Horton / Stewart ?

Mogo
09-21-2003, 12:37 PM
I think Stewart could stick because he wont depend as much money as Horton would.. Duds has said he wont offer Horton those big bonuses to picks have gotten in recent years.

pb1300
09-21-2003, 01:11 PM
I dont see Stewart staying. I dont see him being NHL ready mentally. Horton on the other hand is ready for the NHL IMO, and if they can come up with a contract, then I think he can be a contributor on this team.

Dave D
09-21-2003, 01:34 PM
I don't think the contract will be a problem, I think the owner/coach/GM wanted to be sure he could contribute right away, before they started giving out money. No doubt any questions on his ability have been answered. Keenan loves Horton and Stewart for that matter, I think both will be signed close to start of the regular season. I think it is clear that another year of Junior would be a step backwards for both these kids, particularly Horton IMO.

Coolburn
09-21-2003, 01:53 PM
I think Stewart would benefit moreso going back to Juniors. It wouldn't hurt Horton to go back to juniors and it makes more sense to not sign either of them as they would fall under the next CBA. It doesn't seem like either needs to adjust to the physicality (and mental part in Horton's case) of the game. While I'd like to see Horton on the team, I don't know how much he'd benefit from just playing 12-15 mins a nite in the NHL.

Clash*
09-21-2003, 02:23 PM
I think Stewart would benefit moreso going back to Juniors. It wouldn't hurt Horton to go back to juniors and it makes more sense to not sign either of them as they would fall under the next CBA. It doesn't seem like either needs to adjust to the physicality (and mental part in Horton's case) of the game. While I'd like to see Horton on the team, I don't know how much he'd benefit from just playing 12-15 mins a nite in the NHL.
I'm in total agreement with Rich on this. Horton's ice time will be limited, especially if the line of Huselius-Cullen-Bure performs like it has so far.Horton won't see the ice time, when the time matters in the regular season, with guys like Hoglund and Nilson available for the first line, and the second line clicking. Especially with the CBA comin up, I'd expect not a single draft pick from this year to be signed.

DR. Holiday
09-21-2003, 03:10 PM
I'm in total agreement with Rich on this. Horton's ice time will be limited, especially if the line of Huselius-Cullen-Bure performs like it has so far.Horton won't see the ice time, when the time matters in the regular season, with guys like Hoglund and Nilson available for the first line, and the second line clicking. Especially with the CBA comin up, I'd expect not a single draft pick from this year to be signed.

Well Zherdev and Michalek have already signed as have some later round picks.so that blows that theory.

Clash*
09-21-2003, 06:24 PM
Well Zherdev and Michalek have already signed as have some later round picks.so that blows that theory.
Florida's picks. I'm not talkin about other teams, as I don't care what they really do with their prospects. The Panthers have 39 contracts up after next season out of a possible 50, and they don't even have 50 contracts presently. The Panthers evidently don't want to owe out money during a lockout, thus I don't see anyone, with the exception of Kadlec who doesn't get paid if he goes back to Europe, bein signed from our draft this year. Didn't realize what another team does dictates what the Panthers do.

Dave D
09-22-2003, 02:54 AM
Today's Sun Sentinel says it all, Keenan loves these two guys and I would expect Keenan to get what he wants. Look for both these kids to not only sign and make the team, but I think you'll be surprised at how much Iron Mike uses them. It would seem to me that if you got through this much trouble to sell your owner, you are not prepared to give them 4th line ice. I think it is clear that both kids will be signed to play.

Coolburn
09-22-2003, 03:23 AM
Today's Sun Sentinel says it all, Keenan loves these two guys and I would expect Keenan to get what he wants. Look for both these kids to not only sign and make the team, but I think you'll be surprised at how much Iron Mike uses them. It would seem to me that if you got through this much trouble to sell your owner, you are not prepared to give them 4th line ice. I think it is clear that both kids will be signed to play.And yet you have this quote which doesn't help the cause: If the Panthers wait to sign them, they would slide into the next collective bargaining agreement.

Dudley is using that as leverage because bonus structure is the major obstacle in negotiations.

Cohen is all for Dudley's being fiscally responsible, but this sensitive issue could create the first rift of the season between Keenan and Dudley if economics determine whether Horton and Stewart make the teamThe other factor they should use is how the fans will perceive this. As it is, the fans aren't coming out in droves and these 2 young guns could help to put butts in the seats. But by them making the team, several players would most likely be traded and/or waived. Of note from another article in the Sun-Sentinel, Hagman and Novo are obvious candidates to be moved in some fashion. But this I didnt know about and found interesting:Hagman could be traded. There is a clause in his contract that would allow him to return to Finland if he doesn't make the team.Novo would probably clear waivers, Weiss is probably going to end up in the AHL as well this season, and Bednar is going to enjoy his view from the press box every nite. The question becomes whether Nedorost will be ready to play 3rd line center. If not immediately, then Horton takes his spot until he is ready and then Ritchie (or whoever plays 4th line C) gets demoted/waived/whatever and Horton slides down to 4th line and plays PK and some PP (but again, probably around 12-15 mins/game at most).

wint
09-22-2003, 09:46 AM
There is NO reason to rush these guys. The Panthers already have too many guys on offense. Neither player has dominated the OHL yet. And if a little extra time gaining confidence and fine tuning is good enough for Spezza, Heatley, etc, then it's good enough for Horton and Stewart.

