Why the Leafs will win the Cup

I'm not going to promise or gaurantee that the Leafs will win the Cup. But I am picking them to win it this year.

I'm just tired of reading all the negativity surrounding the Leafs while all the other contending teams seemingly can do no wrong. This is my way of counter-acting that negativity.

Here's my very early take on the Stanley Cup race.

EASTERN CONFERENCE

Ottawa
People constantly say that this is a team with no weaknesses. Why? They have two major holes. Number one center and goaltending.

Spezza will be good this year and some day will be a great first line center. Is he good enough right now to be the #1 center on a Championship team? No. That means Ottawa is going to have to rely on guys like Bonk to be be the go-to guy in the playoffs. They've been there and done that and it hasn't worked yet.

Lalime is a good goalie. But I don't think he's good enough to win the Cup though. It takes a special goalie to win the Stanley Cup. Just look at recent history. Like I said, he's a good goalie, but he's nothing special.

New Jersey
They are the team to beat once again. They've got a good defense and the best goalie in the league

But they'll have their problems. Joe Nieuwendyk helped them recover from the loss of Holik. But what do they do now that they've lost Nieuwendyk? They won't find a player to replace what Holik and Nieuwendyk brought to this team.

Scott Stevens has been an integral part of their Cup wins, but he's starting to slow down. They can't rely on him to win playoffs series anymore.

Philadelphia
Good depth at forward and defence, but can a team with Jeff Hackett in net win a Stanley Cup? Honestly....

Tampa Bay
Some people say they have a better shot than the Leafs. What does Tampa have that the Leafs don't?

TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS
They've got a forward group that can match any team in the league. Most other contenders would be doing flips if they got a guy like Nieuwendyk to center their 2nd or 3rd line.

They've got an elite goaltender. Look around the league and see how many other goalies own Stanley Cup rings. People seem to underestimate how important this is.

Their defence is under-rated. McCabe was on the verge of getting Norris consideration two years ago and Kaberle was last year. Factor in veteran additions like Klee and Marchment and that's pretty good depth 1-6.



WESTERN CONFERENCE

Detroit
This team made a boneheaded move in the offseason. They let Fedorov get away but signed Hatcher.

The reason they lost to Anaheim was that they couldn't score! They already had a Norris calibre defenceman, they didn't need another one. They needed to keep Fedorov.

They've had Yzerman as the #1 guy for over a decade and now that he can't do the job, Fedorov could have easily replaced Yzerman's role on the team. Now they're counting on Datsyuk. He's a good young player, but he won't come close to filling Yzerman and Fedorov's shoes this year.

And how will Hatcher's signing affect team chemistry? Guy's like Schneider, Lidstrom and Chelios aren't going to respond well to diminished roles.

Colorado
Everyone talks about their top-six forwards.

It's no big deal. With the signings of Selanne and Kariya you can expect guys like Tanguay and Hejduk to take a major step back this year. Simple as that.

Plus Colorado's 3rd and 4th lines are full of fringe players. Depth on defence? As far as I know, Martin Skoula, Karlis Skrastins and Chris McCallister round out their top 6.

Oh, and they basically have a rookie coach and goaltending that is way below average. Is this a recipe for a Stanley Cup?

Dallas
This is a team that lost a guy who was their Captain, #1 defenceman and not too mention a Norris Trophy candidate. Then lost Darryl Sydor as well. And Leaf fans complain about losing Svehla.

St. Louis
They'll be a tough team again this year. But can they win the Cup with their current goaltending situation?

I'm not going to promise or gaurantee that the Leafs will win the Cup. But I am picking them to win it this year.

I'm just tired of reading all the negativity surrounding the Leafs while all the other contending teams seemingly can do no wrong. This is my way of counter-acting that negativity.

Here's my very early take on the Stanley Cup race.

EASTERN CONFERENCE

Ottawa
People constantly say that this is a team with no weaknesses. Why? They have two major holes. Number one center and goaltending.

Spezza will be good this year and some day will be a great first line center. Is he good enough right now to be the #1 center on a Championship team? No. That means Ottawa is going to have to rely on guys like Bonk to be be the go-to guy in the playoffs. They've been there and done that and it hasn't worked yet.

Lalime is a good goalie. But I don't think he's good enough to win the Cup though. It takes a special goalie to win the Stanley Cup. Just look at recent history. Like I said, he's a good goalie, but he's nothing special.



You really don't need great Centers to win the cup - NJ proved that. Their weakness is on the left side moreso than down the middle. As for Lalime, well, even Brodeur, Belfour and Roy had to prove themselves at one point as well. Lalime is a top 10 goalie in this league - easy. Definate cup calibre.



New Jersey
They are the team to beat once again. They've got a good defense and the best goalie in the league

But they'll have their problems. Joe Nieuwendyk helped them recover from the loss of Holik. But what do they do now that they've lost Nieuwendyk? They won't find a player to replace what Holik and Nieuwendyk brought to this team.

Scott Stevens has been an integral part of their Cup wins, but he's starting to slow down. They can't rely on him to win playoffs series anymore.



No disagreements....but never count them out.


Philadelphia
Good depth at forward and defence, but can a team with Jeff Hackett in net win a Stanley Cup? Honestly....



I would say yes. Look at the coach, look at the system they have. They might have gone all the way last year if they weren't worn out from the Leafs series.


Tampa Bay
Some people say they have a better shot than the Leafs. What does Tampa have that the Leafs don't?



They won't win the cup.



TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS
They've got a forward group that can match any team in the league. Most other contenders would be doing flips if they got a guy like Nieuwendyk to center their 2nd or 3rd line.

They've got an elite goaltender. Look around the league and see how many other goalies own Stanley Cup rings. People seem to underestimate how important this is.

Their defence is under-rated. McCabe was on the verge of getting Norris consideration two years ago and Kaberle was last year. Factor in veteran additions like Klee and Marchment and that's pretty good depth 1-6.



Our 5-6 guys are as good as any in the league. Our top end guys are not. Factoring in our defensive system (or lack thereof), we are still ways away.

A familiar scenario in which a partisan overrates the desiccated Leafs and underrates everyone else.

The Lightning have speed, something Toronto can't brag about. They have YOUNG forwards who can score. They have Khabibulin. They have more discipline than the Leafs, who live in the penalty box. They just might have a better coach.

The Devils have an even better goaltender and they have a SYSTEM.

The Senators have a plethora of talented forwards, defenders like Redden, Chara, and Phillips who are superior to the best on the Leafs, and they have a better coach.

I won't even bother to discuss the best of the west.

I seriously don't think we should be using the Lightning as a benchmark for how successful we're going to be. The Leafs playing average hockey is about what you'd expect out of Tampa's best. They have some great young forwards like Lecavalier, Richards, St. Louis, but we have an entire army of capable veteran forwards. For all our defensive problems, theirs isn't better, its worse. Goaltending is about even.

Toronto won't win the cup unless we some how manage to avoid playing Ottawa, New Jersey or Philadelphia in the east, and we end up facing a team like Anaheim in the finals.

You should post this on the main board and share the humour with others!!

You really don't need great Centers to win the cup - NJ proved that. Their weakness is on the left side moreso than down the middle. As for Lalime, well, even Brodeur, Belfour and Roy had to prove themselves at one point as well. Lalime is a top 10 goalie in this league - easy. Definate cup calibre.

I respectfully disagree. You do need a great, proven center to win the Cup. Look at the past few years.

Year....Team............Top Center(s).......Experience
02/03- New Jersey.......Nieuwendyk..........Won Cup in '89 and '99
01/02- Detroit.............Yzerman/Fedorov...Won Cup in '98 and '97
00/01- Colorado...........Sakic/ Forsberg.....Won Cup in '96
99/00- New Jersey........Holik...................Won Cup in '95
98/99- Dallas...............Modano/Nieuwy.....Won Cup in '89 (Nieuy)
97/98- Detroit..............Yzerman/Fedorov...Won Cup in '97
96/97- Detroit..............Yzerman/Fedorov...Finalists in '95
95/96- Colorado............Sakic/ Forsberg.....First Cup appearance
94/95- New Jersey........Neal Broten...........Finalist in '91
93/94- NY Rangers........Mark Messier.........Won Cup 5 times
92/93- Montreal............Kirk Muller.............First Cup appearance
91/92- Pittsburgh..........Mario Lemieux.......Won Cup in '91
90/91- Pittsburgh..........Mario Lemieux........First Cup appearance

The same can be said for goaltending as well. Look at this list and tell me that Lalime is "definately" Cup calibre.

Year....Team............Goaltender..........Experi ence
02/03- New Jersey........Martin Brodeur......Won Cup in '95 and '00
01/02- Detroit..............Dominik Hasek.......Won Olympics
00/01- Colorado............Patrick Roy..........Won Cup in '86 and '01
99/00- New Jersey........Martin Brodeur......Won Cup in '95
98/99- Dallas...............Ed Belfour.............Finalist in '92
97/98- Detroit..............Chris Osgoode.......Won Cup in '97
96/97- Detroit..............Mike Vernon..........Won Cup in '89
95/96- Colorado............Patrick Roy...........Won Cup in '86
94/95- New Jersey........Martin Brodeur.......Rookie
93/94- NY Rangers........Mike Richter..........First Cup appearance
92/93- Montreal............Patrick Roy...........Won Cup in '86
91/92- Pittsburgh..........Tom Barasso.........Won Cup in '91
90/91- Pittsburgh..........Tom Barasso.........First Cup appearance

The Leafs have the experienced forwards in Nieuwendyk, Sundin, Roberts and Mogilny. And they have the goaltender in Belfour. That's what makes them legitimate Cup contenders.

If we`re only counting teams with goalies that have Cup rings then we might as well only talk about Toronto, New Jersey, and Detroit. Every goalie thats going to win the Cup, has to win it for the first time.

It makes sense to say that guys like Aebisher or Turco are "unproven" in the playoffs, but you can't say that they're teams are going to do bad for that reason.

I would think of Aebisher as a guy like Broduer in '94 with an opportunity to proove himself, and not like Cechmanek, who has shown that he won't have success in the playoffs.

I'm not going to promise or gaurantee that the Leafs will win the Cup. But I am picking them to win it this year.

I'm just tired of reading all the negativity surrounding the Leafs while all the other contending teams seemingly can do no wrong. This is my way of counter-acting that negativity.

I think that many people are picking apart the apparent frontrunners.

Lalime is a good goalie. But I don't think he's good enough to win the Cup though. It takes a special goalie to win the Stanley Cup. Just look at recent history. Like I said, he's a good goalie, but he's nothing special.

I know that Vernon and Osgood still strike fear into the hearts of NHL forwards.

Scott Stevens has been an integral part of their Cup wins, but he's starting to slow down. They can't rely on him to win playoffs series anymore.

What happened to Stevens? Did he get injured? I haven't seen the one game that Jersey has played this year but I guess he must have stunk it up big time.



Tampa Bay
Some people say they have a better shot than the Leafs. What does Tampa have that the Leafs don't?

Suggestion: next time you hear someone mention Tampa Bay and Stanley Cup in the same sentence again, tell them that crack kills.

