About Havlat [Archive]

thome_26

10-09-2003, 06:53 AM

Lowe and Muckler are two of the most responsible GMs in the league. That along would completely stop this from EVER happening. Secondly, I'm sure they are decent friends from their days with the Oilers and Rangers (was Lowe in NYR when Muck was?)

Don't hold your breathe waiting for these two to start screwin each other. I do think that Muckler is brutally low balling Havlat though. 1.9 is fair for him! If i was in Ottawa I'd be raising a stink when our team is SO close to a cup, and we are going to let one of the best young players sit because we want to screw him out of .5 mil

Oh well - I am glad to see GMs starting to take a hard line to these young kids thinking they should be paid like a 27 year old!

LegomyLeggio

10-09-2003, 06:53 AM

thome_26

10-09-2003, 07:03 AM

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=56580

"I was given an ultimatum to sign a Contract far below the League Average Salary which I cannot accept. I am not trying to establish a new market; I simply want to receive what I believe I am worth within the current market place as established by Philadelphia’s Simon Gagné and Tampa Bay’s Brad Richards."

Richards recently signed a three year deal with Tampa Bay which will pay him $2.4 million, $2.5 million and $4.35 million. Havlat's last counter offer to the Senators was for one year at $1.975-million. The Senators have offered $1.35-million.

Richards is greatly overpaid though. anything over 2 for players of this calibre and age is an overpayment. but asking for 1.7-1.9 range is close to fair. Then again they could give them the average paycheck of the average season tickett holder...... see if they felt the .2 or .3 million was still enough to miss a season and hurt your career.

nordique

10-09-2003, 07:13 AM

Richards is greatly overpaid though. anything over 2 for players of this calibre and age is an overpayment. but asking for 1.7-1.9 range is close to fair. Then again they could give them the average paycheck of the average season tickett holder...... see if they felt the .2 or .3 million was still enough to miss a season and hurt your career.

But it's a valid argument on Havlat's side...this is what happens when one owner stupidly overpays and everyone else is almost forced to fall into line. This is why the players are against a salary cap - the upward salary scale would be effectively curtailed.

Salaries, like law, are based on supply and demand and on precedent. If the marketplace is that Richards was deemed by someone to be worth over $2 million, then Havlat and Gaborik are clearly in that range. Havlat's asking for less than Richards...there's got to be some middle ground. Why not split the difference at, say, $1.65 and get him in the lineup, Muckler?

SensGod

10-09-2003, 07:28 AM

Salaries, like law, are based on supply and demand...

And the Sens don't need this particular 3rd string RW that badly...We'll gladly give the money to someone who actually wants to play...like Stumpy.

Other Dave

10-09-2003, 07:29 AM

Salaries (...) are based on supply and demand and on precedent.

Not in the case of the NHL, where the salaries of almost all players (ie restricted free agents) are dictated by the terms of the CBA.

Other Dave

snuffelapagus

10-09-2003, 07:57 AM

YellHockey*

10-09-2003, 07:58 AM

Not in the case of the NHL, where the salaries of almost all players (ie restricted free agents) are dictated by the terms of the CBA.

No. The CBA dictates the supply and demand for players. Until 31 a player has little demand for his services - one team.

SensGod

10-09-2003, 08:09 AM

I cant believe you Sens fans are behind Mucker on this one. Havlat's demands are not unreasonable. Also Muckler is risking alienating one of the core players on his team. Everyone knows that Havlat means more to the Senators that a third liner. He is an important part of their power play and often plays on the first and second lines as well.

I'm not surprised at all. The Currect CBA sold out these players...the players coming off their rookie contracts. No arbitration = no leverage. Don't blame the Sens for something that the CBA allows them to do...blame the NHLPA! Sure we're risking alienating him, but you know what? I don't care! After Yashin...I really don't care...just look at what we got in return for him!?!?!?!

Yes...he's more than a 3rd liner. But we want players here who want to play here...play for Ottawa...not just for their pocket book. Marty will make alot of money over his career...but he has to earn it first. Look at what Hossa got after his rookie contract. Havlat should get slightly less...and he's been offered that.

If you search the archives of these boards you will many posts by Sens fans arguing that Havlat is the most talented player on the team (including Hossa). The offer that Muckler is tending to Havlat is nothing but an insult in light of Smolinski's deal and the team's pay structure. In fact, the organization's whole posturing during this affair would lead any unbiased observer to beleive that for some reason management beleives that Havlat is not a welcome part of this team.

I think that Havlat has the potential to be better than Hossa. I was the first one to say and I"ll be the last to say it. Smolinski has been in this league for a lot of years...Havlat has 2...he hasn't put his time in...it's not even a comparison.

Havlat is a very welcome part of the team. But Ottawa isn't Tampa or PHiladelphia or Anaheim or St. Louis who have set a presedence that won't be followed here (Richards, Gagne, Kariya, and Pronger). These teams dropped their pants for their young players and payed them ALOT more than they should have. There is no need or obligation in the current CBA to overpay for these players that are not entitled to it.

