best prospect remaining?

HOCKEY_GURU
09-30-2003, 10:18 AM
Now that Ruutu and Pitkanen are NHL bound who are the best DRAFTED prospects remaining in Finland (excluding Goalies)? Im leaning towards Jussi Jokinen..he seems to have comparable numbers to that of Ruutu around the same age..any opinions?

Spiffy
09-30-2003, 10:32 AM
Jussi Jokinen is one. Blues have Dallas' talented Jarkko. A Immonen, HPK has Boston's Tuukka Mäkelä, Ilves has Teemu Jääskeläinen (chicago) , Karri Akkanen of Tampa Bay... the list goes on and on but the best prospect playing in Finland right now must be TPS' prolific centre, Mikko Koivu.

Padawan
09-30-2003, 10:44 AM
Mikko Koivu from TPS and Jarkko Immonen from JYP imo are the best prospects already drafted playing in SM-Liiga.

HOCKEY_GURU
09-30-2003, 01:33 PM
Mikko Koivu from TPS and Jarkko Immonen from JYP imo are the best prospects already drafted playing in SM-Liiga.
ok im curious here,......Jokinen is younger than Immonen and has more points..yet youre saying Immonen is better...im looking at point potential here...seems to me judging from the points that Jokinen has the better Potential...am I missing something? if possible can someone provide points potential in the NHL and style of hockey/NHL comparison they play?

psycho_dad
09-30-2003, 02:43 PM
Ilkka Heikkinen might not be drafted yet, I think he will become a very good d-man. Definitely NHL material (size, speed).

Jeff
09-30-2003, 10:05 PM
I think Mikko Koivu alreaady has a contract to NHL but it's agreed that he plays this season at TPS.

Well, anyways I think Jussi Jokinen is the best drafted prospect currently in Finland. Excelent start of the season, plays in the first line and is one of the leaders of his elite league team Karpat. If his whole season goes like this, he is in NHL next year wihtout a doubt. 1+5 in 6 games so far. I have to say here also that his team mate Janne Pesonen plays in the same line with Jussi and he has done 3+3 in 7 games so far. He has been more or less the sensation of the season so far. Very very talented young player.

Spiffy
09-30-2003, 10:44 PM
ok im curious here,......Jokinen is younger than Immonen and has more points..yet youre saying Immonen is better...im looking at point potential here...seems to me judging from the points that Jokinen has the better Potential...am I missing something? if possible can someone provide points potential in the NHL and style of hockey/NHL comparison they play? Points aren't everything. Jokinen is an offensive player who helps little in the defense, Immonen is developing into a nice two-way player, and thus has a wider variation of skills. Jokinen is a very good offensive prospect though and every team needs that all offensive skilled player but most people feel that better-rounded players are worth more because of their ability to do other things to help the team than just scoring.

Spiffy
09-30-2003, 10:46 PM
I think Mikko Koivu alreaady has a contract to NHL but it's agreed that he plays this season at TPS.

Yeah. I read the original post and he didn't say anything about the player having signed contracts and so. He just said that the prospects that are playing in Finland was the ones he was looking for, and Koivu fits that bill.

Padawan
09-30-2003, 10:59 PM
Points aren't everything. Jokinen is an offensive player who helps little in the defense, Immonen is developing into a nice two-way player, and thus has a wider variation of skills. Jokinen is a very good offensive prospect though and every team needs that all offensive skilled player but most people feel that better-rounded players are worth more because of their ability to do other things to help the team than just scoring.

I totally agree. I'd like to add one thing: IMO Immonen reads the game better than Jokinen. Although Jokinen is a top player he isn't a two way forward. Immonen has better defensive skills than Jokinen IMO.

Ok, that was only one game but Immonen played well with the Toronto Maple Leafs. That really showed how well he can read the game. Two beautiful passes and awesome game overall.

Taze
09-30-2003, 11:25 PM
I'd take Jokinen over Immonen anyday. Jokinen isn't that bad defensively, he positions very well and is no threat in own zone. Offensive skills and potential are in favor for Jokinen too.

IMO Koivu is the best prospect playing in Finland now.

jepjepjoo
10-01-2003, 06:32 AM
Jussi Jokinen
Mikko Koivu

It's funny that you mention Tuukka Mäkelä among best prospects he can't even fit the lineup

Spiffy
10-01-2003, 06:40 AM
Jussi Jokinen
Mikko Koivu

It's funny that you mention Tuukka Mäkelä among best prospects he can't even fit the lineup I was just mentioning some really good prospect. Him not being ready yet doesn't make him a bad prospect.

HOCKEY_GURU
10-01-2003, 06:42 AM
Thanks, I know what you mean about player value VS point production, since im looking to draft players for hockey pools my only concern is point potential ;) , seems like the consensus is that Jokinen would edge out Immonen for points, tho im not sure what the consensus is on how he would fair POINT wise against Koivu ( koivu already drafted in our pool so really im looking for the next best player...and i already have ruutu ;) )...anyways Im curious are there any D-men (already drafted) that may be the next niinima or kimmonen etc? (already have pitkanen lol)

Flonaldo
10-01-2003, 08:34 AM
I was just mentioning some really good prospect. Him not being ready yet doesn't make him a bad prospect.Well, at his current speed of development, it'll take approx. 28 years to get ready - and that's what makes him a bad prospect, if you can use such a term.