Captain8
09-22-2003, 11:46 AM
There is NO reason to rush these guys. The Panthers already have too many guys on offense. Neither player has dominated the OHL yet. And if a little extra time gaining confidence and fine tuning is good enough for Spezza, Heatley, etc, then it's good enough for Horton and Stewart.

Agreed. And worse is the idea both seem to have adopted -- that the team has enough Euro skill; that their own job is taking the body and providing the physical part.

The reality is that these are highly touted first round picks that are expected to provide much more (long-term) than mere physical play. Anyway, their reputation for being physical players is probably secure. It's their ability to be dominant offensive players that is in question. Ultimately, while Keenan and Dudley rave about them being physically ready, their skill and sense should be the litmus test of readiness for the NHL.

Of course, Keenan's fingerprints are all over the selection process and the opportunities he affords each player. It's no surprise that Stewart and Horton are showing well in an overcrowded camp that resembles a meat grinder, whereas a player like Shvidki -- who is much more mature in the aforementioned skill/sense department, gets snubbed as Messier gets un unwarranted tryout on the first line.

In the Horton/Stewart scenario and its ripple effect (as with the Weiss situation last year) the lack of cohesion in the organization may be resurfacing yet again. We'll see what happens when push comes to shove. Will Keenan's desire to advance Horton and Stewart while excluding others subvert Dudley's fiscal concerns and a more prudent approach to team building?

Chaos2k7
09-22-2003, 12:05 PM
Agreed. And worse is the idea both seem to have adopted -- that the team has enough Euro skill; that their own job is taking the body and providing the physical part.

The reality is that these are highly touted first round picks that are expected to provide much more (long-term) than mere physical play. Anyway, their reputation for being physical players is probably secure. It's their ability to be dominant offensive players that is in question. Ultimately, while Keenan and Dudley rave about them being physically ready, their skill and sense should be the litmus test of readiness for the NHL.

Of course, Keenan's fingerprints are all over the selection process and the opportunities he affords each player. It's no surprise that Stewart and Horton are showing well in an overcrowded camp that resembles a meat grinder, whereas a player like Shvidki -- who is much more mature in the aforementioned skill/sense department, gets snubbed as Messier gets un unwarranted tryout on the first line.

In the Horton/Stewart scenario and its ripple effect (as with the Weiss situation last year) the lack of cohesion in the organization may be resurfacing yet again. We'll see what happens when push comes to shove. Will Keenan's desire to advance Horton and Stewart while excluding others subvert Dudley's fiscal concerns and a more prudent approach to team building?


Shvidki played on a top line against Colorado... While Horton and Stewart both scored goals, playing as rookies, while a line of Hagman and Novoseltsev who (by your above standards) are much more mature in the aforementioned skill/sense department. Produced nothing and were benched. I know it doesn't take alot sometimes with Keenan, but...

The best players should make the team. Period.

I was not convinced either Novoseltsev, or Shvidki were deserving last year either.

Messier was inserted at the last minute to replaced Nilson right before gametime. And as the game progressed he was moved onto every line and even back to Defense.

I have heard enough crying about no opportunities. In this game you have to create your own opportunities. And after 4 unsuccessful years and injuries and inconsistentcy it is time to let it go.

The fact that the Panthers organization thought enough of these players to pay them good money about 1 million a piece in just this past offseason is a pretty good pointer to the fact that they thought enough of them that they would both ante up and make this team.

They have both been disappointing their whole career's. Just on the brink of realizing that potential... Sad really.

What they should do is use this as motivation and tear up the AHL. Nothing would get them back to the show faster.

Fact of the matter is is that this is their few final chances.

And every organization has a same story to tell: Take Shane Willis in Tampa.

Go ask a Tampa fan that story... Real similar....

Pavel Brendl, Rico Fata etc. REAL SIMILAR...

:teach:

sting_fan
09-22-2003, 12:06 PM
I can't believe what I'm reading. Are you basing the performance of Shvidki, Hagman, Novoseltsev, Stewart and Horton on one game? One game that you most likely never saw, or never heard?

This is scary.

Chaos2k7
09-22-2003, 12:08 PM
Not to mention that another similar winger in camp and another Keenan whipping boy has come to camp and impressed in that same game too...

The name?

Jaroslav Bednar....

Explain that?

:dunno:

Keenan had this guy labeled last year as soft but is complimenting him now... Same for Bure, Cullen, Huselius...

Seems the way to make this team is to work hard and dedicate yourself to improving...

And we still wonder why the likes of Shvidki and Novoseltsev are odd-men out...

:rolly:

PanthersRule96
09-22-2003, 12:08 PM
Aside from boosting his confidence, Horton has nothing left to do in the O. He is big enough to play in the big league and is certainly a very intelligent player who uses his head and every other assett to his full advantage. Judging by how he played against Carolina, I would expect that if he stuck, he would score around 15-20 goals in only his first year as I was EXTREMELY impressed with him. Personally I think that they should have a first line of Horton, Jokinen and Kozlov. Horton, according to my count did not win either of his 2 faceoffs on friday, but is supposedly a good center. I wonder if Moving Olli to wing with Kozlov on the other side and Horton as the center would be a good combo. He looked amaizing on the Power play and hit everyone which I think gives him as good a chance as any to make the roster. VanRyn will also push someone out.

