Fleury Goes Home

PensFan68
10-02-2003, 08:10 PM
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/sports/penguinslive/s_158162.html

Unhappy with an offer from the Penguins that agent Allan Walsh said was "way below" what other No. 1 draft picks have received in recent years, goaltender Marc-Andre Fleury left Pittsburgh last night and returned to Montreal.

Horrible news. Hopefully we can work something out.

V for Voodoo
10-02-2003, 08:30 PM
:rolleyes: Walsh is also Havlat and Gaboriks agent. grade A moron

AEKaki
10-02-2003, 08:30 PM
Very weird.
very very weird,
because I just saw an 8 minute report on RDS (TSN's french channel) about Fleury and that Lemieux garanties that he will be signed.

weird and sad.
I hope CP hasn't made Fleury mad about us.

Jacob
10-02-2003, 08:38 PM
I'll wait until I hear what the offer was before I start blaming CP or Walsh.

But CP knew what he was getting into when he traded up. There's no reason his first proposal shouldn't have been at least satisfactory for Fleury's agent. It's not like with regular free agents, where the GM says 2 million, the agent says 5, and they settle at 3.5, the figure here is 1 million a year plus 3 million in easily-obtained bonuses. I don't like it, but that's the way it is.

Yet Lemieux gets his salary doubled. I think the Penguins continue to take steps backward, at least from a PR standpoint. I don't blame the casual Pens fan if they're absolutely irrate over the last 3 years of management. It's amazing how many people I know of that used to be die hard fans, even if they weren't super-knowledgable, who now wouldn't attend a Penguins game if they hid money under the seats.

I'm glad I held off on the season tickets. I'm not feeling all too thrilled about the upcoming season. I'm not giving half of my income to an organization that's in absolute shambles, and that has little to do with Fleury.

The Tang
10-02-2003, 08:58 PM
yeah, its a little disconcerting. though i think its becoming clear that this agent is an outright *******. i still think they can sign him. i too would like to know what the contract was. after all, when CP was making a new deal with Hedberg, his first offer was really low, so im not too concerned.

Doofis_L_Hipster
10-03-2003, 03:37 AM
This is kind of Patrick's game though, to initially come in with an unreasonably low figure and then try to bargain for the best price he can get.

I bet the last thing he figured would happen is that the mild mannered kid would up and leave after just an offer.

But as said, Patrick should have known what it would have taken to sign Fleury when he traded up for the first overall pick in June. One would think he wouldn't make such a move if he wasn't prepared to offer the salary that would go along with the territory of drafting a goaltender #1 overall.

There's still no reason, technically, that CP and the Pens still couldn't sign Fleury before the deadline. But Patrick usually doesn't respond well when such a party has done something so confrontational so I don't think anyone really should expect him to jump on a plane and chase MAF, unless there's so much pressure from above.

kutdacheez
10-03-2003, 04:29 AM
I don't blame the casual Pens fan if they're absolutely irrate over the last 3 years of management. It's amazing how many people I know of that used to be die hard fans, even if they weren't super-knowledgable, who now wouldn't attend a Penguins game if they hid money under the seats.

I'm glad I held off on the season tickets. I'm not feeling all too thrilled about the upcoming season. I'm not giving half of my income to an organization that's in absolute shambles, and that has little to do with Fleury.

So, if I understand your message here . . . you wouldn't blame the "casual fan" for being irrate, the "die-hard fans" that you know (even if they are not too intelligent) wouldn't go to the games even if they had had money hidden under the seats . . . and you have been spending one-half of your total income[/B] on Penguin Tickets.

Wow, one-half of your income . . . that says about as much as anyone needs to know.
No wonder you are upset.

But, are you certain your anger has anything to do with the Penguins?

BTW, in regard to 1/2 your income, was that before or after taxes?

kutdacheez
10-03-2003, 04:36 AM
This is kind of Patrick's game though, to initially come in with an unreasonably low figure and then try to bargain for the best price he can get.
I bet the last thing he figured would happen is that the mild mannered kid would up and leave after just an offer.
There's still no reason, technically, that CP and the Pens still couldn't sign Fleury before the deadline. But Patrick usually doesn't respond well when such a party has done something so confrontational so I don't think anyone really should expect him to jump on a plane and chase MAF, unless there's so much pressure from above.

