Proposal: Colorado - Phoenix [Archive]

hbk

10-09-2003, 03:29 AM

nice to see all Coyote fans are being stereotyped. really nice. these types of inflamatory comments only tend to repeat such behavior.

Look we all heard the reported Jackman and three first round picks and there isn't a Coyote fan alive who honestly beleives that was the true asking price and that "offer" was nothing more than a sign of Cliff Fletcher's frustration with trade negotiations with Larry Pleau and a perceived notion that he wasn't bargaining in good faith (ie wouldn't up the anty).

Most Phoenix fans are very realistic in their trade demands. However, we don't expect Barnett to deal Burke away for something we don't want/need. Phoenix is under zero obligation to deal Burke to anyone and their are other confounding factors such as the new arena and subsequent fan attendance (their lease calls for Phoenix to receive the entire revenue stream for the first 50 events - which means more people = more money; therefore removing your best chance to even be in the playoff hunt by the opening is not a smart business decision). This is not just a hockey trade I think that is where a number of posters get confused.

And for the record if the Avalanche offered up Tanguay, he would be a Coyote. I don't think that is a realistic scenario either as the Avs are not going to do anything that sacrifices away from the chemistry of their number one (two?) line. Phoenix's chief need is on defense and Skoula or Keith Ballard are assets that look to be more realistic assets that Phoenix would be interested in.

Ironchef Chris Wok*

10-09-2003, 03:32 AM

I was watching Sportsnet yesterday and Kypreus said he heard lacroix is watching the Montreal situation with Theodore . The situation around his family or if he starts off slowly , expect a trade ...

Now THIS is called HISTORY REPEATING ITSELF.

Devils Advocate

10-09-2003, 10:25 AM

Once again I'm in total agreement, of course, dont say that to PHO fans :rolleyes: He is worth Gretzky and a 1st rounder :D

Yes, & ALL Avalanche fans believe Burke is worth a bag to hold pucks in. Just to clarify, that's just the bag, not the pucks inside the bag. We'd have to give up Mike Johnson in order to get the pucks.

:rolleyes: :rolly: :rolleyes:

Gwyddbwyll

10-09-2003, 10:38 AM

I think Tanguay's and Skoula's trade value are quite under-rated these days. Young and cheap players that have proven themselves at NHL level have never been so valuable. They may be expendable but most likely in an upgrade for another commodity that will hold its value like a Khabibulin.

Why would Avs, or anyone be keen on Johnson? He would need a spot on the top six as he's not a checking grinder. He does a very good job on the Coyotes, to the extent he was consistantly their best forward last year but I dont know he'd duplicate that on another team.

I think Burke is a Coyote for a while yet but if the Avs feel they lack a goalie they may give up a Ballard or JJ (I hope), Boychuk, Liles etc as Ive said for a while now.

Buddhaful - you missed out one.. all philly fans are obsessed with Sean Burke threads lol.

Enoch

10-09-2003, 10:41 AM

Yes, & ALL Avalanche fans believe Burke is worth a bag to hold pucks in. Just to clarify, that's just the bag, not the pucks inside the bag. We'd have to give up Mike Johnson in order to get the pucks.

:rolleyes: :rolly: :rolleyes:

Touche.....I actually think he is valuable, but at the deadline I only expect him to fetch a 2nd round pick if a team is buying.

Dr Love

10-09-2003, 10:43 AM

Once again I'm in total agreement, of course, dont say that to PHO fans :rolleyes: He is worth Gretzky and a 1st rounder :D

:teach: But they already have Gretzky. To their credit, Coyote fans make a fair point in that Burke is worth more to the team than what he would get in return.

Enoch

10-09-2003, 10:45 AM

nice to see all Coyote fans are being stereotyped. really nice. these types of inflamatory comments only tend to repeat such behavior.

Maybe you should read some of your fellow fan's posts. Actually read the majority of hte proposals involving PHO on here, and you will see that they want quite a bit for Burke. ;/ . Anyways, it is just some harmless heckling. I hope you caught the sarcasm from that post.....

nucks2001

10-09-2003, 11:05 AM

More than fair imo. I'd take Tanguay miles ahead of Johnson and Burke at this point is only worth a 2nd rounder at most. Imo the difference between Tanguay and Johnson is equal to the 2nd or 3rd that Burke would command.

10-09-2003, 01:52 PM

Maybe you should read some of your fellow fan's posts. Actually read the majority of hte proposals involving PHO on here, and you will see that they want quite a bit for Burke. ;/ . Anyways, it is just some harmless heckling. I hope you caught the sarcasm from that post.....

Really?
Burke is our lone leader, the only guy on the roster we cannot criticize, because for the most part he does his job every night and gives the team a chance to win.

His stats are very impressive, especially considering he plays on the coyotes. The only question is durability, but thats his first injury in a long time so were not too upset atm.

Hes worth a decent prospect + a 1st, but Id think the yotes are looking more towards young forwards/defense than draft picks.

Mike Johnson for Tanguay has is pros and cons
Johnsons season could be a fluke, but from the looks of it hes set on the Nagy - Lankgow - Johnson like which by far has been the best for the coyotes.

Tanguay has also played with some highly skilled teamates, can he put up those numbers with say, Hrdina as his center?

Burke is cheap, and brings more to the table than fair market value would return(just like Doan). If somebody wants him, they will have to pay up. From the looks of it hes the most solid goalie available this season, and several teams will be interested in his services.

The Cechmanek trade has clearly tainted everyones vision, damn you Bobby Clarke.

10-09-2003, 02:24 PM

Do you have any idea how insane you sound? Seriously, bud.

Look in the mirror
Bruins already offered a 1st

nooch

10-09-2003, 03:20 PM

Do you have any idea how insane you sound? Seriously, bud.

