My opening day Roster...

As discussd below with 1 trade Tucker & Berg & ?? for Zhitnik..

So after the Zhitnik trade

That would leave the Roster as follows....

Mikael Renberg....Mats Sundin..........Owen Nolan
A Ponikarovsky....Nik Antropov.........Alexander Mogilny
Gary Roberts......Joe Nieuwendyk......Matt Stajan
Travis Green.......Robert Reichel.......Tie Domi

Tomas Kaberle........Maxim Kondratiev
Alexei Zhitnik.........Carlo Colaiacovo
Bryan McCabe........Ric Jackman
Bryan Marchment

Eddie Belfour
Mikael Tellqvist

with extras Fitzgerald & Belak as situational players..

So I think Tucker & Berg would fit better on someone else's team and give the kids a chance while still improving the Defense overall by the addition of Zhitnik..

That's my GM and Coaches hat for today...

As discussd below with 1 trade Tucker & Berg & ?? for Zhitnik..

So after the Zhitnik trade

That would leave the Roster as follows....

Mikael Renberg....Mats Sundin..........Owen Nolan
Gary Roberts......Joe Nieuwendyk......Matt Stajan
A Ponikarovsky....Nik Antropov.........Alexander Mogilny
Travis Green.......Robert Reichel.......Tie Domi

Tomas Kaberle........Maxim Kondratiev
Bryan McCabe........Ric Jackman
Alexei Zhitnik.........Carlo Colaiacovo
Bryan Marchment

Eddie Belfour
Mikael Tellqvist

with extras Fitzgerald & Belak as situational players..

So I think Tucker & Berg would fit better on someone else's team and give the kids a chance while still improving the Defense overall by the addition of Zhitnik..

That's my GM and Coaches hat for today...

Man those are brutal combinations.....

Man those are brutal combinations.....

Matt Stajan?

Man those are brutal combinations.....

Why ??? Please explain....

Mikael Renberg....Mats Sundin..........Owen Nolan
Gary Roberts......Joe Nieuwendyk......Matt Stajan
A Ponikarovsky....Nik Antropov.........Alexander Mogilny
Travis Green.......Robert Reichel.......Tie Domi

Tomas Kaberle........Maxim Kondratiev
Bryan McCabe........Ric Jackman
Alexei Zhitnik.........Carlo Colaiacovo
Bryan Marchment

Eddie Belfour
Mikael Tellqvist


If that's what our lineup will look like with everyone healthy, what's it going to look like once we run into injuries?

Here's my lineup.

Antropov......Sundin...........Mogilny
Roberts........Nieuwendyk.....Nolan
Tucker.........Reichel...........Renberg
Fitzgerald.....Green.............Domi

Kaberle..........McCabe
Jackman........Berg
Marchment.....Kondratiev

Spares
Ponikarovsky
Belak
Pushor

Why ??? Please explain....

could take a while...lets start with your trade for Zhitnik and then put him on the 3rd pairing...Carlo won't even make the team...Stajan, who may not make the team ahead of Mogilny...Maxim on the first pairing...that's all I remember off the top of my head

Matt Stajan?


Yes Stajan.... Good teams like Colorado bring in young kids like Tanguay and play them with Vets like Sakic to develope them..

With Roberts Leadership and work ethic and Nieuwendyk 2 way play and faceoff skills are exacty what will make Stajan a better player... and since this is Gary and Joe's last year in the NHL ...Toronto should take every adantage of their skill sets while they have them NOW...

Also for any of you that got to see the Games in Europe a young player like Immonen look like a future Super Star playing with Roberts and Nieuwendyk against Finland, even to the point of earning Player of the Game honours..

Also ST. Johns will have a very young team and possibly not a very strong one...so even though I believe Stajan needs to add weight and muscle ...the atmosphere in TO would be better than in ST. Johns

& Leafs Vets are always and I mean always injured ..and who would you rather see in the Lineup ...Belak and Fitzgerald or a young player ??

Yes Stajan.... Good teams like Colorado bring in young kids like Tanguay and play them with Vets like Sakic to develope them..

With Roberts Leadership and work ethic and Nieuwendyk 2 way play and faceoff skills are exacty what will make Stajan a better player... and since this is Gary and Joe's last year in the NHL ...Toronto should take every adantage of their skill sets while they have them NOW...

Also for any of you that got to see the Games in Europe a young player like Immonen look like a future Super Star playing with Roberts and Nieuwendyk against Finland, even to the point of earning Player of the Game honours..

Also ST. Johns will have a very young team and possibly not a very strong one...so even though I believe Stajan needs to add weight and muscle ...the atmosphere in TO would be better than in ST. Johns

& Leafs Vets are always and I mean always injured ..and who would you rather see in the Lineup ...Belak and Fitzgerald or a young player ??

