NBA Playoff Thread

I would have no problem whatsoever betting a lot of money that all four top seeded teams will win their series.

That's entirely different than saying no series will need a 6th game..

So far, yes, the higher seeds are all looking extremely solid.

The defensive stat of interest should be the per 100 possesion number (that is all that truly matters). Defense is NOT using 23 seconds on offense to take your shot, it is stopping the opponent from scoring when they get the ball.

The suns give up 107 pts per 100 possesions.

The Spurs give up 99 pts per 100 possesions.

The Mavs give up 104 pts per 100 possesions.

The Heat give up 103 pts per 100 possesions.

The Pistons give up 101 pts per 100 possesions.


So while the Suns D isn't great, it is only 8 pts per 100 possesions worse than the Spurs. Considering the Suns offense is 6 pts/100 possesions better than the Spurs, it would be a close battle.

That's entirely different than saying no series will need a 6th game..

So far, yes, the higher seeds are all looking extremely solid.

That's true, perhaps saying that no series will get to 6 games might be a little hasty. But I still wouldn't be surprised.

I know the home teams have the advantage and so far that has played true. The Wiz will be lucky to win any games, the Pacers don't stand a chance, the scoreboard is going to get burnt out for all the points the Suns will score and the Sonics are too beat up to challenge a much stronger Spurs team.

I would have no problem whatsoever betting a lot of money that all four top seeded teams will win their series.

Agreed. The Wiz will be swept. The Sonics will be.... swept. The Pacers might win one or two. Same with Dallas. That's it.

In the NBA playoffs more often than not the cream rises to the top.

Also as same of you already mentioned the Suns D is far from poor (of the teams remaining I'd say their D is better than Washington and on par with Seattle). While Nash and Stoudamire are below average on D, Marion would be a candidate for Defensive player of the Player if he was on a defensive-minded team like San Antonio.

Are you honestly saying that the Suns have a good fg% against because teams suddenly go cold? defence is much more of a factor, and any sort of statistical analysis shows this.

Read the paragraph again. Teams do not go cold, but because the Suns are so quick and get ahead so quick, teams find themselves in holes which they try too hard to dig themselves out of. They start taking very bad shots, and as expected, alot of bad shots don't go in.

In 2004, Dallas was first IIRC if FG% against. Yet, they were last in PPG against. Considering they sucked defensively, I'd say it shows PPG against is a much better stat as measuring a defense than FG%, and it always will be.

I would be willing to bet a fair sum that if teams did not force up shots, but slowed the game down and went for the best plays, the Suns' record would not be as good(but not substantually less, either). The Suns win so much because they force teams to play their game, and there arent't alot of teams that can play with them. Unfortunately, Dallas invented the style of play Pheonix uses, so when KVH gets back, we'll be in for some high-scoring ball.

What a game....

Mavs hold on to win, 108-106. Great defense on the last play of the game, forcing someone other than Nash or Amare to beat them, with Richardson missing a contested 3 at the buzzer. Mavs get out of Phoenix with all they could ask for....a split.

well my prediction was right, Suns did come down a bit, but not as much as I anticipated. Suns lost their most underrated player to injury, and he needed surgery, so I think it is safe to say that he is done for a while. Hopefully they can come back to Phoenix with a stranglehold. Also nice to see Stoudemire consider his dominance down low.

Well props to the Pacers and Mavs. They did what they had to do last night by stealing home court advantage.

I'm shocked that this basic fact is escaping all of you. Christ, it's not that hard to understand. The Suns defense isn't nearly as bad as you are making them out to be.

The one guy keeps saying that they must be bad if they give up 100 points a game. Well moron, if they added an extra 6 minutes on the clock would you expect a team to give up more points? That's effectively what the Suns offense does.

FOTS has been completely accurate the entire time.

Um, don't call me a moron. That was uncalled for.

Well props to the Pacers and Mavs. They did what they had to do last night by stealing home court advantage.
I'm especially impressed by the Pacers, if there was one team other than the Wizards I saw a sweep in it was them. I want the Pacers to go far, and if the Suns can't win it all, then I'd like nothing more than to see Reggie Miller hoist the trophy.

Great win for the Mavs last night. Here's some notes from the game:

-It seems my liking of Damp vs. Amare might've been right. Once you set the tone against Amare on both ends, he's slows down a bit. Amare is a pretty selfish defender IMO, and would rather someone go in uncontested rather than take a foul. It cost them more than a few points.

-How did Stackhouse get a flagrant against JJ? While JJ went down hard, and hopefully he's alright, Stackhouse barely fouled him, and Johnson's feet just went from under him.

-Stupid play by the Suns in the last moments of the game IMO. Dallas defended them well, but they should've been trying harder to work it closer, rather than have Q-Rich try a three.

-Wow. Last series, Bob Sura rugby-tackles Josh Howard, and barely gets a foul. This series, Steve Nash grabs on to the jersey of Marquis Daniels, uses him as leverage to get closer to the basket, and 'Quis gets the foul. Crazy.

-Damp responded to Dirk's critisism well. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of 4 shooters and Damp. Hopefully KVH can get back soon(he should be in by game 4), so when Dirk has to sit on the bench, they can play KVH at the 4, rather than Howard who isn't a 4 at all.

-Hopefully Fin can keep the great play up. Over the last 3 years, the Mavs have lost only 5 times when both score 20 or more. If they both play great over the next games, Dallas has a very nice shot at winning the series.

Great win for the Mavs last night. Here's some notes from the game:

-It seems my liking of Damp vs. Amare might've been right. Once you set the tone against Amare on both ends, he's slows down a bit.
Damp has allowed Stoudemire to score 35 ppg against him thus far, he has been a disaster this series.

Damp has allowed Stoudemire to score 35 ppg against him thus far, he has been a disaster this series.

Damp wasn't on Amare for a fair bit last night. When he was, though, he did a pretty decent job, especially early on.

On the offensive end, Damp ate Amare alive early on. Then they stopped throwing it to him, and he cooled off a bit.

Wizards are leading in the 1st quarter.

No Shaq for Miami. Wade has 6 points and 5 turnovers.

Can anybody please post all the series that are going on now and who's leading the series and all? I always start watching the playoffs around this time. Thanks in advance!

Can anybody please post all the series that are going on now and who's leading the series and all? I always start watching the playoffs around this time. Thanks in advance!
Spurs up 2-0 on Sonics, game 3 on right now.

Heat up 3-0 on Wizards.

Mavs - Suns tied 1-1.

Indy - Detroit tied 1-1.

No problem for the Heat.

7-0 in the playoffs

YEESSSSSSSSSSSSS. Seattle Wins!@!@!@!

YEESSSSSSSSSSSSS. Seattle Wins!@!@!@!

While they're down 2-1, this is definetely a series to watch. You're never out of it untill you're down 3-0, as we saw with Dallas last round.

Looks like two great match-ups out West.

YEESSSSSSSSSSSSS. Seattle Wins!@!@!@!

Don't ask how..

The Spurs shot 8 for 16 from the line in the 4th and got some golden oppertunies from the same spot in the dying seconds. Not to mention Duncan missed a short one in the end, shots he normally always makes.

Did you hear what Shaq said about why he decided to sit out and rest his injury? To quote Shaq "I was playing like Erick Dampier"
:biglaugh:
Go Seattle! I would love to see them upset the Spurs :yo:

Spurs up 2-0 on Sonics, game 3 on right now.

Heat up 3-0 on Wizards.

Mavs - Suns tied 1-1.

Indy - Detroit tied 1-1.

Thanks my friend I really appreciate it! :D

Did you hear what Shaq said about why he decided to sit out and rest his injury? To quote Shaq "I was playing like Erick Dampier"
:biglaugh:

I think thats a stretch....Shaq wasn't playing that bad ;) .

nash nash nash

Steve Nash = :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Hercules: Will you finally admit that Stoudemire just simply owns the Mavs and that Dampier can't stop him? I mean, he is averaging 35.7 ppg this series. If that isn't dominance, what is?

If that isn't dominance, what is?

Dampier dominating the bench?

Dampier dominating the bench?
the only thing Dampier dominates is his mom. The bench played 27 mins, 16 of which were from a gaurd. So there were 11 minutes of backup front court players playing, and I'll venture to say that Dampier wasn't on any of them seeing as Amare played 46 mins. Amare completly takes Dampier out of the game 15 mins in game 1, 13 in this game. Why? Foul trouble. Dampier just can't stop him so he racks up the fouls, and outside of Dampier, there isn't anybody even remotely capable of covering Amare. They may as well try putting nobody on him and doubling Nash. So what if Amare puts down 40, he will likely do it anyways and this way you stop scoring from other parts.

'Sheed guarentees a win for Game 4.



it doesn't always work, buddy.

How about those Pacers :eek: Although you may not want to ask Larry Brown about that last shot by Reggie ;)

For anyone not able to watch any games on tv, a couple of channels on CoolStreaming show the playoffs. Right now, Washington-Miami is on at Guangdong Sports.

Hercules: Will you finally admit that Stoudemire just simply owns the Mavs and that Dampier can't stop him? I mean, he is averaging 35.7 ppg this series. If that isn't dominance, what is?

If you haven't noticed, the Mavs are rotating on Amare. This may have changed for game 3, I didn't watch it, but after game 1, it seemed they would put one guy on him, and then someone would come over and double him up. Then they quit that for a while, I guess.

Either way, I'd rather have Dampier getting fouls but at least trying to stop the other guy on the defensive end. Amare just lets the guy take the points.

Hopefully Dallas gives a better effort in game 4. Being down 2-1 is peanuts. If they can tie it at 2-2, they can definetely go the distance. If I know Steve Nash, with Leandro Barbosa backing him up, he should start wearing out soon. Then again, I thought he'd be wore out by now, so who knows.

If you haven't noticed, the Mavs are rotating on Amare. This may have changed for game 3, I didn't watch it, but after game 1, it seemed they would put one guy on him, and then someone would come over and double him up. Then they quit that for a while, I guess.

Either way, I'd rather have Dampier getting fouls but at least trying to stop the other guy on the defensive end. Amare just lets the guy take the points.

