Can The Real X Generation Please Stand Up?

GoPenguins
10-26-2003, 06:59 AM
OK, I know this is still very early in the season, but after the game against the Islanders last night, I am wondering if a couple of changes are needed.

Last night, we were easily handled by a team that in all honesty, we could play a lot better against. I feel every Islander seemed faster and hungrier, and to me, that was something I wasnt expecting to see when I heard about the youth movement. I was of course hoping for playoffs, but realistically, I felt if I saw a bunch of young players giving 100% each and every night and playing with heart, I'd be happy.

Last night, and also against Carolina and New Jersey, I didnt see 100% effort. We looked a little lethargic, and we didnt get to many loose pucks first. This isnt what I expected from the X Generation. I want to see effort, hustle and desire. At times, it seems like only Fata, Koltsov and Straka can skate with speed. I hope things may change if things dont improve.

Right now, I have lost all confidence in Kraft (his game last night was again disappointing. There was one moment in the 3rd when he started to skate hard towards the net, then seemed to realize where he was going and shied away. Pathetic. And dont see a role for McKenna. I also tried to shake up the defense, as Bergevin, Berehowsy and Baumgartner worry me.

Now remember, this is my opinion so I ask that you please dont slam my own opinion. But do feel free to comment.

My proposed lines:

Forwards

Line 1: Straka-Lemieux-Morozov

Our team needs a bona fide no.1. This line has speed (Straka) and chemistry. It might not be the best defensively, but in theory, it should look dangerous enough offensively and so might often be up against checking lines.

Line 2: Koltsov-Fata-Surovy

I like this line. A lot of speed, good hustle, and a chance for young players to feed off each other. I added Surovy to give them someone who is hopefully trigger happy. Koltsov is best suited on the LW.

Line 3: Lefebvre-Sivek-Bradley

I wanted an energy checking line with scoring potential. I feel Lefebvre had shown great hustle when playing on a 3rd line last year with Johannson and Fata, and can put the puck in the net. He, and Bradley, also are not afraid of checking. I added Sivek here as Holzinger isnt adding much to the team. Sivek could move up here, but as Edzo likes to use 3-4 lines at least, Sivek should get decent minutes here.

Line 4: Malone-Eastwood-Buchberger

This line I dont envision playing as a regular line too often. I kept Malone as he seems to be a decent penalty killer, and adds hustle and speed. He also can go to the net if we need someone there on PP. He can also learn from two cagey veterans. After Buchberger's rather worrysome game against the Isles, I almost dropped him to the extras. However, he was signed as a role player, so I will keep him as a role player PK forward. Eastwood is our faceoff center and also kills penalties.

Extras: Holzinger, Abid

Abid to me is a tough guy to place on any line. He lacks great speed, and I dont know if he is that sound defensively. However, he does crash the net, so he makes for a good option to sub into the rotation for games we feel his style can excel at. Holzinger is here because he's on an NHL only contract and at least can hustle. He seems adaptable.

Defense

Pair 1: Tarnstrom-Orpik

Two of perhaps our best defensemen so far. Their styles seem to compliment each other well. Tarnstrom can be more effective if paired with a defensively minded and solid partner.

Pair 2: Melichar-Rozsival

I know Rozy's hurt, but when he's back am hoping he is re-united with Melichar. Again, one is more offensively minded than the other, and Roszival gives Melichar a speedier partner. He is currently with Focht, and neither are too fleet of foot. I think if we'd signed Bissonnette, he might have fit well with Melichar til Rozy returned. Til Rozy is back, I guess one of the killer Bs can fill this spot.

Pair 3: Focht-Lupaschuk

Focht has not been stellar, but compared to the killer Bs, he's been a lot better. I feel the lack of speed when he is paired with Melichar hurts us, so I dropped him to the 3rd pairing and gave him the assignment of pairing up with Lupaschuk. Lupo deserves a chance. As someone else posted, I'd much rather see Lupo make a few rookie mistakes than see a supposed veteran making all too common costly mistakes. Lupo also adds a huge booster to our PP, as he can pair with Tarnstrom and form two decent PP shooters. Straka at point just doesnt shoot enough, so I'd move Strak down and add Lupo.

Extras: One or two of the killer Bs.

Bergevin probably makes for the best extra, as he is perhaps the most sound defenseman out of the three killer Bs.