From what I understand, Havlat is very popular with his teammates, most especially Hossa and Bonk. It will be interesting to see the effects on team chemistry if these negotiations end in an inseperable schism...

Well...these are supposed to be professionals...they'll get over it.

How do you think that Hossa would have felt if they would have caved into Havlat's desires? Hossa made ALOT less than that coming off his rookie contract.

I personally wish Havlat the best of luck, as he deserves better treatment despite having chosen a moron for an agent.

yup...bang on there!!!!

I also wish the best of luck to the Senators and their fans, they deserve to have a player like Havlat in the lineup in spite of having a moron GM like Mucker, who places higher value on useless players like Smolinski...

I'm pissed that Havlat isn't here...but if he would have been signed for 2.2 million a year, I think that I would have been even more pissed! Think about Spezza when he comes off his rookie contract??? That would oblige us to pay him close to 3 million!!!!!

Hossa made about 1.5 million a year the first year after his rookie contract. They made it higher than they wanted to pay him because he sacrificed two years of arbitration. So the Sens offer of 1.3 for Havlat is bang on...

Muckler RULES!

:yo:

MVP

10-09-2003, 08:34 AM

Ultimately Muckler might win in the short situation, but it would be tough to re-sign Havlat again in the future given the lack of respect being shown. i agree that Muckler has all right to do what is best for the team, but i really don't understand how Havlat would be willing to settle for less salary than Václav Varada who is making 1.5 millions. i know age plays a part but it was not like Varada was ever a UFA which could of driven his price up.

snuffelapagus

10-09-2003, 08:38 AM

I'm not surprised at all. The Currect CBA sold out these players...the players coming off their rookie contracts. No arbitration = no leverage. Don't blame the Sens for something that the CBA allows them to do...blame the NHLPA! Sure we're risking alienating him, but you know what? I don't care! After Yashin...I really don't care...just look at what we got in return for him!?!?!?!

Yes...he's more than a 3rd liner. But we want players here who want to play here...play for Ottawa...not just for their pocket book. Marty will make alot of money over his career...but he has to earn it first. Look at what Hossa got after his rookie contract. Havlat should get slightly less...and he's been offered that.

Havlat has already earned more that what he is being offered. He is an elite young players in the league and deserves a decent raise.

I think that Havlat has the potential to be better than Hossa. I was the first one to say and I"ll be the last to say it. Smolinski has been in this league for a lot of years...Havlat has 2...he hasn't put his time in...it's not even a comparison.

You are correct it is not even a compairison. Havlat at this stage in his career is infinitely more valuable to any NHL team than a dime a dozen player like Smoke ever has been.

Havlat is a very welcome part of the team. But Ottawa isn't Tampa or PHiladelphia or Anaheim or St. Louis who have set a presedence that won't be followed here (Richards, Gagne, Kariya, and Pronger). These teams dropped their pants for their young players and payed them ALOT more than they should have. There is no need or obligation in the current CBA to overpay for these players that are not entitled to it.

I don't think it would take the Sens "dropping their pants" to make Marty happy. As I stated earlier his asking price has been very reasonable.

I'm pissed that Havlat isn't here...but if he would have been signed for 2.2 million a year, I think that I would have been even more pissed! Think about Spezza when he comes off his rookie contract??? That would oblige us to pay him close to 3 million!!!!!

Hossa made about 1.5 million a year the first year after his rookie contract. They made it higher than they wanted to pay him because he sacrificed two years of arbitration. So the Sens offer of 1.3 for Havlat is bang on...

Muckler RULES!

:yo:

Yes Hossa made 1.55M in the first year of his second contract but also made 2.05 and 2.75 in the second and third years. Mucker offered Havlat 1.9 over TWO years. Not to mention that the first year of Hossa's second contract was a 130% raise from the final year of his entry contract. Mucker is offering Havlat 1.9 over TWO years. Even at 1.35M the raises offered here are nothing short of insulting.

I feel that Havlat wants to play in Ottawa and by the looks of last year's playoffs wants to win a cup as badly or moreso than most of his teammates. Muckler needs to get off his high horse and pay Havlat now.

Muckler=MORON and always has

SensGod

10-09-2003, 08:44 AM

MVP

10-09-2003, 08:46 AM

Marty has been offered slightly less money than Hossa made off his rookie contract. I don't see the lack of respect there.

Havlat is not signing a rookie contract though.

SensGod

10-09-2003, 08:48 AM

Havlat is not signing a rookie contract though.

I meant coming off of his rookie contract. 1.5 million dollars exceeds the rookie cap.

Don Draper

10-09-2003, 08:49 AM

This is the exact same situation to what happened last year with Rachunek. People keep making the argument about talent over age, but talent has no bearing here. Muckler is holding the cards for one contract, why would he possibly pay more than he believes he has to?
When people mention Smoke and Havlat in the same sentence, they have to mention Lyschysan and Rachunek. Obviously Rachunek is worth more than .7k a year, especially matched up against Lyschysans 2.2m per season. Its the same situation, just different players. I, as an ottawa fan am very happy that Muckler isnt budging here. Mind you, if he was offering a contract similar, or even a little more than what Hossa got, and still not budging, than I would have a problem. That isnt the case though, and he is just doing what is best for the organization over the long haul. No need to overpay now, cause you arent going to have those rights later.

