Should they stay or should they go?

john g
09-29-2003, 03:00 AM
Based on most of the pre-season being done, who stays up and who goes (based on the the roster following the last 8 cuts) ....

Stays IMO
F1 Matt Bradley
F2 Aleksey Morozov
F3 Matt Murley
F4 Rico Fata
F5 Konstantin Koltsov
F6 Mario Lemieux
F7 Martin Straka
F8 Brian Holzinger
F9 Mike Eastwood
F10 Steve McKenna
F11 Milan Kraft
F12 Kris Beech
F13 Kelly Buchberger

D1 Marc Bergevin
D2 Dick Tarnstrom
D3 Drake Berehowsky
D4 Patrick Boileau
D5 Brooks Orpik
D6 Dan Focht
D7 Josef Melichar (IR)
D8 Michal Rosival (IR)

G1 Sebastien Caron
G2 JS Aubin

Goes (IMO)
Tom Kostopoulos
Reid Simpson
Ramzi Abid
Colby Armstrong
Ryan Malone
Eric Meloche
David Koci
Marc-Andre Fleury
Andy Chiodo
Ross Lupaschuk
Rob Scuderi

First I dont see MAF making it. The money he deserves being the #1 pick, is issue number one. If they dont lose Aubin in the Waiver draft, having three signed goalies is issue #2. And personally I don't believe he is ready to assume #1 duties, maybe if Aubin gets selected, sign him and play him 30 games.

I think Beech and Kraft make it over Abid. Based on the 3 games I listened to on the 'net, Beech and Kraft actually contributed (more than just on the scoreboard) while Abid in my non-viewing eyes seemed to be invisible except boarding someone. Waiver material for Abid I think, unless Holzinger gets sent down. KK and Murley are the only skaters that could pass through waivers undetected and they both outplayed him by a mile, as did Armstrong and Malone.

I choose 13 forwards, 6 d, 2 ir and 2, goalies, which I think will probably be the way it goes with McKenna the swing man, supposedly being able to play forward and defense, I have yet to see either (and I saw him play at Merrimack College, way back when)

Hopefully we lose Aubin and Eastwood or Buchberger in the Waiver Draft. Aubin makes too much to play back-up and again I think KB and ME are useless, much the same as the day the Pens signed them. TK could play there role easily, veteran leadership, grit, faceoffs blah blah blah

my 3 cents

Der Schweinehund
09-29-2003, 03:43 AM
Waiver material for Abid I think

He's not eligible for the waiver draft and even so, he is on a two-way contract. His destination is the minors - not someone else, unless it is a trade.

Hopefully we lose Aubin and Eastwood or Buchberger in the Waiver Draft. Aubin makes too much to play back-up and again I think KB and ME are useless, much the same as the day the Pens signed them.

I really don't believe we signed Eastwood and Buchberger to lose them. It's not like this team is long-in-the-tooth anyhow - some veterans will be good for the team. I thought that both were playing quite well anyhow.

Additionally, we don't have to expose anyone - we have more than enough space to protect everyone, and still have change left over. The only reason, in my mind, to expose Aubin is to hope he clears so that you can send him to the minors if you need to. But then that brings up the issue though that you are now carrying three goalies in WBS - one of them making NHL money (Aubin is about $750K - correct?).

The Tang
09-29-2003, 04:58 AM
i dont agree totally that list.

abid does have to clear waivers from what i understand, and you can bet he will be taken. so i think he'll be staying up here. also, i think malone will stay up, with the possibility of holzinger or kraft being traded/put on waivers.

as fro defense, i think they will use either scuderi or lupo as a replacement for melichar/roszival with bergevin taking the other spot.

if the pens sign fleury, they will probably evaluate him after 8 games, and if by hte 10th game he isnt doing well, they send him back. if he does do well, they will probably buy out aubin, or try hard to trade him (package him and somone else for something lesser).

