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Bruinaholic 10-09-2005, 11:06 AM With all the rumors and specualtion of Manny going to the Mets and the ill-fated Mets-Sox-D-Rays trade that fell apart last August i think i may have solved the puzzle.
Red Sox-Mets-Brewers
Sox get S.Trachsel(owed 4.5 1yr) K.Matsui(8$ 1 yr) L.Milledge(21yr old OF prospect) and Carlos Lee (8.5$ 1 yr,signs 5 year 57.5$ext) B.Looper(5$ 1 yr)
Mets get M.Ramirez (owed 20$per 3yrs) K.Foulke (1 year 7.25$) L.Overbay(arby eli)
Brewers get B.Arroyo(arby eligible) A.Heilman (arby) V.Diaz (24yr old RF to replace Lee) K.Youlilis (cheap 27yo 3Bmen,takes over for Branyan?)
- i read the Brewers roster and see they have Bill Hall whos a solid young 3Bmen and if they dont want Youkilis im sure another younger player can be swapped.
Breakdown
Red Sox-if ownership wants Manny gone then this is the deal, they do take on a few expensive vets but after 2006 they free up 3 spots and 17.5$
Lee replaces Manny,not quite the hitter but not a bad alternative for 30-35hrs 115rbi for 9$per year less),Milledge is a highly touted OF prospect that will have time to develope in AAA,Looper would be a set up guy for a year
Mets-they get their Mannny and a potentailly awesome Closer/set up guy in Foulke and a big addition for 1B in Overbay
They give up a few young players in Milledge,Heilman and Diaz but free up some dead weight in Trachsel,Matsui and Looper
Brewers- Not easy losing Lee but they couldnt afford him long term anyways, and they have Prince Fielder for 1B so Overbay is expendable.
They aquire 2 flexible 27 yo pitchers in Arroyo and Heilman to bolster the pitching staff behind Sheets and Davis and get a nice cheap replacement for RF in Diaz who has alot of upside IMO, Youkilis could take 3B or battle it out w/ Hall or be a good reserve getting 50-75 starts between 1B and 3B (Fielder may not play every game)
If Youkilis doesnt fit in the deal, maybe Sox keep him and send Milledge to Brewers for Heilman??
devildan 10-09-2005, 12:46 PM Only problem with that is I think the Brewers are trying to win now. That and the mets would probably have to eat the rest of Kaz's salary. But other than that it actually makes some sense.
Bruinaholic 10-09-2005, 12:54 PM Only problem with that is I think the Brewers are trying to win now. That and the mets would probably have to eat the rest of Kaz's salary. But other than that it actually makes some sense.
With the Mets taking on all 20$per for the next 3 years of Mannys and Foulkes 7.25$ in 06 (07 hes due 7.25$ but its based on him having x number of appearences over 04-05-06 which he may or may not attain after missing alot of 05) then the Sox would be responsble for the last year of Matsuis which is fair IMO
Fire Sather 10-09-2005, 05:56 PM I'd run naked down the street for that one as a Mets fan...
if Heilman wasnt involed.
I think people will be very surprised this offseason. I think the Blue Jays would make a pitch for Manny if the Sox ate some of his salary we need that big slugger and have some good prospects and also have to get rid of one of either Eric Hinske or Corey Koskie
I think people will be very surprised this offseason. I think the Blue Jays would make a pitch for Manny if the Sox ain't some of his salary we need that big slugger and have some good prospects and also have to get rid of one of either Eric Hinske or Corey Koskie
Why would the Sox pay to let Manny play for the Blue Jays in exchange for anything less than Roy Halladay and Vernon Wells?
As for the original trade, I don't like it. Don't like giving up Manny, Foulke, Arroyo, and Youkilis for Trachsel, Lee, a closer worse than Foulke, a shortstop almost as bad as Renteri, and a good OF prospect
I think people will be very surprised this offseason. I think the Blue Jays would make a pitch for Manny if the Sox ain't some of his salary we need that big slugger and have some good prospects and also have to get rid of one of either Eric Hinske or Corey Koskie
Why would the Sox trade him within the division?
Bruinaholic 10-09-2005, 06:33 PM Why would the Sox pay to let Manny play for the Blue Jays in exchange for anything less than Roy Halladay and Vernon Wells?
As for the original trade, I don't like it. Don't like giving up Manny, Foulke, Arroyo, and Youkilis for Trachsel, Lee, a closer worse than Foulke, a shortstop almost as bad as Renteri, and a good OF prospect
Looper would be a really good set up man and this would hopefully lead to BJ Ryan coming to Boston.