Mäkelä ain't an 18-year old who's biding his time. He's sat on the bench and he'll sit on the bench in the future. I don't think anyone's going to sign him to a SM-liiga contract after this year.

And to get back on topic. Hands down Koivu. Then Jokinen. Then all the rest probably headed by JYP's Immonen.

Sampe
10-01-2003, 12:06 PM
Jesse Niinimäki deserves a mention, I think he's at least on par with Immonen while Jokinen is slightly ahead of them both. But Koivu is easily the best.

Sampe
10-01-2003, 12:19 PM
anyways Im curious are there any D-men (already drafted) that may be the next niinima or kimmonen etc? (already have pitkanen lol)

I'm afraid not. Risto Korhonen might be the next D-man of that caliber but he won't be draft eligible until 2005.

Jeff
10-01-2003, 08:50 PM
Where is this Koivu praising coming from? What has Koivu actually proved or achived? Name Koivu in the back doesn't make him a great player. Koivu is his teams 1st center and he hasn't done all that much yet. I wouldn't rate koivu above Jokinen who on the other hand has already proved his skills. Koivu is nowhere near Tuomu Ruutu. Well, have to say that Jokinen isn't either - at least yet.

I wouldn't trade Jokinen to Koivu. And certainly not to Immonen. I haven't seen Koivu's or Immonen's games that much and my oppinions are based on TV games, games againsta Karpat and stories in different medias. I've been watching Jokinen in about every home game for over 3 years now.

Sampe
10-02-2003, 03:57 AM
Where is this Koivu praising coming from? What has Koivu actually proved or achived? Name Koivu in the back doesn't make him a great player. Koivu is his teams 1st center and he hasn't done all that much yet. I wouldn't rate koivu above Jokinen who on the other hand has already proved his skills. Koivu is nowhere near Tuomu Ruutu. Well, have to say that Jokinen isn't either - at least yet.

I wouldn't trade Jokinen to Koivu. And certainly not to Immonen. I haven't seen Koivu's or Immonen's games that much and my oppinions are based on TV games, games againsta Karpat and stories in different medias. I've been watching Jokinen in about every home game for over 3 years now.

OK...so:
2+2=4 in six games = hasn't done all that much
1+5=6 in seven games = excellent

Trust me, you'll see the name Koivu on this list (http://www.sm-liiga.fi/tilasto.asp?otsake1=Kausi+2003%2D2004+runkosarja&sarja=1124&maingroup=1&group=7&parm=0) in no time at all. And besides, it's not about achieving anything when it comes to prospects, it's about potential and the likeliness of reaching it. A smart, skilled, rather physical and defensively responsible 6'2 center with character sounds good to me. There have been moments when Mikko has looked like a bigger version of Saku, and although I'm 100 % sure that he'll never be THAT good I believe it's those moments that make people praise him.

IFK
10-02-2003, 10:33 AM
This is my Top5 Finnish forward prospect list:

1. Mikko Koivu, TPS
2. Jussi Jokinen, Kärpät
3. Jesse Niinimäki, Ilves
4. Jarkko Immonen, Jyp
5. Janne Pesonen, Kärpät (not drafted)

Jeff
10-02-2003, 10:47 PM
OK...so:
2+2=4 in six games = hasn't done all that much
1+5=6 in seven games = excellent
Last season:
Koivu: 37 games 7+ 13=20 +/-: -5
Jokinen: 51 games 14 + 23=37 +/-: +17

Anyways, this is clearly a matter of oppinion. In my oppinion Jokinen is better prospect than Koivu is. I haven't seen anything special from Koivu. In fact I belive he has just got better chances than the rest becouse of the name Koivu. And it certainly doesn't make it any harder that his dad is now the coach of TPS.

Padawan
10-03-2003, 04:46 AM
Let see.. By points per prospect.

Last season:
M.Koivu: 37 games 7+13=20
J.Jokinen: 51 games 14+23=37
J.Immonen: 56 games 10+23=33

Points/game
J.Jokinen 0,72
J.Immonen 0,59
M.Koivu 0,54

Now I'll check how much they meant to their teams by points.

JYP made 350 points (g+a) in regular season last year.
TPS made 323 points in regular season last year.
Kärpät made 395 points in regular season last year.

That means that...

J.Immonen made 9,43% of JYP points
M.Koivu made 6,2% of TPS points
J.Jokinen made 9,37% of Kärpät points.

Conclusion:
J.Jokinen made the most points per game but J.Immonen was more valuable to his team by points.

Flonaldo
10-03-2003, 05:08 AM
And then we returned back to earth...

When we are talking about NHL prospects it's not "what have you done for me lately" but in fact "what are you going to do for me in five years".

We're not talking about current production, potential is the key word. And not SM-liiga potential but NHL potential.

