Who are the worst NFL quarterbacks who always seem(ed) to be starters??

Pensfan86
01-12-2005, 10:45 PM
Ok, in my opinion, Jake Plummer is one of the worst QB's ever. In addition to him, I think that former NFLer Scott Mitchell (played with the lions) was absolutely horrible, but always seemed to be a starter. Any others come to mind?

Mathletic
01-12-2005, 10:50 PM
Ok, in my opinion, Jake Plummer is one of the worst QB's ever. In addition to him, I think that former NFLer Scott Mitchell (played with the lions) was absolutely horrible, but always seemed to be a starter. Any others come to mind?

ain't too bad for the 4th passer in the NFL, 7th in touchdowns, way ahead of Vick in QB rating

Tuggy
01-12-2005, 11:01 PM
Plummer did pass Elway's team record for yards in a season and tied his TD total, so I wouldn't say he is the worst in the NFL. Maybe Josh McCown or Tim Rattay.

Unholy Diver
01-12-2005, 11:03 PM
Elvis Grbac had one or two good years but was pretty crappy overall

Hockeyfan02
01-12-2005, 11:26 PM
Trent Dilfer.

chris_dub
01-12-2005, 11:34 PM
Kurt Warner

IkeaMonkey*
01-12-2005, 11:38 PM
Warren Moon.

Accord
01-12-2005, 11:45 PM
Jay Fiedler.

SwisshockeyAcademy
01-12-2005, 11:45 PM
Steve Walsh.

nyr5186
01-13-2005, 12:01 AM
Jeff George

johnny cool
01-13-2005, 12:14 AM
bledsoe

richardn
01-13-2005, 12:18 AM
Eric Cramer, Rodney Peete, Scott Mitchell, Charlie Batch and Joey Harington (well not yet). :cry:

DisplacedIslander
01-13-2005, 12:23 AM
Neil O'Donnell

SwisshockeyAcademy
01-13-2005, 12:29 AM
Jeff George
good one. I want to do mine over. Jeff George.

monster_bertuzzi
01-13-2005, 12:34 AM
Tim Couch intil this year. Maybe Marc Brunell too.

nyr5186
01-13-2005, 12:48 AM
Shawn King for a few years with Tampa.

Disagree on Bledsoe. When given time in the pocket, he's still very good.

Good call on Brunell. The guy's been overrated his entire career.

coyoteshockeyfan
01-13-2005, 12:48 AM
Neil O'Donnell

Good choice.

X8oD
01-13-2005, 12:51 AM
Eric Cramer, Rodney Peete, Scott Mitchell, Charlie Batch and Joey Harington (well not yet). :cry:

holy string of Lions QB's batman.

Lets throw in a few more. Before Kramer how bout Andre Ware, or around the Batch Era there was Gus Ferrotte [sp?].

Detroit's String of Bad QB's may only be one-upped by The revolving Door of Crap that is The Chicago Offensive Team.

GKJ
01-13-2005, 01:01 AM
Trent Dilfer.


He can't be too bad, he won a Super Bowl



That said I'll take Heath Shuler

Go Flames Go*
01-13-2005, 01:03 AM
He can't be too bad, he won a Super Bowl



That said I'll take Heath Shuler

Dilfer never won anything, it was the Baltimore defence that played offence and defence the entire season that got him his ring.

IkeaMonkey*
01-13-2005, 01:14 AM
Dilfer never won anything, it was the Baltimore defence that played offence and defence the entire season that got him his ring.

Funny, Trent Dilfer called, but I couldnt hear him because his bling bling SB ring was too loud :(

Hasbro
01-13-2005, 01:21 AM
Neil O'Donnell
Agreed.

Possibly the biggest choke in SB history. The only guy he hit in the numbers that night was Larry Brown. And then he bailed for a huge contract with the Jets. I remember his first game, the Broncos sacked him five times and Keyshawn went without a catch.

Jeff George
Cordell Stewart
Cris Chandler

Fish on The Sand
01-13-2005, 02:17 AM
Kurt Warner
doesn't he have the highest qb rating of all time?

