Alliance and Tories edge toward unity

VO #23
09-24-2003, 07:48 AM
http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030924.wuallim0924/BNStory/National/

Will they be able to topple the Liberals in the forseeable future if the merger does in fact go through?

Burke's Evil Spirit
09-24-2003, 08:13 AM
No - they'll find some way to screw up.

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2003, 10:19 AM
Usually when the Liberals take hold they last more than 10 years...

loveshack2
09-24-2003, 10:39 AM
If they merge it would certainly be a step in the right direction. *Alot* of votes have been split in recent years between the Reform Party and the Conservatives. The Liberals have been in power for the last several years largely by default.

If a united, right-wing party were to emerge with a strong leader I certainly wouldnt bet against them forming the next government.

MVP
09-24-2003, 10:49 AM
i think alot of Canadian are satisfy with the Liberals, the only way in which the voters would change their minds would be by some unnecessary change to the current policy which Paul Martin might be wanting to do. i personally would pay close attention to Bill Martin's vision on the issue of health care and education.

canucksfan
09-24-2003, 10:52 AM
I hope they do merge. It will be better for Canada because then it's not a one party system.

loveshack2
09-24-2003, 11:00 AM
i think alot of Canadian are satisfy with the Liberals, the only way in which the voters would change their minds would be by some unnecessary change to the current policy which Bill Martin might be wanting to do. i personally would pay close attention to Bill Martin's vision on the issue of health care and education.



Um, who's Bill Martin? ;)

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2003, 11:03 AM
If they merge it would certainly be a step in the right direction. *Alot* of votes have been split in recent years between the Reform Party and the Conservatives. The Liberals have been in power for the last several years largely by default.

If a united, right-wing party were to emerge with a strong leader I certainly wouldnt bet against them forming the next government.


Two problems.

1) Alot of Conservative vots would not go to the Alliance. Especially in Quebec.

2) And where would they get this strong leadership from?

Tuomo Ruutu's Ego
09-24-2003, 11:19 AM
The Alliance doesn't need to merge with any party, they just need to get a new damned leader. Stephen Harper is horrible. It's either his way or the highway. Geesh, he should give him members of parliament the opportunity to vote and use their own brains for a change to decide which way they vote. The individual members represent their ridings, Stephen Harper doesn't represent those ridings.

It makes me glad that I am a supporter of the NDP and not the Canadian Alliance.

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2003, 11:31 AM
The Alliance doesn't need to merge with any party, they just need to get a new damned leader. Stephen Harper is horrible. It's either his way or the highway. Geesh, he should give him members of parliament the opportunity to vote and use their own brains for a change to decide which way they vote. The individual members represent their ridings, Stephen Harper doesn't represent those ridings.

It makes me glad that I am a supporter of the NDP and not the Canadian Alliance.

The only new leader that could shake the Alliance's image as an Alberta protest party and actually give it a chance would be a french canadien leader. Somehow I doubt that'll happen...

MVP
09-24-2003, 11:34 AM
Um, who's Bill Martin? ;)


My bad Paul

habfan4
09-24-2003, 11:44 AM
An Canadian Alliance and PC merger seems a little like a same sex marriage.

I wish them all the luck in the world.

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2003, 11:58 AM
You know who could lead them, probably the only person who could beat Martin. It ain't gonna happen but, Jean Charest.

habfan4
09-24-2003, 12:26 PM
You know who could lead them, probably the only person who could beat Martin. It ain't gonna happen but, Jean Charest.

While Charest could muster support on the East coast and Quebec and would certainly be more palatable to Ontario voters than Harper, he is considered too much of a "Red" tory (even in his federal PC days) out West to lead a merged CA/PC party.

What about Mike Harris? He's marketable out west, and could possibly sway Ontario voters to the right.

Jellybean
09-24-2003, 12:30 PM
Martin will still likely win the next election, but uniting the right might prevent a majority. IMO having one strong right wing alternative to the Liberals is a giant step in the right direction for this country. It has my unqualified support.

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2003, 12:36 PM
While Charest could muster support on the East coast and Quebec and would certainly be more palatable to Ontario voters than Harper, he is considered too much of a "Red" tory (even in his federal PC days) out West to lead a merged CA/PC party.

