Suspension Debate

two out of three*
03-13-2005, 06:23 PM
Ok.. today in my game (it was a playoff game) it was the last game of a round robin to see who went to the semi finals. We were leading 2-1 at the end of a game, and it was near the end of the game. A guy took a run at me, and I knocked him down but not hard at all it was an easy shoved, and he only went to one knee. As he's skating away he hacks my shin pad with his stick, holds my stick, and baseball swings at my head hitting me. It hurt.. But I skated after him, and as I look over one of their guys takes a run at one of my teammates. The kid on the other team who ran my teammate was on one knee.

I wasn't going to catch the guy who hit me with his stick, so I drilled the kid who was on one knee against the boards, unfortunately right after the horn sounded to end the game. It was like a second or two after the horn sounded. It wasn't from behind, but it was stupid of me to do I know. It took the kid like 10 seconds to get up, but he got up. The hit wasn't all that hard, but it got him pretty good. The original call was a 30 day suspension, but the last I heard was a 5 minute major and a game misconduct. My question to the refs one these boards are, what are your feelings, and what penalty should I receive? Also, earlier that game one of my teammates hit a kid from behind, and only got a 5 minute major, and the hit was way harder than the one I had after the game. Thanks.

Schlep Rock
03-13-2005, 06:51 PM
Ok.. today in my game (it was a playoff game) it was the last game of a round robin to see who went to the semi finals. We were leading 2-1 at the end of a game, and it was near the end of the game. A guy took a run at me, and I knocked him down but not hard at all it was an easy shoved, and he only went to one knee. As he's skating away he hacks my shin pad with his stick, holds my stick, and baseball swings at my head hitting me. It hurt.. But I skated after him, and as I look over one of their guys takes a run at one of my teammates. The kid on the other team who ran my teammate was on one knee.

I wasn't going to catch the guy who hit me with his stick, so I drilled the kid who was on one knee against the boards, unfortunately right after the horn sounded to end the game. It was like a second or two after the horn sounded. It wasn't from behind, but it was stupid of me to do I know. It took the kid like 10 seconds to get up, but he got up. The hit wasn't all that hard, but it got him pretty good. The original call was a 30 day suspension, but the last I heard was a 5 minute major and a game misconduct. My question to the refs one these boards are, what are your feelings, and what penalty should I receive? Also, earlier that game one of my teammates hit a kid from behind, and only got a 5 minute major, and the hit was way harder than the one I had after the game. Thanks.

I don't really follow this whole story but since when do the ref's determine the suspensions?

BCCHL inactive
03-13-2005, 08:24 PM
There is no penalty in any rulebook where a referee can assess a suspension. All referees do is call the penalties and write any reports required. Whatever league/association that governs the game will decide on a suspension based on the referee's report.

In simple terms, the refs have nothing to do with how long you might have to sit out.

two out of three*
03-13-2005, 11:45 PM
There is no penalty in any rulebook where a referee can assess a suspension. All referees do is call the penalties and write any reports required. Whatever league/association that governs the game will decide on a suspension based on the referee's report.

In simple terms, the refs have nothing to do with how long you might have to sit out.

Thats true, I guess the ref just suggests it in the report.. I know you didn't see it, but what would you have given me?

BCCHL inactive
03-14-2005, 04:59 AM
Thats true, I guess the ref just suggests it in the report.. I know you didn't see it, but what would you have given me?

Referees cannot suggest suspensions in reports. If he does, the league will disregard it (or remove it from the report) and make the decision based on the written description of the incident and any video, shall it be available.

Based on your description, if you hit a guy after the buzzer when he is already on his knees at the boards, and he's not even the guy who got you, I'm thinking intent to injure. It may not be your intention, but as a referee, my thinking would be that you just got nailed with a stick to the head and you're obviously looking to lay a licking on somebody. If you get the guy who got you, I might take it a little easy with the penalties as long as you don't go overboard in your retaliation. However, going after somebody else, who is already in a semi-defenseless position, erases any retaliation consideration in my mind, and I'd be more likely to throw the book at you too.

Either way, being a major incident, I would consult with my linesmen to get their opinions before making my final call.

All I can say for sure, is that I would call at least a major (I know in USA Hockey a Game Misconduct is not automatic with majors), with possibilities of a Match Penalty (intent to injure) and/or a Gross Misconduct (making a travesty of the game).

WhoozYerrDaddy
03-14-2005, 09:35 AM
There is no penalty in any rulebook where a referee can assess a suspension.

