[Football]Anderlecht vs Ajax - Belgium vs Holland

Well since this debate was running out of it's allocated time and space in the Transfers thread: let's give it a temporary home:

Says the Ere Divisie expert.


How often do you honestly watch the Jupiler League then? I think you mistaking Gent for Anderlecht proves that's not too often


Good teams aren't formed in a year. Ajax has booked more CL succes each and every season they both played CL. Including this year.

2000-2001

_ Ajax is not qualified - not eligible
_ Feyenoord didn't qualify
_ Anderlecht WON the group with Man Utd - PSV - Kiev and finished third in the second group (due to bad luck - stupid free kick with a badly placed wall by our backup keeper) - Real - Leeds - Lazio


2001-2002:
_Ajax are not qualified - beaten by Celtic
_Anderlecht finish bottom in a group with Real - AS Roma and Lok Moscow

2002-2003:
_Ajax make it through two groups (Inter - Lyon - Rosenborg and Valencia - Arsenal - Roma) stages and end up loosing to Milan in the quarters (bad luck though!) - great CL campaign no doubt
_Bruges are third and eliminated in a group with Barcelona - Lok. Moscow and Galatasaray
_Anderlecht wasn't eligible that year

2003-2004:
Bruges eliminated Ajax from the CL in a direct confrontation on the last day (Ajax with Van de Vaart, Zlatan and Sneijder) - this is he year Ajax barely qualified against Graz.

Anderlecht also eliminated on goals difference (Lyon, Bayern, Celtic - UEFA finalists that season)

2004-2005:
_Anderlecht failed to qualify from the group stages in the CL (had very tough groups though - Bremen, Bayern and Valencia) - (we did trash Benfica in the third qualifying round though, the same Benfica that made it through to the quarters this year)
_Bruges make it through to the UEFA cup so did Ajax

2005-2006:
_Ajax qualify in a weak group (Arsenal - Thun - Prague) and are out in the round of 16
_Bruges reaches UEFA in a tough group (Bayern - Juventus - Vienna)
_Anderlecht really had little chance (Liverpool - Chelsea - Betis)


2002-2003: That's the only real superior year I can find in recent history.






Ajax is head and above a better team than any Belgian one. They always have and likely will always remain so due to its youth setup.

The youth setup is a big factor but come on, Ajax has had some horrible teams the last few years. You just as any other Ajax fan will know that.
Besides there have been points in history when Belgian football >>> Dutch football.

Right now Dutch football >> Belgian football obviously, but looking at these CL results it clearly isn't by that big a margin as you would like to indicate.
I will maintain my position that Ajax, Feyenoord and AZ are not necessarily better then Bruges or Anderlecht (and Standard although tey are so inconsistent it's tough counting them in)



Feyenoord is due to its individual superiority. A forward trio of Castelen, Kuijt and Kalou is reasoning enough.

I'd like to see these guys play against Anderlecht, surely Wilhelmsson, Frutos and co should have a chance against those defenders. Besides you just said you have to judge over a few years... i just checked the CL and the difference is pretty big...


Again it's tough judging Anderlecht right now due to the incredible players carroussel they're going through but I'm confident we'll get a good team on the pitch.

I'll say what I said in the other thread : for me, Anderlecht would be a top 3 finish in the dutch league, and possibly in the french league as well.

Does anybody have Holland vs. Belgium National Team Head to Head records for the last 5 years? What about Holland vs. Belgium Club team Head to Head records?

Does anybody have Holland vs. Belgium National Team Head to Head records for the last 5 years? What about Holland vs. Belgium Club team Head to Head records?

Wel the national teams are not involved here: Holland's U-21 squad would probably beat the current Belgian national side.

Seriously that's not even close.



As for head to head stats:
_Bruges played Ajax in the CL 03-04: both teams won 1 and lost 1

Bruges also played Utrecht in the UEFA cup 2004-2005: Brugge beat Utrecht but still failed to qualify in a very weak group actually.

_I can't remember any recent meetings between Anderlecht and a Dutch side, it has to be before the CL of 2000-2001 when Anderlecht beat PSV on both occasions.

As for other belgian-dutch encounters I can't remember any from the top of my head in the last 5 years or so.

1) Anderlecht has a much easier time qualifying for the CL than Ajax, who's competition at the top is much more strict.

2) By simply comparing their CL succes over the past 5 years determines the better team just how exactly?

I think we should compare the teams in the following categories:

- General history: Ajax by a landside. One of the most richest and succesful teams in history. Their name and fame is enough to attract some decent international players who otherwise wouldn't have thought about playing in the Ere Divisie.

