Nathan Horton

canucksfan
10-16-2003, 08:06 PM
Do you guys think he will be sent down to junior or will he stay up for the rest of the year? Thanks in advance

evildreams
10-16-2003, 10:00 PM
Do you guys think he will be sent down to junior or will he stay up for the rest of the year? Thanks in advance

apparently, nate is the only cat with balls enough to take a beating in front of the opposition's net, so i'd say no way.

jacksheit
10-16-2003, 10:03 PM
apparently, nate is the only cat with balls enough to take a beating in front of the opposition's net, so i'd say no way.

I just read atthe palmbeachpost.com, that nate is prolly gonan b sent down.n i :rant: AGREE, he hasnt produced, he's tak'n penalties, n theres other more ready centers. like wiess, gree, mcdonald, and nederost.
I love nate, but he's just not handling it like JBO did

Coolburn
10-17-2003, 02:53 AM
If he is sent down, I will only have 3 words. But he's going to have some icetime in the next few games to prove he's able to handle it. In related news, Taticek registered his first point (an assist) last nite in the Rampage win. Weiss registered another assist himself (2pts in the 3 games). Green is got 2 pts in the 3 games thus far. Its pretty evident that if Horton is sent down, there's a good list of players ready to take the spot. I'm not saying that we'll be a better team without Horton but we also won't need to make a stupid trade to acquire a replacement either. With the groin injury, this hurts Cullen's trade value a lot and I was really hoping he'd get traded by Xmas.

Takkie
10-17-2003, 03:31 AM
I think horts has done well for a rookie, we should keep him up, because he will improve during the course of the season.him and Nilson are the only panthers forwards willing to park infront of the net, and we need those gritty physical players.

Thunderheart
10-17-2003, 05:53 AM
I think horts has done well for a rookie, we should keep him up, because he will improve during the course of the season.him and Nilson are the only panthers forwards willing to park infront of the net, and we need those gritty physical players.

Takkie....I agree! Horton is only going to get better this season and right now he is one of the few with cojones to go into the high traffic area in front of the goalie...have some patience! All he will do in Juniors is pick up bad habits because he will be able to dominate most nights!
Thunderheart

FlaPanthers7
10-17-2003, 06:19 AM
I agree 100% with ED. Horts is one of the few scoring line Panthers with enough grapefruits to constantly put himself in front of the net (you can include Olli and Nilson). He's had some great scoring opps already, and if the darn Panthers would actually shoot the puck on the net a little more it's only a matter of time before he bangs a few in.

Horts plays with energy, grit and fearlessness that shames some of the other Panthers who seem so timid about going to the net. He is exactly the kind of injection this team needs, and he's held his own so far. I've been very impressed with his play and I loved watching his effort against the Coyotes the other night when most other players looked half asleep.

Rock on Nate! :bow:

m2k2p
10-17-2003, 07:13 AM
I agree 100% with ED. Horts is one of the few scoring line Panthers with enough grapefruits to constantly put himself in front of the net (you can include Olli and Nilson). He's had some great scoring opps already, and if the darn Panthers would actually shoot the puck on the net a little more it's only a matter of time before he bangs a few in.

Horts plays with energy, grit and fearlessness that shames some of the other Panthers who seem so timid about going to the net. He is exactly the kind of injection this team needs, and he's held his own so far. I've been very impressed with his play and I loved watching his effort against the Coyotes the other night when most other players looked half asleep.

Rock on Nate! :bow:

I say they be patient with him. I think he will get a goal on this road trip and I love how he plays. He is not afraid of hitting anyone and getting in front of the net. He just needs to stay out of the box and release his shots sooner. I also think the Panthers should dress Campbell instead of Novo the next game. Campbell is a good gritty forward that we could use against a team like the Islanders.

Acadmus
10-17-2003, 07:44 AM
I just read atthe palmbeachpost.com, that nate is prolly gonan b sent down.n i :rant: AGREE, he hasnt produced, he's tak'n penalties, n theres other more ready centers. like wiess, gree, mcdonald, and nederost.
I love nate, but he's just not handling it like JBO did

I haven't read the article yet (will after typing this message), but what happened to Horton being moved up to second line center over Cullen? How has Keenan turned sour on him so soon?

Maybe the whole thing stems from Horton slacking off a bit, and Keenan's starting to play head games with him like he did with Weiss last year, but is being careful not to actually tell him he's going back to juniors like he did with Weiss, since he p***ed off Dudley by doing it.

sting_fan
10-17-2003, 08:18 AM
Horton should be sent down. I've said it since the start of training camp and will continue to say so. He looks slow out there, thinking way too much. He's also taking way too many penalties. Complain all you want about the officiating, but for the most part, he deserved to be sent to the sin bin.

