debate on bergeron

i just wanted to know how everyone feels about bergeron and his making the team at 18 years old. i am very happy for the kid, but of course, i'm skeptical about what he'll be able to achieve for us this year. so, i had several questions, and am hoping that this can turn into a good discussion. here we go-

first, i wanted to discuss his readiness. obviously, he is physically immature for the NHL. this may be his biggest hurdle, as he seems to have a tremendous head on his shoulders. so i ask- what's best for him? playing 40 NHL games, playing 60 NHL games, playing 80 NHL games.

next i ask, is it better for him to stay in the NHL all season, go back to juniors after the 10 game tryout (which sounds unlikely at this point), or stay in boston all year but leave the team for the world junior championships?

now for his development as a player- is it best to put him on the 4th line like they did with thornton, and allow him to develop with kid gloves? or do we give him high quality linemates and minutes?

my answers: i think 60 games would be a good test for patrice. rest him every 4th game or so, unless he's really playing great. also, i think it would be smart to keep him out of the lineup against the goon-filled lineups of the league.

i don't think sending him to the WJC's is a good idea- the yo-yo syndrome is not what this kid needs. however, i'm still open to sending him back to juniors after the 10 game threshold- it all depends on how he's progressing, and if he doesn't seem totally overwhelmed.

finally, i think i'd like to see bergeron get quality minutes when he does play. playing him on the 4th line isn't terrible, but i'm not sure i agree with thornton about how he was developed. he credited burns for handling him carefully, but i think that's just joe being joe. if bergeron does play on the 4th line, he should MOST DEFINITELY be playing on the 2nd PP unit, b/c he's got the magic hands.

well, that's my take on it- let the debate begin!!

so many questions that need answers...let the debate begin

Since I haven't seen him play I won't comment how much or where he should play...... but I think the kids that get sent back to play world juniors really benift for them it gives them incredable expereince at a young age at a very intense playoff level .......and they come back full of confidence as playing against men gives them the upper hand when they play against kids there age even for a week....Rumpy

PS also I can't remember a bruin since cam mann playing at the wj tourny for canada.....I'd love to see it

On your first point about his "physical immaturity", what led you to this conclusion? Sure he could gain some weight. But then, again, P.J. Axelsson is no bruiser and is effective.

Bergeron Cleary was signed to a contract because the staff which has watched every practice and game he's played in since training camp, and the scouts who recommended drafting him, felt he could handle the load at the NHL level.

As Okie said in his AM1510 interview Saturday, "If we sign him, we're going to play him"

Where he plays is strictly up to the rookie coach. I'd give him linemates commensurate with his talent and abilities, i.e., he is a playmaker, so should be paired with scorers.

We don't have a second line centre since Okie gave ours away. I say, give him a shot on that line, see how he performs, and leave him there if he succeeds.

Give him the 10 games and see what happens. If he can cut it, why complain?

Some players are ready at 18. Others don't become regulars until 25/26. There's no universal rule here, and if Bergeron was as good at training camp as has been reported, why not see if he can cut the mustard? The worst that happens is that he isn't quite up to par and goes back to junior with a clear idea of what he needs to work on to succeed at the NHL level.

The ten games are just what everyone needs to see if this kid is physically ready to handle NHL talent and endure the schedule. Rumpy, What Neelynugs meant was not how BIG he is but how prepared his body is. A 200 lb. 18 year old in most cases will have his head handed to him by a 24 year old vet. Maturity means as much as size.

The ten games are just what everyone needs to see if this kid is physically ready to handle NHL talent and endure the schedule. Rumpy, What Neelynugs meant was not how BIG he is but how prepared his body is. A 200 lb. 18 year old in most cases will have his head handed to him by a 24 year old vet. Maturity means as much as size.

i think you are referring to ratty's post, but thanks, you clarified what i was trying to get across. i'm intrigued to see how he fares vs. the vets in the league

I'm really not expecting all that much....maybe a goal, an assist in nine games and then back to juniors. Bergeron is basically playing with house money right now, so hopefully he can contribute....Makes me glad that we passed on Getzlaf and Parise knowing we have Stuart AND Bergeron to look forward to.