What about Mike Harris? He's marketable out west, and could possibly sway Ontario voters to the right.


Harris would still struggle mightily in Quebec and without at least some support from Quebec, winning is a longshot. Plus, how he'd fair in Ontario no is quite up in the air.

As for Charest, the west is a given for the party, Western voters won't like him, but he'll still get their votes...

Plus, in all likelihood, a hardline conservative is not going to do much, they need moderate to red toreis...

habfan4
09-24-2003, 12:59 PM
Harris would still struggle mightily in Quebec and without at least some support from Quebec, winning is a longshot. Plus, how he'd fair in Ontario no is quite up in the air.

As for Charest, the west is a given for the party, Western voters won't like him, but he'll still get their votes...

Plus, in all likelihood, a hardline conservative is not going to do much, they need moderate to red toreis...

I'm assuming that a newly created "merged" party would have to hold a leadership race. If that was the case, could Charest win such a race? (given the "grassroots" in Alberta etc) It's Debatable? IMO supporting a near centre right leader would be political suicide for many CA MPs.

Support in Quebec is dandy but if you don't win in Ontario during a federal election, you're finished. It's a question of who is easier to sway? The electorate in Ontario or in La Belle Province. IMO a conservative party has a better shot at getting support in Ontario (no matter who leads said party).

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2003, 01:43 PM
I'm assuming that a newly created "merged" party would have to hold a leadership race. If that was the case, could Charest win such a race? (given the "grassroots" in Alberta etc) It's Debatable? IMO supporting a near centre right leader would be political suicide for many CA MPs.

Support in Quebec is dandy but if you don't win in Ontario during a federal election, you're finished. It's a question of who is easier to sway? The electorate in Ontario or in La Belle Province. IMO a conservative party has a better shot at getting support in Ontario (no matter who leads said party).

And that grassroots Alberta leadership push will forever prevent the party from the big time.

The flip side of that is that Ontario is huge, you can get 50 seats and still have another party get more Ontario seats than you. They won't get a majority government without at least some support in Quebec.

J-D
09-24-2003, 01:48 PM
You know who could lead them, probably the only person who could beat Martin. It ain't gonna happen but, Jean Charest.

I still can't believe he's Quebec's PM, now you will lead me to believe he could become the Canadian PM??? Hell is nigh.

Kiraly
09-29-2003, 07:04 PM
Sounds like the proposed merger is all but dead.

Text of the Canadian Alliance merger proposal to the Progressive Conservatives, dated Aug. 30:

Outline of a proposal to create a new "Conservative Party"

1. The new party shall be known as the "Conservative Party", but could have a longer, "inclusive," legal name, e.g. the "Progressive Conservative and Reform Party of Canada."

2. The Conservative Party will assume all the rights, assets and liabilities of the Canadian Reform - Conservative Alliance (CA) and the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada (PC).

3. The CA and PC leaders are responsible for achieving support of their parties for the goals and legal establishment of the Conservative Party by October 10, 2003, through whatever mechanism is necessary in each case.

4. The CA and PC parties shall immediately each name 11 members to an interim governing body, consisting of equal representation from each province.

5. The interim governing body will be responsible for:

a. Ensuring filings with Elections Canada (by November 10, 2003);

b. Drafting a constitution (by December 31, 2003);

c. Establishing electoral district associations; and,

d. Overseeing candidate nominations.

6. The Conservative Party will immediately establish a trust capable of raising money and retiring the debt of the PC Party. This entity will be the predecessor of the Conservative Fund.

7. The CA and PC caucuses of both houses will immediately establish the Conservative Party parliamentary caucus.

8. The Conservative Party parliamentary caucus will be responsible for:

a. Electing an interim leader by secret ballot (immediately); and,

b. Drafting a statement of principles and policies (by December 31, 2003).

9. The interim leader will serve as leader of the Opposition in the House of Commons and will be responsible for the Conservative Party's election preparations pending election of a permanent leader. The interim leader may not be a candidate in the Leadership race.

