Kraft being shopped

spence___
10-29-2003, 08:08 PM
Supposedly several teams are interested. I wonder how this will affect Sivek, since they seemed to play their best hockey together.

http://post-gazette.com/penguins/20031030penslog1030p5.asp

The Tang
10-29-2003, 08:19 PM
not surrpising really. im wondering what teams will actually give up for him though.

Don'tcry4mejanhrdina
10-29-2003, 08:26 PM
I hope they get a decent return. I still think he can play pretty decent.

Unholy Diver
10-29-2003, 08:33 PM
We'll probably get Daigle or Dome back for Kraft

Jacob
10-29-2003, 08:37 PM
Anybody we get back that will be ready to play immediately will suck. I hope we just go with a draft pick or a green prospect.

Ticallion961
10-29-2003, 09:51 PM
Anybody we get back that will be ready to play immediately will suck. I hope we just go with a draft pick or a green prospect.

I agree..we won't get any players that can step in. I'd rather just keep Kraft for the time being, if someone gets injured on the top two lines, i'd like to see him as the replacement

Alex Kovalev
10-29-2003, 09:56 PM
Maybe Vancouver... Umberger? I dont think its neccessarily fair but the Pens could throw more towards the Canucks if needed.

Proffessor G DIDDY
10-30-2003, 01:00 AM
Yeah that wouldn't be a bad idea, packaging Kraft with a 2nd Rounder. Here's an idea:

Kraft + Caron + 2nd Round Pick (VAN) --> Alexander Svitov

He fell out favour with the training in TP and consequently spent the whole year on the 4th line. This kid easily turn out to the be a player between a Bobby Holik ( when he was with NJ) and a Radek Bonk.

Evilo
10-30-2003, 02:43 AM
Yeah that wouldn't be a bad idea, packaging Kraft with a 2nd Rounder. Here's an idea:

Kraft + Caron + 2nd Round Pick (VAN) --> Alexander Svitov

He fell out favour with the training in TP and consequently spent the whole year on the 4th line. This kid easily turn out to the be a player between a Bobby Holik ( when he was with NJ) and a Radek Bonk.
Too much for Svitov.
He's not as highly regarded as a few years back.

G DIDDY
10-30-2003, 02:46 AM
OK how about we swap the 2nd rounder to a 3rd or 4th rounder. I still believe this kid is good player.

kutdacheez
10-30-2003, 03:00 AM
How about . . . Milan Kraft, J-S Aubin and Kris Beech to Vancouver, in exchange for R J Umberger,Alex Auld and Fedor Federov?

SuburbanRhythm
10-30-2003, 04:31 AM
Anybody we get back that will be ready to play immediately will suck. I hope we just go with a draft pick or a green prospect.

I think this is the most realistic, and maybe most palatable deal to Pittsburgh-- again as far as realistic deals...we aren't getting Gaborik or something like that.

Pens already have surplus of young players they are trying to develop. Unless he's a sure-fire prospect [which we are not getting for Kraft], get draft pick(s) we can use later on, for players, or future trades, and take the nearly $1 mil salary dump.

Koltsov71
10-30-2003, 05:12 AM
Whatever it takes to send him packing, I'm in favor.

Hopefully we'll at least get a decent pick.

Big McLargehuge
10-30-2003, 05:22 AM
What use would Auld have here?

In Vancouver he's behind two goalies and here he'd be behind two...but the difference is our goalies are much younger...

I honestly hate to see Kraft go, but god has he been a dissapointment and I doubt he'll turn it around here. It's a shame too, he had a decent work ethic and he's far from a headcase...he just couldn't perform come game time.

Pensfan66
10-30-2003, 07:10 AM
Its obvious Kraft hasn't developed here as hoped, like most I think he needs a change of senery. What I am most worried about is whatever team we trade him to gets him to play up to his full potential and he becomes another Jason Allison type. If this happens who do we blame? The coaching staff in WBS or Kehoe or the whole organization's stubborness over the years in not developing young players and surrounding them with the right people? The trade with TB is a good suggestion trying to get Svitov.

Der Schweinehund
10-30-2003, 08:26 AM
Here's my offer. There's a couple of players who have seen the press-box lately in Buffalo that might just need a change of scenery.

So...

To Buffalo: Milan Kraft & Guillaume Lefevbre (and/or draft pick)

To Pens: Maxim Afinogenov & Andy Delmore

Increases Pens speed even more and gives another R-shot PP QB. For the Sabres it gives them a big, young center as well as a good depth winger. Thoughts?

Der Schweinehund
10-30-2003, 08:27 AM
Another option might be the Habs. They really, really need a center with some size.

Don'tcry4mejanhrdina
10-30-2003, 08:33 AM
I wouldn't mind having Afinogenov on the pens. Doesn't he play similar to Koltsov? Delmore would also look good on the point right now. He isn't very good defensively, but I think the benefits of Delmore on the point would outway the risks.

Koltsov71
10-30-2003, 09:59 AM
But would the Sabers deal Delmore? If I recall correctly, they aren't exactly stacked on defense either.

And for someone who is supposed to be offensive, he's not showing it this season. Pointless through ten games.

Der Schweinehund
10-30-2003, 10:14 AM
But would the Sabers deal Delmore? If I recall correctly, they aren't exactly stacked on defense either.

And for someone who is supposed to be offensive, he's not showing it this season. Pointless through ten games.

I think you sort of answer your own question there. They acquired him for offense and he hasn't done diddley. According to Danny Gare this morning on the Fan590 (which prompted me to think of this option), Delmore has earned himself a seat in the press box tonight and doesn't think he will be back on the ice anytime soon.

Sabres have more depth than we do - of course that's not saying much. You still have experience with Zhitnik, McKee, Patrick, and even Fitzpatrick. And then you have highly regarded youth with Campbell, Tallinder, and especially, Kalinin. They can probably live without Delmore given he isn't doing squat of what he should be - offense!

Plus they also have that nice ace-in-the-hole they have to cash in at some point with Biron, Noronen, and Miller. One of them could fetch a nice defenseman.

