Jovo For Norris?

Does Jovo have a shot at the Norris this year or will Lidstrom make it four in a row?

http://www.unitedmacedonians.org/images/ed_jovanovski.jpg

Not a chance.. There's no way he's better of provides more of an impact then Lidstrom, Pronger, Zubov, Gonchar, Blake or Niedermayer, and this is with MacInnis and Hatcher out.

He has a simular shot as Wade Redden.. both are simular in terms of age, capabilities and have a same team situation. Yet Redden is never ever pegged as a current Norris threat, goes to show how overrated Jovo is around here.

Not a chance.. There's no way he's better of provides more of an impact then Lidstrom, Pronger, Zubov, Gonchar, Blake or Niedermayer, and this is with MacInnis and Hatcher out.

He has a simular shot as Wade Redden.. both are simular in terms of age, capabilities and have a same team situation. Yet Redden is never ever pegged as a current Norris threat, goes to show how overrated Jovo is around here.

What, no Numminen, Sweeney, Matvichuk, Robidas, Boucher in that list of guy's he's got no chance of beating?

I wouldn't vote "No, not a chance", but Jovo will always be under consideration, but I would class D-men like Lidstrom, Pronger, MacInnis as #1a

...and guys like Gonchar, Jovo as #1b. The latter don't have the same uncanny ability to turn games as the guys in #1a IMO.

Give jovo time.

It could happen in a couple years.

Jovanovski has a shot to get nominated. And you never know, if Lidstrom breaks his leg or something...

Jovo has been in the top 10 for Norris trophy voting the last two seasons(6th two years ago, 5th last year) and is only getting better as he gets older. That said, I think Lidstrom will win for the 4th straight time.

I don't think he is a top 3 candidate for another season or two. He still needs work on his defensive zone play (goes for the big hit instead of making the smart positional defensive play).

I don't think he is a top 3 candidate for another season or two. He still needs work on his defensive zone play (goes for the big hit instead of making the smart positional defensive play).

Jovo hasn't done that for about a year now. He's rarely put out of position by going for the big hit, something he used to do to frequently in the past.

Jovo rules!! :yo: I love the way he plays....He is such a threat when hes on the ice. I havent seen him cough it up yet :handclap: I think hes the hardest working Canuck!

Jovo rules!! :yo: I love the way he plays....He is such a threat when hes on the ice. I havent seen him cough it up yet :handclap: I think hes the hardest working Canuck!

You better not be saying this in toungue and cheeck :dunno:

What, no Numminen, Sweeney, Matvichuk, Robidas, Boucher in that list of guy's he's got no chance of beating?

Yeah.. include them too..

Not a chance.. There's no way he's better of provides more of an impact then Lidstrom, Pronger, Zubov, Gonchar, Blake or Niedermayer, and this is with MacInnis and Hatcher out.

He has a simular shot as Wade Redden.. both are simular in terms of age, capabilities and have a same team situation. Yet Redden is never ever pegged as a current Norris threat, goes to show how overrated Jovo is around here.

Actually, Jovo is rated much higher around the league than he is here, so your last comment just shows how much you overrate your opinion.

Most of the posts I read here, not all of course, but most, are well aware of Jovo's short comings with his game, and discuss them frequently. There is a fair amount of debate as to who is actually the better D between Ohlund and Jovo.

Jovo is a much different player than Redden, and plays in a completely different system, so other than age I don't really see how they compare. Oh yeah, they both wear skates too. Ed gets way more scoring opportunities, but his plus minus also takes a beating... he's also a much tougher player, and hits more. I like Redden alot, and he is very important for the Sens, and it could very well be that like Ohlund his play is not as respected as much as it should be.

Yeah.. include them too..