Good post. It's all about negoiations. Fluery did what he should do. He hired an agent and he's listening to his agent's advice. Whether the agent is a jerk, or not . . . doesn't much matter.

Those that don't get it . . . just don't get it. Without some dissimulation no business can be carried on at all!

Histrion
10-03-2003, 05:18 AM
Walsh and Schatia will make a counter-offer today, we'll say what goes on..

Doofis_L_Hipster
10-03-2003, 05:34 AM
Walsh and Schatia will make a counter-offer today, we'll say what goes on..

We already know what will go on.

They will ask for the obvious maximum rookie contract:
3 years, $1.24 million annually

plus a series of bonuses
like for playing a certain amount of minutes, bonuses for shutouts, wins, save percentage, GAA and other stats.

And it will max out, ultimately to somewhere between $13 - $15 million total, which is a maximum of $5 million annually. Compare that to all the 18 year olds who've been signed #1 overall since Thornton and the deal is reasonable in such a salary structure for a player of Fleury's caliber and potential.

This is no secret, no folks. Craig Patrick had to have some idea of this when he moved up to pick him. The hangup is going to be if they can afford to take it on this year.

I bet ideally CP would love to move $4.3 million dollars of salary (known as Martin Straka to the fans) which would clear the way to sign Fleury without raising the bar at all. But that probably isn't likely for a few more months.

Koltsov71
10-03-2003, 05:47 AM
I'm still taking NHL Contracts 101, so this may appear as a silly question. But, could the Penguins sign Fleury and return him to juniors. Then they'd only have to pay him his base salary, right?

kutdacheez
10-03-2003, 06:01 AM
I'm still taking NHL Contracts 101, so this may appear as a silly question. But, could the Penguins sign Fleury and return him to juniors. Then they'd only have to pay him his base salary, right?

Absolutely. The NHL Contracts 101 stuff is pretty funny.

jhopspensfan
10-03-2003, 07:17 AM
Let me start off by saying that I am a huge fan of Craig Patrick. HOWEVER, this little stunt is downright ludicrous! #1 picks overall get #1 pick overall salaries (bonuses). Period. WHY in the FU*&$#G world would Craig low-ball MA that bad? What a PR move. The city and the entire Pittsburgh Penguin hockey world have rallied around this kid. Now he is at home. I will go as far as saying that this could shake the team up. It certainly won't help. I am stunned and disappointed. I can only hope that Craig will come to his senses. I pray so.


(As of 10:40 a.m. Friday, October 3, the official Pittsburgh Penguins website- http://www.pittsburghpenguins.com is not reporting Fleury has left camp. I'd say this is a pretty good sign of what our PR department thinks of the situation.)

Der Schweinehund
10-03-2003, 08:06 AM
WHY in the FU*&$#G world would Craig low-ball MA that bad? What a PR move. The city and the entire Pittsburgh Penguin hockey world have rallied around this kid.

My goodness - I cannot believe some of the overreaction here. Let's put this in perspective.

The only indication of a "low-ball" is coming from Fleury's agent. Of course no one knows what the agents want and no one knows what Patrick is offering. Fact is this is a very, very common tactic called posturing.

Why on earth would the agents send Fleury home? Answer - because it is newsworthy and would raise the blood pressure of fans. Guess what - mission accomplished. The idea then is to play the fans and media towards Fleury and his agents' side to get a wave of popular opinion forcing the Pens to capitulate.

This is what negotiation is all about.

As far as I am concerned, the only real questionable PR move in this scenario is Mario coming out and saying he would like Fleury to play in Pittsburgh this season and even that Fleury was moving into his house. Ka-ching $$!! That's the best type of comment the agents could hear.

Der Schweinehund
10-03-2003, 08:12 AM
I'm still taking NHL Contracts 101, so this may appear as a silly question. But, could the Penguins sign Fleury and return him to juniors. Then they'd only have to pay him his base salary, right?

Errr...I don't think so.

There is that magic 11 or 12 number that exists as far as NHL games played before being returned to junior - but that is only about waiver and free agency eligibility...not contract.

