Sundin to Predators PROPOSAL

TO NAS: Mats Sundin + Ken Klee + 2nd 2006

TO TOR: Scottie Upshall + Shea Weber + (salary dump) + 4th 2006 + 4th 2007

Leafs begin the rebuilding and get two young players to add to Steen, Stajan, Cola, Pogge, Rask, etc. Upshall has 2nd/3rd line potential whereas Weber has the potential to be a #1 defender.

The Predators get a #1 centreman and a stay at home defender to increase their cup chances. No team has ever won a cup with the weakness down the middle that the Predators currently have. The Preds have cap room galore and this move is made to put them over the top.

Leafs are still pretty much in a race for the 8th playoff spot.

It ain't gonna happen.

Sundin won't be traded, IMO.

Predators aren't winning the cup this year regardless. Play out this season advance one or two rounds and sign free agent centers in the off season.

why would the leafs trade away their captain.....and then throw in a 2nd to spice things up??

According to most Preds fans Weber is untouchable. I doubt they'd want to trade just him for those players (Sundin, Klee). Also does this even work out for the preds financially, not sure on that either.

Leafs are still pretty much in a race for the 8th playoff spot.

It ain't gonna happen.
Nashville is getting ripped off...maybe if Sundin was actually playing at a level where he was worth his salary.

Very few times do both teams get hosed in a deal, but this is one of them. Toronto is going to give up on the season by trading their captain? The Toronto organization doesn't strike me as the type that would just give up on a season especially when, as of today, they are in the playoffs.

And the Preds are going to bloat up the payroll at the expense of their prized prospect Weber and a guy in Upshall who has been the AHL's most dominant player the past month or so?

With the salary cap era, Sundin's value is down significantly in the eyes of most especially given his mediocre year (for his standards). He's going to have to come a lot cheaper to get the Preds to listen.

I just cannot see either team going for this one.

It's likely that the price of Upshall & Weber is too high a futures price for the Preds. I think Poile is too excited at the prospect of Weber and Suter on his blueline for quite some time to sacrifice it for Sundin. I think the Preds could really use Sundin and might be interested but I think they're not going to do much bending over to get him.

Reduce the Leafs' 2nd rounder to something like a 5th or strike it, take away one of the Preds's 4ths, and reduce Weber to a lesser defense propsect and you have something I can see going down.

If the Leafs do decide to trade Sundin, that is.

Im a leafs fan but no way would the preds give up Weber. Take him out and if the leafs are in a selling mode and the preds are willing to add the salary it might be fair.

Something based around Upshall for Sundin as the main pieces.

Sundin + ?? (3rd or 4th maybe)
for
Upshall + ?? (Klein Maybe)

Nashville is getting ripped off...maybe if Sundin was actually playing at a level where he was worth his salary.


ripped off?

Common, Sundin is still getting almost 1pt/game.
He's a solid two-way center. The guy has carried TO on his back for over 10 years, while playing with mostly second-rate teammates. He's worth every penny if you ask me.

According to most Preds fans Weber is untouchable. I doubt they'd want to trade just him for those players (Sundin, Klee). Also does this even work out for the preds financially, not sure on that either.

Weber isn't untouchable (no one is), but he's looks like the answer to the organizations most pressing problem: a physical, defensive Dman.

And while the Preds need centers, I think recently Predator fans have come to the realization that with Trotz' current system, the more important issue is defense. If we were going to chuck 7 mil at a player, I'd rather us go after a Chara. I think he'd provide more utility at that price than Sundin.

ripped off?

Common, Sundin is still getting almost 1pt/game.
He's a solid two-way center. The guy has carried TO on his back for over 10 years, while playing with mostly second-rate teammates. He's worth every penny if you ask me.

Sundin is (still) an excellent player, but he's very very expensive and Nashville could only guarantee him for a year and a half anyway. It's a risky proposition across the board - maybe he's gone as soon as he can be and the future is less bright becasue of what they gave up, maybe he falters and they have to write off next year too.

Of course, there's solid upside. I think, however, you have to look at what Fedorov got on the open market to see that getting rid of a big contract also counts as a benefit in trade. Hypothetically, Toronto is getting Upshall and a pick and future considerations that amount to $6 million dollars worth of players in the offseason. Nashville loses those players they may have been able to sign in the off-season. It's a condition in any trade and will affect the asking price.

ripped off?

Common, Sundin is still getting almost 1pt/game.
He's a solid two-way center. The guy has carried TO on his back for over 10 years, while playing with mostly second-rate teammates. He's worth every penny if you ask me.

he has a higher PPG average now than in the season prior to the lockout

the big difference is his goal production....which is his lowest ever

My counter proposal:

Nashville: Sundin
Toronto: Third round pick


Leafs unload a fat expensive contract and begin their rebuilding. Preds absorb a big hit to their payroll, but take a possible step toward contention.

Predators aren't winning the cup this year regardless. Play out this season advance one or two rounds and sign free agent centers in the off season.

Why the hell not....they are one of the best teams in the league this year, period. They have as good a chance as anyone else out there :shakehead .

TO NAS: Mats Sundin + Ken Klee + 2nd 2006

TO TOR: Scottie Upshall + Shea Weber + (salary dump) + 4th 2006 + 4th 2007

Leafs begin the rebuilding and get two young players to add to Steen, Stajan, Cola, Pogge, Rask, etc. Upshall has 2nd/3rd line potential whereas Weber has the potential to be a #1 defender.

The Predators get a #1 centreman and a stay at home defender to increase their cup chances. No team has ever won a cup with the weakness down the middle that the Predators currently have. The Preds have cap room galore and this move is made to put them over the top.