And the guy who carries the bags of pucks for the stars :joker:

I'd put Jovo in the second tier of NHL defensemen. The first tier? Lidstrom. He's in a league of his own. The other players mentioned - Blake, Foote, Zubov, Niedermayer, Gonchar, etc - don't have a chance of winning the Norris just like Jovo doesn't if Lidstrom plays like he can. The only one that could challenege him is a healthy Pronger...but I really don't think that Pronger is ever going to return to his pre-injury form.

Not this season.....Lidstrom will take it in my mind....in the future, it is definately possible

I'd put Jovo in the second tier of NHL defensemen. The first tier? Lidstrom. He's in a league of his own. The other players mentioned - Blake, Foote, Zubov, Niedermayer, Gonchar, etc - don't have a chance of winning the Norris just like Jovo doesn't if Lidstrom plays like he can. The only one that could challenege him is a healthy Pronger...but I really don't think that Pronger is ever going to return to his pre-injury form.

Well, I think the thing to watch with Jovo, is do we continue to see more improvement. If any of the players mentioned above have excellent seasons, then they could win the Norris over Lidstrom. Lidstrom rarely makes mistakes, and that benifits him enormously when the voting comes in (not to mention his team!). I really don't see how anyone can say that "the only one who can challange him..... " Any of those guys could have better seasons than Lidstrom. He's not that much better than the other guys. Certainly last season you could have argued reasonably that Al deserved the Norris more than Lidstrom, but once a guy is popular, he often gets a higher rating than the next guy. To some degree Jovo benifits from this. I wouldn't rate him as high as many in the media do... but that still doesn't mean he can't put together a fantastic season.

I really don't see how anyone can say that "the only one who can challange him..... " Any of those guys could have better seasons than Lidstrom. He's not that much better than the other guys. Certainly last season you could have argued reasonably that Al deserved the Norris more than Lidstrom, but once a guy is popular, he often gets a higher rating than the next guy.

Well, of course any defender "can" win the Norris but my point is that if Lidstrom continues to play the way he can, he is in his own tier. It's conceivable that any of the guys on the tier below him could join him - if they have ridiculously good seasons. Alternatively, Lidstrom could get injured or have a terrible year. None of these things are likely, however.

The comparison to big al last year is a decent one in this regard. Despite his amazing year, Lidstrom won the Norris anyway (and deservedly so). Moreover, much of the attention for al was because of sentimental reasons imo.

To me, Lidstrom is the best defender in this league and it isn't even close.

Not a chance.. There's no way he's better of provides more of an impact then Lidstrom, Pronger, Zubov, Gonchar, Blake or Niedermayer, and this is with MacInnis and Hatcher out.

you do know that Jovo beat out Zubov, Pronger, and Niedermayer in Norris voting last season right? and that he was VERY close to Blake in votes and should have beaten him (Blake also had no first or second place votes... was saved by a lot of people who voted him in 5th).

but of course that's because he's overrated league-wide. or maybe just perhaps it's because a Canuck player is actually good. but you would never admit to that would you? how about we create a new award. the anti-Canuck award. you'd deffinately be a top-3 nominee, but i doubt you'd beat out evman150.

i very much doubt Jovo will be a top-3 nominee for the Norris this season (down the road i definately do). i wouldn't bet lots of money against it however.

So who is the better defenceman : Jovo or Ohlund.

For my money Jovo is somewhat overrated and Ohlund, perhaps because of his injuries, is totally underrated. I like them both but Ohlund is a rock of a D man and better all around than Jovo.

So who is the better defenceman : Jovo or Ohlund.

For my money Jovo is somewhat overrated and Ohlund, perhaps because of his injuries, is totally underrated. I like them both but Ohlund is a rock of a D man and better all around than Jovo.

this is a tricky question. Jovanovski is deffinately the "better" defensemen. Ohlund, however, is our #1 defensemen.

Ed Jovanovski leads the team with 1 goal, and 4 assists, 5 points.

He was excellent tonight in all situations. How anyone can say this guy is poor defensivly is beyond me. Hits, scores, fights, plays great D, plays all situations. I love Ohlund. My favorite Canuck along with Morrison. But Jovanovski is THE best defenseman on this team.

