panthers get shields

Club301
10-05-2003, 09:23 AM
http://www.floridapanthers.com/pressbox/news/ShieldsAcquired.shtml

Mogo
10-05-2003, 09:38 AM
ok... let's see... Hurme made 1,2M$ and was a good backup... Shields makes 1.2M$ per season... why??

PanthersRule96
10-05-2003, 09:43 AM
WTF? Hurme is way better than Shields. This is DUdley admitting that he screwed up. Horton will go back to juniors now.

Vincent Vega
10-05-2003, 09:43 AM
Because Dudley ****ed up and let Hurme go and he knew trying reaquire Hurme he would have to give up something but going after Shields he knew he could get him dirt dirt cheap.

Crossbar
10-05-2003, 12:45 PM
Dudley had the option to keep Hurme (you cannot lose 2 goalies in a draft but Dudley decided to let him go) so no he did not ******* up with losing Hurme, however he did not expect Mason to be taken so I think he did ******* up in that aspect.

Lloyd Braun
10-05-2003, 05:02 PM
Bruins picking up some of Shields's salary according to this link:

http://www.floridapanthers.com/pressbox/news/DudleyShieldsTranscript.shtml

Doesn't say how much though.

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-05-2003, 05:29 PM
Bruins picking up some of Shields's salary according to this link:

http://www.floridapanthers.com/pressbox/news/DudleyShieldsTranscript.shtml

Doesn't say how much though.


Longtime since i saw someone trying to spin a #%$#^#^ up as a planned event.

I mean lets be serious Hurme is probably worth atleast a 5th round draft pick (lowballing it a little too since he got traded for a 4th within minutes)

Only thing that stands out is poor asset management and that he got caught with his pants way way way down

Coolburn
10-05-2003, 05:44 PM
Longtime since i saw someone trying to spin a #%$#^#^ up as a planned event.

I mean lets be serious Hurme is probably worth atleast a 5th round draft pick (lowballing it a little too since he got traded for a 4th within minutes)

Only thing that stands out is poor asset management and that he got caught with his pants way way way downIts interesting how Dudley had an opportunity to protect Hurme again before he was claimed (thats why Dudley took a timeout at the waiver draft). While many may look at it as a **** up, Dudley made a choice and consulted Keenan before doing so. Hurme was just never going to get a chance with FL and its better for Jani, better for FL, and it works IMO.

panthersfan4ever
10-05-2003, 06:08 PM
Its interesting how Dudley had an opportunity to protect Hurme again before he was claimed (thats why Dudley took a timeout at the waiver draft). While many may look at it as a **** up, Dudley made a choice and consulted Keenan before doing so. Hurme was just never going to get a chance with FL and its better for Jani, better for FL, and it works IMO.

I'd have to agree with you RichPanther. I think it was a decent move. I would put Shields and Hurme on the same level.... perhaps giving Shields the edge. I remember watching him in the playoffs a couple years ago and he played pretty well as a starter. The question really is for both Shields and Hurme, can they stay sharpe on the bench?
I was very disappointed at what happened at the Waiver Draft. There's no excuse for not making the trade if they really wanted to get rid of Hurme. He could have gotten a draft pick at the least. It was a bad move. But I think the ultimate outcome will be fine.
If, (and I hope this doesn't happen), Luongo gets hurt, can Shields fill in? I think the answer is YES! Dudley dropped a little salary, from what I understand, and got a comparable goaltender. If Luongo plays 60 games, if Shields wins 6 of 12, I'd be thrilled.

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-05-2003, 06:18 PM
Its interesting how Dudley had an opportunity to protect Hurme again before he was claimed (thats why Dudley took a timeout at the waiver draft). While many may look at it as a **** up, Dudley made a choice and consulted Keenan before doing so. Hurme was just never going to get a chance with FL and its better for Jani, better for FL, and it works IMO.


A fit or not that is not the case, I thnk it is not to many days ago since i heard best 1-2 punch in the league is Luongo-Hurme

But the key here is Dudley lost an asset, you can say anything you want about Hurme not fitting in and what not but the fact is Hurme had an obvious tradevalue on the waiverdraft day since he infacto got traded for a 4th road pick. IMO there is no way to sugarcoat this pill it is a nasty bitter tasting pill.


Wouldnt a much more professional way of getting rid of Hurme been

Trade him to Atlanta for a 5th and get Sheilds for Future considerations?

And to be honest i wouldnt want Dudley to be GM of my worst enemy team and it isnt because i thnk he is good ;)

Rattrick
10-05-2003, 06:43 PM
Thank you Rich! :bow:

I knew some fans would start thinking logically at some point!

Heimy
10-05-2003, 07:03 PM
Its interesting how Dudley had an opportunity to protect Hurme again before he was claimed (thats why Dudley took a timeout at the waiver draft). While many may look at it as a **** up, Dudley made a choice and consulted Keenan before doing so. Hurme was just never going to get a chance with FL and its better for Jani, better for FL, and it works IMO.


Sorry Rich but I can't agree with you on this. Hurme had value and it was not extracted. That's poor asset management no matter how you slice it. Plus, if the worst case scenario unfolds and Luongo goes down for an extended period of time, we know Hurme thrives on steady work and would fill in very well.

It's common knowledge that goaltending is the most important position on a team. Dudley weakened ours. The fact that he did a decent job recovering after he stepped in it brings some comfort but doesn't entirely mask the odor.

petec1978*
10-05-2003, 07:11 PM
Ha! My goodness are you folks that devoted to Dudley that you're even willing to spend time rationalizing what obviously was a Titanic embarassment for the franchise? How, pray tell, is Florida better off from this transaction? Because it was the humanitarian thing to do?

Even if Boston picks up half of Sheilds' salary that's only 600K, which is likely not enough to pay for any of your three first rounders the team is trying to sign in of itself.

Steve Shields had a sub-.900 save percentage and a losing record on a playoff caliber team last season. On a lousy lottery team Hurme had a .907 save percentage and is three years younger than Shields, who is 31. Clearly, in my view, Hurme is the better commodity which is why giving him away, completely unnecessarily, to a division rival (Atlanta) while also freeing up an extra draft pick for another division rival (Carolina) is so incredibly dumb.

This is part of Rick Dudley's M.O. from the time he was in Tampa. He gets up against or over his budgetary restrictions and rather than calmly and rationally finding ways to trim the fat or to explain to ownership why carrying a player for a few extra dollars more is in the best interest of the franchise, he gets frustrated, throws up his hands, and does the first rash, stupid thing he can to get the money. That's why this man traded Adrian Aucoin for a bum like Mathieu Biron and a 2nd round pick. And its indefensible.

Its NEVER a good thing to get less than market value for a player. Its even worse to lose one unnecessarily for nothing, and to then have to sacrifice a draft pick to plug the hole left behind. How on earth you folks can say this is a "good thing" for your team is a smack in the face of logic and reason.

-Pete Choquette

panthersr#1
10-05-2003, 07:20 PM
so the guy made a mistake. was it mellanby for morrisett. prospal for johnson, boyle for a 5th rounder, so on and so forth. there isnt anyone that can tell me Hurme is better than Shields. Jani should be a number one goalie, but wasnt focused when he came in sparingly. Dudley wasnt expecting things to unfold the way they did. mistakes happen. if you were at the game the other night youd see a team that youd realise could beat anyone. the two games that they have won here, with the regulars in the lineup, were outstanding. they beat up the last two division champs handily. without bure,weiss, nedrost, kracijek,stewart or horton in the lineup. the games they lost in preseason was with the 2nd teamers. tampa was a little shell shocked at what they saw. wake up and smell the roses. this is the best team, by far, that we ever had here. and there just gonna get better. weve drafted well, signed everyone, didnt have a holdout, didnt lose a player to free agency. you guys cry over losing svidki. claim its because of payroll. well why the heck are they keeping Vanryn, who makes more than svidki. could have kept Paul that makes a million less. cause svidki cant crack our lineup. is that a bad thing? cant trade him, so you have to expose him, isnt that kinda simple? why does everyone have to think its a payroll thing??? you guys are stuck in some yesteryear mentality. cant figure out that were good yet? used to crying i guess...

PanthersRule96
10-05-2003, 07:39 PM
so the guy made a mistake. was it mellanby for morrisett. prospal for johnson, boyle for a 5th rounder, so on and so forth. there isnt anyone that can tell me Hurme is better than Shields. Jani should be a number one goalie, but wasnt focused when he came in sparingly. Dudley wasnt expecting things to unfold the way they did. mistakes happen. if you were at the game the other night youd see a team that youd realise could beat anyone. the two games that they have won here, with the regulars in the lineup, were outstanding. they beat up the last two division champs handily. without bure,weiss, nedrost, kracijek,stewart or horton in the lineup. the games they lost in preseason was with the 2nd teamers. tampa was a little shell shocked at what they saw. wake up and smell the roses. this is the best team, by far, that we ever had here. and there just gonna get better. weve drafted well, signed everyone, didnt have a holdout, didnt lose a player to free agency. you guys cry over losing svidki. claim its because of payroll. well why the heck are they keeping Vanryn, who makes more than svidki. could have kept Paul that makes a million less. cause svidki cant crack our lineup. is that a bad thing? cant trade him, so you have to expose him, isnt that kinda simple? why does everyone have to think its a payroll thing??? you guys are stuck in some yesteryear mentality. cant figure out that were good yet? used to crying i guess...

You forgot the :teach:

panthersr#1
10-05-2003, 07:44 PM
:teach:

justapantherfan
10-06-2003, 03:38 AM
ok... let's see... Hurme made 1,2M$ and was a good backup... Shields makes 1.2M$ per season... why??


Boston is picking up half of his salary.

Coolburn
10-06-2003, 04:18 AM
Seriously people...what do you think a 5th rounder is going to get you? At best a depth player for San Antonio. Look at how stacked on young talent we are and realize that now. I think we're completely set up the middle for yrs to come (even if we don't sign Taticek but I hope we do) with Horton, Weiss, Jokinen (if he stays at center), and Nedorost. We have some players that are basically NHL-ready in the minors too just waiting for their shot (Kolnik and a few that need another yr of seasoning). Its not like we could have acquired a top line LW for Hurme. Has Hurme played well when limited to only a few games? No, he's pretty much sucked more than Shields (who is more suited to a backup role). My gripe isn't about losing Hurme at all because I still think its better for Jani (he'll get a shot at a starting job that he deserves), it works out better for FL by trimming off his salary (not just for this yr but the rest of his contract), and makes more sense to do this now. What my only gripe about the whole waiver draft thing is losing Mason. He played better and should've been protected if they were more impressed with him than Hurme. The only bad asset management that I see is not hanging on to Mason. I fully expect Dudley to be scouting goaltenders this yr in juniors to pick one for backing up Luongo in the future. That would probably be the only thing that would've benefitted from trading Hurme is getting the pick that would select the next backup. There's just an overabundance of goaltenders out there right now and I think Dudley believed that there were better tenders than Jani available (and I agree with that too).

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-06-2003, 10:56 AM
Seriously people...what do you think a 5th rounder is going to get you? At best a depth player for San Antonio. Look at how stacked on young talent we are and realize that now. I think we're completely set up the middle for yrs to come (even if we don't sign Taticek but I hope we do) with Horton, Weiss, Jokinen (if he stays at center), and Nedorost. We have some players that are basically NHL-ready in the minors too just waiting for their shot (Kolnik and a few that need another yr of seasoning). Its not like we could have acquired a top line LW for Hurme. Has Hurme played well when limited to only a few games? No, he's pretty much sucked more than Shields (who is more suited to a backup role). My gripe isn't about losing Hurme at all because I still think its better for Jani (he'll get a shot at a starting job that he deserves), it works out better for FL by trimming off his salary (not just for this yr but the rest of his contract), and makes more sense to do this now. What my only gripe about the whole waiver draft thing is losing Mason. He played better and should've been protected if they were more impressed with him than Hurme. The only bad asset management that I see is not hanging on to Mason. I fully expect Dudley to be scouting goaltenders this yr in juniors to pick one for backing up Luongo in the future. That would probably be the only thing that would've benefitted from trading Hurme is getting the pick that would select the next backup. There's just an overabundance of goaltenders out there right now and I think Dudley believed that there were better tenders than Jani available (and I agree with that too).

pluheze. If you are that filled up on prospects that you dont even need a 4th 5th rounder anymore please send Tampa some or i am 100% certain there is 29 other real GM's that would truly enjoy having an assest in a 4th round pick. There is just no way you can sugarcoat
this mess IMO

Clash*
10-06-2003, 01:34 PM
pluheze. If you are that filled up on prospects that you dont even need a 4th 5th rounder anymore please send Tampa some or i am 100% certain there is 29 other real GM's that would truly enjoy having an assest in a 4th round pick. There is just no way you can sugarcoat
this mess IMO
Dude, Rich has it right. Florida has a top five or six organizational depth chart for prospects. You're just jealous that you have Feaster who traded away Pitkanen for Fedotenko, Adam Heinrich and jack squat else. What happened to Tampa's two second round picks they acquired in that trade, cause they didn't use two second round picks last year. Dudley knows the value of his draft picks and how to use them. Why else would someone like Brian Burke call him "Yoda, Master of the Draft". Feaster has squandered Tampa's picks for marginal players for now. So don't even try and bring that crap here.

Rattrick
10-06-2003, 01:50 PM
Do we HAVE to start this Dudley/Tampa/Florida argument again? Every major aspect of your team was brought into the organization by Dudley. Face the facts, and quit whinning about your boy Vinny!

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-06-2003, 02:23 PM
Dude, Rich has it right. Florida has a top five or six organizational depth chart for prospects. You're just jealous that you have Feaster who traded away Pitkanen for Fedotenko, Adam Heinrich and jack squat else. What happened to Tampa's two second round picks they acquired in that trade, cause they didn't use two second round picks last year. Dudley knows the value of his draft picks and how to use them. Why else would someone like Brian Burke call him "Yoda, Master of the Draft". Feaster has squandered Tampa's picks for marginal players for now. So don't even try and bring that crap here.



