Calgary/Buffalo proposal....

Calgary needs a backup goalie...Buffalo has a stockpile of goalies.....

To Calgary: Noronen, 2nd round pick
To Buffalo: Gauthier

Buffalo gets a crease clearing D-man and gets rid of their goalie problem (though, they create a D-man problem) and allows Ryan Miller to split time with Biron.

Calgary needs a backup goalie...Buffalo has a stockpile of goalies.....

To Calgary: Noronen, 2nd round pick
To Buffalo: Gauthier

Buffalo gets a crease clearing D-man and gets rid of their goalie problem (though, they create a D-man problem) and allows Ryan Miller to split time with Biron.


Gauthier's too a steep price to pay for a guy who'll be their backup.Flames were unable to move Turek's big salary and he's got 3 more yrs left on his deal.

Plus, the Sabres are currently carrying 8 NHL defensemen and this makes that situation worse.

Unless the Sabres have another deal in place to add some forward depth to help with the fact that they've lost Begin and Hecht in the last week, then I don't see this making a whole lot of sense for the Sabres.

If Noronen is getting dangled, I'd expect it to be for a depth, gritty forward rather than a defenseman.

Calgary needs a backup goalie...Buffalo has a stockpile of goalies.....

To Calgary: Noronen, 2nd round pick
To Buffalo: Gauthier

Buffalo gets a crease clearing D-man and gets rid of their goalie problem (though, they create a D-man problem) and allows Ryan Miller to split time with Biron.

Overpay twice. Once, for Gauthier, the second time his salary.

Since Buffalo doesn't need a defensemen what about:

Chris Clark, 4th
for
Noronen

It gives Buffalo a good 3rd line player capable of scoring 10-15 goals a season and good pick. The Flames get a good back-up capable of pushing Turek.

Plus, the Sabres are currently carrying 8 NHL defensemen and this makes that situation worse.

Unless the Sabres have another deal in place to add some forward depth to help with the fact that they've lost Begin and Hecht in the last week, then I don't see this making a whole lot of sense for the Sabres.

If Noronen is getting dangled, I'd expect it to be for a depth, gritty forward rather than a defenseman.

Unless Regier packages one of our "finesse" d-men (i.e. Campbell) for a tougher one.

Unless Regier packages one of our "finesse" d-men (i.e. Campbell) for a tougher one.

Regier would have to have a deal in place to move Campbell for a gritty forward for the initial deal to make any sense as Gauthier would be the gritty defenseman that the Sabres added.

Overpay twice. Once, for Gauthier, the second time his salary.

I wouldn't call Gauthier overpaid at $1.3 million.

The question I have is how long is the deal for. I'm guessing it's up after this season and that worries me a little bit.

Regier would have to have a deal in place to move Campbell for a gritty forward for the initial deal to make any sense as Gauthier would be the gritty defenseman that the Sabres added.

Unless Calgary wanted more of an offensive threat from the backend...which I'm not sure about. The original proposal would have to expand obviously.

Look at this trade from Calgary's perspective...

I think they would much prefer having Turek/McLennan with Denis Gauthier on defense then having Turek/Nornonen without him.

A tough, bruising defenseman who is young and makes just $1.3 million is worth *a lot* more then a back up goalie.

Unless Calgary wanted more of an offensive threat from the backend...which I'm not sure about. The original proposal would have to expand obviously.

Washington has said they are looking for a servicable Defensemen for some of their depth players.....so maybe.....

To Buffalo: Gauthier
To Calgary: Noronen, 2nd round pick

To Buffalo: Grier
To Washington:Tallinder

Buffalo gets tougher up front and on D, though they give up quite a bit. Grier, IMHO, is the type of player Buffalo needs badly.

Look at this trade from Calgary's perspective...

I think they would much prefer having Turek/McLennan with Denis Gauthier on defense then having Turek/Nornonen without him.

A tough, bruising defenseman who is young and makes just $1.3 million is worth *a lot* more then a back up goalie.

Gauthier isn't really that young. He's 27. (the same age as Warrener).

I wouldn't call Gauthier overpaid at $1.3 million.

The question I have is how long is the deal for. I'm guessing it's up after this season and that worries me a little bit.

