Clarke wants penalties for wandering goaltenders

Unthinkable
11-01-2003, 12:11 PM
http://www.nypost.com/sports/devils/42197.htm

CLARKE'S IDEA WOULD
HINDER MARTY

By MARK EVERSON

November 1, 2003 -- This idea might be Good for The Game. It would surely be bad for the Devils. Vezina Trophy winner Martin Brodeur would have to change his style dramatically if Flyer president/GM Bobby Clarke succeeds in his bid to improve post-lockout hockey.

Clarke told The Post he has asked NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and VP Colin Campbell to begin the process to prohibit netminders - virtually immune to bodychecks - from ranging behind their goal line or to the faceoff circles to play loose pucks. It's more than just a case of, "If you can't beat 'em, ban 'em."

Brodeur's puck-handling ability has played a major part in building his certain Hall of Fame credentials. As he faces the Avalanche this afternoon at the Meadowlands, he stands one shutout short of boyhood hero Patrick Roy, who retired from the Avs last summer with 66 career blankings.

Clarke wants offense returned to the NHL in the post-lockout world. He is asking the NHL to experiment by penalizing wandering goalies next season in the American Hockey League while the NHL is expected to be shut down.

"To get the game back to the way it was, we have to keep the goaltenders from coming out of the net to play the puck," Clarke said. "They're like third defensemen. You used to be able to dump the puck in and chase it. Not anymore. The goalie's got the puck and you can't touch him."
.
.
.

John Flyers Fan
11-01-2003, 02:34 PM
I don't think that goalies should be limited when coming out to play the puck, but they should be fair game.

If a goalie wants to play the puck, they he should be subject to the same rules as any other player.

It would forecheckers to get in and put pressure defenseman and cause turnovers, which could lead to offense.

Tao Jones
11-01-2003, 02:45 PM
Funny, it never seemed to bother him when Hextall did it. Brodeur actually studied Hextall's puck handling before he was even drafted. Interesting timing coming off the recent match-up. It was also the topic on Coatesey's Corner during the Flyers-Devs game. They actually kept track of how often Brodeur played the puck and the results with something like 29 handles resulting in 23 passes for breakouts, 2 clears, and 4 giveaways, or whatever through two periods. You know something's wrong when you start focusing on how to change rules to hamper a successful team in the guise of improving offense league wide, instead of focusing on how to improve your own inability to succeed. First, it's the 1-2-2 trap, which has been employed since they skated 5 a side. Now, there is talk of experimenting with playing 4 skaters for the entire 60 minutes of regulation and only letting defensemen skate backwards into their own zone. That will endear the NHLPA for the new CBA talks. Limiting the goaltenders with penalties for their puckhandling prowess to help the dump and chase(always more exciting than carrying the puck in on the rush), should be countered with making cycling illegal on the PP and full-body checking by goalies. LOL.

Three indicators of knowing you attained success. 1) Other teams model your style of play. 2) Other teams suggest rule changes to deter your style of play. 3) The number of Stanley Cup banners hanging from the rafters in your building that are less than a quarter-century, er... I mean decade old. :teach:

LaLaLaprise
11-01-2003, 02:51 PM
First off, Clarke is a moron.

Second, i think Goalies should be fair game. Let them play the puck, but also let them get hit cleanly. They are invicible out there, which makes no sense. If goalies are going to play the puck, make them have some sort of consequence.

4check22
11-01-2003, 03:22 PM
First off, Clarke is a moron.

Second, i think Goalies should be fair game. Let them play the puck, but also let them get hit cleanly. They are invicible out there, which makes no sense. If goalies are going to play the puck, make them have some sort of consequence.

Fully agree with you there. Goalies are protected by the rules and the officials who enforce the rules. I say that if the tender is another defenseman out there, let him take a shot from a forechecking forward like a defenseman. That seems fair to me. What are you going to do, hurt the goalie with all that padding? Think again.

dedalus
11-01-2003, 03:43 PM
Clarke told The Post he has asked NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and VP Colin Campbell to begin the process that would grant an extra three power play opportunities to any team wearing orange in its jersey.