Their defence is under-rated. McCabe was on the verge of getting Norris consideration two years ago and Kaberle was last year. Factor in veteran additions like Klee and Marchment and that's pretty good depth 1-6.

If "on the verge" means "not considering Zubov, McInnis, Chara, Norstrom, Foote, (ad infinitum)" I could agree with you, but otherwise, no.


This team made a boneheaded move in the offseason. They let Fedorov get away but signed Hatcher.

The reason they lost to Anaheim was that they couldn't score! They already had a Norris calibre defenceman, they didn't need another one. They needed to keep Fedorov.

They've had Yzerman as the #1 guy for over a decade and now that he can't do the job, Fedorov could have easily replaced Yzerman's role on the team. Now they're counting on Datsyuk. He's a good young player, but he won't come close to filling Yzerman and Fedorov's shoes this year.

And how will Hatcher's signing affect team chemistry? Guy's like Schneider, Lidstrom and Chelios aren't going to respond well to diminished roles.

Wow! I'm actually in agreement here.

Toronto won't win the cup unless we some how manage to avoid playing Ottawa, New Jersey or Philadelphia in the east, and we end up facing a team like Anaheim in the finals.

Thats is 100 % correct... and we know the odds of that happening don't we, but those are my feeling's exactly ...unless MAJOR upsets happen and Toronto only has to go through Washington, Carolina and Buffalo in the East before taking on Minny or Anaheim will they have a chance at the cup this year and ..

Thats if Toronto's old Dinosaurs stay healthy...Which they never are and Belfour wins the Conn Smyth Trophy as Playoff MVP...

This team has very little chance at a Cup this year and after the mass retirement after the Lockout..the future does not look so bright either..

Leaf Fans WE are in for a LONG wait IMO....

All things considered I put Leafs chances at about 15 % of winning the cup, and that may even require more Luck than skill to happen...

OLD, HIGHLY PAID

It's not just the penalty thing.

The Leafs represent precisely what fans hated so deeply in Murphy. They are old and they are highly paid. There is something galling in watching a team composed of players who are on the downslope while you pay a ticket price that would make a Pharaoh gulp.

But it's the possibility of a work stoppage that provides the wick to the powderkeg.

Fans are mad enough that the game is going to blow itself up, but a year-long walkout or lockout would trigger the mother of all rebuilding programs here in Hockey Central.

The Leafs have two bona-fide talents who figure to be better in three years, Tomas Kaberle and Nik Antropov. That's it.

By the time play resumes, say in 2005, many of the players who skated for the Leafs last night will be playing canasta in Florida. Sundin would be 34.

Now or never rarely has been such an apt description of the Leafs' circumstances and the Leafs are winless after two games. This could get ugly soon.

Scott Gomez, Mike Rupp, John Madden, Sergei Brylin - That's what the Devils had in the post season for centers - Nieuwendyk didn't even play in the finals. Your statement about centers win championships is so wrong. Everybody know's it goaltending! Brodeur, Giguere - take them off their respective teams and both would not have been in the finals.

Basically what youre saying is Ruchinn, Pahlsson, Oates, Krog carried Anaheim to the finals. Ask anybody who followed the playoffs to the finals and they'll tell you it was only because of Giguere.

Your entire post is why Leaf fans get bashed for being homers, its people like you that give them a bad name.

You say Stevens has been an integral part of the team for years, but this year he won't because he's old. Last time I checked both are close to becoming 40. Whats saying Belfour won't slow down and Stevens remain a rock on defense?

You said contenders would be flipping over the possibility of getting Nieuwendyk in the offseason. There's a reason why he signed in late August; the contenders are set at the center position, he's 37 years old, and he's injury prone.

I would take Ottawa's forwards, defense, and goaltending any day before I would take Toronto's. Bonk plays a terrific 2 way game and is very good on the draws. Sundin is one of the more consistent forwards in the game and is good defensively and good on draws. Fact is Bonk is younger and cheaper. Spezza is probably the brightest face in the NHL right now. Hes a very talented playmaker and has very good scoring ability. He's learning the defensive part of the game and will one day be the best center in the game. Antropov is injury prone and has yet to have his breakout season, like everybody says he will for the last 3 years. Last year he was supposed to have it, but then the injury bug. What good is he gonna be if he only plays half the seasons? Kaberle, McCabe, Marchment, Kondratiev, Klee, Berg, Jackman compared to Redden, Chara, Phillips, Rachunek, Leschyshyn, Volchenkov, Hnidy. Ask any unbiased hockey fan and he will tell you without hesitation Ottawa's defense is superior to Toronto's. Same with goaltending, unbiased fans will say Lalime is definitely a top 10 goalie. Belfour might be too, but age is a factor this year. When you have a guy like Martin Havlat playing on your 3rd line, that speaks volume of what kind of depth a team has.

Hatcher, Lidstrom, Chelios
Blake, Foote, Morris
Jovanovski, Ohlund, Sopel
Redden, Chara, Phillips
Stevens, Niedermayer, Rafalski
Zubov, Numminen, Matvichuk
Jonsson, Hamrlik, Aucoin/Niinnimaa
Stuart, Rathje, McLaren,
Pronger, MacInnis, Jackman
Desjardins, Ragnarsson, Johnsson/Weinrich/Therien/Pitkanen

Any of these d-pairings are way better (Col, Dal, Det, NYI,etc.) and the others ones are just as good, or are as good, (Phil,Van, SJ, etc.) as the Leafs

Out of their top 6 forwards, Sundin is the only one who is not injury prone. Antropov, Nolan, Roberts, Mogilny, Renberg/Reichel get injured every season. The people who replace them are not 1st/2nd liners in the NHL simply put. Tucker at best is a 3rd liner, Domi at best 4th liner, Ponokarovski 3rd/4th liner, Stajan might become a 2nd liner.

All in all if you're expecting the Leafs to win the cup, well you're going to be very very disappointed for years to come.

The Leafs have the experienced forwards in Nieuwendyk, Sundin, Roberts and Mogilny.

2 of the 4 you mentioned are injured pretty often. Sundin has a habit of not showing up in the playoffs.

And they have the goaltender in Belfour.

That they do.

Belfour went on to make an incredible 72 saves including overtime gems

72 shots, do you remember what game that was? It was game 4 of the Flyers-Leafs series. No defense should allow that many shots or even the 30something shots that were allowed in 3 periods. You don't have a defense after Kaberle and McCabe. Marchment is just another goon. Klee is average at best. Tucker and Domi are penalty takers and so is Belak. There is no way in hell that the Leafs are winning the Cup anytime soon.

As far as the Flyers go, if everyone like Gagne, Willy, Zeus, Roenick, Amonte, Kap and even Leclair produce big numbers we might have a shot at the Cup. And we could probably improve our chances around the trade deadline by most likely dealing Seidenberg and Leclair for Cujo.

And another thing, Lalime was 1 goal short of possibly winning a cup. Lalime is maturing at the same time the entire Ottawa squad is maturing. A team has to gradually grow into a top calibre team, it doesn't happen overnight. Last year was a huge stride for the Sens and Lalime, this year they have one of the best chances in the East to make it to the finals. Saying he is not a playoff calibre goaltender is junk. If Rachunek would have take Friesen instead of committing to Redden's man, Lalime could very possibly be wearing a ring right now...But the fact is NJ is the defending champs.

1 other thing I'd like to point out is you cant base your judgements solely on past succes (i.e. Belfour - getting back to him) He won a cup, what 4 years ago? Well add 3-4 years to his age and signs of slowing down are pointing to this season!

Just to let you guys know big Joe missed the final 9 games of the playoffs last year (therefore I dont know how he helped us win the cup).

Sundin has a habit of not showing up in the playoffs.



Really? I would vehemently disagree.

Thats is 100 % correct... and we know the odds of that happening don't we, but those are my feeling's exactly ...unless MAJOR upsets happen and Toronto only has to go through Washington, Carolina and Buffalo in the East before taking on Minny or Anaheim will they have a chance at the cup this year and ..

Thats if Toronto's old Dinosaurs stay healthy...Which they never are and Belfour wins the Conn Smyth Trophy as Playoff MVP...

This team has very little chance at a Cup this year and after the mass retirement after the Lockout..the future does not look so bright either..

Leaf Fans WE are in for a LONG wait IMO....

All things considered I put Leafs chances at about 15 % of winning the cup, and that may even require more Luck than skill to happen...


Definitely agree.

Quite frankly I'm not even sure I consider us serious cup contenders this year.

Three words...

Defense wins Championships

And as of right now, this defense won't and the old, breaking down offense definitely isn't helping either.

Definitely agree.

Quite frankly I'm not even sure I consider us serious cup contenders this year.

Three words...

Defense wins Championships

And as of right now, this defense won't and the old, breaking down offense definitely isn't helping either.
FANS EXPECT A LOT: I'm afraid the real Leafs fans really don't want to be told the truth, but here goes anyway. Sports Illustrated ranks the Leafs way down in the pack in 13th place.

The rankings were compiled by Pierre McGuire, who knows a little bit about hockey. What he's saying it will be life and death for the Leafs to make the playoffs. A lot, of course, can change between now and the first week of April when post-season play starts.

Just maybe the fans who booed the Leafs off the ice Saturday night expected too much. If the Leafs are to move up, it'll be up to Ed Belfour, who's ranked sixth among the goalies. The man he replaced -- Curtis Joseph -- is 12th.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2003/10/14/225434.html

Put me among those that don't think Toronto has much of a chance at the cup.

Why the Leafs will win the Cup

Hey, with the looming armageddon set to be next year, there's no reason it can't occur this year.

Heater15 - you're right, all those teams you mentioned do have a better top end to their defense then the leafs, however the Leafs have just as good, if not better, defensive depth then those teams do. Kaberle, Klee, Jackman, Marchment, Berg and Kondratiev. If/when the Leafs add that top defenseman they need they will have a very solid defense in front of Belfour.

Hey, with the looming armageddon set to be next year, there's no reason it can't occur this year.


I didnt say that. Please if you're going to quote, do it correctly.

I'd love to see the leafs win the cup this season but I'm not going to get ahead of myself. It's still pretty early. I just don't know. We need better defence for one thing and these new leafs players have to get used to the team and the rest of the team has to get used to them. I think that's been the problem in the last two games-against the habs and caps-although the one against the caps was much better. We'll just have to wait and see how they do this season........

I'd love to see the leafs win the cup this season but I'm not going to get ahead of myself. It's still pretty early. I just don't know. We need better defence for one thing and these new leafs players have to get used to the team and the rest of the team has to get used to them. I think that's been the problem in the last two games-against the habs and caps-although the one against the caps was much better. We'll just have to wait and see how they do this season........

Are you ever in for a big disappointment. Get used to it until maybe 2067. At least in other cities the Stanley Cup comes around more often than Haley's Comet.

Well, you knew this thread would bring out the trolls.

:rolleyes:

Well, you knew this thread would bring out the trolls.

:rolleyes:

yet it doesnt deserve it half as much as the one where somebody is saying jackman has upside of jovo, is better than brewer, and will play for team canada within 3 years.i mean.. good lord

Well, you knew this thread would bring out the trolls.