Hopefully Dallas gives a better effort in game 4. Being down 2-1 is peanuts. If they can tie it at 2-2, they can definetely go the distance. If I know Steve Nash, with Leandro Barbosa backing him up, he should start wearing out soon. Then again, I thought he'd be wore out by now, so who knows.
Definatly, the Mavs are not out of it. Down 2-1 is nothing, after 3 games you are either in or out, and the mavs are definatly in. I won't say the suns have this wrapped up, as 2-1 isn't much, but you underestimate Barbossa. He has been solid all year, and his points per 48 mins is 19.5, so he can play, they just choose not too. He will be a star gaurd in the very near future, you can count on that.

Dwayne Wade is amongst the top 3 players in the league.

Discuss.

Dwayne Wade is amongst the top 3 players in the league.

Discuss.

I can't stop laughing..

Wade is great and everthing, but let's see him put up 42 in an elimation game vs. a team that isn't happy just getting to the 2nd round.

I can't stop laughing..

You won't be laughing in five years.

Dwayne Wade is amongst the top 3 players in the league.

Discuss.

Not yet but he is well on his way.

You won't be laughing in five years.

You're probably right. In five years, when Wade is possibly a top 5 player, he won't be laughing when someone says that. However, now, he can laugh all he wants.

Detroit ties it at 2 with a win on the road. The rest of this series will hopefully be great, seeing if Reggie's career goes on, or is ended by the Pistons.

Also, I gotta ask, if the Pacers beats the Pistons, and either take the Heat to 7, or lose in the finals, does Reggie still retire after coming so close to a title?

Also, I gotta ask, if the Pacers beats the Pistons, and either take the Heat to 7, or lose in the finals, does Reggie still retire after coming so close to a title?


Yeah, because next season Detroit will be on a mission to beat them.

Impressive win by Seattle without Rashard Lewis. 2-2 series now.

Detroit ties it at 2 with a win on the road. The rest of this series will hopefully be great, seeing if Reggie's career goes on, or is ended by the Pistons.

Also, I gotta ask, if the Pacers beats the Pistons, and either take the Heat to 7, or lose in the finals, does Reggie still retire after coming so close to a title?

I don't think so. I think he knows that the Pacers aren't really a title contender and probably won't be for a few more years.

Dallas wins by 10 over Phoenix to tie it at 2 games a piece. Big win by Dallas, and hopefully they can keep it up next game.

While one game doesn't decide everything, it seems the Mavs have figured out how to beat them: make Nash shoot the ball. He may score quite a bit, but it limits points from others, and tires him out as he has to handle the ball for much longer. Nash had a great game point-wise, but was terrible in terms of everything else. His assist to turnover ratio was like, what, 3-9? Very bad game for a point guard.

I don't think the Mavs did anything that will let them win another game. They used a gimick defense (which essentially let Nash shoot 20-28, most of them open looks), while taking away everything else. Their strategy worked FOR A HALF, where Dallas got a 16 point lead. But once Nash started shooting first pass second, Dallas was getting beat (though they rode their cushion to a 10 point victory).

Now, In the First half, Nash, while shooting more than normal, was still trying to pass first (but Dallas wasn't helping on his penetration, often doubling at the same time on Stoudamare, leaving Nash WIDE WIDE open). Nash shoots over 50% from the floor, and is a DEADLY wide open jump shooter (probably the best on the Suns).

I don't think intentionaly leaving him wide open is a sustainable strategy, and is one that the Suns are going to be able to counter (they made the minor adjustment in the second half of having Nash shoot almost every possesion).

I'm thinking just the opposite. I think the Mavs strategy could help them win this series. I'd much rather have Nash try to score 50 every night to beat me rather than him having 25 points and 15 assists. Nash is more deadly when he's finding Amare for easy dunks and kicking it out to Richardson or Marion for wide open 3's than when he's the primary scorer. It's like the Pistons strategy in the finals last year where they didn't do anything special for Shaq and Kobe, but cut off the supporting cast. Nash can get his 30-40 points, but limit the damage the other guys can do and you've got a better chance at winning.

The problem with the Dallas strategy is that they were almost actively leaving Nash open. Their is a reason he shot 20-28 from the floor, and it is because he was WIDE, WIDE, WIDE open. Dallas went under screens for some wide open Nash 3s, they double teamed Amare off the pick and roll for some easy Nash layups. And they stayed on the outside shooters no matter what mis-match the Mavs had on Nash, for even more easy shots.

Amare and the rest didn't have good games either. The outside shooters needed to start making cuts off Nash's penetration, and Amare had a horrible game catching the ball, which made the Mavs defense work perfectly. The problem is that with 2 days to review the tape, GUARANTEED the Suns are going to have a scheme to combat this defensive play (probably still resulting in Nash scoring alot), BUT also allowing the other guys to get in the game. I still don't think this plan works long term (it really only worked for the first half when the Suns only scored 50). The Suns will gladly score 59 points like they did in the second half every half.

Yes they did leave him open. And with 2 days off the Suns will find something they can exploit, but I like their strategy if they can modify it to not give Nash as many open looks. I like the point of the strategy: have Nash try to beat them with scoring instead of beating them with him hitting guys for wide open 3s or Amare for easy dunks. If I'm Dallas I'd rather have nash score 48 pts, 3 assists every night than Nash scoring 25pts with 15+ assists. Nash is more deadly when he's finding everyone else than when he's the primary scorer. Last night was his career high in points if I heard ESPN right so it's not a given he'll score that much again.

I don't see why everyone's focusing on Nash. The Suns scored scored 110 points last night, and shot a good percentage, most games they win with that offensive production. The Suns main problem last night was their defense and defensive rebounding which is why I don't understand how Hunter only played 1 minute last night, that's just a mistake by D'Antoni. With Johnson out they should play Hunter at Center, move Amare to PF, Marion at SF, Q at SG, and Nash at the point. If they can rebound the ball they can get out on the fast break and get dunks or set up for open 3's. Keep Jackson on the bench, he's a lot more effective that way than as a starter. I'm sure the Suns will make some adjustments, and expect some improvement from the rest of the Suns players in Game 5.

I don't see why everyone's focusing on Nash. The Suns scored scored 110 points last night, and shot a good percentage, most games they win with that offensive production. The Suns main problem last night was their defense and defensive rebounding which is why I don't understand how Hunter only played 1 minute last night, that's just a mistake by D'Antoni. With Johnson out they should play Hunter at Center, move Amare to PF, Marion at SF, Q at SG, and Nash at the point. If they can rebound the ball they can get out on the fast break and get dunks or set up for open 3's. Keep Jackson on the bench, he's a lot more effective that way than as a starter. I'm sure the Suns will make some adjustments, and expect some improvement from the rest of the Suns players in Game 5.

They focus on Nash because he's what makes the offense run. They could double him, but he'd still find a way to get it to the others. So, they leave him wide open, make him shoot first, pass second, which disrupts everything about the Suns' game plan(Steve said so himself), and also tires Nash out alot quicker, which is a good thing with JJ gone(he might be back next game, though).

I don't see why everyone's focusing on Nash. The Suns scored scored 110 points last night, and shot a good percentage, most games they win with that offensive production. The Suns main problem last night was their defense and defensive rebounding which is why I don't understand how Hunter only played 1 minute last night, that's just a mistake by D'Antoni. With Johnson out they should play Hunter at Center, move Amare to PF, Marion at SF, Q at SG, and Nash at the point. If they can rebound the ball they can get out on the fast break and get dunks or set up for open 3's. Keep Jackson on the bench, he's a lot more effective that way than as a starter. I'm sure the Suns will make some adjustments, and expect some improvement from the rest of the Suns players in Game 5.
I think the main problem with the Suns is always their defensive rebounding, which is really ironic for a team thats into fast breaking.

Big win for the Suns tonight, 114-108, Nasher killed, he had a huge triple double. Amare went for 33 and 18 as well.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Mavs really have the guns to keep up with Phoenix. I thought the loss of KVH and JJ would favour the Mavs. But Phoenix just has too many guys who can score, especially if Finley doesn't play well.

I think this series goes seven though.

Big win for the Suns tonight, 114-108, Nasher killed, he had a huge triple double. Amare went for 33 and 18 as well.

I'm beginning to wonder if the Mavs really have the guns to keep up with Phoenix. I thought the loss of KVH and JJ would favour the Mavs. But Phoenix just has too many guys who can score, especially if Finley doesn't play well.

I think this series goes seven though.

How does the loss of KVH favor the Mavs? With him, the Mavs would have the firepower to keep up with the Suns.

Tough loss for the Mavs, but man, is the media ever overrating the Suns. A few quotes from the game by the TNT crew:

"They may not compare with Detroit and San Antonio, but the Suns are playing some good defense"

Well, you can bring up the many posessions argument, but 108 points allowed usually isn't great defense. And that was with Dallas rushing alot of their shots at the end. That wasn't totally overrating them, but the next one is gold:

"As good as Jerry Stackhouse has been playing, with 26 points off the bench, but Jim Jackson has had 21 points so far this game"

It speaks for itself. JJ also started that game, too, and played many more minutes.

How does the loss of KVH favor the Mavs? With him, the Mavs would have the firepower to keep up with the Suns.It speaks for itself. JJ also started that game, too, and played many more minutes.
JJ is Joe Johnson, not Jim Jackson, and JJ is better than KVH.

JJ is Joe Johnson, not Jim Jackson, and JJ is better than KVH.

Both are JJ. Jim Jackson is JJ2, I guess.

The second one's certainly debatable. I'd rather have KVH, to be honest, but both are good.

BTW, where'd u get KVH was better than JJ from? I didn't say that in any quote except this one.

Well, you can bring up the many posessions argument, but 108 points allowed usually isn't great defense.

Enough about the Suns' defense already.

"Well, you can bring up any argument you want, but 115 points allowed per game usually isn't great defense" reference the Mavs.


So apparently the Mavs great superiority in defense simply isn't saving them against the Suns offense.

Enough about the Suns' defense already.

"Well, you can bring up any argument you want, but 115 points allowed per game usually isn't great defense" reference the Mavs.


So apparently the Mavs great superiority in defense simply isn't saving them against the Suns offense.
its not even bad defence, ppp is much for accurate than points per possession. The Suns essentially play their games with more time on the clock. Something that HR has yet to realize, and it has shown all playoffs and all season. If they really do have the worst defence in the league, they wouldn't win 62 games.