Not completely true. In the USA Hockey book, Rule 404(d) automatically SUSPENDS the coach for one game if his team accumulates fifteen penalties in one game. The coach is not removed from the bench after the fifteenth penalty. He is allowed to finish the game and he serves his suspension at the next scheduled game of that team at that time. It is NOT a Game Misconduct against the coach. GMs against coaches are reserved for 'misconduct' on the bench.

However, the league (not the refs)may increase the suspension at their discretion under the 'Supplementary Discipline' rule.

Your point is taken about suspending players, though. Officials do not suspend players, leagues or associations do.

Also, effective with the 2003-04 USA Hockey rulebook, all references to gross misconducts have been removed. We no longer have that option.

Daddy

Sixty Six
03-14-2005, 11:30 AM
I know when i ref that anytime i give a guy a game misconduct it also comes with a once game suspension however if you feel the that someone deserves to be thrown out of the game and not suspended you give him a game ejection. I believe a match penalty is an automatic 2 or 3 game suspension, but i don't remmber, this does allow a ref to somewhat give a suspension out imo what you did was wrong and i might have give you match but 30 days is too long imo

usmhuskies
03-14-2005, 03:09 PM
Game misconduct with a match penalty(intent to injure) have fun sitting out the next game... :)

BCCHL inactive
03-14-2005, 08:21 PM
Your point is taken about suspending players, though. Officials do not suspend players, leagues or associations do.


That was my point. We have a few penalties in the Hockey Canada rulebook that automatically suspend players and coaches, but it's not up to the on-ice officials to enforce...and referees certainly cannot assess a suspension.


Game misconduct with a match penalty(intent to injure) have fun sitting out the next game... :)

Why would you call both a Match and a Game Misconduct? A Match kicks you out of the game as it is.

FLYLine24
03-14-2005, 09:18 PM
Ok.. today in my game (it was a playoff game) it was the last game of a round robin to see who went to the semi finals. We were leading 2-1 at the end of a game, and it was near the end of the game. A guy took a run at me, and I knocked him down but not hard at all it was an easy shoved, and he only went to one knee. As he's skating away he hacks my shin pad with his stick, holds my stick, and baseball swings at my head hitting me. It hurt.. But I skated after him, and as I look over one of their guys takes a run at one of my teammates. The kid on the other team who ran my teammate was on one knee.

I wasn't going to catch the guy who hit me with his stick, so I drilled the kid who was on one knee against the boards, unfortunately right after the horn sounded to end the game. It was like a second or two after the horn sounded. It wasn't from behind, but it was stupid of me to do I know. It took the kid like 10 seconds to get up, but he got up. The hit wasn't all that hard, but it got him pretty good. The original call was a 30 day suspension, but the last I heard was a 5 minute major and a game misconduct. My question to the refs one these boards are, what are your feelings, and what penalty should I receive? Also, earlier that game one of my teammates hit a kid from behind, and only got a 5 minute major, and the hit was way harder than the one I had after the game. Thanks.

You'll get the automatic 1 game suspension. Thats it. This is USA rules right?

usmhuskies
03-14-2005, 09:46 PM
That was my point. We have a few penalties in the Hockey Canada rulebook that automatically suspend players and coaches, but it's not up to the on-ice officials to enforce...and referees certainly cannot assess a suspension.




Why would you call both a Match and a Game Misconduct? A Match kicks you out of the game as it is.


I kind of typed that out wrong : I meant a match peanlty which would lead to a game misconduct...

two out of three*
03-14-2005, 10:26 PM
You'll get the automatic 1 game suspension. Thats it. This is USA rules right?

Yeah, USA rules..

I did get the 5 minute major. It was at the end of the 3rd, so the game was over.

two out of three*
03-14-2005, 10:41 PM
Game misconduct with a match penalty(intent to injure) have fun sitting out the next game... :)

Well.. yeah it was pretty stupid. I should've controlled myself, but it was one of those heat of the moment things. I dont have a temper, and i dont play cheap, but w/e lesson learned. I shoudl've known they were going to try and do that to me because their season was over.

FLYLine24
03-15-2005, 09:55 AM
Yeah, USA rules..

I did get the 5 minute major. It was at the end of the 3rd, so the game was over.

Well its the Game Misconduct that got you the suspension.

KariyaIsGod*
03-15-2005, 11:05 AM
Well.. yeah it was pretty stupid. I should've controlled myself, but it was one of those heat of the moment things. I dont have a temper, and i dont play cheap, but w/e lesson learned. I shoudl've known they were going to try and do that to me because their season was over.