Fitzgerald

"Good teams like Colorado bring in young kids like Tanguay and play them with Vets like Sakic to develope them"

Yes, when those young players a ready (and Stajan probably won't be) and they have a hole that needs to be filled. It would benefit Stajan more to spend another year in St. Johns, he can then come up and play with guys like NOlan and Sundin when hes more ready and mature.

could take a while...lets start with your trade for Zhitnik and then put him on the 3rd pairing...Carlo won't even make the team...Stajan, who may not make the team ahead of Mogilny...Maxim on the first pairing...that's all I remember off the top of my head

They where not intended to be in order 1 2 3 etc. ....just the pairings... each group has a Vet and a youngster...


Kaberle and Kondratiev have played well together in Europe and have been inseperable as the kaberle who can communicate in a little bit of Russian is tutoring young Max and has taken him under his wing..

Jackmans style is best suited for McCabe because he would be a good role model to follow both physically and offensively...

Carlo who is an offensive Dman by trade is similar to a young Zhitnik and could learn PP contol and positional defense...

How Quinn dishes out minutes to each group is entirly up to him... but those would be my opening day pairings with the hypothetical trade for Zhitnik...Which is what Toronto says they will do if they see fit..

Do you think that teams play thier Dman in order??
ie ..
#1 with #2
#3 with #4
#5 with #6

Name one team in the NHL that does that??..

Stajan is not intended to make the Team ahead of Mogilny... just that his linemates should be Roberts and Nieuwendyk...

Sundin will always be the #1 line and most likely Mogilny with Antropov will #2 and the old Vets Gary and Joe will be Line #3

My post was more about players and Line-combos then ice time minutes like you think they where..

If that's what our lineup will look like with everyone healthy, what's it going to look like once we run into injuries?

Here's my lineup.

Antropov......Sundin...........Mogilny
Roberts........Nieuwendyk.....Nolan
Tucker.........Reichel...........Renberg
Fitzgerald.....Green.............Domi

Kaberle..........McCabe
Jackman........Berg
Marchment.....Kondratiev

Spares
Ponikarovsky
Belak
Pushor

But your starting Line-up is the OLDEST in the LEAGUE and most injury prone to speak of... and I don't see how you have accounted for injuries... Belak and Pushor??

I was trying to get some younger blood in play them regularly while vets like Fitzgerald could sit..

and address the Defense with the Hypothetical trade fro Zhitnik..

It would benefit Stajan more to spend another year in St. Johns, he can then come up and play with guys like NOlan and Sundin when hes more ready and mature.

Another year in St. John's? He hasn't even played a year in St. John's yet.

Do you think that teams play thier Dman in order??
ie ..
#1 with #2
#3 with #4
#5 with #6

Name one team in the NHL that does that??..


Not exactly, but neither do they play #1 with #6 or #2 with #5. Generally a team will have a "top-4" and then a 3rd pairing. The pairings withing the top 4 might change but those 4 guys are the best on the team and will log the most minutes.

I understand how you had your pairings setup, but *if* the Leafs acquired Zhitnik, then he plus Kaberle and McCabe would makeup 3 of their top-4. I highly doubt Quinn would put one on each pairing.

Not exactly, but neither do they play #1 with #6 or #2 with #5. Generally a team will have a "top-4" and then a 3rd pairing. The pairings withing the top 4 might change but those 4 guys are the best on the team and will log the most minutes.

I understand how you had your pairings setup, but *if* the Leafs acquired Zhitnik, then he plus Kaberle and McCabe would makeup 3 of their top-4. I highly doubt Quinn would put one on each pairing.

Thanks I don't have time to explain myself.

But your starting Line-up is the OLDEST in the LEAGUE and most injury prone to speak of... and I don't see how you have accounted for injuries... Belak and Pushor??

I was trying to get some younger blood in play them regularly while vets like Fitzgerald could sit..

and address the Defense with the Hypothetical trade fro Zhitnik..

I understand what you are trying to do and it makes sense. But that lineup you suggested had too many holes.

The Leafs don't have a lot of prospects that are ready to step into the lineup this year, so they aren't holding the young guys back by playing the veterans. Next year may be a different story though.

Guys like Stajan and Colaiacovo will be able to fill in this year when injuries strike though. That'll help ease them into the NHL more gradually.

Fitzgerald

Would you also like changing the name of the Leafs to the Dinosaurs???

I for one am hoping that Reichel, Fitzgerald & Belak's name are on the WAIVER draft AVAILABLE list and that anyone if not all are selected..

and since their is a less than 1% chance of that happening...What does that tell you that 29 other teams don't think that any of these 3 would be an upgrade to their team ...yet you see all 3 comfortably making the Leafs a Stanley Cup Contender..

I personally hope that JFJ clears house and begins the youth movement and brings in his own players and dumps Quinns reclamation projects..