For games he plays up to and including the magic number before he is sent down, he makes NHL contract money - but it doesn't count as a season played. For games he plays above and beyone the magic number, he makes NHL contract money - but it then counts as a season played.

Once he is returned, regardless of before or after the magic number, he doesn't make the same money.

We went through this a couple months back on here with Steve Eminger as an example - it was outlined all in more detail there. (Maybe that was post board nuke...)

kutdacheez
10-03-2003, 08:13 AM
WHY in the FU*&$#G world would Craig low-ball MA that bad?
Whoops, I apologize for thinking this was just a little bit of negotiation tactics going on here . . . I didn't see anything on the base offer. Obviously, if it was that freaking low I can understand all these feelings.
What was the offer BTW? :dunno: How freaking low? :dunno I didn't see it.

I can only hope that Craig will come to his senses. I pray so. With all the hungry and critically sick in the world I was just wondering how far up the rating-scale prayer for CP to come to his senses carries! :D

However, this is just more proof of how instense Penguin fans really are, jhops!

I'm praying that someone is watching Mario's kids, myself! They could be be home alone. ;)

RyanM
10-03-2003, 10:46 AM
People, people, people. Relax!

This is a contract negotiation. Since nobody knows WHAT the offer was how do you know CP lowballed Fleury? My guess is that it was actually a respectable offer, but the agent, knowing he has more then 72 hours to make a deal decided to give himself more bargaining power and to get MAF out of Mario's house and back into his own where he'll have no contact with the owner of the team.

I think the agent did this also for the publicity this would get. But, I dont think Fleury will be unsigned at 4pm Monday afternoon. if he is, however, me and 4800 other Cape Bretoners will GLADLY welcome him back next Sunday.

Robert Paulson*
10-03-2003, 12:53 PM
This is bad news.. why in the world would Fleury pick Walsh as an agent? That Walsh character must be banished from NHL agency :rant: http://hfboards.com/images/smilies/angryfire.gif

CP better get crackin'. If he loses this prize then I will lose whatever little confidence I have for CP as a somewhat decent GM.

jhopspensfan
10-03-2003, 01:18 PM
Guys, I know how contract negotiations work. I took contracts in law school two years ago. HOWEVER, everyone here is waaaaay off when they say that this is an intricate, complicated, "typical" negotiation process. This process is a very atypical one. Let me break it down.

Of course we all know there is a base salary cap on entry level contracts which is determined by the league for first round picks. There is no doubt that this is not a sticking point here.

The bonuses on the other hand, are the problem. The key is very simple. #1 picks since Joe Thorton have all received EXTREMELY comparable bonus packages. Of course, the bonus structure, i.e., stats such as goals, +/- etc., for forwards is different from that of defensemen and goaltenders. Nevertheless, since 1997, the annual salaries of #1 picks overall, on average, have been very comparable. Thus, this is what it will cost to get Fleury. Period.

This situation is very different from contract negotiations/arbitration with "regular" NHL players. What I mean by regular, is players who have signed and played under professional contracts. Sure, in these negotiations there are approx 200-300 other NHL players which agents and GMs can base their salary beliefs on. In addition, and probably most important, the player has stats which can be analyzed and argued.

This is totally different from players signing their first professional contracts. What are you going to do- say Fleury had a worst goals against percentage in junior hockey than DiPietro did? Of course not. No one knows if an 18 or 19 year old will live up to his hype or not-see Alexander Daigle. Unfortunately, a GM cannot sign a #1 pick to an entry level contract only, and then give him bonuses down the road if he pans out. Instead, you just have to pay them the millions and then pray you get a return on your investment.

This is exactly my point. Craig Patrick knows what it costs to sign a #1 pick. Thus, this should be an easy contract process. No, there is not an exact dollar figure, so there will be some negotiations. However, don't send an offer to a #1 pick which isn't in the ballpark of what it should be. Yeah you guys are right. Can we really believe the comments of Walsh? Do we really know for a fact it was a low ball offer? The answer is no. But if you read Walsh's comments closely, he said that the offer wasn't even close. Do you really think if the offer was semi-reasonable that he would of moved Fleury out of Mario's house? Of course not.