A decent prospect and a 1st rounder for ONE SEASON? Are you out of your mind?

This guy is clearly a phony. He's just saying this to bait us into arguing with him. Nobody would actually believe this crap. We're being had. Nobody is this big a homer.

--
KL

If anyone is trying to pick a fight, its you. Think about it a first rounder and a decent prospect is too much to ask. If Burke plays like he does in Phoenix your team will go far in to the playoffs (I already know he not playoff proven) Your offense is scary, and your d is solid. Goaltending is the only problem area. In return for Phoenix would more than likely be a very low first rounder and a decent propect is not a lot to ask for to give your team a very good shot at the cup.
I for one would like him to stay in phoenix though. He's the most stable thing we have here.

10-09-2003, 04:57 PM

Cite a source. I want a direct quote from Barnett. Until then, you are making stuff up.

--
KL

Cite a source that says Burke is worth a 3rd round pick :rolleyes:
Cite a direct quote from Barnett that says the price is 3 1sts and your bluechip
Cite a source where Barnett or Francis says Burkes contributions to the team are minimal

Its been said many times, I dont have the "original" story. But why wouldnt they offer up a 1st? ill ask that.

Hackett was horrid
Shields was not the man
Management wanted to make playoffs
Not that high of a pick

It has been said that Fletcher turned down a 1st, and wanted a guy like Hilbert thrown in.

Not my ****ing fault you didnt even read my original post, which was the value to the coyotes AKA what its going to take.

kenabnrmal

10-09-2003, 05:14 PM

One, ONE Coyotes fan posts unrealistic estimates of Burke's value, and yet ALL Coyotes fans get painted with the same brush. Enoch, if stereotyping an entire group of fans based upon one loud poster makes you feel better about yourself and your team's fellow fans, then have fun with it. But, personally I think you're a better poster than that.

As for the original deal, I'd take it from a Coyotes perspective...but not yet. I'd wait till the team drifts out of the playoff race, IF they do so. If they have a shot at the playoffs, I likely look to hold onto Burke. If they are near the bottom of the conference, the I ask for the Avs to include an unconditional pick with the deal, and take it giggling either way.

I'd give up Johnson for Tanguay in a nanosecond.

Still, the fact of the matter IS that Burke is presently worth more to the Coyotes than team are willing to give for him. So it would make complete and total sense that the Yotes fans ask for more from fans of other teams in trade proposals. Why thats hard to understand is beyond me.

PhoPhan

10-09-2003, 05:24 PM

ATG

10-09-2003, 05:43 PM

To Colorado: G Sean Burke, F Mike Johnson, conditional pick if Burke retires at end of season
To Phoenix: F Alex Tanguay, conditional pick if Burke re-signs at end of season

Flame away.

I think that the avs give up to much burke's old and doesn't have much left and johnson is half the player tanguay is

Enoch

10-09-2003, 06:18 PM

Enoch

10-09-2003, 06:26 PM

One, ONE Coyotes fan posts unrealistic estimates of Burke's value, and yet ALL Coyotes fans get painted with the same brush. Enoch, if stereotyping an entire group of fans based upon one loud poster makes you feel better about yourself and your team's fellow fans, then have fun with it. But, personally I think you're a better poster than that.

As I said, its just some harmless heckling. Where Burke is concerned, I think Phoenix fans are a little homeristic, which is understandable considering he is the best player on your team. Realisticly, if Burke is traded at the deadline, I can't see him going for much more than a 2nd rounder. My reasons: hes 36, he is a UFA, he has injury problems, he hasn't proved anything in the playoffs. This decreases a players value, and PL definitely knows this. I'm not saying that he will be traded for this, but I am saying that this is all he is likely to be traded for unless a bidding war goes on. Anyways, I know that their are certain players that your team would hate to lose unless a gold mine was coming in return, I feel the same way for my favorite teams. More power to you ;).

Enoch

10-09-2003, 07:21 PM

If the Avs trade a 3rd or lower for Burke, I will accept it, try to make the best of the situation, and assume that PL knows something I dont.

If the Avs were to give up more than a 3rd, for the first time ever, you would see me question PL. I did not and do not question the Vrbata/Battaglia deal, he took a strength and addressed a weakness. I do not question the Parrish/Fitzgerald deal, PL had to stand his ground, else he would have been taken to the cleaners by every agent after that. But giving up anything more than a 3rd rounder for Burke is just plain INSANE.

--
KL

I think a 2nd is reasonable, especially if Burke has a solid regular season.

RoyIsALegend*

10-09-2003, 08:33 PM

I would have agreed with KL's assessment of Sean Burke's worth in the early summer. However, realizing that there not as many quality options as Burke(Hurme, Irbe, Johnson, um... who else that sucks?).

I would give up a 2nd round pick and a middle-tier prospect for Burke, personally. If the Coyotes want a player like Keith Ballard, Tomas Slovak or Jonas Johansson as the prospect, forget it.

Nothing more, and certainly nothing off the current roster unless we're getting an additional piece back, like a Mike Johnson. The thing about Johnson is that he has clicked with literally every line he's been on, and has helped his line-mates. There's an article in the current issue of The Hockey News even talking about how Phoenix will move Johnson around to continue putting chemistry together.

At 29 years old, coming off a 63 point season, I don't think it'd be out of the question for Johnson to get 25 goals and 40 assists playing with Peter Forsberg and Milan Hejduk, if my proposal came to fruition.

Alex Tanguay is a fine young player, and despite the overrated nonsense of him simply feeding off his linemates, the fact remains that there are very few 23 year old players that have achieved the success Tanguay has, both statistically speaking and hardware wise.