Well, of course any defender "can" win the Norris but my point is that if Lidstrom continues to play the way he can, he is in his own tier. It's conceivable that any of the guys on the tier below him could join him - if they have ridiculously good seasons. Alternatively, Lidstrom could get injured or have a terrible year. None of these things are likely, however.

The comparison to big al last year is a decent one in this regard. Despite his amazing year, Lidstrom won the Norris anyway (and deservedly so). Moreover, much of the attention for al was because of sentimental reasons imo.

To me, Lidstrom is the best defender in this league and it isn't even close.

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Yeah, I got that from your earlier comment. I just don't buy into this different tier thing, with Lidstrom all alone on top. I thought Al MacInnis's season was just as good as Lidstroms, and he's an old man in comparison. He really helped keep the Blues D solid with Pronger out for the season, and really did a lot to help what's his face win top rookie honours. Remember Al played most of the season with a rookie. That makes him more deserving of the Norris IMO.

Lidstrom is a great defender absolutely! But he's also flavour of week (heh... so to speak), and of the top players you mentioned, any of them should be concidered to share the same tier. Lidstrom rarely ever hits.... does that matter? Some would say it does, and that's about the only thing you can say he doesn't do. There is no up or down with his game... he's remarkably consistant. For that alone, I believe many people choose him over another defeneder for the Norris. In a manner of speaking, he's the safe choice.

Having said all that, he seemed just phenomenal against the Nucks in Detroit.

If Lidsrtom plays as well this season as he has in the past, and the other top D play as good as they are known to, then I think it will be difficult to choose one over the other.

Ed Jovanovski leads the team with 1 goal, and 4 assists, 5 points.

He was excellent tonight in all situations. How anyone can say this guy is poor defensivly is beyond me. Hits, scores, fights, plays great D, plays all situations. I love Ohlund. My favorite Canuck along with Morrison. But Jovanovski is THE best defenseman on this team.

I would say that Jovanovski has more "upside" (flashier... can change the tempo of the game, takes bigger risks), while Ohlund is more consistant and subtle. Who you choose to be #1 likely says a bit about ones own character.

What impresses me a great deal about both, is they are both showing big improvements with their games. Ohlund coming off a major knee injury looks incredibley solid and confident out there, while Jovo is reading the ice well and playing in every part of the rink. Ohlund often jumps into the play, but Jovo flies into it. It's really quite amazing having those two guys on two different lines.

But he's also flavour of week (heh... so to speak), and of the top players you mentioned, any of them should be concidered to share the same tier. Lidstrom rarely ever hits.... does that matter? Some would say it does, and that's about the only thing you can say he doesn't do. There is no up or down with his game... he's remarkably consistant. For that alone, I believe many people choose him over another defeneder for the Norris. In a manner of speaking, he's the safe choice.

Lidstrom plays 30 minutes a night, has the lowest PIM of any defender in the league, has consitently one of the best +/-, kills penalties, and anchors the powerplay. There is not a single other defender in the league that can do all that at the level that Lidstrom does. The only knock on him, as you say, would be his lack of physical play. But he more than compensates for that with his stick checking, which is by far the best in the league. He's not the "flavor of the month" he's the "flavor of the last 12 years".

My point was that the Norris is his to lose. There is zero doubt on my mind that this is true. Jovo is right with guys like Zubov in the next "pack" of players...but there is a significant gap.

Lidstrom plays 30 minutes a night, has the lowest PIM of any defender in the league, has consitently one of the best +/-, kills penalties, and anchors the powerplay. There is not a single other defender in the league that can do all that at the level that Lidstrom does. The only knock on him, as you say, would be his lack of physical play. But he more than compensates for that with his stick checking, which is by far the best in the league. He's not the "flavor of the month" he's the "flavor of the last 12 years".

