Hockey mom wants daughter allowed in boys' change room

OilerNut*
07-11-2005, 09:35 PM
http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/soundoff/story.html?id=2aa28604-33b0-4d73-951f-1e5d56eb62f4

Basically what the story says is that the daughters mother feels as though her daughter should be allowed to be in the same dressing room as the guys.

I think its complete ********, I happen to play rec hockey and after and before the game there are guys walking around the locker room nude, showering, getting changed, etc. How can you feel comfortable doing that when there are girls in there as well?

SwisshockeyAcademy
07-11-2005, 09:46 PM
http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/soundoff/story.html?id=2aa28604-33b0-4d73-951f-1e5d56eb62f4

Basically what the story says is that the daughters mother feels as though her daughter should be allowed to be in the same dressing room as the guys.

I think its complete ********, I happen to play rec hockey and after and before the game there are guys walking around the locker room nude, showering, getting changed, etc. How can you feel comfortable doing that when there are girls in there as well?
I'm not sure what to make of this. If the dress code is followed i don't see the problem. I have been to the beach and there really is nothing left to the imagination there. Looks like it will be a ruckus.

OilerNut*
07-11-2005, 09:49 PM
I'm not sure what to make of this. If the dress code is followed i don't see the problem. I have been to the beach and there really is nothing left to the imagination there. Looks like it will be a ruckus.

This isn't the beach though, people don't get changed on the beach or have showers on the beach.

SwisshockeyAcademy
07-11-2005, 09:53 PM
This isn't the beach though, people don't get changed on the beach or have showers on the beach.
I believe the article says there will be separation for showers. Underwear and t-shirts are no big deal.

OilerNut*
07-11-2005, 09:58 PM
And what happens when one of the boys makes a sexual remark towards the girl or decide to 'show' her something.

SwisshockeyAcademy
07-11-2005, 10:01 PM
And what happens when one of the boys makes a sexual remark towards the girl or decide to 'show' her something.
I would imagine they may have pre season meetings about making it work and what will happen if you go outside the boundaries. You would need a strong personality running this team. If the management team is good you have no problems.

PACaptain
07-11-2005, 10:06 PM
The hockey locker room or any sports locker room is not a place where normal social decorum is followed. The boys would be open to a lot of liability if they let a girl into the locker room. Even if she seems okay with it, you never know how far you could push the envelope before she would claim she was harassed.

Its a very sensitive situation to be sure, but I think seperate locker rooms are the better move.

SwisshockeyAcademy
07-11-2005, 10:07 PM
The hockey locker room or any sports locker room is not a place where normal social decorum is followed. The boys would be open to a lot of liability if they let a girl into the locker room. Even if she seems okay with it, you never know how far you could push the envelope before she would claim she was harassed.

Its a very sensitive situation to be sure, but I think seperate locker rooms are the better move.
Its certainly easier, especially if seperate change rooms are not a big hassle. Some arenas are ill equiped though.

OilerNut*
07-11-2005, 10:08 PM
Its certainly easier, especially if seperate change rooms are not a big hassle. Some arenas are ill equiped though.

Most decent arenas have female locker rooms.

canadahockeygirl*
07-11-2005, 10:16 PM
I think you guys need to get out of the 1950's.

As long as I can remember, I've changed in the same locker rooms with guys. They've always walked around however they wanted, said whatever they've said and it's never been a big deal for me or any other female I know that grew up playing guys hockey OR the guys we've played with. It's no more a liability than if she were to change in a locker room with girls.

OilerNut*
07-11-2005, 10:22 PM
I think you guys need to get out of the 1950's.

As long as I can remember, I've changed in the same locker rooms with guys. They've always walked around however they wanted, said whatever they've said and it's never been a big deal for me or any other female I know that grew up playing guys hockey OR the guys we've played with. It's no more a liability than if she were to change in a locker room with girls.


I think you need to get your head out of the sand if you think the guys act the same with girls as they do with guys.

octopi
07-11-2005, 10:26 PM
Maybe the coaches could do the coaching on the ice, and/or there could be a "No stripping down" rule between periods. If anyone does want to strip down, theres stalls, right?

canadahockeygirl*
07-11-2005, 10:32 PM
I think you need to get your head out of the sand if you think the guys act the same with girls as they do with guys.
I've been in a locker room with them for the better part of twenty years. The only difference is now the men do'nt wave their schlongs in my face as they walk by. Everything else is the same.

You tell me what your experience as a woman in a mens' locker room is.

PACaptain
07-11-2005, 10:36 PM
I've been in a locker room with them for the better part of twenty years. The only difference is now the men do'nt wave their schlongs in my face as they walk by. Everything else is the same.

You tell me what your experience as a woman in a mens' locker room is.

I played with a girl in high school and it was almost an even bigger hit to camradarie when she would come in the locker room because everyone would change their behavior. The argument that they miss out on team bonding by changing in another room is flawed because of the changes that would occur if a woman changed with the men. It would have to be a very special girl for all of this to go off without a hitch.

I was just thinking about what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot, but there is no way I or any man would be able to change in a woman's locker room. Not for hockey. Not for soccer. Not for anything.

Poochie_D
07-11-2005, 10:47 PM
I played with a girl in high school and it was almost an even bigger hit to camradarie when she would come in the locker room because everyone would change their behavior. The argument that they miss out on team bonding by changing in another room is flawed because of the changes that would occur if a woman changed with the men. It would have to be a very special girl for all of this to go off without a hitch.

I was just thinking about what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot, but there is no way I or any man would be able to change in a woman's locker room. Not for hockey. Not for soccer. Not for anything.

agree completely. If a team changes its entire personality in the dressing room over a girl being there or ANYONE for that matter, that person shouldnt be there.

Im by no means sexist, but i really find this type of scenerio to really be one sided. if i was on a girls hockey team ( which i would never be able to be on) would they let me in there locker room? never. you could even relate this situation to Gays being allowed to marry in a church. If we let gays form there own religion so that they could get married in there church, would they let a straight couple wed in there church? not a chance. CASE CLOSED.

canadahockeygirl*
07-11-2005, 10:58 PM
Maybe the guys I knew weren't as immature and it didn't bother them as much. Either that or they were used to girls being around since girls hockey wasn't big when I was growing up and if you wanted to play, it had to be with the guys. Now I just prefer mens hockey to womens hockey since womens hockey is a joke.

The only time I haven't been in a guys locker room were during prep school hockey and when I played college, where the teams had their own locker rooms and there were actually girls teams. But the entire time, I still played mens hockey.

I see your point about some guys acting different, but I still think it's BS and not like that in every situation unless you're 13 and attracted to the chick. Probably about as much BS as comparing letting women in the locker room to gays getting married in church.

FLYLine24*
07-11-2005, 11:04 PM
Mite/Atom and Squirt level...I think it should be OK. Peewee and above, no.

devilsfan26
07-11-2005, 11:24 PM
Theres a few girls in the house league I played in and they changed in the same locker room as the guys, it was no big deal. Everyone always keeps their boxers on and take their showers at home, though.

BCCHL inactive
07-11-2005, 11:32 PM
As a minor hockey coach, absolutely not. This is not about "getting out of the 1950's", it is about protecting everybody involved...the girls from any possible abuse, the guys on the team from letting their hormones control them (in minor hockey, especially peewee and up, you know it's going to happen), and the coaches, parents and governing bodies from liability for any possible abuse.

The locker room is the place where the guys on the team can be themselves, they can talk how they want, etc. If you include a girl into the room, censorship on content and language is re-introduced.

Rules here in minor hockey, are that the guys must have t-shirts and all bottom equipment on before the girls may enter, wearing the same minimum amount of gear. That's the way it should be.

acr*
07-12-2005, 12:04 AM
If I had a 14 year old daughter, no way in hell would I let her anywhere near that lockerroom.

Jacob
07-12-2005, 12:34 AM
Yes, but only if she's good looking.

Human Megaphone
07-12-2005, 01:01 AM
Yes, but only if she's good looking.

Not sure what your hockey experience has been. From what I remember standards weren't really all that important.

OilerNut*
07-12-2005, 01:05 AM
As a minor hockey coach, absolutely not. This is not about "getting out of the 1950's", it is about protecting everybody involved...the girls from any possible abuse, the guys on the team from letting their hormones control them (in minor hockey, especially peewee and up, you know it's going to happen), and the coaches, parents and governing bodies from liability for any possible abuse.

The locker room is the place where the guys on the team can be themselves, they can talk how they want, etc. If you include a girl into the room, censorship on content and language is re-introduced.

Rules here in minor hockey, are that the guys must have t-shirts and all bottom equipment on before the girls may enter, wearing the same minimum amount of gear. That's the way it should be.

Good point, a lone girl in a locker room full of guys is just begging for problems. Next thing you know girls will be coming out to say they were forced to undress in front of the whole team, and who knows if she is telling the truth or not?

Shane
07-12-2005, 01:23 AM
Sounds hot.

Edonator
07-12-2005, 01:39 AM
I don't know what her mom's trying to do. If I was a parent, I wouldn't want my little girl sharing a dressing room with 20 other boys. It's ridiculous.

PDO
07-12-2005, 04:28 AM
I think you guys need to get out of the 1950's.

As long as I can remember, I've changed in the same locker rooms with guys. They've always walked around however they wanted, said whatever they've said and it's never been a big deal for me or any other female I know that grew up playing guys hockey OR the guys we've played with. It's no more a liability than if she were to change in a locker room with girls.

Sorry, have to call BS on you.

I've had two different girls on my team the last two years, and guys have definetly let up because of a girl being there (different girl each year). There's girls leagues for a reason. As much as the girls were treated well, there were several people unhappy with her being there - and they have every right to be. Another poster said he wouldn't be allowed to play in a girls league; why should it be any different?

RedK
07-12-2005, 06:23 AM
I'm with Canadahockeygirl. I'm a female player. I've been on teams where I've changed with my male teammates, and I've been on teams where we were separate. It's never been a big deal when I want to change with the guys. Changing away from them makes it very difficult to be a full part of the team.

As for the risks, if your team is going to focus and bond around sex, they are going to do it no matter who is in the locker room or where the female player is. Will she have to ride to the game in a separate car so she won't be the only girl on the bus with them? Not attend team functions so she won't be the only girl?

Girls and women take risks merely by existing. There's nothing we can do to make ourselves completely safe from ****, assault, harrassment, theft, murder or anything else. But if a girl has to worry about this sort of stuff from her teammates, then the team has a whole lot bigger problems than whether there is a girl changing on the bench next to you.

DJmastamind
07-12-2005, 07:17 AM
The hockey locker room or any sports locker room is not a place where normal social decorum is followed. The boys would be open to a lot of liability if they let a girl into the locker room. Even if she seems okay with it, you never know how far you could push the envelope before she would claim she was harassed.

Its a very sensitive situation to be sure, but I think seperate locker rooms are the better move.


I agree! I'm a girl that has played in boys/mens leagues and teams before. As much as I am laidback and whatnot, I fully agree that in this case seperate locker rooms are needed.

Listen boys are boys and i'm sure there are things that go on in the lockerroom I don't wanna know about, same with girls. Girls are girls and i'm sure you boys don't wanna know what goes on in our lockerroom, either.
Does that make sense??

Blind Gardien
07-12-2005, 07:31 AM
Some of the teams I've been on... jeez, I wouldn't want my son in those lockerrooms, never mind my daughter!

I dunno... intellectually, I get the idea about how good it would be to start changing society's inhibitions, about inclusiveness, acceptance, etc... but... practically as a parent... I just can't see using my own child to push that particular envelope. :dunno:

canadahockeygirl*
07-12-2005, 09:19 AM
Dude, I grew up in the early 80's. There weren't many girls leagues north of Boston back then until you got to the boarding school level, which is what I eventually did to play girls hockey. I wasn't going to make my parents drive all the way down to the South Shore for 6 am practices. I was pretty much forced into playing with the guys if I wanted to play at all.