On a side note:

Tim Duncan became only the fifth player in NBA history to earn All-NBA first-team honors in each of his first eight seasons Wednesday, joining Hall of Famers Larry Bird, George Mikan, Bob Pettit and Oscar Robertson

First team:

Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash

On a side note:



First team:

Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Dirk Nowitzki
Allen Iverson
Steve Nash
pretty tough to argue with that, only thing even debatable would be Stoudemire over Nowitzki, but like I said, pretty tough to argue with any of those. Actually, I posted this way too late in the day, I was tired. Stoudemire was a center so he couldn't replace Nowitzki anyways. So really he would have had to replace Shaq, and although he was statistically better I'm not going to win an arguement suggesting he should have made first team.

Now that's how an MVP plays :teach:

How does the loss of KVH favor the Mavs? With him, the Mavs would have the firepower to keep up with the Suns.

Tough loss for the Mavs, but man, is the media ever overrating the Suns. A few quotes from the game by the TNT crew:

"They may not compare with Detroit and San Antonio, but the Suns are playing some good defense"

Well, you can bring up the many posessions argument, but 108 points allowed usually isn't great defense. And that was with Dallas rushing alot of their shots at the end. That wasn't totally overrating them, but the next one is gold:

"As good as Jerry Stackhouse has been playing, with 26 points off the bench, but Jim Jackson has had 21 points so far this game"

It speaks for itself. JJ also started that game, too, and played many more minutes.
Oops, yeah, I meant Joe Johnson, and I do consider the loss of him worse for Phoenix than the loss of Van Horn for Dallas, because JJ can d-up, and they really need that beside Nash and Quinton, whereas Van Horn is only a backup for Howard/Nowitzki.

Enough about the Suns' defense already.

"Well, you can bring up any argument you want, but 115 points allowed per game usually isn't great defense" reference the Mavs.


So apparently the Mavs great superiority in defense simply isn't saving them against the Suns offense.

I never did say the Mavs played great defense last night, and I never will. It was a terrible effort, and if they want to, they can play better, but that's not the game plan. The game plan is to keep up with Phoenix, so they are lax on defense. Dallas is better than Phoenix defensively, but the Suns are a fair bit better offensively.

Thanks for a great one Reggie.

Reggie Miller :clap:

Thanks for a great one Reggie.
Concur.

I loved how the Pistons all came to the middle of the court as they called a 20 second timeout to let everybody give Reggie a standing ovation. He means everything to those fans and those fans mean everything to him... :handclap:

Here's to one of my favorites in Reggie. He's calling it quits after an outstanding career that was still productive, but at least he won't go out as a shadow of his former self. Thanks Reggie, one of the biggest reasons I got into Basketball and you will be fondly remembered.

and Duncan goes down

Have a great life Reggie, you blessed a lot of basketball fans with your flair and clutch shooting.

A very cool thing was Miller talking to Hamilton after the game. Sounds like Hamilton really looks up to Miller and has learned a lot from him in the matchup they've had in the playoffs the last 2 years. Must have meant a lot to "Rip". Miller was fun to watch especially against the Knicks and that shot he made against the Bulls was awesome drama. Sadly no more Miller Time. He had a great career. :handclap:

Reggie against the Bulls is my first ever basketball memory. Class act Reggie.

Cheers to Reggie :cheers:

Thanks for the memories :clap:

I'll never forget his showdowns at the Garden with the Knicks and Spike Lee.

Reggie, welcome to your Carlsberg years.

:clap:

Suns/Mavs start in about an hour, I'm goin to the sommerset pub to watch it. Hope it will be a good one, I'd really like to see the Suns advance, I've never seen them have a team this good, and my favorite team hasn't won a non-grey cup title since the 1993 Blue Jays. 93 was a great year for me. Suns in the finals, Habs, Jays, Eskimos win titles, Chiefs have a great year. If only every year could be 93:(

Steve Nash is showing why he is the MVP

what a game, best part was when my buddy went to the bar when the suns were down 16, and came back just as Nash drained a 3 to close it to 3 and was like wtf. Suns are a great team, and now they have accomplished what nobody on this board said they would. If, and I stress if, they beat the Spurs, they will take it all.

what a game, best part was when my buddy went to the bar when the suns were down 16, and came back just as Nash drained a 3 to close it to 3 and was like wtf. Suns are a great team, and now they have accomplished what nobody on this board said they would. If, and I stress if, they beat the Spurs, they will take it all.
can you believe that shot that sent it to overtime - jordonesque

can you believe that shot that sent it to overtime - jordonesque
I was watching and my buddy is like Nash will take it blah blah and I'm like no he wont then he pulls up and shoots and it was perfect. I was....man. It was incredible. Then the back to back 3's in overtime by Nash/Marion I was like this thing is over. That is an absolute dagger. To be up 4 and then down 2 so fast in overtime is a painful death.

I was watching and my buddy is like Nash will take it blah blah and I'm like no he wont then he pulls up and shoots and it was perfect. I was....man. It was incredible. Then the back to back 3's in overtime by Nash/Marion I was like this thing is over. That is an absolute dagger. To be up 4 and then down 2 so fast in overtime is a painful death.
a short kid from victoria lites up the nba - unthinkable!

I was watching and my buddy is like Nash will take it blah blah and I'm like no he wont then he pulls up and shoots and it was perfect. I was....man. It was incredible. Then the back to back 3's in overtime by Nash/Marion I was like this thing is over. That is an absolute dagger. To be up 4 and then down 2 so fast in overtime is a painful death.
a short kid from victoria lites up the nba - unthinkable! - this is gretzky esq - no matter what happens now

so much for the suns not keeping it up. Everything I have said about them has been true. I said the mavs would struggle because of their shotty play at home against a road juggernaut and it cost them in the end. I fear the Spurs, they had our number all year, but they weren't very good on the road this year and in a 7 game series, without homecourt, that could haunt them.

so much for the suns not keeping it up. Everything I have said about them has been true. I said the mavs would struggle because of their shotty play at home against a road juggernaut and it cost them in the end. I fear the Spurs, they had our number all year, but they weren't very good on the road this year and in a 7 game series, without homecourt, that could haunt them.
coming back to beat cuban - what can you say? - i say spurs in 6 - but nash'll go down in flames with the whole league knowing what he's made of - the detractors out there have been silenced -

they may give duncan a run - ps - they're underdogs now more than ever - it's sweet - nuttin ta lose

Well done Suns. :clap:
Hopefully more people will follow the Mavs and Suns' example and give us high energy offences next season!


The Conference finals are looking very tight on both sides. Miami's hopes will depend in larg on Shaq's leg while Suns-Spurs will be a great battle.

Well done Suns. :clap:
Hopefully more people will follow the Mavs and Suns' example and give us high energy offences next season!


The Conference finals are looking very tight on both sides. Miami's hopes will depend in larg on Shaq's leg while Suns-Spurs will be a great battle.
ya detroit's defense vs shaq on one leg and wade - awesome

nash and amare vs duncan ( and for what it's worth for the real fans - robert horry - do a google on that guy - ring city )

Mr. Nowitzki needs to take a good, long hard look at himself in the mirror. Razzing out Jason terry for bad defence? Nowitzki was one of the worst Mavericks out there tonight outside of Finley, especially defensivly where for lack of a better term Marion made him his *****. What a teamate :shakehead I hope he apologizes to Terry who actually rose to the occasion tonight. Yes I know Dirk had the points, but he should be getting those regardless, he did not raise his level of play like Terry and Stackhouse did, and yet he has the nerve to get on everybody else. I have lost a ton of respect for Nowitzki this series, you want to be a leader? Act like it, calling out Terry and Dampier (even though he sucks) isn't going to make you respect them, at least not in public, that's what closed door meetings are for.

Who will Bowen terrorize now?

Nash? Marion?

Who will Bowen terrorize now?

Nash? Marion?
Bowen will have to be on Nash, he couldn't handle Marion.

I said the mavs would struggle because of their shotty play at home against a road juggernaut and it cost them in the end.

Dallas was 29-12 at home this year, Suns were 31-10 on the road. If the Mavs play at home was shotty...the Suns weren't much better on the road ;).

Good game tonight. Nash had 3 great games to lead his team past the 2nd round. Overall a fun series to watch. I don't think they'll beat San Antonio. They were the team the Suns couldn't beat this year when the Spurs were at full strength. I say Spurs in 6.

Bowen will have to be on Nash, he couldn't handle Marion.

He can handle any player in the NBA.

He can handle any player in the NBA.
Shaq? :)

Duncan is about 70%. I say the Suns take this series, especially with home court advantage. If Duncan would've been at full health, the Suns wouldn't last for more than 5/6 games IMO. A healthy Tim Duncan in the playoffs will average a series with 30 - 17 - 6 and 5, in fact, add a few more points and those were about the same averages he had against Martin/Mutombo in the 2003 finals, and the Suns have no one even close of slowing him down.

Either way, Suns in 6 or 7. Spurs are too dependent on Tim..

Well the conference finals are set :yo: And they should be 2 very interesting series. I'm gonna go with Heat-Suns in the finals.

Mr. Nowitzki needs to take a good, long hard look at himself in the mirror. Razzing out Jason terry for bad defence? Nowitzki was one of the worst Mavericks out there tonight outside of Finley, especially defensivly where for lack of a better term Marion made him his *****. What a teamate :shakehead I hope he apologizes to Terry who actually rose to the occasion tonight. Yes I know Dirk had the points, but he should be getting those regardless, he did not raise his level of play like Terry and Stackhouse did, and yet he has the nerve to get on everybody else. I have lost a ton of respect for Nowitzki this series, you want to be a leader? Act like it, calling out Terry and Dampier (even though he sucks) isn't going to make you respect them, at least not in public, that's what closed door meetings are for.

He got on Terry at the end of the 4th quarter because quite simply, Terry ****ed up. He was supposed to foul Nash well before he came up to shoot a 3, forcing the Suns to settle for 2 points at the foul line, and run a little more clock in having to foul someone on the Mavs after that.

He got on Terry at the end of the 4th quarter because quite simply, Terry ****ed up. He was supposed to foul Nash well before he came up to shoot a 3, forcing the Suns to settle for 2 points at the foul line, and run a little more clock in having to foul someone on the Mavs after that.
Actually I could care less why he went nuts on Terry, Nowitzki totally overreacted and looked liked a punk and a ******* last night instead of the leader he is suppose to be. Lost a ton of respect for that man last night with his tantrums last night, espicially after he goes 0-5 in overtime including a bricking a three point attempt at the end.

Quite simply Nowitzki needs to growup and quit showing up his teammates publicly.