And I would certainly be willing/happy to throw in Nolan Baumgartner if they are really concerned about losing a defenseman. ;)

Jacob
10-30-2003, 11:05 AM
Too much for Svitov.
He's not as highly regarded as a few years back.
Neither is Kraft.


I would love to get Svitov.

AEKaki
10-30-2003, 12:04 PM
Kraft for Stefan

I wish

Kraft for Umberger would look nice too.

As would a trade for Comrie :P :teach:

AEKaki
10-30-2003, 12:06 PM
Another option might be the Habs. They really, really need a center with some size.

I would love to have Mike Ribiero (might be tradable once Koivu gets back).
Hossa is not bad, Ward impressed me late last season.

Jeff Goldblum
10-30-2003, 12:13 PM
Kraft for Afinogenov works for me. Maxim would fit better with the Pens system due to his speed. And i believe he's been sitting in Buffalo lately. This could be a possibility.

Jag68Sid87
10-30-2003, 12:20 PM
Markus Naslund, Aleksey Morozov, Andreas Johansson, Andrew Ference, Robert Dome, Milan Kraft.

Sometimes, it pays to be patient.

kutdacheez
10-30-2003, 12:38 PM
What use would Auld have here?

In Vancouver he's behind two goalies and here he'd be behind two...but the difference is our goalies are much younger...
That's a fair question. IMO any trade proposal has to be a win-win for both teams or it's just BS junk reading. Milan Kraft and Kris beech have a little bit of a following in the Western Caanda area. Kraft playing so well with the Price Albert Raiders and Kris Beech born and raised there along with the time with the Calgary Hitmen.
Getting a (?) prospect back in R J Umberger makes anice story if he eventually pairs up on a line with Malone. Umberger's stock has apparently gone as far south as Kraft's and Beech's. Fedor Fedorov hasn't cut it and Brian Burke has picked on him from the beginning . . . yet he's playing pretty well with the Manitoba Moose. Now come the J-S Aubin exchange for Alex Auld. IMO Aubin isn't going to cut it in the Penguin organization. BUT, I am one of the few that thinks he's still a pretty good goalie. It's the $$$. Auld, on the other hand is improving at a pretty decent rate (right, Der Schweinehund)? At 6' 4" he covers a lot of net and a change of scenery would be good for him also.
IMO, we add to the "term" X-Generation with some new faces. So does Vancouver.
I honestly hate to see Kraft go, but god has he been a dissapointment and I doubt he'll turn it around here. It's a shame too, he had a decent work ethic and he's far from a headcase...he just couldn't perform come game time.
That was said a lot about Markus Naslund and Patrick Lalime too!

kutdacheez
10-30-2003, 12:42 PM
They acquired him for offense and he hasn't done diddley.
So he can't play defense (which we all know) and now he can't play offense , either? Sounds like a guy we should go after. :D
It's hard to believe anyone would bench someone like that.

Evilo
10-30-2003, 12:43 PM
Neither is Kraft.


I would love to get Svitov.
And would you trade a prospect, a young NHL goalie with plenty of potential and a 2nd rounder for Kraft ?
Way too much for a prospect on the downhill (reputation-wise).
Caron for Svitov is already too much.

I could see a package deal with Kraft, Sivek and Aubin for something substential like a good prospect and a pick.

Rowsdower
10-30-2003, 01:07 PM
Neither is Kraft.


I would love to get Svitov.

As would I....he's still got quite a bit of potential, and could center our 3rd line (as we are lacking a 3rd line center, and I cringe whenever Holzinger fills that role)....

I like the idea of getting Svitov, though I'm unsure what it would take....I also like the idea of getting guys like Afinoganov and Brendl...it's obvious Kraft needs a change in scenery and I'm just glad to see there is reportedly some interest from other teams....

Rowsdower
10-30-2003, 01:11 PM
Markus Naslund, Aleksey Morozov, Andreas Johansson, Andrew Ference, Robert Dome, Milan Kraft.

Sometimes, it pays to be patient.

I'm sorry, but what exactly has anyone after the first two listed players done to prove that point?

Big McLargehuge
10-30-2003, 01:19 PM
Markus Naslund, Aleksey Morozov, Andreas Johansson, Andrew Ference, Robert Dome, Milan Kraft.

Sometimes, it pays to be patient.

Naslund definitely
Morozov maybe
Johansson was solid as a Penguin and hasn't been any more anywhere else. The only reason his numbers have been higher is because he's been a second line player when he was often a healthy scratch here due to depth.
Ference needed a change of scenery, even still he's average at best.
Dome hasn't played in the NHL since he left Pittsburgh
Kraft still has to be seen.

The Naslund trade has made Patrick a little(read: very) gun shy when it comes to trading youth, but still a move is the best thing for Kraft. He's not going to cut it here, it's not because of his work, it's not because of his attitude, it's just something that can't be explained. These things are common, look at Tarnstrom when he came here, or Robert Lang, or what about Jan Hlavac's inability to do anything outside of the Rangers organization?

Will it burn if Kraft turns things around when/if he leaves? Hell yeah, but I'd rather see him do well elsewhere than him play 20 games a season here and not puting points on the board.

Koltsov71
10-30-2003, 01:53 PM
Dome hasn't played in the NHL since he left Pittsburgh.

Actually, yes he has. And I'm sure he'll get a callup this year as well.

Big McLargehuge
10-30-2003, 01:55 PM
Sorry, he played one game with the Flames last year...

The Tang
10-30-2003, 02:16 PM
the Pens traded Ference because he couldnt be sent down w/o clearing waivers, and somebody would have picked him. he was having a bad year, so they figured mght as well get somehting for him rather than the waiver fee. so his situation is a little different.

GoPenguins
10-30-2003, 02:58 PM
Anybody we get back that will be ready to play immediately will suck. I hope we just go with a draft pick or a green prospect.


In addition to Umberger, Svitov, Comrie etc, there's also Stephen Weiss down in Florida. Perhaps Florida can throw in Kristian Huselius too :)

I dont see Kraft attracting great players who can contribute now. However, there might be other teams out there who have their equivalent Milan Kraft in their system. Sometimes, a change in scenery can spark a prospect. Rico Fata certainly is benefitting from a change in scenery. As is Marc Savard.