Goalies

Fleury-Caron

Fleury and Caron have both given proof they can keep the Pens in games, and have even won games for the Pens. I have no complaints with either two. As long as Aubin is not here, am happy.


I did give consideration to Kostopoulos and Beech. I'd also love Endicott to get here too. However, TK lacks the speed I wanted, has less of an upside and I fear will be a career AHLer. I do however feel TK is more deserving of a spot than Kraft. Beech needs to show me something in the AHL, and Endicott needs to get some consistency back into his game.

To conclude, the changes I propose should hopefully allow more speed, hustle and competitiveness. It also lowers the age, and allows a couple more youngsters to get their chance to contribute. To me, this would be more in keeping with the X Generation theme.

Koltsov71
10-26-2003, 07:30 AM
Where would you propose that McKenna, Webb, Kraft, etc go?

CJHF13
10-26-2003, 07:40 AM
Webb, 4th line. McKenna maybe defence if he looks good in practice?(why not?). Kraft goes 1st line, center.

GoPenguins
10-26-2003, 07:51 AM
Where would you propose that McKenna, Webb, Kraft, etc go?

Well, I would try and send Kraft down to the Baby Pens. We can only have room for so many. I dont know what to suggest to do with Kraft. He's had chances but seems unwilling to go to the net and is certainly lacking speed. I dont feel he won is spot on the roster solely because of his performace.

McKenna is hard, because he adds a lot to the team in terms of locker room cameraderie, as well as being a good teammate for the youngsters. However, he is hard to fit into the team. Right now, he's a fighter who cant really fight as he's wearing a visor (I read a fighter wearing a visor automatically draws an instigator penalty).

I enjoyed Steve Webb's effort last night but have only seen one game from him. Right now, the Pens have a fair amount of NHL veterans who might be more experienced and possibly could help the Pens better in the short term. However, there will come a time that playing a prospect to help him learn will be a better choice than depriving him a roster spot but having a journeyman NHLer there.

Darth Vitale
10-26-2003, 08:41 AM
My unscientific observation: there is a an anti-penguin force-field that persists around the New York Islanders and Montreal Canadiens from one season to the next. No matter what changes we make to this roster, we're going to lose to these b*stards more often than not.

:D

The Tang
10-26-2003, 08:54 AM
My proposed lines:

Forwards

Line 1: Straka-Lemieux-Morozov

Our team needs a bona fide no.1. This line has speed (Straka) and chemistry. It might not be the best defensively, but in theory, it should look dangerous enough offensively and so might often be up against checking lines.

Line 2: Koltsov-Fata-Surovy

I like this line. A lot of speed, good hustle, and a chance for young players to feed off each other. I added Surovy to give them someone who is hopefully trigger happy. Koltsov is best suited on the LW.

Line 3: Lefebvre-Sivek-Bradley

I wanted an energy checking line with scoring potential. I feel Lefebvre had shown great hustle when playing on a 3rd line last year with Johannson and Fata, and can put the puck in the net. He, and Bradley, also are not afraid of checking. I added Sivek here as Holzinger isnt adding much to the team. Sivek could move up here, but as Edzo likes to use 3-4 lines at least, Sivek should get decent minutes here.

Line 4: Malone-Eastwood-Buchberger

This line I dont envision playing as a regular line too often. I kept Malone as he seems to be a decent penalty killer, and adds hustle and speed. He also can go to the net if we need someone there on PP. He can also learn from two cagey veterans. After Buchberger's rather worrysome game against the Isles, I almost dropped him to the extras. However, he was signed as a role player, so I will keep him as a role player PK forward. Eastwood is our faceoff center and also kills penalties.

Extras: Holzinger, Abid

Abid to me is a tough guy to place on any line. He lacks great speed, and I dont know if he is that sound defensively. However, he does crash the net, so he makes for a good option to sub into the rotation for games we feel his style can excel at. Holzinger is here because he's on an NHL only contract and at least can hustle. He seems adaptable.

Defense

Pair 1: Tarnstrom-Orpik

Two of perhaps our best defensemen so far. Their styles seem to compliment each other well. Tarnstrom can be more effective if paired with a defensively minded and solid partner.

Pair 2: Melichar-Rozsival

I know Rozy's hurt, but when he's back am hoping he is re-united with Melichar. Again, one is more offensively minded than the other, and Roszival gives Melichar a speedier partner. He is currently with Focht, and neither are too fleet of foot. I think if we'd signed Bissonnette, he might have fit well with Melichar til Rozy returned. Til Rozy is back, I guess one of the killer Bs can fill this spot.