:rolleyes:

That was never my intention of starting this thread. If you look back the very first line that I wrote said, "I'm not going to promise or gaurantee that the Leafs will win the Cup."

Of course the Leafs shouldn't be considered favourites. Of course there are a bunch of great teams in this league. I know that.

But I was tired of hearing so-called "Leaf Fans" trash the team on a daily basis and say they don't have a chance. The Leafs do have a legitimate chance and I proved that.

Leaf fans are quick to praise teams like the Wings, Flyers, Senators and Avalanche. I just wanted to show that these teams aren't exactly perfect either.

Some people out there have to realize what it means to be a fan of a team. Don't lower yourselves to the level of guys like Strachan, Simmons and Cox. It's certainly okay to criticize the team every now and then, but when everything you say is negative, you're nothing but a bandwagon fan.

Btw for the record, if the Leafs don't make it, my early pick for the Stanley Cup is New Jersey over St. Louis.

Dallas
This is a team that lost a guy who was their Captain, #1 defenceman and not too mention a Norris Trophy candidate. Then lost Darryl Sydor as well. And Leaf fans complain about losing Svehla.


Yet is still a far better team then the Toronto Maple Leafs..

Sorry but your team "reasoning" for all the contenders is pretty much wishful thinking. You only take out the negatives while strictly mentioning the positives for your little Leafs. The Leafs are a contender for the East but will not cause the big 3 of the West any trouble, save the Avs if they still have the Swiss miss. I do feel however, that the Leafs are a dangerous playoff team out East, probably 2nd behind the Devs and on par with the Flyers and Sens.

Ottawa
People constantly say that this is a team with no weaknesses. Why? They have two major holes. Number one center and goaltending.

Spezza will be good this year and some day will be a great first line center. Is he good enough right now to be the #1 center on a Championship team? No. That means Ottawa is going to have to rely on guys like Bonk to be be the go-to guy in the playoffs. They've been there and done that and it hasn't worked yet.

Lalime is a good goalie. But I don't think he's good enough to win the Cup though. It takes a special goalie to win the Stanley Cup. Just look at recent history. Like I said, he's a good goalie, but he's nothing special.


- A holes at center? Hello with Bonk, Spezza, White, Van Allen, Fisher and Smolinski the Sens are very deep at Center.

- Lalime was great in the playoff and sure is a top10 goalie in the NHL.

- You've seem to forgot about defense. Redden, Chara, Phillips, Rachunek and Volchenkov. One of the best defensive cors in the whole league.

- 3 first line RW on each line from 1-3.

- 3 first line RW on each line from 1-3.

Havlat isn't a first liner yet..

Leaf Army - Theres nothing wrong with being a Leaf fan and wanting them to win, but its stupid to ignore the Leafs weaknesses and only focus on other teams weaknesses and then claim the Leafs are favorites to win the cup. I'd love it if the Leafs did win the cup this year but the facts are that they probably won't. If you are going to point out other teams weaknesses then you should at least point out the Leafs weaknesses as well.

Belfour, at 38 probably won't have a year as good as he had last year. And yes he has a ring, from 4 years ago. They are missing a top defenseman (which pretty much every team whos won the cup in at least the last 10 years has had - Lidstrom, Hatcher, Leetch, Blake/Foote, Stevens). Their depth is good but they NEED a #1 guy. Their defense failed them last year in the playoffs and they havn't made any segnifigant upgrades. And so far their high priced, superstar fowards haven't been able to put the puck in the net. Plus staying healthy is again going to be a problem for the Leafs. In two games we've seen at leats 2-3 close calls and players walk off the ice in the middle of a game and had one injury. And they have trouble beating the trap, which a lot of top teams play.

That being said I think Belfour can still be good enough to back a cup winning team, though I think the number of games he can win on his own willbe lower. They can trade for that defenseman and it wouldn't susprise me if they do at some point this year. At least some of the fowards should wake up and start scoring, however if they don't do it soon it could cost them home ice advantage in the playoffs like a slow start did last year.

The Leafs are contenders, however they aren't favorites to win, at least not with the team they have now.

Leaf Army - Theres nothing wrong with being a Leaf fan and wanting them to win, but its stupid to ignore the Leafs weaknesses and only focus on other teams weaknesses and then claim the Leafs are favorites to win the cup. I'd love it if the Leafs did win the cup this year but the facts are that they probably won't. If you are going to point out other teams weaknesses then you should at least point out the Leafs weaknesses as well.

As I said before, I was specifically pointing out the weaknesses of the top teams. Everyone knows the Leafs aren't perfect, but I wanted to show that the other top teams aren't perfect either.

The Leafs are contenders, however they aren't favorites to win, at least not with the team they have now.

I never said the Leafs were favourites. I merely wanted to prove that they are legit contenders. Which they are.

The fact of the matter is, as long as Berg, Marchment or even Klee are in the top 4, we aren't going to win anything.

Toronto has to get a topnotch defenceman from somewhere before the playoffs start, or their chances of getting by Ottawa, Philly or Jersey (at least one of which we'll definitely be facing in the first/second round) aren't very good.

The Leafs have forwards and goaltending to match up with any of the big teams, East or West.

What they DON'T have is one of the top 2-way defencemen in the game on their blueline. No Blake, Foote, Jovanovski, Stevens, Pronger, etc. We could make do by getting a guy on the next tier down from that type of dman, like a Hamrlik or a Zhitnik, or a Niniimaa type.
You pair that guy with Kaberle. A solid top pairing. Then you pair McCabe with Pilar. A good second unit. Then you use Klee and Marchment on the bottom pairing. Again, solid (if a little slow, but hey, it's your 5 and 6 defencemen).

This is the only way the Leafs will have enough talent and depth to truly have a shot at making the Stanley Cup finals. There's other things that have to be done (discipline, getting their 5-man units used to each other), but that's only big difference I see between the Leafs and the other top teams.

- A holes at center? Hello with Bonk, Spezza, White, Van Allen, Fisher and Smolinski the Sens are very deep at Center.


Deep yes. But I would argue that at they moment they have no stand-out all-star calibre centremen (ie Modano, Federov, Sundin, etc). Bonk is a good two-way guy but not an elite talent and Spezza will be there soon but not yet.


- Lalime was great in the playoff and sure is a top10 goalie in the NHL.


Lalime is good and I'd be more than happy to have him as my goaltender. Good but not elite, nothing wrong with that.


- 3 first line RW on each line from 1-3.

As has been said, I wouldnt consider Havlat a 1st liner, yet.

Let's be honest, Ottawa has a much better chance at the Cup this year than Toronto does. Every team has it's weaknesses though.

The Leafs have a legit chance, but not a very good one, realisticly.

Since you pointed out everyone elses strengths I'll point out their strengths. To get a good, real idea of where the Leafs stand you can't just look at a teams weaknesses.

Senators
No they don't have a Forsberg or Sundin at center, but they didn't last year either and won the presidents trophy came one goal away from going to the finals the Devils didn't have that player in last years final and they won. The Senators centers are very good at winning faceoffs, all their centers were over 45% last year, White lead the team with 50.5%. And when they don't win they are good enough on defense to cause a lot of turn overs.

Laime may not be the next Roy but he last longer then any other goalie who's won a cup before (except Brodour of course) and came within one goal of going to the cup finals. The guy has gotten better every year, no reason to believe he won't once again get better then last year.

Devils
Yes the center position is a question for them, but so far they doing good with the guys they have. And like the Senators they good enough defensivly to cause turn overs when they don't win the faceoffs. They didn't have Nieuwendyk for the finals and still won. Plus they can always sign someone like Oates whos an UFA, and there are rumors that they are after Comrie.

Stevens is only one year older then Belfour, why would he slow down enough to not help them win a cup but not Belfour? Stevens played very well in last years playoff run and hasn't shown a huge degrading in skills so far this year. They also have 3 very, very good defensive prospects coming up this year. Their fowards are some of the best defensive fowards in the league, and when it comes to unit probably the best.

Flyers
Not much to add, good offensive and defensive depth, but HUGE question between the pipes, they will either be very successful or have a terrible season, no inbetween for this team.

Lightning
You can't over look how well this team plays together and how close they are, that can help make up for talent short comings. They are a very fast team, which allows their fowards to attack very quickly and aggressively and get back on defense just as quickly. They also have very solid goal tending from Khabibulin.
interesting point - 3 years ago the Leafs almost traded for Lecavalier and two years ago tired to get Anderychuk back for their playoff run.

Wings
They have the best defense in the league with a top 5 of Lidstrom, Hatcher, Chelios, Fischer, Schneider. Those guys want to win again (for some of them its probably their last chance) and are professionals, they aren't going to start playing badly because they lose a little bit of ice time. All will be just as good as they always are. They lost some scoring but added a TON of defense.

Yes they lost Fedorov, but with Datysuk and Zetterberg coming up they could afford to lose him (though it would have been nice to keep him). Both Datysuk and Zetterberg have more points so far this season then Fedorov does. The wings also still have Hull, Shanahan, Holmstrom and added Whitney. Yzerman should still produce (though not the huge numbers he used to) and Jason Williams is also a very good, promising prospect. Their offense won't be hurt that much by Fedorov leaving.

Avs
They have one of (if not THE) best collections of top 6 fowards in the league. Selenna, Kariya and Sakic have already combined for 3 goals in two games. Heyduk (already has 2 goals) and Tanguay won't take a dip in production, not with Forsberg still setting both of them up. In 2 game s Tanguay is the only foward they have int he top 6 who doesn't have a pt per game. The rest of their offense needs to be more worried about defense then offense, and only 2 of 6 have a - rating.

They are giving Aebischer a shotat the starting position (and hes is by no means a below average, 23 year old goalie) and if he can't cut it they WILL add a goalie who can before the deadline. They also have one of the best top end defense collections in the league.

Stars
Don't forget that they added Teppo Numminen, which will help them on defense. The Stars fowardsds, like the Devils, are very good at getting back and helping out on defense as well as being very good offensivly. They also have one the best goalies in the league (probably the second best) in Turco.


PepNCheese - Klee is a solid #3-#4 guy, not a 5 or 6. They do need a top defenseman but when/if they get him they should pair him with McCabe. Put Kaberle and Klee together (let Kaberle play offensivly while Klee covers defense) and have Jackman and Marchment on the third pairing.

I hope the Leafs win it but I have a gut feeling when it comes to Ottawa..I'm predicting an Ottawa -St.Louis Stanley Cup finals.

Klee is a solid #3-#4 guy, not a 5 or 6.


On our current defence? Absolutely.

I don't know that Klee cracks the top 4 on any of the elite teams, though.

that the Leafs are a dangerous playoff team out East,

No denying that, I don't know how many injuries there have been from the series with the Flyers and the one with Islanders. The Leafs are very dangerous, bad for your health. :lol:

I'm not going to promise or gaurantee that the Leafs will win the Cup. But I am picking them to win it this year.

I'm just tired of reading all the negativity surrounding the Leafs while all the other contending teams seemingly can do no wrong. This is my way of counter-acting that negativity.

Here's my very early take on the Stanley Cup race.

