yeah, I saw the game.



1. The I could have so and so play a high school football team argument is really weak. The gap from the NFL to high school in monumental, and the whole thing is really irrelevant.

2. You take into account the competition they are facing, but you don't just ignore that the QB did.

3. Roethlisberger didn't struggle. He got the job done, threw for over 300 yards, but made some bad throws too.
Oh he didnt struggle to defeat a team that just lost to the Washington Redskins? Was he able to throw 4 TD passes against the Giants like Kyle Boller did? Hahaha. Kyle Boller looked like a god against the Giants last week but Roethlisberger gave the Giants 'D' their first interceptions in ages. You can try to throw out any analogies that are posed but you cant mask the fact that Roeth got his first 300 yard game against a Giants defense that generates pro-bowl stats for QB's. Jeff George could have made the throws that Ben made yesterday.

I love how you try to ignore and sidestep the first part of my post.

Just to make my position clear.......I think Ben Roethlisberger will be a fine quarterback in the NFL, but I just disagree with people who attribute the Steelers success to him. The Steelers didnt draft him to play in this role, they drafted him to be a game breaker and he hasnt been put in that situation yet.

tom_servo
12-19-2004, 02:58 PM
Only fools make that argument, anyway. Of course you can't use team records when appraising individual performance. But that isn't what makes Ben impressive.

Broadway Brett
12-19-2004, 03:03 PM
The roughing the passer penalty was extra-terrible.

Didn't realize we still had a shot at the playoffs.
Man, we sure as hell don't deserve to be in the playoffs.

Please don't get me wrong. I've been a diehard Giant fan since the days of Charlie Conerly, but this ain't no playoff team.
Even if we got one of those calls we would've won the game. I wouldn't say that we lost yestarday's game fairly.

And even with yesterday's loss, we do have a chance if Seattle loses. And I agree, we don't deserve to make the playoffs, but neither do the Seahawks or Rams, and one or both are going to get in.

DJ Spinoza
12-19-2004, 03:05 PM
Oh he didnt struggle to defeat a team that just lost to the Washington Redskins? Was he able to throw 4 TD passes against the Giants like Kyle Boller did? Hahaha. Kyle Boller looked like a god against the Giants last week but Roethlisberger gave the Giants 'D' their first interceptions in ages. You can try to throw out any analogies that are posed but you cant mask the fact that Roeth got his first 300 yard game against a Giants defense that generates pro-bowl stats for QB's. Jeff George could have made the throws that Ben made yesterday.

I love how you try to ignore and sidestep the first part of my post.

I don't care whether Jeff George could throw for a millions yards against the Giants, or George Washington State High School, you are making stupid and irrelevant arguments.

Because Roethlisberger didn't thrash the Giants does not mean he struggled. You are talking about the Steelers great running game and defense, yet you ignore them in evaluating Roethlisberger. He isn't going to throw for four touchdowns and five hundred yards because he doesn't have to. The Steelers don't even run the plays to let him get those kind of numbers, and they didn't yesterday.

Roethlisberger again did what they asked of him. This is the third time that I've said he made three or four bad decisions yesterday and two got picked. It's going to happen with rookies. But the fact remains that other than that he did all he was asked to do.

The fact also remains that he didn't play like '******'. That was a foolish thing to say.

Big McLargehuge
12-19-2004, 03:14 PM
Roethlisberger throws for the most yards in his NFL career and struggled.

If what he did against the Giants qualifies as Roethlisberger qualifies as "struggling" I'd hate to see what he does when he plays good.

Burberry Manning
12-19-2004, 03:14 PM
I don't care whether Jeff George could throw for a millions yards against the Giants, or George Washington State High School, you are making stupid and irrelevant arguments.

Because Roethlisberger didn't thrash the Giants does not mean he struggled. You are talking about the Steelers great running game and defense, yet you ignore them in evaluating Roethlisberger. He isn't going to throw for four touchdowns and five hundred yards because he doesn't have to. The Steelers don't even run the plays to let him get those kind of numbers, and they didn't yesterday.