The only concern in my Tanguay for Burke and Johnson proposal is that the Avs are taking on around $5.3 M in the deal(Burke $4.5 M and Johnson $2.3 M with Tanguay at $1.5 M), but our owner Stan Kroenke has never shown hesitance in allowing Pierre Lacroix to improve our club.

Even if the Avalanche choose not to pursue Burke, I have faith in the fact that Kroenke allows Lacroix ample budget room to improve our team year-in and year-out at the deadline.

Ironchef Chris Wok*

10-09-2003, 09:07 PM

The Avs could get Kolzig for Tanguay and a 2nd.

--
KL

Washington needs a defenseman.

Zodiac

10-09-2003, 11:09 PM

Washington needs a defenseman.

Skoula and a pick for Kolzig.

Ensane

10-10-2003, 12:25 AM

Skoula and a pick for Kolzig.
Only through the course of a wet dream.

Ironchef Chris Wok*

10-10-2003, 07:15 AM

Skoula and a pick for Kolzig.

Hmm...

Skoula, Skrastins and a 4th for Kolzig and a WSH D-man (Yonkman perhaps?)

Devils Advocate

10-10-2003, 09:07 AM

Devils Advocate

10-10-2003, 09:12 AM

As I said, its just some harmless heckling. Realisticly, if Burke is traded at the deadline, I can't see him going for much more than a 2nd rounder. My reasons: hes 36, he is a UFA, he has injury problems, he hasn't proved anything in the playoffs.

I think most of us understood your original sarcasm as you did with my reply.

One thing, Burke is not an UFA, he is signed through the 2004-2005 season.

peace~!

Irish Blues

10-10-2003, 09:39 AM

Geez, now this may lead to an intelligent thread. :handclap:

No, it's *YET ANOTHER* stupid trade idea involving Sean Burke to Colorado, which automatically means there's no intelligence attached to it.

Enoch

10-10-2003, 09:53 AM

I think most of us understood your original sarcasm as you did with my reply.

One thing, Burke is not an UFA, he is signed through the 2004-2005 season.

peace~!

is it an option year?

PhoPhan

10-10-2003, 10:08 AM

The Avs are fine the way they are.

Of course they are :rolleyes:
Seriously though, the Avalanche have a great team but I personally don't have any faith in Aebischer. If they can succeed with him between the pipes, then congratulations, they are fine. However, if he falters, and they blow this chance, then it's all going to be on either Aebischer for playing poorly or more likely Lacroix for not going out and improving his goaltending situation.

RoyIsALegend*

10-10-2003, 10:15 AM

Of course they are :rolleyes:
Seriously though, the Avalanche have a great team but I personally don't have any faith in Aebischer.

Why would you...? You're not an Avalanche fan.

Enoch

10-10-2003, 11:17 AM

Of course they are :rolleyes:
Seriously though, the Avalanche have a great team but I personally don't have any faith in Aebischer. If they can succeed with him between the pipes, then congratulations, they are fine. However, if he falters, and they blow this chance, then it's all going to be on either Aebischer for playing poorly or more likely Lacroix for not going out and improving his goaltending situation.

This is what makes hockey fun. No team is perfect, and everyone has its weaknesses or potential weaknesses. You can not guarantee a cup with Burke, who despite his good regular season play, has been bad in the playoffs. You can not guarantee a cup with Aebischer who has zero playoff experience and is taking over the no. 1 starting position for the first time. A GM has to take risks all the time.....If no risks were taken, no young talent would be developed..

Devils Advocate

10-10-2003, 01:52 PM

is it an option year?

Yes, I believe it's the teams option. I assume if he's traded, his new team also gets the option???

Devils Advocate

10-10-2003, 02:00 PM

No, it's *YET ANOTHER* stupid trade idea involving Sean Burke to Colorado, which automatically means there's no intelligence attached to it.

Hey Irish Blues, thanks for adding nothing & stopping in to add your insightful comments.

I'm sure your Blues Co-horts appreciate you making all of you look like idiots.

Can't wait to see Nash run your *****es tonight.

I'm sure even though Pronger is a foot taller, he'll hide behind his stick or Reed Lowe.

10-10-2003, 04:53 PM

- Second, Fletcher isnt GM and hasnt been for a couple years. What a player was worth a couple years ago and what he's worth now are two COMPLETELY different things.

He hasnt won a playoff series in over a decade, and he's coming off injury.

--
KL

1. You dont follow the coyotes much do you? Barnett and Fletcher split the trade duty pretty evenly. The market has changed, your right, but its for the better. There are plenty of question marks in goal around the league, and only a few options are there.

Hasnt won? Tell me a series wheres hes had some support, please.

This arguement shouldnt be about "fair market value", since when do teams trade off of that basis? Burke brings more to the table that teams are willing to pay, whats the problem understanding that? Yeah I might sound crazy asking for a 1st and a longshot prospect, but hes not going to be moved for peanuts like a 2nd rounder. To suggest that Wayne would throw a chance at the playoffs, leadership and a solid goalie out the window for a 2nd is ludacris

The ONLY question with Burke is durability, hes had plenty of time to heal and is looking good so far. Playoffs will not be a problem with a stacked team like the Avs.

Burke's Evil Spirit

10-10-2003, 05:00 PM

1. You dont follow the coyotes much do you? Barnett and Fletcher split the trade duty pretty evenly. The market has changed, your right, but its for the better. There are plenty of question marks in goal around the league, and only a few options are there.

For the better?! The goaltender market is for the better?! When Brian Boucher and Curtis Joseph are passing through waivers? There is absolutely no goaltending market right now.

To suggest that Wayne would throw a chance at the playoffs, leadership and a solid goalie out the window for a 2nd is ludacris

Ludicrous (listening to too much rap, are we? ;) )

10-10-2003, 05:02 PM

For the better?! The goaltender market is for the better?! When Brian Boucher and Curtis Joseph are passing through waivers? There is absolutely no goaltending market right now.