Matsui would be ok for 1 year(at 2nd) as would Trachsel, the key is those 3 players would be gone freeing up 17.5$ for the 2006-07 offseason
Id rather pay Looper 5$ for 1 year then Foulke 7.25$ for 1,maybe even 2 if he hits a certain amount of games played for the option to be triggered.
Trachsel IMO would be more reliable in a post season game then Arroyo,hes coming off an injury and would put his best effort forward pitching for his last contract of his career.
Lee is a 35hr 110rbi OF that i would think is better in the field then Manny at about 7-9$ per year less assuming he can be signed for 5 years at 11.5$ per(hed mash at fenway)
Bruinaholic 10-09-2005, 06:38 PM Why would the Sox trade him within the division?
just depends on how desperate the ownership is to get rid of him, personally i hope he stays but the Trio may have other plans :dunno:
Unholy Diver 10-09-2005, 07:01 PM thats the kind of trade that would turn the Sox into an 85 win team
Matsui is a big mistake the mets would love to dump
Trachsel is so-so and a lot older than Bronson
Lee is a definite downgrade from Manny
and what was the other Looper for Foulke? thats a downgrade too assuming Foulke is close to back to normal next year
stanley 10-09-2005, 07:58 PM I'm sure there are plans to see what they can do with Manny, but that trade proposal hurt my head to comprehend.
Remember to consider that Manny's a 10/5 guy, so he can veto any trade.
Why would the Sox pay to let Manny play for the Blue Jays in exchange for anything less than Roy Halladay and Vernon Wells?
As for the original trade, I don't like it. Don't like giving up Manny, Foulke, Arroyo, and Youkilis for Trachsel, Lee, a closer worse than Foulke, a shortstop almost as bad as Renteri, and a good OF prospect
You gotta be kidding me all Manny has is his power numbers. He is probably the worst starting outfielder in AL though he does have alot of assists but it's an adventure everytime is out their. The return on Manny will be medicore you can count on it. I mean the Yanks were considering pulling the trigger on that Sheffield/Cameron swap so I doubt Manny get's that much more of a return. Maybe swap him for Alfonso Soriano who isn't wanted in Texas.
Anthony* 10-09-2005, 08:27 PM almost anyone would be a downgrade compared to manny
but lee can still rake
Bruinaholic 10-09-2005, 08:30 PM thats the kind of trade that would turn the Sox into an 85 win team
Trachsel is so-so and a lot older than Bronson
Lee is a definite downgrade from Manny
and what was the other Looper for Foulke? thats a downgrade too assuming Foulke is close to back to normal next year
No kidding Lee is a downgrade from Manny, who could the Sox possibly get that wouldnt be a downgrade??
This really comes down if ownership really wants to deal Manny.
Looper has been a lights out set up guy in the past, he throws mid 90's and was pretty good this past season w/ a shoulder problem...7 blown saves in 35opps isnt the best but he should have a clean bill of health next spring after having a minor surgery last weeek ans will be better, it be nice to assume Foulke comes back to normal but theres obviously no guarentee.
Trachsel is so-so but hed be a guy id have more faith in him in a big spot then Clement or Arroyo, hes on the last year of a deal at 4.5, is 34 years old and is essentailly pitching for his last MLB contract....i think hed be a good pickup
I could live w/ Matsui for 1 year at 2nd since this deal is about freeing up money in the long term....17.5$ after next season where Manny would be owed 20$ per through 2008
Dont get me wrong i want Manny back but if Theo and the Trio insist he goes then this is a feasable deal...its definitly better then the near 3 way deal that fell apart in August w/ Tampa that had
Sox getting -Cameron-Huff-someone
Mets getting Manny,Baez
Tampa getting Lester and Milledge
Dr Love 10-09-2005, 08:35 PM Brewers- Not easy losing Lee but they couldnt afford him long term anyways, and they have Prince Fielder for 1B so Overbay is expendable.
Says who? You?
http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/09/26/daily38.html?jst=t3_ln_hl
They aquire 2 flexible 27 yo pitchers in Arroyo and Heilman to bolster the pitching staff behind Sheets and Davis and get a nice cheap replacement for RF in Diaz who has alot of upside IMO, Youkilis could take 3B or battle it out w/ Hall or be a good reserve getting 50-75 starts between 1B and 3B (Fielder may not play every game)
The last thing the Brewers need is pitching. They were 5th in the NL in ERA, their rotation is young, and they have the best pitching coach that isn't Leo Mazzone. And Bill Hall is a second baseman.