I am a strong supporter of Craig Patrick. This time, however, he made a huge mistake.

Der Schweinehund
10-03-2003, 02:23 PM
Nevertheless, since 1997, the annual salaries of #1 picks overall, on average, have been very comparable. Thus, this is what it will cost to get Fleury. Period.

Absolutely - you are bang on. But how do you know absolutely definitively that CP didn't offer that 'comparible' salary anyhow?

As we are all aware there is a rookie BASE salary cap that restricts them. I have no doubt at all that the base was the maximum. On the bonuses - there is NO salary cap at all. I am absolutely positive that the debate is over the incentives.

Maybe the dollar value of the incentives is not the issue. Maybe the Pens are offering the 'market' value. However, perhaps the makeup of the incentives is in question. To the Pens Fleury will get $3-million if his SV% is above X, his GP is above Y, and his GAA is less than Z. To the agent, maybe Fleury makes $3-million if he dresses for A number of practices, does B photo shoots, and faces C shots.

However, I strongly expect that it is a combination of both dollar value and makeup of the incentives.

I mean seriously, to call CP stupid or he made a mistake is entirely inaccurate and rediculous. The fact remains, you have absolutely no idea what he presented. You are going strictly on the actions of one side - and those actions are pure posturing. And as RyanM very astutely pointed out, is the agent in a good bargaining position when his client is living in the Lion's den? God no. This isn't contract theory here - this is common sense and practicality. Something only mentors can teach! (That was for you Kut! :p )

Koltsov71
10-03-2003, 02:24 PM
like that crappy goalie Dipietro

You're definitely right about that one. :rolleyes:

jhopspensfan
10-03-2003, 03:51 PM
Absolutely - you are bang on. But how do you know absolutely definitively that CP didn't offer that 'comparible' salary anyhow?

As we are all aware there is a rookie BASE salary cap that restricts them. I have no doubt at all that the base was the maximum. On the bonuses - there is NO salary cap at all. I am absolutely positive that the debate is over the incentives.

Maybe the dollar value of the incentives is not the issue. Maybe the Pens are offering the 'market' value. However, perhaps the makeup of the incentives is in question. To the Pens Fleury will get $3-million if his SV% is above X, his GP is above Y, and his GAA is less than Z. To the agent, maybe Fleury makes $3-million if he dresses for A number of practices, does B photo shoots, and faces C shots.

However, I strongly expect that it is a combination of both dollar value and makeup of the incentives.

I mean seriously, to call CP stupid or he made a mistake is entirely
inaccurate and rediculous. The fact remains, you have absolutely no idea what he presented. You are going strictly on the actions of one side - and those actions are pure posturing. And as RyanM very astutely pointed out, is the agent in a good bargaining position when his client is living in the Lion's den? God no. This isn't contract theory here - this is common sense and practicality. Something only mentors can teach! (That was for you Kut! :p )

You make some good points about the fact that the sticking point could be differing views on statistics for Fleury to achieve.

HOWEVER, making an offer which caused Fleury to immediately take a plane back home is a mistake. Not only is it a slap in the face to Fleury, but it is a slap in the face to hundreds of thousands of Pens fans.

FanaticalFan
10-03-2003, 08:11 PM
Guys, I know how contract negotiations work. I took contracts in law school two years ago. HOWEVER, everyone here is waaaaay off when they say that this is an intricate, complicated, "typical" negotiation process. This process is a very atypical one. Let me break it down.

Of course we all know there is a base salary cap on entry level contracts which is determined by the league for first round picks. There is no doubt that this is not a sticking point here.

The bonuses on the other hand, are the problem. The key is very simple. #1 picks since Joe Thorton have all received EXTREMELY comparable bonus packages. Of course, the bonus structure, i.e., stats such as goals, +/- etc., for forwards is different from that of defensemen and goaltenders. Nevertheless, since 1997, the annual salaries of #1 picks overall, on average, have been very comparable. Thus, this is what it will cost to get Fleury. Period.

This situation is very different from contract negotiations/arbitration with "regular" NHL players. What I mean by regular, is players who have signed and played under professional contracts. Sure, in these negotiations there are approx 200-300 other NHL players which agents and GMs can base their salary beliefs on. In addition, and probably most important, the player has stats which can be analyzed and argued.