"Because every player wears a helmet now, there's no personality to the game. To get the game back to the way it was, we have to make exciting fashion statements," Clarke said. "Orange is exciting; it's very Halloweeny; and it's full of fresh Florida citrus goodness!"

Clarke went on to excoriate the league's tolerance of certain uniform colors: "We have to keep any team from wearing red and black, which have become trite in fashion terms, from having success."

Unthinkable
11-01-2003, 03:47 PM
Clarke told The Post he has asked NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and VP Colin Campbell to begin the process that would grant an extra three power play opportunities to any team wearing orange in its jersey.

"Because every player wears a helmet now, there's no personality to the game. To get the game back to the way it was, we have to make exciting fashion statements," Clarke said. "Orange is exciting; it's very Halloweeny; and it's full of fresh Florida citrus goodness!"

Clarke went on to excoriate the league's tolerance of certain uniform colors: "We have to keep any team from wearing red and black, which have become trite in fashion terms, from having success."

:joker: :lol:

Unthinkable
11-01-2003, 03:48 PM
Funny, it never seemed to bother him when Hextall did it. Brodeur actually studied Hextall's puck handling before he was even drafted. Interesting timing coming off the recent match-up. It was also the topic on Coatesey's Corner during the Flyers-Devs game. They actually kept track of how often Brodeur played the puck and the results with something like 29 handles resulting in 23 passes for breakouts, 2 clears, and 4 giveaways, or whatever through two periods. You know something's wrong when you start focusing on how to change rules to hamper a successful team in the guise of improving offense league wide, instead of focusing on how to improve your own inability to succeed. First, it's the 1-2-2 trap, which has been employed since they skated 5 a side. Now, there is talk of experimenting with playing 4 skaters for the entire 60 minutes of regulation and only letting defensemen skate backwards into their own zone. That will endear the NHLPA for the new CBA talks. Limiting the goaltenders with penalties for their puckhandling prowess to help the dump and chase(always more exciting than carrying the puck in on the rush), should be countered with making cycling illegal on the PP and full-body checking by goalies. LOL.

Three indicators of knowing you attained success. 1) Other teams model your style of play. 2) Other teams suggest rule changes to deter your style of play. 3) The number of Stanley Cup banners hanging from the rafters in your building that are less than a quarter-century, er... I mean decade old. :teach:


That is truly a beautiful post. Everything above rings true to a crazy degree. The timing of this article is horrendous coming after that close fought win the other night by the Devils. You kind of get the sense that Clarke and Hitchcock are honestly at a loss to explain how they lose to us each and every time with all that offense stockpiled upfront. Seems Clarke would rather play the what if game right now to get a leg up on his competition. :bow:

John Flyers Fan
11-01-2003, 04:02 PM
That is truly a beautiful post. Everything above rings true to a crazy degree. The timing of this article is horrendous coming after that close fought win the other night by the Devils. You kind of get the sense that Clarke and Hitchcock are honestly at a loss to explain how they lose to us each and every time with all that offense stockpiled upfront. Seems Clarke would rather play the what if game right now to get a leg up on his competition. :bow:

The timing of teh srticle was obviously done on purpose by the writer. It wasn't like Clarke brought up these suggestions to teh league after the team lost on Thursday night.

The writer held the story until after the Flyers & Devils played.

Unthinkable
11-01-2003, 04:44 PM
I don't think that goalies should be limited when coming out to play the puck, but they should be fair game.

If a goalie wants to play the puck, they he should be subject to the same rules as any other player.

It would forecheckers to get in and put pressure defenseman and cause turnovers, which could lead to offense.

I like watching Patrick Lalime play a lot, but man does it kill me when I see him reacting like he's been shot by an assault rifle anytime an opposing team bumps into him when he's out of his crease. His act in the playoffs last year was brutal.

Vlad The Impaler
11-02-2003, 01:24 AM
Second, i think Goalies should be fair game. Let them play the puck, but also let them get hit cleanly. They are invicible out there, which makes no sense. If goalies are going to play the puck, make them have some sort of consequence.