Bruinaholic 10-09-2005, 10:38 PM Says who? You?
http://milwaukee.bizjournals.com/milwaukee/stories/2005/09/26/daily38.html?jst=t3_ln_hl
The last thing the Brewers need is pitching. They were 5th in the NL in ERA, their rotation is young, and they have the best pitching coach that isn't Leo Mazzone. And Bill Hall is a second baseman.
Im not a Milwaukee Brewers fan but i saw Branyan listed at 3rd(the spot Youkilis could take) and Bill Hall was listed as SS/3B w/ Ricki Weeks being the 2bmen.....
Any team could use pitching, if hypothetically the Brewers were to add these 2 pitchers that would enable the Crew to drop Helling or Glover and plug Arroyo into the rotation and put Heilman in the pen w/ Capellan-Turnbow-De La Rosa-and whoever else they have
As to Carlos Lee, you can honestly think that if ANY big market team where knocking on his door after this season he would pick Milwaukee to play the rest of his career??
Ironchef Chris Wok* 10-10-2005, 06:04 AM Matsui AND Renteria?
Thanks, but no thanks.
Dr Love 10-10-2005, 08:40 AM Im not a Milwaukee Brewers fan but i saw Branyan listed at 3rd(the spot Youkilis could take) and Bill Hall was listed as SS/3B w/ Ricki Weeks being the 2bmen..... D-oh. You're right. Hall started out at 2B, that's why I thought that. But when they called Weekes up, he moved to the revolving door at 3B.
Any team could use pitching, if hypothetically the Brewers were to add these 2 pitchers that would enable the Crew to drop Helling or Glover and plug Arroyo into the rotation and put Heilman in the pen w/ Capellan-Turnbow-De La Rosa-and whoever else they have Sure, but they have greater needs than two starters. They might take one starter and another position player for example.
As to Carlos Lee, you can honestly think that if ANY big market team where knocking on his door after this season he would pick Milwaukee to play the rest of his career?? Who is to say that Lee doesn't get a contract he's happy with in Milwaukee? They gave Ben Sheets over $9M for four years this season. Who is to say they don't hold on to him, offer him arbitration, and take the compensation when someone signs him? You're speculating all of this because they're the Milwaukee Brewers, nevermind that they've been one of the best run organizations for the past two years under new ownership.
Vic Rattlehead* 10-10-2005, 09:09 AM With the Brewers finishing at .500 this season, I can see them adding more key players to their team rather than trading them away.
stanley 10-10-2005, 09:56 AM You gotta be kidding me all Manny has is his power numbers. He is probably the worst starting outfielder in AL though he does have alot of assists but it's an adventure everytime is out their. The return on Manny will be medicore you can count on it. I mean the Yanks were considering pulling the trigger on that Sheffield/Cameron swap so I doubt Manny get's that much more of a return. Maybe swap him for Alfonso Soriano who isn't wanted in Texas.
Alex, the only reason the return for Manny won't be great in a player-for-player sense has everything in the world to do with his contract and the amount of money he's owed. Everything in the world. In other words, the Red Sox would be accepting the financial flexibility they'd receive for trading Manny as a commodity, and it's a very real commodity. He's one of the best hitters in all of baseball. Top 5, without a question.
If Ricciardi has thought about trying to acquire Ramirez, I'm sure it's because he has increased revenue sources and a very deep farm system, and hopes to make a major push for the playoffs and beyond this upcoming year. A couple of the best in that system would have to go the other way. Manny produced a 990 OPS this year. That would be one heck of a lineup and staff, and really make them favorites in the East.
As for Soriano, there are profound reasons why many people aren't interested in him. He has some great pop, but he's overvalued and subsequently overpaid because he doesn't get on base in ways other than the hit. He was paid $7.5M this year for a .309 OBP!
(Granted, he has an 820 OPS, but one can get that for much less than $7.5M.)
Nifty=HHOF 10-11-2005, 09:26 PM You gotta be kidding me all Manny has is his power numbers. He is probably the worst starting outfielder in AL though he does have alot of assists but it's an adventure everytime is out their. The return on Manny will be medicore you can count on it. I mean the Yanks were considering pulling the trigger on that Sheffield/Cameron swap so I doubt Manny get's that much more of a return. Maybe swap him for Alfonso Soriano who isn't wanted in Texas.
A career .314 batting average suggests he may have more than just power numbers. This was the first year since 1998 he hit under .300. He has never batted under .290 in a full season.
As for his defense, it is an adventure everytime, but he is a adequate defensive player who sometimes (albeit rarely) makes a suprisingly good play. The major downside to Manny is the infamous, "Manny being Manny" Syndrome.
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