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wasting time

09-22-2003, 07:27 AM

Four Games under the belt. Anyone feeling any better/worse about the defense? For me there have been no surprises as it relates to the NHL roster. The defense as I see it today is as follows:

Kaberle/MCCabe
Jackman/Berg
Marchment/Pushor
Moro/Hedin

Yikes! Not good. Barely a C grade.

Between McCabe and Marchment there are going to be so many flying ***** going around that this defense should be nicknamed “the two on one crew.”

If we had signed a guy like Hatcher as the #1 then this defense would rocket to an A- grade.

But since that’s didn’t happen…

What is possible is either a waiver draft pick up, a free agent signing, or a trade. The waiver draft may have some decent pick-ups, but it is doubtful whether they would make this defense better earning it a B- grade.

I think this defense needs someone good enough to be a #2 or #3 role, but that is only going to come via a trade, so who knows what’s available. Someone like Zhitnik would give the defense a B+ grade, in my opinion.

The other option is of course Ken Klee. This option seems more attractive to me now having seen 4 straight games by Jackman. I think he would be a great stay at home #4 guy pushing Jackman to #3 and allowing him to be more offensive. Grade: B

Agree? Disagree?

King of Kelvington

09-22-2003, 07:40 AM

wasting time

09-22-2003, 07:48 AM

I think a poor defense on paper would be alright if our coach was 'defense first orientated'.....but he isn't. Remeber the lunch pail crew we had when Burns was coaching? Rouse, Ellett, Gill and Lefebve. On paper they looked like a B-, but as the season and playoffs wore on, they drew accolades for their play.

With Quinn coaching we'd need Hatcher, Foote and Blake to contend againts Ottawa and New Jersey, the beasts of the east. Just my opinion but you cant play run and gun with whats in the cupboard. Half a dozen teams proved that last year.

Excellent point. I can't agree more. I just don't know what he is going to do to change this situation. He refuses to play the trap. He has tons of horsepower at forward, and he insists that the forwards come back to heklp the defense, which is likely to occur many times, many times not.

Leaf Army

09-22-2003, 08:05 AM

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 08:09 AM

p.l.f.

09-22-2003, 08:15 AM

theyll get somebody
likely after the cuts on saturday
they want to take a look at what theyve got first

NoamHemsky

09-22-2003, 08:32 AM

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 08:43 AM

Hamrlik is one.

Volcanologist

09-22-2003, 08:48 AM

I think that Leaf fans will be pleasantly surprised at who the team acquires in the next while for the defence.

All they're doing right now is seeing if any of the kids can actually make the team this year.

You might see something happen as soon as the waiver draft on Oct. 3.

nordique

09-22-2003, 09:02 AM

The Leafs need #1 defenseman, and to get one they are going to have to trade for one. Darcy Tucker is also their most valuable assest right now, so to get one the Leafs will most likely have to give up Tucker.

I think best team for the LEafs to deal with (in getting that D-man) and maybe the most likely (since they have already talked) is the Islanders. They want to move Hamrlik, hs makes 3.5 million a year and is a RFA after this season and wiht Aucoin, Niinimaa and Jonsson they can afford to give up Hamrlik. Quinn was talking to Milbury about getting Hamrlik around the draft this year, but Milbury wanted Tucker included in the deal and Quinn didn't want to give Tucker up. Now with Nieuwendyk on the team Tucker becomes more expendable, and Ferguson might not see Tucker as untradable as Quinn did. A trade for Hamrlik, I think, is very possible and would really, really help the Leafs defense. If they can't get him someone like Aucoin or Zhitnik from the Sabers would really help and I'm sure there are other defenseman on the block right now and some will come up at the deadline.

I dare you to go to the Trade board and suggest a Tucker-Aucoin or Tucker-Hamrlik deal. The flaming you'd get from Isles fans would be swift and fast...forgetting that the Isles have excess forward depth (with rookies/second year guys like Hunter, Mapletoft, Weinhandl etc. jockeying for ice time) and that Tucker is still the antichrist who took out Peca...

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 09:30 AM

"Tucker-Aucoin or Tucker-Hamrlik deal. The flaming you'd get from Isles fans would be swift and fast...forgetting that the Isles have excess forward depth "

Who cares, the fans aren't the ones who make the deals. The Islanders want to move Hamrlik and probably will befor the end of the season. They don't have a ton of fowards past their top 5-6 who can check and score goals, like Tucker can. Reguardless of whether the fans think its a good deal or not the two teams talked during the off season and the thing that kept hte deal from being made (according to the normal Toronto media sources) was Quinn not wanting to give up Tucker (that doesn't mean he was the ONLY guy going to the Islanders).

nordique

09-22-2003, 09:33 AM

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 09:42 AM

Hamrlik hasn't gone anywhere. They did shop him around during the off season and given what he makes now and the fact that hes an RFA next year with arbatration rights its expected/believed they want to move him to aviod that situation.

I have no idea where to find stuff on that trade now - it was inall the papers and talked about on Mojo and Fan around the draft. The deal I heard had Tucker, Berg/Green and a 2nd round pick going to the Islanders for Hamrlik, but Quinn refused to give up Tucker.

Owen Wilson

09-22-2003, 09:52 AM

- Craig Rivet
- Sheldon Souray

As a Habs fan, I don't think these guys are going anywhere, unless the Leafs(or any team for that matter) overpay.

Leaf Army

09-22-2003, 10:02 AM

As a Habs fan, I don't think these guys are going anywhere, unless the Leafs(or any team for that matter) overpay.

Well they're probably not going anywhere right now.

But let's say a few months from now, Kondratiev establishes himself at the NHL level and Pilar recovers and starts playing like he did two years ago.

So under those circumstances, would Kondratiev, Pilar and a 3rd round pick be fair payment for Rivet? To tell you the truth, I'd be nervous making that trade from a Leafs perspective.

Of course that's just one example. Maybe the deal would center around Jackman and Hedin, or maybe Berg and Pilar.....etc.

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 10:09 AM

ACC1224

09-22-2003, 10:12 AM

Leafarmy - why would you want to get some of the younger defensemen the leafs have playing well, then trade them for a vet. (and a vet like Rivet - that would be a terrible trade for the Leafs) when defesnse is already a problem. They have a surplus of fowards like Tucker that teams would be interested in, thats who should be traded for defensive help, not players like Kondratiev and Jackman, trading guys like that away while keeping someone like Tucker is just stupid.

man, you make too much sense....something this forum hasn't seen for quite a while.

Leaf Army

09-22-2003, 10:17 AM

Leafarmy - why would you want to get some of the younger defensemen the leafs have playing well, then trade them for a vet. (and a vet like Rivet - that would be a terrible trade for the Leafs) when defesnse is already a problem. They have a surplus of fowards like Tucker that teams would be interested in, thats who should be traded for defensive help, not players like Kondratiev and Jackman, trading guys like that away while keeping someone like Tucker is just stupid.

Well what do you suggest we do with the surplus of young defencmen?

Let me remind you that only two years ago Tucker had more points than Alex Mogilny. Not to mention he's leading the team in scoring in the preseason.

Anyway, just tell me your plan for the young defencemen.

monkey_00*

09-22-2003, 10:19 AM

The Leafs need #1 defenseman, and to get one they are going to have to trade for one. Darcy Tucker is also their most valuable assest right now, so to get one the Leafs will most likely have to give up Tucker.

I think best team for the LEafs to deal with (in getting that D-man) and maybe the most likely (since they have already talked) is the Islanders. They want to move Hamrlik, hs makes 3.5 million a year and is a RFA after this season and wiht Aucoin, Niinimaa and Jonsson they can afford to give up Hamrlik. Quinn was talking to Milbury about getting Hamrlik around the draft this year, but Milbury wanted Tucker included in the deal and Quinn didn't want to give Tucker up. Now with Nieuwendyk on the team Tucker becomes more expendable, and Ferguson might not see Tucker as untradable as Quinn did. A trade for Hamrlik, I think, is very possible and would really, really help the Leafs defense. If they can't get him someone like Aucoin or Zhitnik from the Sabers would really help and I'm sure there are other defenseman on the block right now and some will come up at the deadline.

Hamrlik in Toronto sounds like a great idea and we could even pair him up with fellow Czech-mate Tomas Kaberle.........HOWEVER if Tucker is the guy they'd want in return than I'm not too sure about making such a deal.........I think Tucker is primed to have a Big Year..........so far he's looked very good in training camp right up there with Nieuwendyk I think in overall team leading scorers.......having said that it wouldn't surprise me at this stage of the game to see Tucker being dealt away..........his name keeps popping up whenever people discuss possible trades involving Toronto..........and as the saying goes if you want something of value you have to give up something up of value in return as well.

ACC1224

09-22-2003, 10:26 AM

Well what do you suggest we do with the surplus of young defencmen?

Let me remind you that only two years ago Tucker had more points than Alex Mogilny. Not to mention he's leading the team in scoring in the preseason.

Anyway, just tell me your plan for the young defencemen.

Now Tucker is comparable to Mogilny??? he had 2 more points but played 11 more games in a career year....the year before he had 46 fewer points and played 7 more games

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 10:26 AM

2 seasons ago Tucker had a carrer yet, he may never reach those numbers ago. Mogilny is a proven sniper and scorer. Tucker also played 3 games in Europe against young and sub-nhl level teams. He had a great pre-season last year and good first couple games, then fell off. He won't lead the LEafs in scoring - Sundin, Mogilny, Nolan will be higher scorers, with good chances that Antropov, Nieuwendyk, Roberts and Kaberle will out score him as well. They also have guys like Green, Domi, Holden, Ponik. etc... who can fill his role. I'd perfer to keep him then give him up, but you have to give up something to get something.