My public HS coach (a guys team) said that he wouldn't ever let a chick in his locker room because it ruins the team bonding and whatever other excuse he could come up with hoping it would deter me from playing. So I'd change IN THE HALL outside the locker room (why plain view of the public was OK, but not the team, I'll never understand). Eventually the guys brought a petition to him asking if I could come back in-- they changed with me every weekend since we were kids and at that point they were like brothers to me, so what's the difference? I was allowed in and actually got to be part of the team instead of a player that showed up when it was convenient. The guys were very respectful of me, yet still joked around like they always had. Maybe in my situation it was more of a comfort level since I was always around. But since HS when the guys weren't as familiar (being on a club team in college and now in a few mens' leagues), I've never had an issue with people pinning me down and locking me into a gang bang. They still shoot their mouths off and don't hold anything back, but nothing horrid has ever happened. I'd like to think of this as the rule, not the exception.

I agree with you all that some guys can be stupid and immature. But it doesn't classify all male hockey players. If it's that big of a deal, maybe the line should be drawn at allowing a female on the team, instead of not letting her in the locker room.

Backin72
07-12-2005, 09:32 AM
If the female wants to be with the males, so be it. How are we to progress in society if we can't get past the sexual barrier? Women have far too long been forced to take the back seat. Time to take that one step forward instead of the two steps back.

Wisent
07-12-2005, 09:53 AM
I played with a girl in high school and it was almost an even bigger hit to camradarie when she would come in the locker room because everyone would change their behavior. The argument that they miss out on team bonding by changing in another room is flawed because of the changes that would occur if a woman changed with the men. It would have to be a very special girl for all of this to go off without a hitch.

I was just thinking about what would happen if the shoe was on the other foot, but there is no way I or any man would be able to change in a woman's locker room. Not for hockey. Not for soccer. Not for anything.
When I did dancing I had to, there was no other room vacant. Wasn't a problem, ever. I experienced it vice versa as well. Nothing bad to report.

Twist and Shout
07-12-2005, 11:44 AM
For males, the locker room is a place to let loose and really, anything goes. If a girl doesn't mind being in that environment, then all the power to her. But that girl would likely be jumping to press charges when a stupid teammate does something that would normally be acceptable in the locker room, had the girl not been there.

Frankly, I basically don't understand why girls are allowed to play in men's leagues. Call me a sexist but if good female players are allowed to play on a team with men, then why aren't crappy male players allowed to play on women's teams? I understand that some cities don't have sufficient programs/teams for women to participate in and only then can I realize why girls would want to play on a men's team.

If women are allowed into men's locker rooms, then shouldn't men be allowed to change in women's locker rooms?

There aren't a lot of male/female washrooms for a reason.

arrbez
07-12-2005, 11:54 AM
For males, the locker room is a place to let loose and really, anything goes. If a girl doesn't mind being in that environment, then all the power to her. But that girl would likely be jumping to press charges when a stupid teammate does something that would normally be acceptable in the locker room, had the girl not been there.

exactly, I remember the changeroom as a place to fart and have wrestling matches and talk about boobies. If a girl has no problem with that, then she's welcome to stay

Bloody Sabbath
07-12-2005, 12:02 PM
hang on, how old are they? if they're like 7....sure.

SkateLikeTheWind
07-12-2005, 12:04 PM
exactly, I remember the changeroom as a place to fart and have wrestling matches and talk about boobies. If a girl has no problem with that, then she's welcome to stay

You missed out if that's the most obscene your locker room got.

canadahockeygirl*
07-12-2005, 12:42 PM
For males, the locker room is a place to let loose and really, anything goes. If a girl doesn't mind being in that environment, then all the power to her. But that girl would likely be jumping to press charges when a stupid teammate does something that would normally be acceptable in the locker room, had the girl not been there.

I think that's a misconception that a lot of people have about women. We're not these delicate flowers that haven't ever heard a sex joke or something like that. Most of us (or at least all the ones I have known to play hockey) can handle a little sexual harassment now and then and will give it back in abundance.

Frankly, I basically don't understand why girls are allowed to play in men's leagues. Call me a sexist but if good female players are allowed to play on a team with men, then why aren't crappy male players allowed to play on women's teams? I understand that some cities don't have sufficient programs/teams for women to participate in and only then can I realize why girls would want to play on a men's team.

One, lack of options. Two, it's a different game. Three, cost.

Right now I play with men becuase it's more competitive and if I get involved in a mens league it's only around $350 (for a skater) as opposed to minimum $750 (that's a price for a goalie, not a skater) in womens leagues for sub-par special olympics hockey. In a nutshell, if I'm playing, I want it competitive-- even if it's above my level.

But a bigger reason I play with men is that I hate the BS that goes on with womens teams. Womens' hockey SUCKS-- at my age, there are very few non-beginner D-level recreation teams, and when you get a player that thinks she's cool because she just figured out how to lift a puck at 27, the ego is unrealistic. It makes it hard to play also when your captains are dating (my HS girls team had that happen, and in college it happened as well) or when you have a meltdown because girls are catty. Even at 45 years old, they're still going at it. I've never experienced that with any of the boys or mens teams I've been on. You go in the locker room, shoot the ****, go out and play, come back to the locker room, shoot more ****, get a few beers, then go on your way.

If a guy really wants to dumb down his game and play womens' hockey, more power to him. It's not the same game as mens' hockey. Granted the goal is the same, but a lot of people enjoy the physical aspect of the mens rules.

If women are allowed into men's locker rooms, then shouldn't men be allowed to change in women's locker rooms?

There aren't a lot of male/female washrooms for a reason.

Some men do. They're called transvestites. :)

Snap Wilson
07-12-2005, 12:46 PM
Girls are girls and i'm sure you boys don't wanna know what goes on in our lockerroom, either.

I want to know!

Hedberg
07-12-2005, 12:49 PM
Definately not at that age

arrbez
07-12-2005, 12:50 PM
You missed out if that's the most obscene your locker room got.

well, I'm thinking back more to my days as an 11-15 year old

but I've had the full changeroom experience in both hockey and lacrosse. Having played university lacrosse for the last couple years, I can confidently say that there are no bigger dirtbags in the world than lacrosse players :D

MaV
07-12-2005, 12:53 PM
I agree with you all that some guys can be stupid and immature. But it doesn't classify all male hockey players.

This is just something that caught my attention... aren't boys supposed to be immature by definition?

I can't really say anything about the subject, but most likely those girls who play with boys don't usually have the problem with sharing the locker room. Of course in a bigger team there are then different boys, some might find it amusing to have a girl there and some might be uncomfortable. Those who would not fall under either category would probably benefit from the more heterogeneous enviroment. I have no idea what it might so for "the team" and its performance, nor do I know if that is actually even so important.

Lard_Lad
07-12-2005, 12:55 PM
I think that's a misconception that a lot of people have about women. We're not these delicate flowers that haven't ever heard a sex joke or something like that. Most of us (or at least all the ones I have known to play hockey) can handle a little sexual harassment now and then and will give it back in abundance.

I agree, but given that in this case her mother has taken the case to the Human Rights Tribunal, can you blame the MHA for wondering what her reaction is going to be the first time her daughter mentions that somebody made an off-color comment?

(Incidentally, has anybody here been in the Lumby arena recently? My recollection of it from the early 80's is that it was pretty well-appointed for a small-town rink - big dressing rooms, and several of them. That makes me wonder why they were sticking her in boiler rooms and storage spaces to change, but maybe I'm confusing it with someplace else.)

canadahockeygirl*
07-12-2005, 12:55 PM
well, I'm thinking back more to my days as an 11-15 year old

but I've had the full changeroom experience in both hockey and lacrosse. Having played university lacrosse for the last couple years, I can confidently say that there are no bigger dirtbags in the world than lacrosse players :D
Rugby players are VERY huge dirtbags. :)

canadahockeygirl*
07-12-2005, 12:57 PM
Think of a male locker room, then take out the penises. Sometimes you can add a little hot girl on girl action, but they're not going to be girls you ever want to watch doing this hot girl on girl action.

It's pretty much as nasty as the boys locker room. Only we tend to go into some more sordid details

Twist and Shout
07-12-2005, 01:11 PM
I think that's a misconception that a lot of people have about women. We're not these delicate flowers that haven't ever heard a sex joke or something like that. Most of us (or at least all the ones I have known to play hockey) can handle a little sexual harassment now and then and will give it back in abundance.


Sex jokes are pretty much bound to happen in any situation in a guys locker room. It's the more "amusing" stuff that makes me wonder why a girl would want to share a locker room with a bunch of guys. Have you ever had a guy in your locker room wave his dick at you? If you haven't, I'd say you're pretty lucky as the guys probably don't feel comfortable to do it in front of you. But stuff like that (and much worse) happens all the time in male locker rooms on a lot of teams.

I have a lot of female friends who play hockey on guys teams and they're always the butt-end of jokes, no matter what. One of my friends was forced to change in the guys locker room because of the lack of another usable locker room to use prior to a game, and she was almost rap-ed by one of her teammates before someone called the coach.

I don't have anything against girls playing on men's teams if they're good enough. I just don't understand why they would deal with the "jokes" they would face, regardless of how much they love competition. Women being allowed to share a locker room with guys IMHO should never be allowed unless the girl knows all of the guys on the team very well, and it would be better if she also had a brother or a member of her family on the team.

SOS
07-12-2005, 01:52 PM
If boys aren't allowed in the girls change room, then girls shouldn't be allowed in the boys change room. Simple as that. Breaking barriers, getting out of the 50's...blah blah. It goes both ways. I'm sick of these double standards.

EQUAL RIGHTS FOR MEN!!!

Sammy*
07-12-2005, 02:08 PM
If the female wants to be with the males, so be it. .
So its a one way street in your world? The minorities tyranny over the majority?
Yeah, no doubt you would give the male the same benifit with a bunch of females.

Jacob
07-12-2005, 02:16 PM
I think that's a misconception that a lot of people have about women. We're not these delicate flowers that haven't ever heard a sex joke or something like that. Most of us (or at least all the ones I have known to play hockey) can handle a little sexual harassment now and then and will give it back in abundance.
For every girl that can handle the odd sexist/misogynistic remark, there are probably two or three that will slap a lawsuit on you. As a male, it's simply not worth the risk to even contemplate making such remarks in the presence of a female.

Backin72
07-12-2005, 02:17 PM
So its a one way street in your world? The minorities tyranny over the majority?
Yeah, no doubt you would give the male the same benifit with a bunch of females.

Stand back fella, never said it was a one way street, unless you'd like to point that out to me. :shakehead

Don't make assumptions.

Pure Rock Fury*
07-12-2005, 02:43 PM
I've had girls on my team several times, they've always been allowed in the lockerroom, and there's never been any problems. Nobody changed the way they acted just because there was a girl in the room. When you're in that locker room or on the ice, we're all teammates, it doesn't matter if they're male or female.

cassius
07-12-2005, 03:09 PM
Our HS hockey team had a girl on it.. and it was no problem.

Roughneck
07-12-2005, 03:34 PM
Hockey chicks are different from normal girls, they can handle what goes on in a guys locker room, if they can't then they shouldn't be playing guys hockey. I've never seen any problems with girls in our locker room before, and none of my friends have either.

In fact, from my experience, most girls that play on guys teams when they're away from the rink have a problem with being "one of the guys" because of the team attitude.

But I say let the team decide, afterall, its about them, if they do vote to keep her out, then she should leave the team because they clearly don't see her as part of it, and thats no fun for anyone.

Hyack57
07-12-2005, 04:48 PM
Yeah but I wonder how well it would go over if the situations were reversed? If a guy was pushing to be able to be allowed in the same change room as women. LOL. It would never fly.

Aerolanche
07-12-2005, 05:10 PM
You want boys and girls in the same dressing room? Fine. 2 words.

Under Armour.

As for showering after the game, depending on the arena, a situation won't be too hard to figure out. My arena has the showers for dressing rooms 1/2 connected as well as 3/4. In that case, since 2 dressing rooms are empty at the time of the shower because the other teams are on the ice, the females and males could use the showers for the other dressing room. Is that too hard?