Right now, I dont see where he factors into Edzo's plans, and rather than paying him to ride pine, or risk sending him down through the waiver wire, I'd love for us to explore trading options.

As mentioned above, packaging Kraft and a pick might land us something nice too :)

No Quarter
10-30-2003, 04:05 PM
[QUOTE=Scarface]Kraft to Carolina

Brendl to Pittsburgh



I'd be all over that.

Darth Vitale
10-30-2003, 04:13 PM
Kraft, Straka, and Aubin to Minnesota for Marian Gaborik.

:D

OK seriously...

Kraft to any team who will take him for a Second Round Pick in 2004.

;)

PensFan68
10-30-2003, 04:21 PM
I would like to work out a deal for Svitov. He probably isn't NHL ready, but we are going with a youth theme, so why not? He'd be a nice addition to the third line. He smart in his own zone, will play physical, and can contribute offensively. With his size, he may be a nice addition to the front of the net on the PP.

If it's true that the Lightning aren't as high on him, I think CP should see what it would take.

Wingboy2999
10-30-2003, 04:45 PM
Here's my offer. There's a couple of players who have seen the press-box lately in Buffalo that might just need a change of scenery.

So...

To Buffalo: Milan Kraft & Guillaume Lefevbre (and/or draft pick)

To Pens: Maxim Afinogenov & Andy Delmore

Increases Pens speed even more and gives another R-shot PP QB. For the Sabres it gives them a big, young center as well as a good depth winger. Thoughts?

I'd take this deal and run with it.

Proffessor G DIDDY
10-30-2003, 05:59 PM
The Buffalo deal has a lot of benefits. But quite frankly it isn't going to happen. The Svitov deal is real possibility.

I really like Alexander Svitov, he plays an aggressive two way game. And played pretty damn good on the 4th line. And look at the type of centre's he was behind, Brad Richards and Vinny Lecavlavier. Besides we really need his size in 2nd/3rd line centre spot.

Big McLargehuge
10-30-2003, 06:23 PM
I'd looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooove to see Svitov in a Pens jersey, but I don't see it.

It'll probably be for an underachiever prospect like an Umberger or Brendl.

The Tang
10-30-2003, 06:39 PM
i really dont want brendle. he didnt work out in philly, or carolina. failing in two places worries me...

Big McLargehuge
10-30-2003, 06:43 PM
Don't forget New York.

The guy is what? 22...and we'd be his fourth team.

His potential is intriguing...but his work ethic makes Robert Dome look like Lemieux...

The Tang
10-30-2003, 06:51 PM
but i dont think he played a game w/ NY. i think he was sent over in the linros deal before he played his first nhl game. we all know how the rangers love trading prospects. i could be wrong though.

DJ Spinoza
10-30-2003, 06:58 PM
May as well keep Kraft if we are trading for Brendl.

Brendl would be a fresh face, but is the same age as Kraft and as of now has the same tag.

Koltsov71
10-30-2003, 07:50 PM
Brendl actually played well in training camp. He's still unbearably slow, though.

Jacob
10-30-2003, 11:39 PM
The majority of these trade proposals are laughable. This is Milan Kraft we're talking about, folks! He freaking blows!


If a team can't get Kraft for dirt cheap in a trade they'll simply wait until he's on waivers or a free agent.

kutdacheez
10-31-2003, 03:21 AM
Ference is a regular on the flames blueline, i think CP gave up on him too quickly, he had the talent, he showed us in the playoffs, but he went thru some injury trouble..its funny how we dump him and keep Josef, Josef the same guy that's played what 40 games the past 3yrs or something?
So yer what . . . suggesting we should have kept jockey-defenseman Andy Ference and his great locker room presence and dumped Melichar instead? Surely you jest.

Markus Naslund - what patience? he was good already, he just didnt like it in pittsburgh
???? There is no doubt that this ended up as one of the worst trades ever made by CP. One the reasons it was so bad was that Stojanov after rolling his Ford Explorer never could come back from the injuries. Do you know personally that he didn't like it here? That's a new one, for me anyhow.

Aleksey Morozov - soo damn overrated i won't even say anything else.
Who is overrating him?

Robert Dome - Parents died, should have cut him some slack and helped him out, his situation was handled poorly i know many ppl disagree with this guy, but i think he still is a solid prospect.
Well, he may still be a solid prospect . . . but I doubt that.
Laying blame on Penguin management for his situation however is pretty lame. The blame for the out of shape, pissy attitude lays solely on him with a little help from his greedy agent who had him playing pro hockey at a very early age.
What slack didn't the Penguins cut him, Scarface? How did they not do what they should have in regard to his personal situation? Do you really have anything concrete or do you just throw stuff out hoping some of it will stick to the walls?

Darth Vitale
10-31-2003, 09:26 AM
The majority of these trade proposals are laughable. This is Milan Kraft we're talking about, folks! He freaking blows! If a team can't get Kraft for dirt cheap in a trade they'll simply wait until he's on waivers or a free agent.


What are you saying... that there isn't a team out there who would trade their next 2nd round pick straight up for Krafty?

:D

gibber1600
10-31-2003, 12:08 PM
not surrpising really. im wondering what teams will actually give up for him though.
Not much right now. Give him a little more time.

Jag68Sid87
10-31-2003, 01:02 PM
Why would ANY offensive player have hated Pittsburgh during the Lemieux/Jagr era? Sure, it wasn't easy getting ice time but Naslund would eventually have made his mark. Patrick simply didn't wait long enough, and that's my only point re: Kraft. I know Johansson wasn't here long but I don't think he was given much of a chance. Dome was handled wrong since his name was announced on draft day and Ference was injured when deemed expendable...not smart at all.

The Tang
10-31-2003, 09:49 PM
Not as much the pens fans but on the other threads they consider him to be an "offensive threat," i don't get why, he still hasn't shown much promise on his own...Koltsov looks better.
i want to say something, but i promised the Pens board i wouldnt get on Morozov's case anymore...