He got on Terry at the end of the 4th quarter because quite simply, Terry ****ed up. He was supposed to foul Nash well before he came up to shoot a 3, forcing the Suns to settle for 2 points at the foul line, and run a little more clock in having to foul someone on the Mavs after that.

Nowitzki was too angry. If he didn't explode at Terry, Mavs could have won in OT. He was so pissed that he missed five shots. Easy ones too (except for the three pointer).

Ott=Snott, I will not go your way and I will actually cheer for the Spurs. I believe that they can win.

Nash just had one of the greatest series in the history of the NBA.

Does Shawn Marion have the ugliest shot in the NBA or what? I can't believe it actually goes in sometimes.

Dallas was 29-12 at home this year, Suns were 31-10 on the road. If the Mavs play at home was shotty...the Suns weren't much better on the road ;).

Good game tonight. Nash had 3 great games to lead his team past the 2nd round. Overall a fun series to watch. I don't think they'll beat San Antonio. They were the team the Suns couldn't beat this year when the Spurs were at full strength. I say Spurs in 6.
I was talking about in the playoffs where they went 3-4 with numerous blowout losses and the games they did win were very close.

He can handle any player in the NBA.
I don't think he could physically handle somebody as athletic as Marion, not a knock on Bowen. he also gives up 20 pounds. He would be much more effective against Nash.

I don't think he could physically handle somebody as athletic as Marion, not a knock on Bowen. he also gives up 20 pounds. He would be much more effective against Nash.

Bowen plays SG/SF. I don't see how he will defend Marion who's a PF. Marion will be defended by Nazr Mohammed most likely while Stoudamire will be guarded by Tim Duncan. Bowen will be on either Quentin Richardson or JJ.

BTW, read this rather comical article:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2005/columns/story?columnist=james_brian&id=2065520

Spurs win the first by 7. Duncan still not completely healthy yet..

Barry, Manu, Parker and Duncan all had over 20 points. Amare had 41.

Spurs show why they're a perennial contender and simply looked the better _team_ today. Amare Stoudamire was extremely impressive, but the Spurs have so much chemistry and play as such a cohesive unit.

Great win by the Spurs, beating the Suns in their own arena to take game 1. :handclap:

I was talking about in the playoffs where they went 3-4 with numerous blowout losses and the games they did win were very close.

Well the Mavs lost by 10+ in 2 of em and lost by less than 5 (1 in OT) in the other so I don't see the "numerous blowouts", and they did blow the Rockets out by 40 as well as beating your Suns by 10 so those wasn't very close wins. I wasn't trying to argue the point in my earlier post, just trying to mess with you which was indicated by the wink.

Must have been a pretty good game today. Didn't get to see it cause I was out with my family for dinner. For what was argued about Marion in earlier posts, he didn't do much today I thought he would do better. 43 points by the Spurs in the 4th quarter is pretty impressive, especially in a playoff game. Either their offense was on fire in the 4th quarter, the Suns defense sucked in the 4th quarter, or a combination of both.

well, today sucked, but don't count on this being the norm for the series, as I'm sure nobody will, even in a 43 point 4th quarter the game was pretty close.

I don't think he could physically handle somebody as athletic as Marion, not a knock on Bowen. he also gives up 20 pounds. He would be much more effective against Nash.

Instead of Duncan, it was primarely Bowen who guarded Marion, his stats: he shot 1 out of 6 for 3 points, 4 fouls in 38 minutes.

well, today sucked, but don't count on this being the norm for the series, as I'm sure nobody will, even in a 43 point 4th quarter the game was pretty close.

I know. I wouldn't expect San Antonio to keep giving up 114 points. However, the Suns playing bad defnse? That will be the norm for the series.

SA can't stop the screen and roll either. If Phoenix realy wanted to, they can get Nash a wide open foul shot on every possesion it seems. Nash has managed to get himself wide open looks due to his passing ability, as opposed to the more normal route of athletic ability. It is truly beautiful to watch.

I expect Phoenix to continue scoring, putting the pressure squarely on the SA offense vs Phoenix D. We will see what happens, but I think Phoenix is in good shape despite losing that game.

I know. I wouldn't expect San Antonio to keep giving up 114 points. However, the Suns playing bad defnse? That will be the norm for the series.
I've already proven the Suns defence isn't bad.

I've already proven the Suns defence isn't bad.
No you haven't.

The Suns need to prove that the Suns defense isn't bad, not you.

No you haven't.

The Suns need to prove that the Suns defense isn't bad, not you.
the answer lies in the stats my friend, I have proven it with stats that their defence is not bad.

the answer lies in the stats my friend, I have proven it with stats that their defence is not bad.

How many times can we tell you, FG% does not indicate how well a defense does. It can be very deceiving, as teams can just have bad shooting nights, or, they force up bad shots to keep up with their high-scoring offense.

PPG is what indicates the strength of defense, not FG%.

Manu Ginobili is one of the most dynamic players in the NBA. I hear he's pretty popular back in Argentina, its great to have guys like him to spread sports around the world.

How many times can we tell you, FG% does not indicate how well a defense does. It can be very deceiving, as teams can just have bad shooting nights, or, they force up bad shots to keep up with their high-scoring offense.

PPG is what indicates the strength of defense, not FG%.
you have obviously read 0 of my posts. Points per possession is where strength of defence lies, not something like ppg which is effectively useless.

you have obviously read 0 of my posts. Points per possession is where strength of defence lies, not something like ppg which is effectively useless.

Points per possession isn't that much better than FG%. If the other team goes down, forces a bad shot, and misses, that's 0 points for that possession. If the Suns slowed their offense down, then there'd be less points, but then again, the other team could slow down too, and score more points. Quite the Catch 22 on defense they got there. Either way, the Suns' d blows.

I've already proven the Suns defence isn't bad.

Giving up the most points per game(you know, the one stat that determines who wins and loses games) says otherwise.

Just like you proved Bowen couldn't defend Marion right FOTS?

Giving up the most points per game(you know, the one stat that determines who wins and loses games) says otherwise.
points per possession determines who wins or loses games too you know. I like how nobody is actually willing to look into the stats at all.

Points per possession isn't that much better than FG%. If the other team goes down, forces a bad shot, and misses, that's 0 points for that possession. If the Suns slowed their offense down, then there'd be less points, but then again, the other team could slow down too, and score more points. Quite the Catch 22 on defense they got there. Either way, the Suns' d blows.
That made absolutly 0 sense pal. The Suns don't kill the clock when they have the ball, which is the trademark of the Pistons and Spurs, the Suns do however hold teams to a low percentage from the field, on a per possession basis this correlates with the number of points they allow. You are just too afraid to admit it.

points per possession determines who wins or loses games too you know. I like how nobody is actually willing to look into the stats at all.

yeah that was a pretty stupid post saying points allowed is the thing that most directly defines defense. The suns will however need to learn to slow it down and play real defense, instead of rushing other teams out of their offense, the spurs won't fall for that. I still like the suns in the series, but they'll have to work their ***** off for it and maybe catch a break or two.

points per possession determines who wins or loses games too you know. I like how nobody is actually willing to look into the stats at all.

I ask again....when was the last time a team was awarded a win based on the points per possession they gave up in a game? There's no need to look any further into the stats, when the stats CLEARLY show that the Suns are the worst defensive team in the league in the ONE SINGLE stat that determines the outcome of games....points.

That made absolutly 0 sense pal. The Suns don't kill the clock when they have the ball, which is the trademark of the Pistons and Spurs, the do however hold teams to a low percentage from the field, on a per possession basis this correlates with the number of points they allow. You are just too afraid to admit it.

No, they dont. They are right in the middle of the pack in FG%. Nice try though.

I ask again....when was the last time a team was awarded a win based on the points per possession they gave up in a game? There's no need to look any further into the stats, when the stats CLEARLY show that the Suns are the worst defensive team in the league in the ONE SINGLE stat that determines the outcome of games....points.

We are talking about indications of defense, not what determines wins(teams aren't given wins just for holding opponents to the avg fewest ppg in the league), its having more pts than your opponent, and if allowing more pts to them means you score more, then so be it, doesnt necessarily prove you are bad defensively. It's simply a strategy(often employed by those with defense deficiencies, but not at all a proof of it). Pts per 100 possessions is a far better indication of defense, since it assumes that everyone maintains the same pace in the game and has the same amount of defensive attempts.

We are talking about indications of defense, not what determines wins(teams aren't given wins just for holding opponents to the avg fewest ppg in the league), its having more pts than your opponent, and if allowing more pts to them means you score more, then so be it, doesnt necessarily prove you are bad defensively. It's simply a strategy(often employed by those with defense deficiencies, but not at all a proof of it). Pts per 100 possessions is a far better indication of defense, since it assumes that everyone maintains the same pace in the game and has the same amount of defensive attempts.

Well its an absolutely horrible assumption to make then, since all teams dont play the same style.

And once again, the Suns cannot get a stop in crunch time, giving up layups at will. Suns will be lucky if this series goes more than 5 games. A sweep wouldnt shock me now. That vaunted points per posession argument doesnt help when you are running a layup drill the last 4-5 minutes of the 4th quarter.

I ask again....when was the last time a team was awarded a win based on the points per possession they gave up in a game? There's no need to look any further into the stats, when the stats CLEARLY show that the Suns are the worst defensive team in the league in the ONE SINGLE stat that determines the outcome of games....points.


Teams aren't 'awarded' a loss for having given up the highest avg ppg either, so what's your point.


No, they dont. They are right in the middle of the pack in FG%. Nice try though.

Which has pretty much been the point, the Suns are average defensively, not God-awful.

Well its an absolutely horrible assumption to make then, since all teams dont play the same style.

You obviously don't get it, I'll stop trying now.


Note: the Sun's defense HAS been terrible the last two fourth- quarters they've played. They're not going to win many games like that.

Teams aren't 'awarded' a loss for having given up the highest avg ppg either, so what's your point.
My point is that points, and nothing else, are the ultimate determination of who wins and loses a game. Thats it. The scoreboards at the games track points as the sole determination of who wins. Not FG%, or points per posession, or anything else. Points. Therefore, giving up the most points in the league = horrible defense.



Which has pretty much been the point, the Suns are average defensively, not God-awful.
No, they arent. They are terrible. They are unbelieveably soft inside, and absolutely cannot get a stop in crunch time(see the first two games vs. the Spurs). They'd rather give up an easy layup and go running down the court than commit a hard foul and make someone earn those points.