CornKicker
07-12-2005, 05:46 PM
I thought 85% of female hockey players were lesbians anyway so they are probably all talking about the same thing. I see no problem with sharing :dunno:

Bruins4Ever
07-12-2005, 06:18 PM
I'm for no on this one. Sure, I'm 16 a yes, girls are very interesting, very interesting. But the problem I have with it is that I know a lot of ass hole friends. Put a girl in there, and suddenly she's being harassed. I personally wouldn't be an ass, but that's just how i was brought up. I don't smoke, do drugs, etc. so I'm pretty grounded for the most part. The problem is that at the age of the girl (14) all the guys are starting to notice her develop. It can only lead to problems with the coaches having to punish the players, and the girls parents getting involved. It just doesn't seem like it's worth all the trouble IMO. It's not really fair though, guys can't be on girls teams or go in girls dressing rooms, but it's ok if it's the opposite. If this goes through court and the girls family wins, it's going to create a huge mess for every other mens or womens league allowing the opposite sex in, and allowing them to be in the same changing room. Too much trouble for what it's worth IMO.

Twist and Shout
07-12-2005, 08:33 PM
I thought 85% of female hockey players were lesbians anyway so they are probably all talking about the same thing. I see no problem with sharing :dunno:

More like 5-7% at the most

kingsfan
07-12-2005, 09:04 PM
On a personal level, I would have an issue with it, since I was a 14-year-old boy once and I know that if a girl was changing in the stall next to me, shorts and t-shirt or not, I'd be looking. I wouldn't say any wise ass comments or whatever, unless the girl could take it and dish it out just as well, but I know that likely, that girl, or girls, would become eye candy to a collect of about 20 mid-teen boys. Guys in high school/university likely can handle it better, for maturity and other reasons, but a 14-year-old boys 'curiousity' isn't a good thing to have in this situation.

That said, there have been a number of a women on this thread that have said they have been on men's teams for years and that it hasn't been an issue and I have no personal experience myself with girls on the same team as me, so I'll go along with it. If those that have lived through it have no complaints, on the whole, why should I?

I will still say no to the idea though on the matter of principal. If a guy can't be on a girls team and change in a girls locker room, it shouldn't be perfectly fine the other way around. Unless their is a clear lack of women hockey programs in a given area, women should not be allowed on men's teams and, therefore, not allowed to change in men's locker rooms.

Big Phil
07-12-2005, 09:11 PM
I have alot to say about this one here. First off this will enrage a lot of people what I am about to say. But it is as true as it is rude. MOST female hockey players are not attractive. How many of us consider Haley Wickenheiser to be hot? Not me. I'll bet more of you would be scared to see her down a dark alley alone. So right there that's half your problem eliminated.

But to all the girls out there I got a message for you. If you played Hockey before and had no problem changing in front of guys then the sad truth is that you must not be eye candy by any means. Sorry. If you looked like Jessica Simpson then there would be a big rift in the dressing room. One guy would be trying to pick her up, and another would fight over her and so on. And why not they just saw her naked, that's half the battle there. And I'm talking ADULTS here too.

Now as for a 14 year old, what mother in her right mind wants her daughter's dignity to be on display in front of 20 boys? I remember exactly what I was thinking at 13-14 years old. It was girls! All the time. And like any other boy I dreamnt of peeking into the changing rooms at school during Gym class. Let's face it at that age you are immature, bad, bad things can happen if you put a naked 14 year old girl with 20 naked boys. Not a good ice breaker. A recipe for disaster.

Now to all the guys who thought this was okay picture this: If you are a man then you think the same as me. Therefore you may be awkward, excited or even embarassd in this situation. But be honest, when the girls back is turned every guy on the team is talking about her body parts. Its true. We as men know we'll do that. So knowing that, how would you feel if your mother, or daughter was changing in front of those guys? Or worse yet your wife or girlfriend? I wouldn't allow my girlfriend within 100 yards of there. Why? Cause men think dirty things like that. Do we admit that to women even if they are changng beside us? No way, but when they are out of the room we do a 180 turn. I'm an adult and I say that, now picture 14 year olds! If I'm wrong then reply to me!

BCCHL inactive
07-12-2005, 09:14 PM
You want boys and girls in the same dressing room? Fine. 2 words.

Under Armour.

As for showering after the game, depending on the arena, a situation won't be too hard to figure out. My arena has the showers for dressing rooms 1/2 connected as well as 3/4. In that case, since 2 dressing rooms are empty at the time of the shower because the other teams are on the ice, the females and males could use the showers for the other dressing room. Is that too hard?

Not many teams would want to leave their dressing rooms unlocked while on the ice. I know I wouldn't let players from another team shower in my team's room.

The girls who think they should be allowed to change with the guys are forgetting the biggest issue: liability.

As already mentioned, while you might not care if you see a guy's package while he quickly drops his boxers and puts on some hockey underwear, 95% of the world sees a problem with that. (Also, depending on what you wear under your gear, if any of the guys get a glimpse of your chest, you know you're going to hear about it.) If something does happen, the governing association, the coach (me), parents of any guilty boys, and likely the girl's parents as well, are all liable for whatever abuse might take place. No way will I ever take that risk.

In the refs room, our options are limited. Therefore it becomes somewhat of a circus when we call a game with a female official on the crew. Official rules say the male officials must be out of the room when the female is changing, and then she must leave when we go to change. That said, there is usually only one female with two guys calling the game, so she'll usually just go into the bathroom stall to change, and we'll quickly change at the same time.

BCCHL inactive
07-12-2005, 09:16 PM
I have alot to say about this one here. First off this will enrage a lot of people what I am about to say. But it is as true as it is rude. MOST female hockey players are not attractive. How many of us consider Haley Wickenheiser to be hot? Not me. I'll bet more of you would be scared to see her down a dark alley alone. So right there that's half your problem eliminated.

If you know hockey players, you'd know that what girls look like usually doesn't matter to them when their minds are in the gutter. You should see some of the girls who hang out at hockey rinks (we call them "pucks"). Not all of them are appealing to the eye.

DisgruntledHawkFan
07-13-2005, 12:59 AM
Not a chance in hell. In the ideal world this would work, but the world is far from ideal. A guy with 5 of his buddies playing x-box is a totally different person from the guy taking his girl on a date. The liability would be far too complicated, and I believe the team would suffer as a whole. The comment about the girl having a family member in there with you, I sure as hell wouldn't be comfortable changing in the same room as my sister/daughter/niece/whatever. This is just to messy with way to much grey area involved for me.

Aerolanche
07-13-2005, 01:23 AM
Not many teams would want to leave their dressing rooms unlocked while on the ice. I know I wouldn't let players from another team shower in my team's room.

Sorry, I didn't explain it well, the access to the showers for the room is cut off from the actual other room,the lock is from the inside. This is meant for that situation.

If you know hockey players, you'd know that what girls look like usually doesn't matter to them when their minds are in the gutter. You should see some of the girls who hang out at hockey rinks (we call them "pucks"). Not all of them are appealing to the eye.

:lol: It's so true.

oilers144
07-13-2005, 01:26 AM
im all for it if the girl on ur team is hot i dont think watching her shower would be a bad thing lol

BCCHL inactive
07-13-2005, 01:27 AM
im all for it if the girl on ur team is hot i dont think watching her shower would be a bad thing lol

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Exhibit A.

McDonald19
07-13-2005, 05:02 AM
Seperate locker rooms for under 18...after that if adult teams want to have co-ed locker rooms thats fine.

If I had a 13 year old daughter on a boys team I'd do everything I could to make sure she wasn't in the same locker room as her male teammates.

Just asking for trouble when you put a couple of teenage girls in a locker room with 10-20 teenage boys.

RedK
07-13-2005, 06:25 AM
But a bigger reason I play with men is that I hate the BS that goes on with womens teams. Womens' hockey SUCKS-- at my age, there are very few non-beginner D-level recreation teams, and when you get a player that thinks she's cool because she just figured out how to lift a puck at 27, the ego is unrealistic. It makes it hard to play also when your captains are dating (my HS girls team had that happen, and in college it happened as well) or when you have a meltdown because girls are catty. Even at 45 years old, they're still going at it. I've never experienced that with any of the boys or mens teams I've been on. You go in the locker room, shoot the ****, go out and play, come back to the locker room, shoot more ****, get a few beers, then go on your way.

If a guy really wants to dumb down his game and play womens' hockey, more power to him. It's not the same game as mens' hockey. Granted the goal is the same, but a lot of people enjoy the physical aspect of the mens rules.

:eek: Oh my god, we obviously have 'tended for the same women's teams! :) I play for competition, not melodrama. I like my intensity on the ice, not in the politics off it. I like hard shots, fast skating and complex plays. I much prefer playing with the guys.

Sammy*
07-13-2005, 07:21 AM
Stand back fella, never said it was a one way street, unless you'd like to point that out to me. :shakehead

Don't make assumptions.
Oh sorry. Its not a one way world.
But you of course believe that 1 persons wants should over-ride everbody elses?
And I take it you think its ok if the situations were reversed?

Backin72
07-13-2005, 08:28 AM
But you of course believe that 1 persons wants should over-ride everbody elses?


Huh? Where in that article did it say that everybody else was against it? I believe the opposite is true.
Ms. Emlyn said most of the youngsters on the team say they're fine with mixed changing rooms, but she has received several anonymous e-mails condemning her petition.

And I take it you think its ok if the situations were reversed?

yup.

Sammy*
07-13-2005, 08:40 AM
Huh? Where in that article did it say that everybody else was against it? I believe the opposite is true.

I took your comment of "If the female wants to be with the males, so be it. . " as to be more of a general comment in terms of if she wants something, she should be entitled to it. Mea culpa.
I am frankly betwixed & between. If most of the kids/parents are ok with it, one part of me thinks it should be ok. But the other part of me just has this very basic response that it shouldnt happen, cause of the obvious boy/girl reasons as well as the impact it may have on a dressing room.
I dunno.
And oh, btw, I dont for a moment think if the situations were reversed that people would be near as liberal as they appear to be on this issue.

Ogopogo*
07-13-2005, 10:49 AM
This hockey mom is absolutely off her nut. The title of this thread should be "Hockey mom wants daughter to be r a p e d" I am NOT saying that thes boys would do that but why in the hell would you put your half naked 14 year old daughter in a room with 3/4 naked 14 year old boys? Nothing good can come from it. The extra comraderie and coaching will be more than offset by the improper situation that everyone is in. Why do we have separate men's and women's bathrooms in society? It ain't proper for opposite sexes to get dressed together.

This mom needs serious help.

ChrisKreider20
07-13-2005, 10:57 AM
Let her in but pretty soon the mom will want her out when the boys start ogling at her breasts. I had a girl on my team a 3 yrs ago actually at the same age 14...she didn't feel confortable in the guys change room cuz frankly we'd all be staring at her and she wanted her privacy. If she really wants let her in but I can guarantee with in 2 days she'll want out. :)

cjbhab
07-13-2005, 12:12 PM
im all for it if the girl on ur team is hot i dont think watching her shower would be a bad thing lol

I agree man, you hit this one dead on!

canadahockeygirl*
07-13-2005, 12:34 PM
Sex jokes are pretty much bound to happen in any situation in a guys locker room. It's the more "amusing" stuff that makes me wonder why a girl would want to share a locker room with a bunch of guys. Have you ever had a guy in your locker room wave his dick at you? If you haven't, I'd say you're pretty lucky as the guys probably don't feel comfortable to do it in front of you. But stuff like that (and much worse) happens all the time in male locker rooms on a lot of teams.

I know what goes on in locker rooms. Actually, if you went back to one of my first posts here, you'd see that I mentioned that the only difference playing mens hockey now and boys hockey then is that the older guys no longer wave their dicks in my face. I was very much part of the locker room fun. While I didn't have a dick to hang in some of the guys' faces, I did get a chance to suffocate them with sweaty boobs. :) But those were also the guys that I grew up with that I looked at as brothers-- never dated them, slept over their houses and nothing sexual would happen (I think the closest I ever got to hooking up with one of them was spin the bottle)-- you just don't cross that line with teammates. Male or female.

However, on the flip side, I usually take into account that some guys are uncomfortable with a chick in the locker room and know where to draw the line. I don't change facing them (this gives them and me privacy), put a towel around my waist, stuff like that. Yeah, I'll sit there in a sports bra and my shorts, but I don't get stark naked and will shower at home OR when the guys aren't going in there. But I was never a strip down so everyone can see my ass type of girl.

