The Great Debate...

:D

Pete:

Looks like I lit a bee under your Tampa Bay bonnet, eh?

1) Again, I think Mezei is better, you think Sarich is better, again, I stated I would want Mezei over Sarich. Did I call Sarich crap? No. Do I think Mezei has better hands than Sarich? Yes. Do You? No. Where is the missing link. For someone that doesn't agree with my opinion, you sure put alot of stock into it.

Spineless? Uh huh...

:lol:

2) Sorry, but that was the reported offer straight from the Senators management's mouth. Is it a bad deal? Then? No. Now? Probably. You can't add two years of extra experience and development into a deal that never went down, over two years ago. Lecavalier is not the prima-dona he once was. The stripping him of the his "C" is what I think helped him turn the corner, he realized that this is not the same game he dominated in juniors, and decided to work on his, admittedly, phenominal skills. That is my opinion. Do you agree? I don't know or care. The same probably goes for you.

3) You sat there and said that Lecavalier couldn't have succeeded without the players Dudley provided. Where? I said that they contributed "MORE" than what you gave them credit for. This was never about Vinny, now, or ever. This I thought was about Rick Dudley? Am I wrong? What did you expect Dudley to do? There was a dispute with the coaching staff, right? He was stripped of the "C", almost dealt, and then got the idea of how this league is run. Should Dudley have played for him too? Never gave him a scoring winger? Ha. You named those provided yourself.

4) Again, I don't care what happens to your ex-players, but still, you cannot say that Vinny Prospal did not help to take the team to the next level. Did he play above his head? Maybe. Er, probably. But, his contribution is only inquestion by you. Why? Again I just don't care. He didn't produce for Florida so we dealt him. Was I crying when he helped you guys? No. You just put him in a system that was better for his skill set. Yaaaaaaaay.

5) And Darcy Tucker would still be leading your team in scoring wouldn't he? Then, Tucker goes to a "BETTER" team, (at that point at least) and with top line minutes (sometimes) he never put up better numbers with "BETTER" (at that point at least) players. Did you really think Tucker was a core guy? That he would really continue leading your team? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe it could happened... :rolleyes:

6) What I said was: 1/3 to 1/2 of your team was acquired by Dudley. WHAT?? It's true. Wow, thanks for proving me right. Again it does not matter what my opinion of your players are. It only matters (at this time anyways) what Jay Feaster's opinion is. And obviously, he thinks pretty highly of those guys. Hence, the spots on your roster. And then when you look at last years roster and include Prospal the precentage is even higher.

7) Again as you stated, 9 of your starting 18 are Dudley acquistions. I mean you wrote it, at least read what you yourself put down. I'll even give you the 19th man Grahame even though he didn't play. What can't you see about the makeup of your own team.

8) I never said Dudley's team, it's Feaster's team now isn't it? Yes. Rick Dudley works for the Florida Panthers, now. What is hilarious is the fact that even though you may not like Dudley and his moves is the fact that his moves are "STILL" paying dividends after two years away from the team. I can't defend all of Dudley's moves, every GM makes questionable moves. But, I can see from your own roster breakdowns that "SOME" of the moves he made helped get you were you are. Last year's division champions. Again congratulations. I don't expect you to kiss Dudley's ass or credit him with what you guys accomplished last year, but, he did help put the personnel in place to "HELP YOU" get where you got. That cannot be denied.

9) You again, are the only one that is stating that Dudley inhertied nothing. Where did I say that? Where was any of that said? What you said, was that Rick Dudley did "NOTHING" to help your team, when in actually it is he that has still the most influence on the players in your starting lineup, that is fact.

10) I am sorry he didn't draft anyone of substanial name power for you. You're right. I guess he didn't draft anyone good for you. Still half (or pretty close to it) of your current opening day roster was put into place with Dudley's management.

11) Yoda, Master of the Draft? Only Brian Burke and you have stated those words. Has he in my opinion done a quality job at the drafting table for the Florida Panthers? Yes I believe he has. For the Tampa Bay Lightning? You say no. Ok. For the Ottawa Senators? I don't know? You?

12) Regardless, of the crap you otherwise write, Rick Dudley has and still does have a hand with the skill and success of your Tampa Bay Lightning, through the players he acquired. My opinion on your players? It just doesn't matter in the scheme of things. I don't make the management calls for us and you don't make the calls for your team either.

13) As for his losing record at the NHL level with when he started his three different appointments as GM, with marginal teams (at those times) Ottawa only got better, Tampa Bay got better, and now Florida is getting better. I hope he stays here for a long time to see us develop. And I guess from your sentiments, that you should be praisng ALLA that he is no longer ruining the half team he helped create in Tampa. You know, the one your so proud of.

14) By the way, on a side note, I read your own post about how even you thought that Afansenkov should be in the minor's but he is a 2nd line winger.