BigStar
01-13-2005, 03:55 AM
doesn't he have the highest qb rating of all time?
yeah i don't agree on the warner one either
i have a friend that once said with the rams anyone could stand in there and do what warner did...so where are they're superbowls?? one with warner :dunno:
and although he did not have allstar stats with the giants this year, he was 5-2

Fish on The Sand
01-13-2005, 04:01 AM
yeah i don't agree on the warner one either
i have a friend that once said with the rams anyone could stand in there and do what warner did...so where are they're superbowls?? one with warner :dunno:
and although he did not have allstar stats with the giants this year, he was 5-2
5-4 actually, but Manning was 1-6. Warner in all likelyhood would have gotten them into the playoffs.

BigStar
01-13-2005, 04:25 AM
5-4 actually, but Manning was 1-6. Warner in all likelyhood would have gotten them into the playoffs.
yeah i was just coming to correct that, 5-4. well where will warner end up next year i wonder...maybe big D?

Tuggy
01-13-2005, 04:32 AM
yeah i was just coming to correct that, 5-4. well where will warner end up next year i wonder...maybe big D?

Doesn't matter where Warner goes, his career is over.

BigStar
01-13-2005, 04:33 AM
Doesn't matter where Warner goes, his career is over.
hey if he could win with the giants, i think anything is possible, so negative!

Tuggy
01-13-2005, 04:34 AM
hey if he could win with the giants, i think anything is possible, so negative!

Well, I just don't see him being able to do anything so where else. Maybe if he has an All-pro Oline and pro bowler running back :dunno:

BigStar
01-13-2005, 04:35 AM
Well, I just don't see him being able to do anything so where else. Maybe if he has an All-pro Oline and pro bowler running back :dunno:
you never know i would take him over other qb's in the league..ie dilfer

BigStar
01-13-2005, 04:37 AM
well whatever, we've thread jacked this enough with the great warner debate

Tuggy
01-13-2005, 04:38 AM
you never know i would take him over other qb's in the league..ie dilfer

:joker: Well ya...but he isn't starting anywhere.

BigStar
01-13-2005, 05:46 AM
:joker: Well ya...but he isn't starting anywhere.
ya i suppose, but warner might be next year..you never know, someone will take a chance

tripledekehockey
01-13-2005, 06:17 AM
Kordell Stewart

FearTheFlyers
01-13-2005, 06:49 AM
Well, I just don't see him being able to do anything so where else. Maybe if he has an All-pro Oline and pro bowler running back :dunno:

Trent Green?

Zeus54
01-13-2005, 07:19 AM
Kurt Warner


Really? I thought he was actually quite good in his old St.Louis days and IMO he's still not doing too bad with the Giants...

MacDaddy TLC*
01-13-2005, 08:03 AM
good one. I want to do mine over. Jeff George.
Jeff George has all the tools to be a good QB, he just has the people skills of a snail. He just can't be counted on to be a leader. He can put it together to steal a QBs job if he goes to a team that is struggling, but once he isn't fighting for the job anymore, bad George reappears.

CharlieGirl
01-13-2005, 08:09 AM
He had the starters job (but was successful at working his way out of it) - the absolute worst QB I've seen in years and years is Rob Johnson.

FlyersHomer DM03
01-13-2005, 11:00 AM
Mark Brunell, Tommy Maddox, Jeff George,

Vomiting Kermit*
01-13-2005, 11:04 AM
Ryan Leaf.

John Flyers Fan
01-13-2005, 11:14 AM
Dave Brown .... ex Giants & Cardinals QB.

ObeySteve
01-13-2005, 02:37 PM
Plummer did pass Elway's team record for yards in a season and tied his TD total, so I wouldn't say he is the worst in the NFL. Maybe Josh McCown or Tim Rattay.

Tim Rattay is not the worst QB in the NFL. He played decently with what was absolutely nothing to work with on offense.

The worst starting QBs this season:

1. AJ Feeley
2. Mark Brunell
3. Vinny Testaverde
4. Kerry Collins
5. Kyle Boller

Fish on The Sand
01-13-2005, 02:44 PM
Tim Rattay is not the worst QB in the NFL. He played decently with what was absolutely nothing to work with on offense.

The worst starting QBs this season:

1. AJ Feeley
2. Mark Brunell
3. Vinny Testaverde
4. Kerry Collins
5. Kyle Boller
how does Testaverde make that list? You say Rattay had nothing to work with, what did Vinny have?

monster_bertuzzi
01-13-2005, 02:46 PM
how does Testaverde make that list? You say Rattay had nothing to work with, what did Vinny have?