Agreed 100%. Goalies should get hit like no tomorrow like anybody else if they want to wonder around.

I love to see them handle the puck, however. I say it should stay. But no whining if you are hit. It makes sense and has actually little to do with Brodeur. These decisions will have a league-wide impact, possibly for decades.

Brodeur has only a few years left to play. And he isn't the only goalie with solid puckhandling abilities. In fact, there are more and more of them. Turco is just as impressive, IMO. Lots of others are learning fast.

To see this as a desperate attempt to couter "the mighty Devils" is ridiculous and daydreaming. The Devils aren't a dominating team like the Habs or Oilers of past decades who were scary dynasties.

Nobody is trembling here. Nobody is going to change the rules because of the way they are performing.

meehan
11-02-2003, 01:55 AM
The Devils aren't a dominating team like the Habs or Oilers of past decades who were scary dynasties.


Devils in six!












































Just Kidding

meehan
11-02-2003, 02:14 AM
Agreed 100%. Goalies should get hit like no tomorrow like anybody else if they want to wonder around.

I love to see them handle the puck, however. I say it should stay. But no whining if you are hit. It makes sense and has actually little to do with Brodeur. These decisions will have a league-wide impact, possibly for decades.

Brodeur has only a few years left to play. And he isn't the only goalie with solid puckhandling abilities. In fact, there are more and more of them. Turco is just as impressive, IMO. Lots of others are learning fast.

To see this as a desperate attempt to couter "the mighty Devils" is ridiculous and daydreaming. The Devils aren't a dominating team like the Habs or Oilers of past decades who were scary dynasties.

Nobody is trembling here. Nobody is going to change the rules because of the way they are performing.

Here is the problem I have with the popular consensus that goalies should be "fair game". Your goalie is like your quarterback in the NFL; there aren't many of them out there, especially good ones, so the league should protect them. A goalies play in the playoffs is intrical to a teams success. Also, many times goalies emerge out of nowhere to become popular "star" players in the league(like Giguere last year and Theodore the year before). The league can't afford star players to get injured as that would hurt ratings. In essense goalies are more "special" then skaters as they play the whole game and fans identify with the team though them more easily then through skaters. Thus, I have no problem with the league protecting goalies especially since puckhandling ability accelerates the transition game which in turn creates offense.

Guttersnipe
11-02-2003, 02:45 AM
What constitutes "wandering" around? A goalie with a foot out of the crease or just both feet?

It's ridiculous, goalies can't take a shift or two off after getting their bell rung. Goalies get banged up as it is already.

In the finals, the Ducks and their home crowd weren't to happy when Stevens checked Kariya into unconsciousness. But if Stevens laid an open ice hit on Giguere and he crumpled to the ice, there would have been a riot, even if "wandering" goalies were "fair game".

You want make goalies pay for "wandering", score a goal. You can't have players gunning for goalies, it's ludicrous. :shakehead

Unthinkable
11-02-2003, 09:17 AM
Brodeur has only a few years left to play. And he isn't the only goalie with solid puckhandling abilities. In fact, there are more and more of them. Turco is just as impressive, IMO. Lots of others are learning fast.


A few years left to play? Which league are you watching Vlad? A few generally constitutes three or four at most. I don't see Brodeur hanging up the skates in 3 or 4 more years even with a one year lockout possibly considered. Its pretty common knowledge there are plenty of solid goaltenders in the NHL with great stickhandling skills like Turco and Dipietro. Why should their athletic talents be completely taken away from them with yet another ridiculous rule change to artificially pump more scoring into games these days? We don't need more changes to this game. Enough already.


To see this as a desperate attempt to couter "the mighty Devils" is ridiculous and daydreaming. The Devils aren't a dominating team like the Habs or Oilers of past decades who were scary dynasties.

Nobody is trembling here. Nobody is going to change the rules because of the way they are performing.