I think that whatever line he plays on needs to have some physical presence on it simply because he will be tested physically on a frequent basis. I also think that he needs to play the majority of his time on a line with players who can finish. I don't necessarily think that he must play a lot of minutes, especially early on, but I do think that he needs to have some success in order to build his confidence. The best way for him to be successful, IMO is to score points and this will obviously happen more easily playing with guys who are on the first 2 lines. I do have some faith that he wouldn't be here if he didn't deserve it. The 2 times I saw him play, I came out impressed. However, it seems to me that even though he broke camp with the B's, he'll probably head back to juniors relatively soon, especially if he's not playing major minutes on lines 1 or 2. With Zamuner and Lapointe coming back, there will be a log jam on the 3rd and 4th lines, and those 2 players are much better suited to do what is required of a 3rd or 4th liner.

I think that whatever line he plays on needs to have some physical presence on it simply because he will be tested physically on a frequent basis. I also think that he needs to play the majority of his time on a line with players who can finish. I don't necessarily think that he must play a lot of minutes, especially early on, but I do think that he needs to have some success in order to build his confidence. The best way for him to be successful, IMO is to score points and this will obviously happen more easily playing with guys who are on the first 2 lines. I do have some faith that he wouldn't be here if he didn't deserve it. The 2 times I saw him play, I came out impressed. However, it seems to me that even though he broke camp with the B's, he'll probably head back to juniors relatively soon, especially if he's not playing major minutes on lines 1 or 2. With Zamuner and Lapointe coming back, there will be a log jam on the 3rd and 4th lines, and those 2 players are much better suited to do what is required of a 3rd or 4th liner.


Good points...If he's not going to play MAJOR minutes here, send him back.....Look what happened to Tim Connolly....

Since I haven't seen him play I won't comment how much or where he should play...... but I think the kids that get sent back to play world juniors really benift for them it gives them incredable expereince at a young age at a very intense playoff level .......and they come back full of confidence as playing against men gives them the upper hand when they play against kids there age even for a week....Rumpy

PS also I can't remember a bruin since cam mann playing at the wj tourny for canada.....I'd love to see it


Has Bergeron made team Canada?

Given how little attention he had gotten to the prior draft, and of course the depth of big name centers in bergeron's age group. I would be surprised to see him make team Canada

I don't think the Bruins will make the post season this year. The team will need this year as a growing pains year. Lots of new faces! Fresh ones at that.


wow...not make the playoffs at all??? i don't see that happening. yeah, they have a couple new faces, but let's be serious...this team still has som top tier talent!!! every team has new faces. i think the goaltending has improved, or at the very least stayed the same, and the core of last year's team is still in place: thornton, murray, boynton, axelsson, rolston, etc...plus, samsonov is back and flying as good as ever, mcgillis is here from the start, and the team made a solid acquisition in getting travis green to center the third line. i'd say overall the team took several steps in the right direction, and that they'll definitely be in the playoffs.

One thing that I notice is conspicously absent from this thread is any talk about the needs of the BOSTON BRUINS!

Why is so much being said about what an 18 year old kid needs???

If I am not mistaken, the Boston Bruins are bigger than Patrice Bergeron Cleary!

His developemental needs are obviously important, BUT....they without question PALE in comparison to the Bruins needs.

I would throw this out there...I think that Joe Dirtbags point predictions are pretty realistic for an 80 game season for Bergeron.

And those numbers are a CLEAR DOWNGRADE from what we had last year in the 2nd line center slot.

Throw in the fact that defensively he is NOWHERE near Stumpel in terms of effectiveness!

In 2 years he may well be a better all aroun player than STumpel was last year, and is this year.

But now is now...and if Bergeron takes that 2nd line slot, he HAS to produce.

BOTTOM LINE is production.

And I fear that he will be played with something like Muzz or Samm and his deficiencies will be covered up and he will be a product of his linemates.

Once the postseason rolls around and you cant be hidden...he will be exposed as a rookie!

Give him 5 or so games then send him back where he can try to dominate.