15) Never was this a personal thing for me against Tampa Bay, but don't think you can come onto our board and spout some crap about our GM. He is building our team and he built some of yours. Like I said the proof is always in the pudding. And obviously, stats again don't lie. Enjoy.

:D

I just HAD to add some things to this:

He stupidly traded Mike Sillinger for Ryan Johnson and Dwayne Hay
Well, Johnson later turned into Prospal -- you do the math!

Cory Sarich: 291 GP / 40 PTS = 7.275 PTS/GM
Bradislav Mezei: 80 GP / 9 PTS = 8.889 PTS/GM

Are you smart enought to check the facts before you open your mouths? Apparantly not!

I am glad to see that TB_FANATIC steps in and gives SOME credibility to your awesome (INSERT SARCASM HERE) fans!

Lets check the record: The Panthers are 26-15-9 against your all mighty bolts. Looks like you guys have a lot of catching up to do.

I will give the Bolts credit, they have 3 players in HF's Top 50 -- ALL DRAFTED BY DUDLEY! Dudley built your current team and you haven't even seen all of what he did yet. It's alright though, because I am sure Egener and Smaby will make the list this year. :dunno:

I don't need to let my words judge Dudley's abilities. You can just sit back and watch him turn his second team into a winner, and when he does, you can come cry about it to me.

For this thread to continue, posters will be required to show opposing posters the same degree of respect you would like and expect to recieve at hfboards. Otherwise, like it's predecessor, this thread will be closed.

For this thread to continue, posters will be required to show opposing posters the same degree of respect you would like and expect to recieve at hfboards. Otherwise, like it's predecessor, this thread will be closed.

Agreed! :yo:

As long as they understand that I am right all the time. :joker:

For this thread to continue, posters will be required to show opposing posters the same degree of respect you would like and expect to recieve at hfboards. Otherwise, like it's predecessor, this thread will be closed.

As a very frequent visitors to HF, but a not so regular poster, all these FLA-TB posts sturred some feelings here too... :)

Heimy, as usual, very valid point that both sides should think about.

I just found it a little amusing in a (maybe far-fetched) way that:
- Bolts fans are "attacking" Dudley.
- Panthers fans are sticking up for Dudley.

This turns into:
1. Panthers fans sticking up for their GM, which is great.
2. Bolts fans actually critizising their own players (?).

What I have understood is (from different Bolts fans):
Dudley is no good, he brought in 9 of the current players, which then would lead to that they are no good... Or? I don't get it... :D

If my team lineup looked liked for example the Penguins I would see the reasoning, but with the Lightning raising a Division Champs Banner last week I fail to see it... Well, anyway, just my two cents.

Why don't we show the opening night roster of the Lightning now? I mean if this is SO CLEARLY Rick Dudley's team, surely it will be dominated by Dudley's players, right?

1st line:
Cory Stillman: Trade (Feaster)
Brad Richards: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Martin St. Louis: Free Agent (Dudley)

2nd line:
Dimitry Afanasenkov: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Vincent Lecavalier: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Ruslan Fedotenko: Trade (Feaster)

3rd Line:
Chris Dingman: Trade (Feaster)
Tim Taylor: Trade (Dudley)
Dave Andreychuk: Trade (Dudley)

4th Line:
Fredrik Modin: Trade (Dudley)
Martin Cibak: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Ben Clymer: Free Agent (Dudley)

So less than half of the team's opening night forwards were Dudley acquisitions and only one guy on the scoring lines came from Dudley. Explain to me how this is "Dudley's team" again?

Defensemen:
Jassen Cullimore: Waivers (Espo/Demers)
Cory Sarich: Trade (Dudley)

Brad Lukowich: Trade (Feaster)
Pavel Kubina: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)

Nolan Pratt: Trade (Dudley)
Dan Boyle: Trade (Dudley)

So only half of the d-men came from Dudley, two of whom you "genius" Panther fans have already said "suck" in Sarich and Pratt. And only one of the top-four defensemen from opening night were from Dudley. Explain to me how this is "Dudley's team" again?

Goaltender:
Nikolai Khabibulin: Trade(Dudley)

So only 9 of the 19 players that played on opening night came from Rick Dudley (LESS THAN HALF) and only THREE of them played in the key positions on the top two lines, top two pairings, or between the pipes on opening night. Explain to me how this is "Dudley's team" again? Only 3 guys in the top 11 positions. COME ON PANTHER FAN. JUSTIFY IT. TELL ME HOW THIS IS "DUDLEY'S TEAM" AGAIN!!!

Know what else is HILLARIOUS? Rick Dudley is supposed to be "Yoda, Master of the Draft" and the prospect guru. Do you see ANY Rick Dudley draft picks on this roster. Just ONE? Find me ONE, Panther fan, who made the team.