I have a lot of female friends who play hockey on guys teams and they're always the butt-end of jokes, no matter what. One of my friends was forced to change in the guys locker room because of the lack of another usable locker room to use prior to a game, and she was almost rap-ed by one of her teammates before someone called the coach.

Almost being ***** by her teammates is clear stupidity on their part and I don't think it's the norm. I'm sorry she had to go through that though.

My team nickname when I was a teenager was "****". There was also a kid named "tripod" and one nicknamed "DSL". We used to joke all the time about stuff like that, and to be honest, I never felt like any of it crossed the line since it was equally distributed. They respected me because I could play and because I would assert myself when they were out of line.

I don't have anything against girls playing on men's teams if they're good enough. I just don't understand why they would deal with the "jokes" they would face, regardless of how much they love competition. Women being allowed to share a locker room with guys IMHO should never be allowed unless the girl knows all of the guys on the team very well, and it would be better if she also had a brother or a member of her family on the team.

I understand where you're coming from, but as you get older the locker room changes.

I never considered it dealing with the jokes because I got just as much a kick out of them as the guys did, and gave it back equally. I realized what could happen in a locker room and made sure it didn't. Don't get me wrong, I have had my troubles with mens teams, but the few issues I've had haven't outweighed the fun and wouldn't stop me from playing with other guys in the future.

However, I have had a few relationships break apart because the guys were too insecure with my being in a locker room with other men. Everyone has this image of locker room gang bangs and stuff like that, but it's not the case everywhere. Some people are out to play, not score a piece of meat.

Good stuff though. It's nice to see the other side of things.

CornKicker
07-13-2005, 12:46 PM
More like 5-7% at the most

It could definetly be that way in europe or overseas but I know for a fact that 17 of 23 girls on my local college team were lesbians. They are very open and honest about it and a friend of mine (one of the 6 not lesbians) said they were very crude and nasty. And just when dudes think "yes hot lesbians" you are quickly assured that these are not of the hot variety but the " Hey is that your little brother? Ohhh my bad, thats Suzy from the hockey team" "when did she shave a buzz cut and start wearing army pants" :thumbd:

mydnyte
07-13-2005, 02:37 PM
do they let boys play in the womens leagues ...nope ...so, i dont know why/how society can permit this type of bias.

4thLineGoon
07-13-2005, 03:56 PM
Why do we have separate men's and women's bathrooms in society? It ain't proper for opposite sexes to get dressed together.


I thought we had seperate bathrooms so I wouldn't have to smell/listen to some girl taking a nasty dump, which would cause me to be unable to ever have sex with her.

McDonald19
07-13-2005, 08:49 PM
I thought we had seperate bathrooms so I wouldn't have to smell/listen to some girl taking a nasty dump, which would cause me to be unable to ever have sex with her.

yeah like the scene from "Harold and Kumar go to WhiteCastle"

LaLaLaprise
07-13-2005, 09:14 PM
I'm with Canadahockeygirl. I'm a female player. I've been on teams where I've changed with my male teammates, and I've been on teams where we were separate. It's never been a big deal when I want to change with the guys. Changing away from them makes it very difficult to be a full part of the team.

As for the risks, if your team is going to focus and bond around sex, they are going to do it no matter who is in the locker room or where the female player is. Will she have to ride to the game in a separate car so she won't be the only girl on the bus with them? Not attend team functions so she won't be the only girl?

Girls and women take risks merely by existing. There's nothing we can do to make ourselves completely safe from ****, assault, harrassment, theft, murder or anything else. But if a girl has to worry about this sort of stuff from her teammates, then the team has a whole lot bigger problems than whether there is a girl changing on the bench next to you.


Ok first of all youve never been in a change room with ALL guys (no girls) so you dont know how the guys act WITH and WITHOUT a girl in there. You may think the way they act with a girl is normal and how they act all the time, but i can GAURENTEE you that they let up.

LaLaLaprise
07-13-2005, 09:26 PM
What people are missing is it DOES NOT MATTER how comfortable a woman is in the guys change room. If guys were comfortable in the womens change rooms would we be allowed in? Hell no.

Having a girl in the guys change rooms makes some guys nervous. You dont know where that fine line is and how the girl will re-act. 20 guys in a change room act differently than 20 guys and 1 girl. Girls will dispute this but they have never been in the room when girls arent present. If you think a hockey locker room is bad when a girl is in the room, multipy that by 5 and thats how it is when its all guys.

There are Male and Female restrooms for a reason.

FearTheFlyers
07-13-2005, 09:41 PM
The argument that if women can play with men then men sshould be able to play with women is laughable. There is simply nowhere else for an average female hockey player to play if she wishes to move to a different level of competition. Whereas men who need to take a step down can simply slide into a beer league or low level hockey, not switch into women`s hockey.

Kids, no. You don`t want a 12 or 13 year old girl in a locker room because it creates a potentially dangerous situation.

But if anyone thinks someone like Canadahockeygirl shouldn`t be allowed to play in a men`s league they are nuts.She and her teammates are clearly mature enough to not let a stupid situation like this overcome the team.

Anthony Mauro
07-13-2005, 09:59 PM
What people are missing is it DOES NOT MATTER how comfortable a woman is in the guys change room. If guys were comfortable in the womens change rooms would we be allowed in? Hell no.

Having a girl in the guys change rooms makes some guys nervous. You dont know where that fine line is and how the girl will re-act. 20 guys in a change room act differently than 20 guys and 1 girl. Girls will dispute this but they have never been in the room when girls arent present. If you think a hockey locker room is bad when a girl is in the room, multipy that by 5 and thats how it is when its all guys.

There are Male and Female restrooms for a reason.

No doubt. Playing High School hockey was one of the most vulgar things I've experienced lol. With rich kids spouting their mouths when daddy and mommy weren't around it was a different type of say atmosphere. Name calling, inappropriate actions, all that jazz. I don't know how other types of leagues and teams would act with a girl around, but even with a toned down lockerroom version I'd have to call the parent's morons if they let their daughter be around that environment. I know for damn sure I wouldn't let mine or won't when the time comes.

I can't even believe this parent is pushing it. :cry:

canadahockeygirl*
07-13-2005, 11:02 PM
It could definetly be that way in europe or overseas but I know for a fact that 17 of 23 girls on my local college team were lesbians. They are very open and honest about it and a friend of mine (one of the 6 not lesbians) said they were very crude and nasty. And just when dudes think "yes hot lesbians" you are quickly assured that these are not of the hot variety but the " Hey is that your little brother? Ohhh my bad, thats Suzy from the hockey team" "when did she shave a buzz cut and start wearing army pants" :thumbd:
Oh there are definitely a bunch of lesbians on the female hockey teams I've played on. I think the last team I played on, only five (six if you include me) were not lesbians. However, on my HS team, only three were.

Mxpunk
07-13-2005, 11:12 PM
No. I'm not trying to be sexist, but I think the benefits of such an arrangement are SEVERELY outweighed by the costs and potential problems. This can lead to sexual harassment, assault, etc. Not only that, but as boys get older, they'll surely tease the girl, or she will get those glances in the locker room...What is the benefit of allowing a girl to change in the same locker room? Can't she come in to the locker room when everyone is changed and listen in on the team meetings?

Moreover, do you think most girls would really want to be the only the girl in the locker room? I doubt it....

I've played on A LOT of hockey teams, and there are tons of sex jokes that go around the locker room before and after practice...Do you think the girls really want to be a part/target of that?

Air
07-14-2005, 01:11 AM
Moreover, do you think most girls would really want to be the only the girl in the locker room? I doubt it....

Well, sort of. (Read on)

I just want to point out that a lot of this is happening in the NHL. Sort of. Female reporters and journalists are allowed in dressing rooms, where players are just coming from the shower and barely dressed. (Remember that video a while ago of some guy being interviewed while his teammate was showering naked in the background?) I know it's not the same thing because journalists aren't getting naked, but it's still equally as embarrassing for the girls because these are, after all, bucknaked athletes.

What people are missing is it DOES NOT MATTER how comfortable a woman is in the guys change room. If guys were comfortable in the womens change rooms would we be allowed in? Hell no.

Male journalists go into female dressing rooms. I think that was on an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond once.

No doubt. Playing High School hockey was one of the most vulgar things I've experienced lol. With rich kids spouting their mouths when daddy and mommy weren't around it was a different type of say atmosphere. Name calling, inappropriate actions, all that jazz. I don't know how other types of leagues and teams would act with a girl around, but even with a toned down lockerroom version I'd have to call the parent's morons if they let their daughter be around that environment. I know for damn sure I wouldn't let mine or won't when the time comes.

I'm guessing you're talking about a "Junior Hockey Bible" (before they got sued) kind of environment? I don't know, I'm kind of uncomfortable with that because I've always heard it being described as wrong to be in that kind of environment, but I've never heard anything about that type of environment being ... ill-suited, itself, for kids that age, regardless of gender. Like, why would it be okay for guys to do that but not for girls to see it? (If I'm understanding you correctly?) Is the behaviour just universally accepted?

Vincent_TheGreat
07-14-2005, 01:13 AM
http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/soundoff/story.html?id=2aa28604-33b0-4d73-951f-1e5d56eb62f4

Basically what the story says is that the daughters mother feels as though her daughter should be allowed to be in the same dressing room as the guys.

I think its complete ********, I happen to play rec hockey and after and before the game there are guys walking around the locker room nude, showering, getting changed, etc. How can you feel comfortable doing that when there are girls in there as well?

Absolutely not. Is this mom retarded. Guys walking around naked in front of her daughter, ah no biggie! No seperations, come on its a change room. How bout we merge washrooms and change rooms in public places. You just know nothing good would come of this! I would go to no dress code, HA, I'd take off my equipment down till I'm naked and walk by the girls for the fun if it, how's that! Huh, how's that for camaraderie? Rights ar being violated, HA. Any bets that this girl is a feminist???

King'sPawn
07-14-2005, 03:07 AM
The mom wants her daughter to dress with the boys, and is okay if she's exposed to it. Did she ever think that, maybe, a couple parents of the boys would be uncomfortable with having their son dress with a girl or two? Seems fairly shortsighted and selfish on the mom's part.

Even if every parent agreed to it, I just do not think it's appropriate for girls and boys under 18 to dress with each other. When they're over 18, it's just a bad idea.

Bileur
07-14-2005, 03:18 AM
If this goes through i'm joining a womens rec league and insisting on changing in their lockeroom.

LaLaLaprise
07-14-2005, 07:05 AM
Well, sort of. (Read on)

I just want to point out that a lot of this is happening in the NHL. Sort of. Female reporters and journalists are allowed in dressing rooms, where players are just coming from the shower and barely dressed. (Remember that video a while ago of some guy being interviewed while his teammate was showering naked in the background?) I know it's not the same thing because journalists aren't getting naked, but it's still equally as embarrassing for the girls because these are, after all, bucknaked athletes.









And ask any of those female reporters and they will tell you they are uncomfortable to be in that position and they get harassed.

Holly Gunning
07-14-2005, 08:35 AM
And ask any of those female reporters and they will tell you they are uncomfortable to be in that position and they get harassed.
Any? That's quite presumptuous. No, very.

I do both things under discussion here, reporting in the locker room, and dressing with my team. Neither are as big of a deal as all of you are making them. Amongst adults at least, which is what I can speak to.

I do prefer the player I am writing a feature on to shower, dress and come into the hallway to talk to me, but mostly because then we are in a quieter place, and can take more time talking. Locker rooms are loud and busy and not conducive to any good conversation. But I have less pressing deadlines than most reporters, so I have that luxury.

I play rec hockey on a mostly men's team. Of course I dress with them, the locker room is assigned to the team, not to the men on the team. Half the fun of playing hockey is the friends you make. I wouldn't miss it.

Now, of course I'm an adult dealing with adults. It's no problem. Teenagers, I would agree are a completely different animal. But forcing someone to dress in the hall is crap, that's for sure. Until there is equal space for everyone, there may not be a way around having everyone on the team dress in the same place.

LaLaLaprise
07-14-2005, 08:37 AM
Any? That's quite presumptuous. No, very.

I do both things under discussion here, reporting in the locker room, and dressing with my team. Neither are as big of a deal as all of you are making them. Amongst adults at least, which is what I can speak to.