Pair 3: Focht-Lupaschuk

Focht has not been stellar, but compared to the killer Bs, he's been a lot better. I feel the lack of speed when he is paired with Melichar hurts us, so I dropped him to the 3rd pairing and gave him the assignment of pairing up with Lupaschuk. Lupo deserves a chance. As someone else posted, I'd much rather see Lupo make a few rookie mistakes than see a supposed veteran making all too common costly mistakes. Lupo also adds a huge booster to our PP, as he can pair with Tarnstrom and form two decent PP shooters. Straka at point just doesnt shoot enough, so I'd move Strak down and add Lupo.

Extras: One or two of the killer Bs.

Bergevin probably makes for the best extra, as he is perhaps the most sound defenseman out of the three killer Bs.

Goalies

Fleury-Caron


1st line- i do agree with switching Koltsov to the 2nd line so he can be on the left wing. i would like Morozov to stay off Mario's line because i feel he still needs to prove himself, but sadly we dont have many options.

2nd line- i like the 2nd line, fast and hard. fata and koltsov on the same line could wreak havoc on the defenders. plus, i wouldnt mind giving Surovy another shot


3rd line- for me it would be: malone-abid-bradley
malone and bradley have decent speed so can somewhat make up for abids. i think it would be a pretty good checking line that could put up some points.

4th line- webb/Mckenna-eastwood-buch
eastwood hasnt done much at all, and i would rather see someone like lefebvre up here than him or mckenna. i do like how buch ahs been playing though

Kraft and Holzinger- at this point i dont care what they get for holzinger, just get rid of him. as for Kraft, well, see if there is anything you can get, cause i dont think he will ever flourish here

Defense:

i like your pairings, except i would keep Berehowsky instead of Lupo. i know what people think, but from what i saw in preseason, lupo's dfensive play still has quite a few shortcomings. i would like to see him play more in wbs to get better. i wouldnt be surprised at a mid season call up though.

Bergevin seems to be slipping pretty bad so far, and Baumgartner just doesnt seem to add much. i think we should put him in the category with Holzinger and Kraft.

Jacob
10-26-2003, 11:12 AM
And I thought our current team was bad. That team would get manhandled night in, night out.

The Tang
10-26-2003, 01:15 PM
And I thought our current team was bad. That team would get manhandled night in, night out.
are you refering to mine or GoPenguins?

Koltsov71
10-26-2003, 02:56 PM
Both probably.

GoPenguins
10-26-2003, 06:03 PM
And I thought our current team was bad. That team would get manhandled night in, night out.

Well, the point I was making with my post wasnt to try and convince any of you that the changes would immediately improve the team we are currently fielding. However, in the long run perhaps the youth can learn and improve.

My lineup only had a couple of changes to our existing lineup, so its hardly different to the one we are currently fielding. However, if you want to watch Kraft, McKenna, Baumgartner and the like, thats entirely your choice.

My post was just to encourage discussion - to see if anyone else would like to see more of the younger players getting a chance.

G DIDDY
10-26-2003, 06:59 PM
And I thought our current team was bad. That team would get manhandled night in, night out.

I think you are heavily overrating the REAL Penguins, they aren't bad they are aboslutely getting man handled. But I hope Edzo choose either of the two lineups mentioned, thaty way we might have 110% chance of getting Alexander Ovechkin compared to an 100% chance.

The Tang
10-26-2003, 06:59 PM
My post was just to encourage discussion - to see if anyone else would like to see more of the younger players getting a chance.
as much as i would like to see some of the younger players get a chance, i would like to see more players like Webb too. the high energy heavy hitting players to me are under rated, and i'd like to have at least one more player like web, and preferably dump eastwood, holzinger and kraft.

Jacob
10-26-2003, 09:43 PM
I think you are heavily overrating the REAL Penguins, they aren't bad they are aboslutely getting man handled. But I hope Edzo choose either of the two lineups mentioned, thaty way we might have 110% chance of getting Alexander Ovechkin compared to an 100% chance.
Our greatest chance of getting Ovechkin is 25%.

Pens Fan
10-27-2003, 01:24 AM
i was totally disgusted with the Pens choices to start the season. I thought a rebuilding period was to help build the younger guys not play absolute bums like Bergevin and McKenna. Now i thought Eastwood and Buchberger would help the young guys but Eastwood sucks at faceoffs this year and has not played well. Buchberger is invaluable to teach these young guys tlo play rough and make the hits. Now this is my opinion on the play of certain players this year. I have been to all the home games so far.