EASTERN CONFERENCE

Ottawa
People constantly say that this is a team with no weaknesses. Why? They have two major holes. Number one center and goaltending.

Spezza will be good this year and some day will be a great first line center. Is he good enough right now to be the #1 center on a Championship team? No. That means Ottawa is going to have to rely on guys like Bonk to be be the go-to guy in the playoffs. They've been there and done that and it hasn't worked yet.

Lalime is a good goalie. But I don't think he's good enough to win the Cup though. It takes a special goalie to win the Stanley Cup. Just look at recent history. Like I said, he's a good goalie, but he's nothing special.

New Jersey
They are the team to beat once again. They've got a good defense and the best goalie in the league

But they'll have their problems. Joe Nieuwendyk helped them recover from the loss of Holik. But what do they do now that they've lost Nieuwendyk? They won't find a player to replace what Holik and Nieuwendyk brought to this team.

Scott Stevens has been an integral part of their Cup wins, but he's starting to slow down. They can't rely on him to win playoffs series anymore.

Philadelphia
Good depth at forward and defence, but can a team with Jeff Hackett in net win a Stanley Cup? Honestly....

Tampa Bay
Some people say they have a better shot than the Leafs. What does Tampa have that the Leafs don't?

TORONTO MAPLE LEAFS
They've got a forward group that can match any team in the league. Most other contenders would be doing flips if they got a guy like Nieuwendyk to center their 2nd or 3rd line.

They've got an elite goaltender. Look around the league and see how many other goalies own Stanley Cup rings. People seem to underestimate how important this is.

Their defence is under-rated. McCabe was on the verge of getting Norris consideration two years ago and Kaberle was last year. Factor in veteran additions like Klee and Marchment and that's pretty good depth 1-6.



WESTERN CONFERENCE

Detroit
This team made a boneheaded move in the offseason. They let Fedorov get away but signed Hatcher.

The reason they lost to Anaheim was that they couldn't score! They already had a Norris calibre defenceman, they didn't need another one. They needed to keep Fedorov.

They've had Yzerman as the #1 guy for over a decade and now that he can't do the job, Fedorov could have easily replaced Yzerman's role on the team. Now they're counting on Datsyuk. He's a good young player, but he won't come close to filling Yzerman and Fedorov's shoes this year.

And how will Hatcher's signing affect team chemistry? Guy's like Schneider, Lidstrom and Chelios aren't going to respond well to diminished roles.

Colorado
Everyone talks about their top-six forwards.

It's no big deal. With the signings of Selanne and Kariya you can expect guys like Tanguay and Hejduk to take a major step back this year. Simple as that.

Plus Colorado's 3rd and 4th lines are full of fringe players. Depth on defence? As far as I know, Martin Skoula, Karlis Skrastins and Chris McCallister round out their top 6.

Oh, and they basically have a rookie coach and goaltending that is way below average. Is this a recipe for a Stanley Cup?

Dallas
This is a team that lost a guy who was their Captain, #1 defenceman and not too mention a Norris Trophy candidate. Then lost Darryl Sydor as well. And Leaf fans complain about losing Svehla.

St. Louis
They'll be a tough team again this year. But can they win the Cup with their current goaltending situation?

If the Flyers beat the Leafs in a 7 game series with Chokemanek in nets they sure as hell can do it again with Hackett and Pitkanen on D.
Toronto is ont he verge of being finished. There is only so much Sundin and Mogilny can do. Nolan has been invisible since being traded to TO, Nieuwendyk is injury prone and will probably not even be healthy enough to make the playoffs, McCabe and Kaberle are great defenders but you cannot put Klee and Marchment as 3rd 4th guys. Letting go fo Travis Green was a mistake, he is a playoff warrior, those are the guys you have to hold on to. And if you think that TO has the best shot at winning the cup, try thinking about away to secure a spot in the playoffs first. Not to sound cruel, but that's the reality. A lot of teams inthe East are stepping up looking to claim spots, no one is secure anymore. This year it might take 95 points to clinch 8th seed.

Hackett is weaker in net then Cechmanek is, thats going to be a big weakness for the Flyers.

"Toronto is ont he verge of being finished. There is only so much Sundin and Mogilny can do. Nolan has been invisible since being traded to TO, Nieuwendyk is injury prone and will probably not even be healthy enough to make the playoffs, McCabe and Kaberle are great defenders but you cannot put Klee and Marchment as 3rd 4th guys. Letting go fo Travis Green was a mistake, he is a playoff warrior, those are the guys you have to hold on to. And if you think that TO has the best shot at winning the cup, try thinking about away to secure a spot in the playoffs first."

Nolan had 12 points in 13 games when he first came to the Leafs. So far this year (all 2 games of it) he hasn't been great. Its possible he'll be a flop all year but don't bet on it, he should once again get somewhere between 20-30 goals. Nieuwendyk played 80 games last year, and 81 the year before that. And once the playoffs start he'll be fine, Roberts heal is an issue, but Nieuwendyk will be fine. Marchment ISN'T the Leafs #4, hes their #5 and so far is playing about 15-16 minutes a game, Jackman and Kondratiev are the guys in that #4 role and so far both are doing fine. They do need a top defenseman, but their defensive depth is fine. Green was let go as "part of a bigger plan" (according to the GM). Probably to free up his contract money to bring in that defenseman they need at some point. And the Leafs have several "playoff warriors" still on the roster. The Leafs WILL make the playoffs, thats not an issue for them, how far they will go is.

Toronto is ont he verge of being finished.


A lot of people seem to say this. WHY are they "finished" at this particular time?

Can Toronto not get new players? Will they not be allowed to do this under the new CBA agreement or something?

In a similar vein, Philly has a lot of old players too. In fact I'd be willing to bet the average ages are pretty close between the two teams, if someone wants to look it up.

I don't hear anyone saying the Flyers are finished. What about St. Louis? Exact same average age as Toronto. Are they going into the tank as well, Teezax?

PepNCheese - I think after this season the Leafs will go into a small rebuilding period. They have a lot of young defensemen and a good young goalie, not really much point in getting replacments for them, doing that would only create a jam up. They could, and probably will, get some UFA fowards after the lockout.

Just look at where they will be in 2 years. Belfour gone, but Tellqvist ready to take over, maybe not at his "peak" but working up to it. Colaiacovo, Kondratiev, Bell, and Harrison will all be ready to play in the NHL with Kaberle and Jackman (I'm pretty sure they are the only d-men on contract after this year). They will be alittle light in the foward department, though I'm guessing Trapps staff is going to focusing on getting some good wingers and snipers over the next year or two in the draft they probably won't be ready for the 2005-2006 season. I could see them getting one or two UFA fowards, but not to many to give the young guys a chance to make the team and play in the NHL.

Hackett is weaker in net then Cechmanek is, thats going to be a big weakness for the Flyers.

How is he weaker in net? He sees the puck very well. He moves side to side very well. He's not flopping all over the ice like Cechmanek did. He can actually communicate to his defensemen since he can speak English. We have one of the top defenses in the league. If anything, that will not be a weakness it will be a strength.

Nolan had 12 points in 13 games when he first came to the Leafs. So far this year (all 2 games of it) he hasn't been great. Its possible he'll be a flop all year but don't bet on it, he should once again get somewhere between 20-30 goals.

He was virtually non-existent in the playoffs and he hasn't done anything since then. I doubt he will put up 20 goals this year, with all his so-called injuries, he will be out half the season.

The Leafs WILL make the playoffs, thats not an issue for them, how far they will go is.

I'm not too sure about that. They have an old offense. Niewy is a year older, he gets injured easily which you can really apply to the rest of your team as well. A team like the Sabres or the Thrashers might be taking your spot this year.

They do need a top defenseman, but their defensive depth is fine.

Your defense has more holes than swiss cheese

I mean it's only a few games into the system and you already have guys on the injured list:

Injuries

G. Roberts LW Oct 13, 2003 Day-to-Day Broken Blood Vessel In Arm
A. Mogilny RW Oct 13, 2003 Day-to-Day Strained Groin
R. Reichel C Oct 13, 2003 Day-to-Day Back
T. Fitzgerald RW Oct 6, 2003 Injured Reserve Shoulder

I won't be surprised if you guys don't make the playoffs this year.

How is he weaker in net? He sees the puck very well. He moves side to side very well. He's not flopping all over the ice like Cechmanek did. He can actually communicate to his defensemen since he can speak English. We have one of the top defenses in the league. If anything, that will not be a weakness it will be a strength.


Im sorry but this is just too funny. It was only 6 months ago that Flyer fans would tell anyone that listened about how great Cechmanek was and how he had one of highest save percentages in the NHL since he arrived. Hackett was "just a backup". Oh, but now that Cechmanek is gone and Hackett is the starter, Hacket is of course just as good if not better.

The Flyers will make the playoffs, but their goaltending won't be as good as it was last year.

How is he weaker in net? He sees the puck very well. He moves side to side very well. He's not flopping all over the ice like Cechmanek did. He can actually communicate to his defensemen since he can speak English. We have one of the top defenses in the league. If anything, that will not be a weakness it will be a strength.

Goaltending will be your weakness...again. Hackett's played a combined 70 games the last 3 seasons. This guy's gonna be your saviour? I think not.

He was virtually non-existent in the playoffs and he hasn't done anything since then. I doubt he will put up 20 goals this year, with all his so-called injuries, he will be out half the season.

Nolan plays at least 70 games every year and he had number of great scoring chances last game. He's thrown some big hits too. He'll be fine.


I'm not too sure about that. They have an old offense. Niewy is a year older, he gets injured easily which you can really apply to the rest of your team as well. A team like the Sabres or the Thrashers might be taking your spot this year.

Even if the Sabres and Thrashers both pass us this year (which they obviously won't) that still puts us in 7th place. The Leafs will make the playoffs. Take it to the bank.

I mean it's only a few games into the system and you already have guys on the injured list:

Injuries

G. Roberts LW Oct 13, 2003 Day-to-Day Broken Blood Vessel In Arm
A. Mogilny RW Oct 13, 2003 Day-to-Day Strained Groin
R. Reichel C Oct 13, 2003 Day-to-Day Back
T. Fitzgerald RW Oct 6, 2003 Injured Reserve Shoulder


Nice try. As far as I know, Roberts and Reichel aren't expected to miss any games and Fitzgerald is already back.

Mogilny could be back next week.

Goaltending will be your weakness...again. Hackett's played a combined 70 games the last 3 seasons. This guy's gonna be your saviour? I think not.

I didn't say he would be our savior and he isn't by any means. He's better than the flopper Cechmanek. Our defense will be taking good care of him. As they already have when he had the shutout to start out the season. Have the Leafs won yet? Didn't think so. Even if Hackett doesn't pan out, we can always send Leclair, Seidenberg and a pick up to Detroit for Cujo and then we would be your worst nightmare.

Nolan plays at least 70 games every year and he had number of great scoring chances last game. He's thrown some big hits too. He'll be fine.

I haven't heard him being mentioned at all so far this season. In fact, I've only heard of injuries, penalties, and losses.

Even if the Sabres and Thrashers both pass us this year (which they obviously won't) that still puts us in 7th place. The Leafs will make the playoffs. Take it to the bank.