As a side, I dont blame the kid at all, as by every statement he has made that he wants nothing better than to be playing for the Sens, but I really do think hes getting some bad advise. I just hate how 3 bad contracts can be the forum for every other deal, and not a fair deal, like what Hossa signed 3 years prior.

GKJ

10-09-2003, 08:54 AM

Havlat doesn't even want 2 mill?

We'll trade you Williams and a pick for Havlat and pay him 'Simon Gagne' money

leaflover

10-09-2003, 08:56 AM

Muckler is just doing what he's told to do.He has a boss and guidelines to work under just like everyone else.He's deserves neither the hero status nor the big bully status fans are putting on him.

MVP

10-09-2003, 08:56 AM

I meant coming off of his rookie contract. 1.5 million dollars exceeds the rookie cap.

Fair enough, as a fan of a Canadian base team, i under the importance of keeping the salary structure in balance. I understand where Muckler is coming from, maybe he even has a point of not signing Havlat to 1.97 millions $ one year deal given that would be 10% increase of that next season which would be close to be 2.2 million $ just to qualify him. i understand all those concerns, but Havlat and Walsh just won't sign a contract below that of Václav Varada who is making 1.5 millions $. It takes two sides to negotiate, it is not a situation where Muckler can do whatever he wants, the player still has the option of not playing and that is what Havlat is doing. i think it would be wise for Muckler to offer around 1.685 mil$ range, since that would still have Havlat as the 9 highest paid players on the club which is where Havlat places himself given his comments today.

Alfie#11

10-09-2003, 08:57 AM

Copied my post from another board:

This is why the ultimatum was stupid. Why escalate the tension for no reason?

They could have negotiated slooowly until December and would have got a decent deal done. Instead Muckler drops a verbal nuke.

My idea was to let him sit for awhile but pay him if needed. Can the Sens win without Havlat? Yes. But they aren't nearly as good without him.

The really need to get something done with Havlat. Hopefully the media is getting carried away and the situation isn't that bad.

This season is about the Cup and the Sens need all their assets to win. No time for silly contract disputes.

SensGod

10-09-2003, 09:02 AM

Havlat doesn't even want 2 mill?

We'll trade you Williams and a pick for Havlat and pay him 'Simon Gagne' money

See...it's teams like yours that are the cancer of the NHL right now.

snuffelapagus

10-09-2003, 09:02 AM

As a side, I dont blame the kid at all, as by every statement he has made that he wants nothing better than to be playing for the Sens, but I really do think hes getting some bad advise. I just hate how 3 bad contracts can be the forum for every other deal, and not a fair deal, like what Hossa signed 3 years prior.

Hossa received a 130% raise and a three year 6.35M contract THREE YEARS ago. How much of a raise is Mucks offering Havlat? About a quarter of that. In addition the market has gone up since Hossa re-signed three years ago and this needs to be taken into consideration as well. If Muckler and the Senators value Havlat they need to show him the same respect accorded Hossa.

SensGod

10-09-2003, 09:06 AM

Havlat has already earned more that what he is being offered. He is an elite young players in the league and deserves a decent raise.

You are correct it is not even a compairison. Havlat at this stage in his career is infinitely more valuable to any NHL team than a dime a dozen player like Smoke ever has been.

I don't think it would take the Sens "dropping their pants" to make Marty happy. As I stated earlier his asking price has been very reasonable.

Yes Hossa made 1.55M in the first year of his second contract but also made 2.05 and 2.75 in the second and third years. Mucker offered Havlat 1.9 over TWO years. Not to mention that the first year of Hossa's second contract was a 130% raise from the final year of his entry contract. Mucker is offering Havlat 1.9 over TWO years. Even at 1.35M the raises offered here are nothing short of insulting.

I feel that Havlat wants to play in Ottawa and by the looks of last year's playoffs wants to win a cup as badly or moreso than most of his teammates. Muckler needs to get off his high horse and pay Havlat now.

Muckler=MORON and always has

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/newbie7.jpg

Maybe you should get a clue. The 1.9 million over two years was a qualifying offer...it's a standard practice in the NHL. It's a 10% raise so that they player's right remain with the team.

You are obviously not listening and/or have no clue how the CBA works...so run along and get informed, then we can continue this conversation if you like.

SensGod

10-09-2003, 09:09 AM

Hossa received a 130% raise and a three year 6.35M contract THREE YEARS ago. How much of a raise is Mucks offering Havlat? About a quarter of that. In addition the market has gone up since Hossa re-signed three years ago and this needs to be taken into consideration as well. If Muckler and the Senators value Havlat they need to show him the same respect accorded Hossa.

Ah man...here we go again.

Hossa had a 4 year deal for a little over 9 million...