And when you sum all that up it's clear that Koivu is head and shoulders above the rest when we're talking about prospects. Jokinen might be the better player right now (and I wouldn't go that far based on a couple of games) but Koivu is highly more likely to be the better NHL player in five years time.

Koivu might one day be a 1-liner with the Wild. Jokinen will never be a 1-liner at Dallas, and neither will Immonen at Toronto. Niinimäki has a chance to be an exciting player, even at the NHL level, but his chances pretty slim compared to Koivu - boom-or-bust type.

Janne Pesonen... and then I woke up...

Padawan
10-03-2003, 09:26 AM
When we are talking about NHL prospects it's not "what have you done for me lately" but in fact "what are you going to do for me in five years".

True, but the one thing that everybody look considering a new player in the team is their stats.

Koivu is clearly the best NHL prospect in SM-Liiga today. He has the size and skills needed. Both Jokinen and Immonen has NHL potential the real consern IMO is their size.

Jokinen as a more a sniper type player and as such should be fast player not to get stopped by those huge defenders in NHL. He lacks speed and strenght as of now. He will develop as a player but if he can't fit himself in top 2 lines in the NHL he will be in trouble in North America IMHO. The other thing that is that he takes a fall too easy when opposing player hits him. Real too easy. In the NHL those big players hit you even harder. If I remember correctly, in the NHL players get back to you when you fall too easily. I think you know what I mean. If he can take those away he will be one step closer for NHL jersey of his own. Dallas is very good team and that makes it harder Jokinen.

Immonen... I am a JYP fan so my opinion about him may be a little bit biased. Last season I would've said that he needs to build up his strenght. It's like he has read what I wrote. He has build up his strenght and his size. He is still a bit small in size and should be faster if he is to be ready in the NHL. He reads the game very well and needs linemates who can read the also well. Tuomas Pihlman left and it shows this season. He has great work rate and is an intesive player. He also two-way player which doubles his value imo. Still he isn't ready. IMO he is too dependent of his line mates. Needs to improve his skating much more and is still too nice in the rink.

All in all IMO Immonen is better NHL prospect than Jokinen but not the best prospect in SM-Liiga. Mikko Koivu is the best NHL prospect.

sopuli
10-05-2003, 12:17 AM
Last season:
Koivu: 37 games 7+ 13=20 +/-: -5
Jokinen: 51 games 14 + 23=37 +/-: +17

Anyways, this is clearly a matter of oppinion. In my oppinion Jokinen is better prospect than Koivu is. I haven't seen anything special from Koivu.

Nice logic, but you almost said it yourself - you haven't seen anything from Koivu. You didn't see him playing in the last year's playoffs. He was clearly the best player in his team, and things looked pretty good for him this season, but he got injured. You often see young first line wingers in SM-Liiga, but a center is something special.

Slime
10-05-2003, 02:50 AM
Koivu is clearly the best NHL prospect in SM-Liiga today. He has the size and skills needed. Both Jokinen and Immonen has NHL potential the real consern IMO is their size.


Where is DieHard now with his reminders about how likely it is for a player to reach his potential? Yes, you sometimes see glimpses of a future NHL-star in Mikko Koivu, and he has the potential to become a 1st line center in the NHL, but if that chance is only like 15%, while Jussi Jokinens chance of becoming a 2nd line winger in Dallas is easily 50-60% as of now - is it so clear Koivu is the better prospect?

I'm not saying Jokinen is a better prospect than Koivu, but I'm arguing against those who say "Koivu is easily the best of the two".

Ranking the "best prospects" is more about the overall estimation about a players real future in the NHL, and not so much about their potential maximum, or ceiling.

Padawan
10-05-2003, 04:09 AM
IMO this "ranking the prospects" thing is nothing more but opinions and such. There's always different opinions on things and this makes it gppd to debate but very hard to make a decision where both parties agree.

Also these %'s are a matter of opinion. IMHO Koivu has better odds than 15% to get the 1st line center spot and Jokinen has weaker chanches than 50-60% to get 2nd line winger's position.

Spiffy
10-05-2003, 04:13 AM
IMO this "ranking the prospects" thing is nothing more but opinions and such. There's always different opinions on things and this makes it gppd to debate but very hard to make a decision where both parties agree.

Also these %'s are a matter of opinion. IMHO Koivu has better odds than 15% to get the 1st line center spot and Jokinen has weaker chanches than 50-60% to get 2nd line winger's position.

I agree. Mostly opinons there. Also the teams they've been drafted for seem to be of too big meaning is thread, I like to think of drafted prospects like what they could become without thinking about the team, who knows drafted prospects get traded sometimes and that shouldn't cause the potential to change. The potential should be the same for one player, no matter what team it is, IMHO it is the player's potential not the player's potential on a team that should be discussed.

Slime
10-05-2003, 04:59 AM
What? Are we just stating our opinions here??? I thought we were founding laws and commandments. :joker:

You guys are saying the obvious - of course these are just our opinions! Now don't end a thread about the best finnish prospects by proclaiming the basics for a discussion on a board on the internet. :rolly:

Slime
10-05-2003, 05:01 AM
IMO this "ranking the prospects" thing is nothing more but opinions and such. There's always different opinions on things and this makes it gppd to debate but very hard to make a decision where both parties agree.
Also these %'s are a matter of opinion. QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Mattihp]I agree. Mostly opinons there.