Roethlisberger again did what they asked of him. This is the third time that I've said he made three or four bad decisions yesterday and two got picked. It's going to happen with rookies. But the fact remains that other than that he did all he was asked to do.

The fact also remains that he didn't play like '******'. That was a foolish thing to say.
I agree that he has done what has been asked of him. To manage the game. That is what he has done all year. I just dont agree with those who make him out to be a world beater and list him as a top 10 quarterback. He has managed the Steelers well and usually has not put them in a position to lose. Yesterday I felt that he did jeopardize the Steeler's chances with those picks but like you said, he is a rookie.

My statement that he played "******" was a mocking reply to someone who said Eli played "******"

DJ Spinoza
12-19-2004, 03:16 PM
I agree that he has done what has been asked of him. To manage the game. That is what he has done all year. I just dont agree with those who make him out to be a world beater and list him as a top 10 quarterback. He has managed the Steelers well and usually has not put them in a position to lose. Yesterday I felt that he did jeopardize the Steeler's chances with those picks but like you said, he is a rookie.

My statement that he played "******" was a mocking reply to someone who said Eli played "******"

Fair enough about the joke, but none of the rest means he struggled.

Burberry Manning
12-19-2004, 03:22 PM
Roethlisberger throws for the most yards in his NFL career and struggled.

If what he did against the Giants qualifies as Roethlisberger qualifies as "struggling" I'd hate to see what he does when he plays good.
Are we just going to forget about those three gifts that he gave to the Giants then? Hey if you want to judge a QB on yardage alone then I guess Ben really struggled in all those games where he had less than 190 yards. And gee, I guess Peyton really did have an amazing rookie season with his 3500 yards............we'll just ignore those insignificant interceptions.

And by the way........if you are a Steeler fan then why would you hate to see what Ben does when he plays good? Wouldn't you want to see what he does if he plays good? Do you just not want your players to perform well? Sounds pretty screwed up. No, but thats cool. I always thought that real fans want to see their players play well.

Gibsons Finest
12-19-2004, 04:33 PM
Roethlisberger throws for the most yards in his NFL career and struggled.

If what he did against the Giants qualifies as Roethlisberger qualifies as "struggling" I'd hate to see what he does when he plays good.

Yes, Big Ben struggled.

When you throw 2 picks against the Giants, like it or not, that's struggling. He threw for alot of yards, and that is great, but he's done alot better, and it's been against better defenses. Those two long gains to Randel-el helped a bunch in his high yardage total.

Obviously the Steelers' philosphy doesn't help him, but, I've seen him play much better with it, so I'd consider yesterday's performance struggling.

Fish on The Sand
12-20-2004, 05:23 PM
Question about Manning? Why is he still starting? I mean the team was winning close to .500 under Warner. Did Warner get hurt or something?

BigStar
12-20-2004, 05:36 PM
You sure? I saw it today on SportsCenter, and I thought that Williams not only tripped him, but gave him a decent push.


yeah i actually saw another angle after that post...there was contact could have been called

klingsor
12-20-2004, 05:44 PM
Question about Manning? Why is he still starting? I mean the team was winning close to .500 under Warner. Did Warner get hurt or something?

When Warner was replaced Giants had lost 3 of 4 and their offense was zilch.

Coughlin was hoping that insertion of Manning might get them going. It obviously didn't.

However, injuries to Strahan, Washington and Gibril Wilson decimated defense so even if Warner was still in there, they'd still be pretty bad.

Manning (hopefully) is their future. Might as well suffer growing pains now, instead of later.

Any NY print media that tells you that Coughlin should've stuck with Warner is full of it, as they were all calling for Manning when the Giants were 5-4.

Broadway Brett
12-20-2004, 05:54 PM
yeah i actually saw another angle after that post...there was contact could have been called
Finally someone agrees with me. I was fuming at the call, and I still am.

guinness
12-20-2004, 06:02 PM
Any NY print media that tells you that Coughlin should've stuck with Warner is full of it, as they were all calling for Manning when the Giants were 5-4.

:lol I read an article the other day by one of the MSNBC sports writers, Mike Celizic, blaming Coughlin for sticking with Manning when the Giants were still in the playoff hunt. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6715492/