Jacob
11-01-2003, 12:16 AM
Red_Bull, have you ever watched a Penguins game? Ever? Because every time you post something I become more and more convinced that you haven't.

No Quarter
11-01-2003, 07:22 AM
Not as much the pens fans but on the other threads they consider him to be an "offensive threat," i don't get why, he still hasn't shown much promise on his own...Koltsov looks better.


I think your way off base on this one.
In my opinion Alexsey has been a top 3 player on the ice in every game so far this season. And in a few games he's been the best.

Ozy_Flame
11-01-2003, 09:52 AM
Actually, just going back to Dome for a second, he had a monsterous pre-season, with 9 points in 5 games, 5 of those points were goals.

That's some pretty good numbers for a team like Calgary; I wouldn't be surprised to see him back here in Calgary as soon as a right winger goes down with an injury.

If I can recall right, I think he made a concerted effort to improve his play this summer. He must have done something right.

Der Schweinehund
11-01-2003, 12:58 PM
I think your way off base on this one.
In my opinion Alexsey has been a top 3 player on the ice in every game so far this season. And in a few games he's been the best.

What really strikes me about Aleksey this year is the 'completeness' of his game. He is taking and giving the body, being defensively responsible, he stops and starts his skating (as opposed to lazy circling) - he has been great!

DJ Spinoza
11-01-2003, 01:03 PM
^ Yep, I agree 100%.

The goals and points will come. Morozov has been playing extremely well in all facets of the game. He was one of the only ones creating chances on the Power Play today.

And on the power play, I will get slammed for this, but I think it might be time Mario is taken off the first unit. I think the PP works a little better when he's not out there.

Plus, I'd like to see if we have a power play QB for the future. Maybe Morozov can do just that.

Straka and Lemieux can be on the second PP unit which means opposing teams might have a little trouble deciding who to play against our top PP unit.

The PP isn't working now, I say it's time for a change. That'd be a big one. I say work from down low, try to create traffic, and shoot the puck.

Robert Paulson*
11-01-2003, 01:11 PM
^ Yep, I agree 100%.

The goals and points will come. Morozov has been playing extremely well in all facets of the game. He was one of the only ones creating chances on the Power Play today.

And on the power play, I will get slammed for this, but I think it might be time Mario is taken off the first unit. I think the PP works a little better when he's not out there.

Plus, I'd like to see if we have a power play QB for the future. Maybe Morozov can do just that.

Straka and Lemieux can be on the second PP unit which means opposing teams might have a little trouble deciding who to play against our top PP unit.

The PP isn't working now, I say it's time for a change. That'd be a big one. I say work from down low, try to create traffic, and shoot the puck.

I can't say I completely agree with everything you say here, but you may have something. It seems with Mario out there they want too pass to much or want to make sure Mario gets it. I'd still like to see Mario on the 1st unit, but to change the gameplan to pass-pass-shoot instead of pass-pass-pass-pass.. out of the zone.

kutdacheez
11-01-2003, 01:26 PM
(Naslund)
Well let's see when he was dealt, that year he told CP he was unhappy in Pittsburgh, it was well known he was, i don't know where you were during that time, but i am sure most of the other pens fans know that.

If you don't remember him saying it, just look at his face in a pens jersey most nights, he just wasn't happy.
Here's what I recall. The trade was made and the rumor's were that Mario Lemieux was the one that thought he played too soft. However, keep it noted that that was just a rumor. Those type of things happen and many times there is zero basis for it. Sort of like someone recalling him tell Patrick that he didn't like it here or those that can watch a game and see it in their face! Where do you get this stuff from?


(Andrew Ference)
I wasn't saying dump Josef, i said Andrew had 2 bad years cuz of injuries and he gets shipped, Josef has 3 bad years due to injuries and we keep him...didn't make sense to me. About his locker room presence, at that time it wasn't all that great to begin with, not with a team like the Penguins where the owner plays with you and every one is chicken **** to say anything.
Here, I'll give it to you then . . . if you take away Andy Ference's speed there is nothing left. He also went on talk shows here at took some real major shots at players. Particurally on the Mark Madden Radio show. Melichar on the other hand is a gutzy player who cringes everytime he throw a czech. Ference is where is belongs, in Calgary.

(Dome)
I am positive the Penguin's said that they didn't deal with the Dome situation professionally, but they didn't want to keep him around because he wasn't developing the way they hoped he would, so they figured with what happened with his parents and his poor development in Pittsburgh they should just get rid of him, a change of scenery.
Not only did his agent screw over him but the Penguins really never had a development team . . . even with WB/S there were questions about how much developing was really going on. Doesn't matter however, because the player has got to rise above that. Just like everyone else that has a job has personal things that happen to them too. Dome has reported to camp plump" every year he was here.

I don't just throw stuff out there, ...i don't know if they gave him the support or not, but the pens didn't respond to it so i have to believe Dome on that one.
Well, Scarface, if you really don't throw stuff out there and you really don't know if they gave him any support or not . . . what are you really saying? It might be clearer if you stated what you think that support should have been and what the Penguins didn't do . . . don't you think?

Or, just say nothing at all (about it). That could work.

Evilo
11-01-2003, 01:48 PM
Actually, just going back to Dome for a second, he had a monsterous pre-season, with 9 points in 5 games, 5 of those points were goals.

That's some pretty good numbers for a team like Calgary; I wouldn't be surprised to see him back here in Calgary as soon as a right winger goes down with an injury.

If I can recall right, I think he made a concerted effort to improve his play this summer. He must have done something right.
I wish him the best. Calgary did pretty well signing him. Low risk, high potential reward.

GoPenguins
11-01-2003, 06:09 PM
I wish him the best. Calgary did pretty well signing him. Low risk, high potential reward.

The Ference deal was pretty good for both teams. We end up with a 3rd round pick, which should land us someone promising, and Calgary get a young servieable defenseman. As mentioned before, Ference showed promise but also showed lapses which didnt help him beat out players such as Moran, Johnsson, Laukkenen and Bergevin last year.

All in all, we got a decent return for a 7th round pick and Calgary got a fiesty competitor.