If he is the master of the draft like you say why why why dont he like a 4th round pick?? I mean he is da Yoda of the draft. Just imagine how he could find with that 4th rounder he lost for nothing

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-06-2003, 02:30 PM
Do we HAVE to start this Dudley/Tampa/Florida argument again? Every major aspect of your team was brought into the organization by Dudley. Face the facts, and quit whinning about your boy Vinny!


For your info every major part of this team is dating back to Espo's days

Heimy
10-06-2003, 03:22 PM
I find it a bit discomforting to see Dudley being defended when he really did screw the pooch on this. Dudley even admitted he blew it. Now he's quickly done a decent job of recovering so I'm ready to move on...but I will not forgive him so easily. He pissed away 2 valuable assets.

And you bolt fans hopefully have sense enough to know the sun don't shine on the same dogs arse all the time. Let's stop the taunting and let the boys settle things on the ice eh?

Clash*
10-06-2003, 07:19 PM
If he is the master of the draft like you say why why why dont he like a 4th round pick?? I mean he is da Yoda of the draft. Just imagine how he could find with that 4th rounder he lost for nothing
If ya want the real story,...

Hurme' wasn't exposed to hopefully save some trade value. Mason was with the thought that he wouldn't get picked up, but Nashville was desperate for a back-up to Vokoun and Duds figured Lasak would get the job (but Lasak sucks or something to that effect). Dudley should have traded Hurme before the draft, but couldn't do so durin the draft, as there was a trade freeze. Once someone drafts a player, they can then trade that player. Hurme' didn't have the fourth roound pick value comin from Florida, like he did comin from Atlanta. The Thrash weren't in need of a goalie, but like the WC tandem they saw last year (Nurminen and Hurme') with the hopes of tradin Dafoe and his contract. They weren't goin to trade with Florida for him, or he'd have been gone already. The Thrash tried to draft Hurme' but weren't allowed to in the first round. Carolina did them a favor and got the pick. Big difference.

MoeHowardDavid
10-06-2003, 08:00 PM
If he is the master of the draft like you say why why why dont he like a 4th round pick?? I mean he is da Yoda of the draft. Just imagine how he could find with that 4th rounder he lost for nothing

Isn't saving a guy like Bednar worth more than a 4th round pick? Or am I not thinking right?

petec1978*
10-06-2003, 09:34 PM
Every major aspect of your team was brought into the organization by Dudley.

With all due respect, he inherited Vincent Lecavalier and Brad Richards, which is the axis around which the Lightning's future will turn, from Espo/Demers. He also inherited Pavel Kubina and Jassen Cullimore which are two of the team's top four defensemen from Espo/Demers as well.

If it makes you feel better to deride Jay Feaster for the Ruslan Fedotenko deal, be my guest... it wasn't his finest hour. But don't you even dare try to use it to pump up Dudley. As bad as that deal was, it was still better than when Dudley dealt off the #1 pick overall in 1999 and the #5 overall in 2000 COMBINED. Know how much production Tampa Bay got from the descendents from those two deals last season?

Dudley's Lottery Pick Trades in Tampa:
1999 #1 Overall Pick----> 4 goals, 6 points production (Alexeev)
2000 #5 Overall Pick----> 2 goals, 3 points production (Dingman)

Feaster's Lottery Pick Trade in Tampa:
2002 #4 Overall Pick----> 20 goals, 47 points production (Fedotenko, Lukowich)

Hmmmm, 9 points or 47? You decide Panther fans.

I mean he is da Yoda of the draft.

He's the Yoda of the Draft because he's picking on the front row every year. He hasn't mastered that whole "winning" thing.

I find it a bit discomforting to see Dudley being defended when he really did screw the pooch on this. Dudley even admitted he blew it. Now he's quickly done a decent job of recovering so I'm ready to move on...but I will not forgive him so easily. He pissed away 2 valuable assets.

The voice of reason.

And you bolt fans hopefully have sense enough to know the sun don't shine on the same dogs arse all the time.

We also know the end result of carrying Dudley as your GM for longer than about 3 years is a team that looks and plays like a dog's arse and will do so in perpetuity as a result of the neverending downward spiral of rash trades of proven or emerging talent for more and more prospects and picks making EVERY year a rebuilding year!

-Pete Choquette

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-06-2003, 11:10 PM
I find it a bit discomforting to see Dudley being defended when he really did screw the pooch on this. Dudley even admitted he blew it. Now he's quickly done a decent job of recovering so I'm ready to move on...but I will not forgive him so easily. He pissed away 2 valuable assets.

And you bolt fans hopefully have sense enough to know the sun don't shine on the same dogs arse all the time. Let's stop the taunting and let the boys settle things on the ice eh?


I have to agree with you. Just wish they would drop the damn puck NOW offseason have been long enough already

Captain8
10-07-2003, 08:48 AM
With all due respect, he inherited Vincent Lecavalier and Brad Richards, which is the axis around which the Lightning's future will turn, from Espo/Demers. He also inherited Pavel Kubina and Jassen Cullimore which are two of the team's top four defensemen from Espo/Demers as well.

If it makes you feel better to deride Jay Feaster for the Ruslan Fedotenko deal, be my guest... it wasn't his finest hour. But don't you even dare try to use it to pump up Dudley. As bad as that deal was, it was still better than when Dudley dealt off the #1 pick overall in 1999 and the #5 overall in 2000 COMBINED. Know how much production Tampa Bay got from the descendents from those two deals last season?

Dudley's Lottery Pick Trades in Tampa:
1999 #1 Overall Pick----> 4 goals, 6 points production (Alexeev)
2000 #5 Overall Pick----> 2 goals, 3 points production (Dingman)

Feaster's Lottery Pick Trade in Tampa:
2002 #4 Overall Pick----> 20 goals, 47 points production (Fedotenko, Lukowich)

Hmmmm, 9 points or 47? You decide Panther fans.



He's the Yoda of the Draft because he's picking on the front row every year. He hasn't mastered that whole "winning" thing.



The voice of reason.



We also know the end result of carrying Dudley as your GM for longer than about 3 years is a team that looks and plays like a dog's arse and will do so in perpetuity as a result of the neverending downward spiral of rash trades of proven or emerging talent for more and more prospects and picks making EVERY year a rebuilding year!

-Pete Choquette

As someone who has criticized Dudley and is continuing to watch his moves with a critical eye, I think you're shortchanging him with respect to some of the moves he did make to make Tampa better in the short term -- Khabibulin, Boyle, Modin, Prospal, Andreychuk.

But I can't make a case for him being a draft guru. His record isn't yet mature enough to make any definitive statements. And yes, he has had the luxury of having inherited high draft picks and the luxury of making high selections.

Also keep in mind that a GM's reputation as one who prefers shuffling prospects instead of making more substantive deals largely depends on the ownership. As much as I suspect Dudley of being more apt to do the former, I can't really fault him for failing to do the latter until he has a bigger budget to work with.

flyercide
10-07-2003, 09:12 AM
I am pretty shocked the Panthers lost Hurme for nothing. Dudley did great with asset management last season surprised he just dumped him for nothing. Hurme played solid hockey last year for the club. To lose him for nothing is just shocking no better word for it.

Anyways, I do have a question... did Shields play in Boston when Keenan was there? I am sure Shields will play fine as a backup but I'd rather have Hurme who has the potential to to be starter on regular basis than a backup.

petec1978*
10-07-2003, 09:20 AM
As someone who has criticized Dudley and is continuing to watch his moves with a critical eye, I think you're shortchanging him with respect to some of the moves he did make to make Tampa better in the short term -- Khabibulin, Boyle, Modin, Prospal, Andreychuk.

To which my response has always been:

1.) The Khabibulin deal made itself. Cliff Fletcher was a former advisor in the Lightning organization to Jacques Demers. When Dudley took over in Tampa, Fletcher eventually left to go to Phoenix where he was acting GM. Fletcher wanted Paul Mara who, btw, was also inherited by Dudley. He wanted Mara badly. The rest of the deal was working out the sweetener, and that only took a car ride apparently to the GM's meetings to complete. Anyone who think there was some sort of master stroke by Dudley there doesn't know the details of the transaction. The master stroke was actually Khabi's contract, which was negotiated by then assistant-GM Jay Feaster, oh by the way.

In addition, bear in mind this is the same Rick Dudley who tried and failed for 2-1/2 years to solve the goaltending problem in Tampa on the cheap with young players like Cloutier and Weekes rather than a proven NHL commodity. We suffered because of the hackney way Dudley was trying to plug the hole at the position. Surely a "genius" such as Dudley would've known better than to put 24-25 year old netminders behind a defense headlined by 21-24 year olds. Right? Except that's exactly what Rick Dudley, in his immortal "genius" did. Ever notice how the faces Luongo is playing behind keep getting younger and younger, oh by the way?

2.) You left out Marty St. Louis. And my response to that is simple: for every St. Louis or Boyle there are three Todd Warriners, Yogi Svejkovskys, Bryan Muirs, Kristian Kudrocs etc who busted here in Tampa. That's what's so laughable watching Panthers fans every time Dudley brings in a Nederost or a Biron. You don't understand there was a 50-66% failure rate on prospects Dudley brought into Tampa because he has little clue how to develop them properly. Specifically, he tends to rush players to the NHL too quickly, meaning only the most bust-proof of prospects like Brad Richards can survive. AND, he throws all the young players together without adequate veteran mentorship, which leads to the blind following the blind out on the ice.

This leads to impatience by Dudley. Impatience which eventually manifests itself in stupidity. Stupidity like oh, say, trying to trade Vincent Lecavalier for instance. Maybe Mike Keenan can be the developer of talent that Dudley isn't, but if not, you'd better hope Bouwmeester doesn't ever stumble along the way or Dudley will try to move him for more picks/prospects too. He's trade his momma for a 2nd round pick, don't ever forget that.

3.) John Tucker had as much influence on Dave Andreychuk's decision as Rick Dudley did, I hate to tell you.

As much as I suspect Dudley of being more apt to do the former, I can't really fault him for failing to do the latter until he has a bigger budget to work with.

Two words: Jay Feaster. Same low budget in Tampa. Different results because he hasn't shuffled the deck every 6 months.

Dudley can't keep his fingers off of the team. That's why your best bet is to allow him to amass a pile of talent for 3 years and then push him out like Tampa did and find someone willing to then be hands off to take over. That will then allow a core to emerge from the pile of young talent which will gel and become a playoff caliber team... this whole last step being something Rick Dudley is entirely clueless about.

-Pete Choquette

Captain8
10-07-2003, 09:28 AM
I am pretty shocked the Panthers lost Hurme for nothing. Dudley did great with asset management last season surprised he just dumped him for nothing. Hurme played solid hockey last year for the club. To lose him for nothing is just shocking no better word for it.

Anyways, I do have a question... did Shields play in Boston when Keenan was there? I am sure Shields will play fine as a backup but I'd rather have Hurme who has the potential to to be starter on regular basis than a backup.

Well, the asset managment has been suspect and I think it's an organizational problem wherein Dudley is undeniably a key player, but is definitely not the only culprit. Cohen and Keenan figure into this issue a great deal. And by extension, so does the Murray/Huizenga regime.

Keenan and Shields never crossed paths. And if things go as expected, they won't be crossing paths much this year, especially if the Panthers have not improved in both the amount of shots and the amount of quality scoring chances they give up. Throughout his career, Shields has performed steadily behind solid defensive teams that allow him to play predictable angles, but has looked shaky otherwise.

Captain8
10-07-2003, 09:55 AM
To which my response has always been:

1.) The Khabibulin deal made itself. Cliff Fletcher was a former advisor in the Lightning organization to Jacques Demers. When Dudley took over in Tampa, Fletcher eventually left to go to Phoenix where he was acting GM. Fletcher wanted Paul Mara who, btw, was also inherited by Dudley. He wanted Mara badly. The rest of the deal was working out the sweetener, and that only took a car ride apparently to the GM's meetings to complete. Anyone who think there was some sort of master stroke by Dudley there doesn't know the details of the transaction. The master stroke was actually Khabi's contract, which was negotiated by then assistant-GM Jay Feaster, oh by the way.

In addition, bear in mind this is the same Rick Dudley who tried and failed for 2-1/2 years to solve the goaltending problem in Tampa on the cheap with young players like Cloutier and Weekes rather than a proven NHL commodity. We suffered because of the hackney way Dudley was trying to plug the hole at the position. Surely a "genius" such as Dudley would've known better than to put 24-25 year old netminders behind a defense headlined by 21-24 year olds. Right? Except that's exactly what Rick Dudley, in his immortal "genius" did. Ever notice how the faces Luongo is playing behind keep getting younger and younger, oh by the way?

2.) You left out Marty St. Louis. And my response to that is simple: for every St. Louis or Boyle there are three Todd Warriners, Yogi Svejkovskys, Bryan Muirs, Kristian Kudrocs etc who busted here in Tampa. That's what's so laughable watching Panthers fans every time Dudley brings in a Nederost or a Biron. You don't understand there was a 50-66% failure rate on prospects Dudley brought into Tampa because he has little clue how to develop them properly. Specifically, he tends to rush players to the NHL too quickly, meaning only the most bust-proof of prospects like Brad Richards can survive. AND, he throws all the young players together without adequate veteran mentorship, which leads to the blind following the blind out on the ice.

This leads to impatience by Dudley. Impatience which eventually manifests itself in stupidity. Stupidity like oh, say, trying to trade Vincent Lecavalier for instance. Maybe Mike Keenan can be the developer of talent that Dudley isn't, but if not, you'd better hope Bouwmeester doesn't ever stumble along the way or Dudley will try to move him for more picks/prospects too. He's trade his momma for a 2nd round pick, don't ever forget that.

3.) John Tucker had as much influence on Dave Andreychuk's decision as Rick Dudley did, I hate to tell you.



Two words: Jay Feaster. Same low budget in Tampa. Different results because he hasn't shuffled the deck every 6 months.