Let's see, this is probably what the East will look like:

Ottawa
Philly
Tampa Bay
New Jersey
Boston
Washington
New York Islanders
Sabres/Thrashers/Rangers/Canes/Canadiens

I don't see TOR making it.

Nice try.

Are you serious? Your team name could easily be changed to the Toronto walking wounded with all the injuries your guys suffer and you just picked up another guy in Joe N. with all his problems.

Im sorry but this is just too funny. It was only 6 months ago that Flyer fans would tell anyone that listened about how great Cechmanek was and how he had one of highest save percentages in the NHL since he arrived. Hackett was "just a backup". Oh, but now that Cechmanek is gone and Hackett is the starter, Hacket is of course just as good if not better.

I don't think he is better, of course not. I do think he is a good goalie and in the past Hackett has not played with a good team like the Flyers.
You don't worry about him flopping around in the goal crease. You don't worry about the whining or the easy goals getting by. Watching him play is a less strenous time than watching Cechmanek play. Yeah, Cecho did a great job letting in Yzerman's goal with 2 seconds left to go. All he had to do was save that easy goal and his team could have at least got a point but no he folded. I'll stick with Hackett and Esche for now especially since we have Malek and Nittymaki on the Phantoms.
No worries here.

Let's see, this is probably what the East will look like:

Ottawa
Philly
Tampa Bay
New Jersey
Boston
Washington
New York Islanders
Sabres/Thrashers/Rangers/Canes/Canadiens

I don't see TOR making it.

Thanks for the prediction. I'll remember this and talk to you again at the end of the season.

Thanks for the prediction. I'll remember this and talk to you again at the end of the season.


Cool, we will let you know how the playoffs go. Also, I can ask how 36 years of not having a cup feels or is it 37, I lose count. Yeah, the Flyers haven't won the Cup since 75, but at least we have won the division a few times.

Cool, we will let you know how the playoffs go. Also, I can ask how 36 years of not having a cup feels or is it 37, I lose count. Yeah, the Flyers haven't won the Cup since 75, but at least we have won the division a few times.

Yeah one of the downsides of Inbreeding is the diminshed IQ...stick with it though, counting isn't that difficult, you'll get the hang of it.

"Leclair, Seidenberg and a pick up to Detroit for Cujo "

You really think the Wings would take a broken down, old player like Leclair who doesn't produce anymore? And Seidenberg? Ya, thats just want the Wings need, more defense. The wings need a centerman, and thats what the Flyers would have to give up to get Cujo. With Hackett in net the Flyers are going nowhere.

"I haven't heard him being mentioned at all so far this season"

You mean all 2 games of it? I havn't heard Roenick, Gagne, or Amonte being mentioned this year yet either, I guess they aren't even going to score 20 goals either. And Nolans not injuried.

"Are you serious? Your team name could easily be changed to the Toronto walking wounded with all the injuries your guys suffer"

Last year Amonte played 72 games, Kapanen 71, Leclair 31, Gagne 46, Williams 41 - the Flyers aren't excatly a team build on strong, healty 80 game players. And the last two year Nieuwendyk has played 78+games

"You don't worry about him flopping around in the goal crease"

No you jsut worry about his carrer GAA of 2.93 and s% of .902

Also, I can ask how 36 years of not having a cup feels or is it 37, I lose count.

Yay, A+ for originality. :handclap:

Diceman, you are not.

Let's see, this is probably what the East will look like:

Ottawa
Philly
Tampa Bay
New Jersey
Boston
Washington
New York Islanders
Sabres/Thrashers/Rangers/Canes/Canadiens

I don't see TOR making it.



You'd rank Toronto 13th in the East?
Are you on drugs?

We've got the #2 goalie in the conference after Brodeur.
We've got one of the 3 or 4 top crews of forwards.
Our D is a bit weak, sure, but compared to these other teams?

Boston, with Potvin in net and three good forwards?
Washington, with a weaker D than we have?
Buffalo, with no scoring talent?
Atlanta, with...nothing?
NY Rangers, with the same problems as we have only moreso?
Carolina, last in the NHL last season and Weekes in net?
Montreal, with 8 rookies?

Go back to your own board, troll.

"Leclair, Seidenberg and a pick up to Detroit for Cujo "

You really think the Wings would take a broken down, old player like Leclair who doesn't produce anymore? And Seidenberg? Ya, thats just want the Wings need, more defense. The wings need a centerman, and thats what the Flyers would have to give up to get Cujo. With Hackett in net the Flyers are going nowhere.

"I haven't heard him being mentioned at all so far this season"

You mean all 2 games of it? I havn't heard Roenick, Gagne, or Amonte being mentioned this year yet either, I guess they aren't even going to score 20 goals either. And Nolans not injuried.

"Are you serious? Your team name could easily be changed to the Toronto walking wounded with all the injuries your guys suffer"

Last year Amonte played 72 games, Kapanen 71, Leclair 31, Gagne 46, Williams 41 - the Flyers aren't excatly a team build on strong, healty 80 game players. And the last two year Nieuwendyk has played 78+games

"You don't worry about him flopping around in the goal crease"

No you jsut worry about his carrer GAA of 2.93 and s% of .902

the big difference my firned is that we don't have to rely on our big name players to win games. Even with all these injuries we managed to finish with 107 points amongst the top 6 in the league. Imagine with a healthy roster. And to touch on Hackett a little bit, he will silence his critics. His number sare that bad because he played for bad defensive teams. San Jose (expansion) Chicago, Montreal Boston...now he goes to a team that allowed the fewest goals in the league, and what happens, he gets his first shutout in his first game as a Flyer. Tonight is his second game and i bet it will be just as good. He will have a career year
He is the perfect goaltender for our system, we don't need a Belfour or a Brodeur or a Hasdek becasue we have an amazing team defense that balances it out, all we need is a guy who can move from side to side, and make an occasional big save. Cechmanek is the only reason you guys made it to 7 game against us because it should have been over in 4.

I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but I will say that whoever started this thread underestimates every team, while overestimating his team. He talks down about the Avalanche forwards, while praising the Mapleleafs??? Nikolishin and Battaglia are fringe players???? Ottawa has a weakness at center??? OMG thats all they have is centers......and a weakness at goaltending???? Check Lalimes playoff stats, he is gold.... :rolleyes:

I didn't read all the posts in this thread, but I will say that whoever started this thread underestimates every team, while overestimating his team. He talks down about the Avalanche forwards, while praising the Mapleleafs??? Nikolishin and Battaglia are fringe players???? Ottawa has a weakness at center??? OMG thats all they have is centers......and a weakness at goaltending???? Check Lalimes playoff stats, he is gold.... :rolleyes:

I started this thread because I was tired of constantly reading reasons why the Leafs won't win the Cup.

I was tired of the negativity so I wanted to give reasons why the Leafs will win the Cup.

"the big difference my firned"

Whats a firned?

"is that we don't have to rely on our big name players to win games"

The Leafs are the deepest teams when it comes to fowards. Last year they had 12 players with 10 or more goals and 7 with 3 more GWG's. Flyers had 7. The year before that they were even better with depth scoring. This year with Roberts and Nieunwedyk and Antropov and Tucker probably (hopefully) having better seasons they will be back to the form they were 2 years ago. It helps to know what your talking about before you speak.

Even with all these injuries we managed to finish with 107 points amongst the top 6 in the league. Imagine with a healthy roster"

Healthy roster, Leclair is already hurt and will be out a lot longer then Mogilny will be. And Cechmanek has to be given a lot of credit for the Flyers success in the reg. season last year, and you replaced him a 35 year old back up. Good move.

"And to touch on Hackett a little bit, he will silence his critics"

Yes, we'll all be proven right.

You'd rank Toronto 13th in the East?
Are you on drugs?

Well, it depends how many injuries you have. A lot of your guys have a tendency to get injured. Belfour is a year older and he was your team last year in the playoffs.

Boston, with Potvin in net and three good forwards?
Washington, with a weaker D than we have?
Buffalo, with no scoring talent?
Atlanta, with...nothing?
NY Rangers, with the same problems as we have only moreso?
Carolina, last in the NHL last season and Weekes in net?
Montreal, with 8 rookies?


Boston --Has Felix and Raycroft (shut out the Stars last night) They also have Thornton, Rolston, Murray, Samsonov and rookie Bergeron and good defense with Boynton, Gill and O'Donnell.
Washington--They have a great goalie and a lot of scorers on that team.
They also have a Norris trophy candidate in Gonchar.
Buffalo--I didn't know Miro Satan, Briere, Dumont, Drury, and Afinegenov didn't count as scoring talent. They also have 3 good goalies.
Atlanta--They only have the desire to make the playoffs in memory of a lost teammate. They have Kovalchuk, Stefan, Savard and a good young goalie.
NYR---God forbid, they may actually pull it together this year. Holik,
Lindros, Nedved, Lundmark, Carter, Poti, Leetch (when he's back)
and Blackburn, Dunham and the goalie they got from EDM.
CAR--Has Ron Francis, Rod Brind 'Amour, rookie Eric Staal, Glen Wesley
who was smart to get out of Toronto. They have Weekes who did well even though the rest of the team didn't at the end of last year. They also have Jamie Storr. Vasicek, Cole, O'Neill, Hedican, Boughner, Markov...Shall I keep going?

These teams have a lot of hungry, young players that can fire the puck in the back of the net which the Leafs seem to have trouble doing so far.

Go back to your own board, troll.

Grow up, I mean really. You don't like hearing the truth but no need to resort to name calling. Moving on....

You really think the Wings would take a broken down, old player like Leclair who doesn't produce anymore? And Seidenberg? Ya, thats just want the Wings need, more defense. The wings need a centerman, and thats what the Flyers would have to give up to get Cujo. With Hackett in net the Flyers are going nowhere.

Well, there is always Somik and Chouinard up there for trade bait. I like Somik and Chouinard but I wouldn't be upset if they were gone. Chelios will be retiring soon, Hull and Yzerman. We have young talent that they could use so a trade between the Wings and us is not out of the question. As far Hackett goes, everyone badmouthed the guy before he played a game for the Flyers. We have one of the best blue line corps in the league and with them what did he do in his opening night? Right....got a shutout. He doesn't flop around like #32 did. If anything, our team will become more of an obvious contender for the Cup with Hackett solidifing his play. He can actually communicate with the defense, they know him and they are comfortable with him.

You mean all 2 games of it? I havn't heard Roenick, Gagne, or Amonte being mentioned this year yet either, I guess they aren't even going to score 20 goals either. And Nolans not injuried.

Nolan did nothing for the Leafs in the playoffs and I have not heard one mention of him at all. I guess you missed all the scoring chances Tony had in the Sabres game. Oh, and you want to know why you haven't heard Tony, JR and Gags not mentioned? It's because of this:

Justin Williams 1g 2a Donald Brashear 1g
Mark Recchi 1g 1a Michal Handzus 1g
Sami Kapanen 2a Claude Lapointe 1g
Eric, Joni and Preems all have 1 assist.

See, we don't just depend on JR, Tony and Gagne. We know they will score. Each guy from every line is chipping in. Toronto doesn't have that depth like us.