In a few years the Leafs could trade some of those young defensemen, but right now it wouldn't be a smart move. What if Jackman and Kondratiev really prove to have good years then are traded and Bell and Colaiacovo fail to make the NHL?Hell, I'd rather have Jackman then Rivet right now. Your talking about subtracting from the defense then adding to it, its spinning your wheels. You may get the #1 D-man, but you lose the good depth players. Tucker is expendable, Jackman and Kontratiev aren't.

monkey_00*

09-22-2003, 10:28 AM

caber24

09-22-2003, 10:29 AM

Make a deal for Buffalo hold-out Jay McKee

Kaberle-McKee
McCabe-Jackman
Marchment-Hedin/Kondratiev/Bell

Leaf Army

09-22-2003, 10:37 AM

I'm not comparing Tucker to Mogilny- just pointing out that Tucker is not expendable.

We have a surplus of young defenceman- to the point where some of them might not be getting enough ice-time this year.

You're underrating Rivet. He's only 29 years old, he had 22 points last year, can play in all situations, he can fight and play tough and he's a good leader.

Heck, Montreal probably won't even trade Rivet. But I listed a bunch of other defencemen the Leafs could target as well.

And I never said the Leafs would definately send Kondratiev and Jackman the other way. Obviously it depends on how those guys play this year. Maybe it would be Berg and Hedin for a proven #3 guy. Who knows.

p.l.f.

09-22-2003, 10:43 AM

i noticed pushor played with kaberle last night :)

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 10:50 AM

Leafarmy - Tucker IS expendable. Theres nothing he does that other players on the team can't do.

And sure some of hte young guys might not get much ice time this year, but they are the future of the team, give them away and you give away a big part of the Leafs future.

"You're underrating Rivet. He's only 29 years old, he had 22 points last year, can play in all situations, he can fight and play tough and he's a good leader"

So you basically want to give up Jackman and Kondratiev for a player excatly like Jackman? THe Leafs don't need a #3 defenseman, they needa #1, and Tucker is their most expendable, tradable player.

Epoch

09-22-2003, 10:54 AM

Leafarmy - Tucker IS expendable. Theres nothing he does that other players on the team can't do.

I beg to differ.:p

So you're telling me Reichel can piss off the opposition so much they want to kill him?!

p.l.f.

09-22-2003, 10:55 AM

i dunno, we got antro and roberts hurting
mogilny and nieuwendyk have wonky backs/knees
and you say tucker's expendable?

Leaf Army

09-22-2003, 10:58 AM

So you basically want to give up Jackman and Kondratiev for a player excatly like Jackman? THe Leafs don't need a #3 defenseman, they needa #1, and Tucker is their most expendable, tradable player.

Where did I ever say I wanted to trade Jackman and Kondratiev for Rivet??? Stop putting words in my mouth.

ACC1224

09-22-2003, 11:08 AM

I beg to differ.:p

So you're telling me Reichel can piss off the opposition so much they want to kill him?!

No he can't but they don't need him to Domi can....what they won't be able to replace is the whining and untimely penalties, man no one whines like Marcy.

Epoch

09-22-2003, 11:15 AM

No he can't but they don't need him to Domi can....what they won't be able to replace is the whining and untimely penalties, man no one whines like Marcy.

Domi can't get under the skin of players like Darcy can.:rolleyes:

Pinto

09-22-2003, 11:16 AM

Quinn was talking to Milbury about getting Hamrlik around the draft this year, but Milbury wanted Tucker included in the deal and Quinn didn't want to give Tucker up

Milbury wanted Antropov, not tucker. Hes Milbury wanted Tucker and just tucker, We Would have a number 1 dman right now

Kondratiev, Pilar and a 3rd round pick be fair payment for Rivet?

overpayment

ACC1224

09-22-2003, 11:19 AM

Domi can't get under the skin of players like Darcy can.:rolleyes:

This isn't wrestling...there is a lot more to the game then getting under players skin...if that's Tuckers only value you can think of, ship him out and bring in any monkey to do that.

Epoch

09-22-2003, 11:25 AM

This isn't wrestling...there is a lot more to the game then getting under players skin...if that's Tuckers only value you can think of, ship him out and bring in any monkey to do that.

No I don't think that's his only good attribute. In my mind Tucker is superior to Domi.

ACC1224

09-22-2003, 11:26 AM

No I don't think that's his only good attribute. In my mind Tucker is superior to Domi.

well of course he is that's why he has some trade value

Ohio Jones

09-22-2003, 11:42 AM

No I don't think that's his only good attribute. In my mind Tucker is superior to Domi.

... and in everyone else's mind, too. But that's the point, isn't it? The better Tucker does this pre-season (and into the season, if he isn't moved before), the less inclined the Leafs will be to move him, but the more valuable he becomes on the trade market. It's nice to have an agitator, but I can't think of a single game last season (or the season before) where Tucker being able to rile up the opposition resulted directly in a Leafs win. Being a pest is a nice ingredient to have, but if that's all that seperates you from your competitors on the roster for ice-time, you can most certainly be moved to shore up a major weakness elsewhere.

The more compelling argument agaisnt moving Tucker is the health issue - the geriatric Leafs need to keep young, hgelthy legs around. While Poni should make the club in a 3rd/4th line role, I'm not sure (particularly based on last night's performence, although I grant it's a bad example, and one should never base decisions on one game anyway...) that any other Leaf forwards will be making any impact with the big club this year aside from injury fill-in duty. Gavey, Leeb, even Holden - these guys aren't making me want to trade to make room for them. So having a guy like Tucker around - who's young, feisty, and above all, HEALTHY - isn't such a bad thing.

As I said though, the better he plays, the more valuable he becomes on teh market, and the more I'd lean towards moving him if necessary.

As our defence stands now, I think Jackman at least has earned the chance to step up into the second pairing, but no one else has...

Kaberle - McCabe
??? - Jackman
Marchment - Berg

I still like the pairing of Mush with Berg (should bring out the bear in Aki). I could see Pushor hanging around as a cheap #7, assuming that Belak moves more-or-lkess permanently to wing. Hedin has looked far shakier than advertised, although there's still lots of pre-season left for him to settle down and establish himself. As of today, though, he starts on the Rock. Pilar goes back to the Rock (once healthy) to get into shape and rebuild confidence. Kondratiev and (a healthy) Colaiacovo may yet challenge for a spot, but in both cases I think the players are better suited to playing the year in St. John's. Same with Bell and Harrison... actually I could see Harrison being part of the trade package for the missing #3. Tucker, Harrison and a 3rd for Hamrlik? Wouldn't complain here, although I agree it's a long shot. Hamrlik and Kabs, McCabe and Jackman, Mush and Berg would make me feel a lot better, though.

Lots of time yet, let's see how the youngsters finish out camp, and then I suspect we'll see what magic Mr. Ferguson brings to the table...

Dar

09-22-2003, 11:46 AM

Tucker, although valuable, is expendible and I have to agree with Sluggo on this one. If a deal were offered Hamrlik straight up for Tucker then Fergie would be a fool not to do it. But I don't think that's fair value for the Isles, they could get better elsewhere. I'm thinking the Leafs would have to offer Tucker + say, Bell to get Millbury to return any phone calls.

As much as a lot of fans love Darcy (the Marcy thing was harsh ACC1224) and would hate to see him go, they have to realize that you're not going to get a good player for a package of "meh, don't wanim's anymore" players.

If a habs fan came on here and offered Brisebois and Juneau for Kaberle we'd be all over them in a heartbeat, it works both ways.

Tucker is a good forechecker (although I'd wish he'd hit the target more often than the boards), an agitator who doesn't back down and can be a good offensive threat when he's on his game. That's what makes him a tradable commodity whilst at the same time making others believe he's untradable.

Domi, McCabe, Belak and now Antropov can play the roles of agitators although Antropov really should go to school on fighting if he wants to back it up. They have good forechecking in Renberg, Roberts, Domi, Nolan, Fitzgerald and Green and plenty of scoring threats in Sundin, Mogilny, Nieuwendyk, Reichel, Nolan, Antropov and to a lesser degree Roberts and Domi. So Tucker although he'll be missed will not be as big a hole to fill as they have now on defense.

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 01:29 PM

I said at least once that the rumors (and I can't believe no one on here heard about them) had Tucker and Green/Berg/Prospect and sometimes a 2nd or 3rd round pick going to the Islanders for Hamrlik, but Tucker was the sticking point (as it was with Niinimaa and Zhitnik), Quinn refused to give him up.

Guys like Domi, Fitzgereld, Belak, Renberg, Green, McCabe, Marchment, and to a less extent Roberts, Antropov and Jackman can all get under opponents skins (and don't say Domi can't, when was the last time a FAN attacked Tucker?). Plus guys like Holden, Barrett and Ponik are only ever going to fill that role with the Leafs if/when they make it.

Of course I'd rather have him then not have him, hes one of my favorite Leafs (hell, 2 years ago I paid $130 for a Tucker Jersey) but I also want the Leafs to win, and to do that they need a #1 D-man, and to trade for that guy Tucker will most likely have to be moved, its just what it all adds up too. You can't move guys like Mogilny or Antropov and still have as good a shot at it, and moving the young defense just as they start to come into their own wouldn't make sense. Tuckers been mentioned in trades to the Islandres and the Sabers - either one would bring in a #1 guy for the Leafs

"So under those circumstances, would Kondratiev, Pilar and a 3rd round pick be fair payment for Rivet? To tell you the truth, I'd be nervous making that trade from a Leafs perspective.