10. The CA and PC parties will each name two individuals to a leadership election organizing committee.

11. The leadership vote shall be conducted by mail-in ballot on the basis of one member, one vote. The membership cut-off shall be November 17, 2003. The first ballot shall be completed by December 17, 2003. Any run-off ballot shall be completed by January 7, 2004.

12. The founding convention of the Conservative Party shall be held in Ottawa on February 19-21, 2004. It shall consist of 10 delegates from each electoral district association, plus members of the interim governing body, Conservative Party Trust, Conservative Party parliamentary caucus, leadership election organizing committee, CA National Council and PC Management Committee.

13. The founding convention shall be responsible for the amendment and adoption of a constitution and a statement of principles and policies.

14. Where possible, the selection of CA and PC candidates will be grandfathered to the Conservative Party, and further CA and PC nomination meetings shall immediately cease.

Kiraly
10-15-2003, 08:24 AM
Well...

....maybe not so dead:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/15/unite_right031015

OTTAWA - A deal to unite the country's two federal right-wing parties could be announced on Wednesday afternoon.

The Progressive Conservative caucus held a conference call on Wednesday morning and were told a deal was in the works.

Tory Leader Peter MacKay and Stephen Harper, leader of the Canadian Alliance, discussed the deal on Tuesday and reportedly made great strides toward reaching a deal.

On Wednesday, Harper cancelled a fundraiser scheduled in Calgary to fly back to Ottawa.

Kiraly
10-15-2003, 08:30 AM
Martin will still likely win the next election, but uniting the right might prevent a majority. IMO having one strong right wing alternative to the Liberals is a giant step in the right direction for this country. It has my unqualified support.

If the rumours that a merger is imminent, this new party will likely take over the media spotlight for the next few months....

...probably right up until an election is announced as a Conservative Party Convention would likely take place in February/March.

Good news for conservatives, not so good for Martin.

Rick Middleton
10-15-2003, 09:14 AM
When the merger news was hot back in August they had a good segment on it on the National, and one of the pundits made a good point.

They stated that were a merger to take place, the new "Conservative" party would only "gain" 1.2 to 1.3 votes instead of the 2 votes that you think that they would (1 vote from PC voters, 1 vote from Alliance voters). This was derived from the fact that most PC voters would vote for the Liberals instead of the new Conservative party given that they distrust the Alliance people so much.

Really, I think the only way the new Conservative party would topple the Liberals would be to have Mike Harris at the helm and get enough Ontario seats away from the Liberals. Quite frankly, I'd have to think long and hard about my vote, I might support a Mike Harris Conservative party more than a Paul Martin Liberal party.

Kiraly
10-15-2003, 09:27 AM
Rick...

...I have seen recent polls that suggest nearly 50% would consider voting for a unified conservative party.

However, I do not put too much stock into polls. In 1993, the conservatives were leading in polls not long before the election that eventually reduced them to two seats.

A lot can happen in an election campaign.

As for Mike Harris, I'm not sure if the lingering resentment towards him and the provincial progressive conservatives has died down enough for him to do any damage to the liberal political machine in Ontario.

Also, I believe that his French is quite poor. Bernard Lord or Stephen Harper would be much better choices, in my humble opinion.

mrhockey123
10-15-2003, 09:28 AM
im definately a small 'c' conservative and i voted for the Aliance party in the last election.

HOWEVER, i really was not pleased with McKay for signing his "deal" with one of the rivals to assure him the leadership.

Now on top of that shady deal, he's welching on the deal! McKay promised NOT to merge wit hthe Alliance.

So this is a great place to start a party: a shady character who stabs everyone else in the back, then goes back on his own bloody word...jee you can count on my vote :rolleyes:

Rick Middleton
10-15-2003, 09:32 AM
Rick...

...I have seen recent polls that suggest nearly 50% would consider voting for a unified conservative party.

However, I do not put too much stock into polls. In 1993, the conservatives were leading in polls not long before the election that eventually reduced them to two seats.

A lot can happen in an election campaign.

As for Mike Harris, I'm not sure if the lingering resentment towards him and the provincial progressive conservatives has died down enough for him to do any damage to the liberal political machine in Ontario.

