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Reign Nateo 10-17-2003, 10:14 AM This is what seperates the Canucks from the top teams in the league: (all info based on current rosters)
Vancouver Canucks
Players aquired as Free Agents: LW Magnus Arvedson, RW Mike Keane, RW Jason King, C Mats Lindgren.
Players aquired thru trade: RW Todd Bertuzzi, G Dan Cloutier, G Johan Hedberg, D Ed Jovanovski, RW Trevor Linden, D Marek Malik, LW Brad May, C Brendan Morrison, D Sami Salo, C Henrik Sedin.
NHL assets used to aquire them: D Adrian Aucoin, C Alexander Polushin, RW Pavel Bure, D Bret Hedican, D Brad Ference, C Boyd Gordon, LW Jan Hlavac, RW Alexander Mogilny, LW Peter Schaefer, D Bryan McCabe, RW Pavel Vorobiev, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd round picks un used.
Players aquired thru draft: D Bryan Allen, C Artem Chubarov, LW Matt Cooke, D Mattias Ohlund, LW Daniel Sedin, D Brent Sopel.
Ottawa Senators
Players aquired as free agents: LW Jody Hull, C Todd White
Players aquired thru trade: G Patrick Lalime, D Bryan Pothier, D Zdeno Chara, D Wade Redden, D Curtis Leschyshyn, LW Peter Schaefer, C Bryan Smolinski, C Shaun Van Allen, LW Vaclav Varada, D Shane Hnidy, C Jason Spezza.
NHL assets used to aquire them: C Ted Donato, LW Shawn McEachern, C Alexei Yashin, C Martin Straka, D Bryan Berard, D Sami Salo, D Tim Gleason, C Jakub Klepis, 3rd and 8th round picks.
Players aquired thru draft: G Martin Prusek, RW Martin Havlat, RW Daniel Alfredsson, C Mike Fisher, C Radek Bonk, RW Marian Hossa, LW Petr Schastlivy, C Antoine Vermette, D Karel Rachunek, D Anton Volchenkov, LW Chris Neil, D Chris Phillips.
Spezza and Redden were really draft picks as well, but no brainers, and aquired thru trade.
The difference is drafting, that is what the Canucks must improve. Imagine this team if they weren't able to steal Naslund and Bertuzzi? Until the Canucks get better drafting, they will never be the type of team that the Sens are. The Sens look to be starting a dynasty as the youth just keep paying off.
H-Bear 10-17-2003, 11:24 AM Players aquired thru trade: RW Todd Bertuzzi, G Dan Cloutier, G Johan Hedberg, D Ed Jovanovski, RW Trevor Linden, D Marek Malik, LW Brad May, C Brendan Morrison, D Sami Salo, C Henrik Sedin.You left Naslund off this list. What was the trade again? Naslund for Sinoyajev (guessing here)?
colonel_korn 10-17-2003, 11:33 AM You left Naslund off this list. What was the trade again? Naslund for Sinoyajev (guessing here)?
Alex Stojanov.
He also left off Ruutu...a shocking oversight! ;). I guess he counts as draft, although the pick we drafted him with came in the Linden/Bertuzzi deal, if memory serves.
Mizral 10-17-2003, 11:36 AM What makes Ottawa a top team in the league over us, exactly? Playing in a weaker conference? Sorry, I like Ottawa, but they are no further along than we are.
Compare us to Detroit & New Jersey.
Every still, does it matter where we get our players? The key is not drafting. It's the play on the ice!
Mizral 10-17-2003, 11:37 AM You left Naslund off this list. What was the trade again? Naslund for Sinoyajev (guessing here)?
He also missed Jason King - I mean, if you're going to include Vermette...
colonel_korn 10-17-2003, 12:28 PM What makes Ottawa a top team in the league over us, exactly? Playing in a weaker conference? Sorry, I like Ottawa, but they are no further along than we are.
Compare us to Detroit & New Jersey.
Sorry, but by any objective standard Ottawa *is* further ahead of us. They've won the president's trophy AND made it to the conference finals, neither of which we've accomplished. They have better forward depth than us, comparable if not slightly better defence, and more proven goaltending. We're about where they were a year or two ago.