What? Are we just stating our opinions here??? I thought we were founding laws and commandments. :joker:

You guys are saying the obvious - of course these are just our opinions! Now don't end a thread about the best finnish prospects by proclaiming the basics for a discussion on a board on the internet. :rolly

Slime
10-05-2003, 05:02 AM
IMO this "ranking the prospects" thing is nothing more but opinions and such. There's always different opinions on things and this makes it gppd to debate but very hard to make a decision where both parties agree.
Also these %'s are a matter of opinion.

I agree. Mostly opinons there.

What? Are we just stating our opinions here??? I thought we were founding laws and commandments. :joker:

You guys are saying the obvious - of course these are just our opinions! Now don't end a thread about the best finnish prospects by proclaiming the basics for a discussion on a board on the internet. :rolly:

Spiffy
10-05-2003, 08:02 AM
What? Are we just stating our opinions here??? I thought we were founding laws and commandments. :joker:

You guys are saying the obvious - of course these are just our opinions! Now don't end a thread about the best finnish prospects by proclaiming the basics for a discussion on a board on the internet. :rolly:
But hello! It's not like we're the brains of the forums ;) we are just here to keep you regular guys down :D

Just joking...

What we are trying to say (I guess) is that it is hard to not being a little homer while putting up a list of prospects because different people like different things in players and thus rank players with their favoured abilities above others and such.

Padawan
10-05-2003, 08:19 AM
What we are trying to say (I guess) is that it is hard to not being a little homer while putting up a list of prospects because different people like different things in players and thus rank players with their favoured abilities above others and such.

Exacdamundo, Matti.

Jeff
10-05-2003, 10:22 PM
Someone said that size is the key factor at the end. Mikko Koivu is 188cm/86kg and Jussi Jokinen is 183cm/87kg. I wouldn't consider Jokinen weak and small even if Koivu is 5cm taller. With those measurements Jokinen has also a decent size to make it in NHL.

Then someone said that it's easier to make it as a winger. Well, we have to remember that Jokinen is actually a center also. He has always played as a center except for the last years, becouse it's pretty hard to beat Lievers in that section.

And like someone said that I haven't actually seen that many games from Mikko Koivu. That was my point excactly. I base my oppinion to the games I've seen only.

teme
10-08-2003, 01:33 AM
I've never been able to get that exited about Mikko Koivu. He'll be a solid player, but he just isn't that talented. If you want a safe bet to make it to NHL though, he is it of the current crop.

OTOH, Niinimäki has holes all over his game but most of them are fixable. The potential here is sky high, he *could* be the best playmaker in any league five years from now. Or he could be out of hockey.

I'd take Niinimäki.

Das Rancor
10-12-2003, 12:43 AM
Check out number 9 on the list Sampe Mentioned: Tomek Valtonen 5+5=10... Just another example of a Jokerit player who starts emerging the moment he gets playing time and responsability... But with the new mentality he's one of the first players who haven't had to change teams to achieve this... If he keeps it up, who knows... He ain't too old yet!

Jokerit79
10-14-2003, 03:50 AM
I would say the top five prospects in the sm-liiga are as follows:

Drafted

1.Mikko Koivu TPS (Minnesota):Big, smart centre with good hands.. Seems to finally be putting it all together.Production will increase when Mika Alatalo gets off the injured-list.It (almost) always takes bigger players a bit longer to develop.

2.Jesse Niinimäki Ilves (Edmonton):Out for the season due to a shoulder injury.Has several flaws in his game (skating, strengh, conditioning), but probably has more natural talent than any other sm-liiga prospect.Great hands,vision and passing skills.Could turn out to be better than Koivu, or he might never even make the NHL.

3.Jussi Jokinen Kärpät (Dallas):Potentional sniper with good playmaking skills.I'm not as sold on him as some people on this board are.Needs to work on strengh and stamina.Is he fast enough to get past d-men in the NHL?

4.Toni Koivisto Lukko (Florida): I'll take my chances here.Looked great in 2001 wjc:s with Jokinen and Immonen, but didn't really develop as expected last year.Has been getting 1st-line ice time with Lukko this year. Very fast and has a good shot, has the talent to be very good if he puts it all together

5.Jarkko Immonen Jyp (Toronto):Has been overhyped after playing well in the Toronto-Jokerit exibition game.Good all-around player, but not as talented as the four guys above him.

Undrafted

1.Lauri Tukonen Blues (2004 eligible):Has played very well in A-junior (8 goals and 4 assists in 7 games) and earned a promotion to the Sm-liiga team.I saw him play against Ässät last week.He's a very good skater with great acceleration and smooth hands.Another potentional sniper who will likely go in the top 15 of next years draft.

2. Pasi Nokelainen Saipa (2004):Has a good frame (185cm 86kg)for a 17-year old.Has scored two goals in the SM-liiga so far.Haven't really seen him enough to comment too much on his style.