Koltsov71
09-29-2003, 05:30 AM
I'd like to see these thirteen forwards stay: Mario Lemieux, Martin Straka, Aleksey Morozov, Konstantin Koltsov, Mike Eastwood, Kelly Buchberger, Rico Fata, Matt Bradley, Steve McKenna, Kris Beech, Matt Murley, Ramzi Abid, Brian Holzinger.

Lemieux - Straka - Koltsov
Abid - Beech - Morozov
Murley - Fata - Bradley
McKenna - Eastwood - Buchberger

Healthy Scratch: Holzinger

Something to that effect. Would like to see one of Malone or Armstrong make the team, but where?

Assuming Melichar and Rozsival are ready to go on opening night: Dick Tarnstrom, Drake Berehowsky, Marc Bergevin, Brooks Orpik, Michal Rozsival, Josef Melichar, Ross Lupaschuk.

Tarnstrom - Berehowsky
Orpik - Rozsival
Melichar - Lupaschuk

Healthy Scratch: Bergevin

Caron and Aubin in net.

I'm sure this will all be voided with today's cuts.. But, just my thoughts.

john g
09-29-2003, 05:45 AM
it just amazes me that for a team that so driven by its claim that $$$$ and survival that they get themselves in these predictaments, is it ironic or bad decision making (my vote)?

1. Sign Fluery or Not? Should they based on his talent? Probably. Should they faced with the fact that they have two pro paid goalies? Nope.

2. Sign players who will have little impact on a playoff run. Buchberger, Eastwood and Berehowsky come to mind (simpson too but he better be off to WB where there is no money loss really). This guys are so margainal, are they really going to make a difference? I dont think so. Veteran leadership, some margainal skill in a specific scenario that happens once every 30 minutes is game, it is BS to me.

3a. Keep players that have no value expect wasting money. Holzinger, McKenna, Meloche. In my opinion these three have no use, and hopefully Meloche is already ticketed to WB so he cant do to much damage.

3b. Try to trade or send through waivers, Beech, Kraft, Abid? All have been touted, traded for better players and if they try and get passed through waivers none of them will make it. So the quesiton is, why keep the slighty usefull, mostly useless scrap heap (KB, EM, ME, SM, DB, BH) and lose your youth.

Basically in my opinion the team is in for a long season, so why try and squeak out a few more wins with useless veterans that will be gone soon. How about, still miss the playoffs, save face by using the players they drafted/traded, save a little money and build for the future. I am a pessimist anyways but I would rather see the Pens finish last with the youth rather than finish second to last with the crap.

I cant wait for the season to start now, after we use a potential useful player to waivers or a trade and we keep the aforementioned garbage!

Evilo
09-29-2003, 05:50 AM
I like your list Aki except I fear Abid will take over Murley's spot, simply because he has to go through waivers, which means he'll have his chance before Murley (same with Kraft).

Koltsov71
09-29-2003, 05:56 AM
1. Sign Fluery or Not? Should they based on his talent? Probably. Should they faced with the fact that they have two pro paid goalies? Nope.

I can't make out what you are trying to say.

2. Sign players who will have little impact on a playoff run. Buchberger, Eastwood and Berehowsky come to mind (simpson too but he better be off to WB where there is no money loss really). This guys are so margainal, are they really going to make a difference? I dont think so. Veteran leadership, some margainal skill in a specific scenario that happens once every 30 minutes is game, it is BS to me.

I really think you are undervaluing these guys.

3a. Keep players that have no value expect wasting money. Holzinger, McKenna, Meloche. In my opinion these three have no use, and hopefully Meloche is already ticketed to WB so he cant do to much damage.

Well, unless you want to see Martin Straka (attempt to) ward off the likes of Brashear, Peters, Godard, etc, McKenna has plenty of value to the team. He might not be the best fighter, but he is usually willing. Holzinger.. I'm in between on him. I'd like to see him in the AHL. He's not costing us that much money, Tampa Bay is paying half of his contract. Eric Meloche.. I'd really like him as a 4th line guy, but we have enough of those as is. I don't really see a spot for him on the team unless we carry two extra forwards.