Heimy
10-17-2003, 08:49 AM
Let's hold on another 4-5 games before we come to any conclusion. Horton's first game was his best and yes, he's been a bit less visible in subsequent starts. Still I like what he brings and can live with the PIMs while he figures things out. (the PK has been outstanding)

Question...was it Keenan or Dudley or both that said they wanted 1/2 more goals scored per game and 1/2 less given up?

Despite the high shot numbers we've allowed, the goals against have been very good. (thanks Roberto) But if they're serious about adding a 1/2 a goal a game they better bring up those sweet hands attached to Denis Shvidki. :teach:

Captain8
10-17-2003, 09:45 AM
Let's hold on another 4-5 games before we come to any conclusion. Horton's first game was his best and yes, he's been a bit less visible in subsequent starts. Still I like what he brings and can live with the PIMs while he figures things out. (the PK has been outstanding)

Question...was it Keenan or Dudley or both that said they wanted 1/2 more goals scored per game and 1/2 less given up?

Despite the high shot numbers we've allowed, the goals against have been very good. (thanks Roberto) But if they're serious about adding a 1/2 a goal a game they better bring up those sweet hands attached to Denis Shvidki. :teach:

That's why I think this year's training camp was mostly a failure -- because a player like Shvidki wasn't given a chance to emerge. Instead, the Panthers wasted their time with Hoglund, decided to reprise Val Bure, wanted to audition the likes of Horton and Stewart...

The latter is perhaps not worthy of significant blame because Horton and Stewart are ostensibly a big part of future plans, even if Horton winds up back in Oshawa. But when so many discussions focus on whether or not Shvidki or Novo or Bednar deserved some sort of consideration, it's obviously worth asking whether or not the team could afford to marginalize the players that offered the best chance, if properly integrated into the mix, of giving the team the additional offense it so badly needs.

All of this talk about depth lacks substance when you're hard-pressed to score two goals per game.

Acadmus
10-17-2003, 09:53 AM
Horton should be sent down. I've said it since the start of training camp and will continue to say so. He looks slow out there, thinking way too much. He's also taking way too many penalties. Complain all you want about the officiating, but for the most part, he deserved to be sent to the sin bin.

Sending Horton to juniors won't accomplish anything in his development. Being slow in decision making is common for players jumping to the NHL from juniors, and it stems from the difference in talent in the leagues. Juniors players are not all destined to be NHLers, and it shows on the ice where players have more time to make decisions and fancy plays. Sending Horton down won't teach him to be faster on his shot. It'll only reinforce the bad habits of juniors.

His penalties are no doubt because he wants to impress with his physical play, and has the inexperience of youth in terms of knowing what you can get away with. He'll learn. The trick is not to send him down, but to use him sparingly enough that he can get the icetime he needs to learn the game, but not so much that he's a liability.

Dave D
10-17-2003, 09:53 AM
I can't believe you want to send this kid down because he hasn't scored in three games. He has hit everything that moves, his face-off percentage is starting to climb. He hasn't been on the ice for a goal against since game 1 when he stepped out of the penalty box - a game in which he was plus 1. He drives the net both with the puck and without the puck - we don't have anybody on this team that consistently does that. His best game was the one when he had consistent line-mates. Since then he has been with Huselius and a variety of plugs from the AHL. Considering all this, he creates at least one good scoring opportunity every game, while playing in the tough areas of the ice... yeah lets get rid of him. LOL. As for his penalties, all that tells you is that he is involved, we could use a few more guys that involved. Horton isn't going anywhere but up the depth chart. This kid will find the net soon enough and when he does Sting_fan will be telling us he was the one who told us how great he was going to be with a little patience. Who we going to replace him with Weiss? Weiss hasn't found the net in two games in SA, and at least 6 games in the pre-season - yeah there's a step up. What a joke.

Heimy
10-17-2003, 10:03 AM
I can't believe you want to send this kid down because he hasn't scored in three games. He has hit everything that moves, his face-off percentage is starting to climb. He hasn't been on the ice for a goal against since game 1 when he stepped out of the penalty box - a game in which he was plus 1. He drives the net both with the puck and without the puck - we don't have anybody on this team that consistently does that. His best game was the one when he had consistent line-mates. Since then he has been with Huselius and a variety of plugs from the AHL. Considering all this, he creates at least one good scoring opportunity every game, while playing in the tough areas of the ice... yeah lets get rid of him. LOL. As for his penalties, all that tells you is that he is involved, we could use a few more guys that involved. Horton isn't going anywhere but up the depth chart. This kid will find the net soon enough and when he does Sting_fan will be telling us he was the one who told us how great he was going to be with a little patience. Who we going to replace him with Weiss? Weiss hasn't found the net in two games in SA, and at least 6 games in the pre-season - yeah there's a step up. What a joke.