3.Pasi Salonen HIFK 2004

4.Jesse Joensuu Ässät 2005

Spiffy
10-14-2003, 03:56 AM
Undrafted

1.Lauri Tukonen Blues (2004 eligible):Has played very well in A-junior (8 goals and 4 assists in 7 games) and earned a promotion to the Sm-liiga team.I saw him play against Ässät last week.He's a very good skater with great acceleration and smooth hands.Another potentional sniper who will likely go in the top 15 of next years draft.

2. Pasi Nokelainen Saipa (2004):Has a good frame (185cm 86kg)for a 17-year old.Has scored two goals in the SM-liiga so far.Haven't really seen him enough to comment too much on his style.

3.Pasi Salonen HIFK 2004

4.Jesse Joensuu Ässät 2005

Great post. I would like to see more of these things on the Finland board.
And here's a player who could be number 5 on your undrafted prospects list: Jarmo Jokila. One of the most talented jr's on TPS right now, Jokila is touted to be the next "big" small superstar on TPS in the not too far future. His pros include things like vision, offensive sense of the game and great attitude while his cons are his size, his size and his size... He is also quite fiesty.

Korkki
10-14-2003, 05:34 AM
Undrafted

1.Lauri Tukonen Blues (2004 eligible):Has played very well in A-junior (8 goals and 4 assists in 7 games) and earned a promotion to the Sm-liiga team.I saw him play against Ässät last week.He's a very good skater with great acceleration and smooth hands.Another potentional sniper who will likely go in the top 15 of next years draft.

2. Pasi Nokelainen Saipa (2004):Has a good frame (185cm 86kg)for a 17-year old.Has scored two goals in the SM-liiga so far.Haven't really seen him enough to comment too much on his style.

3.Pasi Salonen HIFK 2004

4.Jesse Joensuu Ässät 2005

Two mistakes (I hate saying this, but it is better that all the info is correct)
The SaiPa guy is called Petteri Nokelainen.
And Joensuu is eligible 2006. He's born in October

I would add the fifth to the list as Risto Korhonen, Kärpät. 2005 eligible defenceman who is touted to be next Reksa Ruotsalainen (were the Niinimaa and Pitkänen called same way) ;)

Jeff
10-14-2003, 10:01 PM
Yesterday I watched TPS-Karpat on tv. So it was Mikko Koivu vs Jussi Jokinen. Based on that game I'd still take Jokinen wihtout a doubt. Koivu did nothing in that game. Jokinen asssisted 2 goals and played a good game again.

think-blue-
10-17-2003, 10:21 PM
5.Jarkko Immonen Jyp (Toronto):Has been overhyped after playing well in the Toronto-Jokerit exibition game.Good all-around player, but not as talented as the four guys above him.


Apparently, Immonen didn't look all too great in the scrimmages when he was with the Leafs, yet surprised a lot of people when he played the exb. game vs Jokerit.

Anyways, I had a question about him. Ive heard conflicting reports about his speed. Some say he's quite quick (and he looked it in the game vs Jokerit), and others say he isn't. Whats the story here?

He seems to be getting off to a good start this season as well, which is good to hear.

miklu
10-18-2003, 12:23 AM
Immonen's role in his JYP line Uhlbäck-Immonen-Virtanen is very playmaking and defensive. So he doesn't have to show his speed that much. I think his speed has much improved as also his physical game after he got 7 kilos more to his weight before this season. I think Immonen's speed is enough for playing at a very high level, but it's not his biggest asset.
Immonen's line has been really amazing. Altough JYP is having lots of problems with injuries that line has maintained it's high level every night. The results can be seen in +/- stats:

http://www.sm-liiga.fi/tilasto.asp?otsake1=Kausi+2003%2D2004+runkosarja&sarja=1124&maingroup=1&group=10&parm=0

Which says that Immonen is leading those stats by many + points to other players in SM-Liiga. +11 in 12 games tells a lot about his good defensive game.

hawksfan50
10-20-2003, 11:11 AM
Now that Ruutu and Pitkanen are NHL bound who are the best DRAFTED prospects remaining in Finland (excluding Goalies)? Im leaning towards Jussi Jokinen..he seems to have comparable numbers to that of Ruutu around the same age..any opinions?


TEEMU JAASKELAINEN is playing on the first D-pairing in Ilves =pretty impressive for a young D-man to be given that responsibility ......currently he's a +5 and I note that lastyear's last place Ilves is sitting tied for 2nd place in the SM-liga to date this year.....While he is not the offensive star that his D-partner Cory murphy has been for the team this year---he has already potted 2 goals which is not bad for a supposed "defensive stay at home D-man" that he's supposed to be....I thought at the WJHC he was obviously no PITKANEN --but he was quite "solid" back there =the only other FINN D-man aside from Pitkanen to show any competance whatsover on the ice for the Finland squad....I think he can become a "solid" #5-6 NHL D-man eventually...

Gredu
10-23-2003, 03:41 AM
As much as I understand Mr GURU here was more keen on the D-men. The team I support (HIFK A-juniors) started out the season with a winning streak, but now taken a slight downhill turn. Any good prospects there? Ville Varakas? Pikkarainen-Varakas seems to be a hot combination on the ice.