ED, as far as Kolnik goes, he fell victim to the numbers game according to Dudley but I think its all BS. Hypothetically speaking If Kolnik beat out freaking Jokinen for a spot beyond any doubt, than he should be given a spot. Shvidki never got his chance, but OTOH, they will not let him go for nothing so he may be on the roster on 10/9. This may have been one of Keenans motivational techniques and sent Shvidki because they were in SA anyway to work hard to try and impress the big club.
Stewart played well but is just a notch below Horton. He is fast like crazy though and hits hard. He also drove to the net more than Horton.

PanthersRule96
09-22-2003, 12:12 PM
Shvidki played on a top line against Colorado

What, OMG!!!!!, so you mean he wasn't benched from the start? :blush:

Chaos2k7
09-22-2003, 12:16 PM
I can't believe what I'm reading. Are you basing the performance of Shvidki, Hagman, Novoseltsev, Stewart and Horton on one game? One game that you most likely never saw, or never heard?

This is scary.


Whats scary is the fact that after four years you still expect thr Org. to just hand out top line positions to players that have produced nothing to mediocre numbers in PRO hockey...

If Horton or Stewart make the team, which is still up in the air they would not be on a top line... They have to earn it. Learning defensive resonsibility and basic hockey sense are too things that both of those players have over Shvidki and Novoseltsev...

Plus they are better suited for a lower line than those two also...

Rick Nash played third line in Columbus...

Did it hurt his development? No.

But Shvidki and Novoseltsev are skilled wingers and built for a scoring line. There is no opportunity for that right now plus neither have proven they can CONSISTENTLY put up points. Prove it in the AHL. That is my point.

Whereas Horton and Stewart have both turned up the intensity as camp keeps going and they are improving... That is not to say they are locks for opening day but at least in some form they are producing...

sting_fan
09-22-2003, 12:51 PM
I don't expect the organisation to handout spots to anyone.

BTW, Horton and Stewart aren't Rick Nash. If either make the squad, you'll find that out pretty quick.

Chaos2k7
09-22-2003, 12:58 PM
I don't expect the organisation to handout spots to anyone.

BTW, Horton and Stewart aren't Rick Nash. If either make the squad, you'll find that out pretty quick.


:rolleyes:

Horton will be pretty damn close... Count on it...

As long as you agree they got their chances then there is nothing more to say...

I hope they tear the AHL apart!!

A championship run would be the exact type of experience they need, hell every prospect needs...

Losing everyday is not fun...

BabyJagrov
09-22-2003, 01:24 PM
I don't expect the organisation to handout spots to anyone.

BTW, Horton and Stewart aren't Rick Nash. If either make the squad, you'll find that out pretty quick.

Horton is supposed to be as good as Nash ! Nash is only a better one-on-one player, that's the only thing... and also Nash dominated his draft year but he wasn't injured like Nathan !

Thunderheart
09-22-2003, 02:46 PM
Guys...good arguements! But bottom line, as a long time season ticket holder I would much rather see Horton than Novo or Shvidki on October 9... I have seen enough of Novo the last several years of getting in on goal to circle the net go back up top and never get a shot off let alone score. And if Stewart beats out Shvidki or Hagman than so be it...I want to see players who have desire and hunger to be in the NHL; I used to think that of Hagman but it gets old watching him hit the pipes when he has an open goal to shoot at....
Sorry I needed to vent...and as for Dudley wanting to save some bucks on a contract for Horton or Stewart until the new CBA then shame on him and Cohen....screw the long time supporters again; we are use to it!!
Thunderheart

Dave D
09-22-2003, 04:12 PM
Well Sting fan I agree with you Horton is not Rick Nash, Horton is better. You'll see that this year. Nash is a one way player, who doesn't show up every shift. Horton contributes every shift of every game, not necessarily offensively, but in all areas. Horton is just getting started, wait till Christmas, this kid is a player. Mike Keenan has seen and coached the very best this game has to offer, and for him to be this excited about this kid, that speaks volumes.

Coolburn
09-22-2003, 06:18 PM
The best players should make the team. Period.I disagree (in part). I think the best players should make the team so long as it doesn't affect the future plans. I think having both Stewart & Horton on this team now would affect the future adversely. I could possibly see Horton but I think it still doesn't help him or the team as much as many hope. His broken jaw made last season a question mark for him. He was dominant before but upon his return he wasn't exactly the same player. He could go back and most likely make it to the OHL playoffs and get a better taste of leading a winner. I think Stewart could work on a few things himself as well. I wish both could go to the AHL instead and play there but rules are rules.

I know I need to remind myself ALOT that this team will need a little more patience and time. This team will eventually be a top contender but I'm not willing to sacrifice the future just to put a few exciting rookies on the ice.

Clash*
09-22-2003, 06:46 PM
I disagree (in part). I think the best players should make the team so long as it doesn't affect the future plans. I think having both Stewart & Horton on this team now would affect the future adversely. I could possibly see Horton but I think it still doesn't help him or the team as much as many hope. His broken jaw made last season a question mark for him. He was dominant before but upon his return he wasn't exactly the same player. He could go back and most likely make it to the OHL playoffs and get a better taste of leading a winner. I think Stewart could work on a few things himself as well. I wish both could go to the AHL instead and play there but rules are rules.

I know I need to remind myself ALOT that this team will need a little more patience and time. This team will eventually be a top contender but I'm not willing to sacrifice the future just to put a few exciting rookies on the ice.
Sometimes I feel as if I post with an alter ego...