I for one am hoping that Reichel, Fitzgerald & Belak's name are on the WAIVER draft AVAILABLE list and that anyone if not all are selected..

and since their is a less than 1% chance of that happening...What does that tell you that 29 other teams don't think that any of these 3 would be an upgrade to their team ...yet you see all 3 comfortably making the Leafs a Stanley Cup Contender..


No. All it means is that some teams think they make too much for what they're worth and other teams are too afraid of losing one of their protected players to grab them. Gary Valk was a great depth forward for us while he was here yet he passed in the waiver draft twice. Joseph might very well pass in the waiver draft this year yet there's 20 or more teams out there that he would be an upgrade to.

Not exactly, but neither do they play #1 with #6 or #2 with #5. Generally a team will have a "top-4" and then a 3rd pairing. The pairings withing the top 4 might change but those 4 guys are the best on the team and will log the most minutes.

I understand how you had your pairings setup, but *if* the Leafs acquired Zhitnik, then he plus Kaberle and McCabe would makeup 3 of their top-4. I highly doubt Quinn would put one on each pairing.


Yes I agree that is true in general but when you are trying to bring in Kids to play regularly... they also need Veteran leadership and Ice time to develop..

So Leafs and Quinn is kind of caught between rock and a hard place..

If with a Zhitnik trade then Yes along with Kabs an McCabe would be the top 3 and probably giving Jackman the 4th spot...

..that would also put the kids at 5 and 6... with little ice time and playing together which will not work and if you insert Marchment into the 3rd pairing then one of the kids Carlo or Max becomes #7.. Which Quinn has stated he would not do and would be terrible for there development, where as ST Johns would be a better option for the Kids...

So you play Quinn for a moment and assume the Hypotical trade of Zhitnik or a player similar to be in the Top 3 or 4 on the leafs to replace Shevla's minutes..

Even without a trade ... Quinn is old school and he will play..

Kaberle ....McCabe
Marchment...Berg
Jackman...Pushor
Belak

and I personally don't see Marchment and Berg who are currently 3 and 4 on the depth chart playing top 4 minutes ...

That is why I would suggest a youth movement and a pairings as I listed earlier..with a more even ice time spread out 3 defenseive pairings with extra minutes earned on Special teams PP and PK..

Would you also like changing the name of the Leafs to the Dinosaurs???

I for one am hoping that Reichel, Fitzgerald & Belak's name are on the WAIVER draft AVAILABLE list and that anyone if not all are selected..

and since their is a less than 1% chance of that happening...What does that tell you that 29 other teams don't think that any of these 3 would be an upgrade to their team ...yet you see all 3 comfortably making the Leafs a Stanley Cup Contender..

I personally hope that JFJ clears house and begins the youth movement and brings in his own players and dumps Quinns reclamation projects..

1. I never said anything about all 3
2. I never said the Leafs were a Stanley Cup contender

Toronto is not the place for kids to be broken in. With the relentless media and fans it's just too much pressure on a kid to handle.

Toronto is not the place for kids to be broken in. With the relentless media and fans it's just too much pressure on a kid to handle.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

I understand what you are trying to do and it makes sense. But that lineup you suggested had too many holes.

The Leafs don't have a lot of prospects that are ready to step into the lineup this year, so they aren't holding the young guys back by playing the veterans. Next year may be a different story though.

Guys like Stajan and Colaiacovo will be able to fill in this year when injuries strike though. That'll help ease them into the NHL more gradually.

With the Age and injury history of the Leafs as injury replacements both should be able to get into at least 80 games comfortibly and still have room for Gavey & Holden and Druken to see plenty of ice in Toronto..

This fact alone will make St. Johns a graveyard more than a devevolpemt league for young players.. as they are going to get hammered on many nights in the AHL and a heavy losing season could stunt the deveolpement of a young player even with lots of ice time and a hopefully winning one can in TO..

and with very few vets leading and showing the way in St. Johns are the Stajan's supposed to learn from the Wellwoods and the Colaiacovo's from the Bell's and Turon's and Kondratiev's on the farm.. They are going to have a very young team and get pounded on many nights..

..that would also put the kids at 5 and 6... with little ice time and playing together which will not work and if you insert Marchment into the 3rd pairing then one of the kids Carlo or Max becomes #7.. Which Quinn has stated he would not do and would be terrible for there development, where as ST Johns would be a better option for the Kids...

So you play Quinn for a moment and assume the Hypotical trade of Zhitnik or a player similar to be in the Top 3 or 4 on the leafs to replace Shevla's minutes..

Even without a trade ... Quinn is old school and he will play..

Kaberle ....McCabe
Marchment...Berg
Jackman...Pushor
Belak

and I personally don't see Marchment and Berg who are currently 3 and 4 on the depth chart playing top 4 minutes ...

That is why I would suggest a youth movement and a pairings as I listed earlier..with a more even ice time spread out 3 defenseive pairings with extra minutes earned on Special teams PP and PK..