Hossa's base salary was ALOT lower in his rookie contract than Havlat's...at one point I belive that Hossa was making like 200K less than Havlat one year.

They have showed Havlat the same respect they showed Hossa...the contract offer for the first year after the rookie contract is essentially the same...

Get your facts straight...you're starting to look silly.

GKJ

10-09-2003, 09:11 AM

See...it's teams like yours that are the cancer of the NHL right now.
No we just have players who are cancers of our own team. The NHL? Try taking trips north and south on I-95 to New York and Washington. I didn't know a team dumping good players for next to nothing and bringing in younger players like Pitkanen, Vandermeer, Handzus and Gagne made us cancers of the NHL. Seems to me we're just getting prepared for what everyone else is.

What did that have to do with Havlat anyways?

SensGod

10-09-2003, 09:15 AM

No we just have players who are cancers of our own team. The NHL? Try taking trips north and south on I-95 to New York and Washington. I didn't know a team dumping good players for next to nothing and bringing in younger players like Pitkanen, Vandermeer, Handzus and Gagne made us cancers of the NHL. Seems to me we're just getting prepared for what everyone else is.

What did that have to do with Havlat anyways?

Sorry...I was generalizing. I meant specifically Gagne in the Flyers case. He got way too much coming off his rookie contract and is unnecessarily inflating players salaries at those ages.

it REALLY started a few years back with Kariya and Pronger though.

In the current CBA...the players between their rookie contracts and arbitration rights were sold out by the NHLPA. They have no leverage. These players should be playing for a 10% raise per year until they have arbitration rights. then at that point let either the team or an arbitrator figure out what their worth is.

This is what is broken with the current NHL...these young players who are still developing want to be paid as much or more than established NHL'ers. That's what I'm talking about.

There are alot more problems in the NHL *cough*Rangers*cough*...I'm just focusing on young players right now...not UFA's

MontrealSF

10-09-2003, 09:30 AM

all this crap going on about Muckler not showing Marty any respect...sheesh...how about Marty not showing the sens any respect.

Marty has been offered slightly less money than Hossa made off his rookie contract. I don't see the lack of respect there.

For 650K last year, I think Marty showed enough respect to the Sens to get a new contract worth his true abilities. Havlat was 4th in scoring (1pt less than White) but earned what a goon / 4th liner makes...

It's time for Muckler to realize it.

YellHockey*

10-09-2003, 09:31 AM

Copied my post from another board:

This is why the ultimatum was stupid. Why escalate the tension for no reason?

They could have negotiated slooowly until December and would have got a decent deal done. Instead Muckler drops a verbal nuke.

Why waste time negotiating until December? What's the point of that? Negotiate slowly in October? That's completely idiotic. They negotiated slowly in the summer. Now is the time to get it down.

No one is going to budge until they have something to lose. Muckler just sped up the process so that the stakes are moved to now instead of whenever.

snuffelapagus

10-09-2003, 09:31 AM

Ah man...here we go again.

Hossa had a 4 year deal for a little over 9 million...

Hossa's base salary was ALOT lower in his rookie contract than Havlat's...at one point I belive that Hossa was making like 200K less than Havlat one year.

They have showed Havlat the same respect they showed Hossa...the contract offer for the first year after the rookie contract is essentially the same...

Get your facts straight...you're starting to look silly.

I have been around on these boards at least as long as you, so watch your step "Miss/Mister 10 Million posts". I have stated facts which you are unable to refute. The rookie cap was obviously different for Havlat that it was for Hossa and if you are such a "God" you would know it. You are just trying to spin this topic with Sens colored shades while almost all unbiased observers accept that Muckler has been lowballing Havlat.

Look at the raise percentages offered and then tell me Havlat is being shown respect.

And drop the attitude, please. I am just trying to have a civil hockey discussion here...

YellHockey*

10-09-2003, 09:40 AM

Havlat has already earned more that what he is being offered. He is an elite young players in the league and deserves a decent raise.

Why does he deserve a decent raise? Because YOU say so? Too bad the CBA says he's entitled to a 10% raise.

You are correct it is not even a compairison. Havlat at this stage in his career is infinitely more valuable to any NHL team than a dime a dozen player like Smoke ever has been.

What does a player's value have to do with how much he makes? We are arguing his salary demands in this thread, not his talent.

I don't think it would take the Sens "dropping their pants" to make Marty happy. As I stated earlier his asking price has been very reasonable.

According to what? His asking price is more then he is entitled to.

Yes Hossa made 1.55M in the first year of his second contract but also made 2.05 and 2.75 in the second and third years. Mucker offered Havlat 1.9 over TWO years. Not to mention that the first year of Hossa's second contract was a 130% raise from the final year of his entry contract. Mucker is offering Havlat 1.9 over TWO years. Even at 1.35M the raises offered here are nothing short of insulting.

Hossa gave up two years of arbitration rights when he signed the long term deal. That's why he got a significant raise in the first two years of the deal. You either get more now but less long term or you get less now and more long term. It's an easy thing to understand. Why don't you get it? Do you have trouble understanding easy things?