Of course that's just one example. Maybe the deal would center around Jackman and Hedin, or maybe Berg and Pilar"

Thats where you said you'd give up a combo of Kondratiev, Piler, Jackman or Hedin for Rivet. And trade like that makes no sense.

Kvashinator12

09-22-2003, 01:31 PM

no way tucker + a prospect gets u hamrlik. He is a number 1 dman in this league and is superior to any Dman on ur team. Would you take Mark Parrish for Kaberle? That's about how fair the deal is, and MM doesnt want to deal Hamrlik, and secondly he would ask for Antropov. MM wants a top 6 forward for him, and thats why the name Demitra popped up around draft time, and tucker isn't on the same planet as Demitra.

nordique

09-22-2003, 01:36 PM

From Trottier, mod of the Isles board:

Question: Would Tucker plus a prospect or two net us Hamrlik, as sluggo keeps insisting it would?

"Honest answer: no. Your Leaf friends are simply undervaluing the worth of a bonafide top-pair Dman, who is in his prime. Likewise, that offer does not even address NYI's needs whatsoever.

The only way Hamrlik is moved, IMO - short of some ridiculous offer - is if NYI fails mightily this season and Hamrlik seems like he is going to be a major contract problem after this season. The latter is very possible, the former much less likely, IMO."

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 01:40 PM

"MM doesnt want to deal Hamrlik, and secondly he would ask for Antropov"

He does have to move Hamrlik because they probably won't be able to afford him past this season. And yes he wanted Tucker, a player and sometimes ap ick for him. Yes there are better fowards like Demitra, but they can't afford him either, they can afford Tuckers 1.4 million. He probably also wants a guy like TUcker - 2nd/3rd liner (on the Islanders) who can get 20 goals a season (put him about 5th on the Islanders) the lost Webb and Robitaille he probably wants to replace some of their grit.. He can also afford to give up Hamrlik because they have Jonsson, Niinimaa and Aucoin.

What Trottier, mod of the Isles board says/thinks means nothing. The the two teams talked, the Islanders wanted Tucker, it was talked about alot around the draft, and the rumors stopped a couple days after. Unless he works for the Islanders and is prevy to hearing what plans the GM has and is making behind closed doors what they say means nothing. If you asked Oiler fans at the start of the year if the Oilers would give up Carter and Niinimaa for what they did (an underachiving powerfoward, a streaky, injury prone winger, a #4 defenseman and a minor leaguer) they would have said no, but it happened. Hamrlik will probably be moved, and the Leafs were in the running before, good chance they could still be int he mix.

wasting time

09-22-2003, 01:41 PM

Hamrlik is one.
Hamrlik would be good, yup...

Kvashinator12

09-22-2003, 01:58 PM

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 02:03 PM

Kvashinator12

09-22-2003, 02:20 PM

These talks were going on in JUNE, its not like it was in yesterdays Sun.

And the Islanders are fine with what they are paying Hamrlik NOW, they dont' want to have to pay him 4,5,6 million that he could get in arbitration.

i guess you have inside info of these talks? he makes $3,600,000.00 now, and i am sure he will take less that what he would get for a one year deal for a longterm one

nordique

09-22-2003, 02:40 PM

These talks were going on in JUNE, its not like it was in yesterdays Sun.

And the Islanders are fine with what they are paying Hamrlik NOW, they dont' want to have to pay him 4,5,6 million that he could get in arbitration.

I don't ever remembering Tucker being the obstacle to Hamrlik coming to Toronto.

I'm pretty sure it would have been frequently discussed on talk radio, in the papers, on this board...

OBVIOUSLY they should deal Tucker for Hamrlik if the 1-1 deal is available...

OBVIOUSLY it isn't.

And by the way, Edmonton was desperate to cut salary...and Isbister and Torres isn't anything to sneeze at in return for Niinimaa. I've yet to see the Islander multizillionaire owners having trouble paying bills to keep the team in Long Island.

I'd also like to find someone else who remembers this whole "Quinn wouldn't deal Tucker to get Hamrlik" business.

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 03:22 PM

"OBVIOUSLY they should deal Tucker for Hamrlik if the 1-1 deal is available"

How many ****en times do I have to say it wasn't purposed to be a straight up deal?

nordique

09-22-2003, 03:58 PM

"OBVIOUSLY they should deal Tucker for Hamrlik if the 1-1 deal is available"

How many ****en times do I have to say it wasn't purposed to be a straight up deal?

All you have to do is come up with some credible evidence other than "it was talked about" that Quin wouldn't part with Tucker.

What was the deal, then? Tucker and Aki Berg? Tucker and Brad Boyes? Tucker and Carlo Colaiacovo?

See, a Tucker/Carlo for Hamrlik rumour would be somewhat believable, even if it doesn't address the Isles' true need for a big-time scoring winger.

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 04:02 PM

nordique

09-22-2003, 04:09 PM

First Boyes wasn't involved because this was talked abotu the draft.

Second I don't document everything I read about the Leafs, try listening to a radio, watching a t.v or reading a paper and using that thing you hvae called a MEMORY. The big stories with the Leafs at the draft was that Quinn was talking to Washington (probably about getting Lindros if they did) and Quinn was talking to the Islanders about getting Hamrlik for a package with Tucker as teh center piece. THe first one fell apart because that NY/Washington trade never happened, and the second did because Quinn refused to give up Tucker (has he always has been).

Then what was the package???

Alexander Steen?
Colaiacovo?

Propose a Tucker-Hamrlik deal that makes any sense from an Islanders' point of view and maybe I'll hop on board...but so far, not one thing you've said has made an iota of sense for Milbury aside from the fact that Hamrlik isn't signed beyond this season...but NY papers say that he's renegotiating with them as we speak.

Please explain to me how a team with Jason Blake, Dave Scatchard, Mike Peca, Jason Wiemer, Arron Asham etc. needs Tucker.

You can play 12 forwards, correct?
Here's the depth chart, absent positions:

1. Yashin
2. Peca
3. Parrish
4. Bates
5. J. Blake
6. Scatchard
7. Czerkawski
8. Wiemer
9. Papineau
10. Mapletoft
11. Hunter
12. Weinhandl
13. Kvasha
14. Webb
15. Asham
16. Godard
17. Bergenheim, later in the season?

They have, much like us, a team with a handful of scorers and a ton of lunchpail guys, plus some *real* prospects that need a chance to shine in full-time duty like Hunter, Mapletoft and Papineau.

Where does Darcy fit in?

The Isles need a player like a Mogilny-type...they've been lacking it since Palffy left. Tucker just adds to what they already have. I fail to see the fit here.

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 04:25 PM

CREW99AW

09-22-2003, 04:54 PM

The Leafs need #1 defenseman, and to get one they are going to have to trade for one. Darcy Tucker is also their most valuable assest right now, so to get one the Leafs will most likely have to give up Tucker.

I think best team for the LEafs to deal with (in getting that D-man) and maybe the most likely (since they have already talked) is the Islanders. They want to move Hamrlik, hs makes 3.5 million a year and is a RFA after this season and wiht Aucoin, Niinimaa and Jonsson they can afford to give up Hamrlik. Quinn was talking to Milbury about getting Hamrlik around the draft this year, but Milbury wanted Tucker included in the deal and Quinn didn't want to give Tucker up. Now with Nieuwendyk on the team Tucker becomes more expendable, and Ferguson might not see Tucker as untradable as Quinn did. A trade for Hamrlik, I think, is very possible and would really, really help the Leafs defense.

1.Yesterday's Newsday reported that Hamrlik has told his rep to try and get a nyi extension signed.

2.Jonsson's signed for only 2 yrs this past summer and indicated an interest in returning to Sweden to play.I doubt the nyi connsider KJ with his concussion history and questionable desire to return home,a longterm answer.

3.Isles front office,fans and players despise-Tucker,considering his hit on Peca to be a dirty play.So the any rumors that nyi have interest in Tucker is a joke.They'd never intentionally bring in a player who'd cause lockerroom tension.

4.Milbury called ex-nyi T.Green a "gutless puke". last yr.MM would never bring Green back to LI.

5.At the 2003 draft,Berger reported the Leafs asked for either Jonsson or Hamrlik and were told that Antropov would have to be in any deal.

6.Isles owner has signed off on this yr's budget.MM has said there won't be any salary dumping and the nyi with 22 yr old DiPietro in net are going to a trapping system that will rely heavily,on their defense.

Darth Milbury

09-22-2003, 05:01 PM

First the package was rumored to be Tucker and Berg/Green and a prospect/draft pick.

Second they probably thought/think Tucker can fit in on their second or third line, give them a lot a grit (they lost Webb and Robitialle) and 20 goals/40-50 pts. Remember too this deal may happen ONLY because Hamrliks contract is up, if it wasn't up after this season theres no way they would trade him. And don't ask me to tell you why a GM I don't know would want a player, I don't know why the Oilers would want Tucker for Niinimaa but they did, I don't know why Quinn wanted Reichel, Renberg and Lumme so much - those were just the rumors.

I responded to this ridiculous package deal in greater depth on the Isles board, so I'll be brief.

1) Isles GM absolutely hates Travis Green's guts. He called him a "gutless puke" in a televised interview and traded him away years ago for a handful of junk players. Green has no trade value anyway and he isn't far away from UFA status.