Ludicrous (listening to too much rap, are we? ;) )

Boosh - 2 million dollar scrub backup
Cujo - 8 million dollar scrub backup

sorry, I didnt check the spelling on that one :D

Burke's Evil Spirit

10-10-2003, 05:22 PM

Boosh - 2 million dollar scrub backup
Cujo - 8 million dollar scrub backup

sorry, I didnt check the spelling on that one :D

The point being is that 1 year ago there was quite the bidding war between Toronto and Detroit for Joseph...and that 1 year ago Phoenix was more than willing to give up Michal Handzus for Boucher.

10-10-2003, 06:55 PM

If CuJo is a "scrub backup," then so is Burke. CuJo is WORLDS better than Burke, homer.

--
KL

:lol:

now thats classic

Burke .930 sv 2.12 GAA
Cujo .912 sv 2.49 GAA

Cujo has never posted a betta GAA than Burkes last season, and that was with Burke being injured.
edit: same applies for Sv % according to ESPN

once again, you prove you know little if anything about the coyotes or Burke.

Enoch

10-10-2003, 09:24 PM

Burke played 22 games last season....You can't use that as a benchmark for how good he is. Career wise, Joseph does have better numbers, and is the better playoff goalie.....

Also, it is not ludicrious for Burke to be moved for a 2nd round pick....especially at the deadline, when he will most likely be traded and when you will know if it is a possiblity for the Yotes to make the playoffs. If they are in, I seriously doubt Burke would be moved. If they aren't, you better believe management is looking for some nice draft picks....

kenabnrmal

10-10-2003, 09:35 PM

1. CuJo has won many playoff series. Burke has not. CuJo has broken 30 wins 6 times (with 29 wins 3 more times), Burke has done it once. Basically, you can take regular season stats from one year and try to make your point, but the whole point of acquiring a goalie is to win playoff games. Burke has proven that he cannot win in the playoffs. CuJo can.

2. You keep ducking me. Stop being a coward. I want you to cite an article with a quote from one of the two GMs that specifically says that Boston offered a #1. Either cite that article or retract your claim and admit you made it up.

I am not going to back down on this. Stop being a coward.

--
KL

Actually, anyone who's followed Burke's career a bit knows that he's basically had two careers. Pre-Allaire, and Post-Allaire. Burke was an entirely different goalie before he came to Phoenix, with a different technique. Since he's joined the Yotes he hasn't had the support to be a playoff winner. Its fine to say he hasn't proved himself in the playoffs, but he hasn't proved he cannot win in the playoffs, as he hasn't had a true chance to do so since he's become a complete goaltender.

As for comparisons to Joseph...I'd put Burke as an equal since he's been with Phoenix. I don't have the stats handy, but he's performed at least as well. Calling Joseph a backup is utterly and completely laughable. The fact is that the guy is still easily one of the 10 best goalies in the league, maybe better. He hasn't proven himself in the playoffs, sure. But he certainly isn't a backup.

10-10-2003, 09:48 PM

He hasn't proven himself in the playoffs, sure. But he certainly isn't a backup.

Then why is he warming the bench behind Hasek?

Enoch

10-10-2003, 09:51 PM

Then why is he warming the bench behind Hasek?

I think your post answers itself......HASEK ;)

Enoch

10-10-2003, 09:53 PM

Because it's Dominik Hasek, genius.

You keep ducking me. Stop being a coward. I want you to cite an article with a quote from one of the two GMs that specifically says that Boston offered a #1. Either cite that article or retract your claim and admit you made it up.

I am not going to back down on this. Stop being a coward.

--
KL

Holy crap you totally edited while I was posting......and we posted the same thing :joker: I hate it when that happens.

_Del_

10-10-2003, 09:54 PM

Then why is he warming the bench behind Hasek?

:rolleyes: B/c the Wings planned it that way. That way in case Hasek goes down, they still have Cujo... :rolleyes:

Ironchef Chris Wok*

10-10-2003, 11:24 PM

Back up your claim about Boston offering the #1 or else retract your comment and admit you are making it up.

--
KL

Er... I can't find ANY PART in that quote where Boston offered a 1st rounder. QUOTE PROPERLY.

Maybe it's in a previous post or something, but from the post you quoted, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT Boston offering a 1st.

Edit: Never mind, I just found the post where he mentions it.

Point of this is: If you're going to say this person said something about Boston, USE THAT POST INSTEAD OF ANOTHER ONE.

Gwyddbwyll

10-11-2003, 01:27 AM

You keep ducking me. Stop being a coward. I want you to cite an article with a quote from one of the two GMs that specifically says that Boston offered a #1. Either cite that article or retract your claim and admit you made it up.

I am not going to back down on this. Stop being a coward.

--
KL

Jeez do you know how you sound? "stopbeingacoward stopbeingacoward"

How long have you been away? It was all over the boards with reports from CBS Sports, the Boston Globe, the Boston Herald. I doubt you'll find a direct quote since GM's very rarely openly discuss these things, at least while they're still in a job. You of all people should know that with PL as your GM - the guy screams blue murder if a tiny bit of information is leaked.

If he made it up, then so did several major multi-national news associations and so did thousands of fans on the internet discussing it. Get off your high horse and just accept he wasnt making it up.

PhoPhan

10-11-2003, 03:33 AM

Burke had a big night last night. While it was only one night, he played 65 minutes and stopped 23 of 24 shots, standing on his head for many of them. While it is only one game, it is obvious his talent is not diminishing. If he can disprove this theory of him suddenly being injury prone somehow, his value should improve in everyone's eyes.

hbk

10-11-2003, 06:13 AM

Jeez do you know how you sound? "stopbeingacoward stopbeingacoward"

How long have you been away? It was all over the boards with reports from CBS Sports, the Boston Globe, the Boston Herald. I doubt you'll find a direct quote since GM's very rarely openly discuss these things, at least while they're still in a job. You of all people should know that with PL as your GM - the guy screams blue murder if a tiny bit of information is leaked.