I feel that Havlat wants to play in Ottawa and by the looks of last year's playoffs wants to win a cup as badly or moreso than most of his teammates. Muckler needs to get off his high horse and pay Havlat now.

Wrong. Havlat needs to get off his high horse and understand that he has far more to lose then Muckler.

Muckler=MORON and always has

Muckler has proven himself to be a shrewd negotiator. While I suspect that when you negotiate a purchase price on a car you bring along your own supply of lube that'll come in handy after the salesman bends you over and gives it to you in negotiations. Who's the MORON then?

SensGod

10-09-2003, 09:54 AM

I have been around on these boards at least as long as you, so watch your step "Miss/Mister 10 Million posts". I have stated facts which you are unable to refute. The rookie cap was obviously different for Havlat that it was for Hossa and if you are such a "God" you would know it. You are just trying to spin this topic with Sens colored shades while almost all unbiased observers accept that Muckler has been lowballing Havlat.

Look at the raise percentages offered and then tell me Havlat is being shown respect.

And drop the attitude, please. I am just trying to have a civil hockey discussion here...

Hossa's stats the last year of his rookie contract:

78 GP 29G 27A 56PTS

Havlat's stats last year of his rookie contract:

67 GP 24G 35A 59PTS

Very similar numbers. The team that Hossa played for that year was ALOT less skilled than the one that Havlat played for last year, so you can assume that Havlat's numbers would be slightly inflated compared to Hossa's.

Hossa made 1.5 million the year after on the first year of a 4 year contract that was inflated $$$$ wise because he essentially "sold" his firts two years of arbitration to the Sens.

1.35 million for Havlat is right bang on with the same amount of "respect" that Hossa was shown when he came off his rookie contract.

Raise %ages are irrelevant compared to Hossa because he made quite a bit less than Havlat did on his rookie contract.

Let me ask you one last question. Do you think that Martin Havlat should be paid more than someone like uuuhh...Tanguay or Paul Kariya?

Dunno...I don't think that I'm spinning with with Sens shades on...look at what Tanguay makes...then tell me Havlat should be paid more!

snuffelapagus

10-09-2003, 09:58 AM

Why does he deserve a decent raise? Because YOU say so? Too bad the CBA says he's entitled to a 10% raise.

Are comparable players in his situation around the league and on his team receiving only their minimum 10% raises?

What does a player's value have to do with how much he makes? We are arguing his salary demands in this thread, not his talent.

Nice point. Talent should have nothing to with what a player makes?

According to what? His asking price is more then he is entitled to.

Because YOU say so?

Hossa gave up two years of arbitration rights when he signed the long term deal. That's why he got a significant raise in the first two years of the deal. You either get more now but less long term or you get less now and more long term. It's an easy thing to understand. Why don't you get it? Do you have trouble understanding easy things?

I completley understand. Muckler is lowballing Havlat. He has not offered him a contract close to that of Hossa's second deal no matter how you slice it.

Wrong. Havlat needs to get off his high horse and understand that he has far more to lose then Muckler.

I suppose we'll have to wait and see on that one...

Muckler has proven himself to be a shrewd negotiator. While I suspect that when you negotiate a purchase price on a car you bring along your own supply of lube that'll come in handy after the salesman bends you over and gives it to you in negotiations. Who's the MORON then?

And what has Mucker ever done as GM? Oh yeah the Sabres, not too impressive...

SensGod

10-09-2003, 10:02 AM

He has not offered him a contract close to that of Hossa's second deal no matter how you slice it.

And what has Mucker ever done as GM? Oh yeah the Sabres, not too impressive...

OH? not even close eh? How "close" is "close" for you...from what I've seen...it's about 150K "close". In todays NHL, when it comes to contracts...that DAMNED "close".

Muckler...Sabers...not impressive...LOL... :rolleyes:

Vlad The Impaler

10-09-2003, 10:40 AM

I think Havlat deserves more.

Both parties will likely lose out in this.

YellHockey*

10-09-2003, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyMeatWhistle
Why does he deserve a decent raise? Because YOU say so? Too bad the CBA says he's entitled to a 10% raise.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are comparable players in his situation around the league and on his team receiving only their minimum 10% raises?
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by BigDaddyMeatWhistle

What does a player's value have to do with how much he makes? We are arguing his salary demands in this thread, not his talent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice point. Talent should have nothing to with what a player makes?
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by BigDaddyMeatWhistle

According to what? His asking price is more then he is entitled to.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Because YOU say so?

Havlat isn't entitled to "market value". If he were, the CBA would give him arbitration rights that he could use to enforce his right to "market value". Instead the CBA has mandated a 10% raise for players in his situation and that's all he is entitled to.

A player's salary is not based on his talent - it is based upon his bargaining power. A player that is young has little bargaining power regardess of his talent. A player that is over 31 with talent has lots of bargaining power.

snuffelapagus

10-09-2003, 11:14 AM

BDMW and SensGod,

If Havlat had NO bargaining power he would have capitulated by now. His only bargaining power lies in what he is doing right now, sitting out.