You're right, Quinn has stated he won't let one of the young guys waste away as a #7 d-man and I agree with him on that one. He's also been hinting pretty heavily that at least one of the younger guys will be making the lineup this season. I think one or at most maybe two of the young guys will get a chance in Toronto for the first couple games to see if they're ready and after that who knows. Remember that Pilar is also going to be ready to return in another couple of weeks.

Personally I think the opening day roster is going to look something like....

McCabe - Jackman
Kaberle - Kondratiev
Marchment - Berg
Pushor

Depending on how everyone plays the Kaberle - Kondratiev pairing could become the #1 pair, or if Kondratiev falters then Berg or Pilar could take his spot depending on how they're playing. Pushor could easily take a spot on the 3rd pairing, as could Belak if he had to. If we did acquire a Zhitnik type player then I really think that either Berg, Pilar, or Jackman would have to go the other way just to make room on the roster.

Yes I agree that is true in general but when you are trying to bring in Kids to play regularly... they also need Veteran leadership and Ice time to develop..

So Leafs and Quinn is kind of caught between rock and a hard place..

If with a Zhitnik trade then Yes along with Kabs an McCabe would be the top 3 and probably giving Jackman the 4th spot...

..that would also put the kids at 5 and 6... with little ice time and playing together which will not work and if you insert Marchment into the 3rd pairing then one of the kids Carlo or Max becomes #7.. Which Quinn has stated he would not do and would be terrible for there development, where as ST Johns would be a better option for the Kids.

As someone stated earlier, you do not spread out your top 3 defenseman over the 3 pairings. You have those quality top 4 guys who log the main minutes and then your #6 and #7 guys get the rest of the time.

I DO understand your contention about the kids not getting enough ice-time and pairing them together would be bad; which a situation you created with your hypothetical trade and assumption that BOTH Carlo and Kondratiev can make the team. However, you also have an untested (let's leave opinion of HOW Jackman CAN/WILL/SHOULD perform this year, out of it) #4 in Jackman.

Assuming Kabs, McCabe and Zhitnik take up the bulk of the minutes. One could in theory slide the more deserving rookie up to the #4 spot and bump Jackman down, on occasion. As well, time can be found for the kids on special teams (second units) - as in reality they can do well on about 15 minutes of ice-time a game. Which they can get, assuming that the top two guys play about 25 mins a game, the other two guys play between 19-21 mins a game.

Check the top twenty rookies (in points) amongst defensemen last year; almost 40% of them played 15 mins a game or less.

1. I never said anything about all 3
2. I never said the Leafs were a Stanley Cup contender

1. You said you would have Fitzgerald in as opposed to a Kid like Stajan or Poni, and since I already had Reichel and Belak on the team ...one could make an assuption that your ideal line-up is to start with oldest player and start counting down and when you have 12 forwards and 6 dman stop and that is your team..

2. No you never said Stanely cup contender directly... but my point would be ...Isn't that the goal of every team to win it all.. If you are not a contender than perhaps you should make changes to improve to become one or *** WHAT DOES IT MATER IF YOU LOOSE WITH DINOSAURS OR YOUNG KIDS!!! *****

I don't think the Leafs traded Boyes, MacCauley and 1st, not to THINK they where bettering their team and increasing their chances...

Why spend money on Nieuwendyk's and Marchments if you only intend to go threw the motions and make it throw the season and then clear house after the Lockout.. Trying to replace 8 or 9 forwards then..

The only players still under contract at that time will be SUNDIN , NOLAN, TUCKER and ANTROPOV..

So do you suggest whole scale FREE AGENT SPENDING, or promoting 1/2 the St. John team a year from now and hope to win the Cup then...

I think you are looking at the short-term and need to take a long look at the big picture and your view might be different..

1. You said you would have Fitzgerald in as opposed to a Kid like Stajan or Poni, and since I already had Reichel and Belak on the team ...one could make an assuption that your ideal line-up is to start with oldest player and start counting down and when you have 12 forwards and 6 dman stop and that is your team..

2. No you never said Stanely cup contender directly... but my point would be ...Isn't that the goal of every team to win it all.. If you are not a contender than perhaps you should make changes to improve to become one or *** WHAT DOES IT MATER IF YOU LOOSE WITH DINOSAURS OR YOUNG KIDS!!! *****

I don't think the Leafs traded Boyes, MacCauley and 1st, not to THINK they where bettering their team and increasing their chances...

Why spend money on Nieuwendyk's and Marchments if you only intend to go threw the motions and make it throw the season and then clear house after the Lockout.. Trying to replace 8 or 9 forwards then..

The only players still under contract at that time will be SUNDIN , NOLAN, TUCKER and ANTROPOV..

So do you suggest whole scale FREE AGENT SPENDING, or promoting 1/2 the St. John team a year from now and hope to win the Cup then...