Last year Amonte played 72 games, Kapanen 71, Leclair 31, Gagne 46, Williams 41 - the Flyers aren't excatly a team build on strong, healty 80 game players. And the last two year Nieuwendyk has played 78+games

Amonte---got here with about 13 games left in the season :dunno:
Kapanen---Went through a slump. He's out of it.
Leclair--Got his shoulder crushed when a Pen sent him into the boards
and if that didn't happen he would have about 30 or so goals.
Gagne---Had two tears in his abdominal wall, that's fixed.
Williams---got his knee wrecked but came back to play a great series
against TOR.

But you should be watching out for Recchi, he is the one that burnt you like toast. Any one of our guys can pick up the scoring, Recchi, Zeus, Gagne, Williams, Roenick, Amonte, Primeau, Chouinard, Brash is good for 10-15 goals. Pitkanen, he's scary, how good he is. The powerplay is already so much better with him and Johnsson on it.

you jsut worry about his carrer GAA of 2.93 and s% of .902

Nah, the King fans will just have to worry about him letting it heartbreaking goals like the one he let in during the DET game. Solid in the regular season, comes apart in the postseason. He's still flopping all around.

The Leafs are the deepest teams when it comes to fowards. Last year they had 12 players with 10 or more goals and 7 with 3 more GWG's. Flyers had 7. The year before that they were even better with depth scoring. This year with Roberts and Nieunwedyk and Antropov and Tucker probably (hopefully) having better seasons they will be back to the form they were 2 years ago. It helps to know what your talking about before you speak.

Oh my goodness, I burst out laughing reading that one. The Leafs are one of the deepest teams when it comes to forwards? Are you for real?
Can you send out at least 5 lines in a game that will produce night in, night out? No, obviously not since you haven't won a game yet. We can do that. Look at all the guys who have been helping out with the offense on our team. You say you had more players who scored but where were they when we whipped in Game 7 of the series? Were they hiding? Roberts was playing, Nolan was playing, Sundin was playing, Almo was playing? If you are so deep, why didn't you beat us? Oh, wait, I know why, because you didn't score and your defense let in so many goals it was kind of sad. Roberts and Joe will be 37. Eddie is up there too. Tucker, Domi (i hear he is being shopped), Belak, Marchment are all penalty getters. You can't be serious saying you have a deep team? Not likely.

Due mostly to injuries, three years ago Hackett carried a Habs team consisting of not much more than medocre AHL players to within 2 points of a playoff berth. If Jeff could single-handedly bring that bunch of misfits that close to the play-offs, I'll bet he'll do just fine with Philly's talent in front of him.

Due mostly to injuries, three years ago Hackett carried a Habs team consisting of not much more than mediocre AHL players to within 2 points of a playoff berth. If Jeff could single-handedly bring that bunch of misfits that close to the playoffs, I'll bet he'll do just fine with Philly's talent in front of him.

He'll do better than fine. Thanks for the post.

Well, it depends how many injuries you have. A lot of your guys have a tendency to get injured. Belfour is a year older and he was your team last year in the playoffs.


Amonte---got here with about 13 games left in the season :dunno:
Kapanen---Went through a slump. He's out of it.
Leclair--Got his shoulder crushed when a Pen sent him into the boards
and if that didn't happen he would have about 30 or so goals.
Gagne---Had two tears in his abdominal wall, that's fixed.
Williams---got his knee wrecked but came back to play a great series
against TOR.



Ok now I get it. You're allowed to accuse the Leafs of being injury prone but when it's pointed out that the Flyers are too you're allowed to come up with a bunch of BS excuses. Belfour will be worse because he's older but Hackett will be better because he "doesn't flop around". The Flyers are deep in offense and the Leafs are not, even though they've been one of the league highest scoring teams the past half-decade. The Washington Capitals who have worse forwards, worse defencemen, and a worse coach than the Leafs will be higher than them in the standings because well, Im not really sure why but Im sure you'll come up with something. Donald Brashear is sure to score 10-15 goals even though he'll be 32 this year and he's scored 10 exactly once in his career to date. Owen Nolan will not score 20 goals this season because he was hurt last year and he hasnt scored in 2 games yet this year.

Sorry if I dont take your arguments seriously. Maybe you should look at some of your own double standards before criticizing anyone in here.

Well, it depends how many injuries you have. A lot of your guys have a tendency to get injured. Belfour is a year older and he was your team last year in the playoffs.

True...but what a team! We're not comparing Toronto to Philadelphia - I'd admit that overall Philly has a better team. I'm comparing Toronto to the rest of the conference.



Boston --Has Felix and Raycroft (shut out the Stars last night) They also have Thornton, Rolston, Murray, Samsonov and rookie Bergeron and good defense with Boynton, Gill and O'Donnell.

Ooh, Raycroft shut out the Stars last night? Give him the Vezina! You can't run down Cechmanek for his style of play and say Potvin is a PLUS for Boston. Bergeron is a random rookie, if he's in their top 5 guys they're in trouble. Of course, you left out Knuble and Lapointe but those are grinders.

Washington--They have a great goalie and a lot of scorers on that team.
They also have a Norris trophy candidate in Gonchar.

Gonchar, an offensive d-man...they also lost Klee and Johansson and replaced them with a rookie in Eminger and nobody else. Kolzig is great but he hasn't been elite since his one shining season, and aside from Jagr and Lang what great scorers do they have? Zubrus?

Buffalo--I didn't know Miro Satan, Briere, Dumont, Drury, and Afinegenov didn't count as scoring talent. They also have 3 good goalies.

They have ZERO proven goalies down the stretch. Mika Noronen? Please. Biron is decent and Miller has potential, but c'mon now. Afinogenov and Dumont have talent but haven't done squat...and Briere is hurt now.

Atlanta--They only have the desire to make the playoffs in memory of a lost teammate. They have Kovalchuk, Stefan, Savard and a good young goalie.

A good young goalie? Pasi Nurminen? He's the saviour? I don't think so. Stefan, Kovalchuk and Savard isn't gonna get them to the playoffs, dude, Snyder or not. Even WITH Heatley they don't make the playoffs, or come EVEN CLOSE. This could be the worst non-Pittsburgh team in the NHL.

NYR---God forbid, they may actually pull it together this year. Holik,
Lindros, Nedved, Lundmark, Carter, Poti, Leetch (when he's back)
and Blackburn, Dunham and the goalie they got from EDM.

Blackburn's in the minors. Lundmark has never done squat. Leetch is finished. Lindros is a shell. Poti can't play defence. I'll believe it when I see it. They're like the Leafs, only every year the Leafs finish with 90+ points and the Rangers miss the playoffs.

CAR--Has Ron Francis, Rod Brind 'Amour, rookie Eric Staal, Glen Wesley
who was smart to get out of Toronto. They have Weekes who did well even though the rest of the team didn't at the end of last year. They also have Jamie Storr. Vasicek, Cole, O'Neill, Hedican, Boughner, Markov...Shall I keep going?

They also have Jamie Storr? Why didn't you say so? They had all those players last year except Markov and Boughner and finished last in the East. What's so different this year? Francis and Brind'Amour are older?

These teams have a lot of hungry, young players that can fire the puck in the back of the net which the Leafs seem to have trouble doing so far.

The season is TWO GAMES OLD!!!!.

Grow up, I mean really. You don't like hearing the truth but no need to resort to name calling. Moving on....

I call a spade a spade and a troll a troll.

"Well, it depends how many injuries you have. A lot of your guys have a tendency to get injured."

Injuries can play a role for ANY team, and the Flyers also have a lot of players who get hurt a lot, look at last year.

"These teams have a lot of hungry, young players that can fire the puck in the back of the net which the Leafs seem to have trouble doing so far"

Oh, you NEED young players to win. Well I guess that means the Wings have no change of winning. Oh and in case you didn't notice the Flyers aren't excatly a team build on youth either.

"Well, there is always Somik and Chouinard up there for trade bait. I like Somik and Chouinard but I wouldn't be upset if they were gone. Chelios will be retiring soon, Hull and Yzerman. We have young talent that they could use so a trade between the Wings and us is not out of the question"

The Wings have a very strong development system and won't be hurting th at much when those guys retire. And dude, what you fail to realize is that by the time the Flyers realize that they need goal tending help other teams will as well. If someone like the Blues offer up Weight and the Flyers offer Somik and Chouinard who do you think will get Cujo. To get him the Flyers will have to give up a top 6 centerman. Whats the matter, don't like hearing the truth?

"Nolan did nothing for the Leafs in the playoffs and I have not heard one mention of him at all. I guess you missed all the scoring chances Tony had in the Sabres game. Oh, and you want to know why you haven't heard Tony, JR and Gags not mentioned? It's because of this"

How much Amonte do for the Flyers in the playoffs? And Nolan has had his share chances, just hasn't scored yet. I love it when Flyers fans get down on the leafs or a player when they have the same problem or one of their players do. And you said the Leafs top talent has produced yet, well neither has the Flyers. If they have to rely on Brasher for poitns its going to be a long season for the Flyers

"Can you send out at least 5 lines in a game that will produce night in, night out"

Well you only need to send out 4, and they have been playing with - Renberg/Sundin/Nolan, Roberts/Nieuwendyk/Tucker, Stajan/Antropov/Mogilny, Belak/Reichel/Domi - those top 3 lines can score just as well as any in the NHL. When you have 3 good, balanced scoring lines yes you have a very good offensive depth (hell, even the 4th line can score, though not as much). Every team has bad games, the Flyers mopped the floor with the FLyers twice in the playoffs. If you really knew anything about hockey you would know the Leafs do have on the deepest groups of fowards in the league.

[/quote]True...but what a team! We're not comparing Toronto to Philadelphia - I'd admit that overall Philly has a better team. I'm comparing Toronto to the rest of the conference.[/quote]

They don't stack up too good in my mind.


Ooh, Raycroft shut out the Stars last night? Give him the Vezina! You can't run down Cechmanek for his style of play and say Potvin is a PLUS for Boston. Bergeron is a random rookie, if he's in their top 5 guys they're in trouble. Of course, you left out Knuble and Lapointe but those are grinders.

Bergeron is a draft pick that made the team this year. Not saying Felix is a plus however the game I saw him play against the Devils, he looked good. Lapointe is hurt and I could have mentioned Knuble, sorry about that I was busy listing the other ones.



Gonchar, an offensive d-man...they also lost Klee and Johansson and replaced them with a rookie in Eminger and nobody else. Kolzig is great but he hasn't been elite since his one shining season, and aside from Jagr and Lang what great scorers do they have? Zubrus?

I guess Peter Bondra just disappeared from your memory along with Konawalchuk (sp?).

They have ZERO proven goalies down the stretch. Mika Noronen? Please. Biron is decent and Miller has potential, but c'mon now. Afinogenov and Dumont have talent but haven't done squat...and Briere is hurt now.

Wow, you really know your hockey, eh? Noronen is very good along with Biron and Miller was only the top goalie in whatever league he was in last year. Sorry, I don't pay attention too much to the Sabres. Afinegenov had a problems with concussions, all better now and Dumont still produced but had a bad year. Briere won't be hurt forever. That's the difference, other teams heal a lot faster than the Leafs.