Further proof Dudley inherited a lot more than Panther fan thinks he did: the number of drafted players that came from the Espo/Demers era that made the Lightning's opening night roster versus from Dudley's:

Espo/Demers/Murdoch era: 5 (Richards, Lecavalier, Afanasenkov, Cibak, Kubina)
Rick Dudley era: 0

WHAT?!?!?! How can this be Panther fan? If Rick Dudley inherited NOTHING how can it be that there are 5 players drafted during the Espo/Demers/Murdoch and NONE from when Dudley was doing the drafting. NONE. Zip. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

But he's "Yoda, Master of the Draft" isn't he??? No, Panther fan, he's "Yoda, Master of Drafting on the Front Row" because the only thing he could win is a DOG SHOW. He's a terrible GM.

So now that I've fulfilled your request Panther fan, do me a favor and post Rick Dudley's W-L-T-OTL record from the Lightning and Panthers combined. C'mon Panther fan, if Rick Dudley is truly a "genius" surely he'll have a record you can be proud of right?

-Pete Choquette

Thats nice but we don't give a flyin **** about your opening roster but lets see what your roster was when ***YOU MADE THE PLAYOFFS***...

Prospal = Dudley
Lecavalier = Demers
Richards = Demers
St. Louis = Dudley
Boyle = Dudley
Modin = Dudley
Andrechuk = Dudley
Fedotenko = Feaster
Kubina = Demers
Clymer = Dudley
A.Roy = Feaster
Lukowich = Feaster
Sarich = Dudley
Taylor = Dudley
Svitov = Dudley
Laukkanen = Feaster
Pratt = Dudley
Keefe = Dudley
Bergevin = Feaster
Alexeev = Dudley
Neckar = Dudley
Cullimore = Demers
Dingman = Feaster
Olevstad = Dudley
Khabibulin = Dudley
Grahame = Feaster
Rumble = Feaster

Thats 4 for Demers, 15 for Dudley, and 8 for Feaster.

Lets examine the great Jay Feaster and his *significant* moves: Andre Roy...wow where does big bad Jay Feaster find this talent?? Oh wait what a coincidence A.Roy is one of *DUDLEY'S BOYS* from Ottawa :D , Fedotenko...nice contributer but worth losing Pitkanen??? Hell no!!! Lukowich I thought was a decent trade 27 year old d-man and 7th rounder for a 2nd rounder. Laukkanen, played only 2 regular season games so wasteful signing. Bergevin, played only 1 regular season game so he didn't help get you to the playoffs. Dingman, enforcer acquired (along w/ Shane Willis) for Kevin Weekes, IMO trade didn't work out too well but whatever. Grahame, good reliable backup but with Khabibulin in net who cares especially since you were already set with Weekes but I know Kevin wanted out of TB, and then Darren Rumble.

So how as we are saying Dudley was a BIG reason why you made the playoffs, oh and lets not forget your coach was another Dudley move :rolly: :rolly: :rolly:

Count me in as someone who has figured out a looong time ago that Dudley is a tool. I encountered a lot of resistance from Bolts fans at HF back in the days. The resistance by many of the Dudley supporters right now is a *carbon copy* of what could be seen then.

However, I strongly disagree with Pete Choquette's usual bullying way to try and score cheap points. In the process, this is turning into a useless Cats VS Bolts debate when it just shouldn't be one.

My 2 cents at this point is that, since Dudley's incompetence has been very well documented, I don't see how anything that will be said in this thread will change anybody's mind. If the first thread needed to be closed, then why have an extension of that thread a few hours later? The thread even picks up where the other one left, with a response to a heated post. There is a good discussion to be had but I feel it can wait until next time, when things cool down. I didn't bother posting in the other thread because it was already chaotic.

I'm posting in this one to let Panthers fan know that not everybody who sees Dudley as a complete tool is automatically hostile towards them. I hope you will do well and wish you the best.

The fact is, Dudley's competency as a GM cannot be measured. It has to be perceived. Some of us obviously have a very, very screwed up perception since we're virtually at opposite ends of the spectrum but I won't bother trying to state out who is at the wrong end and who is at the right end :p

I'm gonna go grab some pop corn and enjoy the flame war now :D

i read the whole last thread and other than the simple comment i made to pete about the four players that got ignored i didnt say anything else. he responded with another huge post ripping someone else again, and commented on bad panther fan logic...

at one point pete, you said mike johnson was a crappy winger that dudley acquired to play with lecavalier.

he sucks...but didnt he score something around 60 points (and took pretty good care of his own end as well) last year on a pretty crappy phoenix team?

wheres the logic there buddy?

everyone has a right to his/her opinion about the quality of gms and players, but when you decide leave hockey to personally attack someone in an argument you need to have your ***** straight kid.

btw, those four players were khabiboulin, st. louis, andreychuk, and taylor....and someone else added boyle and his 53 points. make the playoffs without them and you win the rick dudley argument sweepstakes.