Compare us to Detroit and New Jersey? Please tell me you're joking. Both those teams have won THREE Stanley Cups since 94-95. We haven't even won three playoff rounds. :rolleyes:
We have a good team and have had one for the past 3 years or so, but let's try not to get ahead of ourselves...we still have a lot to prove.
He also missed Jason King - I mean, if you're going to include Vermette...
Um, look again...he's under 'acquired via free agency'
Connecticut 10-17-2003, 12:42 PM Um, look again...[King]'s under 'acquired via free agency'
We drafted Jason King. I think you might be thinking of Jesse Schultz.
Edler Von Gud 10-17-2003, 12:43 PM Sorry, but by any objective standard Ottawa *is* further ahead of us. They've won the president's trophy AND made it to the conference finals, neither of which we've accomplished. They have better forward depth than us, comparable if not slightly better defence, and more proven goaltending. We're about where they were a year or two ago.
Compare us to Detroit and New Jersey? Please tell me you're joking. Both those teams have won THREE Stanley Cups since 94-95. We haven't even won three playoff rounds. :rolleyes:
We have a good team and have had one for the past 3 years or so, but let's try not to get ahead of ourselves...we still have a lot to prove.
Um, look again...he's under 'acquired via free agency'
Well considering he was drafted by the Canucks, I think he should be listed under players aquired through the draft.
colonel_korn 10-17-2003, 01:15 PM Hey don't look at me, I didn't make the list :p. King is still on it though.
IceMelter 10-17-2003, 01:19 PM You could put H.Sedin, Linden and Slegr under draft as well, not just trades.
NFITO 10-17-2003, 01:36 PM the comparison doesn't make sense...
put any team against the sens, and if you're comparing drafting and developing from within, it'll make every team look bad...
Let's look at the Avs... generally a strong drafting team, still, their forwards, Forsberg, Sakic and Hedjuk are drafted, Tanguay was acquired via trade, and Kariya and Selanne UFAs... only dman there that was drafted is Foote... the rest are all trade acquisitions... even the guy that pretty much was most responsible for their Cups - Roy - was a trade... would they have won their Cups if they didn't acquire Roy in a trade?
even the top teams that went to the Cup, like Jersey, have made significant moves via trades, rather than just relying on drafting... last Cup was after the big deal getting Nieuwendyk the year before... the Cup before that happened after they acquired Mogilny... and these guys don't exactly play small roles on their team.
No question the Sens have been superior in drafting and developing their talent... we don't come close, but neither do nearly all of the other 28 teams!
Edler Statesman* 10-17-2003, 01:47 PM Even for trades, Stojanov we got in the draft, Bure we got in the draft, Linden we got in the draft.. so there's Bertuzzi, Naslund, and Jovanovski all trades from draft picks.
NFITO 10-17-2003, 01:54 PM Even for trades, Stojanov we got in the draft, Bure we got in the draft, Linden we got in the draft.. so there's Bertuzzi, Naslund, and Jovanovski all trades from draft picks.
I think you can say that about any player in the league.
we got Morrison from dealing Mogilny, who we got from dealing drafted players Peca and Wilson (and a pick that was McKee)...
essentially nearly all of the assets for all teams come from draft picks... there is a small percentage of players that were never drafted compartively - (Jersey seems to have a lot of luck with this with both Madden and Rafalski).
incawg 10-17-2003, 02:15 PM Let's look at the Avs... generally a strong drafting team, still, their forwards, Forsberg, Sakic and Hedjuk are drafted, Tanguay was acquired via trade, and Kariya and Selanne UFAs... only dman there that was drafted is Foote... the rest are all trade acquisitions...
Actually floppy was drafted by the flyers. He went to the avs in the infamous lindros deal. But the fact he was not drafted actually supports the point you were making :D
the comparison doesn't make sense...
put any team against the sens, and if you're comparing drafting and developing from within, it'll make every team look bad...
Let's look at the Avs... generally a strong drafting team, still, their forwards, Forsberg, Sakic and Hedjuk are drafted, Tanguay was acquired via trade, and Kariya and Selanne UFAs... only dman there that was drafted is Foote... the rest are all trade acquisitions... even the guy that pretty much was most responsible for their Cups - Roy - was a trade... would they have won their Cups if they didn't acquire Roy in a trade?