My point was that the Norris is his to lose. There is zero doubt on my mind that this is true. Jovo is right with guys like Zubov in the next "pack" of players...but there is a significant gap.

Look... not to quibble here, as it is clear that we differ in regard to the degree you want to put Lidstrom ahead of other top defence men.

First, the flavour comment was said tongue in cheek, but stands as for why he gets chosen over other D's with similiar stats. He's easy to pick for all the reasons you mention, and he rarely if ever makes mistakes. I'm not exactly sure what 12 years you refer to, as certainly you must admit that he has developed during his play in the league, and didn't arrive playing as good as he is now?

As the winner of the Norris for the past three years, sure you can say it's his to lose. Fine. But once a guy has got attention, he tends to keep getting it, and in the end, awards like the Norris do end up being, at least partially, popularity contests. For example, last season I don't think Zubov was a finalist, and yet I doubt his stats are a whole lot different than Lidstoms, and he certainly can play the same minutes if required. He's a superlative passer and QB's a pp effortlessly. I really don't see how you see the two being all that different.

I'm sorry, but we'll have to disagree on Lidstrom, because I feel he's just one of a group of elite defence men.

IMO, Jovo has yet to prove he can play a whole season at that level.

First, the flavour comment was said tongue in cheek, but stands as for why he gets chosen over other D's with similiar stats.

See, I think you're selling him short. What other defenseman had similar stats to Lidstrom? He was a +40 last year. Even MacInnis, having his ridiculously good season, was only +22. And the stats don't even tell the whole story. Lidstrom is the best d-man in the league defensively and he still chips in 60-75 points every year. There may be defenders that are as good as him offensively and perhaps some that are in the same league defensively, but certainly none that have the whole package.

He's easy to pick for all the reasons you mention, and he rarely if ever makes mistakes.

I really don't understand your point here. You've said several times that he's the "safe" pick. A defenseman isn't supposed to make mistakes. He gets picked because he's the best defender in the league on a consistent basis. The fact that he's a non-flashy soft-spoken european should make it harder to win since awards tend to go to flashy players.

But once a guy has got attention, he tends to keep getting it, and in the end, awards like the Norris do end up being, at least partially, popularity contests. For example, last season I don't think Zubov was a finalist, and yet I doubt his stats are a whole lot different than Lidstoms, and he certainly can play the same minutes if required. He's a superlative passer and QB's a pp effortlessly. I really don't see how you see the two being all that different.

I don't buy this "attention" argument. Lidstrom has earned his recognition. I'm sure it is a popularity contest, but to imply that Lidstrom hasn't earned his past 3 Norris victories seems somewhat silly. Lidstrom is not a flashy player either - typically the ones selected in such popularity contests - so the argument holds even less water.

Zubov has nothing - absolutely nothing - on Lidstrom defensively. Offensively, they're similar. But defensively they're not even in the same ballpark. Last year Zubov was +21 and Lidstrom was +40. Once again, that doesn't even tell the whole story. If giveaway stats were still being kept, Lidstrom would be near the bottom while Zubov would be near the top.

I'm sorry, but we'll have to disagree on Lidstrom, because I feel he's just one of a group of elite defence men.

It all depends on how you're grouping them. Sure if you make your "top tier" large enough, it will include several players. Personally I think it's counterproductive to do so, since there is a logical divide there between Lidstrom and the rest.

Lidstrom deserves every bit of recognition he's earned as the league top rearguard. How this guy can log 30 minutes plus of icetime a night against most of the top players in the league and post as few penalty minutes as he does is astounding. That means he doesn't have to resort to the hooking, clutching, grabbing, slashing, etc to slow down his opposition that most defensemen do. He's so positionally sound and strong, that it's almost a machine like precision. Add in his excellent offensive skills and you have one of the league's top players, not just defensemen.

Jovanovski could win a nomination, but yeah, I don't see him beating out Lidstrom any time soon.