Malone-very good 3rd line hustler. should stay and learn grit role better. can PK decent

Koltsov-Has gotten better every game. Fast as heck, should play to that strength.

Fata-Good at all aspects. Probably the best player so far this year

Abid-Needs to play with skill to show his skill off. Bigger tough with some scoring. Hope they dont give up on him yet.

Kraft-If you go back and look at last year when he played with Kovy adn Sivek he played very well. To show Skill you have to playe with not play on the 3rd or 4th line. Always in the wrong role. Also in my mind he played well against Detroit.

Bradley-Nothing really to make me think he will be good. But anything we could get for Wayne Primeau is great. I thought used pucks was too much.

Buchberger-Must keep.

Lemieux-Straka-Morozov-Tarnstrom-Should be leading by examp.

Orpik-Absolutely love the way this kid plays. The only one with the guts to hit some one in front of the net.

Melichar-Not bad, not good, needs to play bigger because he isnt a point man

Focht-Surprised by his mediocrity thought he was much worse. 6'6" please hit more.

Berehowsky-Not the player we thought he was. Very bad this whole year.

Eastwood-McKenna-Bergevin-Baumgartner-These guys are absolutely HORRIBLE. They make me yearn for the days of Wayne Primeau and Ian Moran...Oh god nevermind.

Webb-Definately another Buchberger type we need.Havent seen him play but i liked the way he demolished the Pens last year.

Fleury-Pimp of the year....But might go crazy ala Moose. I Know i would.

If i forgot anyone sorry.

kutdacheez
10-27-2003, 05:51 AM
Okay, now that we’ve given this mentoring thing it’s just do . . . how do you think it’s going, so far? One more game and we will have 1/10 of the season in. Personally, as I suggested before the season started . . . we have way too many mentors. And, when you add in the locker room comics to that total I think the "roster" is the problem. Especially if you viewed this as a development (in the NHL) year for some players who are now residing in WB/S.

Below, I’ve listed the team into four classifications:
(a) the mentor,
(b) the mentored,
(c) the middle group, and
(d) the good locker room guys

The mentor(s)
Lemieux
Eastwood
Berehowsky
Holzinger
Buchberger
Bergevin
Straka
Olczyk
Hillier
Mullen
Molleken

The mentored
Fata
Malone
Koltsov
Abid
Orpik
Kraft
Murely
Focht
Bradley
Caron
Fluery

The middle group
Morozov
Tarnstorm
Melichar
Rozsival
Baumgartner

The good locker room guys
McKenna
Simpson
Webb

I thought the X-Generation was going to be a team of youth, with a couple of veteran “mentors” (besides the coaches who mentor full-time). But, what I see here is a group of “mentors” that are close in number to the mentored. Is that the way “mentoring” is supposed to go? I don’t think so and I think we are getting a little SMOKED by the Penguin Marketing group on this X-Generation Stuff.

Let’s start at the performance of our two defense mentors:
Berehowsky is the playing the best of two defensive (player) mentors. Six games and he has an even (+/-) rating. However, he has one point and two SOG.
Begevin has taken a couple of dumb penalties during crucial points in the game, has zero points, is a -1, and has three SOG in seven games.

Now, let’s look at our many forward mentors:
Lemieux gets excused from practices (where’s does his mentoring get done). Mario has scored only one goal but has been on the ice for 10 of the opponents goals. Nice On-ice mentoring job so far.
Eastwood had a super feed to setup Straka’s goal but isn’t doing so well at winning face-offs and has a grand total of zero SOG in his seven games. Maybe it is he that is mentoring Kraft, eh?
Holzinger is a prime example of a mentor who really isn’t a mentor. He averages less than a SOG a game, has zero points and is playing at a minus 3. Possibly he should be mentored.
Buckberger is averaging about a SOG every other game, has zero points, is a minus 5 and maybe is the ones the mentored are listening to. Let’s hope not, eh?
Straka isn’t really a mentor but he does lead by example. However, I was wondering what the mentored think about his handling of the point position so far this year?
Our forward “mentors” have a total of three goals so far this season . . . BTW, our defense mentors have zero. So it might be safe to say that they may be better teachers than players. But even so, how many mentors do we really need? And, how bad does a mentor have to perform when someone finally says “enough of this”, “I don’t got to do none of this stink’n mentoring anymore".