- Last decade: Ajax, again by a landside. Their dominating days in the mid 90's are unmatched by Anderlecht. Won the UEFA Cup in 1992, the Champions League in 1995, runners up in 1996, reached another CL semi final in 1997, and reached the quarters on 3 other occasions.

- Recently (3 years till now): In terms of accompishments, both have been unimpressive, though Ajax did go on a pretty decent CL run. During those 3 years, Ajax delivered international stars such as van der Vaart, Ibrahimovic, Chivu and more recently; Maxwell and Trabelsi. Then there are tons, and I really mean tons of cast offs in other countries, including the Belgian League MVP of this year.

This year, Ajax advanced through the 2nd round of the CL, won the Johan Cruijff schaal, the Dutch Cup and again managed to qualify for the CL. All this while it still stands as one of the most dissapointing years in Ajax history.

Next year projection/future: With Davids, Stam, Perez and a full year of Huntelaar, Ajax is building themselves a nice squad once again. The rest consists out of young, potential stars such as Emanuelson, Maduro, Sneijder, Heitinga or even Anita, Goossens and Sarpong down the line. I don't see how Anderlecht is close in terms of individual talent.

Did we have horrible teams in the past few years? Perhaps when our CL succes ended in 1997 as a result of not enough money, but I can't think of a single season we did have "horrible" teams. We did have non-functioning teams, but the talent was always present.

When a 20 year old stud has the chance to go to either Anderlecht or Ajax, he really wouldn't hesitate.

Well, I must be the only one that doesn't understand how 1- past history and 2-last decade has anything to do with how Anderlecht would do in the dutch league.... :huh:
And isn't the last decade inside the "past history"?

Well, I must be the only one that doesn't understand how 1- past history and 2-last decade has anything to do with how Anderlecht would do in the dutch league.... :huh:
And isn't the last decade inside the "past history"?

The question wasn't really where Anderlecht would finish in the Dutch league, but moreso who was the best team, and for that, I think you have to take everything into consideration as "best" remains a pretty vague and wide concept..

Anderlecht would probably contend for the 3rd and 4th places. I don't think they have the tactics, talent and depth to edge out the top two teams in the Ere Divisie for a full year.

1) Anderlecht has a much easier time qualifying for the CL than Ajax, who's competition at the top is much more strict.

I will not accept this circular reasoning: ie we are actually disputing weather the Dutch league IS tougher, yet you assume that very thing right here.

The general (average) level of the Dutch league is higher that is not debated. I'm debating the #2-#4 against Bruges and Anderlecht.
Since the top 2 qualify in Holland as opposed to only the champions in the past in Belgium I don't think you can honestly say Anderlecht has an easier task qualifying.


2) By simply comparing their CL succes over the past 5 years determines the better team just how exactly?

You brought CL up as a clear example of why Ajax is much better as they "have done better in each and every year". I proved you wrong with an overview of the last 5 years, which on the current turnaround ratio for the smaller leagues like Belgium and Holland means about 'two squads' or 'generations' of players.



I think we should compare the teams in the following categories:

- General history: Ajax by a landside. One of the most richest and succesful teams in history. Their name and fame is enough to attract some decent international players who otherwise wouldn't have thought about playing in the Ere Divisie.

History is definately in Ajax's favour.

A landslide? Anderlecht has won 3 European Trophies, Ajax has won 6, three within one generation.
Anderlecht has a decent history as well. Besides that wasn't the point of debate was it.



- Last decade: Ajax, again by a landside. Their dominating days in the mid 90's are unmatched by Anderlecht. Won the UEFA Cup in 1992, the Champions League in 1995, runners up in 1996, reached another CL semi final in 1997, and reached the quarters on 3 other occasions.

Too bad 1995 is already the past decade :p:

Seriously:
Early 90's is when it is about equal for me: they both won around 4 national titles. Anderlecht reached it's last European final in 90 (EC2). Ajax won the UEFA in 92.
Thinking back about what both teams had those days they were equal indeed.

After that it is indeed so that Ajax moved ahead while Anderlecht moved backwards. I will even pinpoint the date when Anderlecht lost track with Europe's elite: 8 december 1993. Up 0-3 at Werder Bremen at halftime they collapsed and it got to 5-3 for Werder, it took Anderlecht 8 years to recover :eek:

Meanwhile Ajax roared ahead due to an exceptional generation of footballers!