If he made it up, then so did several major multi-national news associations and so did thousands of fans on the internet discussing it. Get off your high horse and just accept he wasnt making it up.

Not that it matters but I recall reading the Phoenix turning down the first round pick offer after the draft in the Arizona Republic website. I looked for a history but couldn't see anything. There was a lot of conflicting stories on that website. Before the draft they were reports that insinuated that Burke could be had for a first round pick. It was after the draft where there was an arictle that stated Phoenix turned Boston's offer down and this offer included a first round pick. Popular media picked up the first story but didn't really run with the second. Doesn't really matter though does it.

Ensane

10-11-2003, 09:08 AM

Not that it matters but I recall reading the Phoenix turning down the first round pick offer after the draft in the Arizona Republic website. I looked for a history but couldn't see anything. There was a lot of conflicting stories on that website. Before the draft they were reports that insinuated that Burke could be had for a first round pick. It was after the draft where there was an arictle that stated Phoenix turned Boston's offer down and this offer included a first round pick. Popular media picked up the first story but didn't really run with the second. Doesn't really matter though does it.
You know, even though KL has a way with words, he's got a very strong point.

Just because it got so much hype through the media and these boards doesn't mean it was true. For all we know some intern at a newspaper in Boston could have started the ball rolling. It also could have been an offer that included Burke and Boston's 1st round pick (heck for all we know it coulda been Burke and Nagy for Boston's #1). But the fact of the matter is, just as KL said, unless there is a direct quote that Boston offered a 1st for Burke straight up, it's hard to use that in an argument when determining Burke's value on the open market.

Since there isn't any solid material, it must be classified as "just another rumor." Sorry to burst anyone's bubble on this.

hbk

10-11-2003, 10:47 AM

You know, even though KL has a way with words, he's got a very strong point.

Just because it got so much hype through the media and these boards doesn't mean it was true. For all we know some intern at a newspaper in Boston could have started the ball rolling. It also could have been an offer that included Burke and Boston's 1st round pick (heck for all we know it coulda been Burke and Nagy for Boston's #1). But the fact of the matter is, just as KL said, unless there is a direct quote that Boston offered a 1st for Burke straight up, it's hard to use that in an argument when determining Burke's value on the open market.

Since there isn't any solid material, it must be classified as "just another rumor." Sorry to burst anyone's bubble on this.

The way rumors were flying around at that time it's hard to seperate the fact from fiction and the fiction from other fiction. All I can say is I read the article in question and it clearly stated that Phoenix turned Boston's first pick down. However, the exact same newspaper ran an article just prior to this one that stated that Burke could be had for a first round pick. Which individual article you beleive depends on your own personal bias. All we really know is that they had talks and Phoenix was looking to find an early pick and none of this matters now since the Bruins invested in Felix Potvin.

Gwyddbwyll

10-11-2003, 10:48 AM

If he is going to state it as a fact, that Boston offered a 1st, then he needs to post the article with a quote from the GM. Until there is a quote from a GM, it's BS.

Maybe he did read an article. If he did, he needs to post it. If the article did not contain a quote from one of the two parties involved, then it has no credibility. Thus, no matter what, unless there is a quote from one of the two GMs involved, it's BS.

I have never in my life seen people have so much of a problem with holding someone accountable for their comments.

--
KL

Hey I dont have a problem with it. In a perfect world it would be great if the GM's told us what they did said and thought every day. But that isnt reality. Hell I wouldnt even trust direct quotes.. GM's have a job to do and they want every edge they can get, including using the media.

You have a point that it MAY not be true, however you have to admit when its reported by credible journalists and media like CBS it's not just a fan making up BS on his own as you want to pretend. What I had a problem with was your hysterical "stop being a coward" stuff and your attempt at a straw man argument by focusing on a single thing and so completely ignoring the more important point - that it was very feasible and many people considered it so.

Ensane - there's a difference between a credible rumor and BS. One people take seriously as a realistic possibility and debate for days or even weeks. The other doesnt even last a day around here. The Cujo to Boston is an excellent example of that.

Ensane

10-11-2003, 11:40 AM

Ensane - there's a difference between a credible rumor and BS. One people take seriously as a realistic possibility and debate for days or even weeks. The other doesnt even last a day around here. The Cujo to Boston is an excellent example of that.
I understand, however in this case, I don't think that there was any need to even mention it. We're debating Burke's potential value, not the rumor itself. If the original poster wanted to support Burke's value as being underrated, he could have rephrased his statement quite easily and avoided this mess. I'm not gonna go as far as KL and say it's BS, but it certainly shouldn't be presented as fact either, because there's no real way to verify it as such.

I'm not trying to specify between legit rumor and a BS one ... I'm trying to make known that there's a huge difference from rumor and fact.

scarecrow

10-11-2003, 01:18 PM

If CuJo is a "scrub backup," then so is Burke. CuJo is WORLDS better than Burke, homer.