Thanks for your comparisons on Kariya and Tanquay. Do we need to list all the players that have signed for way more than what Havlat is asking for? My main point is that by most non-Sens accounts, Havlat is being lowballed.

If Muckler offered Havlat the exact same contract as Hossa got 3 years ago, I feel there is a good chance he would be in the Sens lineup by now. By your admission SG, Hoss and Havlat are relatively close production-wise at the same points in their careers.

I recall Hossa's negotiations being difficult, but certainly not as vitriolic as these. Thus my point that Havlat is not being afforded the respect that Hossa was.

I appreciate the discourse and, of course, respect your opinions. Like any good topic this has much gray area which can be discussed ad nauseum, but other duties bekon. I realize that I did use a smattering of hyperbole in my arguements which, but did refrain from any personal affronts to my fellow posters. The next time we meet on the boards I look forward to being treated in kind.

As for Muckler, I have never been a fan. And feel that any success he enjoyed with the Sabres came on the shoulders of Hasek. (Though I must admit the trade to acquire the Dominator remains one of the most shrewd/fortuitous in NHL history)

Cheers
Snuffelapagus

Harmony

10-09-2003, 11:20 AM

V for Voodoo

10-09-2003, 11:27 AM

About the Havlat/Hossa Debate :

I'm just wondering if Muckler would give Havlat the same deal he gave to Hossa? What do the debaters think about it? Personnally, I think both side have good points, but it's considering Muckler would give the same long term deal to Havlat. If Muckler insists on a short term deal that pays that much (or that low) I think they're lowballing him and disrespecting him.

by all accounts havlat is not interested in signing a deal longer than two years, so to not lose a year or two of arbitration eligibility. if Havlat is going to demand a one year or two year deal, he is going to get lowballed, and deservedly so, period.

Harmony

10-09-2003, 11:28 AM

by all accounts havlat is not interested in signing a deal longer than two years, so to not lose a year or two of arbitration eligibility. if Havlat is going to demand a one year or two year deal, he is going to get lowballed, and deservedly so, period.

But in your opinion, would Muckler offer the same deal Hossa had to Havlat if he wanted a long term deal?

Enoch

10-09-2003, 11:28 AM

I'm not a Sens fan and I believe all he should be making is 1.35 - 1.75 mil., leaning torwards the middle...

V for Voodoo

10-09-2003, 11:33 AM

But in your opinion, would Muckler offer the same deal Hossa had to Havlat if he wanted a long term deal?
imo, yes, definitely in that range.

you give up years of arbitration, you get more money. that's how it works .
if havlat is so intent on preserving his precious arbitration rights, that should tell you something. he knows he'll get his payday then.
you cant have your cake (2 years, high salary) and eat it too (immediate arbitration, high salary again)

Harmony

10-09-2003, 11:41 AM

imo, yes, definitely in that range.

you give up years of arbitration, you get more money. that's how it works .
if havlat is so intent on preserving his precious arbitration rights, that should tell you something. he knows he'll get his payday then.
you cant have your cake (2 years, high salary) and eat it too (immediate arbitration, high salary again)

Good answer, I guess you're right If I consider that Muckler sees the situation the same way you do. I'm just not convinced, considering Muckler's attitude, that the sens would give Havlat the same kind of deal they gave to Hossa. I really don't like that Ultimatum thing....

V for Voodoo

10-09-2003, 11:44 AM

Good answer, I guess you're right If I consider that Muckler sees the situation the same way you do. I'm just not convinced, considering Muckler's attitude, that the sens would give Havlat the same kind of deal they gave to Hossa. I really don't like that Ultimatum thing....

when you're dealing with an agent who doesnt contact you all summer because he thinks the -qualifying offer- is 'not serious' or who says things like 'my not-so-serious offer is $10 - $11 and $12 million', odds are you're forced into extreme measures, like an ultimatum.

Slime

10-09-2003, 11:56 AM

I can't believe how underpaid young players are in the NHL (and older are always over paid).

Havlat deserves $3 M, easily! Anything under $2M is a joke. And comparing his salary to a team mates' like Hossas (who of course also is severely underpaid by the cheap and greedy Senators) is dishonest against Havlat, it's like totally ignoring his market value.

3 times $3M equals $9 M, which would I'd get 3 Havlats for one Modano - and of course I'd choose them. Paying Havlat only $1.5 M would mean a team gets 6 players of his calibre for just one Modano - that's sick.

(and don't come with the UFA argument to justify salaries like Modanos', because almost all the star players got their +$7M contracts earlier than that in their career.)

V for Voodoo

10-09-2003, 11:59 AM

Slime

so if you have our way the new cba will pay players more, like double what they make now. interesting. why do i get the feeling you're also one claiming the league needs a salary cap or it will crumble? hmmm

the nhl is a business, and this is not how it is run. there is no debate to be had on the subject.

SensGod

10-09-2003, 12:00 PM

(and don't come with the UFA argument to justify salaries like Modanos', because almost all the star players got their +$7M contracts earlier than that in their career.)