- Recently (3 years till now): In terms of accompishments, both have been unimpressive, though Ajax did go on a pretty decent CL run. During those 3 years, Ajax delivered international stars such as van der Vaart, Ibrahimovic, Chivu and more recently; Maxwell and Trabelsi. Then there are tons, and I really mean tons of cast offs in other countries, including the Belgian League MVP of this year.

I'm sorry, Anderlecht has won two Belgian titles, Ajax 1, that's not completely unimpressive.

You seem to forget that domestic stuff counts as well!


This year, Ajax advanced through the 2nd round of the CL, won the Johan Cruijff schaal, the Dutch Cup and again managed to qualify for the CL. All this while it still stands as one of the most dissapointing years in Ajax history.

Next year projection/future: With Davids, Stam, Perez and a full year of Huntelaar, Ajax is building themselves a nice squad once again. The rest consists out of young, potential stars such as Emanuelson, Maduro, Sneijder, Heitinga or even Anita, Goossens and Sarpong down the line. I don't see how Anderlecht is close in terms of individual talent.

We'll see, I really can't judge what Anderlecht will look like next year.
I will agree on paper Ajax is bringing in impressive names. Anderlecht are in limbo right now.


This season they are about equal for me though. (which is what we were actually debating in the first place)




Did we have horrible teams in the past few years? Perhaps when our CL succes ended in 1997 as a result of not enough money, but I can't think of a single season we did have "horrible" teams. We did have non-functioning teams, but the talent was always present.

That's what I meant, talent means squad if you don't work as a team. I think most Ajax fans will agree that not winning the league is being horrible, just as Anderlecht fans do.
Both teams have a history of excellence (both domestic and international) and both aren't exactly delivering that the last five years ('only' 2 titles for Ajax - 3 for Anderlecht is a bit better).

On the European level it is equal as I have demonstrated.




When a 20 year old stud has the chance to go to either Anderlecht or Ajax, he really wouldn't hesitate.

Well he would likely go to a bottom feeder in the EPL for the money anyway, but that doesn't have anything to do with which team is better right now. It all depends on individual factors: Biglia rejected Valencia in favour of Anderlecht becasue of Frutos and the fact Anderlecht play CL. Does that make Anderlecht better? Hell no!

I will agree though that Ajax has the higher 'reputation' if you will, this is due to the fact that in general (and righfully so as already pointed out) Dutch football is held in higher regard.




Back to the original point:
The roster both teams used this season is more or less equal. To say Anderlecht wouldn't stand a chance to finish #2 in Holland is a statement I cannot agree with and I think I have given some good reason why. The relative CL succes of the teams up for debate (Bruges Anderlecht Ajax Feyenoord and AZ) is equal from what I can say about it.

Besides, Ajax only finished 4th didn't they this season :D





Since it's interesting I'll expand a bit on my opinion of the history:


60's:
I know Anderlecht had some pretty great teams these days, so had Ajax. Having not seen much of these and looking at the numbers it's equal.


70''s:
Early 70's obviously belonged to Ajax and Cruijff!
Late 70's was clearly in Anderlecht's favour (2 EC2, 1 EC2 Runner up in three consecutive years - Belgian football was awesome back then with Bruges reaching EC1 final)

80's:
Equality more or less throughout the 80's (EC 3 for Anderlecht - EC 2 for Ajax) for me. Both had good domestic succes, though Anderlecht had a bit more succes domestically


Early 90's:
Ajax = Anderlecht
(both dominated domestically and were very good in Europe)


95-00:
Ajax >> Anderlecht
Ajax continued domination and was a big player on the European field as well.
Anderlecht was in shambles, almost no domestic succes and internationally they weren't anyting to write home about either.

00-06:
Ajax regressed to being an also ran in Europe, and eventually to being an also ran in Holland. I think the evolution started earlier (no titles from 98-01!)
Anderlecht got back to dominating in Belgium (more or less) and has clawed back to a respectable level in the CL.

Future:
As proven in the past Ajax has better financial capabilities and given the ArenA there is little chance that will change quickly. However more talent doesn't necessarily mean better results, as the pas has indicated.







The question wasn't really where Anderlecht would finish in the Dutch league, but moreso who was the best team, and for that, I think you have to take everything into consideration as "best" remains a pretty vague and wide concept..

Anderlecht would probably contend for the 3rd and 4th places. I don't think they have the tactics, talent and depth to edge out the top two teams in the Ere Divisie for a full year.

OK, so Ajax finish #4 while Anderlecht would contend for 3d 4th because Ajax is #2 by default?