2) Tucker is well hated by every player in the Isles dressing room. I have no idea what will happen with Hamrlik down the road. But, one thing is 100% absolutely certain. Tucker will not be an Islander. You'd have to trade half the current Isles' team first. Or, where you not paying attention to Tucker's hit on Peca last year.

3) Berg has little trade value, although I think he could be a decent #5 maybe #4 on a lot of teams.

Basically, this "rumor" is the sort of idea 14-YO Hab fans post on the main board. Lots of junk for a little bit of gold.

Ain't gonna happen.

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 05:02 PM

CREW99AW

09-22-2003, 05:04 PM

CREW99AW

09-22-2003, 05:16 PM

1)

5) Everything I saw had Tucker in the deal, not Antropov. They dumped Isbister for not forfilling his potentail, they didn't want to take another risk on a big, powerfoward who may never mature.

.

TB press,NY press and the Toronto reported both TB and the Leafs asked for Hamrlik.

MM insisted TB include either 6'3 Svivtov or 6'5 Aleexev in any Hamrlik deal.

He demanded the Leafs include Antropov.

During 2003 draft weekend ,the isles used a 2nd rounder to take the big 6'3-6'4 forward prospect Tunik.

So no,the nyi are not shying away from big,physical youngsters.

Kvashinator12

09-22-2003, 05:28 PM

TB press,NY press and the Toronto reported both TB and the Leafs asked for Hamrlik.

MM insisted TB include either 6'3 Svivtov or 6'5 Aleexev in any Hamrlik deal.

He demanded the Leafs include Antropov.

During 2003 draft weekend ,the isles used a 2nd rounder to take the big 6'3-6'4 forward prospect Tunik.

So no,the nyi are not shying away from big,physical youngsters.

did i see tucker mentioned in any isles rumors. After the whole peca incident to even think that he would be welcome on LI is absurd :rolleyes:

sluggo*

09-22-2003, 05:33 PM

No it snot, look at the leafs, they have Nieuwendyk and Marchment on the same team. They understand that players get hurt and put it behind them most of the time.

Mess

09-22-2003, 05:37 PM

did i see tucker mentioned in any isles rumors. After the whole peca incident to even think that he would be welcome on LI is absurd :rolleyes:

Peca and his salary have been rumoured to be available and looking to be shipped out of town....What would you say if it was a Tucker package for Peca???

Solves your problem but it is also absurd to suggest that a GM will not get a player for his team just because one of the players doesnt like him..

As far as I know ..the GM does not run possible trade possibilities by the players dressing room first and see if any players have a problem with it..

I wonder if Ken Holland asked Cujo if he would mind if Hasek returned to the Wings.. :rolleyes:

p.l.f.

09-22-2003, 05:45 PM

i cant see peca and tucker getting along somehow :joker:

CREW99AW

09-22-2003, 05:46 PM

No it snot, look at the leafs, they have Nieuwendyk and Marchment on the same team. They understand that players get hurt and put it behind them most of the time.

Great for Nieuwendyk and Marchment.

Tucker + spare parts for Hamrlik in a salary dump is a leaf fan fantasy.It is a complete 180 from what the nyi owner is saying.

there are 4 major NY newspapers and three 24- hour, all-sports radio stations and not one has reported nyi interest in Tucker.

If they had,it'd have made it's way onto the message boards.Everything(even the minor stuff) gets reported and then debated over.Berger on the fan590 is the one who reported ,the nyi demanded Antropov in any Hamrlik deal and there was plenty of posting about the positives and negatives of moving Hamrlik and getting Antropov+.

You also ignore Newsday's article yesterday, about Hamrlik telling his rep to get an extension signed.We've seen top players this summer forced to take less $ with a cap expected next yr:

Leetch took a $3m paycut,going from roughly $9m last yr to $6m this yr.

Fedorov rejected a 4 yr/$40m offer from the wings and ended up getting $8m a yr from the Ducks.

Hatcher was looking for $8m a yr.He got $6m a yr.

I think the nyi are counting on Hamrlik taking the security of a longterm deal,instead of becoming a ufa in 2005 with a salary cap in place.

CREW99AW

09-22-2003, 05:54 PM

[QUOTE=The Messenger]Peca and his salary have been rumoured to be available and looking to be shipped out of town....What would you say if it was a Tucker package for Peca???

/QUOTE]

Bucky Gleason(Buffalo News) and Stan Fischler have both reported Wang personally called Peca after the draft, to say the isles were not trading Peca.

Leaf Army

09-22-2003, 07:08 PM

"So under those circumstances, would Kondratiev, Pilar and a 3rd round pick be fair payment for Rivet? To tell you the truth, I'd be nervous making that trade from a Leafs perspective.

Of course that's just one example. Maybe the deal would center around Jackman and Hedin, or maybe Berg and Pilar"

Thats where you said you'd give up a combo of Kondratiev, Piler, Jackman or Hedin for Rivet. And trade like that makes no sense.

What??? Did you even read what I wrote???

I clearly said "I'D BE NERVOUS MAKING THAT TRADE FROM A LEAFS PERSPECTIVE."

And that was Kondratiev and Pilar, not Kondratiev and Jackman as you suggested I had said.

I was proving that we would easily be able to put together a package to get a defenceman like Rivet or Souray if we WANTED to.

Learn how to quote properly.

Darth Milbury

09-22-2003, 08:21 PM

1) But if the Islanders can afford what he wants he'll be moved.

2) Who cares.

3) Players have bad blood int he past and play together all the time. Look at Marchment and Nieuwendyk

4) Ok, so no Green in the deal, no big one.

5) Everything I saw had Tucker in the deal, not Antropov. They dumped Isbister for not forfilling his potentail, they didn't want to take another risk on a big, powerfoward who may never mature.

6) Teams always say that kinda stuff then do it anyway. They can also do a trap without him, they would still have 3 top NHL defensemen and several good depth guys. And if a guy like Pilar went back to the Islanders it wouldn't hurt their defense that much.

Counter proposal: Kaberle for Bates, a 2nd rounder, and Czerkawski.

Sound ridiculous? Of course it is. Its just as silly and unrealistic as your idea.

If you want to post fantasy deals that are unrealistic, knock yourself out. But, don't go around talking as if any of this is really happening, because you and I both know you manufactured the whole thing. I notice that none of your posts included a link, or even a quote for a reliable source. The entire idea is purely your own wishful thinking.

Tucker will never be an Islander. Hamrlik will never be a Leaf, at least not at that price. And that is the reality of the situation.

Darth Milbury

09-22-2003, 08:48 PM

Epoch

09-23-2003, 02:40 AM

I don't ever remembering Tucker being the obstacle to Hamrlik coming to Toronto.

I'm pretty sure it would have been frequently discussed on talk radio, in the papers, on this board...

OBVIOUSLY they should deal Tucker for Hamrlik if the 1-1 deal is available...

OBVIOUSLY it isn't.

And by the way, Edmonton was desperate to cut salary...and Isbister and Torres isn't anything to sneeze at in return for Niinimaa. I've yet to see the Islander multizillionaire owners having trouble paying bills to keep the team in Long Island.

I'd also like to find someone else who remembers this whole "Quinn wouldn't deal Tucker to get Hamrlik" business.

What I heard on draft day was it was Antropov for Hamrlik,but the Leafs refused to give him up. Tucker was never mentioned, I believe.

Pinto

09-23-2003, 03:19 AM

try listening to a radio, watching a t.v or reading a paper and using that thing you hvae called a MEMORY.

I guess you dont have very good memory because all the talk around the draft on radio and many websites that MM wanted Antropov stright up, and quinn said NO, i didnt hear anything about tucker

Papadice

09-23-2003, 03:39 AM

Personally I'd love to see the Leafs move Tucker this year and I fully expect it to happen... I love the guy, he's a heart and soul type of player, but I think a move is necessary... Even if he is set to have a wicked year as it seams he will... The reasons I want to move him:

1) We still could use a top notch dman and Tucker would be a valuable piece to a trade... Moving Tucker, a young dman and a decent draft pick could land you a decent dman...
2) The Leafs now have a reputation around the league as being whiners and complainers... Tucker and Corson led that bunch last year... Corson's gone now and I think the trading of Tucker would start to help us change things around... It might help get rid of that image...

As a die hard Leafs fan I really like Tucker and love him in blue and white... BUT, it seams to make sense to move him in a deal... Sometimes you trade players you don't want to in order to fill a need... Sometimes deals are made that are tough to handle, but they are necessary... I think that is the case here... But honestly, I think if you take Tucker out of Toronto, he'd be half the player he is now... I think playing for the Leafs fires him up and he'd be a 3rd liner at best if he left because he wouldn't play with the same fire...

wasting time

09-23-2003, 03:52 AM

I agree with all the latest posters - no way Tucker fits into the NYI team on the ice or off the ice.

If the Hamrlik trade is going to happen it will be Antropov + a top defensive prospect of MM's choosing -- he can have his pick from Coliaicovo, Kondriatev or Bell. That would be the trade.

It took Brewer, Josh Green and a second to land Hamrlik - and that was when his price was lower AND he really was not playing well, and was on the edge of being considered a bust 1st pick.

Since then he became a monster,.

NYI has the money, and they need to make the playoffs.

It is going to require Antropov + Coliaicovo at least. Any less is pure idiocy to believe.

And I would still make that trade.

nordique

09-23-2003, 04:10 AM

What I heard on draft day was it was Antropov for Hamrlik,but the Leafs refused to give him up. Tucker was never mentioned, I believe.