3b. Try to trade or send through waivers, Beech, Kraft, Abid? All have been touted, traded for better players and if they try and get passed through waivers none of them will make it. So the quesiton is, why keep the slighty usefull, mostly useless scrap heap (KB, EM, ME, SM, DB, BH) and lose your youth.

If someone wants Milan Kraft, they can take him.

Basically in my opinion the team is in for a long season, so why try and squeak out a few more wins with useless veterans that will be gone soon. How about, still miss the playoffs, save face by using the players they drafted/traded, save a little money and build for the future. I am a pessimist anyways but I would rather see the Pens finish last with the youth rather than finish second to last with the crap.

I don't even know where to begin.

john g
09-29-2003, 06:12 AM
What I was attempting to say about Fleury ( it was worded pretty poorly I admit) is that why would a financially strapped team load themselves down with more salary?

Sign Fleury only if Aubin is gone. Dont sign Fleury and pray that someone will take Aubin in the waiver draft or a trade. JS has proven nothing that would warrant interest in him.

Koltsov71
09-29-2003, 06:19 AM
What I was attempting to say about Fleury ( it was worded pretty poorly I admit) is that why would a financially strapped team load themselves down with more salary?

What would you prefer we do? Trade away our 1st round pick every year? We are going to have to pay him a alot no matter when we sign him.

john g
09-29-2003, 06:36 AM
Signing him yes, but dont whine about the money when you are paying for 3 pro goalie contracts. If they sign him before JS or Caron is gone, the management is a) lying about their money situation b) they are dumb

I would vote for b)

We dont lose Fleury by not signing him this season, so why waste the money if we dont have to. He is not the savior at the moment that is going to take a potentially last place team to a playoff contender.

The Tang
09-29-2003, 06:43 AM
i have to say, to say veteran leadership is bs, well, is bs. how many coaches and players have said that it is important to have veteran presence on rebuilding teams? i dont think you would find one person in the nhl that would agree with you on that.

you have a bunch of kids on teh ice, to send them out there with little or no guidence is like a chicken running around with its head cutoff.

McKenna- he' big, he's hard to move from the front of the net. he's a joker and lightens the locker room mood, plus ive been reading he has been very encouraging to the younger players. he isnt afraid of anyone and will fight.

Buchberger- he's been an nhl captain on no less than two teams, and his been an alternate more than that. he'll drop the gloves with anyone, is a hard worker, plus had a good showing in camp.

Eastwood- once again the veteran. not as good a leader as buchberger, but he is a faceoff specialist, somethign teh Pens need, especially since we traded Hrdina. he'll be used on draws in our own end on the pk.

Berehowsky- he's a right handed d-man that can shoot, hits and fights. in otehr wordds, exactly what the pens were looking for this summer. he's by far better than the likes of moran, pushor and jonsson that were here last year. he's onl 31, so he's not that old. plus, you dont want too many rookie d-men out there. focht is still somewhat new to the nhl, and orpik will need guidence also. lupo probably would benefit from a little more time in the minors, though if tarnstrom goes down, he will be the likely replacement.

you cant throw a bunch of kids out there and tell them to play their heart out and then leave them go. they need to be given tips and advice, not to mention encouragment. imagine going into school, the principal saying "ok kids, you want to leanr, it will be good for your future. have fun and work hard!" only one problem: ther is no teacher. the learning process will be much slower that with a teacher.

these guys are far from useless.

john g
09-29-2003, 06:51 AM
true about the advice

it is a good thing that those stiffs are around as mario, marty, bergevin dont have anything to add

opinions being what they are, I still stand by dispising my aforementioned list -- I just forsee this being a pattern and the team will be same year after year, without developing youth, and then it will move

The Tang
09-29-2003, 07:00 AM
you're acting as if these guys are going to be around forever. i doubt bergevin/eastwood/holzinger/buchberger will be here beyond this year, and if we're out of the playoff race, i think you can expect some of them to be traded. also, bergevin more than likely wont be playing every game. also, i personally would rather have defensive and back checking advice from buchberger than Mario, and vice versa for offense. people know different parts fo the game better.

