Halladay Vs. Santana Vs. Buehrle

Dark Knight
07-06-2006, 01:03 PM
Who woud you take?

Who is better?

And..

Who is the best pitcher in the east ? in baseball ?

Lets have a discussion

Tuggy
07-06-2006, 01:10 PM
I think that Santana and Halladay are a step above Buehrle. That being said, I would give Santana the slightest of edges over Halladay. But both are elite.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod
07-06-2006, 01:41 PM
Why is Buehrle even an option?

Rusty Shackleford
07-06-2006, 03:46 PM
I'd put either Contreras or Schilling in there ahead of Buehrle, even Liriano.

Blades of Glory
07-06-2006, 03:50 PM
The fact that Buehrle is mentioned in the same sentence of the other two is hilarious. An all-star pitcher who has allowed 125 hits in 116 IP, and who was blasted for 10 ER last weekend.:biglaugh:

Teemu
07-06-2006, 10:45 PM
I'm a White Sox fan, and even I'd pick Santana

Bruinaholic
07-07-2006, 10:46 AM
I'd put either Contreras or Schilling in there ahead of Buehrle, even Liriano.

What he said

Biggsy
07-07-2006, 10:49 PM
I personally like Doc but Johan is a close 2nd guy is unreal

Evil Speaker
07-08-2006, 01:49 AM
K pitchers are more fun

Sherlock
07-08-2006, 01:41 PM
Gimme Johan.

Modo
07-08-2006, 04:50 PM
Santana

jaydub*
07-09-2006, 01:26 PM
Buerhle isn't even in their league. As a cubs fan living in Chicago, I have to deal with this type of stuff everyday :shakehead

Nothing worse than bandwagon sox fans

BuppY
07-09-2006, 02:54 PM
Doc Halladay. His head for pitching is great. It's like jeter said we know what this guy is going to throw at us but we still can't hit it.

Biggsy
07-09-2006, 04:42 PM
Doc has the 2nd Best ERA in the last 2 years next only to The Rocket

KH1
07-09-2006, 06:05 PM
Santana is miles ahead of Halladay, who is even farther ahead of Buehrle. I would take Mussina, Verlander, Schilling, Liriano or Kazmir over Buehrle to tell you the truth.

Halladay is the best pitcher in the AL East though, that's not even up for debate.

BlueAndWhite
07-10-2006, 11:59 AM
Santana is miles ahead of Halladay, who is even farther ahead of Buehrle.

Halladay is top 3 in the AL in wins (1st), ERA (3rd), fewest walks (tied for 2nd) and CG (2nd), he's 4th in WHIP.

Santana is top 3 in strikeouts (1st) and WHIP (2nd) and he's 4th in ERA.

Yeah, Santana is miles ahead of Halladay.

Biggsy
07-10-2006, 03:25 PM
Halladay is top 3 in the AL in wins (1st), ERA (3rd), fewest walks (tied for 2nd) and CG (2nd), he's 4th in WHIP.

Santana is top 3 in strikeouts (1st) and WHIP (2nd) and he's 4th in ERA.

Yeah, Santana is miles ahead of Halladay.

Hmm seems pretty close to me eh:loony:

KH1
07-10-2006, 05:33 PM
Halladay is top 3 in the AL in wins (1st), ERA (3rd), fewest walks (tied for 2nd) and CG (2nd), he's 4th in WHIP.

Santana is top 3 in strikeouts (1st) and WHIP (2nd) and he's 4th in ERA.

Yeah, Santana is miles ahead of Halladay.
Santana over last 3 seasons: 48 wins, 16 losses, 2.85 ERA, 0.97 WHIP
Halladay over last 3 seasons: 42 wins, 19 losses, 3.29 ERA, 1.26 WHIP

That's a pretty significant difference in ERA and WHIP. Plus, this can't really be blamed on Halladay but Santana has proven himself a playoff pitcher and Halladay hasn't. Not to mention that Halladay has had injury problems while Santana has not.

BlueAndWhite
07-10-2006, 05:59 PM
Santana over last 3 seasons: 48 wins, 16 losses, 2.85 ERA, 0.97 WHIP
Halladay over last 3 seasons: 42 wins, 19 losses, 3.29 ERA, 1.26 WHIP

That's a pretty significant difference in ERA and WHIP. Plus, this can't really be blamed on Halladay but Santana has proven himself a playoff pitcher and Halladay hasn't. Not to mention that Halladay has had injury problems while Santana has not.

