My own Havlat proposal (improved version):

With everybody seemingly fascinated by quantity for quality trades, especially those involving Havlat, here’s another go:

Ottawa: Dany Heatley
Atlanta: Martin Havlat, Todd White, Karel Rachunek, 1st

Dan Heatley: The real thing
Martin Havlat: Rising star
Todd White: Undersized but skilled and good defensively
Karel Rachunek: #2 to #3 D
1st round pick: Worth?

The Sens get the best player, a force for many years, while Altanta fills in gaps and gets a star player back. Quantity for Quality.

* quacks *

wait, that's supposed to be

* ducks *

I think you overpay big time for Heatley, just trade him for prospects and picks.

that'd be a pretty ballsy move by Waddell, but one can see how it might pay off.

How long is White signed for, maybe ATL would want a guy like Vermette instead?

if you're gonna trade Heatley, that's the way to do it. but at this point, the Thrashers have no reason to, and they'd move Kovalchuk for that package much sooner than they move Heatley.

if you're gonna trade Heatley, that's the way to do it. but at this point, the Thrashers have no reason to, and they'd move Kovalchuk for that package much sooner than they move Heatley.

Heatley's value is at an all-time high right now, and there are still many people that expect Kovulchuk to exceed him. If Atlanta management did believe this, it is possible that they would deal Heatley for a package and build around Kovalchuk. However, I don't think they are in that belief, and I don't blame them either, although, I don't think either player (Kovo or Heatley) is a lock to be better than the other. I don't expect his name to be put on the auction time any time soon, but in the meantime, it makes for some pretty interesting conversation.

If Atlanta did decide to deal him, nearly every team would express interest. A package like this from Ottawa would be attractive, and could win out, but I see some other teams putting some damn good packages together as well.

As a deal from Ottawa's perspective, this would actually still leave us a stronger team overall, which is pretty hard to do when you trade for a guy Heatley's age and upside. Our defence would be a little weaker, but still manageable. Our offence would be spectacular though.

From Atlanta's perspective, I think they would want a better defencemen that Rachunek. I think Rachunek is under-rated on these boards, but still, I don't think he's the guy that Atlanta would be looking for. I think they would want a guy who has a higher upside, along the lines of a #1 defencemen (i.e. top 10 in the league potential). I actually think Volchenkov is a guy that would be more suitable. Although farther away from his peak, he carries more upside than Rachunek.

Heatley would be a good addition, but Ottawa already has two RWs. Heatley would have to move to the LW, but if he did, the trade would work. His numbers would skyrocket with Hossa and Bonk. But, seeing as he likely would stay on the right wing, Ottawa would probably want Kovalchuk instead.

And if they pulled that off, Ottawa would own both of the first two picks in 2001. And, neither pick was originally theirs.

I dont think Heatley is moved no matter the young talent coming back. Its nto really a smart buisness move. Heatley is the name in Atlanta, they are trying to get more fans there and trading thier most recognizable player for a small group that most of the Atlatn afans (that are on teh edge from liking hocke and not likeing it) have no clue about will just set them back.

Heatley won't be traded... a Havlat/Volchenkov package would be interesting though.

Spezza/Heatley/Hossa would be sick.

no way would Atlanta trade heatley for Havlat. The only way Ottawa would get Heatley is


Ottawa
Heatley

Atlanta
Hossa

no way would Atlanta trade heatley for Havlat. The only way Ottawa would get Heatley is


Ottawa
Heatley

Atlanta
Hossa

i don't see how this is any better for atlanta than havlat, white and rachunek for heatley

Heatley is a superstar player, havlat has not accomplished as much as heatley. Havlat is an offensive player who could become one hell of a player. But Heatley is already a power forward and is the same age as Havlat. Why would you trade a player who has potential to be good for a player that is already one of the top players in the league? You can add more players that may be good one day but WHY would atlanta trade away their most notable player? Especially for young unproven players? And on top of that Havlat is a holdout!!!

Heatley is a superstar player, havlat has not accomplished as much as heatley. Havlat is an offensive player who could become one hell of a player. But Heatley is already a power forward and is the same age as Havlat. Why would you trade a player who has potential to be good for a player that is already one of the top players in the league? You can add more players that may be good one day but WHY would atlanta trade away their most notable player? Especially for young unproven players? And on top of that Havlat is a holdout!!!