My bad. I was thinking Boughner's $2M+ contract instead of Gauthier's.

Pending UFA with new CBA is a valid concern though. Plus, Gauthier is LH.

Washington has said they are looking for a servicable Defensemen for some of their depth players.....so maybe.....

To Buffalo: Gauthier
To Calgary: Noronen, 2nd round pick

To Buffalo: Grier
To Washington:Tallinder

Buffalo gets tougher up front and on D, though they give up quite a bit. Grier, IMHO, is the type of player Buffalo needs badly.

Giving up Tallinder would haunt Buffalo for many years to come.

I'll give you Trevor Kidd for a 9th rounder.

Giving up Tallinder would haunt Buffalo for many years to come.

I couldn't agree more. I'm high on this guy like a stoner on bud. Tallinder is gonna turn out to be a real hard-nosed guy, someone we need on defense.

Discussion over! Gauthier isn't going anywhere for pucks and picks,his heart is as big as his hits and Sutter loves him.

Now, if you can propose a top 6 scorer for him there may be a conversation :)

Calgary needs a backup goalie...Buffalo has a stockpile of goalies.....

To Calgary: Noronen, 2nd round pick
To Buffalo: Gauthier

Buffalo gets a crease clearing D-man and gets rid of their goalie problem (though, they create a D-man problem) and allows Ryan Miller to split time with Biron.

If it was up to me I'd be seriously considering this deal if I were the Flames. McLennan has been awful in the pre-season, and many fans seem to think the Flames just don't play well in front of him, Sabourin didn't step up enough, and Krahn's apparently having his knee looked at before being assigned (to Las Vegas most likely). I think Noronen could be a good addition to the Flames, pushing Turek and being a viable alternative should Large have a rought stretch. We have plenty of defensive defensman (Warrener, Commodore, Montador, Wallin).

You've got a deal.

^^^
Personly i can't even say the names of Commodore(well maybe, his has impressed me), Montador, Wallin in the same sentence as Gauthier...maybe it's just me.

Washington has said they are looking for a servicable Defensemen for some of their depth players.....so maybe.....

To Buffalo: Gauthier
To Calgary: Noronen, 2nd round pick

To Buffalo: Grier
To Washington:Tallinder

Buffalo gets tougher up front and on D, though they give up quite a bit. Grier, IMHO, is the type of player Buffalo needs badly.

I really like Mike Grier, and it would likely make Chris Drury really happy, but I wouldn't want to give up Tallinder. That would be like giving up Calle Johansson all over again.

I really like Mike Grier, and it would likely make Chris Drury really happy, but I wouldn't want to give up Tallinder. That would be like giving up Calle Johansson all over again.

I agree, I'd rather give up Campbell than Tallinder. I'm having a hard time seeing Soupy's role now that Delmore is here. But, none of this addresses the real probelm, which is our lack of a Right handed Defenseman to play along side Zhitnik.

Ta,

Gauthier is just starting to enter his prime (28-32), so lets drop the whole "he's 27!" bull**** because it doesn't work that way with defenceman.

Noronen is 24 and *still* hasn't secured a backup role in Buffalo.

Like Giguere? My bad, he was 23.

Maybe competing with Brathwaite and a washed up Fuhr ain't quite as tough as competing with Biron and Miller.

And it does work that way for defensemen. There are plenty of defensemen who made an impact at an early age: Zhitnik, Blake, Pronger, etc..

Gauthier isn't going to get dramatically better, and he causes too many chances for the opposition by going out of his way to hit people. I'd prefer to keep Noronen.

Like Giguere? My bad, he was 23.

Maybe competing with Brathwaite and a washed up Fuhr ain't quite as tough as competing with Biron and Miller.

And it does work that way for defensemen. There are plenty of defensemen who made an impact at an early age: Zhitnik, Blake, Pronger, etc..

Gauthier isn't going to get dramatically better, and he causes too many chances for the opposition by going out of his way to hit people. I'd prefer to keep Noronen.

And if you are looking for a Zhitnik, Blake, Pronger, etc.. for Noronen, you are going to be sadly disappointed.

27 is not old, period.