I agree totally with not rushin these kids into primetime spots on this roster. It didn't help Jovo, and after a great rookie season, everyone came down on him for goin through the growing pains. now he's a top five or ten defenseman in the league, and we really have nothin but Novak to show for it. I'd rather these kids play another season of juniors and then take a shot at the NHL. I don't want to rush things in front of a "Win now or leave" Florida fanbase.

pb1300
09-22-2003, 07:33 PM
Im tired of seeing this team get outmuscled every night, and Im tired of seeing all the same finese players on this team. Horton needs to stay here. He brings something this team had very little of, grit and intensity. True he is very young, but his game is ready physically, and playing him now in the NHL will help his mental game a lot.

Chaos2k7
09-22-2003, 07:45 PM
Im tired of seeing this team get outmuscled every night, and Im tired of seeing all the same finese players on this team. Horton needs to stay here. He brings something this team had very little of, grit and intensity. True he is very young, but his game is ready physically, and playing him now in the NHL will help his mental game a lot.


This is the perfect way to bring him in. In my opinion he comes in and can fill a role that he is not expected to lead the team in scoring. Just play responsible and Keenan will get him the time.

But he still has a few guys to beat out.

Here's hoping he can do it...

:yo:

Coolburn
09-23-2003, 03:18 AM
This is the perfect way to bring him in. In my opinion he comes in and can fill a role that he is not expected to lead the team in scoring. Just play responsible and Keenan will get him the time. You know something similar was done with Jokinen when he came in the league. He was a big body and while he wasn't expected the lead the team in scoring, the expectation was still there to score. I don't think it would benefit Horton that much to just play a physical role and not be expected to score. As it is, most powerforwards take a while to develop fully. I just don't want to turn 2 potential powerforwards into just 3rd liners because they're not expected to lead the team in scoring. Give them one more yr of juniors...Horton and Stewart still have things to prove there.

As for the thinking that the Cat lack grit, Samuelsson was brought in for his grit...with Hoglund looking to play on the top line, Nilson has plenty of grit. The 2nd line has shown their speed can help overcome that they're not as gritty (but Cullen has bulked up to help that as well). The defense seems to have gotten a little better in that dept as well (Jay bulking up, Mezei back, Van Ryn finding his physical side again, & bringing Odelein in). So why are you (pb1300) worried about grit if these 2 rookies don't make the team again??

But I can see how the season ticket holder wants these kids on the ice. And I could see why it would piss them off to not sign these 2 but remember this just isn't a sports team, its the business of a professional sports team. I know from my college education that the way the NHL is losing money, it can't be sustained much longer. Signing rookies to crazy contracts with huge bonuses help cause this problem (thanks to the Bruins owner). Now, if the ODC was getting sold out more often and there were more season ticket holders, then I could see spending the extra money on these 2. But its not like our franchise is in the black...they've lost money every yr for the last couple of seasons. You can only sustain those kind of losses for so long then it will turn to bankruptcy (or the sale of the team, which ultimately leads to a dismantling).

BabyJagrov
09-23-2003, 05:29 AM
You know something similar was done with Jokinen when he came in the league. He was a big body and while he wasn't expected the lead the team in scoring, the expectation was still there to score. I don't think it would benefit Horton that much to just play a physical role and not be expected to score. As it is, most powerforwards take a while to develop fully. I just don't want to turn 2 potential powerforwards into just 3rd liners because they're not expected to lead the team in scoring. Give them one more yr of juniors...Horton and Stewart still have things to prove there.

As for the thinking that the Cat lack grit, Samuelsson was brought in for his grit...with Hoglund looking to play on the top line, Nilson has plenty of grit. The 2nd line has shown their speed can help overcome that they're not as gritty (but Cullen has bulked up to help that as well). The defense seems to have gotten a little better in that dept as well (Jay bulking up, Mezei back, Van Ryn finding his physical side again, & bringing Odelein in). So why are you (pb1300) worried about grit if these 2 rookies don't make the team again??

But I can see how the season ticket holder wants these kids on the ice. And I could see why it would piss them off to not sign these 2 but remember this just isn't a sports team, its the business of a professional sports team. I know from my college education that the way the NHL is losing money, it can't be sustained much longer. Signing rookies to crazy contracts with huge bonuses help cause this problem (thanks to the Bruins owner). Now, if the ODC was getting sold out more often and there were more season ticket holders, then I could see spending the extra money on these 2. But its not like our franchise is in the black...they've lost money every yr for the last couple of seasons. You can only sustain those kind of losses for so long then it will turn to bankruptcy (or the sale of the team, which ultimately leads to a dismantling).

Joe Thornton played at the age of 18 year-old in the NHL and he finished the year with 3 goals and 4 assists...
I think he turned out pretty well after being coached by Mike Keenan !

Keep Horton up, he is the real deal and he'll make this team better now and in the future !

Dave D
09-23-2003, 05:31 AM
Well said Havlat!

Acadmus
09-23-2003, 06:20 AM
Well said Havlat!

Well, sort of...he was well coached by Pat Burns, first. Burns coached him through three progressively improving years until he was fired, and Thornton levelled out. He picked up again under Keenan, but Keenan only coached him for part of a season.

Kind of why, prior to Keenan being hired, I was hoping the Panthers would hire Burns. I'm still willing to give Keenan a chance, though, since he's done well with some players in one and a half seasons, and I really don't think it's a good idea for an organization to keep turning over its coaching staff. As long as Keenan can mellow out without becoming too permissive (i.e. find the balance between harsh and soft), he could still be a great coach. And two guys like Horton and Stewart who are his kind of players will really benefit from being coached by him.