Santana over the last 4 seasons: 56 wins, 22 losses, 2.89 ERA,1.05 WHIP
Halladay over the last 4 seasons: 61 wins, 26 losses, 3.19 ERA, 1.12 WHIP

I fail to see how Santana is miles ahead, esp. as you pointed out Halladay has had one injury plagued season (2004 where he had the highest ERA, WHIP of his last seven seasons and only managed 8 wins).

Your comparison included Halladay's injury season and 2005 where Mench hit the ball at his leg, those two seasons were barely 20 starts a piece.

He broke his leg in 2005 after being hit by a pitch, that could happen to anyone. So he has one injury plagued season in almost 8 years and that classifies as having "injury problems" ?

And Santana is proven in the playoffs ? He's basically been horrible except for 12 innings in 2004.

2002 ALDS - ERA = 6.00
2002 ALCS - ERA = 10.80
2003 ALDS - ERA = 7.04
2004 ALDS - ERA = 0.75

Lobstertainment
07-10-2006, 07:42 PM
Roy>Johan

KH1
07-10-2006, 10:13 PM
Santana over the last 4 seasons: 56 wins, 22 losses, 2.89 ERA,1.05 WHIP
Halladay over the last 4 seasons: 61 wins, 26 losses, 3.19 ERA, 1.12 WHIP

I fail to see how Santana is miles ahead, esp. as you pointed out Halladay has had one injury plagued season (2004 where he had the highest ERA, WHIP of his last seven seasons and only managed 8 wins).

Your comparison included Halladay's injury season and 2005 where Mench hit the ball at his leg, those two seasons were barely 20 starts a piece.

He broke his leg in 2005 after being hit by a pitch, that could happen to anyone. So he has one injury plagued season in almost 8 years and that classifies as having "injury problems" ?

And Santana is proven in the playoffs ? He's basically been horrible except for 12 innings in 2004.

2002 ALDS - ERA = 6.00
2002 ALCS - ERA = 10.80
2003 ALDS - ERA = 7.04
2004 ALDS - ERA = 0.75
I seem to remember Halladay having arm problems very early in his career, perhaps I am making them up--I always thought that they were the reason for his inconsistency.

As for Johan in the playoffs, I think that he's proven that he can be a dominant playoff pitcher in October. His performance in 2004 proved it. It's easy to forget how young he is--it's scary that he's still developing.

BTW your logic basically says that my comparison is unfair because it includes the 2 seasons where Halladay doesn't have good stats. That's unfortunate for him, but those 2 seasons are good reasons why Santana is a better pitcher than him.

Kritty
07-10-2006, 10:40 PM
Santana is miles ahead of Halladay

Wow, that is just wrong. Those two are so close it isn't even funny. Right now, Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball.

BlueAndWhite
07-11-2006, 12:40 AM
I seem to remember Halladay having arm problems very early in his career, perhaps I am making them up--I always thought that they were the reason for his inconsistency.

As for Johan in the playoffs, I think that he's proven that he can be a dominant playoff pitcher in October. His performance in 2004 proved it. It's easy to forget how young he is--it's scary that he's still developing.

BTW your logic basically says that my comparison is unfair because it includes the 2 seasons where Halladay doesn't have good stats. That's unfortunate for him, but those 2 seasons are good reasons why Santana is a better pitcher than him.

It just boggles my mind that you can so easily ignore ERA's of 6, 10 and 7 in his previous postseason series and use his one good series as the absolute determination of his playoff performances.

Santana is just two years younger than Halladay.

I made the comments to point out that your comparison required an asterisk because Halladay's stats took a dive because of isolated injury problems. Those two seasons were abberations for Halladay over his career because of injuries.

If Santana gets hit by a pitch tommorow and he's forced to miss the rest of the season, does that make him an inferior pitcher to Halladay ?

Bottom line is you're off-base with your comment that Santana is miles ahead of Halladay, and you haven't been able to prove it statistically.

KH1
07-11-2006, 10:42 PM
It just boggles my mind that you can so easily ignore ERA's of 6, 10 and 7 in his previous postseason series and use his one good series as the absolute determination of his playoff performances.

Santana is just two years younger than Halladay.

I made the comments to point out that your comparison required an asterisk because Halladay's stats took a dive because of isolated injury problems. Those two seasons were abberations for Halladay over his career because of injuries.

If Santana gets hit by a pitch tommorow and he's forced to miss the rest of the season, does that make him an inferior pitcher to Halladay ?