Did I say I was looking for a top defenseman for Noronen? Stop putting words in my mouth. The poster I responded to said that defensemen take longer to mature (which I have heard about goalies and power forwards too). The examples I mentioned indicate how fallacious that myth is.

27 isn't old. Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said 27 is old. You have hit your prime at 27. You will not dramatically improve at 27. You are what you are at 27. You aren't old at 27 and may have 8 good years left, but you will not dramatically improve.

Did I say I was looking for a top defenseman for Noronen? Stop putting words in my mouth. The poster I responded to said that defensemen take longer to mature (which I have heard about goalies and power forwards too). The examples I mentioned indicate how fallacious that myth is.

27 isn't old. Again, stop putting words in my mouth. I never said 27 is old. You have hit your prime at 27. You will not dramatically improve at 27. You are what you are at 27. You aren't old at 27 and may have 8 good years left, but you will not dramatically improve.

Your examples of defencemen that were great at a young age is comprised ENTIRELY of top defencemen. If those are the only names you can pull, then perhaps it is true that defencemen take longer to mature and come into their own. Gauthier should be coming out of a development period, and into his prime...which makes him a GOOD asset.

Gauthier is a good return for Noronen.

Gauthier is just starting to enter his prime (28-32), so lets drop the whole "he's 27!" bull**** because it doesn't work that way with defenceman.

Noronen is 24 and *still* hasn't secured a backup role in Buffalo.

On one hand you're pleading with people to consider how young Gauthier is.

On the other hand you're writing off a goalie at age 24 (several years younger than Gauthier) who plays a position which generally steps in several years later than most defensemen.

Noronen is far from washed up at 24. You want to see a list of goalies that didn't establish themselves in the NHL until after that age? It's a LONG, LONG list...

Personally I think Gauthier's pretty much peaked. It's not like he's going to get significantly better, he hasn't been getting better for the past few years. I see Commodore as passing him on the depth chart in the next season and a half.

I'd do the deal for Noronen and a 2nd.

Personally I think Gauthier's pretty much peaked. It's not like he's going to get significantly better, he hasn't been getting better for the past few years. I see Commodore as passing him on the depth chart in the next season and a half.


I'm not going to get into a pissing match about Gauthier but i'll say this.before this season started i thought the Flames would trade him for sure! but he showed at camp 10lbs lighter in great shape and has really impressed in preseason.

Your going to need a crowbar to get him from Sutter at this point.

Your going to need a crowbar to get him from Sutter at this point.

gauthier for a crowbar?

how about the Shark Corp model 21-2145?

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004TBQL.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

This double-tempered baby is made with high-carbon chromium steel for extra strength and I-beam construction ensures lightweight quality.

deal.

Your examples of defencemen that were great at a young age is comprised ENTIRELY of top defencemen. If those are the only names you can pull, then perhaps it is true that defencemen take longer to mature and come into their own. Gauthier should be coming out of a development period, and into his prime...which makes him a GOOD asset.

Gauthier is a good return for Noronen.

Those aren't the only names I can pull, and I am certainly not going to list several hundred names of defensemen that made it early. Do your own homework, or keep stating myths.

Gauthier's in his prime and won't get significantly better. He's also at an age where he might be an UFA due to a new CBA. Buffalo already has 6 LD, including 4 I'd play right now in front of Gauthier. Sure, Buffalo needs a more physical defense, but Gauthier isn't on the list because he's LD.

If you don't already know the story behind this, then you have no clue about the game. Giguere was crap the year the Flames traded him, he wouldn't have made any team in the NHL at that time. The trade kicked him in the ass and made him realize that he'd been given up on by two different teams (Carolina gave up on him before the Flames did, at a much younger age I might add) and that he should probably get his act together if he ever wants to make the NHL. Essentially, Giguere was an immature little brat, and needed someone to kick him out the door to straighten him up. Unfortunately the Flames weren't the team to benefit from him getting his stuff together, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.


Giguere was crap the year he was dealt? A .914 save percentage is pretty good. He also had the best save percentage and GAA on the Flames.

Player GP Min GA GAA W L T Svs Pct EN SO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jean-Sebastien Giguere 7.00 330 15 2.73 1 3 1 175 0.914 1 0
Fred Brathwaite 61.00 3448 158 2.75 25 25 7 1664 0.905 3 5
Grant Fuhr 23.00 1205 77 3.83 5 13 2 536 0.856 2 0

Has a Flames goalie had a save percentage as high as Giguere's (while Giguere was in Calgary) since Giguere's last year in Calgary? No.

