Native hockey.

BCCHL inactive
04-11-2005, 01:12 AM
Before I start, this is in no way a racially prejudiced post.

This weekend, I officiated seven games in the local annual youth native hockey tournament. Four games went without problems. There were a few scraps, but that's hockey in general.

One of the Midget teams was from Horse Lake. That's the same town where Theo Fleury is playing Senior hockey. In fact, Glen Watson (Senior team coach) was running the bench for the Midget team here this weekend. I was on the ice for their game against a small community from Northwestern BC. This Horse Lake team was 2 classes above the competition. The game ended 16-0, but all the other team wanted to do was fight and hurt the Horse Lake players. I understand being frustrated with getting beaten so badly, but why is there the need to try to hurt players who are showing class by refusing to respond to the cheap crap being pulled against them?

Today, my last two games were nothing less than gong shows. In the midget game, we had three Match Penalties. I've never seen three Matches in one game ever. One was a blatant headbutt when one player refused to fight (he also recieved a Gross Misconduct for his actions following), the next two were literally ripping the face mask off the helmet. The first was during a fight, but it was intentional, and the second facemask saw a player unwilling to fight have his cage ripped from his helmet and his glasses flung across the ice. That one also resulted in my hand getting cut and having blood get all over my brand new jersey.

My last game was the Bantam final. It was a decent contest, although the final was 6-1. However, one player was so bad that he alone made this game a gong show....

He started with my partner giving him an Unsportsmanlike minor for faking a baseball swing at a player's head. Next, he delivered a clean hit on the other team's female player (she's better than most of the guys), but proceeded to call her a b****. I gave him a minor for Unsportsmanlike, but looking back, I should have given a 10, but I was so tired (7 native games plus 4 high school games this weekend) I wasn't thinking as deep as I normally do. A few minutes later, I gave him a Roughing penalty, but I only saw the end of what happened. I thought he tackled his opponent, but it turns out he cross-checked him in the back of the head and landed on top of him. My partner didn't see it either. I was really upset about that one. All I could do was tell the other team I knew something worse happened and apologize that neither of us saw it....

With about five minutes left, he gave the goaltender a slight tap with his stick, then did it to the defenceman. I would never call it in any other game, but this player had to go. As soon as I gave him the penalty, he dropped his gloves, took his helmet off and was going to go after the defenceman, who skated right to his bench (SMART KID). I was right there, so I got in front of him right away. He kept coming towards me, so I had to grab him. He told me to get my f***ing hands off him, and then tried to throw me around. I ended up forgetting about the slashing I was calling because it wasn't needed. His team was already short with the Match and I would have felt like an ass slapping an extra two onto the rest of his team (they were all being good anyway). I gave this kid 10, Gross Misconduct (removing helmet to fight) and a Match (physical abuse of official).

I was asked to scorekeep the Midget final, so I did. Horse Lake was obviously in the final, and were up 6-0 with about 15 minutes left. All the last period was, was the other team trying to pick fights and injure the better and smarter Horse Lake players. Glen Watson was for the most part, quiet, as the referees were making all the calls that were earned. The other team's bench spent their time threatening the Horse Lake players and making some very obscene comments to the officials. Near the end, Watson was getting close to turning his players loose (at least in my opinion) after spending the entire tournament refusing to let his players retaliate. The other team ended up packing up and leaving the game with 15 minutes left. The game ended with a player trying to pick a fight with a Horse Lake player, and proceeding to punch the referee when he wouldn't let him beat the piss out of a player unwilling to fight.

The reason the title of this thread is "Native hockey", is because stuff like this never happens in any other minor hockey...at least not with this frequency. There are isolated such incidents in other minor hockey, but this is the same story year after year after year at the annual native tournament. Honestly, the only reason I worked games again this year was for the money.

Again, I mean no offence to any native people who might post on these boards. In fact, some of you might be able to help, and answer my question.... Why is this a consistant happening in native hockey?


PS: I would like to congratulate the Horse Lake Thunder. They showed nothing but class during the entire tournament by refusing to get goaded into the cheap hockey the other teams tried to get them into. Glen Watson (why, oh why did OCN fire him?) did a magnificent job controlling his players. The rest of his staff, and the players, were very nice people to talk with off the ice as well. To them, I say thank you for keeping my weekend from being one of total disgust. They showed some unbelievable skill and speed, as well as class on and off the ice. :clap:

Douggy
04-11-2005, 10:40 AM
I think you could've written this thread without specifying that it was Native hockey. There's no real reason to do it. :teach:

Anyways, the real question is: How long did it take you to write-up all the stuff on the game sheet? :p:

Habsfan 32
04-11-2005, 12:05 PM
I don't want to offend native people here but almost all the native guys I played with were like that. Lots of suspensions and misconducts. I don't know why it happens but it pretty frequent. Again I don't want to offend anybody.