Bottom line is you're off-base with your comment that Santana is miles ahead of Halladay, and you haven't been able to prove it statistically.
If Santana got hit with a pitch tomorrow and missed the rest of the season, it would give Halladay an advantage over him. Why has Barry Bonds hit more homeruns than Ken Griffey Jr.? Because of injuries, it's something that you have to take into account when evaluating a player.

And I don't ignore his playoff numbers from the previous three seasons any more than you ignore his outstanding ALDS. You can't have it both ways.

Yes Im Peter Ing
07-12-2006, 05:01 AM
If Santana got hit with a pitch tomorrow and missed the rest of the season, it would give Halladay an advantage over him. Why has Barry Bonds hit more homeruns than Ken Griffey Jr.? Because of injuries, it's something that you have to take into account when evaluating a player.

And I don't ignore his playoff numbers from the previous three seasons any more than you ignore his outstanding ALDS. You can't have it both ways.

Are you suggesting that Roy Halladay is somehow more susceptible to being struck by line drives than other pitchers?

Ironchef Chris Wok*
07-12-2006, 10:04 AM
Are you suggesting that Roy Halladay is somehow more susceptible to being struck by line drives than other pitchers?

This is complete BS I'm just making up at the moment, but Halladay DOES have a higher Ball in Play rate than Santana, and I THINK a higher LD rate (not sure), so maybe, i have no clue.

BlueAndWhite
07-12-2006, 11:00 AM
If Santana got hit with a pitch tomorrow and missed the rest of the season, it would give Halladay an advantage over him. Why has Barry Bonds hit more homeruns than Ken Griffey Jr.? Because of injuries, it's something that you have to take into account when evaluating a player.


My point was that Halladay's number were remarkbly close to Santana's despite missing time. I'm arguing about the calibre of the pitcher not who had the better season or career. You are the only person who seems to think Santana is miles better.


And I don't ignore his playoff numbers from the previous three seasons any more than you ignore his outstanding ALDS. You can't have it both ways.


No, genius - you are ignoring his previous three postseason series. All along you say that Santana is dominant or proven. All I have said was that he's "hot and cold". How is that ignoring his good performance ?

Then again, BJ Ryan sucks and Baltimore will finish ahead of the Blue Jays...right ?

Ironchef Chris Wok*
07-12-2006, 11:21 AM
I actually like Santana a little better because he's left handed and two years younger, but that's just me.

BlueAndWhite
07-12-2006, 12:27 PM
I actually like Santana a little better because he's left handed and two years younger, but that's just me.

That's your perogative. Even if Santana wasn't left-handed or two years younger, you could make a case for him being the better pitcher.

However, IMO - he isn't "miles ahead" of Halladay.

Buffalo87
07-12-2006, 11:36 PM
Why is Buehrle even in this poll? I can think of 10 guys of the top of my head that would be a better fit. Johan Santana is the best pitcher in baseball but Halladay may be number 2.

Teemu
07-12-2006, 11:41 PM
Why is Buehrle even in this poll? I can think of 10 guys of the top of my head that would be a better fit. Johan Santana is the best pitcher in baseball but Halladay may be number 2.

for trolling purposes, mostly ;)

Bob Clarke Fan Club
07-18-2006, 04:32 PM
Johan, Roy Halladay Francisco Liriano...Roy's a different pitcher but can be pretty nasty as well. Buehrle sticks out like a sore thumb next to these guys. I'll give props to Chris Carpenter as well. ;)

bfire
07-20-2006, 06:43 AM
Roy is nasty wit it

The Man in White
07-21-2006, 11:02 PM
Johan, Roy Halladay Francisco Liriano...Roy's a different pitcher but can be pretty nasty as well. Buehrle sticks out like a sore thumb next to these guys. I'll give props to Chris Carpenter as well. ;)

A former Jay. :banghead:

KesselBuiltMyHotrod
07-21-2006, 11:12 PM
I'd like to change my vote to Beuhrle.

Roo
07-22-2006, 12:27 AM
No doubt its very close, and Santana is a great pitcher. But personally i feel Halladay is the best pitcher in baseball. Santana a very close second.

Im sure though im a little biased, i defn dont get to see Johan pitch as much as i would like.

Stefan
07-26-2006, 03:46 AM
I'm obviously a Jays fan, and I'm very torn in this poll... I'm tempted to lean towards Santana, but then Doc does and wins his 13th game of the year. I guess we'll have to hope for a Doc/Santana matchup when the Jays roll into Minny in a few weeks!

If that happens, I'll take the under.