Are you trying to say that Gauthier hasn't made an impact in the NHL? Being one of the most feared hitters in the league is not enough for you? :rolleyes:


Not playing a full season yet is one reason. Constantly getting out of position to make a hit is another. He's a decent 3-4 defenseman, but the Sabres have enough 3-4 defensemen. Why the hell do we need another one?

Speculation. There are countless defenceman who took their career to the next level between 28 and 32 years old. McCabe, Carney, Foote, Chelios, etc. Defensive defenceman especially seem to really hit their stride in that age range. So how can you say that Guathier won't get better? That's very shortsighted of you.


McCabe was 27 when he had his best year, two years ago.
Chelios was 27 when he won his first Norris Trophy. He was 22 when he played in his first All Star game. A late bloomer, indeed.
Foote was already a force by 1995-6, when he was 25.
Carney's best years were in 1995-7, with Chicago. And once again, he was under 27.

Or to add another example, Derek Morris broke out at 25.

Perhaps you should pick examples that back up your argument instead of mine.

Oh, and you can keep the eternal bubble backup Noronen.

Gladly.

And for accuracy, here's last years performance of Noronen vs. Calgary's goaltenders:

Player GP Min GA GAA W L T Svs Pct EN SO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mika Noronen 16.00 891 36 2.42 4 9 3 375 0.912 2 1

Player GP Min GA GAA W L T Svs Pct EN SO
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roman Turek 65.00 3822 164 2.57 27 29 9 1515 0.902 4 4
Jamie McLennan 22.00 1165 58 2.99 2 11 4 479 0.892 2 0

On one hand you're pleading with people to consider how young Gauthier is.

On the other hand you're writing off a goalie at age 24 (several years younger than Gauthier) who plays a position which generally steps in several years later than most defensemen.

Noronen is far from washed up at 24. You want to see a list of goalies that didn't establish themselves in the NHL until after that age? It's a LONG, LONG list...

Personally I think Gauthier's pretty much peaked. It's not like he's going to get significantly better, he hasn't been getting better for the past few years. I see Commodore as passing him on the depth chart in the next season and a half.

I'd do the deal for Noronen and a 2nd.

Goalies may take longer in terms of age, but not in terms of games. There are plenty of goalies who take long in terms of age, like Hasek or Kolzig. However, once they get playing time, it becomes apparent within a few seasons if they are great. The average age at which Vezina (going back to current meaning of the award only) winners won their first Vezina is 24.5 (and that includes Hasek and Kolzig). That's why I don't want to give up on Noronen. There are plenty of goalies who have been given up on and then go on to be great (Hasek, Giguere). I'd be much more inclined to deal Biron than Noronen.

Agree about Gauthier.

I'm not going to get into a pissing match about Gauthier but i'll say this.before this season started i thought the Flames would trade him for sure! but he showed at camp 10lbs lighter in great shape and has really impressed in preseason.


Your the first person I've heard suggest that he "really impressed" in the preseason. I thought he was quite average in the two games I saw.

Last season was by far his best. After Giguere he was easily the catalyst to the Ducks making it deep into the playoffs. You are obviously just looking up +/- stats, so typical. Me 3, You 0.



If I were you , I wouldn't get him started on +/-, just a suggestion....

Refresh yourself as to whom you're talking.


I'm not sure what you mean but.... what I mean is you've obviously never seen LALA go off on +/-. He's not just looking it up, I promise you, he's one of the biggest opponents of that particular stat that you can imagine.

Seven games is enough for you? Go figure, Noronen's numbers are based on only 16 games. Rob Niedermayer has 1G in 1GP, he's bound for a 82G season by your reasoning. :rolleyes::


In 7 games he was above average. Fuhr and Brathwaite were below average. It is a coaching problem that a has been and never was were played over Giguere. Giguere obviously played well in the time he played - something contrary to what you claimed.


