creator of punk

Epoch
09-28-2003, 01:49 PM
the subject came up earlier today, I was arguing with friends about which band in the 70s had created/started punk rock. I say the Ramones did.

I just want to see what everyone in the Lounge thinks!

tom_servo
09-28-2003, 01:51 PM
The Stooges?

Epoch
09-28-2003, 01:53 PM
The Stooges?

I always forget about them.....

Dave is a killer
09-28-2003, 01:55 PM
The Clash, bar none, the only band that mattered!

cybresabre
09-28-2003, 01:57 PM
the man with the slapshot you can hear but cannot see.

radio robert

(well somebody had to say it. :dunno: )

tom_servo
09-28-2003, 02:03 PM
The Clash, bar none, the only band that mattered!

The Clash may have been the best, but the Stooges might've been the first, debuting ten years before the Clash.

wensink
09-28-2003, 02:05 PM
Iggy Pop

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 02:07 PM
Punk started in the 1960s in countless suburban garages with semi-talented teenagers attempting to recreate the sounds of black R&B and British Invasion pop.

The Ramones and Iggy Pop themselves acknowledge groups like the Kingsmen, The Shadows of Knight and the Seeds (as well as many others) as the progenitors of own sound. The term "Punk Rock," as it is currently used, was coined by a British journalist to describe the similar music coming out of London in the mid-seventies.

Frat Rock, Garage Rock, Punk Rock are all the same thing with different haircuts. It's been around as long as three-chord lunkheads picked up an electric guitar.

dempsey_k*
09-28-2003, 02:09 PM
A punk is just a politically aloof and molested version of a beatnik, so I'd say the Beatles, as they may not be beatnik's but the era certainly spawned them.

Allister Crowley maybe ?

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 02:13 PM
A punk is just a politically aloof and molested version of a beatnik, so I'd say the Beatles, as they may not be beatnik's but the era certainly spawned them.

Good point. The Hamburg-era Beatles certainly fit the description before they were spiffed up by Brian Epstein for mass consumption.

Going back even further, a lot of the rougher-edged blues and rockabilly artists would also be argued for inclusion.

Nalyd Psycho
09-28-2003, 02:14 PM
No one in particular.

-The Clash were the best of the 70's punk bands.
-The Ramones were the first to popularize the sound.
-The Sex Pistols had the greatest influence on future punk bands.
-The lesser known bands are the ones who truely invented the sound.

All are important in the sound becoming a legitimate genre.

Mr. T
09-28-2003, 02:14 PM
Green Day

Teemu
09-28-2003, 02:16 PM
Al Gore invented punk.

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 02:19 PM
No one in particular.

-The Clash were the best of the 70's punk bands.
-The Ramones were the first to popularize the sound.
-The Sex Pistols had the greatest influence on future punk bands.
-The lesser known bands are the ones who truely invented the sound.

All are important in the sound becoming a legitimate genre.

The Ramones were never truly "popular" even at the height of their career. I would imagine the Sex Pistols could be called the most "notorious" and probably set the latter-day visual asthetic, but they truly weren't "important." The Clash expanded the sound, and I would argue the genres more popular act.

dempsey_k*
09-28-2003, 02:26 PM
Green Day

:yo:

I like saying Green Day or the Offspring are the best punk bands just to get punk posers or armchair historians off on a tangent.

Jellybean
09-28-2003, 02:29 PM
Radio Robert created Punk!

cybresabre
09-28-2003, 02:31 PM
Radio Robert created Punk!
great minds... (http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?postid=251735#post251735)
or just equally poor senses of humor

monkey_00*
09-28-2003, 02:36 PM
The Mid '60s Bands like the Sonics, The Electric Prunes, and the Mysterians.

Nalyd Psycho
09-28-2003, 03:02 PM
The Ramones were never truly "popular" even at the height of their career. I would imagine the Sex Pistols could be called the most "notorious" and probably set the latter-day visual asthetic, but they truly weren't "important." The Clash expanded the sound, and I would argue the genres more popular act.


While they were not top 40 popular, they were still well known enough that none hardcore music fans knew of them, which is something their predessors cannot claim.

Dr Love
09-28-2003, 03:09 PM
Al Gore invented punk.

This is true.