BCCHL inactive
04-11-2005, 03:18 PM
I think you could've written this thread without specifying that it was Native hockey. There's no real reason to do it. :teach:

Why not? That's what it was. If I wrote that it was simply minor hockey, that would be painting it with an image that it doesn't deserve.


Anyways, the real question is: How long did it take you to write-up all the stuff on the game sheet? :p:

Given the tournament was not sanctioned, all I had to do was give a verbal report to a tournament organizer. I had 5 minutes from the buzzer in the game with 3 Matches to get to the rink next door for puckdrop for my last game of the year.

usmhuskies
04-11-2005, 05:06 PM
Sometimes players lose it on the ice...I have before...

Bruins4Ever
04-11-2005, 06:15 PM
We live right near the 6 Nations Native Reserve, one of the biggest in Canada. The hockey there is so brutally cheap. You play there, and you get hacked, slashed, hit from behind, and the refs let it go. The games are always rough, and I hate playing them. There seems to be no order, and I don't know why.

Canadian Chris
04-11-2005, 07:28 PM
Sometimes players lose it on the ice...I have before...
Yes, sometimes hockey players just lose it. It happens. But if you had seen any of this stuff here this weekend, it was disgusting. I popped my head in the rink a couple times out of curiousity as I forgot their was a native tourny going on.

The worst part of it all, it's not just this one instance. There's a "all native", and I put it in quotes because it's supposed to be all native, but isn't, anyways, there's an "all native" team in my league, and they are BY FAR the cheapest, and roughest team. You have to understand that this is just rec hockey, and it's no hitting. It's absolutely brutal too. It amazes me that some of these players have the skill they do, but as soon as they start to get beat in the game, they retaliate by swing sticks and taking runs at players.

Le Golie
04-11-2005, 08:06 PM
This thread is the most hyporcritical piece of work I have ever seen. Not that it is a bad or improper topic, but seeing where it is coming from is amazing.

cite:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=36504&highlight=racism

Douggy
04-11-2005, 08:59 PM
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=36504&highlight=racism
Touche.

Anyways, I have either reffed or played hockey for 15 years now, and I have never seen a native kid get thrown out, or deserve to be thrown out.

BCCHL inactive
04-11-2005, 09:58 PM
This thread is the most hyporcritical piece of work I have ever seen. Not that it is a bad or improper topic, but seeing where it is coming from is amazing.

cite:
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=36504&highlight=racism

Hypocritical? Not quite, but nice try.

That thread was singling out players of a different race on a national team. This thread is about a brand of hockey that is always as described.

I'm not complaining because they're native, I'm complaining because of the way they play hockey.



Anyways, I have either reffed or played hockey for 15 years now, and I have never seen a native kid get thrown out, or deserve to be thrown out.

Now this, I simply do not believe.

You've payed attention to that over 15 years? Have you ever officiated an all-native tournament?

Le Golie
04-11-2005, 10:25 PM
Hypocritical? Not quite, but nice try.

This is a direct quote from you in that thread:

'the whole point of getting rid of racism is not recognizing race at all...but recognizing these people as human beings.'

Then you go on a rant about how 'Native' hockey is different than any other kind of hockey.

You know what? I've seen it and played in it all my life. What you are saying is true. But the fact that you declare 'Native' hockey different in any way from other hockey shows that you 'recognize race' as you put it - which you call unnacceptable in another breath.

The fact that you take a defensive stand instead of just accept that you come off looking foolish blows my mind. I honestly don't remember seeing a more clear and obvious display of hipocracy.

I'm done with this, your own words are all the evidence needed.

BCCHL inactive
04-11-2005, 11:02 PM
This is a direct quote from you in that thread:

'the whole point of getting rid of racism is not recognizing race at all...but recognizing these people as human beings.'

Then you go on a rant about how 'Native' hockey is different than any other kind of hockey.

You know what? I've seen it and played in it all my life. What you are saying is true. But the fact that you declare 'Native' hockey different in any way from other hockey shows that you 'recognize race' as you put it - which you call unnacceptable in another breath.

The fact that you take a defensive stand instead of just accept that you come off looking foolish blows my mind. I honestly don't remember seeing a more clear and obvious display of hipocracy.

I'm done with this, your own words are all the evidence needed.

I'll try to explain in terms you can understand...

In that other thread, it was about singling out african american players on a predominant caucasian national team. My comments were directed at any potential prejudice involved. THAT is what I called unacceptable.

This is an entirely different issue. This is not about preventing racial prejudice. The two threads are entirely different issues.