I think you are looking at the short-term and need to take a long look at the big picture and your view might be different..

huh?

huh?

Okay great response.. :handclap:

No need to continue this discussion with that kind of well thought out
response... I have a pretty good idea of the kind of knowledgeable poster I am dealing with now and no need wearing out my keyboard responding to HUH??

I'll try to keep the conversation from now on at your level and just reply with a smilie.. :confused: :rolleyes:

WHAT???? :dunno:

Okay great response.. :handclap:

No need to continue this discussion with that kind of well thought out
response... I have a pretty good idea of the kind of knowledgeable poster I am dealing with now and no need wearing out my keyboard responding to HUH??

I'll try to keep the conversation from now on at your level and just reply with a smilie.. :confused: :rolleyes:

WHAT???? :dunno:

I responded huh? because I didn't understand your ramblings.

Yes Stajan.... Good teams like Colorado bring in young kids like Tanguay and play them with Vets like Sakic to develope them..
Also for any of you that got to see the Games in Europe a young player like Immonen look like a future Super Star playing with Roberts and Nieuwendyk against Finland, even to the point of earning Player of the Game honours..


This is the part I've got the hardest time reasoning with. Immonen did not rely on Roberts and Nieuwendyk to make him look good. He did a great deal of the playmaking and showed great individual skills where as Stajan was given his shot on a line with Sundin and quite frankly was invisible. Don't get me wrong, I like Stajan but using the European games would tend to work more against your argument than for it, Immonen shined, Stajan didn't.

As someone stated earlier, you do not spread out your top 3 defenseman over the 3 pairings. You have those quality top 4 guys who log the main minutes and then your #6 and #7 guys get the rest of the time.

I DO understand your contention about the kids not getting enough ice-time and pairing them together would be bad; which a situation you created with your hypothetical trade and assumption that BOTH Carlo and Kondratiev can make the team. However, you also have an untested (let's leave opinion of HOW Jackman CAN/WILL/SHOULD perform this year, out of it) #4 in Jackman.

Assuming Kabs, McCabe and Zhitnik take up the bulk of the minutes. One could in theory slide the more deserving rookie up to the #4 spot and bump Jackman down, on occasion. As well, time can be found for the kids on special teams (second units) - as in reality they can do well on about 15 minutes of ice-time a game. Which they can get, assuming that the top two guys play about 25 mins a game, the other two guys play between 19-21 mins a game.

Check the top twenty rookies (in points) amongst defensemen last year; almost 40% of them played 15 mins a game or less.

I agree with at in general and that is usually the rule... but lets look at it this way... Right now there is no Zhitnik or other player in the top 3 spot.. and that is the first problem... a dman that can play # 3 miniutes and is not a rookie...

So right now you have Jackman & Marchment & Berg ( 2 out of 3 ) playing top 4 minutes on the team.. currently which can't be good..

or

by your other analysis with the Hypothetical trade of a top 4 dman.. that Jackman drops to #5 and that would have to leave Marchment at #6 ..

No room for a second youngster on the roster at all if they either get slotted at #4 or #7... Carlo made the team out of camp last year and a year later you would think that he would be even further along and Leafs Defense is even worse now than then.. .and other than Jackman the Leafs staff have been ranting about Kondratiev and have virtually gone on record and stated other than a totals colaspe he would be on the opening day roster ... JFJ own words... and in Quinns own words..No rookie will be #7...

So that leaves currently

Tomas Kaberle
Bryan McCabe
Aki Berg
Bryan Marchment
Ric Jackman
Maxim Kondratiev
Carlo Colaiacovo
Wade Belak

I am curious to know how you would pair them and rank them and dish out ice time if you where Quinn.. With the current situation as it stands..

The reality is that the Leafs are not the New Jersey Devils, or the Colorado Avalanche or whatever other team you want to mention. We don't break in one or two youngsters a year.

Pat Quinn loves his veterans. He just doesn't like to play the kids, thats the type of coach he is. If you are a young kid, you REALLY have to show you belong and pay your dues. The last rookie to make an impact in the Leafs line up was Antropov three years ago. Since then we havent had ONE. Guys like Pilar, Poni have seen spot duty but nothing substantial.

The only rookie I see making the final roster is Alexander Ponikarovsky simply because he's paid his dues and is deserving. And even then, he won't play a big part. He'll most likely take over the role that Paul Healey had last year. 4th liner, press box junkie.

I'm suprised to think that you actually believe that the Leafs will play that many rookies this year, and in substantial roles too. Haven't you watched the Leafs and monitored the type of coach Pat Quinn has been since taking over the Leafs head coaching position?

I responded huh? because I didn't understand your ramblings.


WHAT???? :dunno:

The reality is that the Leafs are not the New Jersey Devils, or the Colorado Avalanche or whatever other team you want to mention. We don't break in one or two youngsters a year.