You obviously don't get it, I'll stop trying now.


Note: the Sun's defense HAS been terrible the last two fourth- quarters they've played. They're not going to win many games like that.

I get it perfectly. There's a few Suns homers who'd like people to buy into their ridiculous beliefe that the Suns aren't a terrible defensive team, despite the fact that they allow the most points in the league(the stat that determines the outcome of a game), and what nearly everyone else who watches them play.

And once again, the Suns cannot get a stop in crunch time, giving up layups at will. Suns will be lucky if this series goes more than 5 games. A sweep wouldnt shock me now. That vaunted points per posession argument doesnt help when you are running a layup drill the last 4-5 minutes of the 4th quarter.

the per possession argument isnt about the suns, they are merely an example used to illustrate how defense should be defined statistically. I never claimed the suns had good D, just that your measure of D was completely and utterly foolish.

I get it perfectly. There's a few Suns homers who'd like people to buy into their ridiculous beliefe that the Suns aren't a terrible defensive team, despite the fact that they allow the most points in the league(the stat that determines the outcome of a game), and what nearly everyone else who watches them play.

ok ignore the suns, say a team is good defensively and can make those stops, but chooses not to b/c they can outscore their opponent by a larger margin by running and pushing the pace instead of slowing down and playing a halfcourt game. So they give up more pts a game, but are they not a better team b/c they can outscore their opponent by more using this strategy? Points per possession would support this(not that they are a better team, but that their defensive effort has not diminished merely b/c they allow more shots to be taken), as I would think would logic and common sense.

lets face it - no offensive or defensive boards and ya lose -

If Timmy D ever gets fully healthy, Spurs = going to win. They have so many clutch, solid defensive and offensive players, its absurd. Maybe not the most exciting team, but the best-executing.

If Timmy D ever gets fully healthy, Spurs = going to win. They have so many clutch, solid defensive and offensive players, its absurd. Maybe not the most exciting team, but the best-executing.
how bout nash though - almost does it again - this playoff experience is new to him as well - could this be just the beginning? - walton was losing it over the guy

If Timmy D ever gets fully healthy, Spurs = going to win. They have so many clutch, solid defensive and offensive players, its absurd. Maybe not the most exciting team, but the best-executing.

eh, i think they are just as exciting as the suns if only they didn't ***** so much about calls. If they didn't whine so much i'd probably root for them, but the look on all of their faces like they have just been told their contract is void b/c they flop so much is just too much to bare.

how bout nash though - almost does it again - this playoff experience is new to him as well - could this be just the beginning? - walton was losing it over the guy

i will agree with chaos that they need a defensive paint presence so badly since they can't seem to stop anyone. i understand with giving up some offense to help yours get running even faster, but there were far too many uncontested shots, and players that just flew by defenders. A real defensive presence in the paint would help stop some of those easy layups and the easy post up shots the spurs and other teams seem to get on the suns at will.

you're right - standing there watching hoping they miss and then standing there again as they got the rebound - nuts

how bout nash though - almost does it again - this playoff experience is new to him as well - could this be just the beginning?

Those Mavs teams he was with were in the playoffs a number of times he was there. The playoffs aren't new to Nash, he's been here before.

Ginobili! Freaking player..

With the Spurs top 3 at their best, they will be hard to beat. Very hard.

the answer lies in the stats my friend, I have proven it with stats that their defence is not bad.

From one Suns fan to another, they can't stop anybody.

No-body.

Those Mavs teams he was with were in the playoffs a number of times he was there. The playoffs aren't new to Nash, he's been here before.
did the mavs get to the west finals though?

I think the Suns are really going to benefit from Joe Johnson coming back. That should REALLY, REALLY help their Defense, and allow Nash a chance to sit on the bench a bit more than 1 minute in the 4th quarter. Phoenix is in a hole, but this series ain't done.

ok ignore the suns, say a team is good defensively and can make those stops, but chooses not to b/c they can outscore their opponent by a larger margin by running and pushing the pace instead of slowing down and playing a halfcourt game. So they give up more pts a game, but are they not a better team b/c they can outscore their opponent by more using this strategy? Points per possession would support this(not that they are a better team, but that their defensive effort has not diminished merely b/c they allow more shots to be taken), as I would think would logic and common sense.

Yes, they are a better team if they can outscore their opponent....but that only works in the regular season. Eventually, in the playoffs, its going to stop working(as evidenced by the Mavs of the past 4 years who Suns homers wanted to hear nothing about, and whats happening to the Suns now). That doesnt mean they aren't a terrible defensive team.

did the mavs get to the west finals though?
Yes...in 2003.

Yes, they are a better team if they can outscore their opponent....but that only works in the regular season. Eventually, in the playoffs, its going to stop working(as evidenced by the Mavs of the past 4 years who Suns homers wanted to hear nothing about, and whats happening to the Suns now). That doesnt mean they aren't a terrible defensive team.

ok, so you agree, points as the sole indication of defense is ignorant?(more pts allowed = bad defense) Lets not get into an arguement on the point of playing that style in the playoffs and whether or not it will work since there aren't enough examples in recent memory that don't include steve nash to draw any kind of point from. although he has had decent success in the playoffs, his style may very well leave him with a lot of conference finals berths or finals berths and no rings, but that is generally good for most teams. There is a possibility that his teams' style of play causes players to overrated simply b/c their stats are relatively higher than similar players on different teams, so expectations of the team are skewed going in. Also since the scores are generally higher, they will distance themselves further from worse teams, more so than equally efficient teams that run a slower paced offense, and thus given more credit in wins than they deserve b/c of bigger win margins. Another reason that points per 100 possessions is a reasonable assessment of both offensive and defensive efficiency.

Yes...in 2003.
cheers - i retract -

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2068382

lol, Larry Brown to leave his team again

ok, so you agree, points as the sole indication of defense is ignorant?(more pts allowed = bad defense) Lets not get into an arguement on the point of playing that style in the playoffs and whether or not it will work since there aren't enough examples in recent memory that don't include steve nash to draw any kind of point from. although he has had decent success in the playoffs, his style may very well leave him with a lot of conference finals berths or finals berths and no rings, but that is generally good for most teams. There is a possibility that his teams' style of play causes players to overrated simply b/c their stats are relatively higher than similar players on different teams, so expectations of the team are skewed going in. Also since the scores are generally higher, they will distance themselves further from worse teams, more so than equally efficient teams that run a slower paced offense, and thus given more credit in wins than they deserve b/c of bigger win margins. Another reason that points per 100 possessions is a reasonable assessment of both offensive and defensive efficiency.
No, I dont agree at all. You might not like it, but points, just like in the NFL, is the best indication of defense, because its points and points alone that determine the outcome of a game.

I think the Suns are really going to benefit from Joe Johnson coming back. That should REALLY, REALLY help their Defense, and allow Nash a chance to sit on the bench a bit more than 1 minute in the 4th quarter. Phoenix is in a hole, but this series ain't done.

That's for sure. The difference thus far in the series has been Ginobili and Parker. They're shredding Phoenix's perimeter 'defense' like Swiss cheese.

No, I dont agree at all. You might not like it, but points, just like in the NFL, is the best indication of defense, because its points and points alone that determine the outcome of a game.

Exactly. Except in the NFL, defenses IIRC are ranked by yardage given up. That's why the Colts are such a low-ranked defense, because they give up alot of yards, but not necessarily alot of points. But that's for another thread.

I ask again....when was the last time a team was awarded a win based on the points per possession they gave up in a game? There's no need to look any further into the stats, when the stats CLEARLY show that the Suns are the worst defensive team in the league in the ONE SINGLE stat that determines the outcome of games....points.
seeing as ppg is a DIRECT result of pp, yes it does. Every game is the result of possessions and so as a result, every game is decided by who does better on the possessions.

Yes, they are a better team if they can outscore their opponent....but that only works in the regular season. Eventually, in the playoffs, its going to stop working(as evidenced by the Mavs of the past 4 years who Suns homers wanted to hear nothing about, and whats happening to the Suns now). That doesnt mean they aren't a terrible defensive team.
They lose too close games and all of a sudden they are falling apart? Get over yourself. First it was, they wouldn't make the playoffs, then the division, then the best record, then you said they would go out early, then you said no chance against the Mavs. They have exceeded your every expectation, and losing to the Spurs in the conference finals with their 3rd leading scorer injured is hardly falling apart. This isn't about a clash of styles, as both games they lost were tight, close games that could have gone either way.

No, I dont agree at all. You might not like it, but points, just like in the NFL, is the best indication of defense, because its points and points alone that determine the outcome of a game.

you aren't backing it up or explaining your argument any further, you are just repeating your basic statement. So a team that scores 140 and allows 120 is worse defensively than a team that scores 80 and allows 90? Thats my argument, that teams play different styles which leads to different number of attempts in a game, so points allowed does not determine that one team is better defensively than another. How do you account for this? Just saying pts determine who wins is not a defense of your argument.

seeing as ppg is a DIRECT result of pp, yes it does. Every game is the result of possessions and so as a result, every game is decided by who does better on the possessions.

The only thing ppg is a DIRECT result of is the quality of your defense.

Jesus, Billups has already turned the ball over eight times and it's not even close to halftime. :shakehead

They lose too close games and all of a sudden they are falling apart? Get over yourself. First it was, they wouldn't make the playoffs, then the division, then the best record, then you said they would go out early, then you said no chance against the Mavs. They have exceeded your every expectation, and losing to the Spurs in the conference finals with their 3rd leading scorer injured is hardly falling apart. This isn't about a clash of styles, as both games they lost were tight, close games that could have gone either way.

I dont ever remember saying ANY of those. Please dont put words in my mouth in an attempt to make a point. I also DID NOT say they were falling apart. But if it makes you feel better to put words in my mouth and skew the argument, you go right ahead.

you aren't backing it up or explaining your argument any further, you are just repeating your basic statement. So a team that scores 140 and allows 120 is worse defensively than a team that scores 80 and allows 90? Thats my argument, that teams play different styles which leads to different number of attempts in a game, so points allowed does not determine that one team is better defensively than another. How do you account for this? Just saying pts determine who wins is not a defense of your argument.

Yes, giving up 120 points makes you worse defensively than a team that gives up 90. Its common ****ing sense.

Settle down guys.

D-Wade....superstardom is here!