A good young goalie? Pasi Nurminen? He's the saviour? I don't think so. Stefan, Kovalchuk and Savard isn't gonna get them to the playoffs, dude, Snyder or not. Even WITH Heatley they don't make the playoffs, or come EVEN CLOSE. This could be the worst non-Pittsburgh team in the NHL.

Also have a backup in Dafoe. Why exactly won't they make the playoffs? Because you say so? That team is poised to make the playoffs this year. I think it's the Leafs that are picked to take a dropoff this year. You really need to know more about hockey, more than just the Leafs because you aren't appearing very smart with your lack of hockey knowledge.


Blackburn's in the minors. Lundmark has never done squat. Leetch is finished. Lindros is a shell. Poti can't play defence. I'll believe it when I see it. They're like the Leafs, only every year the Leafs finish with 90+ points and the Rangers miss the playoffs.

Poti plays better defense than most of the guys on the Leafs. Lindros, he is done, yeah but is still good for 15-20 goals.



They also have Jamie Storr? Why didn't you say so? They had all those players last year except Markov and Boughner and finished last in the East. What's so different this year? Francis and Brind'Amour are older?

Again, not really looking too bright.. :joker:

I call a spade a spade and a troll a troll.

Really, doesn't your mother take offense to you calling her that?

Grow up. Talk hockey, leave the immaturity at home.

Grow up. Talk hockey, leave the immaturity at home.

...sigh.......:rolleyes:

These Flyerfans are hilarious.

The Flyers are right around the same average age as the Leafs, and have just as many if not more injury-prone players.

Plus they're trying to convince us, as usual, that Clarke's latest retread is a genuine playoff goalie. Don't you guys ever learn? Doesn't Clarkie ever learn?

Those pictures he's got of Snider with those goats and chickens are still coming in as handy as ever, it seems.

When is the last time that a 35 year old goalie who has never even made it past the 1st round ended up winning the Cup.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that in the history of the NHL that this has ever happened.

Is it just me or is Teezax's avatar a picture of Roenick attempting to hump Leclair? :dunno:

Bergeron is a draft pick that made the team this year. Not saying Felix is a plus however the game I saw him play against the Devils, he looked good. Lapointe is hurt and I could have mentioned Knuble, sorry about that I was busy listing the other ones.

Bergeron's a draft pick that made the team. Yes, I know that. Is he a better hockey player than, say, Robert Reichel? Is he better than Matt Stajan? Is he better than Tie Domi? No, no and no. So who cares?

I guess Peter Bondra just disappeared from your memory along with Konawalchuk (sp?).

Mea culpa, off the top of my head I forgot about Bondra. Konowalchuk is decent but nothing special. Certainly no sniper.

Wow, you really know your hockey, eh? Noronen is very good along with Biron and Miller was only the top goalie in whatever league he was in last year. Sorry, I don't pay attention too much to the Sabres. Afinegenov had a problems with concussions, all better now and Dumont still produced but had a bad year. Briere won't be hurt forever. That's the difference, other teams heal a lot faster than the Leafs.

You say I don't know my hockey and then go on to say Miller was the top goalie in "whatever league he was in"? Noronen played 19 games in the AHL and 16 in the NHL last year; I don't see him on the verge of being a star. Regardless, none of the three quite measures up to Ed Belfour at this stage, which is the comparison, right, since we're comparing all these teams to the Leafs?

Briere scored 24 goals last year, Satan 26, Dumont 14, Afinogenov 5 in 35 games - as a team, they had three 20-goal men (the other was Kotalik). They added Drury, who scored 23 (his career best is only 24). That's a better core than Sundin, Mogilny, Roberts, Nolan, Antropov and Nieuwendyk? I don't think so. Their D is still extremely young, and will miss Warrener terribly. They could contend for a playoff spot, sure, but they shouldn't be in the Leafs' territory.


Also have a backup in Dafoe. Why exactly won't they make the playoffs? Because you say so? That team is poised to make the playoffs this year. I think it's the Leafs that are picked to take a dropoff this year. You really need to know more about hockey, more than just the Leafs because you aren't appearing very smart with your lack of hockey knowledge.

Okay, why are they "poised" to make the playoffs? Because YOU say so? How can you possibly say this team is better than Toronto? Nurminen and Dafoe is one of the worst goaltending combinations in the NHL, and, again, Belfour wins big here. Their top defencemen are Andy Sutton, Yannick Tremblay, Frantisek Kaberle and Ivan Majesky. Not so hot. Without Heatley, they have no offence. Unless you're expecting huge contributions from Randy Robitaille, Ronald Petrovicky, JP Vigier and Kamil Piros, their entire offence is Kovalchuk, Stefan (career high of 34 points!!!), McEachern (10 goals in 46 gms last year), and Marc Savard (16 G in 57 G last year).

I find it hard to say that the inspiration of losing Snyder will make up for the absence of their best player for the entire season. Did Dmitri Tertyshny motivate the Flyers to the Cup?


Poti plays better defense than most of the guys on the Leafs. Lindros, he is done, yeah but is still good for 15-20 goals.

As I said - the Rangers have the same team that has missed the playoffs for the past several seasons. Saying "they're overdue" isn't really a hockey reason for projecting an improvement.

Really, doesn't your mother take offense to you calling her that?

Grow up. Talk hockey, leave the immaturity at home.

Calling you a troll isn't immature. Being a troll is immature...do you know what the term means? It's going onto other teams' boards and posting deliberately inflammatory stuff, as you're doing here. How you can contend that Atlanta and Carolina are going places while Toronto is going to finish at the bottom of the East with no real evidence to support your theory just makes you sound ever more stupid.

Sure the Leafs are better than the Lightning. A few people in Ontario believe they are. If the Leafs are fortunate enough to reach the playoffs and face the Lightning in the first round even fewer Ontarioans will believe it.

Bergeron's a draft pick that made the team. Yes, I know that. Is he a better hockey player than, say, Robert Reichel? Is he better than Matt Stajan? Is he better than Tie Domi? No, no and no. So who cares?

The kid probably is better than Reichel and Domi. What a joke mentioning Reichel, the stiff and Domi, the head goon.

Calling you a troll isn't immature. Being a troll is immature...do you know what the term means? It's going onto other teams' boards and posting deliberately inflammatory stuff, as you're doing here. How you can contend that Atlanta and Carolina are going places while Toronto is going to finish at the bottom of the East with no real evidence to support your theory just makes you sound ever more stupid.

Yeah, I know what the term means. I came here to dispense some reality that Toronto fans can never grasp. You will NOT win the Cup anytime soon, plain and simple. I do think the teams I mentioned have a lot of young players who are ready to help their teams make the playoffs. Toronto has not gotten better, they gotten older and just picked up more guys to take penalties and cause injuries. While alot of the good teams went out to improve their teams, you went out and got a guy who is turning 37 and injury prone and you got a goon in Marchment. Yeah, we have Hackett and we also have 4 young goalies in Esche, Malek, Little and Nittymaki. Teams like Colorado got Kariya and Selanne, Detroit has Hatcher, everyone improved while you guys seemed to make your situation worse. This is not being a troll. It's called talking hockey. The Leaf fans are so funny how they don't accept reality.

Am I saying the Flyers will win? No, not likely. Am I saying that I think a team like Carolina who did well 2 seasons ago and Atlanta who has a good group of guys will make the playoffs, yeah I am. I think the top teams in the East will be 1. Ottawa 2. Philly 3. Tampa 4. New Jersey 5. Washington 6. New York Islanders 7. Boston 8. Buffalo/Atlanta/Carolina/and the Leafs fighting for a spot. That's the way I see it. Sorry if you don't like that.

When is the last time that a 35 year old goalie who has never even made it past the 1st round ended up winning the Cup. I could be wrong, but I don't think that in the history of the NHL that this has ever happened.

*lol* Are you saying that because we have Hackett that we aren't going to make it past the 1st round. That's funny. So far he hasn't let in a goal yet. You're talking about guys like Desjardins, Johnsson, Weinrich, Ragnarrson, Vandermeer and Pitkanen for his defense. These guys were great last year and they are 10 times better with Pitkanen, the Calder trophy candidate. If anything, we will get past the first round and make it through the second round as well. It's a joke hearing you say that we won't make it past the first round...weren't you the ones that didn't make it past the first round last year? And to be real, I don't think anyone is beating the Sens this year from the East. Not us, not you guys for sure and not New Jersey. This is their year but the Flyers will give them a run for their money if we face them again.

These Flyerfans are hilarious.
The Flyers are right around the same average age as the Leafs, and have just as many if not more injury-prone players.
Plus they're trying to convince us, as usual, that Clarke's latest retread is a genuine playoff goalie. Don't you guys ever learn? Doesn't Clarkie ever learn?
Those pictures he's got of Snider with those goats and chickens are still coming in as handy as ever, it seems.

Not around the average age of the Loafs, I mean Leafs.
Ages (http://www.philadelphiaflyers.com/team/roster/rosterlist.asp)

Big John is old but I am not bragging about his skills in no way, shape or form. Recchi is up there but he still torched you guys last year. The guy is a playmaker. Rico (#37) is considered one of the top d-men in the league. Hackett, yeah he's 35 and we also have another goaltender who is 25 years old. Lapointe, is a great 3rd-4th line center who is a grinder and can play a physical game. Primeau is up there but still shut down your top man in Sundin. Weinrich, one of the most stable d-men we have. He is a mentor to guys like Vandermeer, Pitkanen, Woywitka and Seidenberg. All the rest of the guys are early 30s late 20s. Half of your roster will be gone after this season. Has Hackett ever played for a team like the Flyers? I think not. Montreal was sucking big time and had them within two points of a playoff spot. If he can do that with a bunch of scrubs, imagine how far he will go with a good team like the Flyers. Clarke made the smart decision in getting Jeff. CBA strike looming and all, it was smart to go with a cheaper, experienced goalie than a bigger price goalie in Cujo. So far, I am very pleased with Hackett's performance, no goals....you have to love that.

Have fun losing again in the playoffs.

*lol* Are you saying that because we have Hackett that we aren't going to make it past the 1st round. That's funny. So far he hasn't let in a goal yet. You're talking about guys like Desjardins, Johnsson, Weinrich, Ragnarrson, Vandermeer and Pitkanen for his defense. These guys were great last year and they are 10 times better with Pitkanen, the Calder trophy candidate. If anything, we will get past the first round and make it through the second round as well. It's a joke hearing you say that we won't make it past the first round...weren't you the ones that didn't make it past the first round last year?

Well you've already shown that you can't count and now you're proving you can't read either. I never said the Flyers wouldn't make it past the 1st round.

I'm going to post my statement again. This time read it slower. Or get a grown-up to help.

When is the last time that a 35 year old goalie who has never even made it past the 1st round ended up winning the Cup.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that in the history of the NHL that this has ever happened.

Hackett is 35 years old and has never won a playoff series before. Having trouble accepting reality?

Well you've already shown that you can't count and now you're proving you can't read either. I never said the Flyers wouldn't make it past the 1st round.

I'm going to post my statement again. This time read it slower. Or get a grown-up to help.