I do prefer the player I am writing a feature on to shower, dress and come into the hallway to talk to me, but mostly because then we are in a quieter place, and can take more time talking. Locker rooms are loud and busy and not conducive to any good conversation. But I have less pressing deadlines than most reporters, so I have that luxury.

I play rec hockey on a mostly men's team. Of course I dress with them, the locker room is assigned to the team, not to the men on the team. Half the fun of playing hockey is the friends you make. I wouldn't miss it.

Now, of course I'm an adult dealing with adults. It's no problem. Teenagers, I would agree are a completely different animal. But forcing someone to dress in the hall is crap, that's for sure. Until there is equal space for everyone, there may not be a way around having everyone on the team dress in the same place.

Amonst adults and amonst 14 year olds is completly different, I think that is what most people have a problem with. When youre an adult youre better equiped to handle situations that may arise, when youre 14 i doubt thats possible.

canadahockeygirl*
07-14-2005, 08:52 AM
Again, I think a lot of you are underestimating what women can handle.

Either that or you're so woman-like yourselves that you couldn't handle the "traumas" of the locker room despite being the same gender as what you're changing in.

The argument that "fine, well, I'll just go play with women" is stupid. The reason there is women's hockey (and I mean this to no offense to any women's hockey player reading) is that women NOW for the most part weren't introduced to the game at an early age and can't keep up with the men. Most women's teams are beginner level. Granted in the US (especially in MA) there has been a recent boom of girls hockey at both the beginner and competitive levels, so when they get older they will have the chance to continue playing on a competitive level with women. They won't have to cross over and play with men unless they're in an area that doesn't have that option. Case in point-- the only competitive womens teams in the Boston area are travel teams that play at least an hour from where I live. Why should I waste the time commuting when I have an equally competitive mens league at the rink at school? One day that won't be an issue. Men have tons of options available to them at any level. There is really no need for a man to be playing women's hockey unless he just wants the extra ice time. And I have been part of a team that allowed two men on it who weren't exactly the best players. They played in games and completely dominated since their "not being good" was heads and shoulders above the beginner level of these women.

Holly, you bring up another great point-- most rinks don't have enough changing rooms to segregate men and women if there are multiple teams using the facility. One of the rinks I used to play at had 3 rinks, 6 changing rooms, and a separate bathroom that wasn't attached by any runners to the rinks. I'd change down to skin in the bathroom, run all the way back to rinkside in my sports bra and shorts to where my skates and pads would be and put them on. If there was a line in the ladies room, it would take longer for me to get dressed. When the teams are changing and you want your female player to go elsewhere, her choice is very limited, and often less safe than a locker room.

Anthony Mauro
07-14-2005, 10:11 AM
Either that or you're so woman-like yourselves that you couldn't handle the "traumas" of the locker room despite being the same gender as what you're changing in.

I dont know what kind of a butch, manly woman you're pretending to be but its not about "handling" anything. Anyone who likes hockey would put up with some pretty bad things to play the game they love. Its about subjecting women to this nature of the mens lockerroom. Its not ladylike and feminine to have a woman cursing and jerking around with the guys no matter what you say you're comfortable with. Nor is it right to have a women there listening in and getting that junk thrown around in front of her. There's a place for women and thats not one of them MO. It shouldn't be about pretending to be one of the guys.

Either way you cut it, that was a poor attempt at making fun of guys who are trying to shed light and make sure little girls aren't put in a situation that could be harmful.

DJmastamind
07-14-2005, 10:41 AM
I dont know what kind of a butch, manly woman you're pretending to be but its not about "handling" anything. Anyone who likes hockey would put up with some pretty bad things to play the game they love. Its about subjecting women to this nature of the mens lockerroom. Its not ladylike and feminine to have a woman cursing and jerking around with the guys no matter what you say you're comfortable with. Nor is it right to have a women there listening in and getting that junk thrown around in front of her. There's a place for women and thats not one of them MO. It shouldn't be about pretending to be one of the guys.

Either way you cut it, that was a poor attempt at making fun of guys who are trying to shed light and make sure little girls aren't put in a situation that could be harmful.


Again i agree. I've played hockey since I was 4. I've played men's and women's hockey. I'm a high level player, and men play at that level. Women's hockey isn't usually that competitive, but this isn't about who is competitive or not.

This is about sharing lockerroom and the consequences that come with it. Yea I know the women want to be equals, but what goes on in a men's lockerroom isn't appropriate for women to be around, and vice vera. Guys, women can be just as vulguar, BUT that still doesn't mean I think shared lockerrooms is a good idea. Just too much could happen. Mental abuse, and quite possibly physical abuse, whatnot.

Plain and simple isn't NOT a good idea

LaLaLaprise
07-14-2005, 11:37 AM
Has anyone ever thought that the guys may be nervous about this? Ok so some girls are fine with it, and this 14 year old giorls mother is fine with it but what about the 20 other 14 year olds boys and their 40 parents. What if they arent fine with it?


Its a 2-way street that some people are failing to recognize.

mydnyte
07-14-2005, 11:43 AM
the mother should be charged with Child Endangerment!!

santiclaws
07-14-2005, 12:06 PM
Putting aside any issues of being or not being able to "handle" it, any league which allowed girls to dress in the same locker room with boys would be begging to be sued--for a remark, some lewd act, not to mention even worse scenarios.

I would not want the future of a league to rest on the shoulders of dozens of 14-year-old boys in the hopes that they behave themselves. Even if every single one of them does behave, that hardly means that lawsuits won't happen.

Rusty Shackleford
07-14-2005, 01:58 PM
Well just 3 years ago when I was 14 there a girl on my rep team and apparently one time at a pratice( I wasn't there) this bonehead on our team let his urges get to him and got charged with Sexual Harrassment AND Sexual Abuse.

Apparently it was rather sick according to some players and I'm glad I wasn't there.

kingsfan
07-14-2005, 03:11 PM
The argument that if women can play with men then men sshould be able to play with women is laughable. There is simply nowhere else for an average female hockey player to play if she wishes to move to a different level of competition. Whereas men who need to take a step down can simply slide into a beer league or low level hockey, not switch into women`s hockey.

Women's hockey is non-contact, where as most men and beer leagues aren't. What if a guy wants to play in a non-contact league and his only option is the woman's league? I guess that's laughable rather than fair though. Bottom line is, what the goose wants, the gander should be able to get too. If women want to play with the men, the men should have the option to play with the women.

And as for there being no where else for an average female player to go, maybe that average female player should stick around to help develop the women's game rather than jump to the men's league. It's one thing if you want to do it so as to make a career out of it and make a living, like Wickenheiser did when she tried played in Europe a while back, but if we are talking 14-year-olds, try and help the women's game by playing with other women and helping them improve their game rather than jumping ship to the men.

Anthony Mauro
07-14-2005, 03:36 PM
And as for there being no where else for an average female player to go, maybe that average female player should stick around to help develop the women's game rather than jump to the men's league. It's one thing if you want to do it so as to make a career out of it and make a living, like Wickenheiser did when she tried played in Europe a while back, but if we are talking 14-year-olds, try and help the women's game by playing with other women and helping them improve their game rather than jumping ship to the men.

Thats another thing I was thinking about. Maybe if the leagues aren't up to your standards you could actually do some work and talk to your local rink about trying out and making a new league. If not alot of women show up and the league can't function, then jump ship to mens. But it seems like some women just wanna leave others in the dust.

Accord
07-14-2005, 04:25 PM
In my beer league, there were two women on my team and we all changed in the same lockerroom, it's really not a big deal AT ALL.

canadahockeygirl*
07-14-2005, 05:48 PM
I dont know what kind of a butch, manly woman you're pretending to be but its not about "handling" anything. Anyone who likes hockey would put up with some pretty bad things to play the game they love. Its about subjecting women to this nature of the mens lockerroom. Its not ladylike and feminine to have a woman cursing and jerking around with the guys no matter what you say you're comfortable with. Nor is it right to have a women there listening in and getting that junk thrown around in front of her. There's a place for women and thats not one of them MO. It shouldn't be about pretending to be one of the guys.

Either way you cut it, that was a poor attempt at making fun of guys who are trying to shed light and make sure little girls aren't put in a situation that could be harmful.
I'm not butch nor manly, nor was I pretending to be. I'm very feminine (was prom and homecoming queen) and able to take a joke fairly well and don't see what the big deal is with some things that happen in a locker room. Yeah, it was crude, but no worse than what happens in other locker rooms without men present.

Thanks for responding though.

Big Phil
07-14-2005, 06:52 PM
Just made me remember something from about 2-3 years back. I was watching an episode of Off the Record and Darryl Sittler was on there and they were debating whether or not female reporters should go into a male dressing room after a game. Sittler was against the idea and he was debating with some broad who thought it was perfectly normal. But hey what does Sittler know eh? I mean the guy only played 15 years in the NHL I guess he never had been in a situation like that before. ;)

Personally I think this mother is very negligent to think of letting her daughter do this. Probabl borderline trailer park trash if she thinks this is normal. But hey pathetic way parents raise their kids nowadays nothing surprises me anymore.

My question is where is the father in all of this? What would be his input? It doesnt mention him. If he's around then I think he's even stupider if he approves of this.

Vincent_TheGreat
07-14-2005, 09:22 PM
In my beer league, there were two women on my team and we all changed in the same lockerroom, it's really not a big deal AT ALL.

yeah and how old are you guys and gals! We are talking about kids, its inappropriate any way you try and slice it!

nic29+
07-14-2005, 09:28 PM
There are girls on my sons team that change in the same dressing room but these kids are 8. Sometimes there isn't enough dressing rooms to allow for the girls to go somewhere else.


But it could cause lots of problems.

Mxpunk
07-14-2005, 11:03 PM
Well, sort of. (Read on)

I just want to point out that a lot of this is happening in the NHL. Sort of. Female reporters and journalists are allowed in dressing rooms, where players are just coming from the shower and barely dressed. (Remember that video a while ago of some guy being interviewed while his teammate was showering naked in the background?) I know it's not the same thing because journalists aren't getting naked, but it's still equally as embarrassing for the girls because these are, after all, bucknaked athletes.
Well, I think it has been stated already in this post, but it is different when children are involved. It is PRESUMED that male athletes will handle themselves accordingly when a reporter is present.

However, things are very different with kids, especially children who may be immature...I just think it is SAFER to have separate locker rooms...True, the problematic incidents may be low, but it is better to be safe than sorry.

And seriously...Female readers...Would you want your 14-year old daughter to change in a room with 18-19 boys while she is developing? Sure, you may be fine with yourself changing with men who are friends in rec leagues, but what about your daughter?

KOVALEV10*
07-14-2005, 11:42 PM
Just made me remember something from about 2-3 years back. I was watching an episode of Off the Record and Darryl Sittler was on there and they were debating whether or not female reporters should go into a male dressing room after a game. Sittler was against the idea and he was debating with some broad who thought it was perfectly normal. But hey what does Sittler know eh? I mean the guy only played 15 years in the NHL I guess he never had been in a situation like that before. ;)

Personally I think this mother is very negligent to think of letting her daughter do this. Probabl borderline trailer park trash if she thinks this is normal. But hey pathetic way parents raise their kids nowadays nothing surprises me anymore.

My question is where is the father in all of this? What would be his input? It doesnt mention him. If he's around then I think he's even stupider if he approves of this.

If he's around then I think the father is one of those guys who isn't tough. His wife controls him and he has to agree on everything his wife tells him.

Chilly Willy*
07-15-2005, 02:55 AM
This is soo stupid, yes let her shower naked with boys that are just starting to get interested in girls (damn they are starting early, horny lil devils).

This mom is just dumb, yeah ok you miss the whole team atmosphere when your all in the locker-room but after the game, when its time to hit the showers, girl should have her own stall or her own dressing room, we are perverts from boys to men, i am sure some 'randy' little kid will be tempted to peep then the mom is going to start a harassment lawsuit or some BS.

People fight over the dumbest things.