I like this deal. I'm on board. LET'S DO IT!

My counter proposal:

Nashville: Sundin
Toronto: Third round pick


Leafs unload a fat expensive contract and begin their rebuilding. Preds absorb a big hit to their payroll, but take a possible step toward contention.

:shakehead ...i'm not even going to bother with this one.

I like this deal. I'm on board. LET'S DO IT!

Make sure the fax machine is working this time :p:

Buttom line: Sundin isn't going anywhere either this or next year, gentelmen.

Why the hell not....they are one of the best teams in the league this year, period. They have as good a chance as anyone else out there :shakehead .

I disagree. The Preds match up very poorly with the likes of Dallas and Detroit, two teams that they would likely have to go through to reach the Cup finals. It could happen, but Vokoun would have to stand on his head Giguere style to give the Preds a chance.

They've been outshot 143-85 in their past 4 games against the Western Conference elite. In the 8 games since pummeling Columbus 7-2 on 1/21/05, the Predators have been outshot 280 to 195. And that includes games against such offensive stalwarts as Chicago, Columbus, and Minnesota. That's 35 shots allowed, 24 shots for.

While they've managed to win more than their fair share of games this season, the Preds are not elite yet. They are a good hockey team. But so many things have to happen for a great team to win the Cup. So many more things have to happen for a good team to even reach the Cup finals.

I disagree. We match up very poorly with the likes of Dallas and Detroit, two teams that we would likely have to go through to reach the Cup finals. It could happen, but Vokoun would have to stand on his head Giguere style to give us a chance.

We've been outshot 143-85 in our past 4 games against the Western Conference elite. In the 8 games since pummeling Columbus 7-2 on 1/21/05, the Predators have been outshot 280 to 195. And that includes games against such offensive stalwarts as Chicago, Columbus, and Minnesota. That's 35 shots allowed, 24 shots for.

While we've managed to win more than our fair share of games this season, we are not elite yet. We are a good hockey team. But so many things have to happen for a great team to win the Cup. So many more things have to happen for a good team to even reach the Cup finals.

woah lol I have more faith in your team than you do... your underestimating them...

Make sure the fax machine is working this time :p:

nice quote :biglaugh:

My counter proposal:

Nashville: Sundin
Toronto: Third round pick


Leafs unload a fat expensive contract and begin their rebuilding. Preds absorb a big hit to their payroll, but take a possible step toward contention.

your deaming. Toronto will get a 1st, a great prospect ,+, for Sundin. There is not too many quality players out there like him. And he is only 34. He has at least 6 yrs left. Anything less than that you can forget about it. Weight might have been a UFA but why would someone trade away a ton of assets for a rental?!? Use your head man. The cap is raising next year. Word on TSN and Sports Central is it's raising to 46 mil.

woah lol I have more faith in your team than you do... your underestimating them...

I've seen pretty much every game of theirs this season. We are not a Cup capable team, in my opinion. The Cinderellas that have made it through the West in recent years all had one thing in common: Defense. Calgary, Minny, and Anaheim all were great in their own ends.

Nashville has given up almost 33 SOG's per game and over 4 more against than for. They are bottom 5 in the league in SOG's allowed per game. In '03/'04, Calgary only allowed 25 SOG's and was top 5 in the regular season in that category. In 02/03, neither Anaheim nor Minnesota gave up near as many SOG's per game as Nashville. Only Anaheim gave up over 30 in the postseason (hence the previous reference to Vokoun having to be like Giguere).

The bottom line is this. We are a good hockey team. But as of right now, we are not the right team to make a cup run. Way too many things have to go right.

I've seen pretty much every game of theirs this season. We are not a Cup capable team, in my opinion. The Cinderellas that have made it through the West in recent years all had one thing in common: Defense. Calgary, Minny, and Anaheim all were great in their own ends.

Nashville has given up almost 33 SOG's per game and over 4 more against than for. They are bottom 5 in the league in SOG's allowed per game. In '03/'04, Calgary only allowed 25 SOG's and was top 5 in the regular season in that category. In 02/03, neither Anaheim nor Minnesota gave up near as many SOG's per game as Nashville. Only Anaheim gave up over 30 in the postseason (hence the previous reference to Vokoun having to be like Giguere).

The bottom line is this. We are a good hockey team. But as of right now, we are not the right team to make a cup run. Way too many things have to go right.

And why couldn't they win the cup? because they couldn't outscore Ottawa Philly Tampa... Your team is good... I had them picked to be a great team and contend for it all from the start, as well as Carolina... Weight is putting them over the top, and Sunind would also... :dunno:

nashville doesnt have the D, but they have one of the best goalies in the league

i say they are definate cup contenders

Buttom line: Sundin isn't going anywhere either this or next year, gentelmen.
:clap:

your deaming. Toronto will get a 1st, a great prospect ,+, for Sundin. There is not too many quality players out there like him. And he is only 34. He has at least 6 yrs left. Anything less than that you can forget about it. Weight might have been a UFA but why would someone trade away a ton of assets for a rental?!? Use your head man. The cap is raising next year. Word on TSN and Sports Central is it's raising to 46 mil.

Duck fans were saying the same thing about Federov last season. The suggestion that you can get a "1st and a great prospect, +" for a 34-YO player making that kind of coin is laughable, to be blunt.

As for Weight, that deal is irrelevant. He was an impending UFA which made him MORE valuable. Carolina could trade for him WITHOUT adding a big contract.