SergeiK
10-29-2003, 01:56 AM
5.Jarkko Immonen Jyp (Toronto):Has been overhyped after playing well in the Toronto-Jokerit exibition game.Good all-around player, but not as talented as the four guys above him.At this point this over-rated and overhyped Jarkko Immonen is leading the league in +/- rating. He`s third on the scoring leader`s chart. The leader of his squad and he delivers every single night. If this is not the classical case when a little hype would be appropriate, then I don`t know what is. Off course we can cry and moan about the how the level of SM-league has decreased and cry after Marek Zidlicky or Tommi Santala. Or we can buy a pair of new sunglasses because the new star is born - Jarkko Immonen.

If we compare Jarkko to Mikko "Even talented than his older brother" Koivu we can clearly see that Koivu`s myth as a top player has started live it`s own life.

People are waiting and waiting to Koivu to step up. This didn`t happen last season and clearly it seems that it won`t happen this season. He`s 79th on scoring chart. 15 games 2+5=7 and PM 4 and -1. Ok, start to think excuses. "Military service" (starts in next january), " His linemate`s injury". What else? Someone thinked that Koivu will have a glorious future in NHL. So did someone when Teemu Riihijärvi was drafted.

While you`re making up reasons why Koivu isn`t dominating this league, take a quick look at Jarkko Immonen and what he has shown.

Yeah, yeah, the whole concept of a prospect means that "what you are gonna achieve in ten years jadda jadda". But I think that Koivu has not shown anything, but empty promises of great future . Now we are talking about "over-hyped".

These prospect ratings are a bit like shares. They`re filled with expectation values and hopes. In my mind Koivu seems a bit like dotcom share. At least when compared to Jarkko Immonen...

Jeff
10-29-2003, 03:10 AM
I agree a lot with Sergei. Especially about Koivu. About Immonen... well, on saturday I watched Karpat-Jyp and in my oppinion Immonen didn't show anything spectacular despite even though he made a goal. He had a chance to do some more, but he didn't. Anyways, I wasn't impressed even though it seems that he is having a good period going on right now. It was a whole different things for example with Tuomu Ruutu last season and occasionally Jussi Jokinen this season. With Ruutu and Jokinen you can occasionally see their domination when playing, but I haven't seen that yet from Immonen nor Koivu.

And the other thing is that I think Immonen has a better enviroment to develope and shine in JYP, becouse its rather small team with not so much pressure for success than Koivu has in TPS or Jokinen has in Karpat.

SergeiK
10-29-2003, 09:14 PM
And the other thing is that I think Immonen has a better enviroment to develope and shine in JYP, becouse its rather small team with not so much pressure for success than Koivu has in TPS or Jokinen has in Karpat.At this time this is just the opposite. JYP has experienced some major injuries (Tremblay, Sillgren, TKovanen, Loikala) so basically the whole goal-scoring duty is transferred to Immonen`s line (Uhlbäck-Immonen-Virtanen). If they don`t score, JYP don`t score. So far Immonen has carried the pressure very well.


In those higher profile franschises you have capasity to acquire new players when your whole roster is filled with teenagers. JYP don`t have that.

But Jyväskylä is great place to a young player to develop. With maybe the greatest coaching in SM-league and town itself is very young and lively. JYP has a reputation to make bunch of nobodys to top players.

edit: typo

Jeff
10-30-2003, 01:24 AM
With maybe the greatest coaching in SM-league
:lol: :p :lol:

I don't think you got my point exactly.(or then I didn't make it clear well enough).
I meant that the team doesn't have same kind of pressures than TPS, Jokerit, HIFK, Blues, Karpat and so on has. If Jyp doesn't succeed, so what? No one is surprised. But if TPS for example doesn't succeed there is a big fuss about that and everyone is writing about it and looking for people resbonsible for that. And TPS had that situation in the first games of the season. And I think Koivu's pressures to succeed were a bit different than Immonen's. Even thgouh Immonen is the top JYP player currently I don't think that people even now are waiting him to do miracles. And if he doesn't, that's ok by most of the people. That is not the case for some other young prospects at other teams.

Padawan
10-30-2003, 01:38 AM
I don't think you got my point exactly.(or then I didn't make it clear well enough).
I meant that the team doesn't have same kind of pressures than TPS, Jokerit, HIFK, Blues, Karpat and so on has. If Jyp doesn't succeed, so what? No one is surprised. But if TPS for example doesn't succeed there is a big fuss about that and everyone is writing about it and looking for people resbonsible for that. And TPS had that situation in the first games of the season. And I think Koivu's pressures to succeed were a bit different than Immonen's. Even thgouh Immonen is the top JYP player currently I don't think that people even now are waiting him to do miracles. And if he doesn't, that's ok by most of the people. That is not the case for some other young prospects at other teams.

That depends totally where you're from. If Jokinen or Koivu doesn't succeed, I don't mind. If Immonen doesn't succeed, it bothers me. You clearly don't know JYP's situation (it shows in your post). Karpat, TPS, Jokerit and all the rest of the "big clubs" have the money so one bad season isn't disaster to them. They just buy new players and try again next season to get their hands to the trophy. The "smaller" teams such as JYP, Pelicans, SaiPa etc. have to produce points and have to play good to secure their next season and by that I mean that they afford their current star players.