Lobstertainment
07-26-2006, 08:04 PM
This is complete BS I'm just making up at the moment, but Halladay DOES have a higher Ball in Play rate than Santana, and I THINK a higher LD rate (not sure), so maybe, i have no clue.

This is pretty spot on. Roy is more of a groundball pitcher, Johan always has a boatload more K's then Doc, Halladay's bread and butter isn't to strike out everyone, he induces a lot of groundballs.

that said every pitcher has just as much of a chance of being hit by a line drive, allthough in Doc's case the ball heads for his legs, in another pitcher's case it might hit them in the head.

oli500
07-26-2006, 08:52 PM
Halladay plays vs the yankees and red sox and still puts up incridible numbers

santana dosent have to play those power houses as much as halladay thus

This is the first year in many many years were the central might be better than the east. It was just last year that the central started to get some great pitching with the white sox but before that when the twins kept winning santana dident have much of a competition as the rest of the pitching staf in the central were weak. Halladay for a long time had to face the likes of clemens,pedro,shilling,musina :teach:. In terms of starting pitching the yanks and sox allways had the best up tell now. So if you take this into consideration halladay should be mention among the best and is a better pitcher than santana.

Stefan
07-27-2006, 01:18 AM
Halladay plays vs the yankees and red sox and still puts up incridible numbers

Good point which I hadn't heard mentioned before. Halladay has put up Santana numbers all along in a way stronger division, would Santana's numbers have been as good if he was facing the AL East teams on a regular basis while the Central was a mediocre division?

Food for thought.

KH1
07-27-2006, 10:37 PM
Halladay plays vs the yankees and red sox and still puts up incridible numbers

santana dosent have to play those power houses as much as halladay thus

This is the first year in many many years were the central might be better than the east. It was just last year that the central started to get some great pitching with the white sox but before that when the twins kept winning santana dident have much of a competition as the rest of the pitching staf in the central were weak. Halladay for a long time had to face the likes of clemens,pedro,shilling,musina :teach:. In terms of starting pitching the yanks and sox allways had the best up tell now. So if you take this into consideration halladay should be mention among the best and is a better pitcher than santana.
Just for the record, it's worth noting that Halladay has a career ERA of 4.47 against Boston (he's only pitched worse against Anaheim, Texas and Oakland.) But his career ERA vs. AL East lightweights Tampa Bay (3.35) and Baltimore (2.90) are among his best vs. any team in baseball.

He cleans up against bad teams, like any great pitcher should. It's just not a great point about how he's better than Santana considering that Santana has a lower career ERA vs. the Yankees, Red Sox and the 2 teams that have ever challenged him inside his division (Chicago and Cleveland.)

oli500
07-27-2006, 10:54 PM
Just for the record, it's worth noting that Halladay has a career ERA of 4.47 against Boston (he's only pitched worse against Anaheim, Texas and Oakland.) But his career ERA vs. AL East lightweights Tampa Bay (3.35) and Baltimore (2.90) are among his best vs. any team in baseball.

He cleans up against bad teams, like any great pitcher should. It's just not a great point about how he's better than Santana considering that Santana has a lower career ERA vs. the Yankees, Red Sox and the 2 teams that have ever challenged him inside his division (Chicago and Cleveland.)

Again if santana was in the east im sure his era vs the two teams would be much bigger just because he would play those team alot more.

KH1
07-27-2006, 11:16 PM
Again if santana was in the east im sure his era vs the two teams would be much bigger just because he would play those team alot more.
So your arguement is that Halladay, who has a very high ERA against Boston (though to be fair has historically pitched well against the Yankees) is better than Santana because if Santana pitched in the AL East his ERA would probably be really high against two teams that he's dominated throughout his career?

I'm not buying it.

bigdoubled
07-28-2006, 01:08 AM
I would take roy Halladay anyday as my number starter

Scoogs
07-28-2006, 01:21 AM
Don't have to be a strikeout pitcher to be dominant.

Roy > Johan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buehrle

Bob Clarke Fan Club
07-28-2006, 12:16 PM
Again if santana was in the east im sure his era vs the two teams would be much bigger just because he would play those team alot more.





I don't suppose you caught Johan's dirty 13 k performance against the Red Sox last time out didja? Roy's great but Santana dominates no matter who he faces as well.

Bob Clarke Fan Club
07-28-2006, 12:18 PM
Don't have to be a strikeout pitcher to be dominant.

Roy > Johan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Buehrle



A 40 homer guy doesn't have to steal 40 bases either...isn't he more valuable if he does though?:dunno: Santana is at another level.