May I also ask what kind of agenda you have against me that made you dig up a 5 month-old thread to respond in this thread?

Le Golie
04-11-2005, 11:19 PM
May I also ask what kind of agenda you have against me that made you dig up a 5 month-old thread to respond in this thread?

Sure, read my post in that old thread. I found your reaction in that thread so unbelievable that I will always remember you for it. I also believe you were a Mod at the time and couldn't believe a Mod would be so childish in a thread. I also remember you always talking about your reffing and questioning how you expect to be successful after seeing the level of judgement you show here.

Then I see this thread and can't believe you have the audacity to post it.

No agenda, just don't think you can make people feel like racists for commending black players for their acheivements and then turn around and post negatively about a brand of hockey which you define by race with and not get called on it.

If I'm ever this ridiculously hipocritical please call me on it.

BCCHL inactive
04-11-2005, 11:24 PM
No agenda, just don't think you can make people feel like racists for commending black players for their acheivements and then turn around and post negatively about a brand of hockey which you define by race with and not get called on it.


Defining this tournament as a native tournament is not my definition. It is the fact that this was an all-native hockey tournament...one which requires a status card in order for players to be eligible.

Again...that other thread was about racial prejudice. This thread has nothing to do with that. Did you not see my congratulations to Horse Lake?

Tell me...How else should I have described this hockey tournament, where the play and on-ice conduct is the same every year?

Le Golie
04-11-2005, 11:43 PM
Defining this tournament as a native tournament is not my definition. It is the fact that this was an all-native hockey tournament...one which requires a status card in order for players to be eligible.

Again...that other thread was about racial prejudice. This thread has nothing to do with that. Did you not see my congratulations to Horse Lake?

Tell me...How else should I have described this hockey tournament, where the play and on-ice conduct is the same every year?

Here's something else for you to chew on. How can you say things like 'I'll try to explain in terms you can understand...' when you miss the boat as often as you do? If I were you I'd be a whole lot more humble and a whole lot less condescending.

Now, go back and read your thread. It says 'Native hockey'. Not 'Native tournament'. You are really fishing for defence if the best you can do is pretend you were talking about the specific tournament and not the brand of hockey you described as being different from all others. Needing a treaty card to play in a tournament is not what this is about at all, but thanks for putting the bold on the word FACT for me.

Yes, I saw you congratulate the Horse Lake team. As soon as I read it I thought to myself, 'you know what - there is no doubt he is sincere about it but it sticks out like a sore thumb the post because he's just planting it there to use to support his views when he gets called out.'

Now once again I will ask you to go back and read my posts here. I said right from the start that this isn't a bad or improper topic. It's fine to talk about and it is true that hockey played on most reserves is a whole lot more dirty than the average every day club team. But for you to post it, after your rants how we in society should be ashamed for even recognizing that people are different races - is hipocritical.

Not calling you a racist, just a hipocrit.

gr8haluschak
04-12-2005, 12:17 AM
Here's something else for you to chew on. How can you say things like 'I'll try to explain in terms you can understand...' when you miss the boat as often as you do? If I were you I'd be a whole lot more humble and a whole lot less condescending.

Now, go back and read your thread. It says 'Native hockey'. Not 'Native tournament'. You are really fishing for defence if the best you can do is pretend you were talking about the specific tournament and not the brand of hockey you described as being different from all others. Needing a treaty card to play in a tournament is not what this is about at all, but thanks for putting the bold on the word FACT for me.

Yes, I saw you congratulate the Horse Lake team. As soon as I read it I thought to myself, 'you know what - there is no doubt he is sincere about it but it sticks out like a sore thumb the post because he's just planting it there to use to support his views when he gets called out.'

Now once again I will ask you to go back and read my posts here. I said right from the start that this isn't a bad or improper topic. It's fine to talk about and it is true that hockey played on most reserves is a whole lot more dirty than the average every day club team. But for you to post it, after your rants how we in society should be ashamed for even recognizing that people are different races - is hipocritical.

Not calling you a racist, just a hipocrit.

How is he being a hypocrit ? he never made any disparaging remarks he stated fact that this was a native tourney and these actions occured - that simple.

BCCHL inactive
04-12-2005, 12:28 AM
But for you to post it, after your rants how we in society should be ashamed for even recognizing that people are different races - is hipocritical.


I said nothing about how society should be ashamed, etc, etc. Not one word. I stated that the point of getting rid of racism is to not differentiate people by their race.

You're still failing to see the difference between discussing racial issues involving hockey where all players, regardless of race, are eligible, and hockey where you must prove your status as a native in order to play. You can't take my opinion for one and call me a hypicrit based on the other.