PanthersRule96
09-23-2003, 10:44 AM
When the panthers drafted Horton, I thought they made a huge mistake, but when I saw him play for the first time, I was amaized at how hw handled the NHL pace against Carolina. You all will love him when you see him Oct 9th and he is a hard working physical player with great speed and finess. A lot like Joe THorton.

Acadmus
09-23-2003, 10:59 AM
When the panthers drafted Horton, I thought they made a huge mistake, but when I saw him play for the first time, I was amaized at how hw handled the NHL pace against Carolina. You all will love him when you see him Oct 9th and he is a hard working physical player with great speed and finess. A lot like Joe THorton.

IF we see him October 9...let's face facts, no matter how much he likely deserves to be in the NHL, he may become a victim of NHL business-side politics.

Clash*
09-23-2003, 12:29 PM
Patience is a virtue. Something most South Florida sports fans don't have. I wonder how many of you were down on Jovo for his growin pains, before his trade, because he didn't have the same type of year as his rookie year. Let these kids grow up before placin the burden of expectation on them. They have talent, yes, but neither of them were thought to be of the level of player that Bouwmeester is or Ovechkin or Crosby are bein hyped to be. Neither are thought of as franchise players. What are you goin to do if Horton gets into a situation that's a lil too big for his 18 yr old rookie britches and ends up havin the back end of the season, like he had in juniors after Stewart broke his jaw? This is why he needs to go back to juniors. He needs to show that something of that nature won't affect him while in the NHL. Have some patience, cause this team is still incredibly young, and let them develop. Don't rush them into things they're not ready for at their age. There's a lot of things, off the ice, that could go wrong and screw these kids up at their ages. Believe me, I drank with Jovo and Rhett a few times too many at Gatsby's in Boca.

Heimy
09-23-2003, 01:08 PM
Patience is a virtue. Something most South Florida sports fans don't have. I wonder how many of you were down on Jovo for his growin pains, before his trade, because he didn't have the same type of year as his rookie year. Let these kids grow up before placin the burden of expectation on them. They have talent, yes, but neither of them were thought to be of the level of player that Bouwmeester is or Ovechkin or Crosby are bein hyped to be. Neither are thought of as franchise players. What are you goin to do if Horton gets into a situation that's a lil too big for his 18 yr old rookie britches and ends up havin the back end of the season, like he had in juniors after Stewart broke his jaw? This is why he needs to go back to juniors. He needs to show that something of that nature won't affect him while in the NHL. Have some patience, cause this team is still incredibly young, and let them develop. Don't rush them into things they're not ready for at their age. There's a lot of things, off the ice, that could go wrong and screw these kids up at their ages. Believe me, I drank with Jovo and Rhett a few times too many at Gatsby's in Boca.


As someone who has always preached patience allow me to say, HORSEFEATHERS! :mad:

Having seen what both these players are capable of doing NOW, imo it would be a waste of their time and Panther fans patience to return them to juniors. Oh sure, they'll continue to improve from their current level of play but it's entirely clear they can compete in this league now and should be given the opportunity...they've earned it! :bow:

btw, so has Bednar which presents another problem. He's been filling the net every chance he gets and no matter the linemates. These are *good problems* to have. :rolly:

Chaos2k7
09-23-2003, 02:13 PM
As someone who has always preached patience allow me to say, HORSEFEATHERS! :mad:

Having seen what both these players are capable of doing NOW, imo it would be a waste of their time and Panther fans patience to return them to juniors. Oh sure, they'll continue to improve from their current level of play but it's entirely clear they can compete in this league now and should be given the opportunity...they've earned it! :bow:

btw, so has Bednar which presents another problem. He's been filling the net every chance he gets and no matter the linemates. These are *good problems* to have. :rolly:


Just because some idiots were down on Jovo doesn't mean we should not bring a player in that could be ready to contribute.

That is the difference that no one else in Pro sports realizes... It takes a lot longer in hockey for these kids to be able to play. Unlike Basketball, and Football and to a lesser extent Baseball most draft picks step right into prominent roles.

Don't fool yourself... The best way to get the fans back is to play all of the BEST talent which equals the best results possible on the ice, usually... IF Horton is ready let him play.

Once all our top talent takes the next step all the "Star Gazers" will be out in force. Especially in Miami were you "Have to be seen at all the best places". Once we start winning they will come.

I want the best TEAM possible. It's all about the front of the jersey not the back. If there is someone better than the next guy they SHOULD play.

Chaos2k7
09-23-2003, 02:15 PM
Just because some idiots were down on Jovo doesn't mean we should not bring a player in that could be ready to contribute.

That is the difference that no one else in Pro sports realizes... It takes a lot longer in hockey for these kids to be able to play. Unlike Basketball, and Football and to a lesser extent Baseball most draft picks step right into prominent roles.

Don't fool yourself... The best way to get the fans back is to play all of the BEST talent which equals the best results possible on the ice, usually... IF Horton is ready let him play.

Once all our top talent takes the next step all the "Star Gazers" will be out in force. Especially in Miami were you "Have to be seen at all the best places". Once we start winning they will come.

I want the best TEAM possible. It's all about the front of the jersey not the back. If there is someone better than the next guy they SHOULD play.


The same thing applied to J-Bo, but he EARNT his spot last year by pushing others out. Either way we WILL be better this season...