Mario is the greatest ever, but has never really been known for his D. its hard to teach greatness to others.

straka bases his game on speed, its going to be hard for him to relate to Abid's slow grinding game.

people play differently, plus, how would Mario feel about getting mobbed for advice from 10 guys all the time? more veterans= more advice, and more one on one relationships/mentorings.

Koltsov71
09-29-2003, 07:00 AM
We dont lose Fleury by not signing him this season.

There was an article in the Post-Gazette awhile back saying that we very well might lose him if he isn't signed by the coming deadline.

I'm not 100% up to speed on that situation, but it did startle me when I read it.

look out for orpik
09-29-2003, 07:08 AM
I think Beech and Kraft make it over Abid. Based on the 3 games I listened to on the 'net, Beech and Kraft actually contributed (more than just on the scoreboard) while Abid in my non-viewing eyes seemed to be invisible except boarding someone. Waiver material for Abid I think, unless Holzinger gets sent down.


what i dont understand is why people will not give abid a chance. he only played 3 games for us last year and he was hurt. everyone will give kraft 5 years to try and prove himself (which btw he hasnt at all) and just because he isnt scoring goals left and right, people think we should get rid of him. i agree with raider, if he is put in the waiver draft he definetly will be taken and that is something that we cant let happen. i just hope CP and Ezdo make the right descision and keep him :dunno:

john g
09-29-2003, 07:11 AM
i realize they wont be around forever, but keep more this season means losing a youngster.....next year maybe the same. so keep Holzinger, lose kraft, next year sign some one else, lose Surovy etc.....

i have seen nothing in the past years that shows the Pens ability to groom youth, so why not let them show what they can or cant do - i am a believer that if thrown to the wolves, the true self will show up. i would like to see the players fail rather than making the management decide that

granted it is all opinionated, as we were all that hockey saavy we would probably be working within its industry :p

davemess
09-29-2003, 07:12 AM
Ok this is what ive got for the coming season.

Mario Lemieux - Martin Straka - Konstantin Koltsov
Morozov and Koltsov switching around during the season.

Ramzi Abid - Rico Fata - Aleksey Morozov
Abid hasnt earned the spot in camp but i would give him this chance since he hasnt failed at the NHL level (unlike Kraft or Beech)

Matt Bradley - Brian Holzinger - Matt Murley
Neither Beech nor Kraft have been able to beat out Holzinger , Bradley is the prototype 3rd liner and Murley has worked his way onto the team.

Kelly Buchberger - Mike Eastwood - Ryan Malone
Malone gets by on hard work and effort rather than talent, now he gets to learn from 2 guys who have been doing that at a high NHL level for a lot of years now.

Scrathes : Steve McKenna, Tom Kostopoulos
WBS Bound : Kris Beech, Milan Kraft, Colby Armstrong, Eric Meloche.



Dick Tarnstrom - Drake Berehowsky
Our top pairing, should play the PP as well.

Michal Roszival - Joseph Melichar
If healthy a very strong 2nd pairing.

Brooks Orpik - Patrick Boileau
Best of the rest, Orpik deserves this oportunity and Boileau's steady play has been enough imo to bump Focht out off the line up.

Scratches : Marc Bergevin,
WBS Bound : Dan Focht, David Koci, Ross Lupaschuk and Robert Scuderi


Marc-Andre Fleury
I think that we can get him signed.

Sebastien Caron
Should make 40 starts.