The Nemesis
07-15-2005, 03:18 AM
I'm all for equal rights, and I don't have any probelms with girls playing in the boys league. This whole issue is sticky though, because of the age. These kids are 14. By that time, many kids will be going through puberty, and hormones will hit them like the proverbial ton of bricks. Now I'm not suggesting that this will lead to some sort of insane sex orgy with the 3 girls (as the story indicates there are) and a ton of boys. Far from it. But the saying "boys will be boys" was made for a reason.

I'm sure there are plenty of girls and women out there who have dressed in the same room as the guys on their teams, and never had an incident. Heck, there might even be teams that don't require the dress code or that the minory gender not be present when players are showering, but the fact is that all it takes is one little incident and the whole thing goes up like a lit match in a pool of gasoline. One kid just needs to accidentally circumvent the dress code, or do something inappropriate.

What if after a while, taking the time to do separate showers becomes cumbersome, so the coach simply erects a barrier in the showers so that the girls have one side and the boys have another. All that has to happen is that one of those hormone driven boys sneaks a peek across the barrier and we have a sexual harassment lawsuit on our hands.

Yeah, I might just be arguing the slippery slope, but the point stands that I don't think it's a good idea for that age group. maybe when they're younger and don't care, or older and mature enough to deal with it, but the early teens are the absolute worst age group to be risking anything happening. Why do you think I didn't have co-ed PE classes in grades 8 and 9 only?

Chilly Willy*
07-15-2005, 04:03 AM
I'm all for equal rights, and I don't have any probelms with girls playing in the boys league. This whole issue is sticky though, because of the age. These kids are 14. By that time, many kids will be going through puberty, and hormones will hit them like the proverbial ton of bricks. Now I'm not suggesting that this will lead to some sort of insane sex orgy with the 3 girls (as the story indicates there are) and a ton of boys. Far from it. But the saying "boys will be boys" was made for a reason.

I'm sure there are plenty of girls and women out there who have dressed in the same room as the guys on their teams, and never had an incident. Heck, there might even be teams that don't require the dress code or that the minory gender not be present when players are showering, but the fact is that all it takes is one little incident and the whole thing goes up like a lit match in a pool of gasoline. One kid just needs to accidentally circumvent the dress code, or do something inappropriate.

What if after a while, taking the time to do separate showers becomes cumbersome, so the coach simply erects a barrier in the showers so that the girls have one side and the boys have another. All that has to happen is that one of those hormone driven boys sneaks a peek across the barrier and we have a sexual harassment lawsuit on our hands.

Yeah, I might just be arguing the slippery slope, but the point stands that I don't think it's a good idea for that age group. maybe when they're younger and don't care, or older and mature enough to deal with it, but the early teens are the absolute worst age group to be risking anything happening. Why do you think I didn't have co-ed PE classes in grades 8 and 9 only?


That's what i am talking about, boys will be boys...then what are you going to have? Boys walking around turned on and naked girls on the other side, i'm not saying boys are perverts...but there was that 18yr old horny kid in the states that mounted a dog.

You just can't do this, there are too many factors to take under consideration, what happens when a girl is on her period and there is blood on the shower floor, guys will be like wtf and grossed out seeing all that.

People were complaining about teenage pregnancies...well this won't help, have 1 stud player that wants action and a girl that is willing...things go wrong after that.

canadahockeygirl*
07-15-2005, 06:53 AM
I was looking at it from a changing, not showering point of view. That puts a different twist on it. The entire time I was in a locker room with guys, I would only shower after a game if I had to (if I was going to another sport), and it was understood by players and coaches that I went in alone and then they went in, or vice versa. The line was drawn at changing, as it should be. Once a guy tried to peek in, and he got Ben Gay in his cup and never tried that again. I can see where the concern for the daughter is if there's showering involved. But do a lot of kids playing rec hockey in their early teens shower out where you guys are? It wasn't until at least HS that the guys I know started showering after games.

My father was never thrilled with the idea of me playing hockey, never mind changing, with boys. But he realized that it was my only option aside from pond hockey (I was 15 when the first girls travel team came to my area) and let me do it hesitantly. Growing up, he was the one that said "no getting stark naked, don't take anything personally, you're putting yourself on the line and you should know how to handle yourself in there".

As far as my daughter playing/changing in a guys locker room, if it was truly what she wanted, I would let her and hope my husband would say the same. However, she would most likely have plenty of girls hockey options around her so I would steer her that way once she reached a certain age.

canadahockeygirl*
07-15-2005, 07:00 AM
You just can't do this, there are too many factors to take under consideration, what happens when a girl is on her period and there is blood on the shower floor, guys will be like wtf and grossed out seeing all that.

Earmuffs, sensitive men and women with light stomachs.

It's called tampons, and the blood doesn't just sit on the floor if one isn't in. It goes down the drain with the rest of the water, and is for the most part unnoticeable. You don't bleed like a mass murder just occurred between your legs.

People were complaining about teenage pregnancies...well this won't help, have 1 stud player that wants action and a girl that is willing...things go wrong after that.

I don't see this as being restricted to the LOCKER ROOM. It's just as much a threat off the ice even if the girl has her own locker room. One stud player will get his tail regardless of location if the chick is willing.

Poignant Discussion
07-15-2005, 07:27 AM
I thought we had seperate bathrooms so I wouldn't have to smell/listen to some girl taking a nasty dump, which would cause me to be unable to ever have sex with her.

Yes thats exactly the reason we have seperate bathrooms :shakehead

You know once upon a time we actually could discuss things on this board, without the stupid comments.

I wished that board would come back :confused:

LaLaLaprise
07-15-2005, 09:00 AM
Yes thats exactly the reason we have seperate bathrooms :shakehead

You know once upon a time we actually could discuss things on this board, without the stupid comments.

I wished that board would come back :confused:

Just ignore the stupid comments. There are 8 pages and maybe 3 stupid comments.

CornKicker
07-15-2005, 09:27 AM
I thought we had seperate bathrooms so I wouldn't have to smell/listen to some girl taking a nasty dump, which would cause me to be unable to ever have sex with her.

Probably the funniest post i've ever read :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

canadahockeygirl*
07-15-2005, 10:40 AM
Just ignore the stupid comments. There are 8 pages and maybe 3 stupid comments.
I think it's because the lounge is shut down and people need to get their kicks somewhere.

jacklours
07-15-2005, 11:29 AM
I played with a girl since I was 5. i'm actually 20. A few years we had 2 girls in the team. The girls always use to go in the bathroom whenever they were ready to change (underwear, t-shirts) then get dressed in the locker room with everyone. Around 12-13-14 we start getting interested by girl pretty much everyone is too shy to how their tiny weiners, so no one does anything disgraceful. Also it was always understood and accepted that the girls took the shower before us and without us. Whenever a new player would try some spying into the shower, he'd get **** on by all of us because we all had respect fpr these girls. So nothing happened ever with these girls in the l;ocker room

AlienWorkShop
07-15-2005, 01:36 PM
From my experience, in the dressing room I've heard the most obscene things of my life from my teammates (never had a female teammate before) Now I don't think the problem is a girl being insulted by this stuff, I'd think girls would expect it, but I know that my teammates would never want a girl hearing what they talk about.

i.e. one of my teammates last year did something rather disgusting, and we all said "dude you always complaining about not getting chicks, well that's the reason why" his response was "what happens in the dressing room stays in the dressing room"

Sideline
07-15-2005, 02:26 PM
Legally the girlís rights are being infringed upon. Culturally 15 minutes before the game is enough for me.

Moon Man*
07-15-2005, 02:35 PM
From my experience, in the dressing room I've heard the most obscene things of my life from my teammates (never had a female teammate before) Now I don't think the problem is a girl being insulted by this stuff, I'd think girls would expect it, but I know that my teammates would never want a girl hearing what they talk about.

That was my first thought as well. Even at that age, the girl could be easy going, not be fazed by anything and be able to handle herself fine, but there might be more than a few guys who might be uncomfortable with a girl in the room.

I think it's because the lounge is shut down and people need to get their kicks somewhere.

It's a scary sight seeing Predsfan77 unleashed upon the rest of the board. :eek:

LaLaLaprise
07-15-2005, 02:41 PM
Legally the girlís rights are being infringed upon. Culturally 15 minutes before the game is enough for me.

How are her rights being infringed upon?

Can someone sue to be able to use the other sex's restrooms? Because if so a bunch of guys would be filing class action law suits.

mydnyte
07-15-2005, 02:51 PM
Legally the girlís rights are being infringed upon. Culturally 15 minutes before the game is enough for me.

...and what, don't the boys have a right to privacy? ...this dual standard really gets me mad.

canadahockeygirl*
07-15-2005, 04:05 PM
How are her rights being infringed upon?

Can someone sue to be able to use the other sex's restrooms? Because if so a bunch of guys would be filing class action law suits.
There was a lawsuit out here once about a T restroom for transvestites...

Fedz
07-15-2005, 06:40 PM
For a 14 year old girl she's extremely pretty too. If I was a bit younger, and on her team I'd love it for her to change, and that's exactly why I think it shouldn't happen.

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/gfx/Vancouver/photos/050711_dressingrmgrl.jpg

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/gfx/Vancouver/photos/050711_dresemlyn1.jpg

Chilly Willy*
07-15-2005, 08:55 PM
For a 14 year old girl she's extremely pretty too. If I was a bit younger, and on her team I'd love it for her to change, and that's exactly why I think it shouldn't happen.

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/gfx/Vancouver/photos/050711_dressingrmgrl.jpg

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/gfx/Vancouver/photos/050711_dresemlyn1.jpg


Maybe the girl is a pervert, she wants to see naked boys.


If they change it there, whats next? Co-ed changing rooms in highschool for PE? If they say yes to this, then they have to say yes to that, no difference.

Chilly Willy*
07-15-2005, 08:59 PM
How are her rights being infringed upon?

Can someone sue to be able to use the other sex's restrooms? Because if so a bunch of guys would be filing class action law suits.


Yeah if a girl wants to use the boys changingroom with the boys, next time i want to take a piss, i should be allowed to walk into the girls bathroom with the potpurri in the air and have a relaxing piss.

It's only fair, girls want to start this stupid game, lets play.

First the equal workplace thing, that is something that was worth fighting for, for the women, then there was the army stuff, another good fight, but now its just turning stupid. What do you want to complain about next? Can't say Mankind anymore?

Don't want to be called Women because it has men, so u want a new term?

Don't like the flap guys have in their boxer's and underwear so you want to sue for that too cuz its unfair when u want to wear them?

If the girl wants to change in the same room as boys then you know what, screw stalls and everything else let her change infront of themselves just how the guys do, let her stand there in her panties and bra and everything, she wants to be fair, lets be fair, u do what the boys do, no exceptions no extra mile to make your sorry ***** happy.

Girls had that extra mile with a whole dressing room to themselves, now they want to share and still have that same privacy...nope, u want to share, u share the same damn way guys do.


:p: :p: :p: :p:

canadahockeygirl*
07-15-2005, 10:20 PM
Looks like someone needs to get laid so he's not as cranky in the morning! :)

grapeshine
07-16-2005, 02:31 AM
Note to board: a dressing room full of 14-year-olds isn't exactly a hot bed of lewdness and cruelty, but for the simple fact that there's typically at least two coaches in the room at all times. I think a lot of you are selling 14-year-old boys a little short: most of them understand the difference between right and wrong, more-so than some of the people who posted in this thread.

Chilly Willy*
07-16-2005, 03:46 AM
Looks like someone needs to get laid so he's not as cranky in the morning! :)


That's all you have to say?

They want to be fair, lets be fair, change infront of everyone like the boys do, get no special treatment.

canadahockeygirl*
07-16-2005, 06:51 AM
That's all you have to say?

They want to be fair, lets be fair, change infront of everyone like the boys do, get no special treatment.
Well, if you'd really like to know what I'm thinking, I think you're acting very childish and making obtuse arguments that have nothing to do with the case at hand, which is why I refused to reply intelligently to it. The road goes both ways. If you want to hear something good in response to something you've posted, it needs to start with you. Not this BS diatribe on feminism.

You're reaching so far out into left field that I think you've gone over the fence, and quite honestly, the argument was very unintelligible. So are you anti-womens rights, or anti-locker room for chicks?