:yo:

PanthersRule96
09-23-2003, 02:55 PM
You guys must realize that Keenan loves powerforwards and would much rather have Horton or Stewart over any other top prospects in the organization. Honestly, for those of us here in Florida who just come to the games to drink, watch fights and hits, Horton is tough. He can alos score and for fans who only enjoy the big hits, Horton will have no problem giving them out left and right as he ran everyone in the Car game. Keenan didn't even want Weiss to make it last year and he is now pushing for these two to make it. What do they have left to prove in junior. They are two of the biggest guys in the league and they are physically capable and definately have the skill. I can understand sending down Weiss, but Horton is totally different. The average south Florida hockey fan does not have patience. Wait till the panthers (like the Marlins) start winnning. Those fairweather fans will crawl back and start watching the games and will see Horton. He was awesome playin with Mc Donald and Mess so imagine if he played with Jokinen and Kozzie. He's just like Nilson only can do everthig better. Personally I'd like to see a line of Shvidki, Horton and Bednar together and I believe that Shvidki will be up again because he would be lost to waivers and would demand at least a 3rd rounder and he is much better that that.

sting_fan
09-23-2003, 04:12 PM
My only concern with putting Horton and/or Stewart on the roster is their confidence. No question these guy have talent, but I'd hate to see their potential take six years to pan, like a Jokinen, because they were rushed and lost confidence in theirselves and their game because of a poor season.

I don't agree with Clash and Rich that often, but in this case, they're both right on. :handclap:

Acadmus
09-24-2003, 04:03 AM
My only concern with putting Horton and/or Stewart on the roster is their confidence. No question these guy have talent, but I'd hate to see their potential take six years to pan, like a Jokinen, because they were rushed and lost confidence in theirselves and their game because of a poor season.

I don't agree with Clash and Rich that often, but in this case, they're both right on. :handclap:

There's another issue here besides whether they're being rushed into the NHL like Jovonovski. After all, like Joe Thornton was, it's possible to break a player in gently by not playing him every game his first season and definitely not playing him on the top line all the time. The other issue, though, is that Stewart and Horton would both have to return to juniors if they don't make the big club, and, from what I've heard, they've gotten all that they can out of juniors. They really need a newer, tougher challenge. Otherwise they might take a step back in development.

Captain8
09-24-2003, 07:31 AM
There's another issue here besides whether they're being rushed into the NHL like Jovonovski. After all, like Joe Thornton was, it's possible to break a player in gently by not playing him every game his first season and definitely not playing him on the top line all the time. The other issue, though, is that Stewart and Horton would both have to return to juniors if they don't make the big club, and, from what I've heard, they've gotten all that they can out of juniors. They really need a newer, tougher challenge. Otherwise they might take a step back in development.

I don't really understand the thought process behind the claim that there's nothing for the pair to learn in juniors.

Stewart barely broke the point per game mark. Seemingly he was more concerned about his weight room stats. If there's nothing more he can add to his offensive repertoire, then his upside is quite limited. If he can augment his skill set, then juniors is the appropriate place for him to do it.

Horton is a slightly different case because he does have a more polished offensive game. But his stats also suggest room for improvement. Certainly, like Stewart, he can and will physically dominate in juniors. But can he fill the net like a scorer and make his linemates better like a real playmaker? Can he fine tune his perimeter game? Can he lead his team to the Cup? I think all of these are worthwhile challenges for him. And all of these challenges only make sense in the context of spending a year in juniors, not the NHL.

I also wonder about the Thornton comparison because Thronton's junior numbers were way beyond Horton's and Stewart's reach. Only Horton's draft position merits the comparison at this point. In Stewart's case, Thornton is a non sequiter.

Acadmus
09-24-2003, 07:49 AM
I don't really understand the thought process behind the claim that there's nothing for the pair to learn in juniors.

Stewart barely broke the point per game mark. Seemingly he was more concerned about his weight room stats. If there's nothing more he can add to his offensive repertoire, then his upside is quite limited. If he can augment his skill set, then juniors is the appropriate place for him to do it.


You're being too much of a stats hound...there's reality to deal with. Horton and Stewart are both big players who have learned how to use their bodies. They're bigger than a majority of juniors players, and both, as first round picks, are amongst the elite in terms of overall skill (inasmuch as fulfilling their designated role on the ice). In the preseason games, both are showing an ability to play at a high level in, at least, an AHL game, and likely to be ready to learn at the NHL level. The NHL is where you play against bigger, faster, smarter, and more skilled hockey players. Going back to juniors they'll be going back well inside their comfort level, which hampers their ability to take a step forward. If you want to improve at something, you need to be at a level just above your comfort level, so you learn to adapt to it. For Horton and Stewart, that should be the AHL, but can't because of rules governing Junior players. As such, these two need to be in the NHL because it's the only place that gives them room for growth. Stats don't really say it all. Stewart, at barely a point-per-game mark, as you say, still is showing he's ready to take the next step, since his all-around game seems pretty solid. Horton's at a level above Stewart, so he definitely needs to be somewhere other than juniors.