This is exactly what I've been arguing for a week.

Once again, it's Sluggo against the world.

Papadice

09-23-2003, 04:28 AM

It is going to require Antropov + Coliaicovo at least. Any less is pure idiocy to believe.

If that's the case then there certainly won't be a trade... The ONLY way the Leafs trade Antropov in a deal for Hamrlik is if they decide that Antropov's injury history is too risky and they decide to unload him... And even in they did, Antropov and Colaiacovo for Hamrlik is a loss for the Leafs...

You brought up the Hamrlik for Brewer, Green and a 2nd rounder trade... Yes I agree that Hamrlik's value wasn't as high then... But then again, neither was Brewer's... In retrospect, the Oilers came out pretty sweet in that deal... Today, if you gave me the choice of Brewer or Hamrlik, I'd take Brewer in a second...

ULF_55

09-23-2003, 04:38 AM

If that's the case then there certainly won't be a trade... The ONLY way the Leafs trade Antropov in a deal for Hamrlik is if they decide that Antropov's injury history is too risky and they decide to unload him... And even in they did, Antropov and Colaiacovo for Hamrlik is a loss for the Leafs...

You brought up the Hamrlik for Brewer, Green and a 2nd rounder trade... Yes I agree that Hamrlik's value wasn't as high then... But then again, neither was Brewer's... In retrospect, the Oilers came out pretty sweet in that deal... Today, if you gave me the choice of Brewer or Hamrlik, I'd take Brewer in a second...

Hamrlik's value is less.

He is looking for an extension, but I believe he's on his last year before CBA, and would be UFA after CBA. He is by all rights a one year rental. You really think you could get Brewer, Green and a 2nd. rounder for one year of Hamrlik?

As for the budget, if the budget is signed off that is good, but that doesn't mean the intent is not to reduce it by trading, all it means is they aren't officially in the dump mode. If anyone deals with CA they know money is an issue, and that company has become very agreeable to giving better prices and deals because of the Tech Market.

ACC1224

09-23-2003, 04:48 AM

....As much as a lot of fans love Darcy (the Marcy thing was harsh ACC1224) and would hate to see him go, .

You're right it's an insult to Marcy's everywhere.

Papadice

09-23-2003, 04:54 AM

I just took a look at some of the organizational depth charts in the NHL to see what might be available to the Leafs for defensemen via trade... These are the players that I see as somewhat expendable throughout the league:

Alexei Zhitnik - Buffalo would love to dump his salary and they are deep on the point now....
Jay McKee - The current contract impass could force them to move him, and their depth allows them to make the move...
Aaron Ward - Not really what the Leafs need but a solid defensive dman... Thanks to Carolina's new found defensive depth he could be available...
Sean Hill - He'd be a good pick up for the Leafs and could be expendable for the Canes...
Mathieu Dandenault - Detroit's defense is stellar right now and Dandenault could be had, although he's not really the guy Toronto needs...
Mathieu Schneider - See Dandenault...
Roman Hamrlik - Would be a great fit in Toronto but I have a feeling that the Leafs wouldn't have a deal that would fit the Islanders needs to move him...
Kenny Jonsson - A more likely guy for the Islanders to move, but he's not as good of a fit for the Leafs...
Brad Lukowich - Not sure if the Bolts would move him or not, but they are getting fairly deep on the point so it could happen... He's still relatively young and a very solid defensive dman... I'd be happy with him in Toronto...
Alexander Khavanov - With Ferguson's ties to St.Louis this seams possible and the Blues have great defense so they could spare him... He could fit into a top 4 spot for Toronto...
Bryce Salvador - Again, the Ferguson connection could keep this as a possibility but I don't think he's more than a 5th dman at best right now so I'd rather see the Leafs pass on him...

On free agency pretty much all that's left of value is:
Ken Klee - Would be a nice addition for the Leafs in a #4 role but honestly, he's asking for too much right now and unless his price comes down, I'd rather see the Leafs pass on him...
Bryan Berard - Offensive dman with defensive deficiencies... Not at all what the Leafs need right now
Oleg Tverdovsky - Berard but with more offensive skill... Overall not a bad dman if you play him with a stay at home dman... Unfortunately, the Leafs don't possess many of them...
Dmitri Yushkevich - Great warrior and very solid defensively... Injury worries exist though and he seams to have lost a step... If he'd sign at a respectable contract he'd be great to see in a Leafs jersey again... But could he get along with Quinn?

Overall, I'd say that I'm happy to start the season with what we have...

Kaberle McCabe
Marchment Jackman
Berg Kondratiev/Pushor

I have confidence that Jackman can be a top 4 guy if given the opportunity... and I have confidence that Pushor will be AT LEAST a VERY solid 6th guy... However, if any of the above falter and we feel that we need to go out and get a dman, my choices from above are:

Roman Hamrlik (but I don't think we'll be able to land him)
Jay McKee (could step into #3 or #4 role)
Alexei Zhitnik (could be solid #2, and Buffalo could dump his salary)
Brad Lukowich (I doubt we'd be able to get him)
Sean Hill (Could be VERY solid for us and a veteran presence)
Ken Klee (IF he lowers his asking price)
Dmitri Yushkevich (would he regain his form in Toronto?)
Alexander Khavanov - (I could see this happening)
Oleg Tverdovsky - (Last resort... At least he'd be an NHL level talent although I'd scream through my TV at him every second night for making a bonehead defensive play... He's no better than any guy we have in our system defensively, but at least he'd put up big offensive numbers to make up for it somewhat...)

Hopefully though everything just falls together nicely and we can go with our kids... I'd LOVE to last until the trade deadline without making a move for defense, and then maybe catch hold of a legitimate #1 dman at the deadline for a bit cheaper because teams not in contention are trying to unload before the lockout...

loveshack2

09-23-2003, 05:26 AM

Zhitnik, Hamrlik and McKee would all be solid additions, what they would cost is a different question though. Hill is one Ive been thinking about for awhile and would be happy if the Leafs went after him though hopefully he wouldnt cost much with his age and fairly large contract.

In the UFA marker, Klee and Yushkevich would be good additions IMHO although not at the price either one is currently asking for.

CREW99AW

09-23-2003, 06:42 AM

Hamrlik's value is less.

He is looking for an extension, but I believe he's on his last year before CBA, and would be UFA after CBA. He is by all rights a one year rental. You really think you could get Brewer, Green and a 2nd. rounder for one year of Hamrlik?

As for the budget, if the budget is signed off that is good, but that doesn't mean the intent is not to reduce it by trading, all it means is they aren't officially in the dump mode. If anyone deals with CA they know money is an issue, and that company has become very agreeable to giving better prices and deals because of the Tech Market.

1.Hamrlik's got 2 yrs before he's a ufa.

2.both the front office and Hamrlik have said they want an extension.

3.If Wang didn't demand a salary dump 16-17 months ago when CA's stock tumbled below $8 a share,then I doubt he demands a salary dump now that CA's stock has climbed to $27.50 a share.

4.Wang is one of 3 or 4 people who have made an offer for the NJ Nets.He'd needs both teams to have good fan support for the new arena he wants.Does he want to dump salary and go back to 5,000 fans in his 16,232 seat arena?

Darth Milbury

09-23-2003, 07:10 AM

What I heard on draft day was it was Antropov for Hamrlik,but the Leafs refused to give him up. Tucker was never mentioned, I believe.

NEWSDAY reported that the Leafs had asked about a top four defender on the Isles, and that the Isles wanted Antropov. I don't know how true that was. Tucker's name never came up.

Darth Milbury

09-23-2003, 07:12 AM

ULF_55

09-23-2003, 08:54 AM

3.If Wang didn't demand a salary dump 16-17 months ago when CA's stock tumbled below $8 a share,then I doubt he demands a salary dump now that CA's stock has climbed to $27.50 a share.

Having dealt with Platinum and CA for years I can tell you money is an issue. Heck they are bending over backwards to be accomodating now, unlike the stick it in your ears days.

Darth Milbury

09-23-2003, 09:00 AM

Having dealt with Platinum and CA for years I can tell you money is an issue. Heck they are bending over backwards to be accomodating now, unlike the stick it in your ears days.

Crew's point is that there is no evidence the Isles are about to engage in mass salary dumps, so you won't be getting Hamrlik or other core players on the cheap.

sluggo*

09-23-2003, 09:04 AM

Chevy Cheveldae

09-23-2003, 03:03 PM

Is Anders Eriksson on the St.John roster for this season too, i saw he got a try-out contract with the Blue Jackets for their camp

but if they cut him, does he go back to St.John ?

I bet he's quite far away from making the big Leafs right....

he'll probably return home to Sweden soon, or maybe he can get a trade to one of the smaller teams( he'd better make a impression with BJ)

loveshack2

09-23-2003, 03:29 PM

Kvashinator12

09-23-2003, 03:43 PM

Darth Milbury

09-23-2003, 04:50 PM

I don't know the Islanders situation, all I know is that the trade was talked about Quinn not wanting to give up Tucker was the sticking point. Also everything I've seen liket he hockey news etc.... has talked abotu the Islanders moving Hamrlik to save money.

So, exactly how do you know that all of this happened? It was not reported in any news source. I did a web search last night.

Nobody on the Leafs board or Islander board recalls anything like this. In fact, all of us (Leaf fans and Isles fans alike) recall a deal involving Hamrlik and Antropov being discussed, and the Leafs not wanting to move Antropov.