Davd D

The LAST thing Stingfan would do is say something like that. Unlike you (at least in this post) he's consistently respectful of others and their opinions.

I know how much of a Horton fan you are but taking an unwarranted shot like that has no place on this board.

Heimy
10-17-2003, 10:10 AM
That's why I think this year's training camp was mostly a failure -- because a player like Shvidki wasn't given a chance to emerge. Instead, the Panthers wasted their time with Hoglund, decided to reprise Val Bure, wanted to audition the likes of Horton and Stewart...

The latter is perhaps not worthy of significant blame because Horton and Stewart are ostensibly a big part of future plans, even if Horton winds up back in Oshawa. But when so many discussions focus on whether or not Shvidki or Novo or Bednar deserved some sort of consideration, it's obviously worth asking whether or not the team could afford to marginalize the players that offered the best chance, if properly integrated into the mix, of giving the team the additional offense it so badly needs.

All of this talk about depth lacks substance when you're hard-pressed to score two goals per game.


I couldn't agree more Captain8. I can honestly say I'm FAR more disappointed in the mismanagement of fine talents like Shvidki and Bednar than I was at the botched up Mason/Hurme debacle. I'm still stunned over who was protected vs who was exposed. My fear is those moves speak to a financial crisis within this ownership group. I still can't (or refuse to) believe Dudley could be that inept.

Chaos2k7
10-17-2003, 11:07 AM
I couldn't agree more Captain8. I can honestly say I'm FAR more disappointed in the mismanagement of fine talents like Shvidki and Bednar than I was at the botched up Mason/Hurme debacle. I'm still stunned over who was protected vs who was exposed. My fear is those moves speak to a financial crisis within this ownership group. I still can't (or refuse to) believe Dudley could be that inept.


Actually, I believe the most surprising thing is that people still want to just hand Shvidki a scoring line role. The season is 4 games old. Sheesh... Talk about jumping the gun here. Nedorost hasn't even played a game Campbell has yet to play and we have MacDonald to insert instead of Ritchie. Not to mention Novoseltsev, Bednar. I have to admit I was impressed "in stretches" with the game Novo put together. And remember we still have Bure as well. Scoring won't explode but it will get better with a little health. Let's sit tight here people. I have seen flashes of brilliance and some bad plays by everyone.

But it is 4 games into the season and we are not that bad. Yet... Plus, it is obvious that they have some sort of chemistry in SA. Why break that up. Let them play 20-25 games and then we can judge what we need more clearly. There is a valuable reason why teams usually don't make vast roster changes before December.

I still have faith...

:yo:

Takkie
10-17-2003, 01:14 PM
i dont understand it either. people seem to just want to Gift Shvidki a scoring line spot because he has shown flashes of brilliance. if he keeps producing well in SA, then sure, bring him up. but dont give him a spot unless he has earned it.

Coolburn
10-17-2003, 03:12 PM
I don't like to read that people automatically think that if Horton is sent down, he'll just learn bad habits. Thats not necessarily true. Maybe he'll take what he's learned from the NHL and apply it to the OHL and lead the league in scoring. Really if it seems that Nathan isn't completely ready after this road trip then he should be demoted. While he'd be better served to be in the AHL, its just against the rules. I look at it like the situation with Weiss last yr...he needed the AHL and just couldn't go there either. Is it worth it to possibly stunt Horton's development like Weiss? Remember we have an extremely young team and we have a lot of prospects that are close to being NHL ready. Managing how all these guys develop is hard so don't expect the popular (read: what we all see as a good) thing to be the right thing.

I've been preaching this since early in the offseason with a few people agreeing...patience, patience, patience. Its just that this area isn't like most hockey towns where you can be the GM and tell the fans that boo a particular player to not come (I respected the Habs' GM a little more for that) because its not like people are fighting for tickets for a perennial losing team. The menality down here just isn't about hockey and it can be depressing to me. ****, just 10,000 showed up to the game against PHX and it wasn't a televised game...you'd think more would show up but the Marlins are in a penant race which takes precedence in this town. While I support the local sports teams including the Marlins, I spent more of the nite listening to the radio than watching the Marlins game because I had to work until 7:30 and couldn't go to the game.

MoeHowardDavid
10-17-2003, 03:13 PM
Davd D

The LAST thing Stingfan would do is say something like that. Unlike you (at least in this post) he's consistently respectful of others and their opinions.