!
Couple things..
Tanguay was the Avs 1st pick in the 98 draft, not acquired via trade.
Forsberg was acquired via trade from Philly.
Skoula (D) was also drafted by the Avs.
Liles (D) also drafted.
Agreed however, that the Canucks trading record has been good and is the main reason they are one of the upper echelon teams in the west.
PhillyNucksFan 10-17-2003, 02:40 PM Consider the powerful Avs, or AKA Nordiques.. they were a powerful team before.. AND Forsberg thru trade?? well, look at what they have to trade for?? Lindros come to mind?!? Oh, they had Sundin as well and etc etc.. drafting does make a big difference.
But the main reason why and I hate to say this, Canucks is not an elite team.. its an excellent team, but NOT elite team enough..
Elite teams dont give the credit to canucks unless they have gone to the finals or consistantly winning.. OH, and a BETTER GOALTENDING for sure... I'm sorry, Cloutier just wont cut it and his reputation is weak!
do Avs or red wings or even the Wilds consider us an elite team?? NO!
I hate to say it, Canucks is a good team, but every other 29 teams believe they have a very good chance of beating canucks on any given night.. even down by a goal or 2...
I dont know.. some how, canucks is just not there.. I think we are currently at a stage Ottawa went thru 2 years ago.. but somewhat behind... I hate to say it, Cloutier won't bring us to the promised land, and he is too easily beatable and he alone gives the other team a chance.. :(
PecaFan 10-17-2003, 03:21 PM You could put H.Sedin, Linden and Slegr under draft as well, not just trades.
No, he's right about Henrik. Well, one of them anyways. We had only one draft pick going in, so without a trade, we don't get both. So one is a draft, one is a trade.
Slegr belongs under "signed as free agent", while Linden should be under both "traded" and "assets used to trade".
PecaFan 10-17-2003, 03:27 PM I dont know.. some how, canucks is just not there.. I think we are currently at a stage Ottawa went thru 2 years ago.. but somewhat behind...
You're right on this. We've been underachievers for the past few years, in essence been one year behind where we should have been.
Against Colorado, we should have won a game or two, but we were swept.
Against Detroit, we should have won that series after being up 2-0, but only won a game or two.
Against Stl/Min, we should have been in the conference final, but we only won a series.
You can make a good case that the reason for this is that Dan has been behind the development curve of the rest of the team. He's slowly been progressing, but not at the same rate.
Edler Statesman* 10-17-2003, 03:35 PM I think you can say that about any player in the league.
we got Morrison from dealing Mogilny, who we got from dealing drafted players Peca and Wilson (and a pick that was McKee)...
essentially nearly all of the assets for all teams come from draft picks... there is a small percentage of players that were never drafted compartively - (Jersey seems to have a lot of luck with this with both Madden and Rafalski).
I mean, as opposed to FA signings.
PhillyNucksFan 10-17-2003, 04:23 PM You're right on this. We've been underachievers for the past few years, in essence been one year behind where we should have been.
Against Colorado, we should have won a game or two, but we were swept.
Against Detroit, we should have won that series after being up 2-0, but only won a game or two.
Against Stl/Min, we should have been in the conference final, but we only won a series.
You can make a good case that the reason for this is that Dan has been behind the development curve of the rest of the team. He's slowly been progressing, but not at the same rate.
I dont want to just jump on the blame on Cloutier.. but he plays a big part of the team success... and I dont think any team is respecting Cloutier, and all of them are all counting on Cloutier to make mistake.. people say Canucks is a good team, but I dont think i ever hear a comment about the opposition caoch saying Cloutier is great, and he saved the game.. maybe a couple times in the past 3 years!?
anyway, simply not enough!.. very frustrating, and I love the canucks!! just really frustrating :rant:
Reign Nateo 10-19-2003, 09:25 PM I wasn't attempting to compare Vancouver in Ottawa in the sense that you guys have turned it into, just highlight the major difference between an elite team and the Canucks, in a similar boat they have a better team. Why? Because they draft a lot better and don't have to use assets on trades.
If we could get past arguing over the particulars of the list and consider the question I think this thread would be more useful.
Ottawa has a better, cheaper team and they owe it to good drafting.
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