Dudley can't keep his fingers off of the team. That's why your best bet is to allow him to amass a pile of talent for 3 years and then push him out like Tampa did and find someone willing to then be hands off to take over. That will then allow a core to emerge from the pile of young talent which will gel and become a playoff caliber team... this whole last step being something Rick Dudley is entirely clueless about.

-Pete Choquette

I basically echoed these criticisms throughout the offseason, when I stated that Dudley was full of it for saying that the Panthers had one of the most talented teams in hockey. And I insisted that quality veterans needed to be added to support the youth. And I took him to task for the mostly third-rate stuff he landed in the Ozolinsh/Yushkevich deals, which only diluted the talent base and left youngsters like J Bo and Biron hung out to dry, an error he may have compunded by trading Majesky. And I took issue with the way he ran this year's camp. By and large, the essence of my criticism is similar to yours. And even though it became clear that money would be an issue, I also said that if Dudley was following some sort of five-year plan, then he wouldn't be around to see it through.

But Dudley has made a number of positive acquisitions during his tenure in Florida, just as he has during his time in Tampa. He may be impatient to a large degree, but he's fighting the odds imposed by his circumstances. The failure rate you allude to is nothing unexpected when you're dealing with prospects. If you can't pay for a proven commodity, then you have to pursue other alternatives that have a lesser chance of panning out.

Ultimately, though, I think Dudley may be a better assistant GM than a number one man. But with Keenan and Cohen in his way, he's not getting a chance to succeed or fail based on his own merit.

Rattrick
10-07-2003, 11:13 AM
Comparing Alexeev to Fedotenko is ridiculous! Alexeev is 21 years old and hasn't even developed.

You want to discount the trial and error methods which resulted in some players not working out, but in the end, did he not bring in the players?? Yes He Did! END OF STORY

petec1978*
10-07-2003, 11:29 AM
Comparing Alexeev to Fedotenko is ridiculous!

Alexeev has scored less points in his ENTIRE CAREER than Fedotenko did last season alone.

Anyway, you're missing the point. When your GM trades the #1 overall pick you should have more than 6 points of production left from the deal just 3 years later. True?

but in the end, did he not bring in the players??

He did not. What part of "He inherited Lecavalier, Richards, Kubina, and Cullimore." don't you understand?

And while you deride the trade, there is no doubt that Feaster acquisitions like Fedotenko, Lukowich, Roy, and Grahame were key to the Lightning's division title run.

-Pete Choquette

Rattrick
10-07-2003, 11:43 AM
Alexeev has scored less points in his ENTIRE CAREER than Fedotenko did last season alone.

Anyway, you're missing the point. When your GM trades the #1 overall pick you should have more than 6 points of production left from the deal just 3 years later. True?



He did not. What part of "He inherited Lecavalier, Richards, Kubina, and Cullimore." don't you understand?

And while you deride the trade, there is no doubt that Feaster acquisitions like Fedotenko, Lukowich, Roy, and Grahame were key to the Lightning's division title run.

-Pete Choquette
That is the funniest thing I have ever heard in my life!

Fedotenko, Lukowich, Roy, and Grahame <<<<<<<< Khabibulin
Fedotenko, Lukowich, Roy, and Grahame <<<<<<<< Prospal
Fedotenko, Lukowich, Roy, and Grahame <<<<<<<< Boyle
Fedotenko, Lukowich, Roy, and Grahame <<<<<<<< St. Louis

As a matter of a fact, only Lecavalier or Richards challenge the importance of the Dudley acquisitions. Also, Alexeev has only played two partial seasons, and will definately develop into a better player.

Takkie
10-07-2003, 12:23 PM
i just hope he keeps this team together, and doesnt trade for more prospects.

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-07-2003, 12:59 PM
i just hope he keeps this team together, and doesnt trade for more prospects.


One can always hope but i wouldnt bet on that one with the trackrecord he have. Once he have felt in love with a prospect he can never let it go even if it is a bust. See Biron and Kudroc.

Chaos2k7
10-07-2003, 01:02 PM
One can always hope but i wouldnt bet on that one with the trackrecord he have. Once he have felt in love with a prospect he can never let it go even if it is a bust. See Biron and Kudroc.

Or Boyle, St. Louis, Prospal (Last Year), etc.? Sometimes all players need is a change of scenery. I would've thought that since most of your team have been consisted of cast-offs for years that you fans would have a little more understanding of how the development of players works.

:rolleyes:

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-07-2003, 02:24 PM
That is the funniest thing I have ever heard in my life!

Fedotenko, Lukowich, Roy, and Grahame <<<<<<<< Khabibulin
Fedotenko, Lukowich, Roy, and Grahame <<<<<<<< Prospal
Fedotenko, Lukowich, Roy, and Grahame <<<<<<<< Boyle
Fedotenko, Lukowich, Roy, and Grahame <<<<<<<< St. Louis

As a matter of a fact, only Lecavalier or Richards challenge the importance of the Dudley acquisitions. Also, Alexeev has only played two partial seasons, and will definately develop into a better player.


For your info the key part of the Khabibulin trade was Paul Mara and the rest around it is sweeteners to get the deal done.

M. Nylander >>>>>>>>> Muir, Simpson

3rd round pick>>>>>>>> Todd Warriner

3rd,7th>>>>>> svejkovsky who?

Barnaby>>>>>>> ciger

Later Muir gives you an 8th round pick and Simpson is released to
UFA on Jul 1st


And these are just a couple from the top of my head, You starting to see a pattern that i do?


Thing is numerous of his deals are emergency patch work to try to fill up the booboo he made the day before

Rattrick
10-07-2003, 04:07 PM
For your info the key part of the Khabibulin trade was Paul Mara and the rest around it is sweeteners to get the deal done.

M. Nylander >>>>>>>>> Muir, Simpson

3rd round pick>>>>>>>> Todd Warriner

3rd,7th>>>>>> svejkovsky who?

Barnaby>>>>>>> ciger

Later Muir gives you an 8th round pick and Simpson is released to
UFA on Jul 1st


And these are just a couple from the top of my head, You starting to see a pattern that i do?


Thing is numerous of his deals are emergency patch work to try to fill up the booboo he made the day before

Okay, I think the trades you have shown are about 5% as valuable as everything Dudley brought in. You've got about 80 more trades to equal things out. Keep em' coming!

Crossbar
10-07-2003, 04:22 PM
Even Feaster knows TB was built by Dudley and he still crys about it in the newspapers. Dudley brought in Khabibulin, Andreychuk, Prospal, Boyle, St.Louis, Modin, Clymer, Sarich, and Taylor these guys are all big time contributers to TB and I'll even argue Andre Roy was someone Dudley had set on the table to bring in since he was one of Dudley's acquisitions in Ottawa. If Dudley did not get rid of Sillinger (who has always been a minus the last couple years to now) you would not be talking about Richards as much because he would never have got a chance to fully blossem into the player he is today. Also Dudley was trying to honor Vinny's *TRADE REQUEST*, its no different than the situation with Comrie so don't even start! You complain about Aucoin? You could have been set on D for years with Joni Pitkanen so your bashing of Dudley is laughable and Dudley also brought in your current coach so keep thinking Feaster is a great GM.

Chaos2k7
10-07-2003, 04:41 PM
I'll tell you what. You're right. Go to bed tonight knowing that your rival has the worst GM in the NHL.

:handclap:

But, when this team comes to Tampa Bay and blows the doors off your team, game, after game, year, after year... Rest knowing that it was the exact same man that built your franchise and then destroyed you from down the interstate.

But no, your right Dudley is crap.

:rolleyes:

See your team soon enough, boys.

:teach:

Crossbar
10-07-2003, 04:54 PM
Hey is getting rid of Hurme and replacing him with Shields any different than Feaster getting rid of Prospal and replacing him with Stillman? :joker: At least Dudley isn't so desperate for players that he trys to luck in by bringing in St.Louis' former linemate what happened to all that depth Feaster brought in? ;)

Rattrick
10-07-2003, 05:27 PM
In defense of the Vinny trade request, there are many stories regarding exactly what happened. The truth of the matter is that nobody knows for sure if he requested a trade or not.

Good point about the Hurme/Prospal comparison. Also a good job pointing out that they were complaining that Dudley "ruined their defense" when their horrible GM lost the opportunity to draft IMO, the second best defensive prospect in the NHL (2nd to JBo of course).

petec1978*
10-07-2003, 07:53 PM
Even Feaster knows TB was built by Dudley and he still crys about it in the newspapers.

Links? Quotes? Evidence? None. You're pulling this one out of your *** Panthers fan.

and I'll even argue Andre Roy was someone Dudley had set on the table to bring in since he was one of Dudley's acquisitions in Ottawa.

One he was always COMPLETELY UNABLE to get whilst in Tampa. Feaster stepped in and got him for the low low price of Juha Ylonen within his first 60 days in the job. That's right, Feaster accomplished in under 60 days what Dudley couldn't in over 2-1/2 years.

If Dudley did not get rid of Sillinger (who has always been a minus the last couple years to now) you would not be talking about Richards as much because he would never have got a chance to fully blossem into the player he is today.

Oh my Lord!

Rick Dudley almost didn't even sign Brad Richards. Had not Richards dominated the Memorial Cup finals he would've been allowed to re-enter the draft because Dudley had such a major bias against draft picks that came from the previous regime. What a HORRIBLY pathetic little bout of revisionist history this little nugget of wisdom you plooped is!

Also Dudley was trying to honor Vinny's *TRADE REQUEST*,

Which is like treating the symptoms instead of the disease. It was FEASTER who threw the gauntlet down on Tortorella about bashing Lecavalier in the media and THAT was the turning point in the relationship between the Lightning and Lecavalier. Dudley was either TOO STUPID or too much of a COWARD to stand up to Coach Tortorella... and instead decided it would be a smart thing to give away one of the 10 best young talents in the game. Bravo Dudley! What a "genius" indeed!

You complain about Aucoin? You could have been set on D for years with Joni Pitkanen

We won a DIVISION TITLE in part because of the depth brought in for that trade. Tell me Panthers fan, how many DIVISION TITLES has Dudley won between Tampa and the Panthers? In how many years?

Feaster is 1-for-1 in full seasons he's presided over. So deride that deal all you want... but he got RESULTS from that trade. Dudley's two trades of high picks amounted in basically a hill full of squat so far.

Hey is getting rid of Hurme and replacing him with Shields any different than Feaster getting rid of Prospal and replacing him with Stillman?

Yes. Stillman has always been a better goalscorer throughout his career and has been a more consistent producer year to year than Prospal ever has been. You can make the honest argument that Stillman could be an upgrade over Prospal.

Shields is an older, less accomplished, journeyman goaltender who has failed everywhere he's gone now. Was he worth a better young netminder who many of you admit could be a starter somewhere in the near future? Rhetorical question Panthers fan.

At least Dudley isn't so desperate for players that he trys to luck in by bringing in St.Louis' former linemate what happened to all that depth Feaster brought in?

They now have Alex Svitov, Jimmie Olvestad, Shane Willis, and Nikita Alexeev all sitting in the minors and all of whom have played at least 60 games in the NHL. IN THE MINORS. If you can't see that as depth, then you're completely blind! And that's not even to mention two guys who were top flight scorers in the Finnish league like Perrin and Somervuori who could also be early callups too.

Do you have depth like that Panthers fan? Not PROSPECTS, legitimate NHL or European pro proven players 6 deep who you can recall on a moments notice. Do you? No? Then shoosh.

Also a good job pointing out that they were complaining that Dudley "ruined their defense" when their horrible GM lost the opportunity to draft IMO, the second best defensive prospect in the NHL (2nd to JBo of course).

Tell me something, how many 19 year old prospect d-men make an all-star caliber impact their first year? Can play 30 minutes a night when asked? Can get 30 points and play the power play on the first unit? Today, right now, in the present, with the Lightning as DIVISION CHAMPIONS looking into move into the elite level of teams, I'd rather have Adrian Aucoin than the promise of Pitkanen which might only be realized 4-5 years off into the distant future.

But that's the bill of good Dudley sells you Panthers fans, and you buy it don't you? Prospects, prospects, prospects. Why WIN today when you can be perpetually building for a tomorrow that may never come?

Just remember Panthers fans, when you sit here and smugly talk about a Bouwmeester, or even a Pitkanen, that for every Cory Sarich who made it in Tampa Bay (and only after 3 years of painful development btw) there are two Kristian Kudrocs, Mathieu Birons, Bryan Muirs, Sascha Gocs, Paul Maras, and Josef Boumediennes, all of whom have Dudley to thank for in some case the stunting and in others for the ruination of their careers.

So you go rah rah about how Rick Dudley is SO smart for piling prospects and picks, and you try to paint Jay Feaster as an idiot for going after NHL talent instead... but just remember which one of our teams is raising a championship banner on opening night too.

-Pete Choquette

panthersr#1
10-07-2003, 08:17 PM
you lose your credibility when you defend the pitkanin deal, even if it is by comparing it to the aucoin deal. we arent defending the aucoin deal. the fact is that feaster hasnt made any good deals and the only one he sort of made was that trade. so as a percentage, unbelievably bad deals/deals you should be scared to death.

Rattrick
10-08-2003, 03:37 AM
I will have time to make a more complete post on this later, but I hate to break the news that a GM can't make that quick of an impact to help you win the division. Feaster didn't do squat to make you win that division, and he was only there a little while before you won it. Once again, remove the blindfold.

Also, you have it backwards. For every Paul Mara, there are two Andreas Lilja's. :bow:

Acadmus
10-08-2003, 04:31 AM
Didn't see the start of this thread, but a point on one quoted segment:

Feaster didn't bring in Eric Perrin out of desperation, he did it because Martin St. Louis lobbied for him. Then he and Perrin spent the whole summer up here in Burlington, VT, trying to get Eric ready for training camp. Regardless, he's a step closer to the NHL now than he was last year, and he can still improve enough to make it possibly next year. It's been a while, but if St. Louis and Perrin ever do get teamed up...you can't believe the chemistry these two had in college and when they were together in Cleveland's old IHL franchise prior to the Flames picking up St. Louis.