This is totally different from players signing their first professional contracts. What are you going to do- say Fleury had a worst goals against percentage in junior hockey than DiPietro did? Of course not. No one knows if an 18 or 19 year old will live up to his hype or not-see Alexander Daigle. Unfortunately, a GM cannot sign a #1 pick to an entry level contract only, and then give him bonuses down the road if he pans out. Instead, you just have to pay them the millions and then pray you get a return on your investment.

This is exactly my point. Craig Patrick knows what it costs to sign a #1 pick. Thus, this should be an easy contract process. No, there is not an exact dollar figure, so there will be some negotiations. However, don't send an offer to a #1 pick which isn't in the ballpark of what it should be. Yeah you guys are right. Can we really believe the comments of Walsh? Do we really know for a fact it was a low ball offer? The answer is no. But if you read Walsh's comments closely, he said that the offer wasn't even close. Do you really think if the offer was semi-reasonable that he would of moved Fleury out of Mario's house? Of course not.

I am a strong supporter of Craig Patrick. This time, however, he made a huge mistake.




I disagree that anything about this year’s contracts is an easy process. To compare previous years UFA to this year turns a blind eye to the decrease in money being offered. This is the current “Market”, because of the uncertainty with the upcoming CBA. GM’s are using this uncertainty to their advantage. To say the penguins should just write the check to Fleury that he should get the same type of contract DiPietro is not taking into account the current situation. As of today the Panthers and Hurricanes are both in the same situation. And neither seems to be backing down. Duddly as publicly stated several times that he is not going to offer Horton the type of bonuses that Thorton or Nash got, and I have read the same thing concerning Stael. If Carilina and Florida had just paid those contracts then that would affect the “market price for Fleury and that the pens could be “lowballing” Fleury. But why should the Pen’s just give Fleury those bonuses if nobody else was. The market has changed, and there is a chance that the next CBA the owners will eliminate all bonuses to entry-level payers. Rookies notoriously take it whenever a new CBA is created, since they have little or no voice. So right now there are substantial risks of millions at stake for a player returned unsigned to juniors both in bonises that may never be available and base salary. The risk to the pens is Fleury’s impending UFA if he is not signed, and there is no season next year. But then again there is just as much a possibility that that loophole is eliminated in the next CBA and you know CP will attempt to do just that. So as I see it nothing about the contract should be easy especially in the “current market”.

KungFuPenguin
10-03-2003, 09:31 PM
I dunno, I think CP might've been pretty clever here. Think about it. While Fleury's agents have caused a bit of a ruckus with their recent stunt, they've also pretty much laid all their cards on the table. They've used their one major trump card. In future negotiations, a prolonged hold-out would surely make even the most rabid CP detractor feel little sympathy for a teenage millionaire-to-be crying over getting a couple of hundred grand less than his agents think he's worth.

PecaFan
10-03-2003, 11:32 PM
HOWEVER, making an offer which caused Fleury to immediately take a plane back home is a mistake. Not only is it a slap in the face to Fleury, but it is a slap in the face to hundreds of thousands of Pens fans.

Just a note, but Walsh was on the radio today here in Vancouver. He said that after the Pens offer, he got on a conference call with Fleury and his parents, and recommended he go home. So it's not like Fleury was totally insulted by the offer, he's just doing what his agent tells him.

Walsh also said that the Pens think the upcoming CBA is going to change the types of deals rookies get, and made it pretty clear that the standard bonuses were not in the Pens offer.

iamcaper
10-04-2003, 08:03 AM
People, people, people. Relax!

me and 4800 other Cape Bretoners will GLADLY welcome him back next Sunday.


I'll second, third, and fourth that motion Ryan!!!!

Pensfan66
10-04-2003, 09:05 AM
All I gotta say is we better sign him. I read an article in the trib yesterday that said the organization owes us the fans the chance to know that they are serouis about winning. I completly agree, after all the crap we went through with trading Kovy and Jagr. I know we had to trade them, but this maybe CP last chance to redeem himself for the awful bust trades he has made. Can you imagine what would happen if we failed to sign him? CP can't blow it again.