--
KL

Curtis Joseph stats of last four seasons

Save %
91.5
91.5
90.6
91.2
AVG: 91.2

GA
2.49
2.39
2.23
2.49
AVG: 2.4

Sean Burke:

Save %
91.4
92.2
92.0
93.0
AVG: 92.15

GA
2.55
2.27
2.29
2.12
AVG: 2.3

Burke has been the better of Joseph in save% for the last 4 seasons and has even had a better GAA, while Burke was playing in Phoenix and Florida, and Joseph was the goalie of Toronto and Detroit. Yet you say Cujo is WORLDS better than Burke, based on play-off performance. Yes, well it's a pity Burke only reached the play-offs two times during these 4 seasons, while putting up the above mentioned statistics. Makes you wonder about the quality of the team he was playing for maybe? But no, you say Burke sucks in the play-offs, therefore Joseph is WORLDS better, therefore every single colorado-fan wouldn't even give up a 3th rounder for him. The average save% over these 4 seasons for a goaltender named P'rick Roy was 91.8 compared to Burke's 92.15, but hey, Sean Burke? A 4th, nothing more.
It's the coyote fans who are 'homers' you say? Well I have a question for you: exactly how many games have you seen of Sean Burke the last couple of years? It certainly must be a lot more than those idiots who selected Burke as Vezina runner-up in 2002.

Oh, I've seen some of you have a hard time to believe facts everyone knows until they can see proof of them: here are the links for the statistics:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/statistics?statsId=440
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/players/statistics?statsId=131
http://proxy.espn.go.com/nhl/players/statistics?statsId=290

Ironchef Chris Wok*

10-11-2003, 06:19 PM

I understand, however in this case, I don't think that there was any need to even mention it. We're debating Burke's potential value, not the rumor itself. If the original poster wanted to support Burke's value as being underrated, he could have rephrased his statement quite easily and avoided this mess. I'm not gonna go as far as KL and say it's BS, but it certainly shouldn't be presented as fact either, because there's no real way to verify it as such.

I'm not trying to specify between legit rumor and a BS one ... I'm trying to make known that there's a huge difference from rumor and fact.

Thank you. :teach:

Enoch

10-11-2003, 08:53 PM

Again I reiterate that Burkes last year's stats should not be used in a debate. He only played 22 games..........Goaltenders get burned out slightly over an entire season as no. 1 tender.....

_Del_

10-11-2003, 09:31 PM

Again I reiterate that Burkes last year's stats should not be used in a debate. He only played 22 games..........Goaltenders get burned out slightly over an entire season as no. 1 tender.....

I won't argue, but since his stats aren't out of line with the rest of his stats, they're not really too much of a stretch...

10-11-2003, 09:48 PM

Pass on Burke. Thanks but no thanks. We'll stick with Aebischer, who is probably better anyway.

Do you have any idea how insane you sound? Seriously, bud.
This guy is clearly a phony. He's just saying this to bait us into arguing with him. Nobody would actually believe this crap. We're being had. Nobody is this big a homer.
--
KL

:rolleyes:

10-11-2003, 09:52 PM

As for your regular season stats, great. Hope you enjoyed compiling them. They are worthless. Postseason is what counts. Maybe in Phoenix, where you dont make the playoffs despite your superstar goalie, the regular season means something. In Colorado, if you cant win in the postseason, which Burke has proven he cannot, you are useless.

Har har, cheap shot at phoenix.
Dare I remind you your precious Abby is less proven then Burke?

andora

10-11-2003, 10:07 PM

Har har, cheap shot at phoenix.
Dare I remind you your precious Abby is less proven then Burke?

that's like saying a virgin is less experienced then a one timer...

evman150*

10-11-2003, 10:18 PM

Then why is he warming the bench behind Hasek?

And the award for most moronic post of the year goes to.....XavierX!!!

:handclap:

evman150*

10-11-2003, 10:24 PM

The Avs should not trade for Burke. They are much better off keeping Aebischer.

I would rather be led into war by an untested general than by one who has lost almost every battle.

But if PL feels the need to get a goalie, I feel Olaf Kolzig is a much better option. Younger, reasonable salary, and has actually had success in the postseason since the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Sure it would cost more to get him, something like Skoula and Ballard, as opposed to a 3rd rounder, but if you want to win the Stanley Cup, you must make the tough trades.

Gwyddbwyll

10-12-2003, 01:12 AM

Burke hasnt won a playoff series in over a decade. CuJo took a crappy Edmonton team to the playoffs and knocked off the best team in hockey in game 7, despite being on the road.

I dont like CuJo at all, but he's better than Burke.

As for your regular season stats, great. Hope you enjoyed compiling them. They are worthless. Postseason is what counts. Maybe in Phoenix, where you dont make the playoffs despite your superstar goalie, the regular season means something. In Colorado, if you cant win in the postseason, which Burke has proven he cannot, you are useless.

Pass on Burke. Thanks but no thanks. We'll stick with Aebischer, who is probably better anyway. Maybe Aebischer will suck in the playoffs (like Burke) or maybe he wont. We dont know. We do, however, know that Burke cant win in the playoffs. Thus, giving up anything more than a 3rd rounder is ridiculous.

--
KL

Really poor argument KL. That's like saying Tanguay will never be a good player because we "know" he's sucked every time he doesnt play with a superstar.

You dont "know" anything. Burke hasnt "proven" he cant win.. in fact he actually has had success both in the playoffs and played incredibly well in the last few seasons but because it conflicts with your viewpoint you've decided to totally ignore these things and proclaim they dont exist and therefore it is 100% "proven" he's a loser. Quite amazing how you ask us to take your flawed conjecture as fact right after kicking up a fuss about taking other flawed conjecture as fact - ie/ Burke to Boston for a 1st.

Dont you see the hypocrisy in saying you "dont know" Aebischer will suck but you (NOT "we") "know" Burke will? Cujo's exploits were 7 years ago. That is just as much ancient history as Burke's exploits. Yet somehow its highly relevant but Burke's can be totally dismissed? Always nice to see consistancy.

Also you have the cheek to call other homers but you actually believe your back-up is probably better than one of the best starting goalies in the NHL in the past 4 seasons? I think that says it all about your own perspective.