Evilo
11-02-2003, 12:27 AM
The Ference deal was pretty good for both teams. We end up with a 3rd round pick, which should land us someone promising, and Calgary get a young servieable defenseman. As mentioned before, Ference showed promise but also showed lapses which didnt help him beat out players such as Moran, Johnsson, Laukkenen and Bergevin last year.

All in all, we got a decent return for a 7th round pick and Calgary got a fiesty competitor.
I was talking about Dome... ;)

GoPenguins
11-02-2003, 07:57 AM
I was talking about Dome... ;)


Oops..sorry about that. Well...my comments about Ference are still what I feel. Regards Dome, I agree with your comments :)

look out for orpik
11-02-2003, 09:42 AM
i want to say something, but i promised the Pens board i wouldnt get on Morozov's case anymore...


well as always i agree with raider about pretty much everything that he says about morozov. i know im gonna get crucified for saying this but of his 3 goals, 2 have been on the PP (which btw anyone could have put in) and 1 was at even strength. now everyone says that the 2nd line of him fata and malone is clicking. i agree with that, but i agree with the fact that malone and fata are clicking. morozov's one goal at ES was from malone and i think fata, im not too sure i dont rem (that is a fact). other than that he has done pretty much nothing while fata and malone are feeding off eachother and have really good chemistry. now i know everyone will get on my back because everyone wants morozov to succeed. but everyone ignores his out of positioning, inaccurate passes (not all of them but a good amount), his lack of physical play (yeah he ran into that guy in the boston game, but he even mario lemieux does that) and even his lack of knowledge of when to and when not to make a specific play. sure, he has made a few, A FEW, good plays but for the most part has done nothing to claim himself as a top six forward int he league. IMO hes just not a good hockey player. if that 2nd line had someone good on the other side with some talent, maybe even surovy, thatd be a heck of a line. let the bashing begin :joker:

Evilo
11-02-2003, 12:27 PM
THAT is exactly what I hate.
When somebody wants to be negative, you can always find reason.
But boy, saying h pots two PP goals but anyone could have???

THEN WHY IS OUR PP DYSMAL ?
WHY IS IT HIM WHO SCORED THE GOALS ?

look out for orpik
11-02-2003, 12:54 PM
hey buddy im not being negative, im voicing my opinion. our PP needs someone big infront of the net like abid or malone or if they really need soneone, put in mckenna, that worked last year. ive seen them put malone and abid infront and its worked well. i mean look at colorados PP. btw i am in no way trying to compare out PP to theres, im just stating what types of players are out there. and also im not being negative, i want this team to do well and do everything the critics say they wont do. im not too sure whos on their PP, but one would assume (i could be wrong) you have karyia, seleanne, sakic, forsberg and BLAKE. you can have all the skill guys you want out there but as long as you have someone big with an offensive upside who will be infront of the net causing havoc, then your PP should do better. and also guys like straka and lemieux and even tarnstrom want to stick handle around everyone going into the zone on the PP and you cant do that against teams now. dumping it in and going in and getting it and cycling and getting it to the front of the net works almost all the time. i give koltsov alot of credit, he goes in there and gets his nose dirty and doesnt care bout takin a hit to make the play.
morozov scored the goals cuz he was infront of the net, hence being in front of the net will score you goals, not all of them but a good amount of the time. im just saying the ones he scored, anyone could have because those two were into empty nets practically. i have yet to see him taking the cross checks and abuse from some 6'4 defenseman infront of the net and scoring a goal. thats why you need a powerforward in there. i would rather see a berehowsky, tarnstrom, lemieux, malone or abid, straka or koltsov as a PP.

Robert Paulson*
11-02-2003, 02:35 PM
(which btw anyone could have put in)

DON'T say that, Holzinger would have surely missed. :joker:

kutdacheez
11-02-2003, 02:36 PM
im just saying the ones he scored, anyone could have because those two were into empty nets practically.
Let's take you for instance . . . If I were you I'd quit my day job. :D
Or, were you referring to the anyone being any NHL hockey player like a LaCouture, Manderville, Donovan or a W. Primeau? :D :D

look out for orpik
11-02-2003, 03:04 PM
i think you jokesters better quit your day jobs :D

Evilo
11-02-2003, 08:32 PM
hey buddy im not being negative, im voicing my opinion. our PP needs someone big infront of the net like abid or malone or if they really need soneone, put in mckenna, that worked last year. ive seen them put malone and abid infront and its worked well. i mean look at colorados PP. btw i am in no way trying to compare out PP to theres, im just stating what types of players are out there. and also im not being negative, i want this team to do well and do everything the critics say they wont do. im not too sure whos on their PP, but one would assume (i could be wrong) you have karyia, seleanne, sakic, forsberg and BLAKE. you can have all the skill guys you want out there but as long as you have someone big with an offensive upside who will be infront of the net causing havoc, then your PP should do better. and also guys like straka and lemieux and even tarnstrom want to stick handle around everyone going into the zone on the PP and you cant do that against teams now. dumping it in and going in and getting it and cycling and getting it to the front of the net works almost all the time. i give koltsov alot of credit, he goes in there and gets his nose dirty and doesnt care bout takin a hit to make the play.
morozov scored the goals cuz he was infront of the net, hence being in front of the net will score you goals, not all of them but a good amount of the time. im just saying the ones he scored, anyone could have because those two were into empty nets practically. i have yet to see him taking the cross checks and abuse from some 6'4 defenseman infront of the net and scoring a goal. thats why you need a powerforward in there. i would rather see a berehowsky, tarnstrom, lemieux, malone or abid, straka or koltsov as a PP.
Why ?
How many PP goals do we have ?
How many Morozov has scored ?
That's right, we might as well keep one of our best PP producer around...

look out for orpik
11-02-2003, 09:52 PM
Why ?
How many PP goals do we have ?
How many Morozov has scored ?
That's right, we might as well keep one of our best PP producer around...


i think we have about 6 goals. one of our best producers? he has two goals not 5 (get back to me in about 10 games and we'll see where he is). abid also has a PP goal, you wouldnt keep him out there on the first unit? if you wouldnt, why?