BCCHL inactive
04-12-2005, 12:32 AM
How is he being a hypocrit ? he never made any disparaging remarks he stated fact that this was a native tourney and these actions occured - that simple.

It's not really that simple. I wouldn't be in such a sour mood over the annual native tournament if it wasn't the same story every year with dirty play, gross conduct on and off-ice, various foreign objects thrown at the officials, and the likelihood that most officials will deal with at least one incident of a player physically abusing him...not to mention the possibility of a lynching by the fans. And if we want to discuss racism in this thread, I've heard the term "white trash" uttered towards myself, as have many other officials on countless occasions.

I appreciate the defence, but with all due respect, I don't need it. :)

Le Golie
04-12-2005, 12:35 AM
How is he being a hypocrit ? he never made any disparaging remarks he stated fact that this was a native tourney and these actions occured - that simple.

In one thread he says the following :

"the whole point of getting rid of racism is not recognizing race at all...but recognizing these people as human beings. As far as I see it, anytime race is payed attention to, be it "good intentions" or not, it proves that racism still exists."

The next thread he calls native hockey dirty. If 'native' hockey is dirty, then obviously Van has recognized the 'native race' and identifies they hockey played by native people as being different from hockey played by other races. That type of identification is exaclty what he denounced in the first thread.

gr8haluschak
04-12-2005, 01:27 AM
In one thread he says the following :

"the whole point of getting rid of racism is not recognizing race at all...but recognizing these people as human beings. As far as I see it, anytime race is payed attention to, be it "good intentions" or not, it proves that racism still exists."

The next thread he calls native hockey dirty. If 'native' hockey is dirty, then obviously Van has recognized the 'native race' and identifies they hockey played by native people as being different from hockey played by other races. That type of identification is exaclty what he denounced in the first thread.

OK shut up already because you have wasted enough space on such a useless argument. Obviously you have some grudge against this guy to waste this much time and effort to find one comment he made in one of how many posts and devote this much time to denouncing his charecter.

Here is a definition of racism:

"The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race"

Did he say ANYTHING about native hockey players being not superior - no he stated the fact that they were playing chippy, did he show and prejudice based on race or discrimination - no he simply describe the native hockey tourney as what it is - A NATIVE HOCKEY TOURNAMENT !

Oh my god he used the term native to describe a native hockey tournament, jeez I must be prejudice if I call the Spengler cup a european tournament or the frozen four an american tourney.

Le Golie
04-12-2005, 01:54 AM
OK shut up already because you have wasted enough space on such a useless argument. Obviously you have some grudge against this guy to waste this much time and effort to find one comment he made in one of how many posts and devote this much time to denouncing his charecter.

Here is a definition of racism:

"The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
Discrimination or prejudice based on race"

Did he say ANYTHING about native hockey players being not superior - no he stated the fact that they were playing chippy, did he show and prejudice based on race or discrimination - no he simply describe the native hockey tourney as what it is - A NATIVE HOCKEY TOURNAMENT !

Oh my god he used the term native to describe a native hockey tournament, jeez I must be prejudice if I call the Spengler cup a european tournament or the frozen four an american tourney.

I'm sorry but I don't know where to start. Why are you mad about calling it a native tournament? I have no problem at all calling it a native tournament at all.

I also never said Van was a racist. And thanks for the dictionary definition, but it has no relevance since I'm not calling anyone a racist. What are you mad about? I don't understand where you are coming from at all.

Van basically said 'Anyone acknowledging a race is proving that racism exists' And then he starts up a thread about 'native' style hockey. So by his own standards maybe he is calling himself a racist - but I'm not calling him that at all.

BCCHL inactive
04-12-2005, 01:59 AM
Van basically said 'Anyone acknowledging a race is proving that racism exists' And then he starts up a thread about 'native' style hockey. So by his own standards maybe he is calling himself a racist - but I'm not calling him that at all.

So you're basing all this on a "maybe" situation?

You're right. I said recognizing race proves that racism exists. I never said that those who recognize race are in fact racist people.

Now can you please stop wasting time with these useless posts?

Le Golie
04-12-2005, 03:15 AM
So you're basing all this on a "maybe" situation?

You're right. I said recognizing race proves that racism exists. I never said that those who recognize race are in fact racist people.

Now can you please stop wasting time with these useless posts?

Actually, it has nothing to do with a 'maybe' situation. Like I've said several times I'm not calling you a racist. By using the word 'maybe' I was basically wondering out loud what your definition of racism includes.

It's too bad this turned into a sour situation, I took issue with this thread because of comments you have made in the past - that's all it is and I agree it should end here. Feel free to PM me if you feel there is more to discuss.

nic29+
04-12-2005, 10:13 AM
I hope it ends here or I'll have to close the thread.