Pat Quinn loves his veterans. He just doesn't like to play the kids, thats the type of coach he is. If you are a young kid, you REALLY have to show you belong and pay your dues. The last rookie to make an impact in the Leafs line up was Antropov three years ago. Since then we havent had ONE. Guys like Pilar, Poni have seen spot duty but nothing substantial.

The only rookie I see making the final roster is Alexander Ponikarovsky simply because he's paid his dues and is deserving. And even then, he won't play a big part. He'll most likely take over the role that Paul Healey had last year. 4th liner, press box junkie.

I'm suprised to think that you actually believe that the Leafs will play that many rookies this year, and in substantial roles too. Haven't you watched the Leafs and monitored the type of coach Pat Quinn has been since taking over the Leafs head coaching position?

Absolutely ...been watching the Leafs for 30 years ...

I look back at the example when Kaberle & Markov both made the team out of training camp a few years back and both deservedly so at the time... Could we not just substitute Carlo and Max in as a similar example this year...

Leafs currently only have Kaberle and McCabe when he is healthy to play top 4 minutes and after that a big hole ...that needs to be filled by the only two other regular NHL Dman in Berg and Marchment...

That only leaves Jackman , the kids and Belak or Pushor as the remaining options on defense presently...

With a very Vet forward unit ...Quinn may the opportunity to break in a couple of kids on D this year considering the current situation..

I agree Quinn is OLD SCHOOL and plays his vets , otherwise there is no rhyme or reason why Lumme could go from playing top 4 minutes to being bought out..

but he did let Svehla & Wesley walk, bought out Lumme ....so maybe he is changing his OLD SCHOOL way of thinking ...One could only hope..

So given the leafs current defense how do you see that playing out...???

Absolutely ...been watching the Leafs for 30 years ...

I look back at the example when Kaberle & Markov both made the team out of training camp a few years back and both deservedly so at the time... Could we not just substitute Carlo and Max in as a similar example this year...


Yannick Tremblay also made the Leafs D as a rookie that year.

WHAT???? :dunno:

Are you always so confrontational? As you get older you'll find people won't always agree with your views.

Yannick Tremblay also made the Leafs D as a rookie that year.
True , but not to the extent that Kabs & Danny did... and unfortunately he was lost quickly to an expansion team so we don't really know how far he may have come with the Leafs.. he still plays regularly in the NHL though..

So it is a good point no less... and certainly supports the argument that it is possible that both Carlo and Max make the team this year as a distinct possibility...

Are you always so confrontational? As you get older you'll find people won't always agree with your views.
Huh??? :dunno:

Huh??? :dunno:

well judging by your maturity level I guess the only advice I could give you is to practice saying this "would you like fries with that?" because that's about as much as you can hope to achieve in life. Good luck to you, maybe you'll make ass't manager one day.

well judging by your maturity level I guess the only advice I could give you is to practice saying this "would you like fries with that?" because that's about as much as you can hope to achieve in life. Good luck to you, maybe you'll make ass't manager one day.

Well I currently am employed with Microsoft...but thank you for your well wishes, but as a individual in the IT field I feel I have obtained my goal of working for the #1 Computer Organization in the industry..

I soon realized that the concatenation of my English vocabulary, which seemed to be a bit too verbose and incoherent and uncomprehending for your level of intelligence at this juncture in your life, would have to be rectified and diversified to establish a form of communication that you could more readily identify with, and respond accordingly to in a succinct and knowledgeable way .

Your one word answers, which you so eloquently used like HUH !! and WHAT!!..seemed to emphasize and exemplify your scholarly education, while my reciprocation to your responses in a similar manner has offended you for some reason, which is unfathomable, as I was trying to communicate on a similar stratosphere, which evidently made my dialogue incomprehensible and unmistakable opaque to your ability to comprehend.

So our Future endeavours to communicate will have to encompass a more diversified copulation of the English language, not withstanding the use of Smilies to bridge the great divide between the Cro-Magnon use of the language you currently posses like HUH!!! and the paragraph explanations which I chose to utilize in stating my opinion of this particular subject..

If my synopsis of this situation is still inadvertently incomprehensible for yourself, than perhaps Smoke signals or Mores code can be used in future encounters, as I never questioned your opinion on the subject just the manner in which you tried to convey it...

:teach:

Well I currently am employed with Microsoft...but thank you for your well wishes, but as a individual in the IT field I feel I have obtained my goal of working for the #1 Computer Organization in the industry..

I soon realized that the concatenation of my English vocabulary, which seemed to be a bit too verbose and incoherent and uncomprehending for your level of intelligence at this juncture in your life, would have to be rectified and diversified to establish a form of communication that you could more readily identify with, and respond accordingly to in a succinct and knowledgeable way .