Just learn to take these things to the parking lot...

bleedgreen
03-15-2005, 12:00 PM
a match penalty means you are automatically suspended - indefinitely - until your governing body has an official meeting about the incident, i believe you are allowed to at least speak your case at the meeting (or maybe allowed to present a written plea). if a month goes by without a meeting then the month serves as your suspension and you can come back. this may be what your league automatically does in the case of a match penalty - gives you a month and doesnt do anything else.

in the case of a match, a 5 minute major must be served as well (by a teamate of course), but obviously since it was after the game that didnt apply here.

this is all straight out of usa hockeys rule book. i dont know that this is what you got, but it lines up with the suspension time. this is the only way a ref controls the suspension. a five and a game gets you an extra game, a match gets you a month more or less based on the meeting.

would i have given you a match? i dont know, matches are for the worst of all situations...in my book anyway. bertuzzi, mcsorley type of stuff. i didnt see it, but one thing i know is that the way a person involved remembers it and the way a ref or anyone unbiased does are usually polar opposites, no offense. you deserve a suspension if you carried on and laid someone out after the game. during the game, if its a big enough illegal hit, you would get the 5 and a game. after the the game is considered much more serious though, if it appeared (at the time of the hit, not later) the player was injured and you showed intent to injure (in the refs opinion) - you could geta match. the way you make it sound it doesnt sound that bad, but your tone sounds eerily familar to about every person ive ever tossed from a game for a rough/board/charge/fight etc..etc..

dont know if this helps at all. good luck.

usmhuskies
03-15-2005, 01:21 PM
Well.. yeah it was pretty stupid. I should've controlled myself, but it was one of those heat of the moment things. I dont have a temper, and i dont play cheap, but w/e lesson learned. I shoudl've known they were going to try and do that to me because their season was over.

Don't beat youself up about: just learn a lesson...I WAS a dirty player when I was your age (117 PIMS in 20 Games)...It's tough to be on the ice in that situation(other team has nothing to lose by running you)...

BCCHL inactive
03-15-2005, 08:19 PM
I kind of typed that out wrong : I meant a match peanlty which would lead to a game misconduct...

Where does the Game Misconduct come from? With a Match Penalty, the player is out of the game with just that.

You don't assess a Match and a Game, you assess a Match.

FLYLine24
03-15-2005, 09:02 PM
I kind of typed that out wrong : I meant a match peanlty which would lead to a game misconduct...

What you mean...A match penalty would lead to a being ejected from the game..which would be the same consequence as a game misconduct...but of course a Match is also a major penalty and possibly more serious consequences in the future.

two out of three*
03-15-2005, 09:08 PM
Just to clarify.. I dont have a suspension yet, but i believe the league is debating whether to hand me the game misconduct. (which would be the semi-final game.)

FLYLine24
03-15-2005, 09:17 PM
Just to clarify.. I dont have a suspension yet, but i believe the league is debating whether to hand me the game misconduct. (which would be the semi-final game.)

Hmm..dont understand that...when you received the Game Misconduct that follows an automatic 1 game suspension.

BCCHL inactive
03-15-2005, 10:33 PM
What you mean...A match penalty would lead to a being ejected from the game..which would be the same consequence as a game misconduct...but of course a Match is also a major penalty and possibly more serious consequences in the future.

I'm not familiar with USA Hockey definitions, but in Canada, Match penalties are in a class of their own. They put 5:00 on the board, just as a Major Penalty does.


Hmm..dont understand that...when you received the Game Misconduct that follows an automatic 1 game suspension.

What he is saying, is that the league is deciding whether or not he will have the Game Misconduct on his record. Leagues can recind penalties if they have just cause. If the referee called one, however, I think it should stand. A league would lose my respect if the only explanation they had was "difference of opinion", of which a number of politically correct explanations can translate into.

two out of three*
03-16-2005, 01:27 AM
Ok.. I got the game misconduct w/ the 5 minute major penalty. I think its the right call. Although a lot of people who saw the game (which I think attendance was like 150-175 people) came up to me, and said I don't deserve anything. But I hit a kid after the game was over so something obviously needs to be handed out. I was hoping along the lines of a 10 minute misconduct. (of course because it wouldn't matter right?)

FLYLine24
03-16-2005, 10:11 AM
I'm not familiar with USA Hockey definitions, but in Canada, Match penalties are in a class of their own. They put 5:00 on the board, just as a Major Penalty does.

I was going to put 5 min down instead of Major..but Mite and Squirt is only 4 minutes for a major...which is why i wrote Major instead of 5 minutes.