I'm gonna go grab some pop corn and enjoy the flame war now :D

i got no intention of getting involved in a flame war with you or anyone else. my problem with the whole thread FROM BOTH SIDES has been people arguing out of thier a** instead of their brain. except for everyone who has agreed with me, theyre ok. LOL

but seriously, the one point pete does have is when you guys are arguing this player or that player and one of us spouts of with "well we own the all time series!!!"

im all for seeing this rivalry turn back into the bloodbath it usually was back in the day, but at least stick to the argument at hand.

Cory Sarich: 291 GP / 40 PTS = 7.275 PTS/GM
Bradislav Mezei: 80 GP / 9 PTS = 8.889 PTS/GM

Wow, Cory Sarich gets 7 points a game? Good to see PantherNation has some math majors in its midst :joker:

Sorry, but that was the reported offer straight from the Senators management's mouth.

The Sens management would never put out names after the fact of a deal that didn't go down and risk alienating the players in question. Maybe Bruce Garrioch spread that rumor at some point, bue "Sens management" sure as hell didn't.

TSN.ca had the deal pinned at Spezza, Bonk, and Salo for Lecavalier (which is a WAY better deal than the stinker you posted) and Rick Dudley has said he had another deal on the table probably from Vancouver.

5) And Darcy Tucker would still be leading your team in scoring wouldn't he? Then, Tucker goes to a "BETTER" team, (at that point at least) and with top line minutes (sometimes)

With all due respect, have you WATCHED any Leafs games in the last 3 years? Sorry, but Gary Valk and Tie Domi weren't "better" linemates nor does he get more ice time in Toronto on their 3rd line.

7) Again as you stated, 9 of your starting 18 are Dudley acquistions.

No, 20 players dress on any given night. 19 play. 23 on the full roster. 9/19 on opening night. 9/23 on the opening night roster.

10) I am sorry he didn't draft anyone of substanial name power for you.

I'm sorry he didn't draft ONE guy who made the opening night roster.

11) Yoda, Master of the Draft?

Yoda, Master of Drafting in the Front Row.

12) Regardless, of the crap you otherwise write, Rick Dudley has and still does have a hand with the skill and success of your Tampa Bay Lightning,

Less than 50%. It isn't his team.

14) By the way, on a side note, I read your own post about how even you thought that Afansenkov should be in the minor's but he is a 2nd line winger.

Made the team didn't he? Can't say the same for Alexeev can you? How sad is that? He couldn't even beat out a guy who they exhiled to the Kloten Flyers of the Swiss league last season!

Lets check the record: The Panthers are 26-15-9 against your all mighty bolts.

And have lost the season series three years running as I recall. Lean on your crutch though Panther fan.

I will give the Bolts credit, they have 3 players in HF's Top 50 -- ALL DRAFTED BY DUDLEY!

Did any of them make the team? Not to be mean but Svitov has done nothing in NA pro hockey yet and Artukhin (who didn't belong on that list) couldn't even score 20 goals in the QMJHL. Until just ONE Dudley draft pick turns into something more than a marginal player for the Lightning, there will rightfully be skepticism.

What I have understood is (from different Bolts fans):
Dudley is no good, he brought in 9 of the current players, which then would lead to that they are no good... Or? I don't get it...

Its not Rick Dudley's team. Panthers fans like to say the Lightning were awful and had no talent in the cupboard when Rick Dudley took over and that by exercising his "genius" he magically turned a pumpkin into a carriage. That is grossly incorrect. There WAS a lot in the cupboard, and many of Rick Dudley's moves were patently HORRIBLE and frankly he probably PROLONGED the suffering of Lightning fans 2-3 years longer because of them by making 2 or 3 bad moves for every 1 good one.

If my team lineup looked liked for example the Penguins I would see the reasoning, but with the Lightning raising a Division Champs Banner last week I fail to see it...

It wasn't raised because of Dudley...

Laukkanen, played only 2 regular season games so wasteful signing.

Or a waiver pickup at the trade deadline :rolleyes:

15 players... if you expand the roster to 27 and overemphasize the contributions of 4th liners like Keefe, Olvestad, Svitov etc. Even last year only half of the top 6 forwards were Dudley's players, and only 2 of the team's top 5 defensemen were Dudley's players.

Count me in as someone who has figured out a looong time ago that Dudley is a tool. I encountered a lot of resistance from Bolts fans at HF back in the days. The resistance by many of the Dudley supporters right now is a *carbon copy* of what could be seen then.

Yep. I recall this as well.

However, I strongly disagree with Pete Choquette's usual bullying way to try and score cheap points.

Usual? :D Bullying? :D

I have strong opinions and exploit weaknesses in someone's argument (like saying Cory Sarich gets 7 points a game)... that's not bullying, that's smart.

In the process, this is turning into a useless Cats VS Bolts debate when it just shouldn't be one.

Excuse me? This is a RIVALRY. We HATE the Panthers and their fans. That's what a rivalry is all about.

at one point pete, you said mike johnson was a crappy winger that dudley acquired to play with lecavalier.

he sucks...but didnt he score something around 60 points (and took pretty good care of his own end as well) last year on a pretty crappy phoenix team?

wheres the logic there buddy?