I know how much of a Horton fan you are but taking an unwarranted shot like that has no place on this board.


You call that a shot? Please...

sting_fan
10-17-2003, 04:24 PM
Dave D., Horton not scoring in four games isn't the issue here. That is the least of my worries at the moment. My concern is that we're seeing a kid who isn't mental there yet, at least not for the NHL game. He's very slow on the puck, which is a knock against a lot of young guys coming into the league. But, with time, that will change. Need proof? Just take a look at how Ottawa has handled the development of Spezza. If Spezza wasn't good enough to make an NHL roster at 18, then I don't see why Horton is.

Horton's time will come. I'd like to believe two more good years of development and you'll see a solid NHL'er. Just as RichPanther said, we all need patience, patience, patience.

MoeHowardDavid
10-17-2003, 08:24 PM
Dave D., Horton not scoring in four games isn't the issue here. That is the least of my worries at the moment. My concern is that we're seeing a kid who isn't mental there yet, at least not for the NHL game. He's very slow on the puck, which is a knock against a lot of young guys coming into the league. But, with time, that will change. Need proof? Just take a look at how Ottawa has handled the development of Spezza. If Spezza wasn't good enough to make an NHL roster at 18, then I don't see why Horton is.

Horton's time will come. I'd like to believe two more good years of development and you'll see a solid NHL'er. Just as RichPanther said, we all need patience, patience, patience. By the way I'm a big fat idiot

Spezza didn't make it earlier because he's with the Ottawa Senators.

patastrophe
10-18-2003, 01:22 AM
I haven't read the article yet (will after typing this message), but what happened to Horton being moved up to second line center over Cullen? How has Keenan turned sour on him so soon?

Maybe the whole thing stems from Horton slacking off a bit, and Keenan's starting to play head games with him like he did with Weiss last year, but is being careful not to actually tell him he's going back to juniors like he did with Weiss, since he p***ed off Dudley by doing it.


this is just my opinion, but seeing the way keenan has handled his superiors in his other coaching/gm jobs, i have a hard time believing he gives much of a rats damn whether or not he gets on dudley's nerves. keenan has always been about one thing: free beer!

no, wait...
thats me.

i think keenan likes winning more than he likes friends and happy bosses.

patastrophe
10-18-2003, 01:29 AM
i dont understand it either. people seem to just want to Gift Shvidki a scoring line spot because he has shown flashes of brilliance. if he keeps producing well in SA, then sure, bring him up. but dont give him a spot unless he has earned it.



i agree with takkie here. also, hes right about people handing shvidki a scoring line spot...thats happened at the last THREE training camps running, and he wasnt able to do anything with it. why is everyone all of a sudden complaining when he gets sent down this year?

Coolburn
10-18-2003, 04:06 AM
i agree with takkie here. also, hes right about people handing shvidki a scoring line spot...thats happened at the last THREE training camps running, and he wasnt able to do anything with it. why is everyone all of a sudden complaining when he gets sent down this year?Maybe it had to do with his call-up at the end of the season last yr where he was the only guy standing in front of the net scoring goals (I remember 2 beautiful redirections). Not to mention in training camp when he was paired with Jokinen that he was tearing it up. Add on the fact that he's got good vision, amazing passing skills, a wicked wrister and has shown flashes of that when not injured and given a real chance. Then add to that, he's earning his spot back down in San Antonio thus far (3 games, 2 goals 2 assists). Its not like he's getting handed anything...he's earning it and I have no problem with that so why should anyone.

sting_fan
10-18-2003, 06:17 AM
Spezza didn't make it earlier because he's with the Ottawa Senators.

I'm sure if the Senators wanted Spezza in the lineup bad enough, they would have found room for him.

BTW, mind editing your post so the quote to my previous post is accurate?

Chaos2k7
10-18-2003, 07:19 AM
It has only been 3 games into this season. I agree Shvidki has preformed well but the guy hasn't even completed a full season in the last three. I would love to see Weiss and Nedorost and Shvidki back, but after 30-40 minimum. There are a lot of ups and downs in a season and that and consistentcy has always been a few of Shvidki's problems. No one here can debate against the fact that this kid has tremendous skills but show me consistentcy over a longer period of time.

:teach:

Coolburn
10-18-2003, 07:38 AM
It has only been 3 games into this season. I agree Shvidki has preformed well but the guy hasn't even completed a full season in the last three. I would love to see Weiss and Nedorost and Shvidki back, but after 30-40 minimum. There are a lot of ups and downs in a season and that and consistentcy has always been a few of Shvidki's problems. No one here can debate against the fact that this kid has tremendous skills but show me consistentcy over a longer period of time.