What he is saying, is that the league is deciding whether or not he will have the Game Misconduct on his record. Leagues can recind penalties if they have just cause. If the referee called one, however, I think it should stand. A league would lose my respect if the only explanation they had was "difference of opinion", of which a number of politically correct explanations can translate into.

I agree..if the League took away a Game Misconduct that the referee had put down on the score sheet then it would be a joke...and look like there playing favorites...which could lead to not so good consequences toward the league if someone found out.

Douggy
03-16-2005, 10:29 AM
After reading this thread and the other officiating thread, I have to say the USA has some VERY inconsistant rules, or atleast they way they are being described seems inconsistant. :)

WhoozYerrDaddy
03-16-2005, 11:09 AM
After reading this thread and the other officiating thread, I have to say the USA has some VERY inconsistant rules, or atleast they way they are being described seems inconsistant. :)

I wouldn't call the USA Hockey rulebook inconsistent. I would call the way the rules are applied as inconsistent. True, there will be inconsistencies whenever the human factor is applied. However, the problem I have is the discussions about whether the leagues or the associations overturn game misconducts that are assessed.

That being said, however, I do agree that USA officials seem to have a lot more discretion on assessing penalties. For example, I believe that any check from behind is a major + game misconduct in Canada, but we have more options. I could give somebody a minor, minor plus misconduct, major, major + game, or a match penalty.

Sometimes, more options create more confusion, (or what are perceived as inconsistencies), especially when there are different rulebooks involved.

When I officiate a game between a Canadian team and an American team, I almost always have to go over the differences in Canadian and American rules with the Canadian coach before a game begins. Not a big deal, it just gets a little redundant at times.

Daddy

BCCHL inactive
03-16-2005, 02:18 PM
I believe that any check from behind is a major + game misconduct in Canada


Close...Options for a CFB are..

2 + Game
5 + Game
Match

Any way you call it, the player is gone from the game if he is guilty of a CFB.

Spearing and Butt-Ending are other rules where our options are limited to a double minor (4:00) or a Match penalty.

bleedgreen
03-16-2005, 02:29 PM
usa options on checking from behind:

minor plus a misconduct (it doesnt specify a ten minute, just says misconduct - i call it a ten)
major plus a game if : player is injured (required by the book to call it), player was shoved into the boards or goal frame head first (regardless of injury - also to be called regardless of refs opinion)

FLYLine24
03-16-2005, 02:42 PM
Close...Options for a CFB are..

2 + Game
5 + Game
Match

Any way you call it, the player is gone from the game if he is guilty of a CFB.

Spearing and Butt-Ending are other rules where our options are limited to a double minor (4:00) or a Match penalty.

Wow..2 and a game for an open ice...checking from behind? Now thats what I call harash...the player could turn and the kid gets bumped from behind..falls down but no harm done..bam..game misconduct. I hope they dont have a automatic Game suspension with a Game misconduct in Canada..that would be way 2 harsh. Into the boards or goal frame though..yes should be game.

FLYLine24
03-16-2005, 02:43 PM
BTW...I heard a rumor that New York State is thinking of using "FEDERATION" rules next season and getting rid of USA rules. That would be something...dont know federation rules that well but I know they have a seperate penalty for a late hit..which would be called A LOT...since most coaches tell there players to finish the check.

FLYLine24
03-16-2005, 02:46 PM
usa options on checking from behind:

minor plus a misconduct (it doesnt specify a ten minute, just says misconduct - i call it a ten)
major plus a game if : player is injured (required by the book to call it), player was shoved into the boards or goal frame head first (regardless of injury - also to be called regardless of refs opinion)

It doesnt specify 10 minutes because in Mite and Squirt a misconduct is 7 1/2 minutes.

two out of three*
03-16-2005, 04:25 PM
usa options on checking from behind:

minor plus a misconduct (it doesnt specify a ten minute, just says misconduct - i call it a ten)
major plus a game if : player is injured (required by the book to call it), player was shoved into the boards or goal frame head first (regardless of injury - also to be called regardless of refs opinion)

I believe thats what they got me for. Because I hit him when he was facing me, but the angle of the hit I think put into the boards head first, so they called a major plus a game. I didn't mean to put his head into the boards, but thats what happened.

BCCHL inactive
03-16-2005, 08:34 PM
minor plus a misconduct (it doesnt specify a ten minute, just says misconduct - i call it a ten)


There is no official term "10 Minute Misconduct". In the book, it is a Misconduct, which carries a 10-minute penalty that does not make the team shorthanded.