What'd he do in Tampa? I'll tell you what he did: he played lazy, lethargic, dispassionate hockey. And he is still a perimeter player who is well known for being one of the softest players in the league by far.

One 60 point season doesn't erase that he was a piece of garbage for the two previous years in which he had under 40 points and less than 20 goals. You get YOUR facts straight "buddy".

-Pete Choquette

Count me in as someone who has figured out a looong time ago that Dudley is a tool. I encountered a lot of resistance from Bolts fans at HF back in the days. The resistance by many of the Dudley supporters right now is a *carbon copy* of what could be seen then.

However, I strongly disagree with Pete Choquette's usual bullying way to try and score cheap points. In the process, this is turning into a useless Cats VS Bolts debate when it just shouldn't be one.

My 2 cents at this point is that, since Dudley's incompetence has been very well documented, I don't see how anything that will be said in this thread will change anybody's mind. If the first thread needed to be closed, then why have an extension of that thread a few hours later? The thread even picks up where the other one left, with a response to a heated post. There is a good discussion to be had but I feel it can wait until next time, when things cool down. I didn't bother posting in the other thread because it was already chaotic.

I'm posting in this one to let Panthers fan know that not everybody who sees Dudley as a complete tool is automatically hostile towards them. I hope you will do well and wish you the best.

The fact is, Dudley's competency as a GM cannot be measured. It has to be perceived. Some of us obviously have a very, very screwed up perception since we're virtually at opposite ends of the spectrum but I won't bother trying to state out who is at the wrong end and who is at the right end :p

I'm gonna go grab some pop corn and enjoy the flame war now :D


With Dudley, I think the truth is actually in the middle. I agree with you about his moves as a Tampa GM. I though he made some horrible moves there. The amount of talent he gave away in order to secure his goaltending, was amazing.

But, he has been a good GM in Florida, showing a much more patient hand. Yeah, he blew the Hurme situation, but every other move he made has been shrewd. His general success at getting fair value in deals, give the $ cutting he was forced to do, was impressive. FLA has got a great young stable of talent.

So, my take is Dudley did a mediocre to bad job in Tampa, but he has been a very good GM in Florida.

Conclusions (X-refed from Lightning board):

I'm satisfied all the major myths have been debunked: 1.) Rick Dudley is a genius. 2.) Rick Dudley made the Lightning out of nothing. 3.) Rick Dudley is a master drafter/talent developer. If you look at the Panthers fans responses they have long since retreated to less idealistic fallback positions like "Well Rick Dudley had SOMETHING to do with the Lightning." Well yes, yes he did Panther fan. Demers/Espo/Murdoch also had SOMETHING (ie adding the two franchise players and half the top-4 d-men which can be seen as a bigger share of the puzzle than what Dudley added) to do with building the Lightning too.

The difference is, no one is running around calling Jacques Demers a "genius", Phil Esposito the "lone architect of the Lightning", or Donny Murdoch a "great drafter/talent evaluator". Panther fan would like to believe Rick Dudley is all these things, including "savior" too, and what we've done in debunking those myths is to prove that the Lightning are a product of multiple authorship, only a minority part of which is Dudley's doing, and that Panther fan is acting irrational when they throw roses at his feet and make him him out to be the second coming.

And that's a good thing.

The money's on the dresser, I'm through with you Panther fans.

-Pete Choquette

Conclusions (X-refed from Lightning board):

I'm satisfied all the major myths have been debunked: 1.) Rick Dudley is a genius. 2.) Rick Dudley made the Lightning out of nothing. 3.) Rick Dudley is a master drafter/talent developer. If you look at the Panthers fans responses they have long since retreated to less idealistic fallback positions like "Well Rick Dudley had SOMETHING to do with the Lightning." Well yes, yes he did Panther fan. Demers/Espo/Murdoch also had SOMETHING (ie adding the two franchise players and half the top-4 d-men which can be seen as a bigger share of the puzzle than what Dudley added) too.

The difference is, no one is running around calling Jacques Demers a "genius", Phil Esposito the "lone architect of the Lightning", or Donny Murdoch a "great drafter/talent evaluator". Panther fan would like to believe Rick Dudley is all these things, including "savior" too, and what we've done in debunking those myths is to prove that the Lightning are a product of multiple authorship, only a minority part of which is Dudley's doing, and that Panther fan is acting irrational when they throw roses at his feet and make him him out to be the second coming.

And that's a good thing.

The money's on the dresser, I'm through with you Panther fans.

-Pete Choquette


:D

I am sure glad that you are through Pete.

But again it is you that is mistaken, over and over again. It was you who argued that Rick Dudley had nothing good to do with your team. We argued that he had a hand in the overall success. You proved me correct. We never said anything of the talent or previous history of the Tampa Bay Lightning. We just don't care. But don't ever come to our house and talk smack about our team and organization. Period. Stupidity proves itself wrong, and you sir, continue to prove it to all in the general radius of your loud mouth.