Your one word answers, which you so eloquently used like HUH !! and WHAT!!..seemed to emphasize and exemplify your scholarly education, while my reciprocation to your responses in a similar manner has offended you for some reason, which is unfathomable, as I was trying to communicate on a similar stratosphere, which evidently made my dialogue incomprehensible and unmistakable opaque to your ability to comprehend.



So our Future endeavours to communicate will have to encompass a more diversified copulation of the English language, not withstanding the use of Smilies to bridge the great divide between the Cro-Magnon use of the language you currently posses like HUH!!! and the paragraph explanations which I chose to utilize in stating my opinion of this particular subject..

If my synopsis of this situation is still inadvertently incomprehensible for yourself, than perhaps Smoke signals or Mores code can be used in future encounters, as I never questioned your opinion on the subject just the manner in which you tried to convey it...

:teach:

Yeah they'll hire anybody...good luck with that.

P.S. it's Morse Code

Yeah they'll hire anybody...good luck with that.

P.S. it's Morse Code

Morse Code that you understood !!!1.. I guess there is hope for you after all..

Well at least you have elevated your responses from HUH!!!

Rome wasn't built in a day, so I guess we have progress HUH!!!!

<Center>Geez...........What's with all of the Leafs fans lately?.........everybody wants to get rid of Darcy Tucker and nobody loves him anymore?........This guy's sure getting the Bella-beatings from Leafs fans.

<Center><IMG height=175 src="http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/images/hockey/nhl/players/maple.leafs/1400.jpg" width=115>

So given the leafs current defense how do you see that playing out...???

I see it playing out as Kaberle, Mccabe, Marchment, Berg, Jackman, Belak and most likely Pushor.

I agree that there is a strong chance that one of the young kids will make the team on defense. We have holes and youd have to think, what would we have to lose to audition a spot to someone like Hedin or Cola or Bell or Kondratiev or Harrison or whoever. But then you also have to realize we are dealing with Pat Quinn.

Through Quinn's eyes and mentality, Ric Jackman is a "rookie". He's a young kid still trying to maintain a regular spot in the NHL. And judging by training camp so far, he seems to have made major strides.

To me, Ric Jackman is our "young d-man" to break the roster.

I see it playing out as Kaberle, Mccabe, Marchment, Berg, Jackman, Belak and most likely Pushor.

I agree that there is a strong chance that one of the young kids will make the team on defense. We have holes and youd have to think, what would we have to lose to audition a spot to someone like Hedin or Cola or Bell or Kondratiev or Harrison or whoever. But then you also have to realize we are dealing with Pat Quinn.

Through Quinn's eyes and mentality, Ric Jackman is a "rookie". He's a young kid still trying to maintain a regular spot in the NHL. And judging by training camp so far, he seems to have made major strides.

To me, Ric Jackman is our "young d-man" to break the roster.

You might very well be right , taking into account Quinns thinking but IMO that may be the worse Defense in the League .... Could be a real long season if we are counting on major contributions from Marchment, Pushor and Belak...

if mccabe isnt ready, i think we'll see:

kaberle pushor
marchment jackman
berg belak

hold on!

For fun, my opening night lines.

Antropov-Sundin-Nolan
Roberts-Nieuwendyk-Mogilny
Tucker-Reichel-Renberg
Fitzgerald/Belak-Green-Domi

McCabe-Berg
Kaberle-Marchment/Hedin
Pushor/Hedin/Marchment-Jackman

Mogilny would be better suited with Sundin but I decided to mix it up a bit. Roberts wants to play with Nieuwy so that leaves those spots solid and it gives the 2nd line a new dimension. The top line is tough but is good for a good amount of points with Sundin's passing and Nolan's board and net work making room.

The 3rd line is merely energy of sorts. Reichel doesn't get much praise but when he's on he is decent for what he is, this line would be underrated and thrown out against others top 2 lines. The 4th obviously is the checking line, maybe slot in one of the kids at LW, I dunno.

The fun part, defense. I could put all my beers in one cooler with McCabe-Kaberle, but that'd be thin. Berg is far from a 1st pairing guy but if McCabe is healthy and rebounds, it won't be half bad. All depends on how McCabe bounces back, if he can regain his 01-02 form or not.

2nd is decent. Kaberle the usual PP QB self, along with either Hedin/Marchment. I dunno how effective either will be, if Hedin is as good as projected to be this may be a darkhorse pairing, even with Kaberle on it. Kaberle-Hedin would be cool, since their main thing is offense. Marchment would clear the crease and such, and Kaberle's point shot a better chance to go in or rebounds, scraps which Tucker/Nolan and such would gladly pick up. Marchment hasn't really been known for offense but I think Kaberle with him would be worth trying.