Jovo rocks, but he cannot snatch the pebbles from Lidstrom's hand just yet.

:yo:JOVO:yo: We are amazed.


:bow:LIDSTROM:bow: We are not not worthy.

:bow:LIDSTROM:bow: We are not not worthy.Yet. ;)

Not a chance.. There's no way he's better of provides more of an impact then Lidstrom, Pronger, Zubov, Gonchar, Blake or Niedermayer, and this is with MacInnis and Hatcher out.

He has a simular shot as Wade Redden.. both are simular in terms of age, capabilities and have a same team situation. Yet Redden is never ever pegged as a current Norris threat, goes to show how overrated Jovo is around here.

Not a chance? Last season Jovo was 5th in voting despite missing 4 weeks.

Is he the favorite? Not IMO.

Does he have a chance....uhhhhh yeah.

earned[/i] his recognition. I'm sure it is a popularity contest, but to imply that Lidstrom hasn't earned his past 3 Norris victories seems somewhat silly. Lidstrom is not a flashy player either - typically the ones selected in such popularity contests - so the argument holds even less water.

.

You are missing the point! I never said or implied that Lidsrtom didn't deserve to win for the past three years. At the very most, I've said that I thought Al MacInnis was a better candidate because he played the season with a rookie. So most of your posts are about something I've not said.

All I'm saying is that Lidstrom isn't heads and tails above the other six or seven guys mentioned. If you want to pull out all the stats from the past three years, I am certain that every season there are guys who are at least fairly close to the same.

You seem intent on convincing yourself that I don't understand how good Lidstrom is. Well forget it. If you can't see my point, so it goes. ;) It's a very minor disagreement over rating the best defensemen in the league.

[quote]
It all depends on how you're grouping them. Sure if you make your "top tier" large enough, it will include several players. Personally I think it's counterproductive to do so, since there is a logical divide there between Lidstrom and the rest.[quote]

:rolleyes: It's counter productive to disagree with you? Well, your "logic" has convinced me! Sorry, but using a higher plus minus for one season as an example, and then missunderstanding what I've written doesn't constitute logic.

The top tier includes maybe six players. You choose who you want to put in. Is Lidsrtom better than all those guys? Sure, sometimes. Is he in a class all by himself? According to you, yes. According to me? No, not really. If you see this as a huge giant failure on my part to understand hockey, then go right ahead.

A defender who can initimidate physically, say like Scott Stevens, adds an ability to pump up his team, as well as making the opposition warry of coming into zone to pick up pucks. I'm not really certain the overall value of this, but it's something that never shows up on the stats.

Lidstrom is remarkably consistant, but to say there is a *large* gap between him and the rest of the "elite" d-men, is giving him too much credit. He's good, but he is NOT a Bobby Orr. He is not so much better than the rest that you cannot even question it. I do think Lidstrom is #1, by a hair over Pronger/MacInnis. But its awfully close.

You are missing the point! I never said or implied that Lidsrtom didn't deserve to win for the past three years. At the very most, I've said that I thought Al MacInnis was a better candidate because he played the season with a rookie. So most of your posts are about something I've not said.

Then I'm really not sure what your point is. You kept saying that Lidstrom was the "safe" choice and that he benefited from being the "flavor of the month"/the fact that the Norris is a popularity contest. If this isn't implying that he was somehow not as deserving of his Norris trophy, then I have no idea what you are trying to say. And btw, saying that "Al MacInnis was a better candidate" is saying that Lidstrom didn't deserve the Norris.

All I'm saying is that Lidstrom isn't heads and tails above the other six or seven guys mentioned. If you want to pull out all the stats from the past three years, I am certain that every season there are guys who are at least fairly close to the same.

The statistics firmly reinforce Lidstrom's position as consistently the best defender in the league. And as I stated before, in my opinion (and I'm confident I'm in the majority), the statistics don't even do him justice.