:teach:Remember the same thing was true of Jokinen before last season as well. He was never consistent before last yr and even his consistency faded towards the end (and even he admits it). I think it not only takes some consistency but also some confidence in himself and confidence from his coach that he can play well (the latter is probably the more important at this stage). While I agree to an extent that those guys needed some time in the AHL, if Shvidki continues to play well after 5-10 games, I see no reason why not to bring him up. The question is whether Keenan will show any faith in him and give him a chance as we know he plays favorites and Denis just isn't one of them.

Takkie
10-18-2003, 09:06 AM
we should have fired keenan and hired hartley as soon as hartley was available.and if shvidki continues is torrid AHL pace, than he deserves a call up to replace Bure on the second line

Chaos2k7
10-18-2003, 09:58 AM
we should have fired keenan and hired hartley as soon as hartley was available.and if shvidki continues is torrid AHL pace, than he deserves a call up to replace Bure on the second line


Not to diminish his accomplishments so far but 4 points in three games is far from a torrid pace. I mean the former AHL farmhand Matt Herr is a point per game player too and he didn't stick around too long either.

:dunno:

MoeHowardDavid
10-18-2003, 10:25 AM
I'm sure if the Senators wanted Spezza in the lineup bad enough, they would have found room for him.

BTW, mind editing your post so the quote to my previous post is accurate?

Ha, I just wanted to see if anyone would notice. Good catch there.

Crossbar
10-18-2003, 10:42 AM
Wasn't "Injure-me Shvidki" not getting picked up off waivers proof enough that you guys are overrating this kid just a tad bit? If he was as talented as you guys give him credit for then his salary would have been picked up by at least 3 different teams no problem...not even the guy who drafted him wanted him!! he doesn't deserve anything he must earn it and hes got to beat out Bednar to do it (not gonna happen IMO)

sting_fan
10-18-2003, 05:50 PM
Wasn't "Injure-me Shvidki" not getting picked up off waivers proof enough that you guys are overrating this kid just a tad bit? If he was as talented as you guys give him credit for then his salary would have been picked up by at least 3 different teams no problem...not even the guy who drafted him wanted him!! he doesn't deserve anything he must earn it and hes got to beat out Bednar to do it (not gonna happen IMO)

Shvidki wasn't picked up for the same reason Novoseltsev wasn't picked up; $$$$$$$$$. The teams that had the money to eat their salaries already had full rosters. Bednar not being picked up still puzzles me.

Although I like what I've seen from Bednar, Dudley's decision had more to do with money then it did talent. Bednar will make $500,000 no matter where he plays. Shvidki's still on a two-way contract. That being said, at this point, Shvidki and Bednar are a wash as far as on-ice production.

patastrophe
10-19-2003, 01:38 AM
Its not like he's getting handed anything...he's earning it and I have no problem with that so why should anyone.

thats what i was agreeing with takkie about...if he earns it.

Clash*
10-19-2003, 08:47 AM
Spezza didn't make it earlier because he's with the Ottawa Senators.

Explain why the Senators went out and acquired Brian Smolinski at the trade deadline last year, when Spezza was tearin up the AHL? Spezza had his time on and off with the Sens, but they still went and got Smoke even with Todd White, Mike Fisher, and Shawn Van Allen centerin three of their lines (Van Allen bein the checkin line). The third line center spot was evidently up for grabs to warrant the acquisition of Smoke. Hell, possibly the only reason Spezza is seein the ice time now is because Fisher is out with an injury, and White had somethin up with his shoulder. Don't think just because he's part of the Sens' organization that that's the only reason he wasn't in the NHL.

Clash*
10-19-2003, 08:53 AM
On the issue of Shvidki....

The kid has talent, no holds barred, but its how you use it, or even if you do use it, in actual games that matters. Team scrimmages and preseason don't mean jack squat, and short of the end of last season, Shvidki hasn't proven the right of havin a top line spot. He needs to show consistency and resolve to use those talents and to compete nite in and nite out at the AHL level before bein given a shot at the NHL level on any line.

As for Horton, and whether he should be sent down, yes of course he should. He needs to develop more discipline in his game first and foremost. Secondly, he needs to work on the intangibles. Yes, he brings somethin to this team we've sorely missed for a few seasons, but just read the posts here and on fanhome and the expectations for this kid. Unneeded pressure. I've said it once, and I'll say it again, bring him along slowly, cause this team as a whole isn't ready to compete, and expectin him to play second line center or be the savin grace of a physical game is demandin too much for an 18 yr old kid, who wasn't even considered superstar potential, the likes of a Heatley, Gaborik, or Kovalchuk when comin out into the draft.