Perrin actually was doing well in the I, incidentally, until a major trade sent him and almost half the Cleveland team to the IHL's Quebec franchise, which folded at the end of that season. He then bounced to Kansas City, but after another couple of seasons the entire league folded. That's why he ended up in Europe.

Chaos2k7
10-08-2003, 04:44 AM
Sorry, but 60 games in the league is far from proven talent in the NHL..

:rolleyes:

Why fight it?

You know we suck. Leave it be.

Why don't you ask Feaster were your whole minor league system is?

Oh but we can drop 6 guys a piece on 2-3 teams playing and coached by different organizations. That doesn't help develop your prospects.

Weiss 23 points = Svitov 8 points...

:lol:

8 points = NHL regular, proven depth forward...

Good job at producing fourth line forwards froma top 3 draft pick. Kudos to you.

Coolburn
10-08-2003, 04:45 AM
We won a DIVISION TITLE in part because of the depth brought in for that trade. Tell me Panthers fan, how many DIVISION TITLES has Dudley won between Tampa and the Panthers? In how many years?

Feaster is 1-for-1 in full seasons he's presided over. So deride that deal all you want... but he got RESULTS from that trade. Dudley's two trades of high picks amounted in basically a hill full of squat so far.Remember, FL has won a division title as well as a conference title. And its possible, like that team, to fall from grace. Don't think its a guarantee that TB is just automatically going back to the playoffs. While Fedotenko is a nice player to have, I don't think you can argue he was worth more than Pitkanen (even if you add in those picks). I think in a few yrs, TB fans will complain about that deal...just IMO.Yes. Stillman has always been a better goalscorer throughout his career and has been a more consistent producer year to year than Prospal ever has been. You can make the honest argument that Stillman could be an upgrade over Prospal.

Shields is an older, less accomplished, journeyman goaltender who has failed everywhere he's gone now. Was he worth a better young netminder who many of you admit could be a starter somewhere in the near future? Rhetorical question Panthers fan.Please don't tell me that you think Stillman is going to lead your team in points this yr? Thats not to say that Stillman isn't a good player and he has been consistent. But there is no argument you can make that says Stillman is an upgrade in the pt production dept (while maybe Stillman is better defensively but I never thought TB was that bad defensively so I don't see the logic).

The whole thing with Hurme had to due with the fact that he would be a better starter than a backup. It has been documented that his last 8 games (where he wasn't getting consistent starts) last yr, he was winless. Considering FL missed the playoffs by 15 pts last yr, getting points in those games would've been huge. But when Hurme was getting regular starts because Luongo was injured, he played well. Its a gamble to not have Hurme if Luongo goes down but its also a gamble to stick Hurme in if he's not playing in games consistently. Plus, Sheilds is cheaper, shorter of a contract and plays a similar style to Luongo so the defense doesn't have as much to adjust to.
They now have Alex Svitov, Jimmie Olvestad, Shane Willis, and Nikita Alexeev all sitting in the minors and all of whom have played at least 60 games in the NHL. IN THE MINORS. If you can't see that as depth, then you're completely blind! And that's not even to mention two guys who were top flight scorers in the Finnish league like Perrin and Somervuori who could also be early callups too.

Do you have depth like that Panthers fan? Not PROSPECTS, legitimate NHL or European pro proven players 6 deep who you can recall on a moments notice. Do you? No? Then shoosh.So we're saying that quantity is better than quality now?? But if you noticed, FL also has a few good players sitting in the minors for one reason or another. Weiss, Bednar, Nedorost & Shvidki who all have NHL experience so its not 6 deep but 4 deep....not THAT much of a difference.Tell me something, how many 19 year old prospect d-men make an all-star caliber impact their first year? Can play 30 minutes a night when asked? Can get 30 points and play the power play on the first unit? Today, right now, in the present, with the Lightning as DIVISION CHAMPIONS looking into move into the elite level of teams, I'd rather have Adrian Aucoin than the promise of Pitkanen which might only be realized 4-5 years off into the distant future.

But that's the bill of good Dudley sells you Panthers fans, and you buy it don't you? Prospects, prospects, prospects. Why WIN today when you can be perpetually building for a tomorrow that may never come?

Just remember Panthers fans, when you sit here and smugly talk about a Bouwmeester, or even a Pitkanen, that for every Cory Sarich who made it in Tampa Bay (and only after 3 years of painful development btw) there are two Kristian Kudrocs, Mathieu Birons, Bryan Muirs, Sascha Gocs, Paul Maras, and Josef Boumediennes, all of whom have Dudley to thank for in some case the stunting and in others for the ruination of their careers.

So you go rah rah about how Rick Dudley is SO smart for piling prospects and picks, and you try to paint Jay Feaster as an idiot for going after NHL talent instead... but just remember which one of our teams is raising a championship banner on opening night too.

-Pete ChoquettePitkanen is probably considered one of the top candidates for the Calder this yr and could potentially get 20 pts this yr for Philly. I don't see why in his 2nd yr he couldn't get 30 (like Bouwmeester is being predicted to achieve by non-Cat fans). So your argument about 4-5 yrs off isn't valid...should be just 2 yrs. Plus, you overrate Aucoin just a tad...he's not as good as you think he is (just ask Darth).

TB had some of the pieces in place already so they should've been in the win-now mode instead of the constant rebuilding. FL hasn't had those pieces and needs to acquire some of them which is what Dudley has been doing.

As far as your championship banner, do it again and then you can brag because FL fans have been there and done that. Only to have management screw the pooch and make the dumbest trades ever (only need to mention one name and it will incite most of us: Chris Wells). Its not about getting to the top of the hill...its staying on top once you get there. You can ask Carolina about that as well (and trust me, they'll be gunning for TB this yr with all their players back & a renewed defense).

Acadmus
10-08-2003, 06:26 AM
Didn't see the start of this thread, but a point on one quoted segment:

Feaster didn't bring in Eric Perrin out of desperation, he did it because Martin St. Louis lobbied for him. Then he and Perrin spent the whole summer up here in Burlington, VT, trying to get Eric ready for training camp. Regardless, he's a step closer to the NHL now than he was last year, and he can still improve enough to make it possibly next year. It's been a while, but if St. Louis and Perrin ever do get teamed up...you can't believe the chemistry these two had in college and when they were together in Cleveland's old IHL franchise prior to the Flames picking up St. Louis.

Perrin actually was doing well in the I, incidentally, until a major trade sent him and almost half the Cleveland team to the IHL's Quebec franchise, which folded at the end of that season. He then bounced to Kansas City, but after another couple of seasons the entire league folded. That's why he ended up in Europe.

Oops, I'm arguing for the wrong side. Still, I'm on the side of any player that attended my Alma Mater, UVM...that includes, thus far, John Leclair, Aaron Miller, Tim Thomas, Eric Perrin, Martin St. Louis, and Patrick Sharp (despite the Flyers robbed him from UVM in his sophomore year when he was the team's leading scorer). That's the only reason I'm standing up for Perrin.

Clash*
10-08-2003, 08:01 AM
Yes, let's be proud of winning a division title from the weakest division in the league. A division that held two of the top 4 draft picks this past season. If Tampa had played in a better division, or Carolina didn't lose the man games to injury, or Washington's overpriced pretty boys did suck it all season long, Tampa MIGHT deserve some respect.

As for Aucoin, he hasn't done jack except rack up minutes while Hamrlik was injured two years ago. He played on a defense with an egghead (Kenny Jonnson) and Harmlik and no one else. He'd be guarenteed ice time on a defense that weak. With the addition of Niniimaa, expect Aucoin's points total to fall.

And as for the Fedotenko trade. What else did you get from that? I looked at the draft from that year, and all there is for Tampa is a late, late second round pick. I've seen where people credit Feaster with bringin over Alexeez and Svitov, but who drafted them? He didn't, Dudley did as well as Olvestad. To expect these players to develop into full fledged NHL stars so quickly really shows that you guys on the west coast no less than you think.

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-08-2003, 10:57 AM
Sorry, but 60 games in the league is far from proven talent in the NHL..

:rolleyes:

Why fight it?

You know we suck. Leave it be.

Why don't you ask Feaster were your whole minor league system is?

Oh but we can drop 6 guys a piece on 2-3 teams playing and coached by different organizations. That doesn't help develop your prospects.

Weiss 23 points = Svitov 8 points...

:lol:

8 points = NHL regular, proven depth forward...

Good job at producing fourth line forwards froma top 3 draft pick. Kudos to you.

And lets not forget that it was DUDLEY that started this GARBAGE with the joint AHL team in Springfield.

And if you bothered to learn more about what was going on in the offseason you will find out some information regarding Rochester and how and why they are not our current AHL affiliate.

Before you spew out your Feaster hatred at least base it on facts.

Kudos to DUDLEY that drafted it too the Yoda of the draft and everything

Clash*
10-08-2003, 08:18 PM
And if you bothered to learn more about what was going on in the offseason you will find out some information regarding Rochester and how and why they are not our current AHL affiliate.

LOL, Rochester wanted to deal with a stable organization. Yes, I did read up on it, and a lot of it. They thought of splittin from Buffalo, cause they weren't gettin the talent levels they felt they deserved, plus the money problems. They evidently didn't feel they'd get anything better from a franchise that trade Pitkanen for two drafts picks and Fedotenko and really only have Feds to show for it.

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-08-2003, 08:55 PM
LOL, Rochester wanted to deal with a stable organization. Yes, I did read up on it, and a lot of it. They thought of splittin from Buffalo, cause they weren't gettin the talent levels they felt they deserved, plus the money problems. They evidently didn't feel they'd get anything better from a franchise that trade Pitkanen for two drafts picks and Fedotenko and really only have Feds to show for it.


That is not the correct version read better. Rochester where FORCED to pull out of it with basically a done deal due to sponsor demands that said they would pull all $$ if they changed away from Buffalo.

And without that a 100% minor in Rochester would have happened this year.

Talentwise we are a very strong team I mean Dudley was here for a number of years so you can only imagine what talent we have

petec1978*
10-08-2003, 10:10 PM
you lose your credibility when you defend the pitkanin deal

You lose credibility when you can't even spell Pitkanen's name correctly.

the fact is that feaster hasnt made any good deals

You're right, John Grahame for a 6th rounder was an awful deal. Boston made out like THIEVES on that one :rolleyes:

I will have time to make a more complete post on this later, but I hate to break the news that a GM can't make that quick of an impact to help you win the division.

He can certainly LOSE the division or a playoff spot for you by constant unwise interventions. See: Dudley, Rick.

Also, you have it backwards. For every Paul Mara, there are two Andreas Lilja's.

No, I had the ratio right. And would that be the same Andreas Lilja who struggled through camp and the ex-games and whom the Panthers organization was unhappy with so far this season? Golly gee, I think it is.

Why don't you ask Feaster were your whole minor league system is?

Why don't I ask Rick Dudley why he entered into the agreement with Springfield that began the whole joint-affiliation fiasco to begin with?

Good job at producing fourth line forwards froma top 3 draft pick. Kudos to you.

Hmmmm Weiss is starting the year in the AHL too? Go figure. I guess he must be just a future 4th liner too by your standards. :rolleyes:

Yes, let's be proud of winning a division title from the weakest division in the league.

Its more than Dudley has managed to do in what now? 4 years in the division between two stops?

And I'm not just proud of the title. Finishing 23 points ahead of the Panthers and kicking the crap out of you in the season series was pretty gratifying too.

It will be when we do again this year too.

As for Aucoin, he hasn't done jack except

1.) Lead the Islanders in ice time two years running.
2.) Score 34 and 35 points respectively in both seasons since leaving the Lightning.
3.) Anchor their righty shot point position on the power play.

You're right Panthers fan, he SUCKS. :rolleyes:

And as for the Fedotenko trade. What else did you get from that?

Adam Henrich, Gerard Dicaire, and Jay Rosehill. Thanks for asking.

To expect these players to develop into full fledged NHL stars so quickly really shows that you guys on the west coast no less than you think.

It was YOUR OWN FANS who were deriding Alexeev and Svitov! My goodness, this really shows you guys on the east coast would've scored terribly on the reading comprehension portion of the FCAT's if they had them back in the day.

LOL, Rochester wanted to deal with a stable organization. Yes, I did read up on it, and a lot of it. They thought of splittin from Buffalo, cause they weren't gettin the talent levels they felt they deserved, plus the money problems. They evidently didn't feel they'd get anything better from a franchise that trade Pitkanen for two drafts picks and Fedotenko and really only have Feds to show for it.

Actually Golisano promised them a series of lucrative regional promotional incentives between the Sabres and Americans including one or two ex-games a year to be played in Rochester. THAT and the potential sponsor pull out is what swung the deal in the favor of Buffalo.

And we have Lukowich, Henrich, Dicaire, and Rosehill to show for it too. Please Panther fan, get your facts straight.

-Pete Choquette

Darth Milbury
10-09-2003, 10:30 AM
Yes, let's be proud of winning a division title from the weakest division in the league. A division that held two of the top 4 draft picks this past season. If Tampa had played in a better division, or Carolina didn't lose the man games to injury, or Washington's overpriced pretty boys did suck it all season long, Tampa MIGHT deserve some respect.

As for Aucoin, he hasn't done jack except rack up minutes while Hamrlik was injured two years ago. He played on a defense with an egghead (Kenny Jonnson) and Harmlik and no one else. He'd be guarenteed ice time on a defense that weak. With the addition of Niniimaa, expect Aucoin's points total to fall.

And as for the Fedotenko trade. What else did you get from that? I looked at the draft from that year, and all there is for Tampa is a late, late second round pick. I've seen where people credit Feaster with bringin over Alexeez and Svitov, but who drafted them? He didn't, Dudley did as well as Olvestad. To expect these players to develop into full fledged NHL stars so quickly really shows that you guys on the west coast no less than you think.