Here’s a suggestion for improvement to the team.
Number one suggestion:
Mario should be at the practices. He’s making enough in his salary that he should be expected at practice. Unless, as a mentor, his absence from the practice is perceived as teaching the kids a good thing.
Number two suggestion:
We have two X-Generation players in WB/S and another that should be playing up here. Their names and reasons:
Thomas Surovy. Main reason is he shoots the puck and puts it in the net.
Ross Lupaschuk. Main reason is he shoots the puck and puts it in the net.
Just so that SOG don't go unnoticed . . . our total defensemen (less Tarnstrom who gets about all his SOG during the PP) have 0 goals, 2 assists and a grand total of 19 SOG in 35 man-games. That's just over 1 SOG every other game.
Tom Kostopoulus. Because he hustles and gives his all on every shift. That’s a perfect mentor IMHO. As much as I never was a supporter of him he would fit this team similar to the way Phil Bourque fit this team. Always hustling always working.
Number three suggestion:
Send down, trade or cut three of the following: McKenna, Holzinger, Berekowsky, Baumgartner, Bergevin, Eastwood or Straka.
Obviously, Straka would be the trade, but that's a whole other story.

Don'tcry4mejanhrdina
10-27-2003, 07:31 AM
I read somewhere that Lemieux missed a practice because he was at a funeral. And look at the ice time he's getting. He is 38 after all. Do you want all of his energy gone by the 20th game of the season?

The Tang
10-27-2003, 10:36 AM
i dont mind as long as he doesnt miss too many practices. the main reason i think he needs to be there is to lead by example, but when you think about it, he really doesnt need to practice.

GoPenguins
10-27-2003, 01:40 PM
i dont mind as long as he doesnt miss too many practices. the main reason i think he needs to be there is to lead by example, but when you think about it, he really doesnt need to practice.

I think Mario practicing is an interesting point. Whilst I admit I dont think we need him doing speed sprints, laps or other heavy workload physical training, I hope he spends all of his time working and passing along his experience and knowledge to those that need it. Certainly after viewing our powerplay so far, it needs all the practice it can get. Of course, if we just shot more often, perhaps that might improve the PP.

Have we come close to outshooting anyone so far?

Der Schweinehund
10-27-2003, 02:26 PM
I thought the X-Generation was going to be a team of youth, with a couple of veteran “mentors” (besides the coaches who mentor full-time).

That's what it should be.

Let’s start at the performance of our two defense mentors:

Key problem - Berehowsky does not belong in the mentoring category. If he was picked up to be in the role of a mentor, big, big mistake. Bergevin's capacity is (on a bad team with little depth - which this is) the 6th defenseman at best with 10 minutes per night. More appropriately, with better mentors available, this is a guy who rarely plays, provides off-ice training mentoring as well as 'stress relief.'

The other big problem is that I have very little confidence in Hillier as a defensive coach. There are so many real fundamental mistakes happening that should be knocked out now. Key in my book is the first pass out of the zone, which is typically dangerous east-to-west in their own zone. Bad defensemen...bad!

Another huge issue I have is this is not a coaching group I would put in place for mentoring a systematic style of hockey. Please - does anyone remember Edzo or Mullen for their defensive commitment? I am not saying you can't teach these dogs new tricks - after all Jacques Lemaire was a offensive powerhouse, yet many credit (or discredit) him for creating the defensive hockey we see today. But the issue is that both Edzo and Mullen didn't have any coaching tutoring or experience of their own to help them face the challenges. (I really, really, really wish we had hired Marc Habscheid or Brent Peterson.)

Utlimately, this team is somewhat further ahead than I expected, just a dribble into the season. That being said, there is only one reason - Marc-Andre Fleury. My major disappointment is that apart from dribs and drabs of a couple of games, I have seen nothing come out of the style that Edzo said he would bring in. And I haven't seen what I personally asked for - a 60 minute effort, night in and night out.

But, it is early - no need to panic. No need at all. None whatsoever. Nope...nada. (Excuse me while I sob...)

Der Schweinehund
10-27-2003, 02:27 PM
Our greatest chance of getting Ovechkin is 25%.