You are the only one in either the Leafs or Isles forum who thinks the deal involved Tucker, and there is no mention of Tucker for Hamrlik in any published source I've seen. And, you admitted earlier in this thread that you had no source at all but it was just something your remembered "hearing."

One of two things happened here. Either you made this ridiculous deal up yourself, or you read it on some chatboard, and decided it sounded good. But, none of this every really happened. It is pure fiction.

And, yeah, you may have read about the Isles CONSIDERING a move of Hamrlik. But, in all those discussions, the Isles were thinking about moving Hamrlik for a top six forward to play with Yashin. For example, the Isles talked to St. Louis about a Hamrlik for Demtra deal a little earlier in the year. Tucker, who had a grand total of 10 goals last year, is hardly a top six forward.

Bottom line: You've dreamed up a fantasy deal involving three players the Isles don't want at all for a their number one dman. And, then you've posted it here as it was reality. Not surprsingly, no Islander or Leaf fan believed you. So, either you are a liar (meaning you made it up and are trying to sell it as real), or an you just aren't all that smart (meaning you read it on a chat board and believed it to be truth without questioning the source).

Here is what I 100% know for certain:

1) Tucker will NEVER be an Islander.
2) The Isles never had any interest in trading Hamrlik for Tucker.
3) The Isles never had any interest in reacquiring Travis Green.

ULF_55

09-23-2003, 04:56 PM

Here is what I 100% know for certain:

1) Tucker will NEVER be an Islander.
2) The Isles never had any interest in trading Hamrlik for Tucker.
3) The Isles never had any interest in reacquiring Travis Green.

I'd have to agree 100% here, under the current situation.

NEVER is a long time though :dunno:

Darth Milbury

09-23-2003, 05:25 PM

I'd have to agree 100% here, under the current situation.

NEVER is a long time though :dunno:

I agree. That is why I don't use the word "never" lightly.

But, notice that I didn't say Hamrlik would NEVER be a Leaf. I think it is highly unlikely, but it certainly could happen.

Icewind Dale

09-23-2003, 05:38 PM

Bottom line: You've dreamed up a fantasy deal involving three players the Isles don't want at all for a their number one dman. And, then you've posted it here as it was reality. Not surprsingly, no Islander or Leaf fan believed you. So, either you are a liar (meaning you made it up and are trying to sell it as real), or an you just aren't all that smart (meaning you read it on a chat board and believed it to be truth without questioning the source).

If you do a search on his posts, you'll notice he has quite an extensive history of reporting things that have never occured. Funny enough, it doesn't matter if you provide statistics and evidence to back up your claim. He'll still refute it and say "It's not my fault you never listen to the radio!" as if everyone is hearing things that aren't reality.

Further proof why children need to stay in school for a proper education, I suppose.

Icewind Dale

09-23-2003, 05:57 PM

I know I'm in the minority, but I feel good about this defence.

This is the way I see it lineing up right now.

Kaberle--McCabe
Berg--Jackman
Marchment--Kondratiev
Pushor

St.John's (in no particular order)
1. Colaiacovo
2. Bell
3. Hedin
4. Moro
5. Chartier
6. Harrison
7. Kelly
8. Pilar

Since we have an excess of young defencemen, halfway through the year, I'd like to see the Leafs package a couple of them along with a draft pick for a more veteran guy.

Here's a list of the type of guys they might be able to get in my opinion.
- Jay McKee
- Denis Gauthier
- Jon Klemm
- Steve Staios
- Craig Rivet
- Sheldon Souray
- Bryce Salvador
- Mike Rathje
- Brad Lukowich
- Brendan Witt

To be honest, I don't really feel good or bad about the defense. Here's the way I see it. You have some good things and some bad things about the defense. If you compare it to last year's starting blueline, one could argue they're better overall. Think about it.

Last year:
Kaberle
Svehla
McCabe
Lumme
Berg
Jackman/Belak/Pilar

This year:
Kaberle
McCabe
Jackman
Berg
Marchment
Hedin/Pilar/Kondratiev

The only real loss is Svehla. McCabe played relatively poor by his standards last year and would have most likely been considered a #4 if that had been the type of play he was known for. However, we know better and have seen that he's capable of a lot more. So basically, if McCabe can jump back into top pairing status, which is definitely a possibility, Svehla's replacement would be right there. All we would need would be someone to replace the play we got from last year's McCabe. With Jackman looking like a possibility to step into legitimate top four status, that's possible. This doesn't even bring into account that Lumme's been severely upgraded with Marchment, while Berg and Kaberle are both a year further along in their development. Not to mention the likes of Hedin/Pilar/Kondratiev.

If McCabe reestablishes himself as a top pairing guy, then the defense is definitely stronger than the one we started with last season.

Icewind Dale

09-23-2003, 06:02 PM

sluggo*

09-23-2003, 06:15 PM

nordique

09-23-2003, 06:52 PM

The defense was weak last year (allowed way to many shots on net) and disapeared in the playoffs. The only reason the Leafs did as well as they did last year was because Belfour played as well as he did, and at 37/38 years old I don't think the leafs will get the same kind of preformance. I don't think he'll be as bad as he was 2 years ago, but not as good as he was last year. They need a horse, and they need to trade to get one. They don't have a legit #1 D-man and they need one. They have one of the best offensive d-men, and a lot of good depth players, but they need that horse.

Oh my GOD this is annoying.

WE KNOW THEY NEED ANOTHER GOOD DEFENCEMAN

How many teams have even ONE of these players?

In the East...

Ottawa - Redden. Chara. The top 1-2 punch in the East.
New Jersey - I'd argue that Stevens isn't in the ultra-elite anymore...Niedermayer doesn't fit your standard since he's an offensive defenceman first...ditto Rafalski
Philadelphia - Nope. Desjardins used to be. Johnsson might become one. They've got solid guys 1-6.
NY Rangers - is Kasparitis a "horse"? is he worth $5 million per? I'd say no and no. Leetch is done.
Tampa Bay - nope.
NY Isles - Hamrlik, Niinimaa & Aucoin. I'd put Jonsson a notch below.
Washington - Gonchar is an offensive dynamo, but is he your "horse" either? Sure would love to have him though.
Florida - nope. Bouwmeester's on the way.
Carolina - a solid six, but no clear #1.
Buffalo - Zhitnik...arguably. I'd say he's not a #1 guy on a real contender.
Pittsburgh - nope.
Atlanta - nope.
Boston - nope.
Montreal - nope.

Even out West, you've got Detroit (Lidstrom, Chelios & Hatcher), Colorado (Foote & Blake), Dallas (Numminen & Zubov?), Vancouver (Jovanovski), Edmonton (Brewer?), St. Louis (Pronger & MacInnis) and...not much else, eh?

I wonder what Sydor would have cost the Leafs to get if they'd been in that three-way instead of Columbus. He would have fit in great.

Do you have to repeat your stupid point in every single thread on the Leafs board?

At least have the temerity to say "I might have been wrong about hearing Quinn refuse to deal Tucker in that context."

I don't doubt that Quinn told the media he didn't want to deal Darcy. That sure doesn't mean that he wasn't working the phone room trying to use him to get a blueliner in here.

sluggo*

09-23-2003, 07:40 PM

"Do you have to repeat your stupid point in every single thread on the Leafs board?"

I repeat it because others either don't understand that player is needed, or don't want to give up anything to get that player. And no I havn't beenwrong about Tucker, just because others don't bother listening to things like the draft and shows on Mojo or Fan doesn't mean its not true. And no, Quinn didn't tell the media anything, just that several other teams have wanted him (and yes, normally hima nd Antropov are interchangeable) Quinn refused to move him.

Leaf Army

09-24-2003, 04:33 AM

Oh my GOD this is annoying.

WE KNOW THEY NEED ANOTHER GOOD DEFENCEMAN

How many teams have even ONE of these players?

In the East...

Ottawa - Redden. Chara. The top 1-2 punch in the East.
New Jersey - I'd argue that Stevens isn't in the ultra-elite anymore...Niedermayer doesn't fit your standard since he's an offensive defenceman first...ditto Rafalski
Philadelphia - Nope. Desjardins used to be. Johnsson might become one. They've got solid guys 1-6.
NY Rangers - is Kasparitis a "horse"? is he worth $5 million per? I'd say no and no. Leetch is done.
Tampa Bay - nope.
NY Isles - Hamrlik, Niinimaa & Aucoin. I'd put Jonsson a notch below.
Washington - Gonchar is an offensive dynamo, but is he your "horse" either? Sure would love to have him though.
Florida - nope. Bouwmeester's on the way.
Carolina - a solid six, but no clear #1.
Buffalo - Zhitnik...arguably. I'd say he's not a #1 guy on a real contender.
Pittsburgh - nope.
Atlanta - nope.
Boston - nope.
Montreal - nope.

Even out West, you've got Detroit (Lidstrom, Chelios & Hatcher), Colorado (Foote & Blake), Dallas (Numminen & Zubov?), Vancouver (Jovanovski), Edmonton (Brewer?), St. Louis (Pronger & MacInnis) and...not much else, eh?

Very good points.

To be honest, I consider Kaberle to be in the same class as guys like Niinimaa, Numminen and Redden.

Plus if McCabe can play like he did two years ago he's right up there as well.

sluggo*

09-24-2003, 04:55 AM

Kaberle is nowhere near the same level of defenseman that Niinimaa and Redden is. Just in the game against the Sabers he gave the puck away at least 3 times, and was responsible for the Sabers 3rd goal.

nordique

09-24-2003, 05:02 AM

Kaberle is nowhere near the same level of defenseman that Niinimaa and Redden is.