Captain8
09-24-2003, 08:30 AM
You're being too much of a stats hound...there's reality to deal with. Horton and Stewart are both big players who have learned how to use their bodies. They're bigger than a majority of juniors players, and both, as first round picks, are amongst the elite in terms of overall skill (inasmuch as fulfilling their designated role on the ice). In the preseason games, both are showing an ability to play at a high level in, at least, an AHL game, and likely to be ready to learn at the NHL level. The NHL is where you play against bigger, faster, smarter, and more skilled hockey players. Going back to juniors they'll be going back well inside their comfort level, which hampers their ability to take a step forward. If you want to improve at something, you need to be at a level just above your comfort level, so you learn to adapt to it. For Horton and Stewart, that should be the AHL, but can't because of rules governing Junior players. As such, these two need to be in the NHL because it's the only place that gives them room for growth. Stats don't really say it all. Stewart, at barely a point-per-game mark, as you say, still is showing he's ready to take the next step, since his all-around game seems pretty solid. Horton's at a level above Stewart, so he definitely needs to be somewhere other than juniors.

Actually, the stats don't concern me that much. But they are an indicator of a player's skill, especially at the junior level -- where scoring opportunities present themselves often, translating into points for those who know what to do with the puck. At present, they are a better indicator than 2 preseason games.

The comfort level you refer to is not the one I'm referring to. Sure, they can apply their physical prowess and dominate. But ideally they would learn to develop other parts of their game, those outside their comfort zone. I'm not convinced that they are prepared to do that at the NHL level.

Acadmus
09-24-2003, 10:11 AM
The comfort level you refer to is not the one I'm referring to. Sure, they can apply their physical prowess and dominate. But ideally they would learn to develop other parts of their game, those outside their comfort zone. I'm not convinced that they are prepared to do that at the NHL level.

Yeah, but it seems like Keenan and Dudley are, though Dudley simply doesn't want to sell his soul to sign them to a contract. All indications are that they are ready for NHL action. It doesn't mean they'll be expected to lead the team to a Stanley Cup this year. The big problem with rushing Jovonovski and Niedermeyer to the NHL was that they were heralded as the saviors of the team by fans, and fans started to boo them and the press started to deride them when they didn't immediately turn into Wayne Gretzky and Bobby Orr. The resulting pressure caused them to try too hard, and the result was obvious. Jovo got away first and is now one of Vancouver's top d-men, and Niedermeyer, in a new role, was vital as a checking forward to Anaheim's Stanley Cup run last season. Why? They were acquired without the high expectations heaped on them when the Panthers drafted them.

Horton and Stewart have promise, but you won't hear Keenan saying they're going to turn this team into perennial contenders by themselves. They'll be broken in gradually, and will be given time to grow into their roles while others take the burden of fan expectations. Indeed, now might be the best time for Horton to come in, because everyone's looking to Olli Jokinen to be the top center, and Weiss is still viewed as a future leader. Horton has the ability to come in as quietly as a #3 overall draft pick can come in. Stewart already has less fanfare than Horton, so his entrance can be somewhat quiet, too. That will result in less pressure on them to perform at a level beyond where they are.

Captain8
09-24-2003, 11:36 AM
Yeah, but it seems like Keenan and Dudley are, though Dudley simply doesn't want to sell his soul to sign them to a contract. All indications are that they are ready for NHL action. It doesn't mean they'll be expected to lead the team to a Stanley Cup this year. The big problem with rushing Jovonovski and Niedermeyer to the NHL was that they were heralded as the saviors of the team by fans, and fans started to boo them and the press started to deride them when they didn't immediately turn into Wayne Gretzky and Bobby Orr. The resulting pressure caused them to try too hard, and the result was obvious. Jovo got away first and is now one of Vancouver's top d-men, and Niedermeyer, in a new role, was vital as a checking forward to Anaheim's Stanley Cup run last season. Why? They were acquired without the high expectations heaped on them when the Panthers drafted them.

Horton and Stewart have promise, but you won't hear Keenan saying they're going to turn this team into perennial contenders by themselves. They'll be broken in gradually, and will be given time to grow into their roles while others take the burden of fan expectations. Indeed, now might be the best time for Horton to come in, because everyone's looking to Olli Jokinen to be the top center, and Weiss is still viewed as a future leader. Horton has the ability to come in as quietly as a #3 overall draft pick can come in. Stewart already has less fanfare than Horton, so his entrance can be somewhat quiet, too. That will result in less pressure on them to perform at a level beyond where they are.

In theory, I agree about the pressure side of it. There are some veteran forwards who are expected to carry the load. But there's also a very realistic worst case scenario that may apply simply because Keenan is running things. For instance, clear out Weiss; put the Doghouse Line back in the doghouse; marginalize what remains of Novo, Hagman, and Shvidki. What are you left with? (By the same token, I would have never left Bouwmeester alone to deal with the pressure as was the case last year. I still think that no.1 minutes are too much for him at this stage, given that his puck skills haven't caught up with his skating.)

On the positive side, the presence of a hands-on pair of assistant coaches who are dedicated to teaching and drilling should help.

However, I frown upon the quotes coming from Horton and Stewart about their perceived role on the team. If they truly believe that their role is to bang bodies and offer nothing else, then someone is out to lunch.

Dave D
09-24-2003, 12:44 PM
Horton's junior stats are very comparable to Rick Nash's....I am forever hearing that Nash is a great offensive prospect - although I don't think Nash has near the offensive upside as Horton -, and Nash never had to come back from injury in the OHL. Horton was at a 2pt per game clip before injured, going back to Oshawa to pick up points to justify his offensive ability makes me think someone else is out to lunch.