100% to get a 25% chance? :p

kutdacheez
10-28-2003, 05:34 AM
But the issue is that both Edzo and Mullen didn't have any coaching tutoring or experience of their own to help them face the challenges. (I really, really, really wish we had hired Marc Habscheid or Brent Peterson.)
I still am supporting the risk by CP (and Mario) to bring Edzo in. Edzo is the coach, the coordinator. It's Mullen, Hillier and Molleken who have the real "positional" type mentoring jobs. That is, if there is such a thing, as you know I think this mentoring, by roster players is way overrated . . . and I would much rather see Beech, Lupaschuk, Surovy and Kostopoulis here rather than see, Holtzinger, Eastwood, Buchberger and Berekowsky.

And I haven't seen what I personally asked for - a 60 minute effort, night in and night out. But, it is early - no need to panic. No need at all. None whatsoever. Nope...nada. (Excuse me while I sob...)
I don't think that you see the 60-minute effort, by everyone for 82 games. So far, I don't have any complaints except for thinking I would rather see Kraft, Beech, Lupaschuk and Kostopoulis playing (and learng) here rather than seeing hockey journeyman, on their last journey.

DJ Spinoza
10-28-2003, 10:58 AM
A team full of 22 year olds would be a total disaster.

Der Schweinehund
10-29-2003, 02:00 AM
I still am supporting the risk by CP (and Mario) to bring Edzo in. Edzo is the coach, the coordinator.

I support Edzo, but I will always question the decision. Do you really want a guy who has to learn to do his job at the same time as his 'employees' (players) do?

That is, if there is such a thing, as you know I think this mentoring, by roster players is way overrated . . . and I would much rather see Beech, Lupaschuk, Surovy and Kostopoulis here rather than see, Holtzinger, Eastwood, Buchberger and Berekowsky.

We shall always agree to disagree on this point. I just can't see how this team or the players are further ahead be throwing all of the kids at once into the fire. Not everyone has the attitude of MAF - and we have seen little or no progress at either level from some players who we 'expect' results from (Beech and Kraft namely). But no question, I am certainly for Lupaschuk and Surovy (especially) being up here in lieu of the deadwood like Berehowsky and Holzinger. Buchberger and Eastwood have the experience and attitude to qualify as mentors. Holzinger and Berehowsky are nothing more than injury prone fringe players - not mentor material.

The other available mentor player I would like to have on the roster right now (in place of McKenna & Holzinger) would be Steve Thomas. I really think we could use a guy who has made a living by being in the crease. Just ask what Dave Andreychuk has meant to the Lightning in that type of capacity.

I don't think that you see the 60-minute effort, by everyone for 82 games. So far, I don't have any complaints except for thinking I would rather see Kraft, Beech, Lupaschuk and Kostopoulis playing (and learng) here rather than seeing hockey journeyman, on their last journey.

To beat the dead horse (as I am sure most people do not read our debates) I have no problem with solid hockey players (a la Eastwood and Buchberger) ending their journey's and helping their replacements find the way. I do have a problem with the fringe, coulda/shoulda-beens that do exist on the roster.

kutdacheez
10-29-2003, 02:38 AM
I support Edzo, but I will always question the decision. Do you really want a guy who has to learn to do his job at the same time as his 'employees' (players) do?
I may join in on your side if it is really proven that Edzo is all hot air. But, so far I like what I've seen from him. Sometimes the old, thought never to be changed traditions of the NHL just need a whack up side the head. This is a good one and almost every publication, especially SI has siad this move was stupid. We'll see.

We shall always agree to disagree on this point. I just can't see how this team or the players are further ahead be throwing all of the kids at once into the fire. Not everyone has the attitude of MAF - and we have seen little or no progress at either level from some players who we 'expect' results from (Beech and Kraft namely).
I don't disagree a couple of "mentors" on the team . . . just not the load we a re carrying. As for Beech and Kraft, Beech isn't here and Kraft gets less ice time then let's say, Kelly Buchberger and Matt Bradley. Buchberger and Bradley (both) of 7 games, 0 goals, 0 assists and the -5's. so, while it may be easy and in fashion to bring up Kraft and Beech, maybe some attention should start to focus on those that are getting the ice time instead.

But no question, I am certainly for Lupaschuk and Surovy (especially) being up here in lieu of the deadwood like Berehowsky and Holzinger. Buchberger and Eastwood have the experience and attitude to qualify as mentors. Holzinger and Berehowsky are nothing more than injury prone fringe players - not mentor material.
I think enough time has been put in now to see what these guys are made up of and the sorting out process will begin. I still think that this season we will see a lot of exchanging of players between Pittsburgh and WB/S. Whoopie for the frequent-flyer miles.