This I agree with, sorta. He's not near Redden, but I'd say he's not that far behind Niinimaa although he's not as good. (He IS, however, in the class of your boy Alexei Zhitnik.

Leaf Army

09-24-2003, 05:11 AM

ACC1224

09-24-2003, 05:12 AM

sluggo*

09-24-2003, 05:15 AM

The stats don't make them as good - Kaberle is nowhere near as good defensivly as either of those two guys.

Zhitnik is a better defenseman then Zhitnik, hes more responsible in his own end and I'd much rather have him then Kaberle on the ice when the game is on the line.

Icewind Dale

09-24-2003, 05:17 AM

Many people seem to equate physical play with defensive ability. It's a very common misconception, but definitely not the case.

Regarding Redden, I'd say they're a lot closer than many people think. You must keep in mind that Redden in a defensive system and plays on a better blueline and, as a result, will look better defensively on a regular basis. Offensively, I don't think you can really compare the two. Kaberle is superior. The only problem I can see is his conditioning. He seems to start off at a very high pace and then tail off a little.

Leaf Army

09-24-2003, 05:21 AM

there is more to playing defense than getting points.

I'm not trying to say one of them is better than the other because they are both great players.

All I'm saying is that Kaberle and Redden are very comparable players. Look at the stats, you can't argue that.

And being a +20 on a team that was only +28 does speak for Kaberle's defensive play.

Icewind Dale

09-24-2003, 05:28 AM

I posted these stats once before. Someone please explain why Redden is considered so much better than Kaberle.

Let's look at the stats from last year.

.......................G......A......P......+/-....Team +/-
Wade Redden....10.....35....45.....+23.....+81
Tomas Kaberle...11.....36....47.....+20.....+28

Keep in mind that Redden was in his 7th NHL season, while Kaberle was playing his 5th NHL season.

It's because people have a hard-on for the Senator defense. They have a great defense, but quite a few people on this site consider every blueliner they have to be one of the best defensemen in the league. I remember a couple weeks ago people were saying we should get Shane Hnidy from them because he'd be a definite upgrade to what we have. As if :rolleyes:. Definitely not the case.

Player for player they have an impressive defense, but many don't take into effect how important a defensive system is to their success. A more recent transition to a defensive system would be Philadelphia. Their defense was pathetic before Hitch came in and started employing the trap. Notice they went from being a defensively below-average team to one of the top defensive teams in the league?

In terms of the debate here. Redden is better overall than Kaberle. But not by much.

sluggo*

09-24-2003, 05:31 AM

ACC1224

09-24-2003, 05:33 AM

I'm not trying to say one of them is better than the other because they are both great players.

All I'm saying is that Kaberle and Redden are very comparable players. Look at the stats, you can't argue that.

And being a +20 on a team that was only +28 does speak for Kaberle's defensive play.

I agree they are comparable, I'd give a slight edge to Redden.

If you could have your choice of either, who do you take?

Leaf Army

09-24-2003, 05:34 AM

It's because people have a hard-on for the Senator defense. They have a great defense, but quite a few people on this site consider every blueliner they have to be one of the best defensemen in the league. I remember a couple weeks ago people were saying we should get Shane Hnidy from them because he'd be a definite upgrade to what we have. As if :rolleyes:. Definitely not the case.

Player for player they have an impressive defense, but many don't take into effect how important a defensive system is to their success. A more recent transition to a defensive system would be Philadelphia. Their defense was pathetic before Hitch came in and started employing the trap. Notice they went from being a defensively below-average team to one of the top defensive teams in the league?

In terms of the debate here. Redden is better overall than Kaberle. But not by much.

I agree with everything you've said.

Another example is a team like Minnesota. Man for man our defence is far superior to their's. But their system makes them look like heroes.

Leaf Army

09-24-2003, 05:39 AM

I agree they are comparable, I'd give a slight edge to Redden.

If you could have your choice of either, who do you take?

Right now I'd take Redden. But Kaberle's younger and has far less NHL experience and he's already almost as good as Redden. So it's hard to tell who I'd take over the long haul.

Icewind Dale

09-24-2003, 05:41 AM

Kaberle is a step down from Redden. Kaberle gets pushed around and don't stop shots from being taken on net. All he does is clear the puck after the first shot is taken (which is why during the playoffs, when Belfour wasn't making as many first saves Kaberle was a -6). You don't have to be a great hitter to be a top D-man, but you have to a least be able to hold your own and Kaberle can't, he gets pushed around. Like said against the Saberes Kaberle caused their 3rd goal, he couldn't even move Pyatt out of the crease (he should have known better and taken someone else and let someone who can move Pyatt cover him) and just screened Centomo's vision. A guy who stands in front of the goalie, screening them, trying to move a player they can't isn't a top level D-man, top level D-manknow better.

Hes questionable defensivly, and thats all there is to it. If its the last minute of a game, the Leafs are up by one and out numbered 5-6 or 6-4 Kaberle is NOT a defenseman I want on the ice. Hes not a top defenseman and the Leafs need one.

A slight step down from Redden.

Kaberle might be soft, but he doesn't really get pushed around all that often and most definitely does stop shots from getting to the net. We've already established this with evidence yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Oh well, not our problem if you can't admit you're wrong.

Kaberle is solid defensively. Since you've yet been unable to disprove that I guess we'll just accept it as fact. Afterall, "it's not my fault you don't watch the games". The Leafs don't need a top defenseman. They have one in Kaberle. What they need is a #3 and #4 defenseman and one may come in the form of Jackman if he continues his play.

Leaf Army

09-24-2003, 05:53 AM

Kaberle is a step down from Redden. Kaberle gets pushed around and don't stop shots from being taken on net. All he does is clear the puck after the first shot is taken (which is why during the playoffs, when Belfour wasn't making as many first saves Kaberle was a -6). You don't have to be a great hitter to be a top D-man, but you have to a least be able to hold your own and Kaberle can't, he gets pushed around. Like said against the Saberes Kaberle caused their 3rd goal, he couldn't even move Pyatt out of the crease (he should have known better and taken someone else and let someone who can move Pyatt cover him) and just screened Centomo's vision. A guy who stands in front of the goalie, screening them, trying to move a player they can't isn't a top level D-man, top level D-manknow better.

Hes questionable defensivly, and thats all there is to it. If its the last minute of a game, the Leafs are up by one and out numbered 5-6 or 6-4 Kaberle is NOT a defenseman I want on the ice. Hes not a top defenseman and the Leafs need one.

Here's a sample of the TSN scouting report on Redden.
"Redden needs to play a more physical game and initiate contact with greater frequency."

Forecaster scouting report.
"Redden needs to play with more of an edge."

The point is that sure Kaberle could be better at the physical aspect of the game.

But so could Redden, and that hasn't stopped people from calling him a "horse" and a "legit #1 guy."

If Kaberle is such a poor defensive player, how do you account for him being +20 on a team that was only +28? That is a remarkable accomplishment.

Especially considering Redden was only +23 on the Senators.

Dar

09-24-2003, 06:06 AM

From September 17th:

Originally Posted by Sluggo

f its game 7, the Leafs are up by on and down a man in the last minute Kaberle, a guy who gets pushed around, can't contain players, can't clear the net, does nothing to stop shots from taken and really only clears the puck after the goalie makes a save, isn't a guy I want to see on the ice.

What I said then:
Originally Posted by Dar

2. Kaberle most certainly is a guy you want in that position because in the last minute of play when the opposing team is down by a goal the general tactic is to dump the puck into the corner, forecheck and get an extra attacker onto the ice. Kaberle is the Leafs' best d-man at getting to the puck first and clearing the zone.

And today:

Originally Posted by Sluggo

Hes questionable defensivly, and thats all there is to it. If its the last minute of a game, the Leafs are up by one and out numbered 5-6 or 6-4 Kaberle is NOT a defenseman I want on the ice. Hes not a top defenseman and the Leafs need one.

What I say now:

Round and Round we Go http://burns.thefinaldimension.org/cwm/cwm/uhoh3.gif http://burns.thefinaldimension.org/cwm/cwm/uhoh3.gif

sluggo*

09-24-2003, 07:11 AM

other guys like McCabe or the fowards can move the puck out of the Leafs zone in that situation, Kaberle isn't hte only one. But he wuld get pushed around and be unable to contain a player ont he boards, he'd allow shots on net, which isn't what you want.

"Kaberle might be soft, but he doesn't really get pushed around all that often and most definitely does stop shots from getting to the net. We've already established"

See Dale you saying it doesn't establish it, you have no idea what your talking about (and you don't think they need a top d-man, which just shows you are really clueless). Kaberle allows lots of shots on net, and was directly responsible for the Sabers second/third goal on Sunday. He gets pushed around (hell, Kapanen pushed him around in the playoffs), he buckless under pressure (what Leaf_Army said about him), can't contain players on the boards and does nothign to stop shots being taken. Hes not a good defensive player, hes a great offensive D-man.

Leafarmy - again, why look at scouting reports on players who havebeen in the NHL for years? Thats stupid. And no Redden doesn't come at players like a Blake or Bertuzzi does, but he doesn't get pushed around liek Kaberle does.

nordique

09-24-2003, 07:11 AM

All I'm saying is that Kaberle and Redden are very comparable players. Look at the stats, you can't argue that.
.

Does that make them both better than Adam Foote, whose stats weren't as impressive, or worse than Dan Boyle, who outscored both?