Off the topic, Jokinen is in the wrong team if he wants to develop as a player. We all know that JYP is the team where young players develop to be a star player.

Flonaldo
10-30-2003, 02:07 AM
That depends totally where you're from. If Jokinen or Koivu doesn't succeed, I don't mind. If Immonen doesn't succeed, it bothers me.Yup, you might think like that. Most people look at Koivu having 5 points (or whatever) and say he's a bust - regardless of where they're from and which team they support. But if Immonen had only 5 points most people would say "Jarkko Who?". The weight of expectations is much higher for Koivu than Immonen. The same weight for TPS is a lot higher than for JYP. And the weight of carrying TPS is higher than carrying JYP.Off the topic, Jokinen is in the wrong team if he wants to develop as a player. We all know that JYP is the team where young players develop to be a star player.And the biggest homer -award goes to...

Jeff
10-30-2003, 02:36 AM
I agree with Flonaldo.

Padawan, well, where should I start...hmm..ok. So JYP has to success every season to make it possible to play next season? why it is n't dropped already?? That is ********. It's not up to success if players stay at JYP or don't. Petr Ton stayed there several years without success. And last year JYP did good, but still lots of good players left the team. So it's not up to success. And what it comes to buying players, I think small teams by as many players as top teams. Only thing that makes a different is the quality.

And if we get back to this prospect thing and lets look at the time before season started. What were the expetations for Koivu and Jokinen and what were the expetations for Immonen? And I am not talking about the expetations of fans of those teams, but in media and so on. Koivu and Jokinen were expected to be leaders in their team and Immonen was expected to play a nice season. I think Immonen's pressures have been SLIGHTLY lighter than for example Koivu and Jokinen.

oh, BTW, I don't think Jokinen would be intrested to move to JYP. :)

SergeiK
10-30-2003, 03:38 AM
And what it comes to buying players, I think small teams by as many players as top teams. Only thing that makes a different is the quality. You mean they have higher pricetags? Jason Dawe, anyone? Talk about quality...

Off course there are difference how media treats Koivu or Immonen as far as the expectations go. But still there is that element in Immonen`s game that he alone must carry his team. If he fails, JYP fails. If Koivu fails - well, he has a written contract with Minnesota Wild and he`s still a top prospect. In TPS there are others who would (and have) pick up the torch. Besides in TPS Mikko Koivu is coached by his own father. Immonen doesn`t have that luxory. Nobody cared how Koivu produced last year. "He`s still Mikko "Saku`s brother" Koivu. Top prospect. Best of the bunch. If Immonen would fail, he`s headed for small SM-liiga clubs. Bit like Timo Hirvonen. Yeah, the right answer is Timo who?

And by the way. The average hockey in Finland fan doesn`t know anything about Jussi Jokinen. Ask anyone who lives above Tampere."Jussi who...?" Maybe in Oulu he`s a star, but in the whole country is as well known as Max Kenig. And Kenig has more memorable surname.

Padawan
10-30-2003, 04:11 AM
I agree with Flonaldo.

Padawan, well, where should I start...hmm..ok. So JYP has to success every season to make it possible to play next season? why it is n't dropped already??
Did I say that? I said that JYP has a different kind of pressure to success than ie. Karpat has. JYP has to success to keep their star players and get new star material to keep it's course towards the top. It's a big journey and it will take some time but we are getting there if our team continues to success in the rate that they have been lately. Yeah, we lost some players and we let go some players but we lost players to NHL (Perrin, Pihlman) and we some players go 'cause there weren't room for them (Nikolov, Chlubna, Kulonen, Poikolainen to name a few). Tell me a team that can compete with NHL when it comes to salaries and people dreams. I say there's no team in Finland that can do that.

We haven't dropped 'cause we have had success lately. To get to play offs is success. It gives us valuable money the build our team for the next season.

oh, BTW, I don't think Jokinen would be intrested to move to JYP. :)

Kinda sorry to tell you this but Jokinen would've liked to move here if he had been accepted to Jyvaskyla's university. His agent was in contact with JYP last summer.

jepjepjoo
10-30-2003, 05:12 AM
Off the topic, Jokinen is in the wrong team if he wants to develop as a player. We all know that JYP is the team where young players develop to be a star player.

but we lost players to NHL (Perrin, Pihlman).

Since when has JYP been THE team where young players develop to stars :dunno: I cant remember 1 players who has made it to the NHL from JYP. Perrin and Pihlman are playing in the AHL and I seriosly doubt that either of them will make it (well Pihlman has a small chanche)

Padawan
10-30-2003, 05:50 AM
Since when has JYP been THE team where young players develop to stars :dunno: I cant remember 1 players who has made it to the NHL from JYP. Perrin and Pihlman are playing in the AHL and I seriosly doubt that either of them will make it (well Pihlman has a small chanche)

Since when Matti Alatalo came to coach JYP. But what I meant as a star player was not NHL. I meant in SM-Liiga. Oh, and please check this link. (http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=19461)

jj_fin
10-31-2003, 01:27 AM
Uhh. The Kärpät / JYP rivalrly... Big, rich, capitalist club versus the poor and... something club.