The other available mentor player I would like to have on the roster right now (in place of McKenna & Holzinger) would be Steve Thomas. I really think we could use a guy who has made a living by being in the crease. Just ask what Dave Andreychuk has meant to the Lightning in that type of capacity.
I like the idea. Steve Thomas has about another year (maybe two left) but again . . . how Many Mentors Make the Mix a Mistake? I think we are really over mentoring right now!


To beat the dead horse (as I am sure most people do not read our debates) I have no problem with solid hockey players (a la Eastwood and Buchberger) ending their journey's and helping their replacements find the way. I do have a problem with the fringe, coulda/shoulda-beens that do exist on the roster.
First sign that Edzo is seeing the future . . . scratched for tonight's game Brian Holzinger and Dan Focht. I will stay with my pre-season predition: Hozinger will end up in WB/S and Focht is nowhere as good as some of our poster board claim.

Der Schweinehund
10-29-2003, 08:25 AM
I may join in on your side if it is really proven that Edzo is all hot air. But, so far I like what I've seen from him. Sometimes the old, thought never to be changed traditions of the NHL just need a whack up side the head. This is a good one and almost every publication, especially SI has siad this move was stupid. We'll see.

I agree with you about the head 'whack' with respect to the traditions in and around coaching. I wasn't necessarily for anyone with NHL coaching experience - just experience coaching period. It's great that Edzo's previous experience did give him a lot of experience in and around the team - it still comes back to the coaching thing.

He does deserve the benefit of the doubt and I will give it to him. My bone to pick moreso right now is in the fit of Hillier and Mullen into trying to coach a 'system.'

I don't disagree a couple of "mentors" on the team . . . just not the load we a re carrying. As for Beech and Kraft, Beech isn't here and Kraft gets less ice time then let's say, Kelly Buchberger and Matt Bradley. Buchberger and Bradley (both) of 7 games, 0 goals, 0 assists and the -5's. so, while it may be easy and in fashion to bring up Kraft and Beech, maybe some attention should start to focus on those that are getting the ice time instead.

I like the idea. Steve Thomas has about another year (maybe two left) but again . . . how Many Mentors Make the Mix a Mistake? I think we are really over mentoring right now!


I don't think we are over mentoring at the moment. Most veterans and quasi-veterans don't fit into the mentoring group. I don't even think that Mario is a mentor. Not that he cannot or does not want to be, rather it is sheer situation. I am not sure a lot of kids would be as open to going up to their ultimate boss, who also happens to be a legend, and asking for tips on how to pressure a man off the puck or the like.

Buch and Eastwood are mentors. Bergevin, from a training and "handling day-to-day NHL life" perspective are mentors. The other 'elders' I have huge problems with given they are not veterans, they are not mentors - they are just fringe players who happen to take up roster spots on a really bad team. Those are the players who are taking away ice time from young players who should be there and real mentors who could be there (a la Steve Thomas). I would prefer to see a better mentor on defense in place of Berehowsky - who is a warm body fringe player. In my all-things-being equal, perfect world my roster would see changes like...

Outright buh-bye: Holzinger, McKenna & Berehowsky (damn close to adding Bergevin)
Minors (or buh-bye if it happens): Kraft, Baumgartner, & Focht

Hello 'real' mentors: Steve Thomas and TBD mentor defenseman
Hello deserving youth: Lupaschuk, Beech, Surovy, and Kostopolous

But this is not a perfect world and is certainly not equal.

Koltsov71
10-29-2003, 08:31 AM
To beat the dead horse.

http://media.TheInsiders.com/Media/Other/229031_beatdeadhorse.GIF

They make a smilie for everything.

Der Schweinehund
10-29-2003, 08:33 AM
http://media.TheInsiders.com/Media/Other/229031_beatdeadhorse.GIF

They make a smilie for everything.


Damn - good one. Although I would entitle that one "Dim Sum" after the lunch I just had.

The Tang
10-29-2003, 10:05 AM
http://media.TheInsiders.com/Media/Other/229031_beatdeadhorse.GIF

They make a smilie for everything.
lol! thats awsome

Der Schweinehund
10-29-2003, 01:55 PM
Cheez - this (http://www.nhlpa.com/Content/FEATURES/feature_stories.asp?ID=3261) is what I am talking about...exactly what I preach! :p