Horton and Stewart for that matter know that to play consistently on Mike Keenan's team they have to play well defensively, get in on the forecheck and create offense from turnovers. In their first year, they know that most of their offensive chances will come off of good defensive play. Horton's quote of not being here to score 50 goals should not be misinterpreted to mean anything other than, he knows he can't come into Florida and play one way. Horton as all rookies in this league knows that he needs to play a well rounded game to get into as many different types of situations as possible, both offensive and defensive, not necessarily to bang bodies. Horton will likely center our 3rd line to start and at some point will go head to head against the world's best, in order to do that he has to play a well rounded game, particularly solid on the defensive end. Horton is a player, and I think by Christmas he will make Cullen - our 2nd line center expendible, that's just my take.

Captain8
09-24-2003, 01:45 PM
Horton's junior stats are very comparable to Rick Nash's....I am forever hearing that Nash is a great offensive prospect - although I don't think Nash has near the offensive upside as Horton -, and Nash never had to come back from injury in the OHL. Horton was at a 2pt per game clip before injured, going back to Oshawa to pick up points to justify his offensive ability makes me think someone else is out to lunch.

Horton and Stewart for that matter know that to play consistently on Mike Keenan's team they have to play well defensively, get in on the forecheck and create offense from turnovers. In their first year, they know that most of their offensive chances will come off of good defensive play. Horton's quote of not being here to score 50 goals should not be misinterpreted to mean anything other than, he knows he can't come into Florida and play one way. Horton as all rookies in this league knows that he needs to play a well rounded game to get into as many different types of situations as possible, both offensive and defensive, not necessarily to bang bodies. Horton will likely center our 3rd line to start and at some point will go head to head against the world's best, in order to do that he has to play a well rounded game, particularly solid on the defensive end. Horton is a player, and I think by Christmas he will make Cullen - our 2nd line center expendible, that's just my take.

I wouldn't leverage Nash to make my case for or against Horton. I think they're very similar players. And no one said anything about having Horton go back to Oshawa to justify himself. The pick was made in June; history will be the judge of its wisdom. The question is whether or not his development is better served by the NHL or by juniors.

Apparently you've tried on Horton's shoes (or skates) and decided that they fit well. :)

Crossbar
09-24-2003, 04:14 PM
IMO its better that we keep Horton and Stewart here because we have no control over how these guys are being developed in Juniors for an entire year (from what I hear Horton's Oshawa Generals coach dislikes Nathan) so for all we know we can actually be *HURTING* their developement by keeping them there and yes I know that we can just keep someone from our organization to watch over their progress like we did with Krajicek but being put in game situations and getting opprotunities are more important. If Keenan says these 2 are ready to play then who are we to argue the guy did a great job with Joe Thornton and he saw the potential Todd Bertuzzi had and traded for him and these guys are now 2 of the best powerforwards in the NHL today, keeping them here with Keenan is better than anything Juniors has to offer them. These guys don't have to be the saviors of the team just contributers so I'm definitely expecting Dudley at the very least to sign these 2 to a 10-day NHL contract like we did with Weiss before we decide anything.

Vincent Vega
09-24-2003, 05:00 PM
I think both will be sent back to the OHL for some more seasoning. I am not so sure though, they are Iron Mikes kind of players and I think he may want them in the lineup. I really dont see Hoglund performing well under Mike so that could open the door for Horton or Stewart and also if Val Bure gets injured. You guys have the luxury of having so many optoins at the forward position.

sting_fan
09-25-2003, 11:12 AM
http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp

Bob McKenzie with some insight on the situation.

Captain8
09-25-2003, 11:27 AM
http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp

Bob McKenzie with some insight on the situation.

Kind of predictable, though. It also means that Shvidki, Novo, and aren't totally out of the picture just yet.

Regardless of my stance on the issue, I gotta think that Horton and Stewart have nothing to gain by taking a hard line in the negotiations.

Rattrick
09-25-2003, 12:03 PM
http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp

Bob McKenzie with some insight on the situation.

There is also a great video on TSN.CA that includes some game footage of both players.

Crossbar
09-25-2003, 03:02 PM
I think Dudley and Horton/Stewart's agents will work something out, their agents aren't blind that they don't see how this whole CBA situation is playing out and they aren't going to let their clients just wait an entire year until the new CBA when they can be making NHL salary right now instead of juniors salary for a price everyone on both sides deems fair and close to what the new salary cap will be and they can always restructure contracts later on to fit the new CBA plan.

Clash*
09-25-2003, 04:25 PM
I'd think Bure has proven that contracts won't be restructured to benefit the new CBA or the team. Those contracts will be grandfathered in and impact a salary cap (if there is one) as they are. I don't see these kids bein signed, but as for Novo and Shvidki. With Kolnik bein recalled, and the play of Bednar at a heightened level, I'd pretty mych guarentee these two guys have seen their last Panther camp.

MoeHowardDavid
09-27-2003, 04:22 AM
http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp

Bob McKenzie with some insight on the situation.

From Strange Brew?

jaybone87
09-28-2003, 05:57 AM
I dont think there is anything left for Nathan to prove in Oshawa, the outperformed Eric Staal in the playoffs and correct me if I am wrong but had 3 game winners in the series, I think that sending him back here wouldnt benefit his game at all, the only way can see him back here in Oshawa is if a contract can't be worked out.

Crossbar
09-28-2003, 07:09 AM
Same here right now its probably all about working out bonuses and if they can't reach an agreement he and Stewart continue playing in Juniors.