Is this meant for myself or at Mark Everson? I didn't say Hitchcock and Clarke were trembling in fear here. What I said is that they are likely at a loss to explain how a team with its present payroll that should regularly score 5-6 goals a night like the Isles, Senators, and Canucks with the talented core they possess continues to still struggle pretty routinely in winning games against the Devils (and in the playoffs when Cechmanek took the full brunt of the blame for his team not advancing two years in a row). Big difference there. On paper the talent difference is huge between the Devils and the Flyers.

Somehow I don't think you'd call the Devils a dynasty even if they did win it again this season. Thats my opinion of things.

Vlad The Impaler
11-02-2003, 06:19 PM
A few years left to play? Which league are you watching Vlad? A few generally constitutes three or four at most.

When we're talking about a guy's career, it is, yes. When we're talking about *league changes*, stuff that impacts for decades, "a few" constitutes whatever Brodeur has left in the tank. 3, 6, 9 years, it doesn't change a thing. (for the record, I'd say he has 4-5 great years left but it could just as well be 10 for all I know)

Any rule change risks being there decades after Brodeur will be gone. It is very important that the league looks into those matters for the good of the league and not to counter a single team, which would be very shortsighted.

Vlad The Impaler
11-02-2003, 06:33 PM
Its pretty common knowledge there are plenty of solid goaltenders in the NHL with great stickhandling skills like Turco and Dipietro. Why should their athletic talents be completely taken away from them with yet another ridiculous rule change to artificially pump more scoring into games these days?

I agree with you in a way. I generally dislike artificial changes. For instance, I think most changes that have been considered by observers to counter the trap are absolutely pathetic. I love the fact that coaches can elaborate great strategies and players work as a unit to achieve a goal. Plus I think tight games can be a lot of fun to watch!

However, sometimes, artificial (rules) changes are needed when a situation changes league-wide. Goalies used to be free of any contact because they didn't wonder around all that much at the time.

But then some started acting like third defenseman, which was smart. And that act has been perfected over the years to reach a scary level of effectiveness. The bottom line is they are out of the crease often. Some of them just skate slowly even thought forecheckers are right behind them. THAT is not hockey to me. I find the current rules somewhat "artificial". It just doesn't sit right with me but I'm sure some disagree.

I hate the idea of Clarke to BAN goalies from wondering. That would be what I call artificial. I want them to be able to use those athletic abilities but I want them accountable. They gotta be ready to pay the price.

Sergei Zinovjev has wonderful athletic abilities in Boston. He's swift, smart, agile and creative. He holds on to the puck and maybe that worked for him in Russia. But so far, he's getting a "warm" welcome and the target of a couple of good hits because when you have puck possession in this league, you're supposed to be aware that you can be hit.

We could change the rules to allow players like Zino to showcase a lot of fancy hockey. he has a lot of great moves. But we're not going to do that because good pressure is part of the game. The same should happen with goalies if we allow them to be hit. They will eventually adjust. They will still be able to get out of the crease and make great passes and create rushes, etc. They just will be treated like every other player in this league. If 5 foot 9, 170 pounds forwards like P-M Bouchard can take it, so should DiPietro, Marty and Turco.

We don't need more changes to this game. Enough already.

I respect that opinion. I don't think there is a right answer, only preferences. I love to see goalies go out and take risks. I just want them to be pressured when they do so. I'm sure that would severely restrict them or force them to rush their passes but that would be exciting IMO.

I don't want too many rules changes though. We're all fans and I guess all have our preferences on what should be done. For instance anytime I hear that we should take out the red line I want to puke :p

King of Stankonia
11-03-2003, 04:02 PM
Me Bob Clarke. Me think okay for big forward hit goalie. Goalie stupid. That why me not have good one for 10 years. Big good. Hurt other people. Make win.

:teach:

Unthinkable
11-03-2003, 04:35 PM
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/131-11022003-189437.html

No simple solutions to continued scoring drought
phillyBurbs.com

TORONTO - Admit it. Goals in hockey get you out of your seat if you're watching in person or keep your hands from the remote when you're catching the game on TV.

But each year scoring continues to tumble. Better defense, sounder players, more skilled goaltenders are just some of the reasons why goals are on the endangered species list in the NHL.