D-Wade....superstardom is here!
its unreal how detroit can shut down offense though - heat better watch out - shaq daddy got to get the ball more - mourning really stepped up - ( no wonder he blew off the raptor's )

Yes, giving up 120 points makes you worse defensively than a team that gives up 90. Its common ****ing sense.

Not if the team that allows 120 is playing a 75 minute game and the team allowing 90 is playing a 40 minute game.

Not if the team that allows 120 is playing a 75 minute game and the team allowing 90 is playing a 40 minute game.
I would imagine that goes without saying.

Not if the team that allows 120 is playing a 75 minute game and the team allowing 90 is playing a 40 minute game.

But what if we come back to reality, and the team allowing 120 is playing a 48 minute game, and the team allowing 90 is playing a 48 minute game. Thats all that matters.

The only thing ppg is a DIRECT result of is the quality of your defense.
I'm through with you, you aren't looking at facts, and you have presented no evidence to support your arguement.

They lose too close games and all of a sudden they are falling apart? Get over yourself. First it was, they wouldn't make the playoffs, then the division, then the best record, then you said they would go out early, then you said no chance against the Mavs.

I dont ever remember saying ANY of those. Please dont put words in my mouth in an attempt to make a point. I also DID NOT say they were falling apart. But if it makes you feel better to put words in my mouth and skew the argument, you go right ahead.

(04-20-05)The Mavs biggest downfall was that they couldnt stop anyone(just like the Suns). The Mavs had Nick Van Exel knocking down every shot 2 years ago, so they had someone similar to Marion(not even close athletically, but in terms of just going off when he feels like it). The Suns will make it out of the first round, but thats it.

(12-14-04)Right now? Yes....come playoff time, however, they will be like the Mavs of the past 3 years when someone actually shows up and plays great defense, they will lose. They wont make it out of the 2nd round.

The rest of FOTS's ramblings are the product of his wild imagination, but you do stand on record - multiple times - on this one, without mentioning the litany of generic "can't win like that in the playoffs" posts over the past six months.

I'm through with you, you aren't looking at facts, and you have presented no evidence to support your arguement.

No evidence or facts? Exactly what do you call giving up the most points in the league? Thats not a fact because you dont like it?

The rest of FOTS's ramblings are the product of his wild imagination, but you do stand on record - multiple times - on this one, without mentioning the litany of generic "can't win like that in the playoffs" posts over the past six months.

I stand corrected. So the only thing I said was that they would go out early. I was wrong. It happens. That being said, they are going to end up just like the Mavs of 2003....great regular season, and a trip to the conference Finals only to lose to the Spurs.

I stand corrected. So the only thing I said was that they would go out early. I was wrong. It happens. That being said, they are going to end up just like the Mavs of 2003....great regular season, and a trip to the conference Finals only to lose to the Spurs.

You very well could be right... although that in itself is still a pretty successful season, just as was that of the 2003 Mavs (the team I was rooting for that playoff year).

The only thing ppg is a DIRECT result of is the quality of your defense.

WRONG.

You can lower your PPG by taking longer to shoot on the offensive end. Is wasting time offensively indicative of good defense?

Lets look at 2 extreme examples to make this more clear.

Game #1: Team A takes 10 seconds on average to score, as does Team B. This game would have 144 possesions for each team.

Game #2: Team C takes 20 seconds on average to score, as does Team D. This game would have 72 possesions for each team.

Game #3: Team A takes 10 seconds, team C takes 20 seconds.

Now, if all these teams score and defend at the same rate (which we will use 100 pts per 100 possesions), the score for Game #1 would be 144-144, and game #2 would be 72-72. Game #3 would be 96-96.

To further complicate this, good defense can cause the other team to take longer to score. But far too much of lowering the PPG is simply caused by taking longer on offense, which is most definately NOT good defense.

WRONG.

You can lower your PPG by taking longer to shoot on the offensive end. Is wasting time offensively indicative of good defense?

Lets look at 2 extreme examples to make this more clear.

Game #1: Team A takes 10 seconds on average to score, as does Team B. This game would have 144 possesions for each team.

Game #2: Team C takes 20 seconds on average to score, as does Team D. This game would have 72 possesions for each team.

Game #3: Team A takes 10 seconds, team C takes 20 seconds.

Now, if all these teams score and defend at the same rate (which we will use 100 pts per 100 possesions), the score for Game #1 would be 144-144, and game #2 would be 72-72. Game #3 would be 96-96.

To further complicate this, good defense can cause the other team to take longer to score. But far too much of lowering the PPG is simply caused by taking longer on offense, which is most definately NOT good defense.

Or, in order to lower your PPG, you can simply not allow a layup drill at your end, especially in crunch time. To me, outside of PPG, that is the best indication of defense. If you can stop people when it matters, then you are at least an average defensive team. If the Suns could stop people late in the 4th quarter when they absolutely had to, then it wouldnt matter as much that they give up 105 points a game or so. Problem is, they absolutely cannot get a stop when they need one. That to me is a perfect indication of a terrible defensive team.

You very well could be right... although that in itself is still a pretty successful season, just as was that of the 2003 Mavs (the team I was rooting for that playoff year).

Im not saying its not a sucessful season. But it just furthers along the comparison to the Mavs that Suns fans around here dont seem to want to hear.

Im not saying its not a sucessful season. But it just furthers along the comparison to the Mavs that Suns fans around here dont seem to want to hear.

The thing is that, so far, it's not the style of play that seems to be doing in the Suns against the Spurs; it's a lack of depth and experience. Now experience isn't something you gain instantly, but if the Suns had anybody that could play some minutes off the bench, perhaps the starters could have fresher legs and make a few more shots in the fourth quarter. Losing by 7 and 3 (one shot from OT) doesn't indicate that they are unable to win because of style; it's not like they aren't in the game.

Make no mistake, a loss is a loss and the Suns are in a gi-normous hole down 0-2, but I don't think anyone can look and say "wow, the Suns just would never be able to beat the Spurs playing that way".

The thing is that, so far, it's not the style of play that seems to be doing in the Suns against the Spurs; it's a lack of depth and experience. Now experience isn't something you gain instantly, but if the Suns had anybody that could play some minutes off the bench, perhaps the starters could have fresher legs and make a few more shots in the fourth quarter. Losing by 7 and 3 (one shot from OT) doesn't indicate that they are unable to win because of style; it's not like they aren't in the game.

Make no mistake, a loss is a loss and the Suns are in a gi-normous hole down 0-2, but I don't think anyone can look and say "wow, the Suns just would never be able to beat the Spurs playing that way".

Whats doing them in is the exact same thing that did the Mavs in. The complete and utter inability to get a stop when you absolutely have to have one. The Mavs were losing close games left and right as well, but they were losing because in crunch time, all they were doing was trading baskets with the opposition. Eventually, you are going to miss a shot or two, and if you can't stop anyone, that means you're going to lose.

I would imagine that goes without saying.
How can anyone that has watched the Suns play suggest that they play any defense ???

Or, in order to lower your PPG, you can simply not allow a layup drill at your end, especially in crunch time. To me, outside of PPG, that is the best indication of defense. If you can stop people when it matters, then you are at least an average defensive team. If the Suns could stop people late in the 4th quarter when they absolutely had to, then it wouldnt matter as much that they give up 105 points a game or so. Problem is, they absolutely cannot get a stop when they need one. That to me is a perfect indication of a terrible defensive team.

I agree on the ability to stop people at the end of the game. Phoenix was able to do so against Dallas, but hasn't in the first 2 games against SA. Phoenix's defense is mid pack in the NBA, and definately the worst of the 4 remaining teams. But SA probably plays better defense than Miami, yet they have given up well over 100 pts in the first 2 games, which is caused by the pace, and not their poor defense.

But what if we come back to reality, and the team allowing 120 is playing a 48 minute game, and the team allowing 90 is playing a 48 minute game. Thats all that matters.

In reality, the Suns effectively play with more time on the clock so total points scored is misleading. I can't comprehend why you consistently fail to grasp that.

I agree on the ability to stop people at the end of the game. Phoenix was able to do so against Dallas, but hasn't in the first 2 games against SA. Phoenix's defense is mid pack in the NBA, and definately the worst of the 4 remaining teams. But SA probably plays better defense than Miami, yet they have given up well over 100 pts in the first 2 games, which is caused by the pace, and not their poor defense.
Exactly, the best representation of your arguement Egil is the current series and the amount of points the Spurs are currently allowing, despite having a stellar defensive team.

Suns D is middle of the road in the NBA, I have to give them that, I hope the Spurs finish them off quick though.

In reality, the Suns effectively play with more time on the clock so total points scored is misleading. I can't comprehend why you consistently fail to grasp that.

There is nothing to grasp. The Suns play a 48 minute game, just like every other team. Good for them that they play a fast pace. You know what? That doesnt excuse them from allowing a layup drill at their own end.

There is nothing to grasp. The Suns play a 48 minute game, just like every other team. Good for them that they play a fast pace. You know what? That doesnt excuse them from allowing a layup drill at their own end.

Congratulations on subtely altering your entire arguement to avoid agreeing with the majority of posters....

Congratulations on subtely altering your entire arguement to avoid agreeing with the majority of posters....

My argument all along has been that they play TERRIBLE defense...not average, or decent, but TERRIBLE. I haven't altered anything. Not being able to stop anyone at all, especially in crunch time, signifies a TERRIBLE defensive team.

My argument all along has been that they play TERRIBLE defense...not average, or decent, but TERRIBLE. I haven't altered anything. Not being able to stop anyone at all, especially in crunch time, signifies a TERRIBLE defensive team.
i love them but - your kinda right - the last game it was very evident -

My argument all along has been that they play TERRIBLE defense...not average, or decent, but TERRIBLE. I haven't altered anything. Not being able to stop anyone at all, especially in crunch time, signifies a TERRIBLE defensive team.
They managed to stop the Mavs, and the Mavs sure couldn't stop them. I don't want to start anything, but really, they aren't an elite defensive team, but you are making them out to be the worst defensive team in the league, and I don't think that is the case at all, especially with Joe Johnson around.