Of the bands listed, the Ramones came first. They weren't the best, they weren't the most innovative, but they literally came first. But the Stooges came before the Ramones, however some will say they were not truly punk but set the stage. For me either one is an acceptable choice.

Jellybean
09-28-2003, 03:13 PM
great minds... (http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?postid=251735#post251735)
or just equally poor senses of humor

Like you said, it is something that had to be said. Sorry, I missed yours. Once was likely enough for that particular joke.

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 03:29 PM
While they were not top 40 popular, they were still well known enough that none hardcore music fans knew of them, which is something their predessors cannot claim.

LOL! The Kingsmen hit #1 in 1964 with "Louie Louie" and were 1965's top US concert draw according to Cashbox Magazine. They even had a freaking Senate Subcommitee investigating their aledgly obscene lyrics. How many "punk" bands can claim that? The Ramones were still playing with their GI Joes while all this was happening. Radio still had regional hits back in the day and many, many bands with the same sound had very strong followings. Many bigger than the Ramones New York-based audience. The Ramones had to go to England because their album sales had flatlined and concerts weren't drawing flies. It wasn't until AFTER the 1976 British Punk explosion that the Ramones were even noticed.

PK*
09-28-2003, 03:35 PM
Iggy Pop

Dr Love
09-28-2003, 03:38 PM
After further consideration, I'm going to have to change my mind. Like any genre, I don't think you can pinpoint ONE artist or band with starting an entire genre, but you can say "so and so was the first domino" and Iggy Pop/the Stooges were the first domino for punk.

David A. Rainer
09-28-2003, 03:38 PM
It depends upon how you want to look at it. Any of about 50 different bands and eras can lay claim to "creating" punk.

Some pre-punk bands/singers that laid the foundation for punk that have not been mentioned (I agree with a lot that have already been mentioned, but here are a few that have been overlooked):

Velvet Underground (how anyone forgot about this band is beyond me)
New York Dolls
Lou Reed
MC5/Wayne Kramer

Generally, any of the underground art-rock bands that sung about boredom, angst, nihilism, and drug addiction at a time when the only thing available on the radio were songs about love and candy.

tom_servo
09-28-2003, 04:01 PM
VU was more arthouse rock than punk. There's a hardrock edge to punk that VU didn't necessarily have.

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 04:04 PM
Velvet Underground (how anyone forgot about this band is beyond me)

Generally, any of the underground art-rock bands that sung about boredom, angst, nihilism, and drug addiction at a time when the only thing available on the radio were songs about love and candy.

Well, right there you gave away your flawed logic. The Velvet Underground were and are not a punk rock band. They were essentially a pretentious art-rock band more akin to the neo-classical avant-garde movement of composers such as LaMonte Young as opposed to four-chord dischord. They were unique in the area of subject matter later adopted by the alternative rock movement, I'll grant you, but they are by no means a punk band in the common defination of the word.

Nalyd Psycho
09-28-2003, 05:01 PM
I don't know if I'd call Louie Louie a punk song though. It's such a fuzzy line when it comes to genres in music...

barrytrotzsneck
09-28-2003, 05:22 PM
i'm somewhat appalled that only one person has mentioned MC5. They were the same era as bands like the Sonics and the Kinks, but whereas the latter two were more "garage-rock," mc5 created the sound that would mature into what we know as "punk."

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 05:24 PM
I don't know if I'd call Louie Louie a punk song though. It's such a fuzzy line when it comes to genres in music...

Sure it is. Turn a R&B song into a shambolic drunken mess replete with mangled vocals is the ultimate punk act. The Ramones based their whole sound and attitude on songs like Louie Louie.

Every punk band worthy of their ripped jeans covers that very tune.

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 05:30 PM
i'm somewhat appalled that only one person has mentioned MC5. They were the same era as bands like the Sonics and the Kinks, but whereas the latter two were more "garage-rock," mc5 created the sound that would mature into what we know as "punk."

The MC5 came about 5 years after the Sonics and Kinks. The MC5 never figured out what they were. Were they a party band, sonic social revolutionairies, or stripped-down meat-and-potato rockers? They were all over the map stylistically in the course of their three career albums.

Hitman*
09-28-2003, 06:11 PM
Well, as somebody said earlier, the 'idea' of punk could have come from the Beatles, but the punk that we know of today was probably started by some white trash kids who got guitars, drums and a bass on their birthday but didn't bother learning to play. Then the good bands came along.