WBS Bound : Andy Chiodo, Jean-Sebastien Aubin

The Tang
09-29-2003, 07:29 AM
i realize they wont be around forever, but keep more this season means losing a youngster.....next year maybe the same. so keep Holzinger, lose kraft, next year sign some one else, lose Surovy etc.....

i have seen nothing in the past years that shows the Pens ability to groom youth, so why not let them show what they can or cant do - i am a believer that if thrown to the wolves, the true self will show up. i would like to see the players fail rather than making the management decide that

granted it is all opinionated, as we were all that hockey saavy we would probably be working within its industry :p

i do admit that i think we should only have signed one of eastwood or buchberger, not both. i do thik the spot should go to a young player. however, e dont make the decisions, and we have them both. also, i am not a fan of holzinger, and i wouldnt be surprised if he were put on waivers in teh draft, o possibly even traded.

no one has seen much in past years for development. GP was bad, and CP kept signing players like Daigle and Vujtek instead of giving a younger guy a chance, which was a mistake too. but now they've got a coach that communicate, no never will be's and a successful coach in WBS. i think things will get a lot better for the youth.

john g
09-29-2003, 07:36 AM
I too admit after thinking all your comments that keeping/signing one grinder/worker guy around for teaching is important

this quote taken from the pens home page, on the roster reduction article disturbs me about the current/existing regime - though it could be as much speculation as my own opinions.

"The forward situation isn't much clearer. There are currently 18 players battling for spots up front - 19 if you count Steve McKenna, who has been logging time on defense of late. Of those 18, Mario Lemieux, Martin Straka, Aleksey Morozov, Kelly Buchberger, Rico Fata, Brian Holzinger, Mike Eastwood, Reid Simpson and Konstantin Koltsov appear to be assured of jobs with the NHL clubs right now."

Reid Simpson - gimme a break, way to go with that one

The Tang
09-29-2003, 08:02 AM
i personally dont think simpson will be playing with teh Pens, unless its against someone like philly or ny, when the teams hate eachother and will be hitting anf fighting left and right. i think murley or malone is much more realistic than simpson, who does have a two way contract.

Koltsov71
09-29-2003, 08:17 AM
i do admit that i think we should only have signed one of eastwood or buchberger, not both.

To expand on that statement, I would prefer to only have two of Buchberger, Eastwood, Holzinger on the NHL roster. Preferably Holzinger being the one not on the team.

CP kept signing players like Daigle

I was excited when CP signed Daigle.

The Tang
09-29-2003, 09:33 AM
I was excited when CP signed Daigle.
so was i, but alas it was a failed experiment. i was leaning more toward the vujtek signing though, which imo was one of the dumbest signing cp has made since ive been seriously following hockey.

Koltsov71
09-29-2003, 09:36 AM
which imo was one of the dumbest signing cp has made since ive been seriously following hockey.

Not so much the signing itself, but the contractual aspects were ridiculous. Wasn't it a 2 year, 1 way deal?

Slartibartfast
09-29-2003, 10:12 AM
Wasn't it a 2 year, 1 way deal?

Yes, indeed it was, 2 years, $1.4 million.

Here's the link: Tribune Review Transactions (check July 15) (http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/sports/penguinslive/info/transactions.html)

The Tang
09-29-2003, 11:46 AM
2nd year was a Pens option. but if the guy couldnt make a bad tampa roster when he was younger, how could he be any good?

Darth Vitale
09-29-2003, 12:20 PM
When's the deadline for announcing the final roster again? I week from this Friday is opening night... I am totally stoked.

My personal feeling on all this is that Patrick has been basically a .500 hitter when it comes to trades / new signings over the last few years. Especially considering how pitiful his leverage has been.

Good:
Jagr deal
Hrdina deal

Manderville
(Technically, since we bagged Tibbetts in the process, this trade qualifies as "other worldly". I already miss Kent.)

Tarnstrom
Buchburger
Hedberg


Bad:
Kovalev deal
Boughner

Kasparaitis
(rarely played position hockey, but showed he could be sucessful on this team. We should've found a way to keep him...)

McKenna
(he IS a likeable guy off the ice, but picking this guy up... multiple times... gives me pause.)

Daigle
(we should've known better; the world is litered with very talented people who have no business on NHL ice.)


It's been real, now scram!
Laukannen
Jonsson
Dan, Randy and Wayne

:)

The Tang
09-29-2003, 12:53 PM
i wouldnt really call the jagr deal good at this point, as none of those guys have done much for us yet. and im still not wild about trading hedberg away. picking up McKenna the second time want that bad since he has improved much since the first time we had him. and i liked Dlac. i thought he was a great 4th liner.