A good o-line lead by two of the best in Larry Allen and Flozell Adams, two good WR's, a stud TE, and a quality young RB in Julius Jones.

Fish on The Sand
01-13-2005, 02:47 PM
A good o-line lead by two of the best in Larry Allen and Flozell Adams, two good WR's, a stud TE, and a quality young RB in Julius Jones.
Jones only played half the season, and Testaverde had a pretty decent season too. He just simply doesn't belong on that list.

Fish on The Sand
01-13-2005, 02:50 PM
Trent Green?
because he has a good line and an all-pro running back? very smart, uh huh. Did you not realize his all pro running back was out half the season, and since he has no receivers outside of Gonzo to speak of whatsoever, Green was the offense this season? By your logic Manning should be on this list because he has an all-pro back, a good o line, and in fact also has all-pro receivers just too add to it. Green was second in the nfl in passing this season, and has consistantly been at the top of most qb stats the past 3 seasons. It is rediculous to put him on this list, just as it would Mannin, and just as it was Testaverde.

Zeus54
01-13-2005, 02:52 PM
1. AJ Feeley
2. Mark Brunell
3. Vinny Testaverde
4. Kerry Collins
5. Kyle Boller



Testaverde makes your list but not Jeff Garcia??

monster_bertuzzi
01-13-2005, 02:56 PM
Jones only played half the season, and Testaverde had a pretty decent season too. He just simply doesn't belong on that list.

I'm not saying Vinny belongs on the list. Hell, he was awesome with the Jets, but dont say he had nothing to work with in Dallas...

The G Man
01-13-2005, 02:59 PM
Kurt Warner? Warren Moon?

Are you guys kidding me?

Hockeyfan02
01-13-2005, 03:48 PM
how does Testaverde make that list? You say Rattay had nothing to work with, what did Vinny have?

The td-int ratio of 17-20 might have something to do with why Vinny is on the list.

As for the Vinny-Rattay comparison, Vinny had a more to work with. Vinny had a half decent o-line, 2 pretty good receivers and a good TE. Rattay had a horrible o-line which missed Newberry all season long, a decent receiver in Lloyd, and a good TE. Vinny had a running game for the 2nd half of the season, Rattay had a running game for maybe 1 or 2 games.

Fish on The Sand
01-13-2005, 03:58 PM
The td-int ratio of 17-20 might have something to do with why Vinny is on the list.

As for the Vinny-Rattay comparison, Vinny had a more to work with. Vinny had a half decent o-line, 2 pretty good receivers and a good TE. Rattay had a horrible o-line which missed Newberry all season long, a decent receiver in Lloyd, and a good TE. Vinny had a running game for the 2nd half of the season, Rattay had a running game for maybe 1 or 2 games.
Testaverde was also the only reason the Cowboys were remotely respectable.

Hockeyfan02
01-13-2005, 04:08 PM
Testaverde was also the only reason the Cowboys were remotely respectable.

He was also the reason why they were out of the playoff race.

chris_dub
01-13-2005, 04:16 PM
doesn't he have the highest qb rating of all time?

He played with the Rams who were like the most offensively explosive team of that time era. You could've put Ryan Leaf into that situation, & with that team around him, even he could've put up those numbers.

Warner was an under-average QuarterBack overachieving on a stellar team.

Sec of Partying Down
01-13-2005, 04:23 PM
He played with the Rams who were like the most offensively explosive team of that time era. You could've put Ryan Leaf into that situation, & with that team around him, even he could've put up those numbers.

Warner was an under-average QuarterBack overachieving on a stellar team.
So any crap QB could go to a good offensive team and put up the highest passer ratings ever?

ObeySteve
01-13-2005, 05:10 PM
Testaverde was also the only reason the Cowboys were remotely respectable.

Uh, why were the majority of Cowboys fans calling for Testaverde to be yanked halfway through the season then?

Fish on The Sand
01-13-2005, 05:20 PM
Uh, why were the majority of Cowboys fans calling for Testaverde to be yanked halfway through the season then?
yeah, the fans know best :shakehead

Fish on The Sand
01-13-2005, 05:22 PM
He played with the Rams who were like the most offensively explosive team of that time era. You could've put Ryan Leaf into that situation, & with that team around him, even he could've put up those numbers.