As for the "46 million cap", I'll believe that when I see it. It hasn't happened yet and is far from a sure thing. But, even if it does happen, teams are not going to be lining up to spend picks and prospects on a six million player when that same cash could be used to sign the likes of Chara, Redden, etc.

I think the third rounder is more than fair. It was more than Anaheim got for Federov, and Federov is a better 2-way player.

Use YOUR head, boy.

I've seen pretty much every game of theirs this season. We are not a Cup capable team, in my opinion. The Cinderellas that have made it through the West in recent years all had one thing in common: Defense. Calgary, Minny, and Anaheim all were great in their own ends.

Nashville has given up almost 33 SOG's per game and over 4 more against than for. They are bottom 5 in the league in SOG's allowed per game. In '03/'04, Calgary only allowed 25 SOG's and was top 5 in the regular season in that category. In 02/03, neither Anaheim nor Minnesota gave up near as many SOG's per game as Nashville. Only Anaheim gave up over 30 in the postseason (hence the previous reference to Vokoun having to be like Giguere).

The bottom line is this. We are a good hockey team. But as of right now, we are not the right team to make a cup run. Way too many things have to go right.
We gave up a ton of really long shots to Detroit, Colorado and Chicago. Not to mention half of Chicagos shots came in the 3rd when they trailed 5-0.

Our defense if fine, we just need to tweak the coaching a little.

Duck fans were saying the same thing about Federov last season. The suggestion that you can get a "1st and a great prospect, +" for a 34-YO player making that kind of coin is laughable, to be blunt.

As for Weight, that deal is irrelevant. He was an impending UFA which made him MORE valuable. Carolina could trade for him WITHOUT adding a big contract.

As for the "46 million cap", I'll believe that when I see it. It hasn't happened yet and is far from a sure thing. But, even if it does happen, teams are not going to be lining up to spend picks and prospects on a six million player when that same cash could be used to sign the likes of Chara, Redden, etc.

I think the third rounder is more than fair. It was more than Anaheim got for Federov, and Federov is a better 2-way player.

Use YOUR head, boy.

While i agree with you largely its interesting that Sundin has no value b/c he isnt a UFA to be (as is true IMO) while in other threads McCabe and Kaberle are said to have no value b/c they are UFA's. Doesnt make sense to me.

I do think Sundin has more value then Fedorov though as Feds is/wasn't producing, but Sundins value isnt near where some leafs fans are putting it either. I would be very happy to get Upshall alone.

Toronto is my favourite team and I love seeing them in the playoffs. However with this deal....IMHO I would do it. Sundin came here in the Wendel Clark trade. Trading our franchise player for a player that wasn't in his prime yet as Toronto began to rebuild.

I think this deal would start this all over again as Toronto should rebuild. They don't have a chance at winning this year and many people know this. This is definatly not one of their better teams at all. Toronto has many assets to trade right now....however if they don't right now they may lose these assets (McCabe, Kaberle, Allison, Sundin, Klee, etc) to free agency etc.

If Toronto does this trade we will slip down the standings a bit more giving us a possible top 10 pick which we could use on a game breaking forward because we would have many solid defense prospects...or even trade up further to get a top 5 pick if we were lucky and didn't give up too much. This would allow Toronto to expand from a solid goaltending prospect depth to solid defensive depth with a mixture of both physical stay at home d-men and offensive d-men. Our forward prospects could expand with more trades.

I think you could even expand this deal more (im not great a trade proposals so I never both but this would be good for both teams)

Radulov, Legwand, Weber, and a salary dump
for
Sundin, Allison, Cash or 4th rd pick and Mccabe or Kaberle (barring the Preds and 1 of the 2 agree on a contract extension)

Here's why....
-Allison would become center the first or second line for Nashville or play wing and would be gone at the end of the yr...the cash would pay for some of his contract.
-Sundin could also become the first or second line center....imagine him with a Kariya on his left side or a Sullivan on his right?
-McCabe or Kaberle instantly makes Nashvilles Defense that much better. Timonen, McCabe or Kaberle, Zidlicky, Hamhuis, Suter, Markov. Thats pretty scary.
-The extra cash if chosen helps pay for the rest of Allison's contract or they can just pay it and take the 4th rounder.

-Legwand is definatly out of favor in Nashville and maybe a change in scenery could help. Also allows Sundin or Allison to play center with his departure.
-Radulov would provide Toronto with a possible first, second line player in a couple years.
-Weber would add to Toronto's defensive prospects. He is exactly what Toronto has needed over the past few years.
-Salary dump well its just that a salary dump.

I think the deal is pretty even if you look at it this way....Preds going for it and Toronto rebuilding. Definatly won't happen but I think this proposal and the other one are both something that wouldn't be bad if it did happen.

why would we trade for Legwand when he's a UFA at the end of the year??


i do like Radulov though, and would love him in toronto. but i wouldnt sacrifice sundin's legacy for him

While i agree with you largely its interesting that Sundin has no value b/c he isnt a UFA to be (as is true IMO) while in other threads McCabe and Kaberle are said to have no value b/c they are UFA's. Doesnt make sense to me.


I think it depends on the size of the contract and the age of the player.

Doug Weight had a very overpriced contract for his age, production, and the new economic realities. If he had had another 2 years at $6 million, I don't think teams trade for him or if they do, the key value they return is strictly taking the contract off St. Louis's hands. These are rare cases where the figure is so high that the contract is a detriment.

Whereas a player like McCabe or Kaberle are young enough and reasonably priced enough that there will be teams out there that want them long-term, at a figure on or around their current contract. Therefore, an extra few years on the contract is only an asset.