I voted Sex Pistols because I like them most of the ones on the list. We'll never really know who 'started' it.

David A. Rainer
09-28-2003, 07:16 PM
Well, right there you gave away your flawed logic. The Velvet Underground were and are not a punk rock band. They were essentially a pretentious art-rock band more akin to the neo-classical avant-garde movement of composers such as LaMonte Young as opposed to four-chord dischord. They were unique in the area of subject matter later adopted by the alternative rock movement, I'll grant you, but they are by no means a punk band in the common defination of the word.

Well, if you notice, none of the bands I listed are "punk" bands. I listed "some pre-punk bands/singers that laid the foundation for punk" because the exact creator/origins of punk can never be determined. The best anyone can do is look at all the influences (both musical and otherwise) that aided in the gradual development of what was later termed punk by, say, 1977.

I will never be able to tell you who/what created punk. But I can tell you that of all the books I've read and all the interviews I've seen of the earliest punk bands, they almost unanimously cite Velvet Underground, Iggy Pop, and MC5 as their biggest influences and that if not for those bands, punk may never have existed. They may not have created punk, but they are the closest to an origin that you're going to get. Punk is far more than three chord, one riff songs. Some would argue that punk is more of a philosophy than anything else. And that philosophy was first espoused by early bands like Velvet Underground. But I guess it goes back to my original statement - it depends upon what you want to define punk as, a sound or a statement.

Wild Thing
09-28-2003, 07:33 PM
Jonathan Richman. Anyone here ever heard "The Modern Lovers", recorded in 1976?

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 07:46 PM
it depends upon what you want to define punk as, a sound or a statement.

I define as being both. The sound being a raw reduction of basic rock and roll and the statement that of defiant youth.

I don't care what some egghead poseur scenester wannabe cares to write in a book or a magazine article. What makes his word authoritive? I've always had a problem wrapping my head around the concept of "rock journalism." It's a bunch of hooey. As for the musicians citing influences, nothing wrong with citing a broad range influencing your own work. It just adds a slightly differerent flavour to the same basic sound.

However a real, true punk would just say "shut yer fat gob," break his pencil, boot the critic in the arse and be done with it.

David A. Rainer
09-28-2003, 08:01 PM
I define as being both. The sound being a raw reduction of basic rock and roll and the statement that of defiant youth.

I don't care what some egghead poseur scenester wannabe cares to write in a book or a magazine article. What makes his word authoritive? I've always had a problem wrapping my head around the concept of "rock journalism." It's a bunch of hooey. As for the musicians citing influences, nothing wrong with citing a broad range influencing your own work. It just adds a slightly differerent flavour to the same basic sound.
\

No more authoritative than anyone else, I suppose. But then some of these "egghead poseur scenester wannabe" weren't "journalists" back then - they were just like any other punk in the scene. But then, what makes you or I authoritative on this topic either?

And it's not just an influence. It's the recognition that punk would not exist without those bands.


However a real, true punk would just say "shut yer fat gob" and boot the critic in the arse and be done with it.

Yawn. What the hell is a "real, true punk"? I wouldn't do that.

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 08:12 PM
Yawn. What the hell is a "real, true punk"? I wouldn't do that.

I guess you don't know where the origin of the word "punk" comes from, do you?

I'll fill you in. It was hobo slang during the Great Depression for a homeless adolescent. I'm not going to go further than that on account of board rules, but suffice it to say, it denotes the outcast nature and resultant anger.

Listen to the Bicycle Repairman Song.
I am right. You are wrong.
Realize that and we'll get along.



:teach:

David A. Rainer
09-28-2003, 08:20 PM
I guess you don't know where the origin of the word "punk" comes from, do you?

I'll fill you in. It was hobo slang during the Great Depression for a homeless adolescent. I'm not going to go further than that on account of board rules, but suffice it to say, it denotes the outcast nature and resultant anger.

Listen to the Bicycle Repairman Song.
I am right. You are wrong.
Realize that and we'll get along.

:teach:

Classic! There's nothing like someone trying to give me a lecture on something I've been living my whole life and he doesn't even get it right. The term "punk" is a word of middle english origin used during the 16th century to mean prostitute. The term has evolved over the years to mean many things (including the definition you've given), but it's origin dates to 16th century England.

But I like the song.