Warner was an under-average QuarterBack overachieving on a stellar team.
Bulger has had no problem leading a more deep rams squad into mediocrity. If Warner is on that list, Bulger HAS to be ahead of him.

ObeySteve
01-13-2005, 05:24 PM
In the end.... as much as the Cowboys had to be cautious with Quincy Carter at QB last season, he would have still done a better job with the Cowboys offense if he was with the team than Testaverde did.

ComrieFanatic
01-13-2005, 05:56 PM
payton manning

Zeus54
01-13-2005, 06:02 PM
payton manning




LOL. okkkaay.........................

chris_dub
01-13-2005, 06:09 PM
payton manning

Is he a 2nd cousin or something? :dunno:

Troy McClure
01-13-2005, 06:11 PM
Uh, why were the majority of Cowboys fans calling for Testaverde to be yanked halfway through the season then?
Because Interceptiverde was god awful. He got the job because of what he did for Parcells as a Jet.

Vinny was terrible this year and he only got worse as the season wore on. To say that he gave any respectability to the team is a joke. Vinny singlehandedly lost several games and killed any chances for comebacks in several others. It became a weekly ritual to sit back and wait for yet another 4th quarter interception when the game mattered.

No Quarter
01-13-2005, 06:22 PM
Vick

Ar-too
01-13-2005, 06:28 PM
He played with the Rams who were like the most offensively explosive team of that time era. You could've put Ryan Leaf into that situation, & with that team around him, even he could've put up those numbers.

Warner was an under-average QuarterBack overachieving on a stellar team.

That's quite a steaming load you've got there.

While Kurt Warner may not be the best QB ever, he had 3 pretty good seasons in St. Louis before he got injured and wasn't the same. I'm not saying that he's going to the Hall of Fame or anything, but Ryan Leaf would not have been successful in that situation. Warner's carreer passer rating is 95.7 - which happens to be better than Peyton Manning's.

I wonder who the Rams would've rather had at QB this year: 1999 Kurt Warner or Mark Bulger?

Zeus54
01-13-2005, 06:29 PM
Vick





who?

No Quarter
01-13-2005, 06:31 PM
Vick = Stewart 10 years later

plaugher
01-13-2005, 06:49 PM
Jeff George was the first one that came to my mind.

Chandler and Collins are brilliant choices as well.

Rob Johnson COMPLETELY slipped my mind. I kept trying to figure out who was "in charge" in the transition from Kelly to Bledsoe - all I could remember was that he sucked horribly. Bingo. Rob Johnson.

loveshack2
01-13-2005, 08:23 PM
Who said Warren Moon? Please.

Jeff George is the one who comes to mind first here.

BigStar
01-13-2005, 11:48 PM
payton manning


:lol: you sir are a fool :lol:

BigStar
01-13-2005, 11:49 PM
He played with the Rams who were like the most offensively explosive team of that time era. You could've put Ryan Leaf into that situation, & with that team around him, even he could've put up those numbers.

Warner was an under-average QuarterBack overachieving on a stellar team.


hmm how come bulger can't do the same...same receivers, if anything holt is better now

Big McLargehuge
01-13-2005, 11:50 PM
Neil O'Donnell

*shivers*

Unholy Diver
01-14-2005, 12:05 AM
how you can say O'donnell was a bad QB is beyond me...his td-int ratio was almost 2:1 which is better than several hall of famers, you cant base it on the fact that he threw a two bad picks in the superbowl

if you want to talk bad Qb's just look a little further back and you can find the likes of Jay Schroeder and Jack Trudeau and Gary Hogeboom

Burberry Manning
01-14-2005, 12:11 AM
Vick = Stewart 10 years later
I really don't understand the hate for possibly the best athlete in the NFL. I mean, I am a die-hard Eli Manning fan, possibly on the complete opposite spectrum in terms of quarterback style but I realize the enormous impact that Vick has on his team and in games. Sweet, he doesn't pass for 300 yards but instead he passes for 200 with 70 yards rushing and a Win at the end of the day. Hey, if you cut off all of those rushing yards and only saw the 200 passing and the win then you'd have Ben Roethlisberger.......but of course when Ben does it, he must be idolized, but when Vick does it the critics complain that he cant beat a team with his arm. Double standard. Micheal Vick has arguably the strongest arm in the NFL and he might be the fastest. He has to work on his accuracy and he needs to read defenses better. Plus, I dont think Mora's west-coast offense is optomizing his talents. But anyway, the results and impact of Vick are undeniable. I'm not going to look up the numbers right now but I'd love to compare the Dirty Birds' W/L in the last 4 years when Vick started and when he didn't start.