Chilly Willy*
07-16-2005, 10:07 AM
Well, if you'd really like to know what I'm thinking, I think you're acting very childish and making obtuse arguments that have nothing to do with the case at hand, which is why I refused to reply intelligently to it. The road goes both ways. If you want to hear something good in response to something you've posted, it needs to start with you. Not this BS diatribe on feminism.

You're reaching so far out into left field that I think you've gone over the fence, and quite honestly, the argument was very unintelligible. So are you anti-womens rights, or anti-locker room for chicks?


So saying someone needs to get laid is not a childish remark?

C'mon now, you call me childish but you say something that is pretty pathetic and childish?

The fact is, the mom wants her daughter to share a dressingroom with boys, if she wants that then so be it, but the girl should not get any special treatment.

She was getting her special treatment with her own dressingroom now she wants to be with the boys in the same room, so get comfortable and change infront of them, they should not modify the dressingrooms to make it co-ed, keep it the way it has been for years.

Fair is fair.

LaLaLaprise
07-16-2005, 10:29 AM
Note to board: a dressing room full of 14-year-olds isn't exactly a hot bed of lewdness and cruelty, but for the simple fact that there's typically at least two coaches in the room at all times. I think a lot of you are selling 14-year-old boys a little short: most of them understand the difference between right and wrong, more-so than some of the people who posted in this thread.

All it takes is 1 kid. Im sure most of the 14 year old kids playing hockey are good kids but like i said, 1 kid ruins it for everyone. And im not sure but i wouldnt want to take that chance.

Sideline
07-16-2005, 11:55 AM
How are her rights being infringed upon?

Can someone sue to be able to use the other sex's restrooms? Because if so a bunch of guys would be filing class action law suits.

We have equality written into the charter. The same legal argument for gay marriage is the argument that will be used here: separate, but equal is not equal. Iím not a constitutional expert by any means so I canít speak to weather a privacy right trumps an equality right, I guess it would depend on the judge. This is one of those lovely cases where lawyers make lots of money.

LaLaLaprise
07-16-2005, 02:08 PM
We have equality written into the charter. The same legal argument for gay marriage is the argument that will be used here: separate, but equal is not equal. Iím not a constitutional expert by any means so I canít speak to weather a privacy right trumps an equality right, I guess it would depend on the judge. This is one of those lovely cases where lawyers make lots of money.

Im not saying it cant be challenged but how are HER rights being infringed upon? What about the guys who dont want a chick seeing them change? What about their rights?

Like I said if the shoe was on the other foot people would be saying the 20 girls rights are being infringed upon and NOT the single male who wants to change with the girls.

billberg
07-16-2005, 08:43 PM
So what happens when there are two girls on the team and one wants in the changeroom while the other one doesn't? This creates a pressure situation which forces the girl who does not want in to make a choice which results in her being excluded from the team or put in a situation which is uncomfortable. There shouldn't be an option, girls should have to change in a separate room.

The people this mother should be after are the people forcing her daughter to change in bathrooms, boiler rooms, etc.. As stated in above posts, this mother will be the first to slap a lawsuit on one of the kids if they make an off-colour comment or gesture.

Sideline
07-16-2005, 09:41 PM
Im not saying it cant be challenged but how are HER rights being infringed upon? What about the guys who dont want a chick seeing them change? What about their rights?

Like I said if the shoe was on the other foot people would be saying the 20 girls rights are being infringed upon and NOT the single male who wants to change with the girls.
She's not being allowed to use the same facilities as the opposite gender becasue of her gender. I agree with what youíre saying Iím just saying what the law is.

canadahockeygirl*
07-16-2005, 11:17 PM
So saying someone needs to get laid is not a childish remark?

C'mon now, you call me childish but you say something that is pretty pathetic and childish?

The fact is, the mom wants her daughter to share a dressingroom with boys, if she wants that then so be it, but the girl should not get any special treatment.

She was getting her special treatment with her own dressingroom now she wants to be with the boys in the same room, so get comfortable and change infront of them, they should not modify the dressingrooms to make it co-ed, keep it the way it has been for years.

Fair is fair.
Actually tough guy, what I was referring to was the peripheral arguments that you brought up, ie. women's rights, NOT the locker room.

The Nemesis
07-16-2005, 11:45 PM
Lol, I didn't think I would be coming back to this , but I guess the situation warrents some more discussion.

1) Equality means that all things are treated equally. This is not what is happening with this girl and her mother. Equality in this situation would demand that she be treated just like she were one of the boys. No clothing rule, no showering rule, no nothing unless it was in place before hand and is the standard in a locker room that is single gender. What this mother is fighting for is sort of an "equality +1" where she gets her daughter all the same rights as any boy, and then some extra ones to "protect" her. If she really thought locker room equality was a good idea, there should be no need for that protection.

2) I don't think everyone who's made the point of saying that something bad could conceivably happen expects the locker room to be some sort of rampant underage orgy or house of future sex offenders. We all understand that on the whole, 99% of kids are generally well behaved with a good set of moral values. The problem is that 1% that isn't or that indeterminate percentage that let their teenage hormones override their moral judgement. All that needs to happen is 1 kid pulling an inappropriate prank. 1 kid making a particularly obscene remark. 1 kid screwing it up, and then all hell breaks loose.

3) We live in a time where people will sue at the drop of a hat (almost literally. "Man sues restaurant for fallen hat" would not surprise me as a newspaper headline). If the above mentioned 1 kid does something stupid, any number of people could wind up suing. The girls family could sue for harassment. Hell, some lawyer could convince one of the boys' families to sue for the mental anguish of being emasculated by the presence of a girl in that locker room. Yeah, it all sounds ridiculous, but doesn't it sound equally ridiculous to sue a restaurant because you don't have the common sense to realize that the coffee you ordered just mightbe hot if you spill it on your lap? Or that someone might sue because a casino let them gamble away their money? Or that someone might sue another family because they feel that their son was unfairly robbed of their youth hockey MVP award? (btw, these are all real cases). Stupid lawsuits like this will usually go for the big bucks, and since no one family that would likely be involved in this hockey league is going to be filthy rich, it would mean attacking the league itself. If that happens, the league loses a lot of money, and then it might not have enough to continue funding the hockey programs to the depth and breadth that are normal for it. Then everyone loses.

4) As stupid as they all sound, I think the "why can't men use the women's bathrooms" arguments have some grounds. Yes I understand that the locker room includes coaching and team bonding, whereas normal use of a washroom doesn't. But what if I go into a store and need to use the washroom, only to find out that the mens' room is out of order. In these extenuating circumstances, am I allowed to use the ladies' room? Certainly not. I could easily argue that I would see less in a ladies room than this girl will see in the boys' locker room, since all the toilets are in separate stalls (unless women strip down as soon as they enter a washroom http://www.hfboards.com/images/smilies/winky.gif ).

I again want to say that I'm in no way trying to be chauvanistic, nor am I opposing equality or women's rights. If women want to be treated completely and totally equally, by all means go for it. It's just that this particular situation holds a higher than normal degree of probability of something bad happening, and a greater than normal set of consequences. Instances like this just have to trump individual rights. Think about it. What if you knew of a friend who is a visible minorty, but wanted to attend a KKK or similar meeting for some sort of sociology project? Sure they'd be wearing uniforms the whole time and there's a good chance that your friend doesn't get caught, but the possibility exists that he does, and given that possiblity wouldn't you do everything in your power to prevent them from putting themselves into a potentially harmful situation? Of course this is a far more extreme example than the locker room, since the consequences of racial hatred could only possibly be matched in a co-ed hockey locker room by a possible incidence of ****, but the point stands. In both situations, the party involved as every right to make their own decision and to put themselves into this situation, but common sense would probably say that it's not likely to be the most sensible idea.

JacketsFanWest
07-19-2005, 10:36 PM
As a female hockey player who's played on co-ed teams, there's absolutely no way I'd want to go into guys' locker rooms. Besides the smell and the jokes, there is a right to privacy for both genders that needs to be respected. I understand how female hockey players can feel like there are double standards and feel like outsiders on a team, but that doesn't mean sharing a locker room.

Here's a funny story. About 10 years ago at the Ohio State rink there were constant problem with a team of 12-13 year old boys who didn't have locker room space, so they took to changing right out in the middle of the lobby and boys were frequently walking around wearing only jock straps - right in front of young female figure skaters and the OSU Women's hockey team.

Eventually rules were posted that you were banned from the rink if not properly clothed in the lobby. The boys argued that the women's team got to walk around in sports bras, and since they didn't like to wear underwear under their hockey pants and they had to change in the lobby, then they should be permitted to walk around in only their jock straps. It boggles the mind! The strange thing is their moms were all pissed off the rink staff was yelling at them about it.

After dealing with those boys, I won't want my daughter sharing a locker room with them.

grapeshine
07-22-2005, 05:38 AM
This thread evolved into a tome on gender issues, when really the answer is obvious: arenas should have at least one dressing room designated as Womens. I don't see that there's much of a difference between changing for hockey and changing for gym class. I'm sorry that these girls don't get to fully participate in team camaraderie, but it's up to the coaches to come up with creative ways to involve them.

jumptheshark
07-22-2005, 05:56 AM
As a male

I got no problem with females changing in front me

as long as the look like Halle Barry, Christina Ricci or a young Audrey Hepburn

as long as the down mind all the hawling

Holly Gunning
07-22-2005, 08:01 AM
This thread evolved into a tome on gender issues, when really the answer is obvious: arenas should have at least one dressing room designated as Womens. That sounds great. But how are you going to create them, have a federal law that mandates that arenas build such locker rooms? Good luck getting it.

The problem comes about mostly because arenas do not have such facilities. It's a fact of life, the question is what do you do to adapt? Changing in the hallway or tiny ladies rooms is not a solution.

Choice
07-22-2005, 09:48 AM
I played club hockey in college and we had a couple girls on the team. We all used the same lockerroom for the most part and i never had a problem with it. They weren't good looking either, before anyone asks

Thibaj
07-22-2005, 11:48 AM
Sorry, I didn't explain it well, the access to the showers for the room is cut off from the actual other room,the lock is from the inside. This is meant for that situation.



This is not working, you have 4 teams at the same time: 2 on the ice, 2 in the dressing rooms. The 2 teams in the dressing rooms are using the 2 showers at the same time.

Broadway Brett
07-22-2005, 01:35 PM
I think you guys need to get out of the 1950's.

As long as I can remember, I've changed in the same locker rooms with guys. They've always walked around however they wanted, said whatever they've said and it's never been a big deal for me or any other female I know that grew up playing guys hockey OR the guys we've played with. It's no more a liability than if she were to change in a locker room with girls.
I'm a young teenager, and I would not feel comfortable with a girl in the locker room. It would completely change the way everybody acts. And I don't like the idea of a girl looking at me when I'm fully naked, because most teenage girls... Are well... *****... I'm sorry but the way teenagers are today, I would not want to change in front of the opposite sex. Some guys may pass comments about the girl. They will act differently around them. I'm pretty comfortable around girls, in fact, about half of my friends are girls, so it's not like I'm shy around them. But changing in front of them... Well, no. Especially at my age, when the interest about the opposite sex, for both sides, is pretty high. You're only asking for trouble if you put a girl in a guy's locker room.

And also, you're putting the girl in an awkward situation. At my age, not every guy is mature enough to handle being around a girl who is changing right in front of yoi.

OHLArenaGuide
07-22-2005, 02:46 PM
Here's a true story from Massachusetts. A couple of great big boys, football linebackers, decided to stay in shape in the off-season by taking up hockey - field hockey. Girls' field hockey. They tried to join their school's field hockey team, and were disallowed from joining because of being male. So they sued under Title IX and won - no sex discrimination allowed, and if a sport isn't offered in both boys and girls, the minority gender has to be allowed to play. As a result, they were allowed to change with the girls, to be on the field (220-lb boys and 120-lb girls don't mesh well if they hit each other). They caused several injuries in hitting girls and drove a lot of the girls to quit the team.

And what's wrong with this story? Absolutely nothing, if you subscribe to the idea that a 14-year-old girl should be allowed to change in the boys change room.

Either have it both ways or don't have it, but you can't have it one way and not the other.

Holly Gunning
07-22-2005, 02:51 PM
They caused several injuries in hitting girls and drove a lot of the girls to quit the team.