You must be pretty happy with those featherweight pushovers in your defensive corps. IF you had any clue whatsoever you'd recognize that playing the "all out" style that Gauthier does occassionally results in injuries. But he has been getting smarter and the only reason he missed 10 games last season was that he took a puck in the face. Oh, he blocks shots too. Lets see you block a hundred shots at a hundred miles an hour and see how you turn out. I challenge you to name a physical defenseman in Gauthier's league that doesn't get injuries on occassion.


Scott Stevens has missed 19 games the past decade. Of course, Stevens is much better than Gauthier, having made the NHL First All Star Team at the age of 24. Another late bloomer.


And how old is Gauthier? Me 1, You 0.


27, meaning he won't get substantially better than he already is NOW, at 27.


You make a Norris trophy sound as if it is no big thing. when I listed these guys I emphasized "defenseive defenceman". Chelios was an All-Star before 27 because of his offensive production, didn't become an elite defensive defenceman until he turned the same age as Gauthier. Me 2, You 0.


Chelios was never a defensive liability. He won a Stanley Cup and was the Habs best defenseman at that time. You don't win Stanley Cups as a defensive liability. How did I make a Norris Trophy sound as if it was no big thing? Oh, I get it, you are trying to put words in my mouth. Chelios won a Norris Trophy at 27. How the hell do you improve substantially after that?


He didn't become a top-pairing until 98-99, or when he was 27-28. It is arguable that he would have been a top pairing defenceman if he didn't have the likes of Kasparitis and Bourque ahead of him. I'll throw this one out.


You'll throw it out because you're wrong but lack the testicular fortitude to admit it. Foote was already added to Team Canada's roster in 1996. He was 25.


Last season was by far his best. After Giguere he was easily the catalyst to the Ducks making it deep into the playoffs. You are obviously just looking up +/- stats, so typical. Me 3, You 0.


+/- is useless. Carney's ice time per game was less last year than it was with the Coyotes. Carney came of age in Chicago, basically as soon as he got playing time and stayed healthy.


Okay, we'll take one of YOUR examples, Rob Blake. His best +/- numbers are 31-32 (since you only seem to respond to that sort of thing).


+/- is useless. You are the one who claims I look at it. I don't. It is useless. Blake's best year is when he was a minus. He became an elite defenseman in 1993.


Ha! Perhaps you should learn to look beyond a stats sheet, you pseudo homer reject.

Oh, and since it looks like all you're really good at is reading a stats sheet, here's a stat for you:

Me 4, You -1. Looks like you lose.

In Carney's, Foote's, Morris', Blake's and Chelios' case, their most significant improvement all occured prior to their 27th birthday. You are the one who relied on the uselessness of +/-. Sorry to use mutlisyllabic words.

Based on his comments, it would seem that is all that his opinion is based upon. I cite the Carney comment as example (his Chicago years vs. last season).

Did I ever use +/- to justify Carney's worth in Chicago? No.

You assumed crap that wasn't true.

If Carney hadn't come of age in Chicago, why would Phoenix have dealt Kilger (who at that time was very valuable, a 21 yr old power forward who was the 4th pick overall).

Carney's a decent player, and I certainly miss him in Buffalo. But he has not substantially improved since 1997.

I would do this deal very quick. If somehow Calgary were able to rid themselves of Turek (unlikely though) I would be pumped if the Flames could trade Gauthier for Noronen or Biron, Gauthier is overrated IMO, there's a reason he's playing on the third pairing this year that is averaging 7 minutes less a game than the top two pairings. I would really like to see one of those two Buffalo goalies in the Flaming C (since getting Miller is impossible, ;) )

...Gauthier is overrated IMO, there's a reason he's playing on the third pairing this year that is averaging 7 minutes less a game than the top two pairings...
That wasn't last season, and it sure isn't this season so far either. He logged 16:39 last night, including being on the ice last minute of the game with the Flames down by a goal. Whatever you want to call the "3rd pairing" - he's with Warraner, while Ference seemed to be paired with Lydman. I'd consider them the 2nd pairing, although the stats don't tell alot when Ference gets the same amount of ice time as Regehr.

Lafontaine ,I am sick of quoting your whiny posts where you try to wiggle out of your own statements like some carney contortionist. So instead I will respond issue by issue.