3+ million for a player that hasn't broken 60 points in his career...You a Rangers fan? :rolleyes:

I'm not going to bother with the first part of that post...

Ok...other than the likes of Kariya, Pronger, or Iginla...who else is there? Players like that are "special" talents...and in today's salary structure...deserve it.

Guerin made his bucks when he became a UFA
Kasparitis made his big bucks when he became a UFA
Fedorov made his big bucks when he became a UFA
Holik made his big bucks when he became a UFA

...and the list goes on and on and on...I bet you my list is ALOT longer than yours....

Peter

10-09-2003, 12:03 PM

Muckler and Hvlat (and his agent) have gotten into a pi**ing contest and Muckler hates to lose those. Just ask former Sabre coach Ted Nolan. In this regard Brian Burke and Muckler are very much alike. The Hvlat negotiations are very much like the Peter Schaeffer negotiations two years ago with Vancouver and Burke...the only difference is (and it is a big difference) that Hvlat is 10 times the player that Schaeffer is.

That said I think Muckler is making a mistake here. Hvlat has compromised greatly. And for Muckler to offer Hvlat a contract "below the average salary" is a slap in the face. Muckler will regret this decision.

V for Voodoo

10-09-2003, 12:05 PM

That said I think Muckler is making a mistake here. Hvlat has compromised greatly.

HOW? What has Havlat conceded during negotiations? Nothing!
He still wants high dollars, short term. Aka the best of both worlds

sensfan18

10-09-2003, 01:04 PM

I love how everyone is jumping all over muckler for doing his job. If every GM would follow the CBA and manage money the way it should be managed maybe we would be having hockey next year, GET A CLUE!! Hossa's 2nd contract has no effect on this at all, Marty will NOT take a 4 year deal, therefore he is going to get considerably less. That would be an awful stupid move to pay Havlat what hossa makes for 2 years when it is not necessary, just so he can then go to arbitration and the sens will get bombed. Muckler is not a Moron, Morons don't stay in the NHL as long as he has. After all this has been said I agree the 1.35 is a lowball, but 2 mil is ridiculous, there is no reason to pay him that. I hope both parties get their s**t together and settle at about 1.5 or 1.6 and move on with this season.

PS. The thing I don't understand about this is why non sens fans are more :rant: than sens fans.

Slime

10-09-2003, 04:15 PM

3+ million for a player that hasn't broken 60 points in his career...You a Rangers fan? :rolleyes:

Ok...other than the likes of Kariya, Pronger, or Iginla...who else is there? Players like that are "special" talents...and in today's salary structure...deserve it.

...and the list goes on and on and on...I bet you my list is ALOT longer than yours....

Some examples of players that are of Havlat's calibre (or worse):
Drury gets $3.5M
Sami Kapanen 3.0
Deadmarsh 3.0
Valeri Bure 3.1
Radek Bonk 3.5
Friesen 3.0
Michael Nylander 2.7
Daymond Langkow 2.7

And he's clearly better than the following players(and thus deserves more):
Mike York 2.0
Zednik 2.0
Langenbrunner 2.1
Sturm 2.0
Marleau 2.4

Btw, Samsonov just got 3.7 M, and you're suggesting Havlat should earn less than half of that...

I repeat: anything under 2M is a joke. A player who is projected to get 30 + 40 = 70 points in 82 games deserves $3M.

KOMO_ROCKS

10-09-2003, 05:23 PM

Havlat is not signing a rookie contract though.

Exactly.....i dont see Havlat in Ottawa too much longer after coming back from the Czech league

Skrymir

10-09-2003, 06:12 PM

I, as are most sens fans, am in full support of muckler's actions. He's been trying to brach the gap bit by bit, but has seen nothing reciprocated from Havlat's agents. Plus, the offer that was on the table was reasonable considering it brings Havlat to arbitration elegibility, when it expires. (For those who did not know the sens last offer was a 2 year $2.85 million)

Frankly I wouldn't pay Havlat much more on a 2 year contract (MAYBE 3mil [1.4,1.6]). Now if Havlat was willing to sign a 4 year contract. I could see the sens even giving him up to 10mil [1.6, 2.2, 2.8, 3.4], which IMO would be the best situation for both sides.

Havlat can sit and sulk in the Czech rebublic all he wants, the sens don't need him to win, he has no barganing power, he only hurts himself by sitting out. Even if he asks fo a trade, the sens won't do it unless it's a last resort, and that will only come if this hasn't been resolved come the start of next season (*knocks on wood*). If havlat wants to play, and help bring a stanley cup to Ottawa he'll fire his idiot agents, and sign a reasonable deal. If he doesn't, to hell with him, we don't need him.

Dr.Sens(e)

10-09-2003, 06:12 PM

The Sens will pay him more if he will sign a longer term deal, but if he insists on a 1 year deal - or even worse a two year deal which takes him straight to arbitration - then he'll have to take less.