And what's wrong with this story? Absolutely nothing, if you subscribe to the idea that a 14-year-old girl should be allowed to change in the boys change room. Causing injuries and changing in the same locker room are separate problems. Did these guys cause problems in the locker room, or only on the field? Let's not just lump everything together and throw up our hands.

OHLArenaGuide
07-22-2005, 05:53 PM
Causing injuries and changing in the same locker room are separate problems. Did these guys cause problems in the locker room, or only on the field? Let's not just lump everything together and throw up our hands.

Well, let's just say the girls wanted the boys there about as much as the boys in Vancouver want the girl there.

Kritter471
07-22-2005, 10:37 PM
I've been kicked out of locker rooms in Texas. There are women's locker rooms in most of the facilities, but they're tiny don't give a lot of room for my stuff. So I prefer the bigger rooms that are better lit and have access to bathrooms that work all the time and are cleaned more often.

The times it's happened, the guys in there have said "we don't think you'll be comfortable." That's what drives me nuts about the situation - they're not owning up to that it's them that's uncomfortable in the situation, not me. I work in locker rooms. Guys make a much bigger deal out of me having to wear a sports bra than I do out of their habit of wandering around naked.

Moral: if the guy(s) is/are uncomfortable with a girl in the locker room, that's fine. Tell me to go somewhere else, provided there's an actual changing area with a bench and stuff for me to go to (because you try changing in a bathroom stall, sitting on a toilet to put your skates on). But don't try to play it off as me being uncomfortable. Step up and say "look, me/Billy/the team isn't comfortable with you changing with us." and I'll gladly skip on down the hall.

With adult leagues down here, men and women generally share locker rooms to dress and undress, but the women'll drag their bags down to the women's locker room to shower after the game and change back to street clothes. It works out well - that way before the games, you're not sharing a room with the women on the other team, you get to hear all the pre-game oratory and stuff, and you get the immediate de-brief after the game. But you're not making you/the guys uncomfortable by showering next to them.

Kritter471
07-22-2005, 11:26 PM
Well, sort of. (Read on)

I just want to point out that a lot of this is happening in the NHL. Sort of. Female reporters and journalists are allowed in dressing rooms, where players are just coming from the shower and barely dressed. (Remember that video a while ago of some guy being interviewed while his teammate was showering naked in the background?) I know it's not the same thing because journalists aren't getting naked, but it's still equally as embarrassing for the girls because these are, after all, bucknaked athletes.

It's not embarassing at all. I'm a female journalist. I've covered NFL, hockey, soccer and Arena Football teams. It's not something you notice. You keep your eyes up and mind on what you're doing. Some guys give interviews naked, and, being 5'3", I'm right at the front of the media pack around him. But it's no big deal. They don't care, it's obviously not sexual, so why would it bother me?

Male journalists go into female dressing rooms. I think that was on an episode of Everybody Loves Raymond once.

Actually, most female professional teams don't have open locker rooms at all. They have access outside the locker room for all media members (male and female), but generally not an open locker policy.

However, you're correct in that those female teams with an open locker policy do let both male and female journalists in.

Ric Flair
07-23-2005, 12:41 AM
Hell yeah, but only if she's hot.

190Octane
07-23-2005, 02:40 AM
I've never played anywhere where it was common for the whole team to take showers but I've played hockey with girls since I was 12 or so... if no one is getting completely naked than it's not a big deal. I think most girls understand that by going into a hockey locker room, there is going to be language that will be a little dirty or crude.

All of the girls that I've played with just went into the women's restroom to put on their sports bra and shorts and to change after. No big deal.

Some of them were hot too.. but out of respect you don't stare.

QuickDynamite
07-23-2005, 10:26 AM
I said yes, but for all the wrong reasons.

It goes both ways. If a girl is allowed to change in the boys locker room a guy should be able to change in the girls locker room.

Kritter471
07-23-2005, 03:27 PM
I said yes, but for all the wrong reasons.

It goes both ways. If a girl is allowed to change in the boys locker room a guy should be able to change in the girls locker room.
If he's in a similar situation, I wouldn't be against that. The problem with your scenario is, though, it's much more rare for a lone guy to be on a team of girls than it is for a lone girl to be on a team of guys. But if the situation arose, sure he should be allowed in.

It Kills Me
07-23-2005, 03:50 PM
If he's in a similar situation, I wouldn't be against that. The problem with your scenario is, though, it's much more rare for a lone guy to be on a team of girls than it is for a lone girl to be on a team of guys. But if the situation arose, sure he should be allowed in.

They wouldn't let him in. I (and others in the same power skating/hockey drills class as me) had to wait while this girl changed in the changeroom. Her mother wouldn't let us in, we were all late for class and did laps. UNFAIR.

Master Shake
07-23-2005, 04:03 PM
I think you guys need to get out of the 1950's.

As long as I can remember, I've changed in the same locker rooms with guys. They've always walked around however they wanted, said whatever they've said and it's never been a big deal for me or any other female I know that grew up playing guys hockey OR the guys we've played with. It's no more a liability than if she were to change in a locker room with girls.


I say fine but only if guys can change in the womens lockeroom. Especially with the female figure skaters in there.

Kritter471
07-23-2005, 04:34 PM
MS and Skittles, those are differnt situations. You're not teammates with the girl(s) (at least, I'm assuming you weren't, Skittles) so there's a different level here.

I'll change in a locker room full of guys I'm in class with or for a stick-and-puck or drop in session. But if one of them asks me to leave? I'd probably do it, assuming there's another adequate changing area. In a team setting, though, you're missing out on a lot of the things that make a team a team, and I'd probably do what I could to make it easiest on the guys (showering seperately, changing into my shorts and sports bra with my back to the wall or in the bathroom), but I would do that more readily than leave.

And Skittles, you're getting at the part of this - often, it's the parents that cause more problems by wanting isolation of their precious Suzie/Billy while the kids are much more flexible.

OilerNut*
07-25-2005, 01:24 AM
Man when I started this thread, I didn't expect to get all these replies. A sensitive issue I guess. :biglaugh:

Coach Bruce
07-25-2005, 02:42 AM
A couple of years ago we had a girl on our team and she changed for the most part in the locker room, if she or anyone else needed to change to the point of nudity, they would just go the restroom. We all got a long and we all acted basically the same as when she wasn't there. There really isn't that big of an issue as long as everyone can act appropriate and get a long, which they mostly likely have the ability to do.

knittingonskates
07-26-2005, 08:11 PM
I play as the only girl on a district rep under 16 team as the goal keeper, and last year after busting my ass off to get to the state titles I get to the competition and both teams are in the change rooms, getting changed (no one gets naked *shrugs* boxer's sports bra's undies that's all) and acting like we always have. We're teenagers we act stupid but never have they made me feel uncomfortable, generally they have a slight amount of decently. I busted my ass off trainng 4 times a week ( a hell of a lot for a player here in australia) and an offical comes in and says that i'm not allowed in with my team prior to games.

To work that hard and then to be told you are not allowed to be part of your team simply because you're a girl is a tough blow to handle. We were uot classed at that tournament but my mental aspect on the game was totalyl blown.

It's not easy being a girl trying to play the sport here. (inline not ice . ice here? haha) we not only don't have the number's to field a state team in under 17 (5 girls in the state) those that are good enough to play certain mixed division are continously overlooked because of our constant different treatement.

*shrugs* my opinion. but yeah. girls and guys in hockey. will laways be a contentious issues.

GJB
07-27-2005, 11:38 PM
Here's a true story from Massachusetts. A couple of great big boys, football linebackers, decided to stay in shape in the off-season by taking up hockey - field hockey. Girls' field hockey. They tried to join their school's field hockey team, and were disallowed from joining because of being male. So they sued under Title IX and won - no sex discrimination allowed, and if a sport isn't offered in both boys and girls, the minority gender has to be allowed to play. As a result, they were allowed to change with the girls, to be on the field (220-lb boys and 120-lb girls don't mesh well if they hit each other). They caused several injuries in hitting girls and drove a lot of the girls to quit the team.

And what's wrong with this story? Absolutely nothing, if you subscribe to the idea that a 14-year-old girl should be allowed to change in the boys change room.

Either have it both ways or don't have it, but you can't have it one way and not the other.


:handclap:

canadahockeygirl*
07-28-2005, 12:38 AM
Here's a true story from Massachusetts. A couple of great big boys, football linebackers, decided to stay in shape in the off-season by taking up hockey - field hockey. Girls' field hockey. They tried to join their school's field hockey team, and were disallowed from joining because of being male. So they sued under Title IX and won - no sex discrimination allowed, and if a sport isn't offered in both boys and girls, the minority gender has to be allowed to play. As a result, they were allowed to change with the girls, to be on the field (220-lb boys and 120-lb girls don't mesh well if they hit each other). They caused several injuries in hitting girls and drove a lot of the girls to quit the team.

And what's wrong with this story? Absolutely nothing, if you subscribe to the idea that a 14-year-old girl should be allowed to change in the boys change room.

Either have it both ways or don't have it, but you can't have it one way and not the other.
What do I think is wrong with the story? The validity. Field hockey and football in Massachusetts are both fall sports-- one is not the "off-season" for another. Perhaps it was another "M" state? I've been involved with coaching HS field hockey in MA for a few years (this will be my first that I'm not helping coach in some capacity), so you'd think it would come up at a meeting somewhere... Not fully negating it since anything is possible, but I do wonder how valid it is.

My HS in Mass. is somewhat of an exception because it wasn't public, but we let guys play on our team for one season. Most guys don't want to play a prissy girls sport like field hockey, but when the opportunity came up, the administration delivered. We had a few German boys who were VERY good at field hockey and they were able to join up with us until they got their boys' field hockey club up and running. Where they changed was never an issue since my HS had more than adequate facilities for both genders when we were at home. Your team meeting was always on the field, not the locker room. Even on the bus if they had to change, it wasn't an issue. None of the girls on my team ever had an issue with the guys since they knew what they were doing and played as well as (if not better than) we did.

Also, with field hockey, there should not be any outlandish body contact and people getting knocked out or injured UNLESS the coach isn't doing their job by teaching proper skill and technique to these burly boys. It can be a very physical sport (I have the yellow cards to prove it), but in all honesty, there is no reason for injuries like that, especially to their own teammates.

Another point I forgot-- most MA public schools (actually, if any do, it's one or two) do not have their own rinks and have to use state facilities for hockey. For other sports, the school is equipped with a boys locker room and a girls locker room, with their home fields right behind the school and no meeting rooms inside the locker room. There is no real need for a guy to be in a girls' locker room for a sport like field hockey or soccer, especially when all team meetings happen on the field or in a classroom. A hockey locker room is completley different.

berney fkaj
07-28-2005, 09:18 PM
I had girls on my teams before, and what we did was the girl(s) were in before game, then went into a different to do personally stuff, and allow the boys to do personally stuff. And once boys and girls were all dressed properly (fully clothed) they could continue getting dress together...Seams like a lot of work, but the bonding time of a dressing room, and listing to the coach talk, are very important.

Freddie Mercury
08-02-2005, 10:11 AM
As long as she puts on her underclothing in the bathroom and gives us the privacy to put on our own, I wouldn't have a problem.

jcookc6*
08-19-2005, 10:13 AM
as long as she takes a shower too, should be no problem.

Sniper15
08-25-2005, 02:19 PM
Anyone know whatever happened with this in court?

mr gib
08-25-2005, 03:26 PM
http://www.canada.com/ottawa/ottawacitizen/soundoff/story.html?id=2aa28604-33b0-4d73-951f-1e5d56eb62f4

Basically what the story says is that the daughters mother feels as though her daughter should be allowed to be in the same dressing room as the guys.

I think its complete ********, I happen to play rec hockey and after and before the game there are guys walking around the locker room nude, showering, getting changed, etc. How can you feel comfortable doing that when there are girls in there as well?
we have girls on our firemen rec team and they change with us - who freaking cares - it lean's a bit on the tree hugging politcally correct side of the way our lives are going - i'm down with the fact that mom want's girlie to get the whole locker room experience - not sure she's gonna like it when her daughter becomes a filth mouth beer drinking ref bashing goon though