We will continue to enjoy the fruit harvested by Rick Dudley, good luck to you on the upcoming season.

:D

Wow, Cory Sarich gets 7 points a game? Good to see PantherNation has some math majors in its midst :joker:

-Pete Choquette

Oops -- Brain fart there. I guess I am thinking on another level with all the math I have taken in the past two years.

Excuse me? This is a RIVALRY. We HATE the Panthers and their fans. That's what a rivalry is all about.

I suppose I have to respect that line of thinking but it's something I have never understood. Must be awkward to hate your neighbors like that :p

Anyway, my opinion is that by involving the rivalry in your arguments, Pete, you have made it more difficult for people to coldly rationalize all of this.

In the process, what was a thread to establish Dudley's skills (or lack thereof) as a GM is colored and diluted by side-issues. Tempers boil but not much else is gained by anyone involved.

Must be awkward to hate your neighbors like that

We're not really neighbors though. Its 280 miles between Tampa and Miami. To put that in perspective, its only 215 miles between New York and Boston. They certainly aren't considered neighbors.

Tampa is a working class town that grew up beside the docks, which is today just walking distance away from the SPTF. That's a far cry from South Beach, and those differences breed contempt that was only fueled by the arrogance of the Panthers organization to name themselves Florida's team when the Lightning were here first. Over the years there have been incidents which have further inflamed the conflict ranging from cheap shots to ridiculous claims of racism thrown at Sandy McCarthy of all players. And that's to say nothing of the smugness of Panther fans, who never missed an opportunity to kick the Lightning when they were down. Turnabout, revenge, payback... whatever you want to name it, Lightning fans are now enjoying it. For Panther fan to cry foul now is laughable after years of their contemptible behavior.

People on the outside don't understand the animosity felt in the rivalry. The whole idea that our two hockey teams and a healthy number of their fans could absolutely despise each other seems as ridiculous a concept as, oh, say, hockey in Florida. But the tension is real. In fairness, Lightning fans hate Panthers fans a lot more than vice versa. This is partly because of the fickleness of the South Florida sports fans and partly because the lean years in Tampa embittered Lightning fans, almost all of whom tend to have very long memories. But that shouldn't at all diminish your respect for the power of the rivalry. It may not be as well known Colorado/Detroit or the Isles/Rangers, but it is still very real and very powerful and to suggest that this thread could have ended up as anything other than a vitriol hurling contest is naive. And I, for one, would never have it any other way. :D

-Pete Choquette

What'd he do in Tampa? I'll tell you what he did: he played lazy, lethargic, dispassionate hockey. And he is still a perimeter player who is well known for being one of the softest players in the league by far.

One 60 point season doesn't erase that he was a piece of garbage for the two previous years in which he had under 40 points and less than 20 goals. You get YOUR facts straight "buddy".

-Pete Choquette


he was AVERAGE in tampa, blossomed into a good player in phoenix...wouldnt that tell you that dudley was on the money in that case as far as performance, however wrong he might have been in terms of time frame? and do ALL players have to play wrecking ball style hockey to succeed? no. and lets be fair, no one else on that team was performing to expectations either.

acquired a pretty good player that turned into what he expected him to be (in this case for someone else, happens all the time, see: bertuzzi, pronger, hull, naslund, nedved, boyle, jokinen hopefully and on and on and on).

you still ignored my statement about the four (+boyle, i cant take credit for that part) players from your team, but i guess you cant argue with that or pick at grammatical or semantic errors on that one so we'll let that slide.

We're not really neighbors though. Its 280 miles between Tampa and Miami. To put that in perspective, its only 215 miles between New York and Boston. They certainly aren't considered neighbors.

Tampa is a working class town that grew up beside the docks, which is today just walking distance away from the SPTF. That's a far cry from South Beach, and those differences breed contempt that was only fueled by the arrogance of the Panthers organization to name themselves Florida's team when the Lightning were here first. Over the years there have been incidents which have further inflamed the conflict ranging from cheap shots to ridiculous claims of racism thrown at Sandy McCarthy of all players. And that's to say nothing of the smugness of Panther fans, who never missed an opportunity to kick the Lightning when they were down. Turnabout, revenge, payback... whatever you want to name it, Lightning fans are now enjoying it. For Panther fan to cry foul now is laughable after years of their contemptible behavior.