But I would think that UFA versions of McCabe and Kaberle would have significant trade value. Just significant UFA value, which is usually lesser than signed contract player.

Why the hell not....they are one of the best teams in the league this year, period. They have as good a chance as anyone else out there :shakehead .

Because it's nearly gospel among some on this board.

Why give yourself a chance to really accomplish something?

Better to give up, quit, coast along, settle for a playoff round win and hope for success in the abstract future. :shakehead

Read the same sentiment from an NYR fan on another thread, talking about "don't forget, we're in a rebuilding mode."

Weird.

I thought the idea of building or rebuilding is to win.

Preds have built their squad sensationally over the last several years. No one is suggesting that they trade away their future for a single shot at this season. But if Poile sees an opportunity to go for it this year, he sure the heck should (and will). For they are in the hunt.

I didn't know Legwand was impending UFA my fault....well throw in a circumstance that Toronto gets to work out and extension like Nashville would.

I think Sundin is one of the best ever in a TML uniform but we know we aren't going anywhere the next two three years. Why not trade him for something that could turn into something like he did when he was traded here? (Not saying Radulov will ever be Sundin because I doubt that)

Its like the Clark situation....not everyone was happy and many many people didn't want him gone and figured he was our franchise player but he got traded and brought us Mats. I think we should go for it again.

Also, with this trade I really think Nashville would have a shot at the Cup giving Sundin something that he doesn't have yet and deserves even if it means leaving the team that he meant so much too....ala Bourque to Colorado.

I doubt this trade would happen because many things would have to occur...
- Poile wanting to go all out for it....giving up two prospects even though they have an abundance of great d-man prospects. (Hamhius, Suter, Klein, Parent)
- Toronto realizes that they won't challenge for the cup.
- Sundin accepts to go to Nashville
- Contracts could be worked out (Legwand and either Kabs or McCabe)

It was just an idea IMO would be good for both sides.

It would suck to see such a great player such as Sundin leave (team player, captain, our franchise player, one of the best Toronto Maple Leaf players ever and one of the best if not the best Swedish players ever leave Toronto but it would give him a chance at the Cup since even though he wants to win it in Toronto it is very very doubtful.

Duck fans were saying the same thing about Federov last season. The suggestion that you can get a "1st and a great prospect, +" for a 34-YO player making that kind of coin is laughable, to be blunt.

As for Weight, that deal is irrelevant. He was an impending UFA which made him MORE valuable. Carolina could trade for him WITHOUT adding a big contract.

As for the "46 million cap", I'll believe that when I see it. It hasn't happened yet and is far from a sure thing. But, even if it does happen, teams are not going to be lining up to spend picks and prospects on a six million player when that same cash could be used to sign the likes of Chara, Redden, etc.

I think the third rounder is more than fair. It was more than Anaheim got for Federov, and Federov is a better 2-way player.

Use YOUR head, boy.


you are so way off!
It's so apparent you are a Leaf hater.
I wish Sundin was tradaed so you'd see what he truley was worth.

Duck fans were saying the same thing about Federov last season. The suggestion that you can get a "1st and a great prospect, +" for a 34-YO player making that kind of coin is laughable, to be blunt.

As for Weight, that deal is irrelevant. He was an impending UFA which made him MORE valuable. Carolina could trade for him WITHOUT adding a big contract.

As for the "46 million cap", I'll believe that when I see it. It hasn't happened yet and is far from a sure thing. But, even if it does happen, teams are not going to be lining up to spend picks and prospects on a six million player when that same cash could be used to sign the likes of Chara, Redden, etc.

I think the third rounder is more than fair. It was more than Anaheim got for Federov, and Federov is a better 2-way player.

Use YOUR head, boy.

Darth you are one of the most respected posters on here, and one I enjoy reading comments from. But in this case you are very wrong. I would like one example of a team trading away their captain and arguably one of the 5 best players in that teams history for a 3rd round pick? You cannot compare the Fedorov and Sundin situations.

One was a very over priced free agent that was a mistake to sign, and the only reason he was signed was the loss of that teams best player.

The other is a 10 year captain of one of hockeys most popular teams, a player who does not have the eye opening stats because of 3rd tier wingers he is asked to play with year after year. On a team that was not expected much from this year because of the salary cap and the questionable deadline deals over the last few years, also a team if the season ended today would be in the playoffs.

Some Leaf fans overrated their players in fantasy trades, this time some people are underrating what a Sundin would actually fetch

Darth you are one of the most respected posters on here, and one I enjoy reading comments from. But in this case you are very wrong. I would like one example of a team trading away their captain and arguably one of the 5 best players in that teams history for a 3rd round pick? You cannot compare the Fedorov and Sundin situations.

One was a very over priced free agent that was a mistake to sign, and the only reason he was signed was the loss of that teams best player.

The other is a 10 year captain of one of hockeys most popular teams, a player who does not have the eye opening stats because of 3rd tier wingers he is asked to play with year after year. On a team that was not expected much from this year because of the salary cap and the questionable deadline deals over the last few years, also a team if the season ended today would be in the playoffs.

Some Leaf fans overrated their players in fantasy trades, this time some people are underrating what a Sundin would actually fetch

I concur

Even though it has the word Proposal in capital letters I still damn near had a heart attack from the title.

Sundin will not be goiong anywhere this season. The Leafs, unless they completley tank it in the next few weeks, will likely not be much of a seller at the deadline. However, if Sundin was traded in the offseason or in a years time as a UFA, i would imagine there would be a decent return for him, say a 1st rounder and couple of mid level prospects.