Wow..2 and a game for an open ice...checking from behind? Now thats what I call harash...the player could turn and the kid gets bumped from behind..falls down but no harm done..bam..game misconduct. I hope they dont have a automatic Game suspension with a Game misconduct in Canada..that would be way 2 harsh. Into the boards or goal frame though..yes should be game.

Up here, we don't differentiate open ice and on the boards when it comes to checking from behind. A CFB is a CFB. The onus has always been on the player delivering the hit to stop when he sees an opponent's back (all minor players in BC have stop signs on the back of their jerseys). Although I would like the power to assess an Unsportsmanlike minor or a dime (at my discretion) for those who turn their backs, a CFB is a CFB.

As for automatic suspensions, any Game Misconduct in the last 10 minutes of a game carries an automatic one-game suspension.

bleedgreen
03-17-2005, 11:45 AM
There is no official term "10 Minute Misconduct". In the book, it is a Misconduct, which carries a 10-minute penalty that does not make the team shorthanded.

my fault, i just put it up without really looking at it. i thought it was saying a misconduct as in possibly an unsportsmanlike or a 10. i was looking for it to say 2 and a ten - and it only said misconduct - which confused my small ref brain. of course, im mostly blind anyway - dont know why im trying to read. ;)

Malefic74
03-17-2005, 04:00 PM
BTW...I heard a rumor that New York State is thinking of using "FEDERATION" rules next season and getting rid of USA rules. That would be something...dont know federation rules that well but I know they have a seperate penalty for a late hit..which would be called A LOT...since most coaches tell there players to finish the check.

Finishing your check and hitting late are two very different things.

I believe the STOP patches are throughout Canada Van. I know for a fact they are used here in Alberta. And a minor for deliberately turning your back to draw the big penalties would be very welcome around these parts.

usmhuskies
03-17-2005, 05:00 PM
What you mean...A match penalty would lead to a being ejected from the game..which would be the same consequence as a game misconduct...but of course a Match is also a major penalty and possibly more serious consequences in the future.


Yes that is exactly what I meant...

FLYLine24
03-17-2005, 05:05 PM
Finishing your check and hitting late are two very different things.

I believe the STOP patches are throughout Canada Van. I know for a fact they are used here in Alberta. And a minor for deliberately turning your back to draw the big penalties would be very welcome around these parts.

Very different things..not by a longshot. If the player passes the puck and the guy he passes it to recieves it..that player is no longer allowed to be checked...that could have been a 1 second pass...in that 1 second the player could have stopped. If he decides to "finish" his hit then he will recieve a penalty...there is no such thing as finishing your check in USA hockey and if you want to do that..then enjoy your many trips to the penalty box. Though it is rarely called unless its a good 2-3 seconds after the player gets rid of the puck..it is still a penalty.

Could you explain to me how..Finishing your check and hitting late are 2 very different things? This is puzzling me. If there is enough time for the player to stop when the player releases the puck then he is suppose to stop. So if hes 5 feet away then that would be PLENTY of time to stop...if he doesnt...finishes his hit..then its a late hit. (BTW this is all USA rules definitions)

BCCHL inactive
03-17-2005, 06:40 PM
Could you explain to me how..Finishing your check and hitting late are 2 very different things? This is puzzling me. If there is enough time for the player to stop when the player releases the puck then he is suppose to stop. So if hes 5 feet away then that would be PLENTY of time to stop...if he doesnt...finishes his hit..then its a late hit. (BTW this is all USA rules definitions)

Up here, a player is in possession of the puck until somebody else gains possession and control (except goaltenders, who lose possession immediately when they get rid of the puck). Until then, he can be subject to a legal bodycheck. Of course, we can use our judgment for a blatantly late hit, but if a player already has the puck carrier lined up, as long as his check doesn't break any other rules, it's a legal play to finish the check.

Malefic74
03-18-2005, 06:49 PM
Up here, a player is in possession of the puck until somebody else gains possession and control (except goaltenders, who lose possession immediately when they get rid of the puck). Until then, he can be subject to a legal bodycheck. Of course, we can use our judgment for a blatantly late hit, but if a player already has the puck carrier lined up, as long as his check doesn't break any other rules, it's a legal play to finish the check.

Beat me to it. As a general rule refs I know generally say that an extra stride makes the call. The carrier has the puck and a defender is moving to hit them, the carrier then passes the puck off when the defender is within 5 - 10 feet. If the defender takes another stride and then hits the carrier, it's a late hit. If he continues into the carrier with momentum he already had it's finishing a check. They also say anything from more than 15 feet away is always ruled a late hit.