As a senators fan, i would say the difference in value between Hossa & Havlat is not as big as karel rachunek and todd white, that is why i was puzzled. If you don't like one, you shoulnd't like the other. At least in my opinion.

As a senators fan, i would say the difference in value between Hossa & Havlat is not as big as karel rachunek and todd white, that is why i was puzzled. If you don't like one, you shoulnd't like the other. At least in my opinion.


When you are trading a holdout or salary cut you don't get back fair value. So even if the HAvlat package for HEatley was fair value Atlanta wouldn't do it. Havlat's value is not high right now because of the contract situation, same thing for comrie. If you were making a trade for a holdout would you offer fair value? I know i wouldn't

If I was trading a young marque player who has no problems(playing bad, holdout, contract,etc.) I would want a marque player back. That is why i suggested Hossa for Heatley.

This trade could fill the need for both teams, with Havlat somewhat replacing Heatley, White being Atlanta's 2nd line center and Rachunek being their #1 or #2 defenseman. Atlanta would fill 2 gaps without causing a major one, but they shouldn't deal away a top star like Heatley, there just aren't many of them around.

no way would Atlanta trade heatley for Havlat. The only way Ottawa would get Heatley is


Ottawa
Heatley

Atlanta
Hossa

I wouldnt trade heatley for Hossa. I would trade Heatley for Havlat, White, and Rachunek

When you are trading a holdout or salary cut you don't get back fair value. So even if the HAvlat package for HEatley was fair value Atlanta wouldn't do it. Havlat's value is not high right now because of the contract situation, same thing for comrie. If you were making a trade for a holdout would you offer fair value? I know i wouldn't

If I was trading a young marque player who has no problems(playing bad, holdout, contract,etc.) I would want a marque player back. That is why i suggested Hossa for Heatley.

IF Ottawa 100% capitulated, Havlat would make 2.1 mil next year. That isn't an excessive amount to spend for a guy of Havlat's ability.

Holdouts looking for HUGE salaries have their value go down, BECAUSE of the Salary, but Havlat, won't get a huge salary no matter what you do, so its no big deal.

Regarding the original offer.......

It is a great package for Atlanta to consider, given the quality of players coming to them. However, if I'm Waddell, I ask for nothing short of Marian Hossa. Not only does Heatley hold more value, but this sort of deal puts Waddell in the driver's seat, and gives him the chance to pretty much command what he wants. Don't get me wrong; Havlat would be great, but I'd re-work it to get Hossa instead.

Regarding the original offer.......

It is a great package for Atlanta to consider, given the quality of players coming to them. However, if I'm Waddell, I ask for nothing short of Marian Hossa. Not only does Heatley hold more value, but this sort of deal puts Waddell in the driver's seat, and gives him the chance to pretty much command what he wants. Don't get me wrong; Havlat would be great, but I'd re-work it to get Hossa instead.



Totally agree

IF Ottawa 100% capitulated, Havlat would make 2.1 mil next year. That isn't an excessive amount to spend for a guy of Havlat's ability.

Holdouts looking for HUGE salaries have their value go down, BECAUSE of the Salary, but Havlat, won't get a huge salary no matter what you do, so its no big deal.

It doesn't matter if he's holding out for one million or two, he is STILL holding out so it gives atlanta the bargaining power not Ottawa. Again Why would atlanta trade Heatley?

I wouldnt trade heatley for Hossa. I would trade Heatley for Havlat, White, and Rachunek


Would you trade forsborg for Havlat, White, and Rachunek?

Again Why would atlanta trade Heatley?

I proposed in this thread not because I thought there was any chance of Havlat or Heatley being traded, but to show three things:

1) Heatley has incredible trading value, (although we will never find out as he will not be traded),
2) The Sens are better at the quality end of a trade, than the quantity end - in particular the Sens can afford to give up 3 starters and a 1st for one player - so stop trying to give the Sens the quantity/package end!,
3) For the quantity end to be considered, it must have players of potential - I thought this would be an interesting value exchange to consider.

However though the proposal may be interesting, it will never happen, as Atlanta will not trade Heatley (short of finding out something terribly bad about him/her), and the Sens will not trade Havlat until he signs on the Sens terms (or plays in Europe for a number of years).