Not that I want to get into this but:

1) Tampa's accomplishments last year where actually pretty impressive. They took a major step forward. Winning the division DOES matter a lot, even if the division is not that strong.

2) It is true that Aucoin's icetime reflects lack of depth on the Island. Two years ago, however, he earned a number of votes for the Norris and was probably a top 20 dman in the league. Last year, he came back to earth, but was still a pretty solid #3/#4 guy. I don't think Aucoin is great, but he is a good to very good dman. He'd easily be the number one in FLA, and in a few other cities.

"Egghead" Kenny Jonnson has played more than 70 games for a few consecutive seasons. He was also a player hotly pursued by FLA for years, btw, and is one of the more underrated defensive dmen in the game.

3) The Fedotenko trade was brutal, no question. But, again, take a look at the context. Feaster was desperate to get his team into the playoffs because interest in Tampa was on the wane. Dumb move, but OK intent. Its also a little early to see how that deal is going to work out in the long run.

Crossbar
10-10-2003, 06:26 AM
Pitkanen is already paying off for the Flyers! 2-0 win for Philly Joni gets an assist.

Geez I really wish these TB idiots didn't have the players Dudley got them then they would shut up and realize that Feaster was just at the right place at the right time to take credit for what Dudley had built for TB. Feaster and Cohen are a lot a like IMO, prior to Feaster being named GM he had never played, never coached, never GMed and was basically just a lawyer/businessman who is a fan of hockey running the show.

No offense to all the TB fans just the ones that are stubborn and won't admit Dudley helped a lot in what TB is today. IMO TB is not going to be a team that will disappear like the Canes did last season.

Chaos2k7
10-10-2003, 06:44 AM
We aren't the fans on another team's board trying to cause trouble.

If we and Dudley are soooo bad, then what else is their to say?

All we are saying is that, don't come onto our board and criticize us/our GM when your GM has made as many questionable calls in his illustrious career.

:lol:

And don't tell us you guys don't need Pitkanen. Your GM searched all summer for a D-Man, and came up with Trepanier (Another Florida Cast-Off), Laukkanen, and Darren Rumble?

Yeah, Pitkanen is definently below these guys talent-wise.

Hell, the only one I wouldn't take him over on our team is J-Bo.

But Feaster knows all...

:bow:

:rolleyes:

Rattrick
10-10-2003, 11:37 AM
No, I had the ratio right. And would that be the same Andreas Lilja who struggled through camp and the ex-games and whom the Panthers organization was unhappy with so far this season? Golly gee, I think it is.

-Pete Choquette

Man, you should just quit while you're behind. The only reason Lilja was a borderline player is because Dudley has brought SO MUCH depth to our blueline that good players were nearly losing their spots.

Thank you, Drive Through!

jol
10-12-2003, 05:43 PM
Pitkanen is already paying off for the Flyers! 2-0 win for Philly Joni gets an assist.

Geez I really wish these TB idiots didn't have the players Dudley got them then they would shut up and realize that Feaster was just at the right place at the right time to take credit for what Dudley had built for TB. Feaster and Cohen are a lot a like IMO, prior to Feaster being named GM he had never played, never coached, never GMed and was basically just a lawyer/businessman who is a fan of hockey running the show.

No offense to all the TB fans just the ones that are stubborn and won't admit Dudley helped a lot in what TB is today. IMO TB is not going to be a team that will disappear like the Canes did last season.

So who is going to be the GM who is going to close the deal for Florida,
i.e. taking Panthers to NHL's top elite, my personal favorite is NJ's
Lou Lamoriello, but if he ever leaves NJ he will go back to Boston.

petec1978*
10-12-2003, 06:50 PM
The only reason Lilja was a borderline player is because Dudley has brought SO MUCH depth to our blueline that good players were nearly losing their spots.

Ha! Do you Panthers fans believe your own BS? No team that carries Mathieu Biron and a broken down old man like Lyle Odelein on their opening night roster has ANY reason to boast about their depth at the blueline position.

Know what else is funny Panthers fan? Rick Dudley managed to lose 3 goaltenders in less than a week for NOTHING and you're still defending him. Truly sad.

-Pete Choquette

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-12-2003, 09:20 PM
Ha! Do you Panthers fans believe your own BS? No team that carries Mathieu Biron and a broken down old man like Lyle Odelein on their opening night roster has ANY reason to boast about their depth at the blueline position.

Know what else is funny Panthers fan? Rick Dudley managed to lose 3 goaltenders in less than a week for NOTHING and you're still defending him. Truly sad.

-Pete Choquette


But he did all this work of losing 3 goalies in a cple days to save $$ so he could sign Horton cmon we are so stupid that we dont see such obvious things :joker: :joker:

It was all planned from start so he could get Horton in. Makes me scared what is the "planned" move to get Ovechkin to sign later on

Chaos2k7
10-13-2003, 05:29 AM
But he did all this work of losing 3 goalies in a cple days to save $$ so he could sign Horton cmon we are so stupid that we dont see such obvious things :joker: :joker:

It was all planned from start so he could get Horton in. Makes me scared what is the "planned" move to get Ovechkin to sign later on


Yeah, watch out for the depth of another defense too....

Cullimore - Kubina
Boyle - Laukkanen
Rumble - Trepanier

Am I missing anyone from this top rated defense?

:rolleyes:

As I have said all along, we'll see when we meet for the first time. But I have to say that our defense did beat your full NHL sqaud in the last game. And sorry but the changing of your fourth line players does not mean you had a weak linup that night.

Oh no, Afanasenkov...

:lol:

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-13-2003, 10:58 AM
Yeah, watch out for the depth of another defense too....

Cullimore - Kubina
Boyle - Laukkanen
Rumble - Trepanier

Am I missing anyone from this top rated defense?

:rolleyes:

As I have said all along, we'll see when we meet for the first time. But I have to say that our defense did beat your full NHL sqaud in the last game. And sorry but the changing of your fourth line players does not mean you had a weak linup that night.

Oh no, Afanasenkov...

:lol:


You missed quite a few but i will not hang you for it, and for your info only 3 of those you counted up there even made the opening night roster so you missed 3 NHL rdy to go Dmen

Sarich, Lukowich and Pratt

Rattrick
10-13-2003, 11:15 AM
What's truly sad is that you refuse to acknowledge that your team was built by Dudley. If you really want to get right down to it, go ahead and make a listing of the moves that Dudley made and the moves that Feaster has made. If you don't realize that Dudley has done more for your team, that is really sad. I dare you to do that as a matter of a fact.

Swedish Bolt Fan
10-13-2003, 11:59 AM
What's truly sad is that you refuse to acknowledge that your team was built by Dudley. If you really want to get right down to it, go ahead and make a listing of the moves that Dudley made and the moves that Feaster has made. If you don't realize that Dudley has done more for your team, that is really sad. I dare you to do that as a matter of a fact.


Signed FA Shevalier,Freadrich,Rominski,von Steffenelli

Zyuzin,Houlder,Burr,Guolla In for Sundstrom and a 3rd round pick

Reese and a 9th for a 9th round pick

signed FA Kesa, Herbers, Drulia.


This is a start of Dudleys brilliant list of moves even before the season started more to follow

Heimy
10-13-2003, 12:02 PM
This thread should have an expiration date :rolleyes:

Rattrick
10-13-2003, 12:31 PM
Signed FA Shevalier,Freadrich,Rominski,von Steffenelli

Zyuzin,Houlder,Burr,Guolla In for Sundstrom and a 3rd round pick

Reese and a 9th for a 9th round pick

signed FA Kesa, Herbers, Drulia.


This is a start of Dudleys brilliant list of moves even before the season started more to follow

I fail to see where you lost anyting of any signifigance.?.?.?

jacksheit
10-13-2003, 12:46 PM
Dud's is doing a great job with our team
how bad was florida before he came along?
Look at our potential now.
we're almost a powerhouse.2 more years

petec1978*
10-13-2003, 02:57 PM
Am I missing anyone from this top rated defense?

Cory Sarich, Brad Lukowich, and Nolan Pratt... all three of whom are better than Mathieu Biron and Lyle Odelein. Trepanier was acquired for the Hershey Bears, not that you'd know anything about that.

Oh no, Afanasenkov...

Scored a goal opening night, again, not that you'd know anything about that.

What's truly sad is that you refuse to acknowledge that your team was built by Dudley.

WHAT PART OF "HE INHERITED LECAVALIER, RICHARDS, KUBINA, AND CULLIMORE" DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND?

Hell, he even inherited Afanasenkov too while we're at it.

you don't realize that Dudley has done more for your team

He did more in three years to assure we'd be picking on the front row at the draft than any GM in Lightning history, yes. What a great man :rolleyes:

Look at our potential now.
we're almost a powerhouse.

Yes, the league trembles before the might of the league's fourth worst record last year.

-Pete Choquette

Rattrick
10-13-2003, 03:52 PM
Actually, I will argue that Odelien is just as good as any of the dmen you named. Pete, I gotta give you credit, you are the funniest person on these boards. You should consider standup comedy, you would be great at it!

Chaos2k7
10-13-2003, 06:43 PM
Listen Petey...

Try not to combine two or three peoples messages to try to slap together some semblance of a post....

Nolan Pratt is a starter nowhere else but Tampa Bay, same goes for Lukowich and that dynamo Stan Neckar that had been with you for years.

Pascal Trepanier is for Hershey? Why would a GM got out a sign a veteran DMan for a AHL team that he doesn't even have a say in as far as even the coaching goes??

Don't tell me what I know or don't know about your team.

Biron may not be as physical as Sarich but at least he doesn't have a set of stone hands. What is the facsination you Tampa fans have with Biron anyways. Oh yes, the Aucoin deal. Boo Hoo. You keep saying how bad he sucks and we suck. If anything you should be glad we have him.

If we are so bad what else is there to discuss?

I keep telling you that we will see when we meet up in the regular season series.

I guess you are just upset that for everyone on your team that Dudley didn't acquire we helped develop in our minor league system.

Remember what that's like?

Lecavalier, Richards, Kubina, Cullimore would win jack without the players Dudley acquired. Hell only Vincent, and Brad would be considered cornerstone pieces.

:D

You bore me with your constant complaining. You would think that a team with so much positive going for it, would have less fans complaining about the distant past instead of the future.

:dunno:

Call me when your top prospect Holmqvist wins the Norris.

Nice additions in Somervouri and Perrin too, nice gamble, at least Dudley acquires players with future potential instead of basing it upon players past friends.

:D

petec1978*
10-13-2003, 10:53 PM
Actually, I will argue that Odelien is just as good as any of the dmen you named.

Maybe he was, FIVE YEARS AGO. Not now though. He's horrible now.

Try not to combine two or three peoples messages to try to slap together some semblance of a post....

Try not to sit here defending Dudley like one large monolithic community of sheep bleating his praises in unison, and maybe I might treat you like individuals. But until then, no.

Nolan Pratt is a starter nowhere else but Tampa Bay, same goes for Lukowich

Really? Last I checked Lukowich was in the top-6 for three seasons on an elite level team in Dallas before coming to the Lightning. Do you even know who Brad Lukowich is? Better yet, do you even know your OWN name?

And as for Pratt, he was way ahead of Biron on the Lightning's depth chart when he was in Tampa, so if that big pascifist pylon is in your lineup, Nolan Pratt surely could be playing for the Panthers too.

Pascal Trepanier is for Hershey? Why would a GM got out a sign a veteran DMan for a AHL team that he doesn't even have a say in as far as even the coaching goes??

Because of his past ties to the Hershey organization and his contractual promise to provide someone to fill an AHL veteran spot as a part of the partial affiliation agreement?

Remind me who started the partial affiliation agreements where the Lightning have no head coaching say after the Vipers shut down? Who? Rick Dudley? Say it ain't so!

Biron may not be as physical as Sarich but at least he doesn't have a set of stone hands.

Well golly, what's this? Cory Sarich had as many goals last year as Biron has IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER?

Do you ever THINK before you blurt embarassingly stupid insults/comparisons about players Panthers fan? Nevemind, I already know the answer.

Lecavalier, Richards, Kubina, Cullimore would win jack without the players Dudley acquired.

Hmmm, looking at the opening night lineup for the Lightning: 5 of 6 guys on the top two lines were non-Dudley players. Half of the defensemen were non-Dudley players. Explain to me how this is so clearly Rick Dudley's team? How we couldn't "win jack" without Rick Dudley's players?

Let me reiterate that: we tooled Boston 5-1 with a team where 5 of 6 guys on the top two lines were non-Dudley players and half the d-men were non-Dudley players. Is this sinking in yet Panther fan? This is NOT Rick Dudley's team.

Your opening night Lightning goal scorers:
Stillman 2 goals: Feaster pickup.
Afanasenkov 1 goal:Espo/Demers/Murdoch draft pick.
Richards 1 goal: Espo/Demers/Murdoch draft pick.
Taylor 1 goal: WOW! 1 goal in 5 came from a Dudley acquisition. Jesus we owe him SUCH a debt of gratitude! ::sarcasm dripping::

Hell only Vincent, and Brad would be considered cornerstone pieces.

Show me a Dudley era Lightning draft pick who is better. Christ, I'll make it even easier: show me a Dudley era Lightning draft pick who is even better than Pavel Kubina. There hasn't been one that's proven they are yet. Ahhh, but that Rick Dudley, he's "Yoda, Master of the Draft" and all his draft picks turn into gold, right? You all should be so proud. :rolleyes:

Call me when your top prospect Holmqvist wins the Norris.

And you call me when Dudley tries to trade Bouwmeester for a big goofy #5 (at best) defenseman and a 2nd round pick. If Dudley had the chutzpah/stupidity to try to trade Vincent Lecavalier, you can bet your life none of the bottomfeeders on your team are safe either.

Nice additions in Somervouri and Perrin too, nice gamble, at least Dudley acquires players with future potential instead of basing it upon players past friends.

You're right, Dudley only spent half his time in Tampa trying to give spots to ex-Vipers players like Ian Herbers, Dan Kesa, and Stan Drulia while handing over the coaching spot to Steve Ludzik. That Rick Dudley; you could NEVER accuse him of short sighted crony-ism. :rolleyes:

I mean for crying out loud, you sat here in your last post and railed Stan Neckar when the only reason Dudley acquired Neckar in the first place was because he was an ex-Viper. And you have the audacity to accuse Feaster of doing something wrong by signing Perrin? I mean at least Perrin was one of the best players in the Finnish league last season. Explain to me what stiffs like Dan Kesa and Ian Herbers did to deserve shots under Dudley? That's a rhetorical question mostly, but I'd be ever so amused if you tried to answer it anyway.

-Pete Choquette

patastrophe
10-14-2003, 03:04 AM
summary: BLAH BLAH BLAH

-Pete Choquette


four players: khabiboulin, st. louis (he was a dudley pickup wasnt he?), andreychuk, taylor.

your team is in the same non-playoff nowhere we are without them.

and by the way, youre right, lukowich is a good player, but pratt sucks.

Coolburn
10-14-2003, 04:19 AM
four players: khabiboulin, st. louis (he was a dudley pickup wasnt he?), andreychuk, taylor.

your team is in the same non-playoff nowhere we are without them.

and by the way, youre right, lukowich is a good player, but pratt sucks.You forgot Dan Boyle who was acquired by Dudley for a 5th round pick and produced 53 pts last season and was the 5th best d-man in the league last yr.

I'd have to agree about Pratt...imo, its Pratt == Biron so its pretty even in that department.

Chaos2k7
10-14-2003, 05:32 AM
Petey...

You forget alot of things, just becuase you keep naming those same four players does not make them the core of your team.

Lukowich??

:lol:

Neckar played for Ottawa too isn't he a huge DMan?

You're right though I can't remember my OWN name.

:bow:

It is so sad to hear you complain on here about your teams own rival and their moves that you don't like. Boo Hoo.

I am so sorry that you feel slighted by Rick Dudley. Maybe we can set up a home visit for you and your fellow whinner Tampa Bay fans. And don't complain that he wasted draft picks on guys like Weekes and Cloutier when both are starters in this league.

Damn it, he acquired two future starting goaltenders and then when he knew that management and the fans had no patience he went out and acquired your starter now. When he came to Tampa you guys had no semblance of a team. He built depth in the organization which allowed him to deal for all the other pieces that supposedly aren't important to your team:

St. Louis, Boyle, Andreychuk, Taylor, Modin etc.

And looking at that list alone, I see all your veteran leadership (ie Odelein, Messier for us) your top DMan, and two top six wingers.

But they probably all play fourth line and thrid defensive pairings because Dudley acquired them. Uh huh. Notice how we don't put down your team? We don't need to. Just admit what the positives Dudley did for your team and call it a day.

And your right about the AHL deal, you probably wouldn't have an affiliate ad Dudley not steped in.

Do you even know your own team? I doubt it or at least you would be able to see that Dudley helped your organization out tremendously. All those years of losing and first round exits really got to you huh? I feel your pain. But don't worry, when we become overcrowded with our scoring forwards and DMen, I am sure you guys can pick up our scraps as always.

Maybe that's why Dudley came in the first place, he just got to skip the step of developing other teams garbage.

Lukowich, Pratt, and Sarich?

:lol:

I just can't stop laughing, it always fun when the village moron stops by.

:D

Heimy
10-14-2003, 05:42 AM
I can't believe some of you guys are ripping Sarich. I see a lot of usefulness in him and would love to have him here.

Chaos2k7
10-14-2003, 06:37 AM
I can't believe some of you guys are ripping Sarich. I see a lot of usefulness in him and would love to have him here.


I am not ripping him, I do respect Sarich but who would you rather have Sarich or Mezei...

Just don't tell me how bad our GM is when he built most of Tampa Bay and is on his way in Florida.

He isn't perfect, but definently is alot better than former fans give credit for.

:teach:

Heimy
10-14-2003, 06:47 AM
I am not ripping him, I do respect Sarich but who would you rather have Sarich or Mezei...

Just don't tell me how bad our GM is when he built most of Tampa Bay and is on his way in Florida.

He isn't perfect, but definently is alot better than former fans give credit for.

:teach:


No fair CHaos! Everyone knows I picked Mezei as my breakout defenseman...and it appears I'm right as usual. :rolly:

btw, that was a sorry call against him last night! Since when is flattening an opponent coming across your blueline a penalty? Nothing ruins a game like an over zealous ref. :rant:

Rattrick
10-14-2003, 07:28 AM
No fair CHaos! Everyone knows I picked Mezei as my breakout defenseman...and it appears I'm right as usual. :rolly:

btw, that was a sorry call against him last night! Since when is flattening an opponent coming across your blueline a penalty? Nothing ruins a game like an over zealous ref. :rant:

You got that right Heimy! The refs controlled last nights game and I HATE that!

petec1978*
10-14-2003, 10:11 AM
Neckar played for Ottawa too isn't he a huge DMan?

If by huge you mean hugely untalented. There's another piece of garbage Feaster inherited from Dudley on the blueline that was finally, mercifully, cut loose. And look! No one else has picked him up! Great eye for pro talent that Rick Dudley has!

When we acquired him as the throw in for the Khabi deal the next day in the papers Dudley was just about falling all over himself because the Sens had sent Neckar to the Vipers when he was young and Dudley was the GM there. Just like he fell all over himself about Weekes' time with the Vipers. Etc etc.

And don't complain that he wasted draft picks on guys like Weekes and Cloutier when both are starters in this league.

And Cloutier is the anchor holding the Canucks back from a legitimate cup run and Weekes backstopped the team with the worst record in hockey last season. Wow! Great pickups Little Ricky!

and then when he knew that management and the fans had no patience

WE had no patience? This is the man who was so impatient he tried to trade Vincent Lecavalier! This is the man who was so impatient he traded Adrian Aucoin after having him for less than a season! We had no patience for losing after THREE YEARS... that's true. But we have patience for the development of our young players, which Dudley DOESN'T.

And your right about the AHL deal, you probably wouldn't have an affiliate ad Dudley not steped in.

:rolleyes: Do you realize how infantile and wrong this statement is?

Do you even know your own team?

No, I got the green MB name out of a Cracker Jack box.

All those years of losing

Under Rick Dudley. UNDER RICK DUDLEY. Are you getting that yet Panthers fan? The man hasn't had a winning season yet in 4 years in the Southeast Division. 4 years, not one winning season. And he's a "genius"? No, wait, I'll give you that. Anyone who can have a record in W's and L's as awful as Rick Dudley and still have fans like you eating out of the palm of his hand must be a "genius" because if anyone else was as terrible at their job as Dudley is they'd be executed for gross incompetance.

And yes, Sarich is better than Mezei because Sarich is more mobile.

-Pete Choquette

joeminus
10-14-2003, 10:56 AM
:chuckle:

Hilarious thread.

Cut 'em some slack, Pete. Panthers fans are still in their honeymoon period with Dudley. They haven't been stuck with him long enough to understand -- let alone become nauseated by -- his M.O.: Throw as many players/prospects/picks against the wall and see what sticks, then trade what sticks for more players/prospects/picks.

Give 'em another year or two. They'll come around.

PantherboyHTR
10-14-2003, 11:08 AM
:chuckle:

Hilarious thread.

Cut 'em some slack, Pete. Panthers fans are still in their honeymoon period with Dudley. They haven't been stuck with him long enough to understand -- let alone become nauseated by -- his M.O.: Throw as many players/prospects/picks against the wall and see what sticks, then trade what sticks for more players/prospects/picks.

Give 'em another year or two. They'll come around.
Better than Murray

Rschmitz
10-14-2003, 12:35 PM
I basically echoed these criticisms throughout the offseason, when I stated that Dudley was full of it for saying that the Panthers had one of the most talented teams in hockey. And I insisted that quality veterans needed to be added to support the youth. And I took him to task for the mostly third-rate stuff he landed in the Ozolinsh/Yushkevich deals, which only diluted the talent base and left youngsters like J Bo and Biron hung out to dry, an error he may have compunded by trading Majesky. And I took issue with the way he ran this year's camp. By and large, the essence of my criticism is similar to yours. And even though it became clear that money would be an issue, I also said that if Dudley was following some sort of five-year plan, then he wouldn't be around to see it through.

But Dudley has made a number of positive acquisitions during his tenure in Florida, just as he has during his time in Tampa. He may be impatient to a large degree, but he's fighting the odds imposed by his circumstances. The failure rate you allude to is nothing unexpected when you're dealing with prospects. If you can't pay for a proven commodity, then you have to pursue other alternatives that have a lesser chance of panning out.

Ultimately, though, I think Dudley may be a better assistant GM than a number one man. But with Keenan and Cohen in his way, he's not getting a chance to succeed or fail based on his own merit.


Can't agree with you more. This has been what i've been preaching for a while to Dudley Haters. You can disect every Pete post addressing Dudley and you can tell its skewed, and no denying it. For whatever reason he and others hate Dudley...no doubt for several reasons, one being that he tried to trade our franchise player, but they fail to see the positives. Like what he brought in, et cetera; and even though he did pick up some crappy players along with the St. Louis and Modin's...he didn't trade much if anything for that, and given the alternatives of what he could have acquired his hit/miss rate was remarkable. And even though I hope the Panthers get sucked into oblivion and lose for the next decade doesn't corrupt the fact that Dudley is great at acquiring assets.


Basically, when you look at it Dudley had 99, 00, and 01 to gain prospects and such. Some would argue that he could have 3 top prospects where he only really acquired 1(Svitov). However, in 99 Stefan was the #1 overall pick and the Sedin brothers wanted to on the same team, and Brendal who had a serious attitude problem. We already had Richards and Vinny so naturally the Stefan and the Sedin twins were out and Dudley gambled that Brendal would turn into nothing and basically won. He accumulated a bushel of talent and drafted Alexeev the following year and traded the #5 pick(essentially the rugged but small Brampton Battalion forward) for Weekes, Kudroc, and a secound round pick.

Cloutier and Weekes are both starting goaltenders in the league now, one plays for the perrennial playoff Canucks and the other beat out Irbe!

Additionally, alot of the assets from the trades were used in other trades and who traded Weekes for Dingman? Feaster? yes. Who released Biron and Kudroc? Feaster. Who let OHL scoring champ Sheldon Keefe go? Feaster.


To compare Feaster and Dudley in terms of trades is extremely narrow minded. You can count Feasters deals on one hand and you can't keep track of Dudleys. But Feaster was the acting GM when the Lightning made the playoffs and when the team finally started to come around...and thats what he will be remembered for. If anything, Feaster has done more than Dudley ever possibly could by just leaving the team alone!

Clash*
10-14-2003, 12:42 PM
I'm sorry, and this will either get edited or erased completely, but...

I just can't get over that the dude's name is Peter Choke It.

Chaos2k7
10-14-2003, 12:50 PM
And yes, Sarich is better than Mezei because Sarich is more mobile.

-Pete Choquette


:lol:

Yeah, and we are the stupid ones.

Have you even seen Mezei play? Other than the pre-season game we played? Yeah, let's talk about size, skilled, strong skating defenseman with a mean streak and the offensive skills to go with it. I would take Branislav over Cory everyday of the week.

:rolleyes:

Only eating out of anyones hands is you from your terrible ownership.

Lecavalier allegedly asked to be traded and you would have had an awesome deal from the Senators back anyway. Don't blame Vinny's problems with your own coaches on Dudley.

Yeah Rick Dudley held you back...

Funny how everyone that he acquired to help compliment those that were there before him, took your team to the next level.

I want to be at the St. Pete Times Forum and tell the likes of St. Louis, Modin, Andreychuk, Taylor, Boyle how they were not core members of the team and how the man that acquired them is obviously lacking in the talent judging department. I am sure they will all appreiciate your comments. I am sure that their revived career's will beenough for them without your obvious team support. The next time Vinny and Brad carry your team by themselves, that is when you can call them the sole key members of your team.

I am sorry that you feel that every prospect drafted by your team must turn into a solid NHLer for you to be happy with the GM and scouting staff. Good Luck. I would be the first man to shake your hand if that ever happened.

I am sure that when Bouwmeester and Pitkanen are competeing for Norris trophy's in a few years it will be the same sad story of how Feaster screwed you...

I really have a tear in my eye for your organization.

Even up our all-time series record and then let's talk about the better team...

:teach:

Pay attention you might actually learn something from actual knowledgeable fans, I have seen the dribble the Tampa fans write... It comes no surprise you would want to continue this conversation with an actual person on the same level as you...

I take as a compliment...

:D

Chaos2k7
10-14-2003, 12:59 PM
Can't agree with you more. This has been what i've been preaching for a while to Dudley Haters. You can disect every Pete post addressing Dudley and you can tell its skewed, and no denying it. For whatever reason he and others hate Dudley...no doubt for several reasons, one being that he tried to trade our franchise player, but they fail to see the positives. Like what he brought in, et cetera; and even though he did pick up some crappy players along with the St. Louis and Modin's...he didn't trade much if anything for that, and given the alternatives of what he could have acquired his hit/miss rate was remarkable. And even though I hope the Panthers get sucked into oblivion and lose for the next decade doesn't corrupt the fact that Dudley is great at acquiring assets.


Basically, when you look at it Dudley had 99, 00, and 01 to gain prospects and such. Some would argue that he could have 3 top prospects where he only really acquired 1(Svitov). However, in 99 Stefan was the #1 overall pick and the Sedin brothers wanted to on the same team, and Brendal who had a serious attitude problem. We already had Richards and Vinny so naturally the Stefan and the Sedin twins were out and Dudley gambled that Brendal would turn into nothing and basically won. He accumulated a bushel of talent and drafted Alexeev the following year and traded the #5 pick(essentially the rugged but small Brampton Battalion forward) for Weekes, Kudroc, and a secound round pick.