They managed to stop the Mavs, and the Mavs sure couldn't stop them. I don't want to start anything, but really, they aren't an elite defensive team, but you are making them out to be the worst defensive team in the league, and I don't think that is the case at all, especially with Joe Johnson around.
getting past the mavs was awesome - they were equally lame - you can see against the spurs they're up against a much better squad - as i say - i love em - hope they can get some boards -

I'm trying to take the suns out of the argument, which i thought was about what stat most directly relates to good defense, or at the very least, the inaccuracy of PPG allowed as the measure of defense. You seem to be readily admitting that fact, then denying that you have. I've laid out the argument several times, and Egil laid it out in an even more blatant format to show you there is a difference and that it does not necessarily relate to defensive abilities. The suns are just an example of the up tempo offensive that would result in higher score, but not necessarily worse defensive efforts, not that they actually don't have worse defensive efforts. Others and I are merely debunking your logic in proving the suns have bad D. I can't argue that they can make the stop in crunch time since they've proven that they are pretty much helpless on D when the other team really wants a score. Try a different method in proving the suns have bad D, it shouldnt be too hard, but the highest PPG allowed issue is ridiculously far from fool proof, even a fool, as youve proven yourself to be, should realize this.

getting past the mavs was awesome - they were equally lame - you can see against the spurs they're up against a much better squad - as i say - i love em - hope they can get some boards -
Exactly, the Mavs are not significantly better or worse than the Suns defensively IMO.

But I hope the Spurs finish them off quick and lay the wood to Miami/Detroit.

I'm proud with the way the Spurs have play in the fourth quarter against the Suns. Amazing for them to come back in both games.

Nice article to what some like to see as the difference maker for the Spurs in whichever series they're playing; Bruce Bowen.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/27/AR2005052701350.html

Joe Johnson is back tonight.


The Suns will smoke, SMOKE, the Spurs tonight.

Joe Johnson is back tonight.


The Suns will smoke, SMOKE, the Spurs tonight.

I think some people are really overrating Joe Johnson. Sure, he's a good player, but its not like Jim Jackson has been invisible since Johnson's injury. Suns will fall apart in the 4th quarter tonight, proving once again that they are absolutely terrible defensively.

Suns gave up 38 points in the 1st quarter.

Someone explain to me again how they are a good defensive team...

Suns gave up 38 points in the 1st quarter.

Someone explain to me again how they are a good defensive team...

You'll just get the whole "points per posession" argument, which doesnt help when you can't stop a layup. Doesn't help that their supposed best perimeter defender is getting ***** by Tony Parker.

You'll just get the whole "points per posession" argument, which doesnt help when you can't stop a layup. Doesn't help that their supposed best perimeter defender is getting ***** by Tony Parker.

Ya, I FOTS had a whole explaination ready for that last time. Phoenix just had a bad defence, plain and simple.

Joe Johnson is back tonight.


The Suns will smoke, SMOKE, the Spurs tonight.

Apparently Joe Johnson is God. :shakehead

Apparently Joe Johnson is God. :shakehead

No, just overhyped by Suns fans and the idiots on ESPN. He's had a decent offensive game thus far, but is getting completely destroyed on the defensive end...and he's supposedly the Suns best perimeter defender. Ouch.

Ownage!

That is all.

This game and this series is over :( The future NBA Champs are too good.

Amare is scoring at will.

Game over...Spurs up 3-0.

Game over...Spurs up 3-0.
It just sets the Greatest Starting 5 In NBA History up for an epic series comeback.

It just sets the Greatest Starting 5 In NBA History up for an epic series comeback.

It would have to be the greatest comeback in NBA history as well :D

Man, TD is great, thats why I'm a fan.

I still maintain the Suns are not the worst team in the league defensively though, the Hawks, Raptors, Hornets and other bottom feeders are worse, I'd even say the Mavs are still worse.

That said, finish them off San Antonio.

I still maintain the Suns are not the worst team in the league defensively though, the Hawks, Raptors, Hornets and other bottom feeders are worse, I'd even say the Mavs are still worse.


I disagree. The Suns have many defensive holes. Aside from Marion, they're all very bad defensively. The Mavs, OTOH, don't really have a defensive hole. Dirk is the closest thing to that, and he's better than people say he is. With supercoach coaching full-time next year, they should improve ten-fold next year.

BTW, as much as I hate the Spurs, great for them to show the Suns that you can't win with just offense. And while the Suns beat the Mavs, I truly think the Mavs would've put up a much better fight than the Suns. Wouldn't have been great, high-scoring basketball, but the games would've been very intense and exciting.

No, just overhyped by Suns fans and the idiots on ESPN. He's had a decent offensive game thus far, but is getting completely destroyed on the defensive end...and he's supposedly the Suns best perimeter defender. Ouch.
he's also playing with one eye, lets not get up on the guy while he's down. Spurs kicked our ass and I don't see us coming back, but until the Spurs win 4 its not over. If the Spurs win, they deserve. No excuses, they simply outplayed us. A healthy JJ could have made the difference in the first 2 games, but **** happens. Spurs are a great team, and should they prevail, the Suns deficiency is not defence, as the Spurs defence has been only slightly better this series, but depth. Losing JJ hurt, but is the Suns didnt have to play with just 5 players for most of the Mavs series they wouldn't be as burnt and wouldn't have worn out at the end of the first 2 games. I hoped they could overcome it, but they haven't. Depth is an issue, but the Suns are the youngest team in the league, and will be back if they don't pull off a miracle. Depth will improve in the next year or two, and that's all it will take. The Spurs are the only team in the nba capable of beating the Suns over 7 games, and it looks like they may only need 4 to do that. The sad thing is, everybody will remember the Suns losing for defence which wasn't the case. The Suns have lit up the Spurs defence like it was a puddle of gasoline, the Spurs defence hasn't stopped the Suns. The Spurs advantage was the bench, and it was a much bigger advantage than I, and many others thought it would. It did concern me, and I didn't think it would factor in this hugely, but it did. There is no fault for that, only credit to the Spurs organization for building an outstanding team.

You'll just get the whole "points per posession" argument, which doesnt help when you can't stop a layup. Doesn't help that their supposed best perimeter defender is getting ***** by Tony Parker.
OMG 1 quarter. You do realize the Spurs are the only team in the entire nba to have any sort of success against the Suns right?

Wow, Marion has been shut-out in this series. A combined 20 points in three game. Great job by Bowen so far.

DUNCAN = :bow:

Go Spurs Go!

EDIT--- Spurs are 44-4 at home this year, including the playoffs. :eek: Talk about home advantage.

he's also playing with one eye, lets not get up on the guy while he's down. Spurs kicked our ass and I don't see us coming back, but until the Spurs win 4 its not over. If the Spurs win, they deserve. No excuses, they simply outplayed us. A healthy JJ could have made the difference in the first 2 games, but **** happens. Spurs are a great team, and should they prevail, the Suns deficiency is not defence, as the Spurs defence has been only slightly better this series, but depth. Losing JJ hurt, but is the Suns didnt have to play with just 5 players for most of the Mavs series they wouldn't be as burnt and wouldn't have worn out at the end of the first 2 games. I hoped they could overcome it, but they haven't. Depth is an issue, but the Suns are the youngest team in the league, and will be back if they don't pull off a miracle. Depth will improve in the next year or two, and that's all it will take. The Spurs are the only team in the nba capable of beating the Suns over 7 games, and it looks like they may only need 4 to do that. The sad thing is, everybody will remember the Suns losing for defence which wasn't the case. The Suns have lit up the Spurs defence like it was a puddle of gasoline, the Spurs defence hasn't stopped the Suns. The Spurs advantage was the bench, and it was a much bigger advantage than I, and many others thought it would. It did concern me, and I didn't think it would factor in this hugely, but it did. There is no fault for that, only credit to the Spurs organization for building an outstanding team.

No, he's playing with 2 eyes. If he was playing withe one eye, he wouldnt be playing at all. The Spurs defense has been only SLIGHTLY better this series? Nice one. The Spurs have actually been able to make stops when they needed to. The Suns have lit up the Spurs the first 2 games because the Spurs got caught up playing the Suns style of play. That didnt happen in game 3, and the Suns were limited to 92 points.

Man, TD is great, thats why I'm a fan.

I still maintain the Suns are not the worst team in the league defensively though, the Hawks, Raptors, Hornets and other bottom feeders are worse, I'd even say the Mavs are still worse.

That said, finish them off San Antonio.

The Mavs improved their defence this year. It's better than the Suns in my opinion, especially when Johnson took over the coaching duties.

OMG 1 quarter. You do realize the Spurs are the only team in the entire nba to have any sort of success against the Suns right?

Its more than 1 quarter. Its every quarter. It just stands out more in the 4th quarter because thats when the game is on the line. So much for the best starting 5 in NBA history.

Man, TD is great, thats why I'm a fan.

I still maintain the Suns are not the worst team in the league defensively though, the Hawks, Raptors, Hornets and other bottom feeders are worse, I'd even say the Mavs are still worse.

That said, finish them off San Antonio.

Not a chance in hell the Mavs are worse defensively than the Suns. Outside of Marion, the Suns are a defensive black hole. Dirk is probably the worst defender on the Mavs, and he's not nearly as bad as people and the media make him out to be. With AJ having a full season to implement his system, I expect them to be even better defensively next year.

So much for the best starting 5 in NBA history.

No you see they didn't have Johnson. He made the difference :rolleyes:

Spurs are a great team, and should they prevail, the Suns deficiency is not defence, as the Spurs defence has been only slightly better this series, but depth.

The Suns have lit up the Spurs defence like it was a puddle of gasoline, the Spurs defence hasn't stopped the Suns. The Spurs advantage was the bench, and it was a much bigger advantage than I, and many others thought it would. It did concern me, and I didn't think it would factor in this hugely, but it did. There is no fault for that, only credit to the Spurs organization for building an outstanding team.

Here's where you are wrong. The Spurs are that versatile that they can run and gun with the best of them. Popovich decided to play the Suns' own game in Phoenix and didn't play their own game untill last night in San Antonio. It worked in all of them. The Spurs are the best defensive team in the NBA ever since Duncan arrived, they have managed the best record since that span and are a little bitty better defensively than you seem to think. Good defensive teams slow down offenses, great defensive teams come up clutch and win. What makes the Spurs so dangerous is that they can not only lock you out in crunchtime, at the same time they can also add it up a notch offensively.

The Spurs are the only team in the nba capable of beating the Suns over 7 games

I think the Pistons would have given the Suns trouble in the finals had they met.