Evilo
11-03-2003, 10:24 AM
The guys that produce the most play. Simple. Morozov has ONE THIRD of our PP goals.
Why would you scratch him from the PP ??? Isn't it already bad enough ?

Team_Spirit
11-03-2003, 10:20 PM
Did Kraft ever played on the wings ? If yes did you have a link ?

Koltsov71
11-04-2003, 07:21 AM
Kraft was drafted by pittsburgh and has only played for the Pittsburgh Penguins in the NHL, in the AHL it has been the WBS Penguins, our affiliate.

Perhaps he meant wings as in left wing or right wing? Wings wasn't capitalized in his question. Even still, I don't understand the question he asked.

Parrish
05-24-2004, 05:37 PM
I would like to ask you all how you feel aboutKraft now.Hes obviosly improved alot, but he could end up taking the turn back.I wonder if CP is still consirdering a tradenow that his value has gone up.I personally like Kraft, but I think another team may be best for him.

Jacob
05-24-2004, 05:39 PM
Right now, Kraft is one of our top two centerman and may even be our #1 guy next season.

I wouldn't trade him until other guys play Kraft out of a job.

Lionel Hutz
05-24-2004, 05:42 PM
Right now, Kraft is one of our top two centerman and may even be our #1 guy next season.

I wouldn't trade him until other guys play Kraft out of a job.

agreed

AEKaki
05-24-2004, 05:57 PM
We shouldnt trade Kraft.
He is good and is improving.

PensFan68
05-24-2004, 06:00 PM
Amazing what a guy will show you when he gets a true chance. Not 3rd line duty or being scratched every other game, but getting a good steady shift on the first 2 lines.

I'm thrilled he finally came around. If he could just bulk up a little bit, it could add alot more to his game. Hopefully, he can continue to play as well as he did after the midseason this year.

look out for orpik
05-24-2004, 10:31 PM
well ifhe adds the bulk, he needs to use it. the guys 6'4 200 something lbs. he needs to use it and def. needs to work on his skating.

Jacob
05-25-2004, 03:03 AM
Can't do both.

"Bulk" is overrated. It's more about skating balance than pure mass. Kraft is something like 210, maybe 215 lbs., that's plenty of muscle.

I'd rather see him train his core. Zdeno Chara says that core training is what made him a much better skater.

Mr Jiggyfly
05-25-2004, 04:36 AM
well ifhe adds the bulk, he needs to use it. the guys 6'4 200 something lbs. he needs to use it and def. needs to work on his skating.

His skating won't really ever get much better than it is now.

Kraft is a heavy skater. Ie he brings all his weight down on his edges and doesn't shift his weight quickly enough.

I think his skating is adequate for the NHL. His problem is when he has the puck, he tends to slow down and stop moving his feet.

Kraft really needs to work on his first three steps with the puck on his stick. He kicks out really slow, and it takes him forever to get going.

As soon as Kraft gets up on a defender, he stops moving his feet, and starts to overhandle the puck. He then toe drags it, and shoots it. Even if he is 25 feet from the goal.

I lost count how many times he has done that since he joined the Penguins.

If he would just put the puck on his outside shoulder and bull his way to the net, he would be a much different player.

I just don't know if he will ever be that type of player though.

Kraft can't be the guy that carries the puck. He has to have linemates that can find him coming late, or get shots on the net, and let him dig for rebounds.

This is where he gets most of his goals. He isn't a dazzling player that is going to beat you 1-1 and school the goalie. Just will never happen.

I really think Ben Eaves is the kind of player that can help Kraft score 30 goals.

I am hoping Eaves can do well like Malone, and make the team out of camp.

No one on the Pens roster can make plays like him. His vision and passing skills are unreal.

HockeyMaster
05-25-2004, 08:03 PM
I'd rather see him train his core. Zdeno Chara says that core training is what made him a much better skater.

What's core training?

HockeyMaster
05-25-2004, 08:05 PM
Kraft can't be the guy that carries the puck. He has to have linemates that can find him coming late, or get shots on the net, and let him dig for rebounds.

This is one of the reasons I don't like him at center.

Zoo
05-25-2004, 11:15 PM
Right now, Kraft is one of our top two centerman and may even be our #1 guy next season.

I wouldn't trade him until other guys play Kraft out of a job.

Agreed :amazed:

stardog
05-27-2004, 02:49 AM
Right now, Kraft is one of our top two centerman and may even be our #1 guy next season.

I wouldn't trade him until other guys play Kraft out of a job.

Krafty kinda forced you to change your tune on him this season there didnt he! ;)

PensFan27
05-27-2004, 05:23 PM
Am I like the only one who still thinks Kraft is really good?
He missed some games last year and almost hit 20 goals which for a Penguin is very good.

Zoo
05-27-2004, 07:55 PM
No your not the only one. :)

craig1
05-27-2004, 11:39 PM
Am I like the only one who still thinks Kraft is really good?
He missed some games last year and almost hit 20 goals which for a Penguin is very good.


No....Look at when this thread was started....It's older than the Pyramids at Giza. That's why I'm against bringing back old threads....it's confusing to people.

Parrish
05-27-2004, 11:52 PM
No....Look at when this thread was started....It's older than the Pyramids at Giza. That's why I'm against bringing back old threads....it's confusing to people.

Yes, I'm sure thats the reason behind any confusion on these boards. :shakehead

craig1
05-28-2004, 01:37 AM
Yes, I'm sure thats the reason behind any confusion on these boards. :shakehead


People read threads like they are new when they pop out of the blue. Unless you have been a long-term regular, or actually look at the date, you wouldn't know it was old news.


I never stated that it was the reason for all confusion......but it is adding chaos to what was the most orderly and objective Pens board around. We have been very protective and diligent with monitoring it in hopes of keeping it that way.


All I/We are asking is that you not bring back dead threads......start a new one, and if you are making a point about an old thread, put a link to it in the new thread. That way, we all know.

stardog
05-28-2004, 05:23 AM
Am I like the only one who still thinks Kraft is really good?
He missed some games last year and almost hit 20 goals which for a Penguin is very good.
No. Check back on some of our posts. I know that speaking for myself and Evilo, what Kraft did this year didnt surprise either of us in the slightest.
I fully expect him to become a first line center who will be a 65-75 point guy in this league. He could score 30 goals in today's defensive NHL, and if there is a dramatic change in the league's style, I could see him potting 40.