Darth you are one of the most respected posters on here, and one I enjoy reading comments from. But in this case you are very wrong. I would like one example of a team trading away their captain and arguably one of the 5 best players in that teams history for a 3rd round pick? You cannot compare the Fedorov and Sundin situations.

One was a very over priced free agent that was a mistake to sign, and the only reason he was signed was the loss of that teams best player.

The other is a 10 year captain of one of hockeys most popular teams, a player who does not have the eye opening stats because of 3rd tier wingers he is asked to play with year after year. On a team that was not expected much from this year because of the salary cap and the questionable deadline deals over the last few years, also a team if the season ended today would be in the playoffs.

Some Leaf fans overrated their players in fantasy trades, this time some people are underrating what a Sundin would actually fetch

I don't think the Leafs are going to trade away Sundin. I think he is going to finish his very distinguished career in Toronto, retire a Leaf, and then go to the HOF.

What I don't believe is that there are many players in the NHL making that kind of $ who have trade value right now. I could see three possible exceptions out there 1) Pronger, 2) Luongo, and 3) Thornton. Sundin is not one of those players - he is not in his prime and is not a guy you'd build your whole organization around.

I'll stand by my prediction. If the Leafs trade Sudin (which, again, I don't see happening), you're not going to get much (if any) real return.

How about we keep Weber and Legwand (who is RFA at the end of the season) resign Perreault and sign Jokinen in the offseason and keep Weber up full time next season along with Radulov.

Hartnell - Jokinen - Kariya
Sullivan - Perreault- Walker
Radulov - Legwand - Upshall
Hordichuk - Smithson - Tootoo


Timonen - Hamhuis
Zidlicky - Markov
Suter - Weber
Klien

Vokoun


Looks pretty good to me

Package Hall and Erat for another need.

We gave up a ton of really long shots to Detroit, Colorado and Chicago. Not to mention half of Chicagos shots came in the 3rd when they trailed 5-0.

Our defense if fine, we just need to tweak the coaching a little.

Agreed that it is a little misleading because there were some long shots, but both Dallas and Detroit had a fair amount more scoring chances than we did.

And I disagree about the defense being fine but agree about the coaching. It is our coaching that is hurting our defense and is keeping it from being 'fine'.

Agreed that it is a little misleading because there were some long shots, but both Dallas and Detroit had a fair amount more scoring chances than we did.

And I disagree about the defense being fine but agree about the coaching. It is our coaching that is hurting our defense and is keeping it from being 'fine'.
I agree, I meant it's not the personnel it's the system that needs tweaked.

why would we trade for Legwand when he's a UFA at the end of the year??


i do like Radulov though, and would love him in toronto. but i wouldnt sacrifice sundin's legacy for him

How is Legwand, at the ripe old age of 25, going to be a UFA at season's end?

1. As mentioned, Legwand is RFA, not UFA.

2. Sundin is a great player, but as far as the "bang for buck" factor goes, I don't see it...and I'm not about trading away 2 of our top 5 prospects for a year and a quarter of a great center, especially when it's not our most pressing need right now...and especially when there are several great centers that will be available UFA this summer, and we're a team with plenty of cap room to sign one of them.

3. I agree with Smokey...Weber isn't UN-tradeable...but pretty damn close. To ask for him...and then throw in Upshall, who is borderline unstoppable in the AHL this year(soaring toward almost 3 PPG) and it makes even less sense for us. Poile is a patient guy, and most of us fans respect and admire that. He's worked too hard to build this team the way he wants it, to set it up for success...to throw it all away for one desperate run at the cup. I'd much rather wait for Upshall, Suter, Hamhuis, Weber, Radulov, Parent...all these guys to come into their own...and be a team that's a threat to win the cup of their own doing EVERY YEAR then sacrifice all of that for one sweet run.

Poile is, very quietly, one of the best GMs in the buisness. I've been a fan since his Washington days.

Anyway, if you guys ever do decide to trade Weber, the line will be around the block.

2. Sundin is a great player, but as far as the "bang for buck" factor goes, I don't see it...and I'm not about trading away 2 of our top 5 prospects for a year and a quarter of a great center, especially when it's not our most pressing need right now...and especially when there are several great centers that will be available UFA this summer, and we're a team with plenty of cap room to sign one of them.

I'd be much more tempted to throw 5+ mil at a Jokinen as opposed to Sundin. I'm not saying Jokinen is better, but if the money's equal, the fact that we would have to (according to some on here) give up half of our top 4 prospects is enough to make me pass on it.

3. I agree with Smokey...Weber isn't UN-tradeable...but pretty damn close. To ask for him...and then throw in Upshall, who is borderline unstoppable in the AHL this year(soaring toward almost 3 PPG) and it makes even less sense for us. Poile is a patient guy, and most of us fans respect and admire that. He's worked too hard to build this team the way he wants it, to set it up for success...to throw it all away for one desperate run at the cup. I'd much rather wait for Upshall, Suter, Hamhuis, Weber, Radulov, Parent...all these guys to come into their own...and be a team that's a threat to win the cup of their own doing EVERY YEAR then sacrifice all of that for one sweet run.


I have trouble rationalizing mortgaging our future for a desperate attempt at the cup. If I really thought that Sundin was all that stood inbetween us and a Cup, I'd go for it. But while he would undoubtedly make us better, he do little to solve the problems that would keep is from the Cup with or without him.

If we do put all our eggs in one basket and trade the farm for the aforementioned Sundin/McCabe proposal, we would be setting ourselves up for failure very quickly down the road. It would expose significant weaknesses that we were on pace to correct. And we'd be forced to throw more prospects/money at the problem in hopes for another quick fix solution.