Would you trade forsborg for Havlat, White, and Rachunek?

The Avs wouldn't beneifit from a 3 for 1 deal like the Thrashers would. I think this is a great proposal, although I would suggest to Sens fans to go for Kovalchuk rather than Heatly as Ilya is a natural lw, falls just short of being a powerforward, and is probably not as closely held as Heatly.

Kovalchuk-Spezza-Hossa
Shastlivy-Bonk-Alfredsson.

:bow:

The Avs wouldn't beneifit from a 3 for 1 deal like the Thrashers would. I think this is a great proposal, although I would suggest to Sens fans to go for Kovalchuk rather than Heatly as Ilya is a natural rw, falls just short of being a powerforward, and is probably not as closely held as Heatly.

Kovalchuk-Spezza-Hossa
Shastlivy-Bonk-Alfredsson.

:bow:
I agree

I proposed in this thread not because I thought there was any chance of Havlat or Heatley being traded, but to show three things:

1) Heatley has incredible trading value, (although we will never find out as he will not be traded),
2) The Sens are better at the quality end of a trade, than the quantity end - in particular the Sens can afford to give up 3 starters and a 1st for one player - so stop trying to give the Sens the quantity/package end!,
3) For the quantity end to be considered, it must have players of potential - I thought this would be an interesting value exchange to consider.

However though the proposal may be interesting, it will never happen, as Atlanta will not trade Heatley (short of finding out something terribly bad about him/her), and the Sens will not trade Havlat until he signs on the Sens terms (or plays in Europe for a number of years).


the sens are giving 3 players and getting one, and your telling me to stop giving the sens the quantity package end? Then your telling me in order for the quanity package/end to be considered it mush have players of potential. So why would you trade quality for quantity/potential

The Avs wouldn't beneifit from a 3 for 1 deal like the Thrashers would. I think this is a great proposal, although I would suggest to Sens fans to go for Kovalchuk rather than Heatly as Ilya is a natural rw, falls just short of being a powerforward, and is probably not as closely held as Heatly.

Kovalchuk-Spezza-Hossa
Shastlivy-Bonk-Alfredsson.

:bow:

I'm guessing you mean natural LW. But I agree with your reasoning if that's the case.

the sens are giving 3 players and getting one, and your telling me to stop giving the sens the quantity package end? Then your telling me in order for the quanity package/end to be considered it mush have players of potential. So why would you trade quality for quantity/potential

In this thread, the Sens trade quantity (3 players and a pick) for quality (1 young superstar). In many other proposals (in other threads) the Sens are instead offered quantity (2 or more players, picks) for one of their players (quality). This doesn't work, as the Sens at this time don't need more players, just better ones. So:

"the sens are giving 3 players and getting one, and you're telling me to stop giving the sens the quantity package end?" - yes, in other proposals, not in this thread.

"Then you're telling me in order for the quantity package/end to be considered it must have players of potential." - this was discussed in a recent (last few weeks) thread about quality/quantity deals - for the quantity end to be accepted it seems it needed players of some potential, not just players who have already reached their maximum.

"So why would you trade quality for quantity/potential?" - for the Sens at this time, we should trade quantity/potential for quality return, to get a better player, if we make any substantial deal at all this year. Btw it would seem the Canucks are in a similar spot from postings on this board, wanting to trade a package for a top six forward.

If and when Heatly becomes the go to guy in atlanta,, will Kovo be able to thrive in a situation like that? Im not knocking Kovo, he'll go the distance for a scoring opportunity, but it seems like he has me first attitude rather than a team first

ATL could trade Heatly b/c of having such a dynamic player in Kovo and the players aquired in the trade could really balance out the team...but I see Kovo getting traded before heatly does

I really dont know a whole helluva alot be either teams depth so sorry if im way off this on trade...what about a combination of spezza and rachunek

I'm guessing you mean natural LW. But I agree with your reasoning if that's the case.

yeah, typo. I meant lw.

I would personally pass on this deal. The primary strength of the senators was heir incredibe depth. There is no reason to screw up the chemistry to maybe improve the team. The offense wouldn't necceairly be better. Say Heatly scores 15-20 more points than Havlat, Todd White is a lock to score 30 more points than Van Allen at least. How in the world does that improve Ottawa's offense - let alone the fact that they lose a good offensive defenseman in Rachunek??