KungFuPenguin
09-29-2003, 01:47 PM
I disagree with your examples of CP mistakes. Your reasoning doesn't seem to take financial aspects into consideration.

Kovalev

Bad trade, fantastic salary dump. Most teams stuck with similar high-salaried players wish they'd made this kind of deal last season. Hell, Fata's even starting to look like he could turn into a servicable NHL:er.

Boughner

Boughner is a good, hard-nosed 3rd-pairing defenseman with a lot of character. Worth $2.5M annually he ain't.

Kasparaitis
(rarely played position hockey, but showed he could be sucessful on this team. We should've found a way to keep him...)

You mean, like, winning the state lottery? Recycling $20M worth of empty beer cans? There was NO WAY Kasparaitis could've stayed a Penguin at anywhere near market value.

McKenna
(he IS a likeable guy off the ice, but picking this guy up... multiple times... gives me pause.)

Can't really argue with this one, except that, well, the team needs a cheap enforcer -- and if they're going to have a pylon out there, he might as well be the guy everybody loves to have around in he locker room. He's also big enough for Mario to trick-shoot goals off of.

Daigle
(we should've known better; the world is litered with very talented people who have no business on NHL ice.)

Oh come on. This was as low-risk as it gets. A one-year, low-cost contract for a guy with all the talent in the world, maybe just needing the right situation to blossom. Obviously it didn't happen, but there's no way this can reflect badly on CP in my opinion.

Der Schweinehund
09-30-2003, 03:14 AM
abid does have to clear waivers from what i understand, and you can bet he will be taken.

From my interpretation of section 13.4 (http://letsgopens.com/nhl_cba.php?id=13) of the CBA, as he is 23 and is 3 years from signing his first contract, as long as he has played less than 60 NHL games (he has played 33) he is ineligible. Once that 60th game comes though - it's another story.

Of course though, with any quasi-legal-ese, the key word there is "interpretation." :)

Evilo
09-30-2003, 05:51 AM
It was said in the Trib or Gazette that he had to go through waivers.

Darth Vitale
09-30-2003, 06:00 AM
I feel the Jagr trade was a good one, based on the salary dump, cash and three well-known prospects. Based on the information we had, it was a good move. It may yet turn out better than we think. Those kids are all young and haven't had the time that say Kraft has to develop.

As for Kovalev, I guess to be fair it all hinges on Fata. If he turns out to be a solid producer I would have to reconsider my classification on that dump.

I don't think Kaspar is the money hound you think he is, either. He would've be due a raise for sure but he really liked it here and the fans loved him. I don't know of course, but my sense is Patrick didn't even try to figure out a creative means of keeping him around. Meaning rebuild sooner rather than later, so you can give the guy just enough of a raise to stay put.

There were several journeymen forwards and guys like Hrdina who IMO were expendable all along, because of guys like Kraft, Peterson and Beech waiting in the wings -- guys who needed the ice time, because let's face it, after losing a couple years back in the EC Finals, we weren't going to win again anytime soon.

;)

Der Schweinehund
09-30-2003, 07:45 AM
It was said in the Trib or Gazette that he had to go through waivers.

The CBA also has some examples to underline how certain situations are handled. I think this example below is the case - which in theory, Abid would be in the equivalent of the 98-99 season. Thus he is exempt from the waiver draft, but eligible for regular season waivers. (My initial understanding of this posting was that it was more in reference to the waiver draft - given that was outlined up front.)


(c) A 20 year old Player who plays in one or more
Professional Games in the 1995-96 season will be exempt from
waivers as follows:

Season Waiver Draft Regular Season Waivers

95-96 n/a Exempt
96-97 Exempt Exempt
97-98 Exempt Exempt
98-99 Exempt Eligible
99-00 Eligible Eligible

Note: Once a 20 year old Player has played in his 160th NHL
Game, he will immediately become eligible for both regular season
waivers and the next waiver draft.