Having seen Nashville this year, we are not like Detroit/Colorado/Philly of years past. We are not one or two obtainable players away from the Cup. If we win the Cup, it will be because of remarkable play of Tomas Vokoun. That'll happen with or without Sundin/McCabe in my opinion.

How is Legwand, at the ripe old age of 25, going to be a UFA at season's end?
Ya and would someone explain to me how he is out of favor in Nashville. Trotz would tell you differently.

Ya and would someone explain to me how he is out of favor in Nashville. Trotz would tell you differently.
He's talking about Joe Blow on the call in shows "Trade Leg waaand, He sucks"

TO NAS: Mats Sundin + Ken Klee + 2nd 2006

TO TOR: Scottie Upshall + Shea Weber + (salary dump) + 4th 2006 + 4th 2007

Here's my offer to NAS fans from an Isles perspective:

TO NAS: Alexei Yashin + Brad Lukowich + 2nd 2006

TO Isles: (Salary dump)

Yashin has three more years than Sundin on his contract, and is two years younger. He is averaging .83 ppg to Sundin's .93 ppg this year. Yashin's salary is $700,000 higher than Sundin's this year. But Yashin's cap hit is lower than Yashin's salary. His contract was structured so that it would decrease after next year.

If you do not have any salary dumps that you want to get rid of... feel free to acquire them with an asset from another team. Then pass them along to the Isles. For example you can flip a 6th rd pick or something to the Devils for Mogilny and a 2nd. You keep the 2nd pick we take Mogilny's salary. Heck you can even hold onto Mogilny for the playoff run and then flip him over to the Isles in the offseason for the 6th rd pick you lost acquiring him.

Personally, I'd prefer Sundin on my team over Yashin... but if you are really reluctant to give up your youth than maybe this could be a different option.

I'd be much more tempted to throw 5+ mil at a Jokinen as opposed to Sundin. I'm not saying Jokinen is better, but if the money's equal, the fact that we would have to (according to some on here) give up half of our top 4 prospects is enough to make me pass on it.

1) I think, some local opinion aside, the asking price for Sundin is much lower than Jokinen. Unless you're talking about this off-season.

2) Don't you think that there's a really good chance that Jokinen gets a fat 5 year deal...and then just vanishes. That the team who signs him is, in effect, making a signing akin to Yashin at the Isle or Jagr on the Caps. I don't know much about him, but I know he bounced around as a youngster due to some problems, that the people who saw him most often gave up on him, and that Keenan's influence helped turn him around. But that tells me the odds of him reverting or sitting on his duff for the first few years are pretty good and the success record of players like this moving in free agency often coughs up disappointments.

I hate the Leafs and all their players and all they stand for, but I do know that if you get Sundin, no matter what you're not going to wind up questioning the effort. To me, I think that'd be a really important factor in choosing to gun for either of the two.

Relax....none of this is going to happen its just for fun....at least these proposals arent unrealistic as some are.

Its not a...Vokoun, Kariya, Zidlicky, Sullivan for Sundin, Allison, Mccabe, Belfour and a 1st.

My opinion on a trade is something IMO would work and be good for both teams. Really it is a fair offer with the stipulations of contract extensions etc...without that extension the deal is stupid for Nashville because of losing McCabe or Kaberle to UFA.

And for the falling out of favour it was because of the rumours thats going around, how some Nashville fans are saying it and how they aquired Sillinger and I read something before near begining of the year where I BELIEVE Trotz said something about Legwand needing to pick up his game. Sorry that I don't have concrete proof.

Here's my offer to NAS fans from an Isles perspective:

TO NAS: Alexei Yashin + Brad Lukowich + 2nd 2006

TO Isles: (Salary dump)

Yashin has three more years than Sundin on his contract, and is two years younger. He is averaging .83 ppg to Sundin's .93 ppg this year. Yashin's salary is $700,000 higher than Sundin's this year. But Yashin's cap hit is lower than Yashin's salary. His contract was structured so that it would decrease after next year.

If you do not have any salary dumps that you want to get rid of... feel free to acquire them with an asset from another team. Then pass them along to the Isles. For example you can flip a 6th rd pick or something to the Devils for Mogilny and a 2nd. You keep the 2nd pick we take Mogilny's salary. Heck you can even hold onto Mogilny for the playoff run and then flip him over to the Isles in the offseason for the 6th rd pick you lost acquiring him.

Personally, I'd prefer Sundin on my team over Yashin... but if you are really reluctant to give up your youth than maybe this could be a different option.

Sundin probably doesn't have much (if any) trade value - because of his contract.

However, Yashin's trade value is very, very negative. If you wanted the Nashvegans to bite on this contract, I think they'd want something like:

Yashin, Hunter, Campoli, and 1st rounder

for

Salary dump

Sundin probably doesn't have much (if any) trade value - because of his contract.

However, Yashin's trade value is very, very negative. If you wanted the Nashvegans to bite on this contract, I think they'd want something like:

Yashin, Hunter, Campoli, and 1st rounder

for

Salary dump


Darth,

Do you think something more could be had for Sundin a year from now ?

Darth,

Do you think something more could be had for Sundin a year from now ?