He is great. He needs to be great with his arm, but he still has ALOT of time to grow

Big McLargehuge
01-14-2005, 12:16 AM
how you can say O'donnell was a bad QB is beyond me...his td-int ratio was almost 2:1 which is better than several hall of famers, you cant base it on the fact that he threw a two bad picks in the superbowl

if you want to talk bad Qb's just look a little further back and you can find the likes of Jay Schroeder and Jack Trudeau and Gary Hogeboom

He was an awful QB after that game. He was fine until then.

But still...as a Steeler fan that name alone has to make your eyes bleed.

Unholy Diver
01-14-2005, 12:19 AM
He was an awful QB after that game. He was fine until then.

But still...as a Steeler fan that name alone has to make your eyes bleed.
after leaving the Steelers he still had a few good seasons and had 52tds to 29 ints

and when I hear that name all I can think of is the highest rated QB in team history

Big McLargehuge
01-14-2005, 12:23 AM
after leaving the Steelers he still had a few good seasons and had 52tds to 29 ints

and when I hear that name all I can think of is the highest rated QB in team history

Who had the clutch ability of tootsie roll

O'Donnell was one of those guys who didn't win you games, but didn't lose you games either. Until the playoffs. Then all bets were off.

Unholy Diver
01-14-2005, 12:43 AM
Who had the clutch ability of tootsie roll

O'Donnell was one of those guys who didn't win you games, but didn't lose you games either. Until the playoffs. Then all bets were off.
lets hope that isnt the same with a certain new qb

DisplacedIslander
01-14-2005, 09:00 AM
lets hope that isnt the same with a certain new qb


You're talking about Ben, right? ;)

Unholy Diver
01-16-2005, 01:59 PM
You're talking about Ben, right? ;)
no, I thought it was obvious I was talking about Brian St Pierre :teach:

gr8haluschak
01-16-2005, 06:07 PM
Marc Bulger - in two years of the Rams being "his team" he has done squat to show he was heads and tails above Warner - He can't make good reads, he can't make those throws into double and triple coverage like Warner did and he CAN'T win when it come to the big game.

guinness
01-16-2005, 06:13 PM
hmm how come bulger can't do the same...same receivers, if anything holt is better now

Because Mike Martz always does something stupid.

Patty Ice
01-16-2005, 07:38 PM
Warren Moon?

Are you guys kidding me?

I'm glad someone showed some sign of thought and questioned the Warren Moon nomination. That man was awesome...my favorite as a kid.

Troy McClure
01-16-2005, 08:54 PM
Marc Bulger - in two years of the Rams being "his team" he has done squat to show he was heads and tails above Warner - He can't make good reads, he can't make those throws into double and triple coverage like Warner did and he CAN'T win when it come to the big game.
Let's look at yesterady. Bulger got run over a number of times, played hurt, and had his receivers drop a lot on him yesterday. He can't do it all by himself.

gr8haluschak
01-16-2005, 11:54 PM
Let's look at yesterady. Bulger got run over a number of times, played hurt, and had his receivers drop a lot on him yesterday. He can't do it all by himself.

Ohh no he got run - guess what that is playoff football if he was that much better than Warner it would not have mattered how many players were up in his face, his recivers dropped THREE PASSES, none of them actually mattered, Warner played hurt in thier Superbowl loss so that excuse does not fly.

gr8haluschak
01-16-2005, 11:55 PM
Because Mike Martz always does something stupid.

You got that right, he is on the top of the list of what coaches still have jobs, especially after the number eggs he has laid.

Fish on The Sand
01-17-2005, 03:10 AM
Because Mike Martz always does something stupid.
Warner was able to overcome that stupidity, Bulger can't.