People on the outside don't understand the animosity felt in the rivalry. The whole idea that our two hockey teams and a healthy number of their fans could absolutely despise each other seems as ridiculous a concept as, oh, say, hockey in Florida. But the tension is real. In fairness, Lightning fans hate Panthers fans a lot more than vice versa. This is partly because of the fickleness of the South Florida sports fans and partly because the lean years in Tampa embittered Lightning fans, almost all of whom tend to have very long memories. But that shouldn't at all diminish your respect for the power of the rivalry. It may not be as well known Colorado/Detroit or the Isles/Rangers, but it is still very real and very powerful and to suggest that this thread could have ended up as anything other than a vitriol hurling contest is naive. And I, for one, would never have it any other way. :D

-Pete ChoquetteYou know this is funny to me actually. I've never cried foul about anything with the Bolts & Panthers. And its true that this rivalry is deep rooted. But I think you do speak some truths about South Florida sports fans. And the funniest part about this is just my feelings towards Bolts fans. I think the reason I don't like most Lightning fans is because they're so embittered about those lean yrs and how they won't let things go from the past (and I think FL fans need to move on from the "we beat you guys for yrs" argument as well). I think if both teams' fans moved out of the past and into the future, the rivlary would be more about the game than anything. I refuse to go to a Panther-Lightning game in TB because of the fans there...at least at our arena, you wouldn't feel like you might get physcially harmed just for supporting another hockey team. Thats taking it further than a fan and into psychotic fanaticism. Its not all Bolt fans but I'm sure too many to count and hard to distinguish them from the rest.

Pete, I knew that it would be possible to cut through the BS name-calling with you. Now, if you want to put the BS aside again and have a civil conversation about our rivarly or just hockey in general. Please, come back again.

:handclap:

I knew there was hope for fans in Tampa Bay, after all they aren't all idiots....

;)

Wow, Pete you had to get that out, I can respect that. But don't misrepresent what I said to cover your original arguement.

What CHaos2k isn't telling you:

1.) Only half of the Lightning's top-6 forwards and only 2 if the Lightning's top-5 d-men from last year's playoff team came from Rick Dudley. CHaos2k also cheats by enlarging the Lightning's roster to 27 and including guys who had negligible contributions like Olvestad, Alexeev, and Keefe on the list of 15. When you value rate these players, as I did, you find it's a different story. No CHaos2k, Stan Neckar does not count the same as a Cullimore, Sarich, or Lukowich.


Pete, again I never published that roster of 27 players, that belongs to a poster named Crossbar. What was posted was:


http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=17113&mode=linear&perpage=15&pagenumber=7

Take a look at it Panthers fans: only 9 players on the Lightning's current 23 man roster came from Rick Dudley. LESS THAN HALF.

Why don't we show the opening night roster of the Lightning now? I mean if this is SO CLEARLY Rick Dudley's team, surely it will be dominated by Dudley's players, right?

1st line:
Cory Stillman: Trade (Feaster)
Brad Richards: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Martin St. Louis: Free Agent (Dudley)

2nd line:
Dimitry Afanasenkov: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Vincent Lecavalier: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Ruslan Fedotenko: Trade (Feaster)

3rd Line:
Chris Dingman: Trade (Feaster)
Tim Taylor: Trade (Dudley)
Dave Andreychuk: Trade (Dudley)

4th Line:
Fredrik Modin: Trade (Dudley)
Martin Cibak: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)
Ben Clymer: Free Agent (Dudley)

So less than half of the team's opening night forwards were Dudley acquisitions and only one guy on the scoring lines came from Dudley. Explain to me how this is "Dudley's team" again?

Defensemen:
Jassen Cullimore: Waivers (Espo/Demers)
Cory Sarich: Trade (Dudley)

Brad Lukowich: Trade (Feaster)
Pavel Kubina: Draft Pick (Espo/Demers/Murdoch)

Nolan Pratt: Trade (Dudley)
Dan Boyle: Trade (Dudley)

So only half of the d-men came from Dudley, two of whom you "genius" Panther fans have already said "suck" in Sarich and Pratt. And only one of the top-four defensemen from opening night were from Dudley. Explain to me how this is "Dudley's team" again?

Goaltender:
Nikolai Khabibulin: Trade(Dudley)

So only 9 of the 19 players that played on opening night came from Rick Dudley (LESS THAN HALF) and only THREE of them played in the key positions on the top two lines, top two pairings, or between the pipes on opening night.


This is very true. 9 players of the 19 that dressed opening night were acquired by Dudley. That is the point. I am not saying he built the WHOLE team, I said he contributed a large portion of it.


I complied with CHaos' little mealy mouthed whining to produce a list and factual evidence backing these claims on the Panther board. All I asked in exchange was a simple posting of Rick Dudley's career win/loss record as a GM. Not complicated. Not as time consuming as publishing a fully researched list. JUST SHOW US RICK DUDLEY'S W/L RECORD AS A GM IN THE NHL!!! But he has refused to honor that request with the same cowardice and hypocrisy which we all just saw in his claims "I never called Lightning fans stupid." and "I never called YOU stupid."

Just like when I ask him to show me just ONE Rick Dudley drafted player on the Lightning roster he glosses it over, ignores it, and misrepresents it by saying "I'm sorry you expect every player drafted to be an impact player." No CHaos2k, I expect just ONE freaking Rick Dudley drafted player to make the Lightning team, especially when there are FIVE on this team from what pundits always labeled a disasterous Espo/Demers/Murdoch regime. Is that unreasonable? Surely "Yoda, Master of the Draft(ing in the Front Row)" could produce even a #7 defenseman or a 13th or 14th forward on the roster, right?!?!? But no, actually he couldn't. And you're not man enough to fess up to that. And that's sad.