If his contract is up at the end of next season, he'll almost certainly have very good trade value at this time next year. At that point, he'll be a proven #1 center who has a history of coming through in the clutch, and he won't be a burden on a team's payroll. At the deadline next year, he should easily attract the sort of package that Weight returned: a 1st rounder, a prospect or two, and maybe some mid-round picks.

your deaming. Toronto will get a 1st, a great prospect ,+, for Sundin. There is not too many quality players out there like him. And he is only 34. He has at least 6 yrs left. Anything less than that you can forget about it. Weight might have been a UFA but why would someone trade away a ton of assets for a rental?!? Use your head man. The cap is raising next year. Word on TSN and Sports Central is it's raising to 46 mil.

:biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:

If his contract is up at the end of next season, he'll almost certainly have very good trade value at this time next year. At that point, he'll be a proven #1 center who has a history of coming through in the clutch, and he won't be a burden on a team's payroll. At the deadline next year, he should easily attract the sort of package that Weight returned: a 1st rounder, a prospect or two, and maybe some mid-round picks.

Ya, i was thinking pretty much the same thing. Certainly something both sides (Sundin and the Leafs) may wish to investigate should the Leafs be in rebuilding mode.

Kariya Sundin Hartnell... :eek:

How is Legwand, at the ripe old age of 25, going to be a UFA at season's end?

He's in his 7th NHL season. He qualifies as a UFA when his contract is up this year, smartass.

He's in his 7th NHL season. He qualifies as a UFA when his contract is up this year, smartass.


he didn't have enough games in that first year to count as an accrued year of service. unless you, all knowing messageboard poster, know something that poile\trotz don't, he is an RFA.

Ya, i was thinking pretty much the same thing. Certainly something both sides (Sundin and the Leafs) may wish to investigate should the Leafs be in rebuilding mode.

I'm no Leaf's fan, but I would not want to bet against them being very competitive next season. I think JFJ is one of the smarter GMs around, and he'll probably walk away from this summer's UFA frenzy with a very strong lineup.

Ya, i was thinking pretty much the same thing. Certainly something both sides (Sundin and the Leafs) may wish to investigate should the Leafs be in rebuilding mode.

Exactly. Leafs are better off holding on to Sundin for several reasons.

1. They aren't out of a playoff spot. Looks like they will have to fight tooth and nail to get there but they could still do it (I'm betting they probably will).
2. The return on Sundin won't be that great right now. It's a buyer's market (for the few that can buy) for highly paid players. Cap will be higher but the definitive amount hasn't been set yet.
3. Next year's cap should be higher and would be established by then.So that coupled with the fact Sundin would be a UFA means you could probably get more than what the Blues got for Weight. Which was pretty good to start with.

Completely agree.

I'd rather have Sundin than Weight anyday of the week.

I'm no Leaf's fan, but I would not want to bet against them being very competitive next season. I think JFJ is one of the smarter GMs around, and he'll probably walk away from this summer's UFA frenzy with a very strong lineup.


Sadly, as a Leaf fan im not that optimistic. JFJ didnt have a great offseason by signing Khavanov,Belak and Domi when all three never should have been brought in. (Although its more tricky with Domi given the PR behind it).

Also, as I mentioned in another thread, the Leafs are indeed in a good cap position next year, but they also would have to completley rebuild their blueline. Im guessing both Kronwall and Colaiacovo will be part of next years blueline, but that leaves four spots to fill.

Up front there is a need for scoring wingers, and we will also be in need of a goalie, although its more likely we turn to a Fernandez or dare I say Joseph to split the duties with Tellqvist.

Its not that JFJ cannot recruit a few good players, its that we need more then that. We'd need to get back Mccabe and Kabs AND sign another top pairing dman. The Leafs are the victims of their own decision making the past few years as they don't have sure fire bets that they could pencil into next years lineup.

Sadly, as a Leaf fan im not that optimistic. JFJ didnt have a great offseason by signing Khavanov,Belak and Domi when all three never should have been brought in. (Although its more tricky with Domi given the PR behind it).

Also, as I mentioned in another thread, the Leafs are indeed in a good cap position next year, but they also would have to completley rebuild their blueline. Im guessing both Kronwall and Colaiacovo will be part of next years blueline, but that leaves four spots to fill.

Up front there is a need for scoring wingers, and we will also be in need of a goalie, although its more likely we turn to a Fernandez or dare I say Joseph to split the duties with Tellqvist.

Its not that JFJ cannot recruit a few good players, its that we need more then that. We'd need to get back Mccabe and Kabs AND sign another top pairing dman. The Leafs are the victims of their own decision making the past few years as they don't have sure fire bets that they could pencil into next years lineup.

I think JFJ was conservative last summer because he had his eyes set on this year's UFA crop. He'd rather have a shot at Redden and Chara this summer, then settle for Zhitnik or Rathje last summer.

I think JFJ was conservative last summer because he had his eyes set on this year's UFA crop. He'd rather have a shot at Redden and Chara this summer, then settle for Zhitnik or Rathje last summer.


Well if thats the case then I certainly wont be sorry to be eating crow come July :)

I think JFJ was conservative last summer because he had his eyes set on this year's UFA crop. He'd rather have a shot at Redden and Chara this summer, then settle for Zhitnik or Rathje last summer.

it's unlikely the leafs get either ...too many 'younger' teams have more money to toss about than toronto this off season.

I hope you are right because I am most definitely NOT a Leafs fan. But, somehow, I think JFJ will laugh last. I'll go out on a limb and predict that 1) Leafs make the playoffs this year, 2) Leafs are even better next year than they are this year.

He's in his 7th NHL season. He qualifies as a UFA when his contract is up this year, smartass.


As someone whose response to the Legwand conversation was all "a*s" and no "smart," I find your post deliciously fitting.