Anyway the point of debate IS what the belgian teams would do in the Dutch league, I see you still don't agree with me but I don't think I can give you much more evidence about how you're underestimating the Belgian top 2 (3) teams.

If you fail to accept the similarity in CL numbers which for me is the best and only comparative element that can be discussed we should call it a day on this discussion.


Since I'm posting something of mammoth size anyway here's my view:

1. PSV

2. Any of Ajax / Anderlecht / Bruges / Feyenoord / AZ / (maybe) Standard

6. From here on I think the difference between Belgium and Holland becomes clearer: Genk, Gent are very good.
However in Holland you have Groningen, Utrecht, Heerenveen, Roda, Twente, Nec and Vitesse all on a very competitive level. That's the difference for me.

Rest: meh, they all suck :p:

Does anybody have Holland vs. Belgium National Team Head to Head records for the last 5 years?
29-05-2004 Nederland-België Friendly 0-1
20-08-2003 België-Nederland Friendly 1-1
29-03-2000 België-Nederland Friendly 2-2
04-09-1999 Nederland-België Friendly 5-5
13-06-1998 Nederland-België WC 0-0
06-09-1997 Nederland-België WC qualification 3-1
14-12-1996 België-Nederland WC qualification 0-3
25-06-1994 België-Nederland WC 1-0
09-09-1987 Nederland-België Friendly 0-0
20-11-1985 Nederland-België WC qualification 2-1

Hard to beat those Belgians.


Ajax is crap, Anderlecht all the way !!



What about Holland vs. Belgium Club team Head to Head records? Last match up I remember was Gent-Ajax (UEFA Cup) 0-6. :eek:

20-11-1985 Nederland-België WC qualification 2-1



Hehe!

It's so unfair that the current generation (I was only 3 years at the time) is too young to remember this game. Thank god we've seen enough of it to remember how truly amazing that was.

Rik de Saedeleir, Erik Gerets and of course Georges Grün :yo: :yo: :yo: :yo:


The look on Beenhakker's face was amazing :D


Last match up I remember was Gent-Ajax (UEFA Cup) 0-6. :eek:

Was that the Gent of Viscaal and Vandenbergh? Must have been around 92-93 right? I avguely remember Gent playing against Ajax

Hehe!

It's so unfair that the current generation (I was only 3 years at the time) is too young to remember this game. Thank god we've seen enough of it to remember how truly amazing that was.

Rik de Saedeleir, Erik Gerets and of course Georges Grün :yo: :yo: :yo: :yo:
Don't forget Franky Vercauteren. ;)

Loreno Stealens thought he could do it better 13 years later.

Still a nightmare.


The look on Beenhakker's face was amazing :DHis look is always amazing. :D



Was that the Gent of Viscaal and Vandenbergh? Must have been around 92-93 right? I avguely remember Gent playing against Ajax No it was the end of another one...Henk Houwaart, September 2000.

No it was the end of another one...Henk Houwaart, September 2000.

True! Now that you say it it comes back. Henky Houwaart, Mr. Champagne himself.

Funny thing: after Ceulemans was sacked by Bruges and almost immediatly replaced by Ferreira he was quoted in all papers as saying (and not in jest but seriously) that he was disappointed Bruges didn't talk to him to succeed Ceulemans. lol!


By the way Leo Vanderelst just published a book about Mexico '86 (I guess he needs some money).
Funny story: after THE MATCH at the Kuip the Dutch 'forgot' to put some food in the Belgian dressing room (typical of you lot ;)) - so when the champagne started flying everyone was drunk within minutes so to speak. When the bus arrived Ceulemans drove back to Bruges with Franky and Leo Vanderelst in the car, al three drunk as hell. They nearly crashed their car blatantly ignoring thhe traffic rules when they finally arrived in Bruges. Two cops saw it and went over to the car. Vanderelst was sure they'd be busted for DUI. However Cuelemans got out of the car and calmly told the cops: "wijllie emme just de ollanders uitgeschakeld en wijllie gon na nor mexico" or something like that. The cops recognised him and gave the car an escort to the nearest café where they partied until closing time, with the cops.

Those were the days :)

Indeed, those were the days. Didn't know Belgium was such a banana republique back then. ;)

How things can change, nowadays parents get fined if their children don't go to school.

Indeed, those were the days. Didn't know Belgium was such a banana republique back then. ;)


Wallonia still is a banana republic

Although I'm not really supposed to say that out loud am I? :sarcasm: