Umberger/Bertuzzi: Contract Status?

Reign Nateo
10-06-2003, 11:19 AM
RJ Umberger has yet to sign (unless I'm missing something) and Bertuzzi's self imposed deadline is up, so what happens to Umberger? and will the Canucks be able to get Bertuzzi signed in the off season if they couldn't now?

Peter Griffin
10-06-2003, 12:50 PM
It's Monday, and we all know what Burke likes to announce on Mondays!

islandnucker
10-06-2003, 02:04 PM
It's Monday, and we all know what Burke likes to announce on Mondays!
Big Mac deal day :dunno:

Burke's Evil Spirit
10-06-2003, 02:36 PM
Monday...the day before Twoney Tuesday at KFC? Sweet!

Peter Griffin
10-06-2003, 02:54 PM
Except Burke doesn't announce that it's Big Mac day at Mcdonald's(that's Tuesdays ;) ) or the day before Twoney Tuesday's at KFC...or maybe he does. :dunno:

colonel_korn
10-06-2003, 03:10 PM
Except Burke doesn't announce that it's Big Mac day at Mcdonald's(that's Tuesdays ;) ) or the day before Twoney Tuesday's at KFC...or maybe he does. :dunno:

Well, apparently today he has nothing to announce...:dunno:

Ironchef Chris Wok*
10-06-2003, 07:44 PM
I love how our lives revolve around when food is Cheap...

cyrisweb
10-07-2003, 12:44 AM
Except Burke doesn't announce that it's Big Mac day at Mcdonald's(that's Tuesdays ;) ) or the day before Twoney Tuesday's at KFC...or maybe he does. :dunno:

Whats big mac day at mcdonalds??

Peter Griffin
10-07-2003, 07:29 AM
Whats big mac day at mcdonalds??

$1.49 Big Mac's on Tuesdays...

PigPen
10-07-2003, 08:16 AM
I wish today was wednesday so I could get a hamburger for 29 cents at Mcdonalds baby...

How much is Bluto asking for as an extension and how much does Umberger want?

incawg
10-07-2003, 08:29 AM
I wish today was wednesday so I could get a hamburger for 29 cents at Mcdonalds baby...

peace outside

theo6060
10-08-2003, 10:09 AM
RJ Umberger has yet to sign (unless I'm missing something) and Bertuzzi's self imposed deadline is up, so what happens to Umberger? and will the Canucks be able to get Bertuzzi signed in the off season if they couldn't now?Umberger's still unsigned and from what I've been hearing may remain so for a while (maybe the whole season). Bertuzzi's deadline is tomorrow (Oct. 9) so if I were Brian Burke I'd get on my ass and send him another offer. If BB doesn't get his name on a contract today or tomorrow then there is a chance that Bertuzzi walks for nothing. The new CBA is talking about changing the age of UFA from 31 to 29. Bertuzzi turns 29 in February, therefore if Burke doesn't sign him before July 1 and that new CBA kicks in (doubtful, but possible) then Bertuzzi would be able to sign elsewhere.

incawg
10-08-2003, 10:27 AM
Umberger's still unsigned and from what I've been hearing may remain so for a while (maybe the whole season). Bertuzzi's deadline is tomorrow (Oct. 9) so if I were Brian Burke I'd get on my ass and send him another offer. If BB doesn't get his name on a contract today or tomorrow then there is a chance that Bertuzzi walks for nothing. The new CBA is talking about changing the age of UFA from 31 to 29. Bertuzzi turns 29 in February, therefore if Burke doesn't sign him before July 1 and that new CBA kicks in (doubtful, but possible) then Bertuzzi would be able to sign elsewhere.

Bertuzzi apparently sent the canucks an offer that they're "mulling over".

Umberger is going to lose out BIG if he holds out. It's a virtual lock that rookies are going to be the first thing the NHLPA caves on in the new CBA. Not only will he lose a valuable year if he holds out, he's also going to lose significant money. Hopefully both sides can come to an agreement.

MiketheCurler
10-08-2003, 11:08 AM
Bertuzzi's agent rejected a $5.5 million deal over 2 years I believe, but as stated above they did send in a counter offer so at least things might be close.

Hopefully he'll be signed before tomorrow.

OSUHawkeGenius
10-08-2003, 06:00 PM
Umberger will not lose out by sitting out the whole year. He will become a free agent june 1 and have 3 1/2 months to sign in the open market before the cba ends. And I'm predicting that it won't take long for him to sign come June 1. The low amount of money that Vancouver is offering will easily be made up once he signs with another team. He will get atleast a million signing bonus.

Peter Griffin
10-08-2003, 06:03 PM
Umberger will not lose out by sitting out the whole year. He will become a free agent june 1 and have 3 1/2 months to sign in the open market before the cba ends. And I'm predicting that it won't take long for him to sign come June 1. The low amount of money that Vancouver is offering will easily be made up once he signs with another team. He will get atleast a million signing bonus.

But will anyone want to sign him after not playing any hockey for a whole season?

Waveburner
10-08-2003, 06:05 PM
Umberger will not lose out by sitting out the whole year. He will become a free agent june 1 and have 3 1/2 months to sign in the open market before the cba ends. And I'm predicting that it won't take long for him to sign come June 1. The low amount of money that Vancouver is offering will easily be made up once he signs with another team. He will get atleast a million signing bonus.

Right, with a lockout looming, some team is going to immediately offer over 1 million dollars for prospect who has not played hockey in a year, and refused to sign with the team that drafted him. I think Umberger is in for a long wait. Teams are going to wait until the new CBA before signing prospects-and they definitely won't be dolling out signing bonuses when the season might not even happen.

incawg
10-08-2003, 06:09 PM
Umberger will not lose out by sitting out the whole year. He will become a free agent june 1 and have 3 1/2 months to sign in the open market before the cba ends. And I'm predicting that it won't take long for him to sign come June 1. The low amount of money that Vancouver is offering will easily be made up once he signs with another team. He will get atleast a million signing bonus.

Uhm, did you notice that the "open market" this summer was like no other "open market" the NHL has ever seen? Players left, right, and center were forced to take paycuts as UFAs. And if you thought last year was bad, just wait until this summer. It is extremely naive to think that just because the new CBA has not been enacted that it won't still have a large effect. Umberger is going to lose out huge by sitting out this year. It's just as dumb and stubborn - if not more so - for Umberger not to sign for what's being offered as it is for the Canucks not to rise to his demands.

Waveburner
10-08-2003, 06:14 PM
Can anyone name a time when players "signed" under an existing CBA, suddenly got out of previous ties when new rules came into effect under a new CBA?

Not sure if I worded that coherently or not, but my point is why do people think Bertuzzi will be able to walk away after this season? We qualify him July 1. The CBA does not expire until September. Do you know what kind of legal hassle it would be to completely override the previous CBA? It is damn near impossible. Bertuzzi is a RFA and will be until after his NEXT contract expires. It is not even an issue.

In all pro sports, when the old CBA expires, a new one is reached-BUT all contracts signed/tendered under the previous CBA are still under the effect of the old system. It is pretty damn universal.

Peter Griffin
10-08-2003, 06:32 PM
Can anyone name a time when players "signed" under an existing CBA, suddenly got out of previous ties when new rules came into effect under a new CBA?

Not sure if I worded that coherently or not, but my point is why do people think Bertuzzi will be able to walk away after this season? We qualify him July 1. The CBA does not expire until September. Do you know what kind of legal hassle it would be to completely override the previous CBA? It is damn near impossible. Bertuzzi is a RFA and will be until after his NEXT contract expires. It is not even an issue.

In all pro sports, when the old CBA expires, a new one is reached-BUT all contracts signed/tendered under the previous CBA are still under the effect of the old system. It is pretty damn universal.

Exactly. The League isn't going to go through the hassle of throwing out old contracts under the old CBA, it's just too much work. It also wouldn't be fair to give the Canucks the impression that Bertuzzi would re-main their property under the new CBA, and then reverse that and not honour the qualifying offer. Either they tell all teams straight up that all agreements heading into the CBA will not be honoured or they don't mess around with contracts that were made under the old CBA.

SaintRon
10-10-2003, 02:26 AM
Umberger will not lose out by sitting out the whole year. He will become a free agent june 1 and have 3 1/2 months to sign in the open market before the cba ends. And I'm predicting that it won't take long for him to sign come June 1. The low amount of money that Vancouver is offering will easily be made up once he signs with another team. He will get atleast a million signing bonus.

Don't let this kid get away Canucks' fans....The powers that be in the Burgh are watching, waiting and praying he's not signed. If Vancouver fails to sign him, he'll be scooped up in 2 shakes....

Out of curosity, what kind of money is he being offered?

Hobo
10-10-2003, 06:56 AM
He would be a candidate for close to the rookie max under the CBA which I think is close to $1 million. But the problem is the Joe Thornton bonuses on bonuses - and you know B.B. will dig his fat Irish heels in and say he's not going to offer big money to a kid who's never scored a point as a pro when he's got players like Matt Cooke making $525. Umberger came out here last year and was bunking with the Klatts. My guess is he's a kid who's heart is in the mid-west and he's hoping to weasel out of Vancouver into an American market. He should be a big boy, sign as short a deal as he can, come out and show he's ready to play, spend a lovely warm winter in Winnipeg, then shop himself under the new CBA if he doesn't want to play for the greatest hockey franchise in the history of time.

Wetcoaster
10-10-2003, 09:37 AM
He would be a candidate for close to the rookie max under the CBA which I think is close to $1 million. But the problem is the Joe Thornton bonuses on bonuses - and you know B.B. will dig his fat Irish heels in and say he's not going to offer big money to a kid who's never scored a point as a pro when he's got players like Matt Cooke making $525. Umberger came out here last year and was bunking with the Klatts. My guess is he's a kid who's heart is in the mid-west and he's hoping to weasel out of Vancouver into an American market. He should be a big boy, sign as short a deal as he can, come out and show he's ready to play, spend a lovely warm winter in Winnipeg, then shop himself under the new CBA if he doesn't want to play for the greatest hockey franchise in the history of time.

Burke is an idiot and a horrible contract negotiator as he proved during his first tour of duty in Vancouver (Bure, Nedved , Linden the Krutov arbitration, etc.). He now usually leaves contracts in the more than capable hands of Dave Nonis because everytime he gets involved things blow up - as here.

If Umberger signs any contract other than what he has asked for then he loses his free agency status and his leverage - until you hit 31 and are a free agent few player have such leverage and you do not give it up. Why would he possibly want to do anything that stupid which would take away his options when he can wait until June 2004 and become a free agent under the Van Ryn exception?

Actually Umberger is from Pittsburgh but he played three years at Ohio State. At the moment as long as Umberger is prepared to hold out until June 2004, he can have his pick of teams. I suspect there are any number of them who would sign potential No. 6 forward playing as a big centre with soft hands, great skating and a huge offensive upside. Remember he was a Hobey Baker finalist last year leading Ohio State in scoring and was slated to captain the team if he returned. Ryan Kesler put up good numbers as well but that was playing with Umberger, when he was moved off the line his production dropped - Umberger kept putting up points.

His agent has said repeatedly that he wants to sign in Vancouver but that he wants to be paid the same as other draft picks in the first round, some of whom were drafted below him.

The amount that Umberger is seeking is not out of line with other prospects drafted that year and that is all you can go by as these players are signed before playing in the NHL. Your argument that Umberger should take less than others in his situation have taken and prove himself is completely out of step with how first round contracts are signed. They prove themselves by making the NHL after the contract is signed. Second rounders often sign for the past year's rookie maximum as did Mike Camalleri drafted at #49 that year by LA ($1.075). The problem with US college players is that they cannot sign contracts, sign with agents or come to NHL rookie camps without losing their college eligibility. So you pay them based on where they went in the draft.

Under the CBA he will be locked in for three years and the contract is automatically a two way deal at a much reduced minor pro rate. You seem to be ignoring the latter provision because if he is not good enough then he spends time in the AHL at the much reduced rate. If he does well and hits his bonuses (unlike Allen and the Sedins) then the Canucks should be happy given their past first rounders as noted above. Remember it was Burke this year who said he was happy to pay the contract bonuses to Naslund, Bertuzzi and Jovanovski if they earned them. If Burke wants to teach him a lesson - sign him and bury him in the AHL for two or three years - that will "teach him" and the Canucks will not be much out of pocket while Umberger at least will be playing and learning the system. You then at least have an asset under contract that you can package in a deal if you want and not simply lose for a compensatory second round pick.

BTW here is what I have found on other first rounders of his year all signed at the rookie maximium. Umberger was drafted #12:

7. Komisarek
9. Ruutu
10. Blackburn
13. Hemsky
17. Colaiacovo

Burke's position makes little sense because if Umberger is not good enough to crack the NHL and goes to the minors, then he automatically will be paid the lesser amount in the minors since all rookie contracts are automatically two-way per the CBA. If he is good enough to play and make the bonuses which are not that easy to achieve (note the Sedins never made theirs even with all the quality ice team they were given nor did Bryan Allen who all received rookie maximum contracts and few rookies ever do), then he should be a find. Burke is being stupid and stubborn but that is not unusual given his past negotiating history.

Why play hardball with someone who can simply wait you out and sell his services to the highest bidder under the terms of the CBA? If he signs with another team as a free agent the best Burke can obtain is a compensatory pick at the end of the second round (#61 plus) which is not a good deal for an overall #12 pick.

Here is the analysis of his talent from Hockey Futures:

"Umberger is an excellent blend of size and skill. For a big young man, he skates almost effortlessly, with a smooth, powerful stride which often leaves opposing forwards in his tracks. His offensive game is still a tad unpolished, yet well-developed for a younger player. Good passing skills, and a hard shot are attributes that describe him well.

Defensively, it has been said in the past that Umberger is a player who lacks desire. He is not always overly willing to come back and help out in his own zone; which has brought others to think that he's unmotivated. That said, he still needs a bit of work in this area.

One other thing he would be well-advised to work on is his physical play. For someone with such good size, Umberger is not overly physical. If he were to add this element to his game, and put on some weight, we might see the second-coming of Todd Bertuzzi, although probably less skilled."

As the Canucks have been looking for a big centre for years, it would be stupid to lose one with this amount of potential. However we are dealing with Brian Burke after all, not noted for his smarts when it comes to such things.

Hobo
10-10-2003, 11:47 AM
Ouch. I don't doubt what you say - I guess I'm not very sympathetic to the grind for "market value" when players haven't proven they can play at the top level. I'd just love to see an obviously talented kid moving his career forward with the club.

Wetcoaster
10-10-2003, 12:07 PM
Ouch. I don't doubt what you say - I guess I'm not very sympathetic to the grind for "market value" when players haven't proven they can play at the top level. I'd just love to see an obviously talented kid moving his career forward with the club.

My post was not intended as an attack but simply setting out how rookie contracts are negotiated.

First rounders never have prove they can play at the NHL level before signing the contract - it is the draft position that determines their initial contract thanks to the rookie salary cap and two-way contract ("The Alexandre Daigle Rule") pushed for by the owners in the last CBA. They are signed and then are given the chance. As I noted with college players this is especially true because they lose their NCAA college eligibility if they even attend rookie camps or hire an agent.

The only one swimming against the current here is Burke and he picked the wrong case to get muley. This is not a Peter Schaefer drafted in the third round who is a restricted free agent with no negotiating leverage.