Volch, it's Heatley we're talking about here. One of the top young CANADIAN stars in the game today. The Sens could rent a UFA defenceman with the money they make from selling #15 Sens jerseys alone.

Other Dave

If I'm Waddell, I offer the Russian and ask for Havlat, Volchenkov and White. Ottawa can keep the first rounder that could very well end up being last in the round anyway if the Sens get Ilya Kovalchuk on their first line.

If I'm Waddell, I offer the Russian and ask for Havlat, Volchenkov and White.

No deal from Ottawa's perspective. Heatley and Kovalchuk aren't interchangeable IMO.

Edit: Neither are Rachunek and Volchenkov!

Other Dave

If I'm Waddell, I offer the Russian and ask for Havlat, Volchenkov and White. Ottawa can keep the first rounder that could very well end up being last in the round anyway if the Sens get Ilya Kovalchuk on their first line.

No way would Ottawa do that. Havlat, White, and Rachunek is already plenty. When Atlanta is getting that kind of young talent in return for Ilya, I don't think that the other team should have to overpay.

Volch, it's Heatley we're talking about here. One of the top young CANADIAN stars in the game today. The Sens could rent a UFA defenceman with the money they make from selling #15 Sens jerseys alone.

Other Dave

Its simple math.

Heatley - Havlat = At most 30 points.
White - Van Allen = At least 30 points.

Even if you wanted to say that it would add maybe 5 points to the team it sure as hell isn't worth Rachunek. While I agree that's what it would take to get Dany Heatley - it doesn't make the sens a better team.

I wouldnt trade heatley for Hossa. I would trade Heatley for Havlat, White, and Rachunek

And a 1st too i think. Geez that is teh sort of trade that can make a franchise(atlanta). The lindros trade comes to mind. Colorado built a franchise out of that trade. Atlanta wouldn't even blink if that package was put on the table. Heatley is a truly great player, but he is only one player and those 3(white, Rachunek, havlat) and the 1st would move Atlanta 2 years forward in terms of team development. Ott's line up would be downright scary though and heatley is very young.

Yes i have to say this is a truly great proposal. I look at it from both side and see great value. Yup i could see this go down

I would personally pass on this deal. The primary strength of the senators was heir incredibe depth. There is no reason to screw up the chemistry to maybe improve the team. The offense wouldn't necceairly be better. Say Heatly scores 15-20 more points than Havlat, Todd White is a lock to score 30 more points than Van Allen at least. How in the world does that improve Ottawa's offense - let alone the fact that they lose a good offensive defenseman in Rachunek??


No way does heatley get only 15-20 more than havlat. More like 30.

The funny thing about this proposal is that healtey is a rw and the sens are already flush there, so in my mind a better solution would be.

Havlat and Rachunek and a 1st for Kovachuk.

Kovachuk is worth less than heatley and is a big Lw who would really fill a need.

No way does heatley get only 15-20 more than havlat. More like 30.

The funny thing about this proposal is that healtey is a rw and the sens are already flush there, so in my mind a better solution would be.

Havlat and Rachunek and a 1st for Kovachuk.

Kovachuk is worth less than heatley and is a big Lw who would really fill a need.

Alfie is a UFA after this year (assuming current CBA applies), so if the Sens trade Havlat, after next year Neil is the #2 RW. Of course Varada could shift back to RW and Laich could be a #3 RW in 1 to 3 years. So not as flush as one might think.

McKeens forecasts a signed Havlat gets 31 goals, 70 points - Heatley 43 goals, 100 points. Sports forecaster Havlat 36 goals, 80 points - Heatley 38 goals, 99 points.

Alfie is a UFA after this year (assuming current CBA applies), so if the Sens trade Havlat, after next year Neil is the #2 RW. Of course Varada could shift back to RW and Laich could be a #3 RW in 1 to 3 years. So not as flush as one might think.

McKeens forecasts a signed Havlat gets 31 goals, 70 points - Heatley 43 goals, 100 points. Sports forecaster Havlat 36 goals, 80 points - Heatley 38 goals, 99 points.

Just to reiterate chayos1 - even if heatley gets 30 points more than havlat, white will most likely get 30 more points than his replacement van allen, so how does that help the sens??