Later

I think the B's need a 2nd line center who can actually create scoring opportunities. Rolston doesn't fit that bill, Green probably doesn't either. So with that being a need, Bergeron is the closest thing that they have at the ready. Now the real question is, does his abiltiy/potential to create offense for others outweigh his ineffeciencies in the defensive zone and lack of experience? And can the B's find a way to get production out of him or will he simply be overmatched and at risk to have his develpoment stunted. Only time will tell, I guess.

I haven't really seen him play, but if what people are saying about him is true, i.e. that he is ready in most ways except for needing to gain 20 lbs, I say play him on the 2nd line at first to see if he handle it. If not, or if he's taking too much of a beating, move him to 4th and put Sandy on his wing to ride shotgun. Sandy thinks he's a sniper anyhow -- maybe the 4th will actually generate some points :)

sfbruin..

I will wholheartedly agree with you IF...

That 4th line gets 12-15 minutes of ice per game.

Bergeron needs to PLAY and PLAY A LOT!

That is where the balancing act between his developement, and the needs of the team comes in.

We (the team) cant be overly concerned with his development, at the EXPENSE of team success.

Unless of course your idea of success is making the playoffs, getting your 2 or 3 home games then duting off the golf clubs.

Later

so jeff, i'm assuming that you aren't a supporter of the way burns handled thornton, correct?
i totally agree with this- if bergeron sticks around, there's no reason for him to get treated with kid gloves (most of the time). throw him into the fire, and if he ain't ready, send him back for seasoning.

i feel this way about jurcina as well, and hopefully he'll be sent back to providence shortly.

One thing that I notice is conspicously absent from this thread is any talk about the needs of the BOSTON BRUINS!

Why is so much being said about what an 18 year old kid needs???

If I am not mistaken, the Boston Bruins are bigger than Patrice Bergeron Cleary!

His developemental needs are obviously important, BUT....they without question PALE in comparison to the Bruins needs.

I would throw this out there...I think that Joe Dirtbags point predictions are pretty realistic for an 80 game season for Bergeron.

And those numbers are a CLEAR DOWNGRADE from what we had last year in the 2nd line center slot.

Throw in the fact that defensively he is NOWHERE near Stumpel in terms of effectiveness!

In 2 years he may well be a better all aroun player than STumpel was last year, and is this year.

But now is now...and if Bergeron takes that 2nd line slot, he HAS to produce.

BOTTOM LINE is production.

And I fear that he will be played with something like Muzz or Samm and his deficiencies will be covered up and he will be a product of his linemates.

Once the postseason rolls around and you cant be hidden...he will be exposed as a rookie!

Give him 5 or so games then send him back where he can try to dominate.

Later

whoa....

first off...there is little to suggest BC (bergeron-cleary) is slated at second line center spot. so far the newspapars have him practicing as a fourth liner (teal jersey). it could be that they are going to try and develop this kid in the same way they did big joe. why don't we hold off for five games and see how he is used before we make sweeping judgements about how he is unable to fill the role that he is given. after all, we don't even know the role yet.

;)

second....before we cry over stumpels loss....which i have mixed feelings about. lets see how they roll lines and what they do with green. green played pretty well with ziggy palffy during his stint with the nyi. perhaps putting him with samosnov would give us decent production on a second line.

It will be interesting to see how they use Bergeron.
At this point i'm about 50/50 on his chances to go back to juniors.
I was sure they were going to do it but now not so sure.
Do you think they would use him on the wing?
Since he is a righthanded shot and the B's don't have ton of depth on the RW...Alot more so if Knuble stays on the left side.

I wouldn't like to see him alot on the wing but maybe on a line with Rolston and let them switch on and off at center depending on who is playing well or situation on the ice.

Maybe a Axelsson/Rolston/Bergeron line???
Not sure how well Rolston would be or feel playing the RW position???

I still love the idea of 4 lines made up of pairs and sort the rest out to build 2 lines to score and 2 lines to better check...but not lack a possible goal from time to time.