Try reading next time, first. And just because you are sick of quoting me, doesn't mean you should deliberately misquote me and create strawmen.

Giguere: If coaching was such a factor, why did Giguere turn his game around the moment he was traded? Long before Allaire even had a chance to even begin to help him. Giguere's play was inconsistent and his conditioning was terrible, so Button decided to expose the bubble goaltender at the expansion draft instead of his starter and backup. It was probably the only thing that could be done to get Giguere's head knocked readjusted...but as they always say, hindsight is 20/20.


Coaching was such a factor? Where did I say this? Do you enjoy creating strawmen to hump? Hindsight may be 20/20, but anyone who chooses a has been and never will be over someone with potential - someone who outplayed his competition - is an idiot. And a reason why Giguere had that potential was in part due to his age.

Carney: So let me get this straight. Carney almost carrying the Ducks on his shoulders into the semi-finals of the playoffs last season doesn't compare to his play with the Blackhawks where they scraped the bottom of their division (96-97)? Yeah, okay, whatever you say. :rolleyeS:


Carney was carrying the Ducks? How about Giguere?

Carney was also on the Ducks the previous year, where the Ducks scraped the bottom of their division.

I guess Iginla sucked two years ago too - because despite the Hart Trophy, the Flames scraped the bottom of their division with fewer points than the Hawks did back in 1997.

First point: playing on a bad team does not mean you are a bad player or even having a bad year.

Second point: Stop putting words into my mouth. I never gave any indication that Carney's "last season doesn't compare to his play with the Blackhawks." If you wish to argue with yourself, go back into the padded room and scream in a mirror. My point is that Carney's game has not seen any significant improvement from 1995-6. And it hasn't.

Chelios: He may not have been a defensive liability after 24, but he didn't really have a chance to be either. I argue that he didn't solidify his game until he was 27/28 and didn't have Suter or Carney to back him up.


This is pretty rich. Carney was useless with the Hawks, but now he's covering up for Chelios?

Morris: I don't think he has reached his full potential. He is still occassionally a defensive liability. But hey, you brought him up, not me.


No, Morris has a couple years of development left. He's young. His development, for the most part, will be over when he's 27. He certainly has developed into an excellent defenseman, at 25.

Foote: So you're saying that because Foote made Team Canada that he was a the peak of his career potential? You going to say the same about Brewer in 2002? Right. :rolleyes: Don't you dare say that I put words in your mouth here, because this is the example you cited. I argue he didn't become an elite top pairing defenceman until he was given the chance, or more accurately, when guys like Bourque and Kaspar retired or were not resigned. Funny, when I try to be fair about this you give me a hard time...how truly sad.


You are putting words in my mouth, specifically the part where you said I said he was at the peak of career potential, fool. And thanks for admiting you are not trying to be fair.

What I continue to argue is that the vast amount of a players development is OVER at 27. Did any of these defensemen get better after 27? NO. Foote helped lead Colorado to a Stanley Cup in 1996. Who played in front of him? Ozolinsh. He was a top defenseman in 1996. You think Lefebvre, Wolanin or Leschyschn were better?

In 1998-9, Foote was leading Avs in ice time per game. I wonder why...

Oh, and I almost forgot...

Stevens: By your admittance he doesn't fit my criteria. So try again. But to try to be fair, lets look at this example properly. In his first five seasons Stevens missed 15 games due to injury, but when he was around Gauthier's age he missed 24 games with the Capitals (89-90) and 16 games in one season with the Devils (91-92) in only a couple years. So to say that Stevens wasn't prone to injury early in his career and around Gauthier's current age is just stupid.

Stevens fits your criteria of a physical defenseman who can stay healthy. You should learn when I am mocking you. Players are also more prone to injury as they get older. The fewest games that Stevens played in were 56 and 68, aside from the strike year. Gauthier has played in 55, 39, 62, 66 and 72. 4 of 5 years are worse than Stevens 2nd worst year in terms of games played. Gauthier has never played more games than Stevens has in his season with his 18th fewest games. But stop jerking off. Do you seriously think that everyone that plays as physical as Gauthier misses as many games as he does? Do you seriously think this will get better as Gauthier becomes older?

If you think Gauthier will improve dramatically, KEEP HIM.