Originally Posted by Padawan
Off the topic, Jokinen is in the wrong team if he wants to develop as a player. We all know that JYP is the team where young players develop to be a star player.


:lol: We do? Pihlman is the first product of JYP that has signed an NHL-contract since...I don't know. Prolly before my time.

Perrin was already decent in Ässät and HPK, he just had a much bigger role than before last year in JYP's team. But we lost Jeff Hamilton to NHL, too.
Immonen isn't a product of JYP, but I have to admit that he has improved a lot there and will be a future NHL'er. I'd give huge credit to Alatalo for that.

So ONE (1, yksi) young player has moved to JYP from elsewhere developed to a star player there recently.

We all know that HPK is THE club for young players to develop (Somervuori, Santala, Pärssinen, Hentunen ..need I say more?)

Jokinen's developement.. heh..

Jokinen IMO is already a star player, our product, just like Pitkänen & co. We seem to get a new one every year, (Pesonen now) wonder why?

Jokinen wanted to move to JYP, b*llsht. Why'd he sign a 3-year-contract in January then? Just to let JYP buy it out during the summer?

His next transfer will be from Kärpät Oulu to Dallas Stars. Not from Kärpät Oulu to JYP Jyväskylä, I'm terribly sorry. I'm also sorry because we won the playoff-series. And I'm sorry 'cause Lasse 'the chicken*' Kukkonen plays in the NHL and Janne Hauhtonen doesn't.

(*name only used in Jyväskylä)

Kiitos ja anteeksi.

miklu
10-31-2003, 05:23 AM
If we take a wider time scale I wouldn't even say that HPK or Kärpät has been the most productive. I'd choose TPS because of their already proved NHL stars (Koivu, Lehtinen etc.). The runner up would be Jokerit (Selänne etc). Considering the resources I'd think JYP and HPK have both done extremely good job lately.

Padawan
10-31-2003, 10:22 PM
Immonen isn't a product of JYP, but I have to admit that he has improved a lot there and will be a future NHL'er. I'd give huge credit to Alatalo for that.

So ONE (1, yksi) young player has moved to JYP from elsewhere developed to a star player there recently.

We all know that HPK is THE club for young players to develop (Somervuori, Santala, Pärssinen, Hentunen ..need I say more?)

Well, once again. I said that we have developed young players to star (or at least quality) players to SM-Liiga. I'll say a few names at this point.
Jyri Marttinen, Tuomas Pihlman, Ari Ahonen, Tommi Tervo (he's getting there) and Tommi Nikkilä.

Those HPK players you mentioned took the final step there (like Immonen in here) but there aren't from there.

Somervuori is from Jokerit, Helsinki
Santala is from Jokerit, Helsinki
Pärssinen -> TuTo, Turku
Hentunen -> Diskos, Jyväskylä and Hermes, Kokkola

Those are the teams they were before they signed with HPK.


Jokinen's developement.. heh..

Jokinen wanted to move to JYP, b*llsht. Why'd he sign a 3-year-contract in January then? Just to let JYP buy it out during the summer?

Jokinen's developement, I'll give you that. It was just a provocative comment and you took the bait.

However, what I heard from semi-reliable source (so I stll don't know how true this is) is that if Jokinen would've accepted in Jyväskylä's university then he would have played in JYP with a somekind of rent contract. JYP never did accept that because they didn't have to when Jokinen wasn't accepted in our university.

jj_fin
11-01-2003, 09:30 AM
Well, once again. I said that we have developed young players to star (or at least quality) players to SM-Liiga. I'll say a few names at this point.
Jyri Marttinen, Tuomas Pihlman, Ari Ahonen, Tommi Tervo (he's getting there) and Tommi Nikkilä.


Those are all products of JYP, if I'm not mistaken?

I ment the players that took, or are taking 'the final step', (like you said) in JYP. Players that moved from elsewhere to get more icetime and a bigger role or something. HPK has been doing that a lot, getting some Mestis-stars and some potential juniors that haven't done that well. And they have succeeded in that. Those players in your list are all (well at least 3 of them) great players nonetheless.

Every club get some star players from their juniors occasionally, but JYP has got a bunch of them (Ahonen, Marttinen, Pihlman, Tervo, Viljanen) very recently. A new star almost every year that is. Now I see your point, heh.

Provocative comments... I like those. Watch out, I get provocated very easily.
Semi-reliable sources...umm... I heard from one that Jokinen didn't even try to get to the university in Jyväskylä. ;)

Jeff
11-02-2003, 10:03 PM
Ahonen, Marttinen, Pihlman, Tervo, Viljanen
Star players?
:lol:

Padawan
11-02-2003, 11:20 PM
Star players?
:lol:
In SM-Liiga... some were, others will be.

jepjepjoo
11-03-2003, 04:03 AM
In SM-Liiga... some were, others will be.

No stars on that list... I didnt consider even Pihlman a star