Leaf Army

09-24-2003, 07:29 AM

Does that make them both better than Adam Foote, whose stats weren't as impressive, or worse than Dan Boyle, who outscored both?

I wasn't just comparing their scoring, I compared their +/- as well.

Foote was a +30 and Boyle was a +9.

Leaf Army

09-24-2003, 07:33 AM

he buckless under pressure (what Leaf_Army said about him), can't contain players on the boards and does nothign to stop shots being taken. Hes not a good defensive player, hes a great offensive D-man.

Leafarmy - again, why look at scouting reports on players who havebeen in the NHL for years? Thats stupid. And no Redden doesn't come at players like a Blake or Bertuzzi does, but he doesn't get pushed around liek Kaberle does.

First of all, when did I ever say that Kaberle buckles under pressure? You're putting words into my mouth again.

Secondly, what's wrong with me posting scouting reports? I'm merely backing up my points with evidence. Something you have NEVER done.

Leaf Army

09-24-2003, 07:49 AM

When I first posted the Kaberle/ Redden comparison, I didn't mean to start another infamous Kaberle debate.

But this is my point. Everyone says that the Leafs don't have a good enough #1 defenceman. Apparently they can't compete for the Cup until they get that "horse" back there.

No one ever questions whether Ottawa has that horse. Everyone just points to Redden. My point is that Kaberle and Redden are very similar players. At this stage, Redden is a bit better than Kaberle but not much.

loveshack2

09-24-2003, 07:57 AM

other guys like McCabe or the fowards can move the puck out of the Leafs zone in that situation, Kaberle isn't hte only one.

This sentence tell me more about your understanding of the game of hockey than anything else written in this entire thread.

Moving the puck, skating the puck out of the defensive zone, being able to see passing lanes and make accurate, crisp passes is one of the most under-rated and yet essential ingredients to a hockey team's success. Tomas Kaberle has those skills in abundance. The only other player on the team who matches Kaberle in that department is perhaps Alexander Mogilny.

sluggo*

09-24-2003, 08:43 AM

"First of all, when did I ever say that Kaberle buckles under pressure?"

You said Kaberle's poor playoff preformce was because the Flyers put pressure on him during the series. So basically you said he buckled under pressure.

Redden is a better defenseman and much more responsible defensely then Kaberle is.

"Tomas Kaberle has those skills in abundance. The only other player on the team who matches Kaberle in that department is perhaps Alexander Mogilny"

McCabe can clear the puck (those the other skills aren't there), Sundin, Nieuwendyk and Mogilny can all do it as well. Even Jackman has shown some skill the puck and could probably clear the zone just fine. The Leafs have other players who can get rid of that puck after a shot is taken and play better defensivly then Kaberle. Hes not a guy I want to see out there int hat situtation.

Leaf Army

09-24-2003, 09:02 AM

You said Kaberle's poor playoff preformce was because the Flyers put pressure on him during the series. So basically you said he buckled under pressure.

No I didn't say that at all. I said that the Flyers targeted him and Svehla.

The Leafs targeted Scott Stevens a couple years ago and Stevens was ineffective for the whole series. It can happen to the best of them.

The difference is that the Devils had a very deep defence so they were able to withstand it. The Leafs problem last year was that they had two major weak-links in Lumme and Housley.

The vast majority of the time, Kaberle performs extemely well under pressure.

Dar

09-24-2003, 09:03 AM

"First of all, when did I ever say that Kaberle buckles under pressure?"

You said Kaberle's poor playoff preformce was because the Flyers put pressure on him during the series. So basically you said he buckled under pressure.

Way to take something someone said, omit some words or phrases and then interpret it to your own satisfaction. :rolleyes: You make me feel like I'm watching the whole provincial leader debate last night all over again, constantly repeating yourself, not proving yourself, slandering and thinking that you're the only one that's right, whilst attacking and misusing other posters comments. Debating genius you are not, and I normally refrain from insults but your constant bickering about others being idiots, blind, morons etc. (got a little time out for that one before, eh?), not to mention your thinking faster than you type (the typos and spelling errors speak volumes on that) is becomming beyond the point of irritating.

Constantly you say, why is this the only board that doesn't see your point of view, well, if anyone were to care to take a jaunt over to wowhockey.com and notice that there's a poster there also called Sluggo with the same opinions and terrible grammar who appears to be saying the same thing over there (coincidence?). Difference is, they let you get away with your jibberish and insults it seems. You seem to have a little cat fight going with TheGreatOne there on various similar issues.

I agree with you on the Tucker is not untouchable and the fact that the Leafs in order to become a contender needs to address the defensive situation, but frankly when 9 out of 10 doctors recommend advil for headaches, general consensus would state that their right.

Best thing to do? Shut up about your lonely opinions of Kaberle, stick to discussing other things, and unless your willing to put up statistics or "properly" quote reputable sources then don't bother disagreeing with anything that anyone says.

**Rant off**

Darth Milbury

09-24-2003, 03:00 PM

A slight step down from Redden.

Kaberle might be soft, but he doesn't really get pushed around all that often and most definitely does stop shots from getting to the net. We've already established this with evidence yet you refuse to acknowledge it. Oh well, not our problem if you can't admit you're wrong.

Kaberle is solid defensively. Since you've yet been unable to disprove that I guess we'll just accept it as fact. Afterall, "it's not my fault you don't watch the games". The Leafs don't need a top defenseman. They have one in Kaberle. What they need is a #3 and #4 defenseman and one may come in the form of Jackman if he continues his play.

Just out of curiosity, why do some of you describe Kaberle as "soft." He never struck me as being a particularly physical player. But, he doens't seem to back down at all. He is like Kenny Jonnson on the Islanders.

Icewind Dale

09-24-2003, 05:54 PM

See Dale you saying it doesn't establish it, you have no idea what your talking about (and you don't think they need a top d-man, which just shows you are really clueless). Kaberle allows lots of shots on net, and was directly responsible for the Sabers second/third goal on Sunday. He gets pushed around (hell, Kapanen pushed him around in the playoffs), he buckless under pressure (what Leaf_Army said about him), can't contain players on the boards and does nothign to stop shots being taken. Hes not a good defensive player, hes a great offensive D-man.

No, but having everyone else pretty much acknowledge it and provide statistics to back up their argument does establish it. You're in the minority of people who think Kaberle is a defensive liability. Have you ever asked yourself that? No, because you don't wish to admit that you don't know what you're talking about.

You constantly bring up these ideas that make no sense and when people shoot them down you simply can't handle it.

Regarding Kaberle. He does not allow a lot of shots against. Dar proved this with statistics that specifically contradicted this theory. You countered by ignoring those statistics and proceeded to tell Dar that he "doesn't watch the game". Let me guess, the stat keepers don't watch the games, either, right? Kaberle is a solid two-way player and a #1 defenseman. You've yet to disprove that.

The only thing you've proven so far is that you have no idea what you're talking about whenever you decide to open your mouth. Ever. Instead of trying to force your ignorant and lonely opinions on others, why don't you stop and think about why everyone seems to disagree with you. When pretty much every Leaf fan on the board disagrees with you, it's most likely because you're wrong.

Icewind Dale

09-24-2003, 05:58 PM

Just out of curiosity, why do some of you describe Kaberle as "soft." He never struck me as being a particularly physical player. But, he doens't seem to back down at all. He is like Kenny Jonnson on the Islanders.

I think it has something to do with the idea that he rarely initiates contact. I mean, he'll rub a guy out on the boards quite often, but you'll rarely see him make a true hit. Not that it matters much. You don't need to be physical to be effective. And the lack of physical play should, in theory, keep a player healthier.

BlueAndWhite

09-24-2003, 06:18 PM

Just out of curiosity, why do some of you describe Kaberle as "soft." He never struck me as being a particularly physical player. But, he doens't seem to back down at all. He is like Kenny Jonnson on the Islanders.

You seem to forget, that you are talking to Leaf fans.

Soft (in the minds of the GENERAL POPULATIOn of Leaf fans) = Not Darcy Tucker, Gary Roberts, Bryan McCabe, etc.

If you are not mean, don't take stupid penalties, hit everything in sight, and did not pass through the OHL, WHL or QMJHL, then you are soft, for the most part.

p.l.f.

09-24-2003, 06:26 PM

finesse might be a better word.

soft sounds like gutless, which kaberle is not

Nik#11

09-24-2003, 06:29 PM

Just out of curiosity, why do some of you describe Kaberle as "soft." He never struck me as being a particularly physical player. But, he doens't seem to back down at all. He is like Kenny Jonnson on the Islanders.

Because a significant number of Leaf fans (only one in this thread, mind you) are idiots who think a player is useless unless he runs around like a chicken with its head cut off hitting everything in site. I guess after 36 years of losing some fans don't know what it really takes to win and just want entertainment.

Remember, this is a city where a significant number of people calling into radio shows wanted Tie Domi to be the captain after Doug Gilmour was traded.

sluggo*

09-25-2003, 03:43 AM

"Because a significant number of Leaf fans (only one in this thread, mind you) are idiots who think a player is useless unless he runs around like a chicken with its head cut off hitting everything in site"

I've never said hes usless, far from it. Kaberle is just questionable on defense and his value is as an offensive weapon from the blue line. After they take a shot and the Leafs get the puck hes great.

And I'm not saying Domi should be the Captain, however a teams captain doesn't have to be its best player, it has to be the teams best leader. Many fans saw what Domi did on the ice and thought he was the teams leader, much more so then Sundin, just like now a lot of fans think Roberts should be the captain because he plays with his heart on his sleeve while Sundin doesn't.