As for the official response: See NMK's statement. Legwand is not included in the list of impending Predator unrestricted free agents. It says so just about every where you look, from the top of this message board to numerous times on the Predators message board. It's not a big deal either way but don't get high and mighty when you don't have your facts straight.

What about Allison for Adam Hall and a 2nd?

Leafs get a good 3rd line defensively responsible grinder that they can have for a few years. They lack size/checking on the wings. He would be a pretty good 3rd liner to compliment the leafs young, small 2 way forwards (ie steen/wellwood/stajan) Preds get a solid playmaking center who has always been a beast in the playoffs and works best with a fast sniper like palfy. I think he would be lights out with KAriya. Nashville also has a bunch of young forwards who are ready to make the jump on the wings anyway. Sillinger would move over to take HAll's spot for the playoffs.This trade would give theme the no.1 center they need, and that would clear the way for Upshall/Tootoo.
Judging by the weight trade I think Nashville would have to give up a little more, but this is a base for a trade.

Another idea: Allison/Klee for Hall/tootoo/4th.

PS. a 29 year old 6'3 allison has more value than a 35 year old 5'10 doug weight. They have comparable skills and numbers and speed. Weight isnt fast either. at least not from what I have seen after his knee injury

What about Allison for Adam Hall and a 2nd?

Leafs get a good 3rd line defensively responsible grinder that they can have for a few years. They lack size/checking on the wings. He would be a pretty good 3rd liner to compliment the leafs young, small 2 way forwards (ie steen/wellwood/stajan) Preds get a solid playmaking center who has always been a beast in the playoffs and works best with a fast sniper like palfy. I think he would be lights out with KAriya. Nashville also has a bunch of young forwards who are ready to make the jump on the wings anyway. Sillinger would move over to take HAll's spot for the playoffs.This trade would give theme the no.1 center they need, and that would clear the way for Upshall/Tootoo.
Judging by the weight trade I think Nashville would have to give up a little more, but this is a base for a trade.

Another idea: Allison/Klee for Hall/tootoo/4th.

PS. a 29 year old 6'3 allison has more value than a 35 year old 5'10 doug weight. They have comparable skills and numbers and speed. Weight isnt fast either. at least not from what I have seen after his knee injury

first off....skip the second proposal altogether.

second...i think allison for hall straight up is a more realistic deal, considering Hall is younger and still hasn't reached his potential(while being a pretty damn good player that can play in any situation and on any line comfortably) if you must add a pick to balance out, a second is way too high. A fourth or fifth is a lot more pallatable and realistic.

first off....skip the second proposal altogether.

second...i think allison for hall straight up is a more realistic deal, considering Hall is younger and still hasn't reached his potential(while being a pretty damn good player that can play in any situation and on any line comfortably) if you must add a pick to balance out, a second is way too high. A fourth or fifth is a lot more pallatable and realistic.

Allison is scoring at .92/game and like Sundin, he hasnt had the best linemates ...he may not be quick, but he'd still be a #1 center on many teams, or a darn good #2 ...Hall, although I havent seen him play, looks/sounds like another Poni which the Leafs don't need

A first line center that is on pace for about 14 goals this year and is ineffective in his own end of the ice?

he didn't have enough games in that first year to count as an accrued year of service. unless you, all knowing messageboard poster, know something that poile\trotz don't, he is an RFA.

The lockout counts as a season towards UFA eligibility.

The lockout counts as a season towards UFA eligibility.

From NHL.com:

Unrestricted Free Agency - For the 2005-06 season, a player age 31 with four accrued seasons will be an unrestricted free agent; in 2006-07, a player age 29 with four accrued seasons or with eight accrued seasons; in 2007-08, a player age 28 with four accrued seasons or with seven accrued seasons; beginning in 2008-09 and for the duration of the agreement, a player age 27 with four accrued seasons or with seven accrued seasons will be an unrestricted free agent. For purposes of qualifying for unrestricted free agency, the 2004-05 cancelled season will be counted as a year of accrued service.

Though the lockout year counts, his 1 game season does not (according to David Poile). That leaves him with 7 years of accrued service. The 7 year rule does not come into effect until the end of next season.

http://www.nhl.com/nhlhq/cba/index.html

FYI, here's how the old CBA defined accrued season:

Accrued Season" means any League Year during which a player was on a Club's Playing Roster for 40 (30 if the Player is a goalie) or more regular season NHL games, provided that, for the purposes of calculating an Accrued Season under this Agreement, games missed due to a hockey-related injury incurred while on a Club's Playing Roster shall count as games played for purposes of calculating an Accrued Season but only during the League Year in which the injury was incurred and a maximum of one additional season.


Now quit trying to give casual Predator fans a heart attack. ;)

A first line center that is on pace for about 14 goals this year and is ineffective in his own end of the ice?

He's on pace for 75 points, and currently stands 3rd in the league in PPA (powerplay assists) 2 points out of 1st (Kaberle being in 2nd spot)
...and nobody has ever claimed he was a defensive specialist, and thats not what teams would want him for anyways.

first off....skip the second proposal altogether.

second...i think allison for hall straight up is a more realistic deal, considering Hall is younger and still hasn't reached his potential(while being a pretty damn good player that can play in any situation and on any line comfortably) if you must add a pick to balance out, a second is way too high. A fourth or fifth is a lot more pallatable and realistic.

I think Allison for Hall is a good starting point, but we are going to have to add something. I think a 4th would be enough because he is a UFA.

A Kariya - Allison - Sullivan - Zidlicky - Timonen PP would be a fair bit more adequate than what we have right now.