Incidentially this might shock you - scarecrow is not a Phoenix fan.

10-12-2003, 10:26 AM

And the award for most moronic post of the year goes to.....XavierX!!!

:handclap:

Cujo is a backup atm, whats moronic about that?

Hes not going to get a ton of playing time, and his contract makes him almost untradeable. The fact he passed through waivers doesnt help at all, so hes stuck behind hasek. His playing is most likely going to suffer from it as well.

10-12-2003, 10:30 AM

Are you ever going to back up your claim?

I am not going to go away. You will back up your claim with a quote from either the Bruins or Coyotes front office, or you will admit that you were making it up.

--
KL

Im not making it up, the fact you just skipped over several other posters explaining that it was printed all over the internet and in a few newspapers, shows that your just ignorant.

Enoch

10-12-2003, 10:33 AM

Really poor argument KL. That's like saying Tanguay will never be a good player because we "know" he's sucked every time he doesnt play with a superstar.

You dont "know" anything. Burke hasnt "proven" he cant win.. in fact he actually has had success both in the playoffs and played incredibly well in the last few seasons but because it conflicts with your viewpoint you've decided to totally ignore these things and proclaim they dont exist and therefore it is 100% "proven" he's a loser. Quite amazing how you ask us to take your flawed conjecture as fact right after kicking up a fuss about taking other flawed conjecture as fact - ie/ Burke to Boston for a 1st.

Dont you see the hypocrisy in saying you "dont know" Aebischer will suck but you (NOT "we") "know" Burke will? Cujo's exploits were 7 years ago. That is just as much ancient history as Burke's exploits. Yet somehow its highly relevant but Burke's can be totally dismissed? Always nice to see consistancy.

Also you have the cheek to call other homers but you actually believe your back-up is probably better than one of the best starting goalies in the NHL in the past 4 seasons? I think that says it all about your own perspective.

Incidentially this might shock you - scarecrow is not a Phoenix fan.

What are you talking about......your way off here on almost every point. Cujo had extreme success just two years ago with Toronto. He got them to the confrence finals. Burke has not had any playoff sucess, only regular season success....Furthermore, your comment on Tanguay is very odd, considering he is 23 and has produced in and out of the playoffs, while Burke is 36 and has not shown anything outside of regular season success. Catch my points? I like Burke. I think he is a good goalie, but he hasn't had playoff success regardless of how you try to spin it.

Enoch

10-12-2003, 10:35 AM

10-12-2003, 10:37 AM

What others have posted is irrelevant. *YOU* claimed Boston offered a 1st. Back it up. I want to see a quote from Boston or Phoenix's front office.

As I said, this is not going to go away. Either provide the quote with the link, or else retract your claim.

--
KL

What others have Posted is irrelevant? So, you have been reading this thread based on what I have only said? Stevex and hbk have both said its been printed in papers and was posted all over the internet.

You cant, and wont find a "direct quote" theres no such thing. "Oh yeah we got offered this and that, so all you GMs out there gotta offer this and that...." Thats not how GMs do business, you being an Avs fan should know.

its not going to happen, so quit asking me for a "direct quote."

Your seriously acting like a little child "its not going to go away, stop being a coward etc..."

10-12-2003, 10:41 AM

What are you talking about......your way off here on almost every point. Cujo had extreme success just two years ago with Toronto. He got them to the confrence finals. Burke has not had any playoff sucess, only regular season success.... I like Burke. I think he is a good goalie, but he hasn't had playoff success regardless of how you try to spin it.

He took the devils to the finals, thats not success?

Dont label him as a poor playoff performer, just inexperienced. He has had zero support in the playoff series he has been in since then. The goal support was rediculous, no goalie could win with such little help from his team.

Pre Allaire and Post allaire as somebody put it, two very different Burkes. The latter having never seen the playoffs with a halfway decent team.

Enoch

10-12-2003, 11:02 AM

He took the devils to the finals, thats not success?

Dont label him as a poor playoff performer, just inexperienced. He has had zero support in the playoff series he has been in since then. The goal support was rediculous, no goalie could win with such little help from his team.

Pre Allaire and Post allaire as somebody put it, two very different Burkes. The latter having never seen the playoffs with a halfway decent team.

I'm not sure he is going to get another chance either. You guys have a shot this year, but Burke is going to have to be fabulous. Also, I think the point here is this: if the Avs are going to go out and get a goalie for the playoffs, they need to get somone that has shown a great deal of success. Otherwise they could be in the same situation as a young goaltender.

JCD

10-12-2003, 11:18 AM

He took the devils to the finals, thats not success?

Dont label him as a poor playoff performer, just inexperienced. He has had zero support in the playoff series he has been in since then. The goal support was rediculous, no goalie could win with such little help from his team.

Pre Allaire and Post allaire as somebody put it, two very different Burkes. The latter having never seen the playoffs with a halfway decent team.

One exception: his run with Philly.

Flyers were favored in that series and played well enough for them to win. Burke was the weakest link and cost them the series. He finished dead last in SV% and GAA among starters and the stats certainly tell the story.

Marshall

10-12-2003, 11:40 AM

"The Avs could get Kolzig for Tanguay and a 2nd."

No, they couldn't.

kenabnrmal

10-12-2003, 11:53 AM

One exception: his run with Philly.

Flyers were favored in that series and played well enough for them to win. Burke was the weakest link and cost them the series. He finished dead last in SV% and GAA among starters and the stats certainly tell the story.

And that was well before he changed his game with help from Allaire. As I said before, Burke's game has changed CONSIDERABLY since coming to Phoenix, and so has his performance. Ignore this and claim he's "useless" to a playoff team as KL suggests, but its more than apparent to most people who have followed Burke's career. Again, the bottom line is that he hasn't proved himself in the playoffs, EITHER WAY. He hasn't had a chance to.