When is the last time that a 35 year old goalie who has never even made it past the 1st round ended up winning the Cup.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that in the history of the NHL that this has ever happened.

Hackett is 35 years old and has never won a playoff series before. Having trouble accepting reality?


Other than the Bruins last season, how many times did Hackett's team make the playoffs? I doubt S.J. did while he was there and I know the Habs didn't so I guess he must have made a couple of apperances with the Blackhawks?
Regardless, nowhere has Hackett played with the talent Philly puts in front of him, so I doubt his playoff woes will continue. Plus, as I remember, didn't Hackett play pretty well for boston last playoffs? As I recall it was Boston's lack of offense that sealed that series, not Hackett's lack of success.

Other than the Bruins last season, how many times did Hackett's team make the playoffs? I doubt S.J. did while he was there and I know the Habs didn't so I guess he must have made a couple of apperances with the Blackhawks?
Regardless, nowhere has Hackett played with the talent Philly puts in front of him, so I doubt his playoff woes will continue. Plus, as I remember, didn't Hackett play pretty well for boston last playoffs? As I recall it was Boston's lack of offense that sealed that series, not Hackett's lack of success.

The Bruins didn't lose just because of Hackett. They couldn't match up to the Devils. It's kind of like how the Leafs didn't match up with us.
Eddie was practically your team in the playoffs but he can't put the pucks in the net for you.

Hackett is 35 years old and has never won a playoff series before. Having trouble accepting reality?

Accept this reality:

#37, #5, #2, #23, #28, #44

The team, from top to bottom, follows closely one of the best defensive systems in the league. Strong veteran presence and talented youngsters at both forward and defensive positions.

It's from ESPN's NHL preview of the Flyers.

That's the reality I live with.

Is it just me or is Teezax's avatar a picture of Roenick attempting to hump Leclair? :dunno:

No actually it's a picture of Roenick celebrating with Leclair after the Flyers eliminated the Leafs in a final blowout for game 7. I don't recall the score but it was somehwere around 6-1. Oh wait it was 6-1.
Listen guys we're going to need all the fan support we can get, so when the Leaves fail to make the playoffs this year, feel free to watch us on the tube showing you the ropes of what a (keyword here) SYSTEM looks like.

Cool, we will let you know how the playoffs go. Also, I can ask how 36 years of not having a cup feels or is it 37, I lose count. Yeah, the Flyers haven't won the Cup since 75, but at least we have won the division a few times.

And don't forget to mention we came in the league in '67 and still managed to repeat in the early seventies and make trhe finals plenty of times since then.

No actually it's a picture of Roenick celebrating with Leclair after the Flyers eliminated the Leafs in a final blowout for game 7. I don't recall the score but it was somehwere around 6-1. Oh wait it was 6-1.
Listen guys we're going to need all the fan support we can get, so when the Leaves fail to make the playoffs this year, feel free to watch us on the tube showing you the ropes of what a (keyword here) SYSTEM looks like.

I'll be sure to have bWo avatars ready for you to sport. I won't make them too offensive. :D

I'll be sure to have bWo avatars ready for you to sport. I won't make them too offensive. :D

Just don't make them as confusing as yours. :dunno:

Just don't make them as confusing as yours. :dunno:

yeah and make sure you throw in a little guy on guy action, Flyer fans look like they're in to that.

All this talk about the Leafs not making the playoffs is rediculous. Belfour is still a very good goalie. Aside from New Jersey (obviously) and possibly Ottawa (Lalime vs. Belfour is a debate that isn't worth having), I can't see any team in the East with a better goalie. Yes, Belfour is going in the wrong direction, and Dipietro and whoever the Sabres settle on as their starter are going in the right direction, this season, Belfour is still a very good bet.

Personally, I don't see why Philadelphia is much better than the Leafs. You ask me, their forwards are close to a draw, the Leafs possibly having an edge. The Flyers defence is not as good as the numbers indicate, IMO. It is better than the Leafs, but Hitch plays a very defensive style, Quinn a more offensive style. Same reason the Leafs scored more goals, and I consider the two teams to have comparable talent and depth up front.

If defence goes to the Flyers, which it should, then goaltending goes to the Leafs, as it should. Esche is a very good back-up, but has proven little as a starter. Hackett is the starter for now, and if you ask me, depending on him to stay healthy for an entire season is like depending on Vladimir Malahkov to give a damn for an entire season. Hackett has also never won a playoff series, I believe. Now, yes, that was true of Patty Lalime a few years ago, and he has since worked through those growing pains. Lalime took some time to become what I consider a very, very good playoff goalie (look at the stats). Hackett is already, what, 34 or so....he's not young. The Flyers goaltending is very questionable if you ask me. I know Hackett played for some bad teams, and I'm in no way saying he can't win in the playoffs, but their goaltending is not a source of stability. Fortunately, Hitchcock unlike Quinn, plays a style that can cover up their major weakness.

The East has two elite teams, two legit Cup contenders right now: Ottawa and New Jersey. The Leafs and Flyers are in the second tier. Both teams can contend for the Cup, IMO, although I think some things need to go right (Philly and their goaltending) or some moves need to be made (TO and defence), for this to be a reality. Obviously, anything can happen in the playoffs, Carolina, Anaheim, Minnesota and Florida all come to mind. Now all these teams were upstart, defensively-minded young, energetic teams. None were Cup contenders, and none of their fans set out to win a Cup. The Leafs and their fans want a Cup, and that is the ultimate goal. Otherwise, the season is a relative failure. At this point, as said above, unless the Leafs avoid playing NJ or Ottawa, and maybe even Philly, they probably won't make it to the finals, let alone win it all. It's hardly impossible, but a Cup contender should not be hoping for an easy road and lots of good luck. That is not a sign of confidence.

Just my 0.02$ though.

Personally, I don't see why Philadelphia is much better than the Leafs. You ask me, their forwards are close to a draw, the Leafs possibly having an edge. The Flyers defence is not as good as the numbers indicate, IMO.

You're not serious right? Kapanen, Amonte, Roenick, Williams, Gagne, Primeau, Handzus, Somik, Recchi, Leclair (who should be back pretty soon), Lapointe (a good little grinder), Chouinard and Johnsson. Please, you have Sundin, Almo, Tucker, Antropov, Reichel (i guess), oh and Joe (if he isn't hurt), same with Roberts. None of the names besides Sundin & Mogilny struck fear in the hearts of any team. Joe is a great player who is getting old and he is injury prone. Same with Gary. The only way Tucker strucks fear is how bad is he going to injure a guy, same with Domi.

The Flyers defense was tied with the Devils for fewest goals in the league last year. We lost a flopping goalie and replaced him with a goalie who hasn't let a goal in yet. We also didn't lose anyone on defense. In fact, we got Bundy up in the press box where he belongs and Pitkanen and Vandermeer are in the lineup. To me, that's a great improvement. Our defense isn't as good as it indicates, yeah, it's better.

If defence goes to the Flyers, which it should, then goaltending goes to the Leafs, as it should. Esche is a very good back-up, but has proven little as a starter. Hackett is the starter for now, and if you ask me, depending on him to stay healthy for an entire season is like depending on Vladimir Malahkov to give a damn for an entire season.

Goaltending, of course, goes to you guys. No argument there. Esche hasn't started that many games. The guy basically got shut out in the second half of the season when Hitch decided to go with the bipolar goaler. Hackett will do fine if he stays healthy, no argument. I have no problem with Esche and having Nittymaki backing him up. We have enough guys that if the goaltending doesn't work out, Bob Clarke will be giving Ken Holland a call.

You're not serious right? Kapanen, Amonte, Roenick, Williams, Gagne, Primeau, Handzus, Somik, Recchi, Leclair (who should be back pretty soon), Lapointe (a good little grinder), Chouinard and Johnsson

:rolleyes: yeah williams,somik,chouinard, lapointe sure strike fear into my eyes, the only thing Preimeau is good for is knocking the other teams goalie on his @$$


you have Sundin, Almo, Tucker, Antropov, Reichel (i guess), oh and Joe (if he isn't hurt), same with Roberts. None of the names besides Sundin & Mogilny struck fear in the hearts of any team.

We have Sundin, Nolan (forgot didnt ya), Almo, Antropov, Tucker, Roberts, Nieuwy, MCabe, and Kaberle who >Johnsson

You're not serious right? Kapanen, Amonte, Roenick, Williams, Gagne, Primeau, Handzus, Somik, Recchi, Leclair (who should be back pretty soon), Lapointe (a good little grinder), Chouinard and Johnsson. Please, you have Sundin, Almo, Tucker, Antropov, Reichel (i guess), oh and Joe (if he isn't hurt), same with Roberts. None of the names besides Sundin & Mogilny struck fear in the hearts of any team. Joe is a great player who is getting old and he is injury prone. Same with Gary. The only way Tucker strucks fear is how bad is he going to injure a guy, same with Domi.

The Flyers defense was tied with the Devils for fewest goals in the league last year. We lost a flopping goalie and replaced him with a goalie who hasn't let a goal in yet. We also didn't lose anyone on defense. In fact, we got Bundy up in the press box where he belongs and Pitkanen and Vandermeer are in the lineup. To me, that's a great improvement. Our defense isn't as good as it indicates, yeah, it's better.



Goaltending, of course, goes to you guys. No argument there. Esche hasn't started that many games. The guy basically got shut out in the second half of the season when Hitch decided to go with the bipolar goaler. Hackett will do fine if he stays healthy, no argument. I have no problem with Esche and having Nittymaki backing him up. We have enough guys that if the goaltending doesn't work out, Bob Clarke will be giving Ken Holland a call.

Buddy, I'm a Senators fan.

Sundin > Roenick
Mogilny > Gagne
Nolan > Recchi
Roberts = Leclair
Niewendyk = Amonte
Antropov = Handzus
Reichel < Primeau
Renberg = Kapanen
Brashear = Domi
Stajan < Williams
Tucker > Lapointe

That's 11 forwards for each team. The final tally: 4-2 Toronto. Now, I think it's roughly equal across the board. For example, Williams is significantly better than Stajan, and Tucker for example can be a detriment to his team. But as a Sens fan, do you think I'm biased towards the Leafs. I mean, come on.

I admit your defence is better. You have much better depth. That is obviously Toronto's weakness. But Hackett isn't a great #1 goalie, Belfour is. Philly and Toronto win games in different ways. Toronto plays run and gun offence, putting all the pressure on their goalie. Philly plays tight defensive hockey, Hitchcock style. Also, by your logic of Cechmanek being inferior to Hackett because he isn't as technique-based, then Hasek is inferior to Hackett as well? Cechmanek's problem is he is a head-case, and tha'ts highlighted in the playoffs. The problem is not talent or ability to produce. Look at his numbers. Hackett will probably produce very good numbers, but until he proves to me at least, that he has any sort of playoff ability, he has nothing. The guy has 12 career playoff games under his belt, no series wins, will be 35 later this season, and has an injury history.

the leafs will not win the cup..... get a grip.... this same crap is stated every year....

the leafs will not win the cup..... get a grip.... this same crap is stated every year....

:handclap:

I would like to see them win it,but it's not this year.