:rolleyes:

Again, Pete, I never talked about his drafting skills etc. you did. I think he has done a good job thus far for the Florida Panthers. The orginal problem was you again saying that Dudley was crap and did "NOTHING" for your team. Your were proven wrong again.

But I still posted this:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=19994

3) You sat there and said that Lecavalier couldn't have succeeded without the players Dudley provided. Where? I said that they contributed "MORE" than what you gave them credit for. This was never about Vinny, now, or ever. This I thought was about Rick Dudley? Am I wrong? What did you expect Dudley to do? There was a dispute with the coaching staff, right? He was stripped of the "C", almost dealt, and then got the idea of how this league is run. Should Dudley have played for him too? Never gave him a scoring winger? Ha. You named those provided yourself.

6) What I said was: 1/3 to 1/2 of your team was acquired by Dudley. WHAT?? It's true. Wow, thanks for proving me right. Again it does not matter what my opinion of your players are. It only matters (at this time anyways) what Jay Feaster's opinion is. And obviously, he thinks pretty highly of those guys. Hence, the spots on your roster. And then when you look at last years roster and include Prospal the precentage is even higher.

7) Again as you stated, 9 of your starting 18 are Dudley acquistions. I mean you wrote it, at least read what you yourself put down. I'll even give you the 19th man Grahame even though he didn't play. What can't you see about the makeup of your own team.

8) I never said Dudley's team, it's Feaster's team now isn't it? Yes. Rick Dudley works for the Florida Panthers, now. What is hilarious is the fact that even though you may not like Dudley and his moves is the fact that his moves are "STILL" paying dividends after two years away from the team. I can't defend all of Dudley's moves, every GM makes questionable moves. But, I can see from your own roster breakdowns that "SOME" of the moves he made helped get you were you are. Last year's division champions. Again congratulations. I don't expect you to kiss Dudley's ass or credit him with what you guys accomplished last year, but, he did help put the personnel in place to "HELP YOU" get where you got. That cannot be denied.

9) You again, are the only one that is stating that Dudley inhertied nothing. Where did I say that? Where was any of that said? What you said, was that Rick Dudley did "NOTHING" to help your team, when in actually it is he that has still the most influence on the players in your starting lineup, that is fact.

10) I am sorry he didn't draft anyone of substanial name power for you. You're right. I guess he didn't draft anyone good for you. Still half (or pretty close to it) of your current opening day roster was put into place with Dudley's management.

11) Yoda, Master of the Draft? Only Brian Burke and you have stated those words. Has he in my opinion done a quality job at the drafting table for the Florida Panthers? Yes I believe he has. For the Tampa Bay Lightning? You say no. Ok. For the Ottawa Senators? I don't know? You?

12) Regardless, of the crap you otherwise write, Rick Dudley has and still does have a hand with the skill and success of your Tampa Bay Lightning, through the players he acquired. My opinion on your players? It just doesn't matter in the scheme of things. I don't make the management calls for us and you don't make the calls for your team either.

13) As for his losing record at the NHL level with when he started his three different appointments as GM, with marginal teams (at those times) Ottawa only got better, Tampa Bay got better, and now Florida is getting better. I hope he stays here for a long time to see us develop. And I guess from your sentiments, that you should be praisng ALLA that he is no longer ruining the half team he helped create in Tampa. You know, the one your so proud of.

14) By the way, on a side note, I read your own post about how even you thought that Afansenkov should be in the minor's but he is a 2nd line winger.

15) Never was this a personal thing for me against Tampa Bay, but don't think you can come onto our board and spout some crap about our GM. He is building our team and he built some of yours. Like I said the proof is always in the pudding. And obviously, stats again don't lie. Enjoy.



You've worn out your welcome now, and I've worn out my foot from stomping a mudhole in you and the subsequent stress of taking it out and walking it dry. Sotnos my friend, you know what to do.

-Pete Choquette


That's right run and hide from your own words, again. All that is missing above would be a....?? WHAT!? It's "Stone Cold" Pete Choquette

:joker:

You went from:

- Criticising our GM and your former GM for some bad moves
- Then you said that Dudley never acquired anything of value
- Then you said the whole core of your team is Vinny, Brad, Jason, and Pavel.
- Then you went on to rip into former Lightning players (Vinny Prospal)
- Then you proved the whole player breakdown
- Then you called Dudley the Draft Master
- And now you want to run from it all.

I don't mind, it's probably better for you anyways. It sounds like you're all in a twist.

:D

TB fans are still at it, when will they ever learn? :shakehead

http://www.hfboards.com/showthread.php?threadid=22464&mode=linear&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I could care less about this whole thing.