It all depends on how you're grouping them. Sure if you make your "top tier" large enough, it will include several players. Personally I think it's counterproductive to do so, since there is a logical divide there between Lidstrom and the rest.

:rolleyes: It's counter productive to disagree with you? Well, your "logic" has convinced me! Sorry, but using a higher plus minus for one season as an example, and then missunderstanding what I've written doesn't constitute logic.

Woah there cowboy. It's not counterproductive to disagree with me per se but it is counterproductive to expand the top tier of NHL defenseman to be so large to include 5-6 other players along with Lidstrom. The entire point of a tiering system is to make meaningful differentiations between groups of players. In statistical terms, when you include "the next 5 guys" with Lidstrom, the within-group variability becomes greater than the between-group variability and the grouping loses meaning.

A defender who can initimidate physically, say like Scott Stevens, adds an ability to pump up his team, as well as making the opposition warry of coming into zone to pick up pucks. I'm not really certain the overall value of this, but it's something that never shows up on the stats.

Yeh, Lidstrom lacks physical play and that is a justified shot on him. There's two points to consider here, however. The first is that his insane stick checking abilities makes it unnecessary - from a defensive perspective - to be physical. The second is that the flipside is that while physical players often end up leaving their teams short-handed, Lidstrom takes less penalty minutes than almost anyone in the league.

The topic of this thread is whether Jovo has a "chance to win the Norris". My original point was that, imo, he has as much of a chance as guys like Zubov, Niedermayer, etc. Yes, I think all of these players "have a chance". They are, however, are sufficiently far behind Lidstrom that the Norris is Lidstrom's to lose. When you look at the total package, nobody comes close to Lidstrom as far as I'm concerned. Clearly you disagree and that's your prerogative.

He is not so much better than the rest that you cannot even question it. I do think Lidstrom is #1, by a hair over Pronger/MacInnis. But its awfully close.

Post-injury pronger is only a hair behind Lidstrom? Do you think that post-injury big al will still be (if he ever plays again)?

I'll admit that last year MacInnis was relatively close. But even in a season where Al overachieved significantly, he still didn't outperform Lidstrom. That speaks volumes to me and is really my point: the Norris trophy is Lidstrom's to lose. Forget about all of the tiering talk since it's just semantics anyway. It's like that dumb power forward definition debate going on in the main forum :)

The other thing I said earlier was that Pronger was the only one I felt could challenge Lidstrom on a consistent basis. That is, of course, pre-injury pronger and imo he's no longer the same player. That's not to say he can't return to form, but he hasn't yet and it doesn't seem too likely.

Yeah.. include them too..

i know thats a joke but....i have noticed how biased you are sometimes. jovanovski isnt bad, better than most. i would rate only zubov, lidstrom, macinnis, gonchar, neidermayer over him. pronger and blake are not close to as good as they used to be. blake is ALWAYS out of position going for the big hit. Pronger has slowed down thanks to injuries and "crackdowns" on stuff. hatcher MAYBE is better but his offense is much worse. I voted he has a shot...because we never know what will happen(which we sometimes forget)

Post-injury pronger is only a hair behind Lidstrom? Do you think that post-injury big al will still be (if he ever plays again)?

I'll admit that last year MacInnis was relatively close. But even in a season where Al overachieved significantly, he still didn't outperform Lidstrom. That speaks volumes to me and is really my point: the Norris trophy is Lidstrom's to lose. Forget about all of the tiering talk since it's just semantics anyway. It's like that dumb power forward definition debate going on in the main forum :)

The other thing I said earlier was that Pronger was the only one I felt could challenge Lidstrom on a consistent basis. That is, of course, pre-injury pronger and imo he's no longer the same player. That's not to say he can't return to form, but he hasn't yet and it doesn't seem too likely.

I still don't even think he is *that* much better than Zubov/Niedermayer/Jovanovski. He is better, IMO, but I don't see how you can call him "in his own tier". It is just semantics though. I'd be pretty surprised if anyone else won the Norris though, although mostly because there are so few great d-men these days.