Also, I believe that his French is quite poor. Bernard Lord or Stephen Harper would be much better choices, in my humble opinion.

OK, say we meet in the middle. You're still only looking at 1.4 votes instead of the 2 that some people have bandied about. That still won't get you anywhere close to the numbers you'd need to topple the Liberals.

Definitely not Stephen Harper from my POV. No way I'd vote for him. McKay seems like a better choice than Harper, and that's saying a lot.

There isn't really a groundswell of public opinion against the conservatives in Ontario. Ernie Eves just blundered his way to being ousted.

Rick Middleton
10-15-2003, 09:34 AM
a shady character who stabs everyone else in the back, then goes back on his own bloody word

Doesn't that just about characterize most politicians?

Kiraly
10-15-2003, 09:36 AM
Mr. H....

...Any deal would have to go back to the PC party membership for approval. The membership would have the final say.

As for Mackay, I don't believe he would be a factor in any united party other than sitting as an MP.

The whole Orchard deal puts him in a negative light, but I really don't think it is him in real control. I would say there are other members of the party pulling the strings here.

Bud The Spud*
10-15-2003, 09:43 AM
You know who could lead them, probably the only person who could beat Martin. It ain't gonna happen but, Jean Charest.

It won't happen, but I think he would be a good PM.

HABitual
10-15-2003, 10:04 AM
Any form of the CA, PC or a merged party will have a LOT of trouble penetrating Ontario, given our voting for the Liberal Party in the provincial AND federal elections. They have a stranglehold here.

mrhockey123
10-15-2003, 10:36 AM
Rick:

yeah i suppose it does, but atleast for most of these people we've got to wait for them to take office before we see how bad they are. This guy is brutal and he's not the pm- imagine what happens when the whole 'im the pm so boo to you' powertrip hits!

Kiraly:

Im just saying that if this type of guy is the leader - and thereby setting the example for his party, how bad is the party!

I think youre most likely right about other people pulling the strings on this one.

How does the system work? does the leader of hte party have any say in the matter at at all or does the 'proposal' go straight to the members of the party and they vote on it?

cause then in theory a leader could be forced to live by ideologies he doesnt believe. Ofcourse he would have the option (and responsibility) to step down as leader in that event.

But I think both the CA and PC parties konw theyre kidding themselves if they think they can win an election by themselves agaisnt the liberal jugernaut especially with the provincial Liberals winning in Quebec (yeah i know thats prov politics but it shows a drastic switch in the peoples's ideology)

Nalyd Psycho
10-15-2003, 10:56 AM
I would say there are other members of the party pulling the strings here.

I agree. MacKay is only leader because of nepotism. And he was voted in by the old members who didn't want to lose power. And so they still have the power.

The problem is it's the old members of the PC party that we are voting against.

Kiraly
10-15-2003, 01:26 PM
I for one am praying Bernard Lord is the next leader of a united right. He’s bilingual, smart, relatively young, not a highly religious person to my knowledge. Other than the fact he may not be far enough to the right for the “grass roots” he’s perfect.

You would think he would make a good candidate, but whispers are that he is not going to run.

That could change.

Kiraly
10-15-2003, 01:27 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/15/unitetheright031015

There's been a history-making breakthrough in the talks to unite-the-right. The leaders of the Progressive Conservatives and the Canadian Alliance have reached an agreement in principle to merge their parties

Jellybean
10-15-2003, 01:28 PM
Hopefully Mike Harris runs. IMO he is the best choice.

VO #23
10-15-2003, 03:15 PM
Yikes!

Let's put it this way, if either Harper or MacKay is the leader I definitely won't vote for them.

Anyone know if Doug Henning is planning on pulling off his greatest magic trick to date and bringing himself back to life to run for Natural Law one more time? If so, sign me up! :D

Nalyd Psycho
10-15-2003, 03:44 PM
You would think he would make a good candidate, but whispers are that he is not going to run.

That could change.


I think he simply plans to finish his current term as premier before going federal...

Kiraly
10-16-2003, 11:15 AM
I think he simply plans to finish his current term as premier before going federal...

Too bad...

...he may have been the perfect inaugural leader of a new conservative party.