And regular season performance has no link to playoff performance? A goalie that is good in the regular season isn't more likely to be good in the post-season? Basing a goaltender's value and ability solely on whether his teams have won championships is the laziest form of evaluation possible, imo. In Phoenix Burke has transformed his game and has proven to be one of the better regular season goalies in the league. Now he needs a chance to prove himself in the playoffs. I'm not saying he's a perfect fit for Colorado (I, unlike most, haven't written off Abby), however he's as good a fit as anyone else availiable, should they decide to trade for one, imo.

JCD

10-12-2003, 12:06 PM

And that was well before he changed his game with help from Allaire. As I said before, Burke's game has changed CONSIDERABLY since coming to Phoenix, and so has his performance. Ignore this and claim he's "useless" to a playoff team as KL suggests, but its more than apparent to most people who have followed Burke's career. Again, the bottom line is that he hasn't proved himself in the playoffs, EITHER WAY. He hasn't had a chance to.

And regular season performance has no link to playoff performance? A goalie that is good in the regular season isn't more likely to be good in the post-season? Basing a goaltender's value and ability solely on whether his teams have won championships is the laziest form of evaluation possible, imo. In Phoenix Burke has transformed his game and has proven to be one of the better regular season goalies in the league. Now he needs a chance to prove himself in the playoffs. I'm not saying he's a perfect fit for Colorado (I, unlike most, haven't written off Abby), however he's as good a fit as anyone else availiable, should they decide to trade for one, imo.

No denying that he has improved his game since joining Phoenix.

However, I also don't think there is no denying his lack of play-off success.

At this stage of his career, I don't think Burke belongs in the 'unproven' catagory. This is likely the last season of his career. If you are still unproven at the end of the line, you have proven by default.

I am not saying that Burke won't win a Cup, just that he is not a goaltender teams will pay a premium price to acquire. He is too old for any long-term benefit and too unproven short-term.

Cechmanek went for a 2nd, I think that is a good appraisal of Burke's value. Both have had excellent regular seasons and have not done much of anything in the post-season.

Yayo

10-12-2003, 12:20 PM

"The Avs could get Kolzig for Tanguay and a 2nd."

No, they couldn't.

The Avs could get Kolzig for Tanguay and a 3rd.

Better??

andora

10-12-2003, 12:31 PM

Your seriously acting like a little child "its not going to go away, stop being a coward etc..."

you're wasting your breath.. honestly.. it's not even worth it

andora

10-12-2003, 01:51 PM

http://www3.telus.net/andorasbox/personal/Smilies/yeah%20more/icon_blahblah.gif

wazee

10-12-2003, 01:55 PM

Your seriously acting like a little child "its not going to go away, stop being a coward etc..."

May I suggest the ignore list? It works for me. :)

kenabnrmal

10-12-2003, 02:01 PM

No denying that he has improved his game since joining Phoenix.

However, I also don't think there is no denying his lack of play-off success.

At this stage of his career, I don't think Burke belongs in the 'unproven' catagory. This is likely the last season of his career. If you are still unproven at the end of the line, you have proven by default.

I am not saying that Burke won't win a Cup, just that he is not a goaltender teams will pay a premium price to acquire. He is too old for any long-term benefit and too unproven short-term.

Cechmanek went for a 2nd, I think that is a good appraisal of Burke's value. Both have had excellent regular seasons and have not done much of anything in the post-season.

I agree. His value around the league is likely a 2nd. The Yotes likely want more than that at this point, and thats the reason he hasn't been dealt yet.

PhoPhan

10-12-2003, 05:21 PM

And the award for most moronic post of the year goes to.....XavierX!!!

:handclap:

And the award, for stealing my shtick...

*drumroll*

Evman150!!

Sorry, this thread has really devolved into a childish argument. Who would've expected that from a Sean Burke trade proposal?
:rolleyes:

10-12-2003, 05:51 PM

1. Burke never took the Devils to the finals, genius.

2. He is a poor playoff performer. He has been the starter for six different playoff seasons. Five of those seasons, he has lost in the first round. That's not inexperience.

3. "The goal support was rediculous, no goalie could win with such little help from his team."

Well, when you are letting in goals early, OF COURSE goal support is going to drop. If he were able to keep them in games, maybe they would score more. When you drop 2 or 3 goals early in the game, and your offense is playing catch up the rest of the game while the other team is playing the trap, it's kind of hard to score goals.

1. Holy crap, someone warn the Devils. 9 wins somehow doesnt get you to the conference finals!

2. The majority of the time those teams are lucky to be in the playoffs anyways.

3. Wow, what wierd logic you have. I thought it was the teams job to support the goalie, not the other way around? So if the flyers stop playing D, Burkes at fault?

Roman Cechmanek? Little or no goal support
Chris Osgood? Lack of spirit in team defense

Goalies are very rarely solely responsible for a teams loss in the playoffs, if ever.

10-12-2003, 07:57 PM

1. The conference finals are not the finals.

2. Wow, so the goalie is not to be held accountable for costing his team games? Now teams are expected to score more than 3.6 goals per game?

3. I think you're going to have a hard time finding a Flyers fan who will agree with you that Burke was not the cause of the team losing. Same with Cechmanek.

4. For you to say that Detroit "lacked spirit in team defense" proves that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Detroit prided itself on team defense, genius.

5. Quit ducking me. Post the quote or admit you are wrong. Be a man.

--
KL

1. That settles that...

2. No, they are expected to play some god damn defense.

3. Your point being? Any fan is more than willing to point the finger at the goalie for their lack of success. How many goalies have the flyers gone through?

4. I thought we were talking about Osgood last year.

5. Ill post the quote when you stop acting like a 5 yr old.