Of course I think certain posters are higher on certain players than others. And for myself, Kraft is that guy. I am more high on him than the norm on this board but I always have been.

It is interesting to see how peoples opinions changed on him from a year ago but I can't say that I blame them entirely. I for one, never doubted him in the slightest.
I always knew he could, and would be a strong player in this league. But that could be partialy blind optimism as he is one of my 3 favorite Pens.

This isn't to brag or to say I was clairvoyant or anything. Because a year from now there are going to be guys who are going to come back and say the same thing of Beechie, while I dont believe in him ever being a top 2 line center.
There are guys who have defended Beech and will have the right to say "I told you so" once his game comes to fruition (if it des, I might add ;) ).

The point is that all of us are higher on some guys and not so high on others. Kraft just happened to be my horse in this case and it feels good to see that people are starting to give him the respect that i thought he would one day deserve.
And while all of us may not be as high on some as others, we ALL, of course, hope that each prospect exceeds expectations.


Speaking of Kraft, didn't the Yotes ask for him when we enquired about the possibility of getting Keith Tkachuk for our playoff run a few years back?
I remember there was a huge deal and Kraft was involved a few years ago, but the Pens wouldn't give him up.

Parrish
05-28-2004, 09:19 AM
People read threads like they are new when they pop out of the blue. Unless you have been a long-term regular, or actually look at the date, you wouldn't know it was old news.


I never stated that it was the reason for all confusion......but it is adding chaos to what was the most orderly and objective Pens board around. We have been very protective and diligent with monitoring it in hopes of keeping it that way.


All I/We are asking is that you not bring back dead threads......start a new one, and if you are making a point about an old thread, put a link to it in the new thread. That way, we all know.

How old are you?I'm guessing 89.

Parrish
05-28-2004, 09:20 AM
It is interesting to see how peoples opinions changed on him from a year ago but I can't say that I blame them entirely. I for one, never doubted him in the slightest.
I always knew he could, and would be a strong player in this league. But that could be partialy blind optimism as he is one of my 3 favorite Pens.


Bingo!!!!!!!!!

Evilo
05-28-2004, 09:40 AM
No. Check back on some of our posts. I know that speaking for myself and Evilo, what Kraft did this year didnt surprise either of us in the slightest.
I fully expect him to become a first line center who will be a 65-75 point guy in this league. He could score 30 goals in today's defensive NHL, and if there is a dramatic change in the league's style, I could see him potting 40.

Of course I think certain posters are higher on certain players than others. And for myself, Kraft is that guy. I am more high on him than the norm on this board but I always have been.

It is interesting to see how peoples opinions changed on him from a year ago but I can't say that I blame them entirely. I for one, never doubted him in the slightest.
I always knew he could, and would be a strong player in this league. But that could be partialy blind optimism as he is one of my 3 favorite Pens.

This isn't to brag or to say I was clairvoyant or anything. Because a year from now there are going to be guys who are going to come back and say the same thing of Beechie, while I dont believe in him ever being a top 2 line center.
There are guys who have defended Beech and will have the right to say "I told you so" once his game comes to fruition (if it des, I might add ;) ).

The point is that all of us are higher on some guys and not so high on others. Kraft just happened to be my horse in this case and it feels good to see that people are starting to give him the respect that i thought he would one day deserve.
And while all of us may not be as high on some as others, we ALL, of course, hope that each prospect exceeds expectations.


Speaking of Kraft, didn't the Yotes ask for him when we enquired about the possibility of getting Keith Tkachuk for our playoff run a few years back?
I remember there was a huge deal and Kraft was involved a few years ago, but the Pens wouldn't give him up.
Well call me a blind optimistic, but I believed in Kraft, and I still believe in Beech just as I believed in Whitney ;)

Jeff Goldblum
05-28-2004, 12:44 PM
It is interesting to see how peoples opinions changed on him from a year ago but I can't say that I blame them entirely.


I think it'd be easier on everyone if you just started new threads about the same topics as old ones. That way, the thread is a bit more organized. And you don't have to go through old stuff to find new posts.

Til the End of Time
05-28-2004, 01:22 PM
I never heard anything about a Tkachuk trade for a playoff run, but I really didn't follow the pens when they were good.

Anyone have any details on that?

Lionel Hutz
05-28-2004, 01:28 PM
I never heard anything about a Tkachuk trade for a playoff run, but I really didn't follow the pens when they were good.

Anyone have any details on that?

the trade never happened and I don't recall the rumor, I assume he is referring to the 2001 deadline before the conference final playoff run.

Same deadline Tkachuk ended up going to St. Louis for Nagy, Handzus and a 1st round pick.

Alex Kovalev
05-28-2004, 02:43 PM
the trade never happened and I don't recall the rumor, I assume he is referring to the 2001 deadline before the conference final playoff run.

Same deadline Tkachuk ended up going to St. Louis for Nagy, Handzus and a 1st round pick.

pretty good trade now when you look back at it. Nagy and Handzus are great players.

Lionel Hutz
05-28-2004, 02:55 PM
pretty good trade now when you look back at it. Nagy and Handzus are great players.

Yes, except: handzus was traded for Boucher and a 3rd round pick which was used to draft someone I've know nothing about (Joe Callaghan? 2002).

The 1st rounder was used to pick Ben Eager, which I think was probably a pretty good pick.

Would look better for Pheonix had they gotten a better return for Handzus.

Evilo
05-28-2004, 04:05 PM
Tkachuk was rumored as a target for CP because Mario and Jagr were together for the last time.
CP thought about making a blockbuster to get Tkachuk in Pittsburgh and deal him again in the summer.
Pretty astute if you ask me.
But the asking price was too much, and we all know what happenned in the conference finals.
Would Tkachuk have made a difference?