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 08:39 PM
Classic! There's nothing like someone trying to give me a lecture on something I've been living my whole life and he doesn't even get it right. The term "punk" is a word of middle english origin used during the 16th century to mean prostitute. The term has evolved over the years to mean many things (including the definition you've given), but it's origin dates to 16th century England.


Once again you are wrong. I'm somewhat of an Etymologist myself and I draw from the American slang origins of the word. I subscribe to the theory that it comes more from the Algonqian word for "worthless" which would tie in with homeless people in the 1930s riding the rails and coming into contact with Native Americans. The Middle English connotation had fallen out of popular usage at least in America at the time.

Yes, as you suggest, it's British word roots could have reestablished itself, but back then, those using the word were for the most part illiterate people. I can't see them as having an obscure word buried in a dusty text back in Ol' Brighty as part of their everyday vocabulary.

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 08:54 PM
There's nothing like someone trying to give me a lecture on something I've been living my whole life

And you were still in diapers when I saw Richard Hell and and the Voidoids perform live.

Guess we'll have to have a Punk-Off.

David A. Rainer
09-28-2003, 09:04 PM
Once again you are wrong. I'm somewhat of an Etymologist myself and I draw from the American slang origins of the word. I subscribe to the theory that it comes more from the Algonqian word for "worthless" which would tie in with homeless people in the 1930s riding the rails and coming into contact with Native Americans. The Middle English connotation had fallen out of popular usage at least in America at the time.

Yes, as you suggest, it's British word roots could have reestablished itself, but back then, those using the word were for the most part illiterate people. I can't see them as having an obscure word buried in a dusty text back in Ol' Brighty as part of their everyday vocabulary.

The term did not fall out of usage and to this day is still a term used in England to mean prostitute. It's not like the term was used in the 16th century and then just disappeared. Further, it's not like the word was "buried" in a dusty text that the only way you'd know about the word is if you read the text (or are you just presuming that it was obscure). The word has been part of the lexicon for both England and America to mean prostitute and has evolved even further to mean a prostitute in prison. Again, as I have said, the word has evolved into many things, but the original word "punk" meant prostitute and has continued, un-interrupted, in the English and American lexicon to mean prostitute. No re-establishment necessary. The term punk meaning hoodlum or ruffian might have come from hobo slang (I can neither affirm nor deny that claim, but I have heard a theory where it doesn't). But the origin of the word itself goes much further back than that.

But I'd like to hear more about the hobo slang theory. Can you recommend something (link, etc.)?

David A. Rainer
09-28-2003, 09:22 PM
I subscribe to the theory that it comes more from the Algonqian word for "worthless"

But I have found a Native American origin of the word punk meaning dried or decayed wood used to start a fire. Is this what you are referring to?

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 09:28 PM
Guess what DFA? You've been Punked. I've challenged your authority for no other reason than "why the hell not" to the point of nonsense. That, in a nutshell, is the Punk Ethos.
:yo: :joker:

David A. Rainer
09-28-2003, 09:34 PM
Guess what DFA? You've been Punked. I've challenged your authority for not other reason than "why the hell not" to the point of nonsense. That, in a nutshell, is the Punk Ethos.
:yo: :joker:

Doh! Is Ashton Kutcher going to pop out of nowhere with a camera crew? :joker:

Bicycle Repairman
09-28-2003, 09:39 PM
Doh! Is Ashton Kutcher going to pop out of nowhere with a camera crew? :joker:

Thanks for taking it in good humour.
:handclap: :bow:

Spiffy
09-28-2003, 11:47 PM
I think that it was some semi-unknown garage band that started it and The Stooges went on and developed it and in the 70's the ramones developed it more and ét voila : A new crap style was developed to it's fullest.

barrytrotzsneck
09-29-2003, 12:08 AM
another early band that should be mentioned is Wire. Fantastic stuff.

nordique
09-29-2003, 04:00 AM
GOOD CHARLOTTE!

C'mon, rock out to the awesome punk lyrics!