Heh, this is kind of fun! I should disagree with you more often. ;) Ok, lemme see if I can explain things more clearly than I have...


Then I'm really not sure what your point is. You kept saying that Lidstrom was the "safe" choice and that he benefited from being the "flavor of the month"/the fact that the Norris is a popularity contest. If this isn't implying that he was somehow not as deserving of his Norris trophy, then I have no idea what you are trying to say. And btw, saying that "Al MacInnis was a better candidate" is saying that Lidstrom didn't deserve the Norris. [quote]

My point is: I don't think that Lidstrom is much better than than other top Defensmen in the NHL. I've said this in almost every post, so I don't see how there can be any confussion.

I said "flavour of the week". It's an idiom. I also explained that I meant it to be kind of funny. The humour is that he's been at the top of the league for years, so ha ha, how could he actually be popular for only one week. Maybe I shouldn't try to be funny?

I THINK Al MacInnis is more deserving of the Norris last season. It's just my opinion. But I also feel that Lidstrom and the others (except Hatcher, who is truly overrated), nominees are valid choices as well. Like I keep saying, the top guys are all pretty bloody good at what they do. Only one defenceman wins the award, and I would say and do say, that if you are the "type" of player Lidstrom is, ie consistant, great stats, and a past winner, well that makes it easier to go with again. I have nooooo idea if this is true. But it seems that's how noteriety and popularity work. Again, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the award, or that he isn't a great player. Just that these kind of minor things may come into play.

You say that Lidstrom is much better... again... this is what I disagree with. Just that. Only that. Nothing more.


[quote] The statistics firmly reinforce Lidstrom's position as consistently the best defender in the league. And as I stated before, in my opinion (and I'm confident I'm in the majority), the statistics don't even do him justice. [quote]

Statistics are all fine and dandy, but they're far from accurate. I'm not saying, don't pay attention to them... just don't use them as the only critiria. Example? Lidstrom plays for the Wings, one of the deepest and most veteran teams in the league. Lidstrom would be just as good a player on, say Nashville, and yet it is extremely unlikely that his stats would be as good.


[quote] Woah there cowboy. It's not counterproductive to disagree with me per se but it is counterproductive to expand the top tier of NHL defenseman to be so large to include 5-6 other players along with Lidstrom. The entire point of a tiering system is to make meaningful differentiations between groups of players. In statistical terms, when you include "the next 5 guys" with Lidstrom, the within-group variability becomes greater than the between-group variability and the grouping loses meaning. [quote]

For someone who hasn't rode a great deal, I'm not a bad rider.. but cowboy? hmmm.....

Mario, Wayne, Orr... ok. Those guys have their own tiers. That's the crux of our disagreement. I don't think Lidstrom is better than Scott Stevens. He's a completely different kind of player, but not any more valuable. Pronger, a guy you have mentioned is also as close if not as good. Brent Sopel? heh. There are five or six guys who are just as good, and that's the difference we are addressing.



[quote] Yeh, Lidstrom lacks physical play and that is a justified shot on him. There's two points to consider here, however. The first is that his insane stick checking abilities makes it unnecessary - from a defensive perspective - to be physical. The second is that the flipside is that while physical players often end up leaving their teams short-handed, Lidstrom takes less penalty minutes than almost anyone in the league. [quote]

I wasn't trying to take a shot at Lidstrom! I like his style, and he has no need to be making big hits. You've explained his game very well. I only brought it up as an example of different styles of play... I don't think it's a weakness in his game at all. If we were talking Hatcher, and he didn't play physical, well then that's a completely different matter. I may have also mentioned it as something that doesn't show up on the stats.