Fish on The Sand
01-17-2005, 03:11 AM
Ohh no he got run - guess what that is playoff football if he was that much better than Warner it would not have mattered how many players were up in his face, his recivers dropped THREE PASSES, none of them actually mattered, Warner played hurt in thier Superbowl loss so that excuse does not fly.
Good point about Warner being hurt. He also played quite well too, shaky in the first, but he lead that team to what was very nearly another superbowl. Rams just aren't the same without him. With Warner they were a constant superbowl threat, with Bulger they are mediocre and inconsistant.

roast
01-17-2005, 03:38 PM
Kordell Stewart

gr8haluschak
01-19-2005, 01:20 AM
Good point about Warner being hurt. He also played quite well too, shaky in the first, but he lead that team to what was very nearly another superbowl. Rams just aren't the same without him. With Warner they were a constant superbowl threat, with Bulger they are mediocre and inconsistant.

You could see that last year in their loss to the Panthers, if Warner was at the helm when the Rams were down by three on that fourth and goal I guarentee that Martz would have gone for it. He threw great passes into mostly double or triple coverage and that is somthing that Bulger CAN'T do.

Oilers Chick
01-19-2005, 04:47 PM
Jeff George is a good call.

How about Todd Marinovich and Heath Shuler?

GoM
01-19-2005, 04:51 PM
Jeff George

First name to come to mind for me

Dr Love
01-19-2005, 04:53 PM
You could see that last year in their loss to the Panthers, if Warner was at the helm when the Rams were down by three on that fourth and goal I guarentee that Martz would have gone for it. He threw great passes into mostly double or triple coverage and that is somthing that Bulger CAN'T do.If Warner was playing that game, it would have never been tied at the end of regulation, the Rams would have gotten spanked. Warner would have fumbled the ball away and gotten sacked a good deal.

And you're forgetting this is Bulger's first year as the starter from day one, first time he's gone into camp as the #1.

gr8haluschak
01-19-2005, 05:13 PM
If Warner was playing that game, it would have never been tied at the end of regulation, the Rams would have gotten spanked. Warner would have fumbled the ball away and gotten sacked a good deal.

And you're forgetting this is Bulger's first year as the starter from day one, first time he's gone into camp as the #1.

That is too funny, he sure in the hell would not have got sacked as much as Bulger because he has the brains to throw the ball away, and atleast he can recover the fumbles unlike the pics that Bulger throws. Wow you talk about Bulger being the starter from day one, what is the point - it has been his team for two years and the team has got worse each year that is what matters.

nyr5186
01-19-2005, 05:16 PM
Here's another name to throw out...

Jeff Hostetler. Still cant believe the Giants won a Super Bowl with this guy.

1Timer
01-19-2005, 05:20 PM
I disagree with the Brunell pick. I don't think it was particularly fair for him to be compared to Steve Young, but he was a much more respectable quarterback than Dilfer, Stewart, etc.---back in the mid/late-90's.

After the knee injuries, he just kind've faded out.

I do, however, think that it's about time for him to retire.

Doug Flutie, anyone?

Dr Love
01-19-2005, 05:26 PM
That is too funny, he sure in the hell would not have got sacked as much as Bulger because he has the brains to throw the ball away, and atleast he can recover the fumbles unlike the pics that Bulger throws.
Did you miss Kurt Warner v. 2002 and the reason he was benched in 2003? It was because he held on to the ball too long, took too many sacks, and fumbled the ball. Which is just about the polar opposite of what you just said.

Wow you talk about Bulger being the starter from day one, what is the point - it has been his team for two years and the team has got worse each year that is what matters.
The point is that he didn't have a full year last year, which absolutely makes a difference. Look at his improvement this year with bascially the same offense. Think going through camp help any? The team not being as good this year wasn't because of Bulger. He threw less INTs, more yards, 1 fewer TD but in 1 fewer game, had a better QB rating, better completion percentage, Holt and Bruce were both top 5 in yards... Martz doesn't run nearly enough and the defense was ****, it wasn't Marc Bulger playing like crap.

Hockeyfan02
01-19-2005, 05:33 PM
That is too funny, he sure in the hell would not have got sacked as much as Bulger because he has the brains to throw the ball away

Are we talking about the same Kurt Warner? Have you seen the guy play lately? He holds on to the ball forever, he doesnt throw it away.

Hasbro
01-20-2005, 11:10 PM
How about Jay Schreoder?

Red Ass Rich Gannon, berates teammates and coaches and tossed five INTs in a Super Bowl.

Unholy Diver
01-20-2005, 11:28 PM
Bubby Brister