Til the End of Time
05-28-2004, 04:57 PM
The pens probably wouldn't have gotten past the devils with Tkachuk, because that EAS line was amzing and no penguin could score except Rene Corbet.

But the pens had no power forwards up front, so maybe he coulda helped. It sure would have been interested. But in hindsight, it was probably better they didn't get him.

craig1
05-28-2004, 05:37 PM
How old are you?I'm guessing 89.


What the heck????

Why do you make personal attacks and take pot shots at me??? This is the #$%^ that is always continually talked about not doing on this board, yet you do it anyway......Why? Does it make you feel good? THERE IS NO PLACE FOR THAT HERE!

Personally, I don't give a ^&*'# !#@ about your comments towards me. I am too sure and confident of my own standing in life and in society to care......But it has no place on the boards. If you want to take a shot, PM me!

If you have not noticed, I am not the only one saying these things to you. Others are too, but for some reason, you make it seem like I am alone in my opinion. We are not asking you to not post, or not comment. We are asking you to change the way you reference old posts for the benefit of the boards. We have had a great system in place for a while that has been mostly self-monitored. All that is trying to be conveyed, is some advice to make sure this board runs smooth. THAT IS ALL!.....although you choose to attack me for it.


PS.....All you have to do to find out how old someone is is look at their profile.

tom_servo
05-28-2004, 05:43 PM
I never heard anything about a Tkachuk trade for a playoff run, but I really didn't follow the pens when they were good.

Anyone have any details on that?

Oh, I recall that rumor big time. The deal was something like Lang and Kasparaitis for Tkachuk. We fans were also under the impression that we could actually keep some players.

It was an ESPN-fed rumor, too, so we weren't alone in our delusion. Besides, Tkachuk probably would've been a huge bust here.

During the '01 season (or possibly right before), there was a Kovalev for Chris Simon rumor. Heh. I would've vomited. Lucky for us, we waited until we could acquire Rico Fata.

stardog
05-28-2004, 05:51 PM
Oh, I recall that rumor big time. The deal was something like Lang and Kasparaitis for Tkachuk. We fans were also under the impression that we could actually keep some players.

It was an ESPN-fed rumor, too, so we weren't alone in our delusion. Besides, Tkachuk probably would've been a huge bust here.

During the '01 season (or possibly right before), there was a Kovalev for Chris Simon rumor. Heh. I would've vomited.

I am pretty sure that the Yotes asked for Kraft and that is why the deal fell through actually. Although i cannot be totally certain (none of us were there after all) I am almost positive that is how it went down after the deadline was over.
They may have asked for Kaspar and Lang as well, but I recall reading in a few places that Kraft was the reason the Pens balked at the deal.

In hindsight I cant say I blame them either. KT's best days are long gone and Kraft's are coming up. While he will never be the dominant player that KT was in his prime, we would have only had KT for a playoff rental and Kraft is wayyyyy to much to give up for that.

Maybe he would have helped advance us further, but that is all speculative.

At any rate, I am glad the deal didn't go down and am happy we finally gave Kraft a legitimate shot. I think next year he is going to break out big time.

craig1
05-28-2004, 05:56 PM
I remember it as the Yotes asking Kraft and Kaspar for KT.

Pens countered with Lang and Kaspar.

HockeyMaster
05-28-2004, 08:21 PM
Of course I think certain posters are higher on certain players than others. And for myself, Kraft is that guy. I am more high on him than the norm on this board but I always have been.

This isn't to brag or to say I was clairvoyant or anything. Because a year from now there are going to be guys who are going to come back and say the same thing of Beechie, while I dont believe in him ever being a top 2 line center.
There are guys who have defended Beech and will have the right to say "I told you so" once his game comes to fruition (if it does, I might add ;) ).

My ears are tingling :allears:

But seriously, if you were referring to me, then I must not have been entirely clear on a couple of things when we had our earlier Beech/Kraft discussion. In fact, I'm now sure I wasn't. I really don't want to rehash everything, but maybe I should clarify my position just a bit.

First of all, if Beech turns out great, I would not gloat about it. It's not that I'm above gloating (lol), it's just that I don't think my view of Beech parallels what your view of Kraft was/is -- and so I would not really be in a position to gloat.

I'm not predicting greatness for Beech. I'm not even predicting that he'll be better than Kraft. I just want him to get the same kind of chance that Kraft got, because I think he deserves that much.

I did say at one point that I wouldn't mind Beech getting Kraft's spot on the second line. But to be honest I said this not so much because of what I think of Beech but more because of what I think of Kraft. Outside of possibly becoming a good faceoff man, I just don't see Kraft's skillset as particulary well-suited to the center position. Also, quite frankly, I am not crazy about his style of play. But these are my own opinions, and I don't mind in the slightest if others think differently.

Also, when I made that comment (it was prior to the discussion you and I had, btw), I said it in the context that I wouldn't mind seeing Kraft traded. I wouldn't want to make such a trade to "make room" for Beech, but simply because, as a fan, I would like to see more players that play my favorite style of play on the team -- and fewer who play the opposite style. I should point out though that I'm not for giving away players just because they are not my personal favorite. I of course wouldn't make such a trade unless fair value was gotten in return. The point is though, that I wanted that trade for "selfish fan" reasons, not because Beech > Kraft.

As for Beech - I obviously do like him, but if anyone thinks he is my favorite Penguin they would be mistaken. There are several players we have who I like better, as well as several players who play my preferred style better. For me though, Beech comes out ahead in these very subjective areas when compared to Kraft.

Anyway, maybe at some point we'll be able to talk about one of these two players without bringing up the other one as an ever-present measuring stick. Sometimes comparing their situations makes sense, but maybe not always. I understand your doing it here though. Before, I probably focused too much on the details of what I liked about Beech without putting it into perspective overall.



Speaking of Kraft, didn't the Yotes ask for him when we enquired about the possibility of getting Keith Tkachuk for our playoff run a few years back?
I remember there was a huge deal and Kraft was involved a few years ago, but the Pens wouldn't give him up.

It's already been said, but you can add me as one of the people that remembers this. We did not get Tkachuk primarily because we did not want to give up Kraft.