Richards, Gagne and others all gave up a year or two of arbitration rights to get the money they got. Havlat and his agent haven't even considered that scenario. Hence - he is offered a lot less. And that's for good reason. If he gets to arbitration in two years, he'll get there at the same time as Hossa, but be there two years earlier, and end up making more money (which is ok, but in the mean time, he has to bite the bullet).

In terms of comparisons, Richards has more points for the Bolts over the last three years than any other player on the team including Vince. Meanwhile, Todd White has outscored Havlat each of the last two years and he only makes $1 million. Bonk, Hossa and Alfredsson are whole other story in terms of comparing production. Havlat simply isn't there yet.

If Havlat and his agent will sign a long-term deal for a bit less than what Hossa signed for (Hossa had produced more coming out of his rookie deal), then that is one thing. But to ask for a one year deal which is triple last year salary without offering anyhting back in terms of signing long-term...well, enjoy the Europe.

V for Voodoo

10-09-2003, 06:16 PM

Some examples of players that are of Havlat's calibre (or worse):
Drury gets $3.5M
Sami Kapanen 3.0
Deadmarsh 3.0
Valeri Bure 3.1
Radek Bonk 3.5
Friesen 3.0
Michael Nylander 2.7
Daymond Langkow 2.7

And he's clearly better than the following players(and thus deserves more):
Mike York 2.0
Zednik 2.0
Langenbrunner 2.1
Sturm 2.0
Marleau 2.4

Btw, Samsonov just got 3.7 M, and you're suggesting Havlat should earn less than half of that...

I repeat: anything under 2M is a joke. A player who is projected to get 30 + 40 = 70 points in 82 games deserves $3M.

OK, So now you've moved onto comparing Havlat to players who are not only far advanced in terms of the amounts of contracts they have signed in their careers, but who arent even close to being in his age group. This argument wont even hold water in arbitration.

Do you consider every single top 2 line player underpaid because holik makes $9 million?

Havlat: 22
Drury: 27
Kapanen: 29
Deadmarsh: 28
Bure: 29
Bonk: 27
Friesen: 28
Nylander: 31
Langkow: 28

and

York: 24
Zednik:27
Langenbrunner: 28
Sturm:25
Marleau:24

It is clear that you do not know how the CBA, or NHL contracts work, your arguments are a joke, to put it nicely.

loadie

10-09-2003, 07:46 PM

Here's my take on this little episode;

1. The CBA basically threw out any bargaining power of younger players and gave it to the older players. Players like Havlat only need to be offered a 10% increase for the team to hold his rights. It a tool that a team has inorder to keep salaries in check, and Havlat's only option is to sit out. You know what? Too bad...when were you offered a 10% pay raise lately? Yeah...not to recently I'm sure.
2. The major problem of all of this is letting the players salaries be known. What happens is player's egos start to feel hurt if someone around their age/skill level gets more than them. Do you think Havlat and Gaborik would be asking for Richards type money if they didn't know what it was? Whaaaaaa...Brad makes more than me....and I'm just as good as he is...Whaaaaaa!! Hopefully salaries will be hidden from everyone in the next CBA. I'm just a little tired of some 21 year old complaining about money when they make more in one year than most people make in 20+ years. If your as good as you think you are, you'll eventually get the big bucks...thats the way the system is..if you don't like it, try selling sofas at the Brick....plumbling...driving...garbage pick-up...milking a goat....I'm sure your puny little 1 mil salary will look damn good in short order. :rant:
Damn...I better lay down and rest...maybe take in a hockey game on TV...no wait...I better get my son outside practicing hockey...Daddy needs a new house. :p

degroat*

10-10-2003, 03:49 AM

Havlat is looking for a contract for 1.95 mill and Ottawa is offering 1.35 mill.

If Havlat holds out for the first 25 games of the season, the Sens can offer him the $1.95M he's asking for and all he'll earn is the $1.35M that they're offering.

degroat*

10-10-2003, 03:51 AM

officeglen

10-10-2003, 04:10 AM

Some examples of players that are of Havlat's calibre (or worse):
Drury gets $3.5M
Sami Kapanen 3.0
Deadmarsh 3.0
Valeri Bure 3.1
Radek Bonk 3.5
Friesen 3.0
Michael Nylander 2.7
Daymond Langkow 2.7

And he's clearly better than the following players(and thus deserves more):
Mike York 2.0
Zednik 2.0
Langenbrunner 2.1
Sturm 2.0
Marleau 2.4

Btw, Samsonov just got 3.7 M, and you're suggesting Havlat should earn less than half of that...

I repeat: anything under 2M is a joke. A player who is projected to get 30 + 40 = 70 points in 82 games deserves $3M.

This post shows little understanding of NHL economics, using players who are in different contract situations. For example you could research how Bonk got his current contract, and determine why Havlat cannot do the same thing - don't bother posting any more on what players should get until you understand this.

Havlat:
67gp 24g 35a 59pts +20

Best comparison is Alex Tanguay:
82gp 26g 41a 67pts +34 $1.5M one year contract, plus performance bonuses.

See: NHLPA's Alex Tanguay (http://www.nhlpa.com/Content/THE_PLAYERS/player_bio1.asp?ID=6713)