Everyone, including some of the higher-ups in the league offices, has his own solutions: Get rid of the red line, increase the size of the nets, reduce the size of goalie equipment (already done) and make minor penalties run their full length regardless of how many goals are scored.

Flyers general manager Bob Clarke came up with a really radical proposal recently: Don't allow the goaltender to handle the puck anywhere but in the crease.

The sport wouldn't mind this downward scoring trend if it didn't affect television ratings. But it does. ESPN's ratings in 2003 were off 30 percent from the previous year. ABC's fell 15 percent since 2000. The playoffs were even worse, 22 percent.
.
.
.

Unthinkable
11-03-2003, 04:40 PM
So we went to hockey's Minister of Defense, Ken Hitchcock, to find out if he thinks all of this checking has made for a dull game.

"I'm sick of hearing that," the Flyer coach said yesterday morning at the Air Canada Centre. "I know 15-year-old goalies now who are more schooled than those that came out of major junior. The kids are so structurally sound, they're just better.

"The coaching is better. I only knew one way to play in junior, and that was all-out, force the puck. Now there's positioning, angling and all the things that are taught. It's made the game sounder, more error-free."

Hitchcock contends that a great game does not have to be a high-scoring one to be entertaining.

For instance, take the Flyers-Devils game of Thursday night. That one ended 3-2. It featured plenty of scoring chances, physical play and the Devils managed to dig themselves out of a 2-0 hole. So, relative to your average fare, it was a borderline classic.

"The game now is so intense and so emotional, at times, it's great," Hitchcock said. "Everyone talks about more scoring, but to me, the games that are boring are the ones where there's no hitting, no front-of-the-net battles, no corner battles. No one-on-one, I'm-mad-at-you, in-your-face battles.

"That [lack of hitting] makes for boring games. You almost fall asleep. Nobody complained about the lack of scoring in the Flyers-Leafs series last year. Everybody thought it was a wonderful series, but there wasn't a lot of scoring."

Hitchcock has always been big on work before skill. He believes that a game that features emotion, intensity and physical play naturally evolves into a battle for that last crucial goal, as it did in New Jersey the other night.

Toronto captain Mats Sundin said as much yesterday when he claimed last year's playoff series came down to "which team cracked first."

"The problem is when you try to put the skill ahead of the work the workers control," Hitchcock said. "But if you have a skilled player who's prepared to fight for his space, it's impossible to control him."

"It can happen a lot," he added. "That's what makes New Jersey the champions. Their skill players work. Their players all look the same. That's what gives them the big advantage at the end of the night.

Good stuff in there. I get just as fired up over a great save, hit, or defensive play as I do over a highlight reel goal myself.

xander
11-04-2003, 09:50 PM
Good stuff in there. I get just as fired up over a great save, hit, or defensive play as I do over a highlight reel goal myself.

I get quite fired up over great saves, but those don't usually happen when the pucks in the nuetral zone.

holy roman empire
11-04-2003, 10:52 PM
so Clarke's big aspirations for the future of the game is MORE DUMP AND CHASE?!?! wow, what a visionary!!!

StilesBC
11-04-2003, 11:29 PM
I hate the idea of Clarke to BAN goalies from wondering.

Only Clarke would be stupid enough to try and control freedom of thought! ;)

This is, in my opinion, the most important part of the game that needs to be looked at to increase scoring. I respect the opinion that the league's goaltenders are their poster boys and they don't want to risk them to injury because of the ratings consequences, but the ratings losses they have suffered in the last 5 years due to decreased scoring is much more significant. Here is what I propose:

A secondary goal crease that extends from the endboards to a foot or two shy of the facoff circles. This would be the goaltender's safe zone. It would allow the goaltender to still go behind the net to stop the puck safely. It would also allow for the goaltender to stop pucks shot on net and move out and play the puck up to start the rush (what has become an important part of breakouts in the NHL lately). However, if the goaltender is out of this enlarged crease (wandering), then they would be considered fair game and contact would be judged the same it is for players. This solves the two biggest problems with making goaltenders completely fair game. If a goaltender, for example, goes behind the net to stop the puck, he will then be blindsided by a speeding forward on the forecheck one he turns back to his crease (dangerous for any player). And if he can't safely catch a poor shoot-in and turn it around to an offensive opportunity for his own team, we are contradicting ourselves in trying to add offense.