Cloutier and Weekes are both starting goaltenders in the league now, one plays for the perrennial playoff Canucks and the other beat out Irbe!

Additionally, alot of the assets from the trades were used in other trades and who traded Weekes for Dingman? Feaster? yes. Who released Biron and Kudroc? Feaster. Who let OHL scoring champ Sheldon Keefe go? Feaster.


To compare Feaster and Dudley in terms of trades is extremely narrow minded. You can count Feasters deals on one hand and you can't keep track of Dudleys. But Feaster was the acting GM when the Lightning made the playoffs and when the team finally started to come around...and thats what he will be remembered for. If anything, Feaster has done more than Dudley ever possibly could by just leaving the team alone!


:handclap:

I knew I held out hope for a reason.. There is civilization in TB. Now if only the others could learn a little respect...

Boo Hoo Petey, Aucoin is gone... There is no one else he dealt that would have been a starter on your team now anyways...

:o

petec1978*
10-14-2003, 01:48 PM
Yeah, let's talk about size

They're both 6'3" and well over 2 bills. God Panther fans are brain dead.

skilled

With a whopping 3 goals and 9 career points. Wow! Look out, its Bobby Orr's evil twin! :rolleyes:

strong skating defenseman

If by strong skating you mean "looks like he's carrying a refrigerator on his back when he skates" then yes, I agree. It takes someone very strong to be able to skate with a major household appliance in tow.

and the offensive skills to go with it.

Again, with his amazing 9 career points. Ha!! Bloody hell. You take every press release the Panthers put out about a young player/prospect as gospel don't you? Sad.

I would take Branislav over Cory everyday of the week.

And that's why you aren't an NHL GM.

Only eating out of anyones hands is you from your terrible ownership.

Is that why you had to dump three goalies in a week for nothing just to sign Horton? Yeah that Cohen is a GREAT owner. It only takes the jaws of life to get his wallet open.

Lecavalier allegedly asked to be traded

Alleged by who? Rick Dudley.

Vincent Lecavalier never publicly asked to be traded. Dudley leapt to the conclusion that Vinny could never blossom under Tortorella, saw the opportunity to get a whole whopping load of more prospects/picks to ruin, and tried to take the opportunity. Thank God the Lightning upper management stepped in.

Funny how everyone that he acquired to help compliment those that were there before him, took your team to the next level.

You mean like Matthew Barnaby and Zdeno Ciger? Hell, aside from Torts, no other person did more to hurt Lecavalier's development than Rick Dudley because Little Ricky was completely clueless as to the need to acquire Vinny a suitable scoring winger.

I want to be at the St. Pete Times Forum and tell the likes of St. Louis, Modin, Andreychuk, Taylor, Boyle how they were not core members of the team

3/4 of those guys aren't core players. Now, are St. Louis and Boyle? Sure. Doesn't change the fact half the core was inherited from Espo/Demers or that 2 of our other scoring liners (Fedotenko and Stillman) have been acquired by Feaster.

The next time Vinny and Brad carry your team by themselves

That would be last year, what with the 150 points or so between them. Look how Prospal has withered without Lecavalier as his center in Anaheim.

I am sorry that you feel that every prospect drafted by your team must turn into a solid NHLer for you to be happy with the GM and scouting staff.

Not every... how about ONE. Show me ONE Rick Dudley draft pick who made the Tampa Bay Lightning opening night roster. Just one. You'd think with "Yoda, Master of the Draft" on board, they'd have ONE. Surely that's not too much to ask, is it?

I am sure that when Bouwmeester and Pitkanen are competeing for Norris trophy's in a few years

Which New York based team is Dudley going to GIVE Bouwmeester away to before that happens? Ha!

Even up our all-time series record and then let's talk about the better team...

And here it is ladies and gentlemen, Panthers fan breaks out one of his crutches. The old "all-time record" crutch. Nevermind the fact you've gotten your *** kicked in the season series for three straight years now. Why talk about the present when you can wax superior about how the Panthers were a better team, A HALF A DECADE AGO. Oh please Panther fan, embarass yourself even more by breaking out the "we made the cup finals and got swept... 7 YEARS AGO" crutch.

See how this goes Panther fan? You're either living in the past, or you're living for the future. Why, because so long as Rick Dudley is your GM you will ALWAYS be the Tampa Bay Lightning's ***** in the present.

I have seen the dribble the Tampa fans write...

Oh my God! Its not bad enough you're a Panther fan, which means you're generally a fairweather fan and a total moron about the sport of hockey. No my friend, you are even in a low IQ percentile for a Panther fan. That's right, you're at the back of the special ed class, and what's more hillarious is that you're actually cocky about it.

Wait, let me reprise one of your earlier posts:

"Look how smart I am, I couldn't even name half the Lightning's defense! No matter, I'll still run my mouth about it anyway! Yaaaaayyyyyyyy!"

http://hottopic.com/Assets/product_images/md/228800_md.jpg

There is no one else he dealt that would have been a starter on your team now anyways...

Michael Nylander, Darcy Tucker, Chris Gratton, etc etc ad nauseam.

You also:

http://hottopic.com/Assets/product_images/md/228800_md.jpg

"Yaaaaaayyyyyyy!"

-Pete Choquette

joeminus
10-14-2003, 02:05 PM
... and even though he did pick up some crappy players along with the St. Louis and Modin's...he didn't trade much if anything for that, and given the alternatives of what he could have acquired his hit/miss rate was remarkable.


What?! His hit/miss rate was remarkable?! Remarkably bad, maybe.

He stupidly dealt the first overall pick for Cloutier, Sundstrom and a couple of picks. Then he more stupidly dealt Sundstrom for Zyuzin, Houlder, Burr and Guolla. Then he even more stupidly waived the only useful player acquired in that deal.

He stupidly dealt Michael Nylander for Bryan Muir and Reid Simpson.

He stupidly dealt Darcy Tucker (plus a pick!) for Mike Johnson and Marek Posmyk.

Three and a half years later, he's still waiting for Cory Sarich to bail him out on the Gratton deal. (Wayne Primeau and Brian Holzinger didn't quite pan out, did they?)

He stupidly traded Mike Sillinger for Ryan Johnson and Dwayne Hay.

He stupidly traded the fifth overall pick (plus two other picks!) for Weekes, Kudroc and a pick. (Cloutier and Weekes may be NHL starters now, but anyone with two brain cells to rub together could see back then that there was no way they'd flourish behind a defensive corps of bums and kiddies ... Dudley tried it twice!)

He stupidly traded Aucoin (plus Kharitonov!) for Biron and a pick, then spent the next two years looking for a top-4 defenseman!

And which side of the hit/miss line do you think these names fall on: Dan Kesa. Ian Herbers. Steve Martins. Dale Rominski. Sergei Gusev. Bruce Gardiner. Pavel Torgayev. Gordie Dwyer. Todd Warriner. Chris McAlpine. Yogi Svejkovsky. Mikko Kuparinen. Dieter Kochan. Evgeny Konstantinov. Alex Kharitonov. Craig Millar. Ruslan Zainullin. John Emmons. Juha Ylonen. Ryan Tobler. Josef Boumedienne. Sascha Goc. Zdeno Ciger.

Like I said before, Dudley's theory is that if you make a bunch of deals, one or two are bound to work out in your favor. But even Khabibulin, St. Louis, Modin, Boyle and Prospal combined are BARELY enough to make up for subjecting me to Ian Herbers alone. Barely. And that leaves another couple of dozen bums against Dudley's record.


Dudley is great at acquiring assets.


Dudley is good at acquiring assets, not great. But once he gets those assets, he doesn't know what to do with them. He gets bored. He shuttles them constantly back and forth between the minors and the NHL. But he just can't ignore the itch to make another deal.


... who traded Weekes for Dingman? Feaster? yes. Who released Biron and Kudroc? Feaster. Who let OHL scoring champ Sheldon Keefe go? Feaster.

To compare Feaster and Dudley in terms of trades is extremely narrow minded. You can count Feasters deals on one hand and you can't keep track of Dudleys.


This isn't about Jay Feaster. This is about Rick Dudley. Jay Feaster has his own set of problems. The fact that you can't possibly remember all Dudley's deals is exactly the problem. He can't sit still. He can't let well enough alone. And, unless you lived through those years as a Lightning fan, the only deals you're going to remember are the ones that worked out.


If anything, Feaster has done more than Dudley ever possibly could by just leaving the team alone!

Exactly.

m2k2p
10-14-2003, 02:05 PM
Man Chiclet your arguements are tired and worn out like Feaster's underwear. Scoot along and go watch your Lightning play...oh wait they have almost a week between games, so their is nothing to do but whine and ***** on the Panthers board about how Dudley ruined your franchise and Feaster miraculously saved it in one year. :o ....your redundant. I am not saying Dudley's the best GM, but this franchise is at least headed in the right direction. Find something more productive to do.

joeminus
10-14-2003, 02:11 PM
... this franchise is at least headed in the right direction.

Fine. Just make sure you jettison Dudley when you're ready to turn the corner.

Chaos2k7
10-14-2003, 04:01 PM
Pete:

1) I was talking about Mezei alone, not comparing him to Sarich. You think Sarich is better, I think Mezei is better. Great.

2) Lecavalier's wishes or not wishes aside, the deal that Dudley was able to pursue was a good one. Radek Bonk, Chris Phillips, and #1 rounder, is fair value for a player that at that time wasn't even close to what he is now. Do I dislike Vincent? No. Do I care about a deal that never went down? No. Why would you care about what you yourself call speculation when the deal never went down?

3)You mean like Matthew Barnaby and Zdeno Ciger? No, I don't. Regardless of who you refuse to name, 1/3 to 1/2 of your current roster is Dudley's workings, or they were acquired by assets that Dudley had acquired. That just can't be unproven. Every night you watch your team your watching something that Rick Dudley helped create. Face it, that is how it is. Feaster helped too but overall Dudley did "MORE" to develop your roster than him.

4) Prospal lost? I don't think 3 games constitutes a year. Now your slamming players that even helped your team. At least you can't say Rick Dudley let go of your leading scorer, can you? No.

5) You have me on this one, sorry I haven't tracked the process of every prospect Dudley has drafted for Tampa, but, I have seen the positive drafts that he has held with Florida. I guess we are already "ONE" up on you. J-Bo is who I mean by the way, I don't expect you to keep up with all our draft picks either. That would be a complusive disorder.

6) Crutch? I have said numerous times in this thread, that let's wait until the season series starts this year, but you had to push it. An All-Time record is what most knowledgable fans can use as the basis for an opinion. Stats don't lie, and neither does the art of probability. You may not like it but that is the way "Experts" predict game winners and produce power rankings and other ways to rank teams. Again, stats don't lie. I am sorry you don't like it but it is the all-time record. So if you have "dominated us recently we dominated you in the past. So what? It is you that keeps tossing in the look what happened last year. Oh no, Southeast divison champion. Congratulations. There was only one winning team last year: New Jersey. That is a winning season, for you, for us.

7) The bottom line, without your childish name-calling, is, we will see.

8) What I think we would all like to see, is the roster and positional depth charts that Dudley began with and the end result of his tenure. I am sure you will see a remarkable improvement. For once prove your point with actual fact and not your's or mine own opinion. The proof is in the pudding, for better or worse. Prove it let's see you produce now smart guy.

:dunno:

Coolburn
10-14-2003, 04:11 PM
Hey Heimy...isn't it about time we close this thread? Doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere but the same place every time. FL fans don't like TB fans and TB fans don't like FL fans. I say we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Chaos2k7
10-14-2003, 04:13 PM
Hey Heimy...isn't it about time we close this thread? Doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere but the same place every time. FL fans don't like TB fans and TB fans don't like FL fans. I say we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.


Rich,

There is only one thing left to say. Prove it.

Until Pete proves it everything else said on the matter is pointless.

:teach:

Crossbar
10-14-2003, 04:36 PM
Before Dudley came to TB you guy had only reached the playoffs ONCE I repeat ONCE so WTF are you talking about Dudley made your team a losing team YOUR TEAM HAS ALWAYS BEEN A LOSING TEAM, you TB fans can't register that through your heads, Dudley didn't prohibit you guys from missing the playoffs at all, missing the playoffs was a custom...a tradition for TB hockey, Demers and Dudley are what built TB to where they are now, Feaster should not get even half the credit for the job Demers and Dudley did especially with that frugal owner TB has.

Chaos2k7
10-14-2003, 04:43 PM
Before Dudley came to TB you guy had only reached the playoffs ONCE I repeat ONCE so WTF are you talking about Dudley made your team a losing team YOUR TEAM HAS ALWAYS BEEN A LOSING TEAM, you TB fans can't register that through your heads, Dudley didn't prohibit you guys from missing the playoffs at all, missing the playoffs was a custom...a tradition for TB hockey, Demers and Dudley are what built TB to where they are now, Feaster should not get even half the credit for the job Demers and Dudley did especially with that frugal owner TB has.


:handclap:

What I believe is being lost here is that, no Panther fan that I can see is putting down the Lightning, yet, every Bolt fan comes on here and tells us how crappy we are. Great. I am glad you think so. But don't discredit the man that helped take you to where you are now. I respect the Bolts, I don't care much for their fans, but I believe that feeling is mutual.

Just get over yourself already.

And as for the name calling...

:rolleyes:

Classy, a real class act. Glad HF has you on board. Really. I am Serious.

;)

Heimy
10-14-2003, 05:33 PM
Hey Heimy...isn't it about time we close this thread? Doesn't seem like we're getting anywhere but the same place every time. FL fans don't like TB fans and TB fans don't like FL fans. I say we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.


nah, it's a pretty tame debate and besides this is what are real rivals are suppose to do right? heh heh, I wouldn't be surprised to see blood splashed all over my monitor by 11/11

joeminus
10-14-2003, 05:41 PM
Before Dudley came to TB you guy had only reached the playoffs ONCE I repeat ONCE so WTF are you talking about Dudley made your team a losing team YOUR TEAM HAS ALWAYS BEEN A LOSING TEAM, you TB fans can't register that through your heads, Dudley didn't prohibit you guys from missing the playoffs at all, missing the playoffs was a custom...a tradition for TB hockey, Demers and Dudley are what built TB to where they are now, Feaster should not get even half the credit for the job Demers and Dudley did especially with that frugal owner TB has.