Thornton/Murray
Green/Lapointe...(when back)
Rolston/Axe
Bergeron/Knuble

Then just mix in guy like Samsonov/Zamuner (when back)/Grosek/Huml/McCarthy/Stock/Donato/Samuelsson

I still like Rolston and Axe as a speedy checking type of line which can pressure and and score as well.
I think you could build Green and Lapointe into a bigger but also talented/veteran/chippy checking type of line.
Rolston and Green seem to be more shooters than pass/playmakers types...so to put alot of goal scorer types might not be the best situation for them.
I just think a guy like Knuble would be just the right type of player to help young Bergeron while playing hard night in night out and solid D...he would still give Bergeron a guy who can pot goals and work the around the net and boards.
The problem with going with 4 balanced lines...what or where do you play Stock and McCarthy?...do you dress both most games???

The best part about going with 4 line is everyone get in to play and in certain situations you can go to 3 lines and just shuffle a little but still the balance is there...

Putting a line of say Stock/Bergeron/McCarthy is really IMO kinda just dumb!
I am not a big fan of playing useless toughguys 1 shift a period...I think both Stock and McCARTHY can/could play well if on a line with 2 other solid players.

I also wonder about playing McCarthy on the RW with Joe and Samsonov...This gives other lines guys like Knuble and Murray.

My point I guess is Bergeron sounds like the Bruins have been sold on him right out of the gate...he hasn't slid off or seemed to have a bad game or practice...yes he could or maybe should be sent back but even after the pickup of Green the Bruins see a spot for him maybe he will be here for a while.
I though after they got Green it was a sign he wwas going to be sent back....but that didn't happen.
You kinda see a pattern...
Bergeron starts out well...but wait for the preseason games!
He plays well (not out of place) in games....he will slow as camp goes!
He is still signed by the B's even after they obtain T.Green...so what will happen?
The Kid has hushed all who ? him so far...I'll stand behind the fact unless he struggles in the 1st 4 or 5 games look for him to stick and play some nights at 4th line center...some sitting out...some nights at RW...some nights at center on a 2nd type of line as far as talent/players he plays with.

Don't rule this kid out...he has been really solid so far...the best parts is he isn't getting 2 and 3 goal nights but "is" getting the press that he is a player who know what and how to play.
I would be very worried if it was the fact he has scored a ton and would wonder how he would handle it when he cools off but it seem like the coach and players just trust the fact he knows what he should and shouldn't be doing.
The best part is with Rolston/Thornton/Green there is no reason to rush or put added pressure on him...this new depth will give Sully the option to use Bergeron in the rigth or best situations.
I think the B's can keep this kid and make it work.

I think we agree...lets' see what happens after 5 or 6 games!

neelynugs,

I am a very firm supporter of how Burns handled Thornton.

IMHO, Thornton and Bergeron are in no way similar cases.

Thornton had clearly DOMINATED at SSM. He had absolutely nothing that he could have benefited from by taking another year in juniors. All he would have learned was bad habits and a poor work ethic.

By all accounts, Bergeron had a very good year last year. But he didnt dominate. And he isnt as physically ready/mature as Thornton was.

AND, I firmly believe that there was a MUCH stronger veteran presence on the Thornton rookie year Bruins, than their is on this team!

The 2 circumstances are very DISsimilar in my eyes!

I believe that Bergeron CAN in fact benefit from another year of junior.

IF, and I think its a BIG if...IF Bergeron PROVES without a shadow of a doubt that he is ready for an 80 game NHL schedule...keep him up.

If thats unquestionably the Bruins best option at a center ice spot for THIS YEARS team, then he should stay.

Otherwise both Bergeron AND the Boston Bruins will benefit from anothr year in juniors.

Jurcina, on the other hand, is an interesting situation. There is nobody in Providence who can play better in the big show than Jurcina. I thknk that was shown very aptly this preseason. Morrisonn showed that he isnt at all ready for NHL duty. Brennan is an AHL guy who can get the spot NHL call up.

It all depends in Berard and his situation. If they dont intend to sign Berard, then Jurcina CAN benefit from splitting games with Moran, as well as spelling the other 5 d-men from time to time.

If Berard is signed...then I without hesitation send Jurcina back to Providence, and he becomes my first call up should injury or ineffective play occur.

Later