I agree with Clarke on the fact that the dump and chase game can be nearly neutrallized by a puck playing goaltender, thus taking away one of the best offensive strategies known. But I don't think that advantage should be completely taken away from a talented goaltender. If a team cannot dump and chase with enough pressure, then they don't deserve a chance to get the puck back. This just gives the offenses an opportunity to adapt their game.

When I think about the way the game was played 10 years ago, compared to the way it is played now, I notice two main things. First of all, every team is playing some variety of 'the trap' (some more than others, obviously), and the goaltenders are playing the puck much more than ever before. These two, although they may not look it, are closely intertwined. The trap is largely dependant on a puck playing goaltender. The best way to beat a neutral zone pressure defense is to dump the puck in and skate past the defenders and try to retrieve the puck. However, this obviously doesn't work if the goaltender cuts off the dump in. Result --- Less scoring.

By limiting the abilities of the goaltenders playing the puck, we will limit the effectiveness of the trap. This will open up the neutral zone allowing for the more skilled players to use their abilities to generate offense.

Problem Solved. :) :teach:

DRamones
11-05-2003, 01:39 AM
Of course, anthing to try and keep Marty down.

NJDevs430
11-05-2003, 04:58 AM
Clarke can go pound sand up his :moon:

John Flyers Fan
11-05-2003, 05:23 AM
so Clarke's big aspirations for the future of the game is MORE DUMP AND CHASE?!?! wow, what a visionary!!!

I don't agree with how Clarke wants to go about trying to fix the game, but I do like the idea of what he's trying to do.

The goal is to allow teams to get in hard in the forecheck, which would be very good for the game. It creates more hitting, turnovers, scoring chances, and if a good forecheck is allowed it also is an effective way to help combat the trap that 80% of the league currently plays.

IMO goalies should be free to roam, but they should also be subject to the same rules as the rest of the players on the ice. If they leave their crease to play the puck then they can be hit like anyone else.

M V Pete
11-05-2003, 05:50 AM
I just really hate to see what Giggy and Snow wear if they are free game....

JimEIV
11-05-2003, 07:46 AM
This is horse crap.

Why don't we force goalies to play naked and blind folded also.


The fact of the matter is there isn't a single goal tender in the NHL that can control a game with their puck handling ability like Brodeur can.
I watch probably 125+ plus NHL games a year and I have never seen any goaltender do what Brodeur can do with the puck. In the 80's Tom Barasso was good but nearlly as good as Brodeur.

So when you hear Clark and Sather talk about wandering goalies there is no coincidence that they in the east and both have big teams that can't dump they puck in on Brodeur and get a good cycle down low very often.

Of course this is soley aimed at Brodeur, because there is no one else who can do what he does. Turco, Osgood, maybe DiPietro? Yeah they handle the puck, but I've never seen any of them get a pass from their Left defencemen and then move the puck to the Right defencemen or a waiting winger as a set play. Were not talking about just clearing the puck here, most goals can fire the puck around the boards. Brodeur can make crisp breakout passes. And you can see the frustration on the faces of three 6'-3'', 225# players who can't get anything going down low cause as soon as they dump it, Brodeur has it up to waiting player.

I would want the rules changed if I were Sather or Clarke too.

Unthinkable
11-05-2003, 10:07 AM
I just really hate to see what Giggy and Snow wear if they are free game....

Stan Fischler noted in his weekly column that JS Giguere "is still fuming over the fact that the NHL never consulted goalies over the equipment changes. "Why didn't they ask the people who are most involved?" the Smythe Trophy-winner wonders. Answer: Because Colin Campbell is allergic to whiners like J-S. By the way, some analysts believe Giguere would be better off concentrating on his inability to effectively use his stick."

NJDevs430
11-05-2003, 11:24 AM
By the way, some analysts believe Giguere would be better off concentrating on his inability to effectively use his stick."
}:-)>