(headbanging)

Girls don't like boys girls like cars and money!!!!!
Boys will laugh at girls when they're not funny!!!!!
(LET'S GO!)

barrytrotzsneck
09-29-2003, 05:58 AM
Gosh, you guys are way off.
EVERYONE that's worth their salt knows that RANCID practically INVENTED PUNX RAwK0rz, d00d. They are t0t4LLy 4N4RkY

wolfen
10-01-2003, 11:26 PM
the sounds that punk used were around for years before anyone used them in a punk way. It's really hard to say when punk actually began... it didn't happen all at once...

jiggs 10
10-02-2003, 12:12 PM
the sounds that punk used were around for years before anyone used them in a punk way. It's really hard to say when punk actually began... it didn't happen all at once...

Exactly! As someone stated earlier, it began when some kid picked up an electric guitar and DIDN'T learn how to play!
The MC5 came at about the same time (actually a little before) as Iggy Pop and The Stooges. (And from the same town-Detroit) They laid the groundwork for what became LABELED "punk". The Ramones were the first AMERICAN band to have (limited) success with the format. The Sex Pistols copied everything they ever did from someone, they just did it bigger! And who the h*** thinks the Clash were ever a punk band? HA! They were as new wave as they come! "Rock The Casbah" is punk? "Train In Vain" is punk? Not a chance!

This is kind of like trying to figure out what the first rap song EVER was!

DallasStars2003
10-02-2003, 01:54 PM
The Clash were the msot popular band, but I think most credit out of those three bands would go to the Ramones. But I think also bands like the Kinks should get recognition for evolving the sound.

Ol Dirty Pirate
10-02-2003, 04:43 PM
Crass for me.

Ric Flair
10-02-2003, 04:47 PM
What created punk was the genres of music that came before it. They sucked so bad that people had no choice but to rebel angrily.

tom_servo
10-02-2003, 05:26 PM
What created punk was the genres of music that came before it. They sucked so bad that people had no choice but to rebel angrily.

I know you were half serious, but really, that's true of all genres.

Ric Flair
10-02-2003, 05:32 PM
I know you were half serious, but really, that's true of all genres.

Exactly.

KillToronto
10-03-2003, 02:23 PM
GOOD CHARLOTTE!

C'mon, rock out to the awesome punk lyrics!

(headbanging)

Girls don't like boys girls like cars and money!!!!!
Boys will laugh at girls when they're not funny!!!!!
(LET'S GO!)

LMAO :lol:

That's great. Post of the day.

(Listen to the River City Rebels for good punk/ska, by the way.)

ginner classic
10-03-2003, 02:37 PM
Radio Robert created Punk!

That Ice Capades luvin' pansy did not create it but he sure as hell perfected it.

Darth Milbury
10-03-2003, 03:36 PM
Ignoring, for a moment, some of the bands and songs that probably set the tone for PUNK! (like the Kinks with "You really got me") I see the seminal punk bands as being:

Velvet Underground
New York Dolls
Iggy and the Stooges

Perhaps Moot the Hoople also had a role, and maybe even David Bowie.

Those guys laid the groundwork, and there were a couple of angry singer songwriter types that also had a role, like Graham Parker and the Rumor.

Later, in the Punk scene of the late 70s, with all the bands exploding at CBGB's and other such clubs, the Talking Heads, Ramones, Dead Boys (who remembers them - I followed them up and down the east coast at one point), and believe it or not - Blondie, were all cutting edge punk. There were some other influential bands at the time, like the Damned and Cramps and Henry Rollins (what the hell was the name of his band again?).

Of course, after that, Blondie went off in a pop direct, Talking Heads (along with Bowie and Bryan Ferry) moved in a new wave direction (influenced, perhaps, by the glam rock of the New York Dolls). The Ramones continued to be a factor in music for decades after that, and the Dead Boys became the Lords of the New Church until Stiv Bators met with his untimely demise. Meanwhile, Iggy Stooge became Iggy Pop and then disappeared for some time in an acid-induced haze.

Punk then suffered a decline, becoming relegated to second rate acts that were sometime commercially viable, but ultimately not very talented (like the Dead Milkmen). Then, a few punk-influenced bands became commercially viable. The first one was probably the Clash and then the Cult (who were really more new wave than Punk), and then eventually Blink 182 and guys like that. I think the grunge rock movement helped put Punk! back on the map.

Meanwhile, a very young Darth was receiving multiple wounds in slam dancing incidents up and down the east coast. The final one occurring halloween night at the Ritz. The Dead Boys were touring in support of "Young, Loud and Snotty" and I got knocked into a near unconscious state when a studded boot hit me in the head.

Aaah..... good times.....