See, you guys criticize us TB fans as being morons and so forth, but then you post garbage like this that shows you haven't comprehended a single word we've written. Nobody ever said "Rick Dudley made the Tampa Bay Lightning a losing team." And nobody ever said, "Jay Feaster made the Tampa Bay Lightning a winning team."

What has been said, in a nutshell, is this:

Rick Dudley came to Tampa, inherited a decent group of players and prospects, made a whole crapload of trades (of varying quality), acquired a whole crapload of players (of varying quality), stuck around long enough to see a small handful of them succeed and the overwhelming majority of them fail, then got canned when he couldn't get the team over the hump precisely because of his compulsive need to keep tinkering with his precious "assets," including those that every single other person in the organization considered "untouchable"; and in the end he left behind a group of players and prospects that was marginally improved over what we had when he arrived. The general consensus in Tampa is that, had he been allowed to stay, the Lightning would still be stuck in an endless cycle of "rebuilding," as Dudley continued to stockpile picks and prospects -- because, ultimately, that's where his interest lies. Not in winning games, not in chasing division titles, not even in building Stanley Cup contenders. Dudley is passionate about one thing and one thing only: raw, undeveloped potential. He'd probably make a great director of scouting, and he may even make a decent interim GM for a team like yours, but in the long run you'll want him gone sooner than later.

Trust us.

petec1978*
10-14-2003, 05:45 PM
1) I was talking about Mezei alone, not comparing him to Sarich.

Oh really? Is that why you ended the paragraph with "I'd take Mezei over Sarich any day of the week?" Now you're backtracking. Nice. You're not only wrong, you're spineless and wrong.

2) Lecavalier's wishes or not wishes aside, the deal that Dudley was able to pursue was a good one. Radek Bonk, Chris Phillips, and #1 rounder

1.) That wasn't the deal. 2.) The deal you just quoted is a HORRIBLE DEAL. You're talking about a guy with 40 goal 90 point superstar potential on the near horizon being dealt off for a 2nd line two-way center, an overrated #4 stay at home d-man, and a draft pick. That's HORRIBLE. Wait, HORRIBLE deal? No... you're right, maybe that was the deal. Sounds like something numbnuts Dudley would do.

3)You mean like Matthew Barnaby and Zdeno Ciger? No, I don't.

You sat there and said that Lecavalier couldn't have succeeded without the players Dudley provided. Other than Prospal, NOT ONE of Dudley's acquisitions has had any long term success on Lecavalier's line. The list of complete and abysmal failures is long and laughable. Players like the aforementioned Ciger and Barnaby, not to mention bottomfeeders like Todd Warriner, Mike Johnson, Yogi Svejkovsky etc etc.

Dudley did NOTHING for Lecavalier's career. Feaster did more for Vinny just by telling Tortorella to shut his mouth in the media than Rick Dudley did in THREE freaking years! He didn't even have the spine/brains to do that for his franchise player. No, Dudley would rather throw up his arms and give Lecavalier away for more picks/prospects.

"Yaaaaaaaayyyyyy! Rick Dudley is a genius!"

4) Prospal lost?

He damn sure doesn't look like a 79 point player without #4 centering him does he? This season will prove what a few Lightning fans have known all along... Prospal was a one year wonder freeloading off the coattails of a young superstar on the rise. I'm actually happier with Stillman than I was having Prospal on the team, because if you look at Stillman's career, he's been the better and more consistent player of the two throughout.

At least you can't say Rick Dudley let go of your leading scorer, can you? No.

Traded Darcy Tucker didn't he? Tucker lead the team in scoring in '98-'99 and he was gone in under a year under Dudley. You're right, Dudley would NEVER do something so foolish as to trade the Lightning's leading scorer. Not to mention, he tried to trade Vincent Lecavalier.

6) Crutch?

Yes. In my over 6 years of dealing with "Panther fan" I've learned they have two crutches they always lean on when the argument is going against them. The first is the all-time season series record, and the second is that you got swept 7 years ago in the Cup finals... as if either matters. What matters is in the present we finished 23 points ahead of your sorry team. You're not even in the same rent district as the Tampa Bay Lightning, so for you to talk smack is LAUGHABLE.

8) What I think we would all like to see, is the roster and positional depth charts that Dudley began with and the end result of his tenure.

At the end of his tenure he tried to give away Vincent Lecavalier and Cory Sarich for next to nothing and got fired for it! Why don't we subtract Sarich and Lecavalier from the list and see how Dudley fares in that comparison because that is what he would've don had he not been pushed out of the door.

Dudley INHERITED a better list of players than people give the previous regime credit for: (6 players left on Lightning roster)

FORWARDS: Vincent Lecavalier, Brad Richards, Michael Nylander, Chris Gratton, Andreas Johansson, Mike Sillinger, Dimitry Afanasenkov, Martin Cibak

DEFENSEMEN: Pavel Kubina, Jassen Cullimore, Petr Svoboda, Paul Mara, Cory Cross

Dudley LEFT: (9 players left on Lightning roster)
FORWARDS: Martin St. Louis, Vaclav Prospal (who is sucking donkey without Lecavalier), Fredrik Modin, Dave Andreychuk, Ben Clymer, Tim Taylor

DEFENSEMEN: Cory Sarich, Dan Boyle, Stan Neckar, Nolan Pratt (three of the four you've criticized, so don't be a hypocrite and throw roses at the feet of this set of d-men Dudley added)

GOALTENDER: Nikolai Khabibulin (in a deal with Cliff Fletcher which made itself)

Feaster has already ADDED: 8 players
FORWARDS: Cory Stillman, Ruslan Fedotenko, Chris Dingman, Andre Roy

DEFENSEMEN: Brad Lukowich, Janne Laukkanen, Darren Rumble

GOALTENDER:
John Grahame

We were closer to having a decent team talent wise in '98-'99 than anyone gives us credit for. The assumption is that Dudley inherited this horrible desert of a hockey team and that is FALSE. He prolonged the agony of the rebuilding process by giving away guys like Nylander and Johansson and Tucker for what ultimately amounts to nothing.

Take a look at it Panthers fans: only 9 players on the Lightning's current 23 man roster came from Rick Dudley. LESS THAN HALF.

Why don't we show the opening night roster of the Lightning now? I mean if this is SO CLEARLY Rick Dudley's team, surely it will be dominated by Dudley's players, right?

1st line:
Cory Stillman: Trade (Feaster)
Brad Richards: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Martin St. Louis: Free Agent (Dudley)

2nd line:
Dimitry Afanasenkov: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Vincent Lecavalier: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Ruslan Fedotenko: Trade (Feaster)

3rd Line:
Chris Dingman: Trade (Feaster)
Tim Taylor: Trade (Dudley)
Dave Andreychuk: Trade (Dudley)

4th Line:
Fredrik Modin: Trade (Dudley)
Martin Cibak: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Ben Clymer: Free Agent (Dudley)

So less than half of the team's opening night forwards were Dudley acquisitions and only one guy on the scoring lines came from Dudley. Explain to me how this is "Dudley's team" again?

Defensemen:
Jassen Cullimore: Waivers (Espo/Demers)
Cory Sarich: Trade (Dudley)

Brad Lukowich: Trade (Feaster)
Pavel Kubina: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)

Nolan Pratt: Trade (Dudley)
Dan Boyle: Trade (Dudley)

So only half of the d-men came from Dudley, two of whom you "genius" Panther fans have already said "suck" in Sarich and Pratt. And only one of the top-four defensemen from opening night were from Dudley. Explain to me how this is "Dudley's team" again?

Goaltender:
Nikolai Khabibulin: Trade(Dudley)

So only 9 of the 19 players that played on opening night came from Rick Dudley (LESS THAN HALF) and only THREE of them played in the key positions on the top two lines, top two pairings, or between the pipes on opening night. Explain to me how this is "Dudley's team" again? Only 3 guys in the top 11 positions. COME ON PANTHER FAN. JUSTIFY IT. TELL ME HOW THIS IS "DUDLEY'S TEAM" AGAIN!!!

Know what else is HILLARIOUS? Rick Dudley is supposed to be "Yoda, Master of the Draft" and the prospect guru. Do you see ANY Rick Dudley draft picks on this roster. Just ONE? Find me ONE, Panther fan, who made the team.

Further proof Dudley inherited a lot more than Panther fan thinks he did: the number of drafted players that came from the Espo/Demers era that made the Lightning's opening night roster versus from Dudley's:

Espo/Demers/Murdoch era: 5 (Richards, Lecavalier, Afanasenkov, Cibak, Kubina)
Rick Dudley era: 0

WHAT?!?!?! How can this be Panther fan? If Rick Dudley inherited NOTHING how can it be that there are 5 players drafted during the Espo/Demers/Murdoch and NONE from when Dudley was doing the drafting. NONE. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

But he's "Yoda, Master of the Draft" isn't he??? No, Panther fan, he's "Yoda, Master of Drafting on the Front Row" because the only thing he could win is a DOG SHOW. He's a terrible GM.

So now that I've fulfilled your request Panther fan, do me a favor and post Rick Dudley's W-L-T-OTL record from the Lightning and Panthers combined. C'mon Panther fan, if Rick Dudley is truly a "genius" surely he'll have a record you can be proud of right?

-Pete Choquette

PanthersRule96
10-14-2003, 05:47 PM
When Tampa consistently beats us like we did to you 3-4 years ago and Dudley is the one to blame, then I'll believe you guys. It's pointless to argue about this.

I'll admit it you guys.......Dudley is destroying our franchise. Pittsburg has more hope than us. Man, he totally ruined Tampa and Ottawa. Man, just because of Feaster and Muckler, they're still surviving. :rolleyes:

petec1978*
10-14-2003, 05:50 PM
What has been said, in a nutshell, is this:

Rick Dudley came to Tampa, inherited a decent group of players and prospects, made a whole crapload of trades (of varying quality), acquired a whole crapload of players (of varying quality), stuck around long enough to see a small handful of them succeed and the overwhelming majority of them fail, then got canned when he couldn't get the team over the hump precisely because of his compulsive need to keep tinkering with his precious "assets," including those that every single other person in the organization considered "untouchable"; and in the end he left behind a group of players and prospects that was marginally improved over what we had when he arrived. The general consensus in Tampa is that, had he been allowed to stay, the Lightning would still be stuck in an endless cycle of "rebuilding," as Dudley continued to stockpile picks and prospects -- because, ultimately, that's where his interest lies. Not in winning games, not in chasing division titles, not even in building Stanley Cup contenders. Dudley is passionate about one thing and one thing only: raw, undeveloped potential. He'd probably make a great director of scouting, and he may even make a decent interim GM for a team like yours, but in the long run you'll want him gone sooner than later.

Trust us.

Amen.

Testify Brother Joe.

-Pete Choquette

petec1978*
10-14-2003, 05:54 PM
When Tampa consistently beats us like we did to you 3-4 years ago

When?

MEMO to PANTHER FAN: We're already beating your ***.

he totally ruined Tampa and Ottawa.

Actually, and this is the funny thing, when we first got Dudley I remember Ottawa fans coming to me and telling me how much they hated him and how much I would eventually hate him too. Lo and behold! They were right.

-Pete Choquette

PanthersRule96
10-14-2003, 05:59 PM
[QUOTE=petec19781st line:
Cory Stillman: Trade (Feaster)
Brad Richards: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Martin St. Louis: Free Agent (Dudley)

2nd line:
Dimitry Afanasenkov: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Vincent Lecavalier: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Ruslan Fedotenko: Trade (Feaster)

3rd Line:
Chris Dingman: Trade (Feaster)
Tim Taylor: Trade (Dudley)
Dave Andreychuk: Trade (Dudley)

4th Line:
Fredrik Modin: Trade (Dudley)
Martin Cibak: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Ben Clymer: Free Agent (Dudley)

So less than half of the team's opening night forwards were Dudley acquisitions and only one guy on the scoring lines came from Dudley. Explain to me how this is "Dudley's team" again?

Defensemen:
Jassen Cullimore: Waivers (Espo/Demers)
Cory Sarich: Trade (Dudley)

Brad Lukowich: Trade (Feaster)
Pavel Kubina: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)

Nolan Pratt: Trade (Dudley)
Dan Boyle: Trade (Dudley)

So only half of the d-men came from Dudley, two of whom you "genius" Panther fans have already said "suck" in Sarich and Pratt. And only one of the top-four defensemen from opening night were from Dudley. Explain to me how this is "Dudley's team" again?

Goaltender:
Nikolai Khabibulin: Trade(Dudley)

-Pete Choquette[/QUOTE]

St Louis, Boyle, Khabibulin, Andrechuk, and Modin are like all key players on your team, or Modin at least used to be. They're like your core allong with Vinny and Kubina. Vinny was a no brainer with the first pick.

According to you guys, it seems you'd rather have Fedotenko over Pitkanen.

Nearly worthless acquisitions by feaster.

Chris Dingman, Andre Roy, Brad Lukowich, Janne Laukkanen, Darren Rumble

Lukowich is alright. You know, he was the reason you guys went so far. He was better than Boyle because he was brought in by feaster.

Dudley wasn't the main one trying to trade your golden boy, Lecavalier. He was sulking and combating with management.

9/23 came from Dudley. 7/23 are key players.

PanthersRule96
10-14-2003, 06:01 PM
When?

MEMO to PANTHER FAN: We're already beating your ***.

-Pete Choquette

For 1 year. We dominated your then-sorry a**** for like 10 years.

Clash*
10-14-2003, 06:10 PM
Can we close this thread and let the Mules of Tampa go back to the farms of Lakeland and Zephyrhills and graze a bit more?