Alas, the 3rd pairing. So many players, too little spots. Automatically I'd give Jackman one there, seeing how good he played last season and thus far in the pre-season. Let the battle begin between Pushor/Hedin/Cola/Kondriatev for that spot. I think Pushor is slated for St. John's, so that leaves one of the kids probable for one of that spot. All depends but I'd like to see another defenseman come in, it'd help our 2nd pairing a lot.

Just a few ideas, don't know if they sensical or not but it was for the hell of it. A coach, we are not.

i love that 2nd line !

ok I am gonna be different

Rens Sundin Mogilny
Tucks Ants Nolan
Roberts Newy Reichel (the calgary line should light a fire under reichels ass)
Domi Green Fitzy

Kabs Caber
Marchment Kondi
Jackman Coli

just my opinion

oh and is it me or has coli really bulked up with muscle

Renberg - Sundin - Nolan
Roberts - Antropov - Mogilny
Green - Nieuwendyk - Ponikarovsky
Fitzgerald - Reichel - Domi
(Belak)

Kaberle - McCabe
Zhitnik - Jackman
Marchment - Hedin/Pilar/Kondratiev
(Pushor)

Belfour
Tellqvist


I agree with Messenger that the Leafs still need to make a move for a #3 d-man - call it Zhitnik or another solid top-3 citizen. I have no problem whatsoever with Marchment as the #5, providing a steadying influence to the unseasoned defencemen getting tried out as #6.

And I agree that St. Johns' is going to be facing a serious experience shortage this year, which does indeed make it harder to learn, to win and build confidence. I don't think that's a factor, however, in the decision as to whom to send down from Toronto - that would be putting that cart before the horse. Let's remember that St. John's (the team, not the good city!) exists to keep Toronto again, the team, not the city!) stocked with developed players. So any experience concerns can be dealt with by moves at the St. John's level... I've often wondered, for example, why the Baby Buds didn't (or didn't appear to) make a serious bid for the services of veteran offensive defenceman and AHL All-Star John Slaney, a native of Newfoundland and Labrador... but as I said, that's neither here nor there.

I have no doubt that we'll see a number of faces stepping up for a handful of games this year, given the likelihood of injuries. But that's about the exten tof it. Cola has done nothing in camp to show he deserves to start the seaosn up here (yes, he's been injured, so they'll give him a chance once he's feeling better, but it's unlikely he'll get more than a cup of coffee in T.O. before getting sent down. This is not a criticism of him or his potential, just a recognition that he's not ready for what the Leafs need.

These lines assume that tucker and Berg have indeed been packed off... it's harder to do without Tucker than many have suggested (myself, perhaps, included), and it means that for much of the time Roberts and Niewy won't be playing together, but I think these lines make sense, and are possible enough for even Quinn to get his head around.

I would just remember that if Kondratiev makes the Toronto Leafs this year he'll have to be partnered with Kaberle if for no other reason he speaks basically no english. A player can't play if he doesn't know wen the play has changed, when to come off the ice, when his partner is telling him to do something etc...

As discussd below with 1 trade Tucker & Berg & ?? for Zhitnik..

So after the Zhitnik trade

That would leave the Roster as follows....

Mikael Renberg....Mats Sundin..........Owen Nolan
A Ponikarovsky....Nik Antropov.........Alexander Mogilny
Gary Roberts......Joe Nieuwendyk......Matt Stajan
Travis Green.......Robert Reichel.......Tie Domi

Tomas Kaberle........Maxim Kondratiev
Alexei Zhitnik.........Carlo Colaiacovo
Bryan McCabe........Ric Jackman
Bryan Marchment

Eddie Belfour
Mikael Tellqvist

with extras Fitzgerald & Belak as situational players..

So I think Tucker & Berg would fit better on someone else's team and give the kids a chance while still improving the Defense overall by the addition of Zhitnik..

That's my GM and Coaches hat for today...
I agree with this line-up. If you can get Zhitnik for Berg and Tucker,m then do it.

Roberts Newy Reichel (the calgary line should light a fire under reichels ass)


Isn't it widely known that Roberts detests Reichel?

Isn't it widely known that Roberts detests Reichel?

I have never heard that. Although I could see how Reichel wouldn't be a Roberts type player. Where did you hear this?

Isn't it widely known that Roberts detests Reichel?

I can't see Roberts "detesting" him, never heard that one before. I can understand that he may "frustrate" Roberts given the guys talent vs. effort, but maybe throwing him on a line with Robs will make him think twice before deciding to just surf. Gary's not one to put up with slackers especially when it affects his own play.

I can't see Roberts "detesting" him, never heard that one before. I can understand that he may "frustrate" Roberts given the guys talent vs. effort, but maybe throwing him on a line with Robs will make him think twice before deciding to just surf. Gary's not one to put up with slackers especially when it affects his own play.

I thought Reichel on the Wing last night with Sundin and Renberg in the 3rd was kind of interesting.. Could he be any worse than when Hoglund played there??..