[quote] The topic of this thread is whether Jovo has a "chance to win the Norris". My original point was that, imo, he has as much of a chance as guys like Zubov, Niedermayer, etc. These players, however, are sufficiently far behind Lidstrom that the Norris is Lidstrom's to lose. When you look at the total package, nobody comes close to Lidstrom as far as I'm concerned. Clearly you disagree and that's your prerogative.

Personally I don't think Jovo is as good as Lidstrom, Zubov, Niedermayer, Pronger, Stevens, MacInnis and maybe Foote. If Jovanovski has an impeccable season, sure he could win the Norris, but I don't think he will. If he keeps developing, then there a chance he could develop into a top tier guy, and then give the other guys a good run for their money.

I also feel that Lidstrom has an excellent chance to win this season, but don't feel hr is a whole lot better than the players just mentioned.


A question: how do you get the lines to appear when you make replys to another poster?

Thanks :D

Just for the fun of it:

Jovanovski did have a better PPG average than Sergei Zubov last year. 0.69 to 0.66!

Put that in your pipe and smoke it Modonna=God!LOL

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I consider Lidstrom the best player in the NHL today, so that probably has something to do with my position. I keep holding onto the faint hope that when his contract expires he'll join Team Ikea :D


A question: how do you get the lines to appear when you make replys to another poster?

Just fiddle around with the quote tags. Do a preview before you post to see if it works. The code in general is:
quote in here"

Quoting quotes gets kind of confusing though :)

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I consider Lidstrom the best player in the NHL today, so that probably has something to do with my position. I keep holding onto the faint hope that when his contract expires he'll join Team Ikea :D



Just fiddle around with the quote tags. Do a preview before you post to see if it works. The code in general is:
quote in here"

Quoting quotes gets kind of confusing though :)

Thanks, I'll give it a go_quote ! :joker:

Yeah, forget the all Russian team, the Nucks are well down the Swedish Road. How much longer do the Wings have him signed for? More importantly,does he know Lingren? Heh.... he seems to be able to convince players to come here for less money.

A question: how do you get the lines to appear when you make replys to another poster?


Select the sentence/paragraph that you want to quote and then click on the IMG]http://www.hfboards.com/images/wysiwyg/vB_Quote.gif[/IMG] on your tool bar. The quote will automatically appear with the proper tags.[

A question: how do you get the lines to appear when you make replys to another poster?

Thanks :D


Select the sentence/paragraph that you want to quote and then click on the http://www.hfboards.com/images/wysiwyg/vB_Quote.gif on your tool bar. The quote will automatically appear with the proper tags.

Jovo's stats:

6 GP 1G 4A 15 PIM +5

:bow: :bow: :bow:

Select the sentence/paragraph that you want to quote and then click on the http://www.hfboards.com/images/wysiwyg/vB_Quote.gif

on your tool bar. The quote will automatically appear with the proper tags.

Hey Thanks !

arrrrrrrggggghhhhhhh!:mad:

What a bunch of homers some are .... Quat - if Jovo wasn't playing for Vancouver how many would be touting him for the Norris on this board?

Still too much "Special Ed" in his play - but he sure looks fine as a Canuck, or hanging with Mike Recci and Betty Windsor in his Team Canada sweater.:rolleyes:

arrrrrrrggggghhhhhhh!:mad:

What a bunch of homers some are .... Quat - if Jovo wasn't playing for Vancouver how many would be touting him for the Norris on this board?

Still too much "Special Ed" in his play - but he sure looks fine as a Canuck, or hanging with Mike Recci and Betty Windsor in his Team Canada sweater.:rolleyes:

Sorry Hobokian one, have I offended? I wasn't touting Jovo for Norris, in fact I was saying he was still a tier below the group of guys one might keep an eye on to contend for it. I think I may have written that if Jovo played a flawless season (which I don't think he will, but sure hope he does!), then you might put his name up for concideration... But that's hardly like putting the guy on a pedestal. Not much different than saying if he scores 50 goals he might win the Rocket Richard :teach:

Please read before angrying. :o