Here's an argument to end the debate, and prove the Suns are a bad defensive team. They don't have a bad FG%, but unfortunately when teams take bad shots to get into the game, teams will never shoot well against them. And then there's points per possession. Well, when you do take those bad shots, and your possessions add up because of the Suns' style of play, points per possession should be fairly low.

But then, there's the argument that because of their style of play, they're playing a 60 minute game, not a 48 minute game. And you know, you're right, considering that, they only allow 82.63 PPG, which would be best in the NBA. But now, let's put their offense in that situation. Their offense would then only score 88.33 PPG, good enough for worst in the NBA. So, we've been misled. They aren't a bad defensive team, they're a bad offensive team. :huh:

So, now that we all know how ridiculous that sounds, I think it's obvious that the Suns are indeed a bad defensive team.

But then, there's the argument that because of their style of play, they're playing a 60 minute game, not a 48 minute game.
That was never an arguement, that was a way of putting it through your skull of how possessions effect the total score. If they had the worst defence they wouldn't have won 62 games, and they most certainly wouldn't be in the conference finals, no matter how good their offence was. How do you think teams got behind in the first place? You can't just say the Suns outscored them, the Suns stopped them too. They didn't have such a massive margin of victory because their defence sucked I can tell you that.

Ginobili is going to win MVP. He is going to have a huge finals.

Ginobili is going to win MVP. He is going to have a huge finals.
I think he deserves it but you and everyone else know TD will win it because his name is TD.

Not a chance in hell the Mavs are worse defensively than the Suns. Outside of Marion, the Suns are a defensive black hole. Dirk is probably the worst defender on the Mavs, and he's not nearly as bad as people and the media make him out to be. With AJ having a full season to implement his system, I expect them to be even better defensively next year.

You won't see me argue that the Suns aren't among the worst defenders in the league. After game 2 I was saying that the Suns were close enough to the Spurs to win either of those games playing their way, but game 3 was the first time that it really looked like they had no chance from the opening tip. Totally outclassed. I'd like to see a game 5 back in Phoenix, but I'm not counting on it. The Spurs will be a tough play for either team in the Finals.

The Heat played a great game last night. Wade once again played a great game and the supporting cast really stepped up in the 4th showing how deep Miami is. How about Shaq hitting his FT's :D

If the Suns want to win, start Hunter. He can actually play defence.

If the Suns want to win, start Hunter. He can actually play defence.
Hunter can't do anything.

Hunter can't do anything.
Offensively, you are correct. However, he's actually a decent defender, from what I've seen. Something the Suns obviously have no clue at all about.

suns well done

Suns steal one from the Spurs. Nash really got away with a shove into Duncan's back there at the end, although Stoudemire made a great play to block the dunk.

lotsa strange reffing - i don't know how they do it

Spurs gave up 35 in the 3rd, clearly they suck defensivly :shakehead

Spurs gave up 35 in the 3rd, clearly they suck defensivly :shakehead
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. no more of this! As a neutral on-looker, this petty dispute has taken over this thread.

ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. no more of this! As a neutral on-looker, this petty dispute has taken over this thread.
the original comment regarding the Suns was just so stupid it deserved a response like this.

Spurs gave up 35 in the 3rd, clearly they suck defensivly :shakehead

Psst.....3rd quarter isnt crunch time. And the Spurs are clearly regarded as one of the best defensive teams in the league. Good try though.

Psst.....3rd quarter isnt crunch time.

Yeah, baskets in the third only count for half.

Psst.....3rd quarter isnt crunch time. And the Spurs are clearly regarded as one of the best defensive teams in the league. Good try though.
First off, if the Spurs weren't thrown around like ragdolls in the 3rd they could have won, and secondly, the post I am responding to was with regards to the FIRST quarter, which by your standards would mean even less than the 3rd.

Suns gave up 38 points in the 1st quarter.

Someone explain to me again how they are a good defensive team...
this is the post, I have a lot of respect for Lou, so I have a really tough time figuring out why he decided to post something so stupid, because he clearly knows better.

this is the post, I have a lot of respect for Lou, so I have a really tough time figuring out why he decided to post something so stupid, because he clearly knows better.
Stupid?? All I hear from you is how the fact that the Suns are not a bad defensive team and in the biggest game of the year for them what do they do in the very 1st quarter? They sit back and watch the Spurs perform essentially a layup drill.

And I didn't call Phoenix a bad defensive team just because they gave up 38 points in the 1st quarter but because they have given up 108 points a game in these playoffs so far and only once have they held a opponent to less than 100 points in a playoff game. To me that speaks volumes of the defensive mentality of the Suns.

As far as for the Spurs giving up 35 in the 3rd, thus far in these playoffs they have only let up 94 a game, so I think I'll let them slide on one quarter.


But the thing is that the Suns are not that far of to being a decent defensive team and one of the things they do in the off-season is get a big defensive center and move Stoudemire (who made just a great block last night in crunch time) to his natural position of power forward and move Richardson to the bench and come of it as a sixth man. Until then they just remind of the Denver Nuggets of the '80's, lots and lots of "O", but not alot of "W's" come playoff time.

But I don't think I'm being "stupid" FOTS, just very realistic on what I see and what also the stats say about the Suns defensive play.

Phoenix's D isn't THAT bad. In games 1 and 2 they were relying on Nash to bring the ball up the court every time (and SA was hounding him), score alot, play the entire game, and guard Parker. The result was a complete defensive breakdown in the 4th quarter of both games.

With JJ in the lineup, the Phoenix D is able to do a MUCH better job. Unfortunately, their Defensive REBOUNDING is doing them in. SA had almost 20 more shot attempts than Phoenix last night, which is absurd. If Phoenix could even just fix their defensive rebounding, the rest of their D is good enough. And I don't think they need a true C, they just need Stoudamare and MArion to box out correctly.

Amare Stoudemire is a frickin' beast.

Looks like San Antonio is through, since Minny is long gone, I really hope they can pull out a championship. They really locked down Marion this series, that was the difference IMO, just great defense by a great defensive team, I can't fault Amare though, he played brilliantly.

The question is now, who do they want to face? Its a really tough call I think, the Pistons would be an interesting matchup in that they are very similar teams, whereas the heat are more like the old Lakers teams.

I think they want the Pistons, Parker/Ginobilli/Bowen is just a touch below Billups/Hamilton/Prince, whereas TD/Nazzy is a better combo than the Wallaces down low IMO, just because of TD, I don't know that the Wallace's can stop him fully, slow him, but not stop him. Off the bench I have to pick the Spurs though.

I don't think the Heat would match up well for them, Bowen/Ginobilli just wouldn't gaurd Wade that well IMO, whereas TD/Nazzy would have there hands full with Shaq, they might be able to outlast the Heat though.

Well the turning point in this game was clearly the missed goaltend on Duncan. That would have made it 2, instead it went the other way and became 6. That doesn't matter though, The Suns did it to themselves, allowing a poor road team to beat them 3 times at home, where they dominated all year is inexcusable. San Antonio may have stolen the game, but they sure as hell earned the series. One thing is for certain though. Stoudemire has officially arrived. He made the Spurs defence look non-existant in the 4th, and I think it is time for the nba to say hello to its newest dominating superstar.

And the Suns season comes to an end, giving up layups in a close game with less than 1 minute remaining in the 4th quarter. Still think they aren't a terrible defensive team? Kind of funny that the Mavs best season ended in the WCF to the Spurs...and now the same thing happens to the Suns....so much for the best starting 5 in NBA history.

And the Suns season comes to an end, giving up layups in a close game with less than 1 minute remaining in the 4th quarter. Still think they aren't a terrible defensive team? Kind of funny that the Mavs best season ended in the WCF to the Spurs...and now the same thing happens to the Suns....so much for the best starting 5 in NBA history.
Do you really want to talk about giving up easy baskets in close in crunch time today? In case you didn't notice, the Suns took very few shots that weren't dunks or layups all quarter.

Do you really want to talk about giving up easy baskets in close in crunch time today? In case you didn't notice, the Suns took very few shots that weren't dunks or layups all quarter.

Here's the difference...the Suns HAD to make some stops to win the game, and they didnt even come close. It was pathetic.....and I dont remember the Spurs giving up a wide open, UNCONTESTED layup with 50 seconds remaining.

Amare Stoudemire is a frickin' beast.
stoudemire is the man...and only 20 y.o. wow! so thats what you look like when you win the genetic lottery...

as for nash, well he's got the entire offseason to get rid of those acne on his face...LOL! j/k. :D

congrats Spurzzz.

Here's the difference...the Suns HAD to make some stops to win the game, and they didnt even come close. It was pathetic.....and I dont remember the Spurs giving up a wide open, UNCONTESTED layup with 50 seconds remaining.
Suns allowed maybe one, the Suns owned the quarter until they were forced to send the spurs to the line.

A big reason the Suns lost is Marion. He got shutdown by the Spurs D, averaging below 8 points a game in the series. I thought he would have a bigger impact in this series. Good season by the Suns going from out of the playoffs to best record in the league. They should contend next year, they just need to add depth to the bench with some guys that can play D. And sadly, the greatest starting 5 in the history of the game falls short. (Even if it wasn't serious, youre still going to get crap for it FOTS ;) )

Suns allowed maybe one, the Suns owned the quarter until they were forced to send the spurs to the line.

Fact is, like the entire playoffs, they could NOT get a stop when they absolutely had to.

Fact is, like the entire playoffs, they could NOT get a stop when they absolutely had to.
probably because the only time they needed a stop was in 2 games this series. They cakewalked the first two rounds remember.

probably because the only time they needed a stop was in 2 games this series. They cakewalked the first two rounds remember.

I wouldnt call the 2nd round a cakewalk. Still doesnt change the fact that they cannot stop anyone. They simply cant.

probably because the only time they needed a stop was in 2 games this series. They cakewalked the first two rounds remember.


Going to OT of Game 6 vs. Dallas isn't a cake walk. And the only reason the Suns won Game 6 was because Steve Nash decided they were going to.

probably because the only time they needed a stop was in 2 games this series. They cakewalked the first two rounds remember.

What's your idea of a cakewalk? Nearly going to game 7 against Dallas? If so, you got some pretty messed up cakewalks there.

What's your idea of a cakewalk? Nearly going to game 7 against Dallas? If so, you got some pretty messed up cakewalks there.
Suns won a series with 5 players, and there wasn't really ever too much question as too who it would be either, as the Suns never trailed in the series, and won desively quite often. The 2 Mavs wins, especially the first one, were flukes.