Best closer of all time

With Rivera getting his 400th save last night, they were talking on ESPN radio about whether he was the best closer of all-time. One thought he was, while the other thought it was Sutter.

So who is it?

That's such a tough call, Rivera is a career stud closer playing on one of the best put together teams in baseball history.

Suter, Smith, even Hoffman are up there but they didn't have the same teams to play on.

It could also be argued that Rivera has had less opportunities for saves because his team has consistently beaten up on teams, therefore less save situations.

Rivera is the rock that has made the Yankees what they are, especially in the late 90's.

Without him they may not have had that ridiculous World Series streak.

I think if he's not the clear cut number 1, he' definately 1a) or 1b)

You could say that Eckersley had the most dominant stretch and who knows what he could have done if he hadn't started for 10 years, but Rivera has been virtually a sure thing for his entire career. The longevity combined with the rediculous success makes this an easy choice.

STEVE BEDROSIAN - anyone who can bring a Cy Young Award to the place where pitching goes to die (Philadelphia) is the best pitcher ever. The fact he was a closer makes the award that much more amazing.

Go Phillies!!! Oh, wait we're out of it? Well, atleast we made it interesting until June. :banghead:

i say no to mo

There's one thing about Rivera though, and that is he blew a world series with two outs in the 9th against the Dback, he also blew two 9th inning leads against the Red Sox in the 2004 ALCS.

He's accomplished so much else that he doesn't really get nailed for costing the Yanks a world series and blowing multiple 9th inning leads against the Sox.

But to me it seems he hasn't been post season clutch the last few years.

That's a sure blown World Series on his resume, and a blown ALCS where he had multiple attempts and failed.

Still, probably the best ever, but he isn't perfect.

Hoyt Wilhelm

For me it's Mariano Rivera or Rollie Fingers

I give the nod to Rollie because Rivera's career hasn't been as long as Rollie's was yet. Sure he's got more saves, but it was a different era. Rollie was earning 30 saves and throwing twice as many innings as Rivera does now.

Rivera has 9 seasons now (10 if this year keeps up) in a row where he's had an ERA below 3.

in Rollie's 13 years in the "closer" role from 1971 to 1984, he had a sub 3.00 ERA every year but one in 1979.

In the end, it's really hard to pick one because of how much the closer's role has changed since the days of Rollie Fingers, however.

I said Rivera. It's hard to argue against him, and in that stretch from 97 to about 2003, if you were down after 8 in Yankee Stadium, game over.

It isn't fair to the Smiths, Gossages, etc. from the era before the save stat ruined bullpen management, though. Those guys would go three innings a few times a week. They really can't be compared.

The Eck

Eckersley

I went with Mariano Rivera. The man has been as close to a shore thing as anyone has been for the last ten seasons. I wonder what the Red Sox could have accomplished

I understand the arguments for the Rollie Fingers or Goose Gossage types of the 1970's and 1980's. Those guys had two get six or more outs in their apperances.

Rivera is just the most perfect contemporary closer. He has also had to deal with the higher offense era.

After rethinking, I'm going to assume that Jon Papelbon was left off just to "make it fair" for the other candidates. :sarcasm:

Rivera is still the best in the league, and I don't think there's much doubt he's #1 all time. Rollie, Eckersley and Hoffman are 2, 3, and 4.

Mariana Rivera.

Lee Smith...Go Cubs!:handclap:

Even Eck says its Rivera - case closed.

http://msgnetwork.com/content_news.jsp?articleID=20060717212137600000201-a&newsgroup=ap.sportsml.baseball.mlb.news&sports=baseball&team=Yankees&league=mlb

I personally think Eck, but the inclusion of Henke is a disgrace.

I personally think Eck, but the inclusion of Henke is a disgrace.



where's Tim Burke?

Mo FTW

Anybody who didn't vote for Rivera is IMO either a shameless homer, Yankee-hater or idiot. Rivera is argueably the best regular season reliever of all-time (400 freaking saves is nothing to sneeze at, and he'll probably retire the all-time leader unless Hoffman goes longer than I expect) but is also undebatably the greatest postseason reliever ever, and possibly the greatest postseason pitcher ever (though that is much more up for debate.)

Eckersley I could potentially see because he was quite the dominating pitcher, but the fact that 3 people answered Tom Henke is embarrassing even by this site's standards.

The thought that if they were managing a team in game 7 of the World Series with a 1 run lead in the 9th, 5 people would bring in either Lee Smith or Tom Henke and leave Mo Rivera in the pen makes me question my faith in humanity.

I personally think Eck, but the inclusion of Henke is a disgrace.

Inclusion of Henke is a disgrace? Care to elaborate?

Hoyt Wilhelm - I like it. The Monster should get a nod there, too, if only in the same way Allosaurus should be recognized in kind with T-Rex.

I think it outlines what a truly contemporary discussion this is. This role has only been around for about 40-odd years, and in its very specialized state for the past 15 years or so. Comparing Wilhelm to Sutter and even more Sutter to Rivera seems like apples and oranges to me. The relief pitchers pitched when they were needed in the 50s and 60s (Radatz and Wilhelm averaged around 2 IP per appearance). The Sutters, Tekulves, and Gossages pitched for fewer IP per appearance and more at the very end of the game. Today, they're used almost exclusively at the end of the game when their club has the lead. It's considered unusual when a closer comes in without the lead, and I think that's too bad. You want your best pitcher pitching in the most crucial situations.

In a very real sense, the modern closer has developed through catering to a rather arbitrary statistic: the save. At any rate, as far as modern closers go, I think that Hoffman, Rivera, and Eckersley stand out. In a quick comparison, as relievers only (through 2005):

IP, K, WHIP, K/BB
1) 780, 0.99, 661/97 (6.81)
2) 822, 1.05, 915/237 (3.86)
3) 806, 1.05, 728/215 (3.39)

Which one is which?

The thought that if they were managing a team in game 7 of the World Series with a 1 run lead in the 9th, 5 people would bring in either Lee Smith or Tom Henke and leave Mo Rivera in the pen makes me question my faith in humanity.

well, in all fairness Rivera is the only one on the list who has choked away a lead in a game 7 of the world series.

Inclusion of Henke is a disgrace? Care to elaborate?

He is nowhere near the best of all time.

He is nowhere near the best of all time.

No but I wanted to have ten people in the poll. He has over 300 saves and was a key player for the Jays championship runs.

well, in all fairness Rivera is the only one on the list who has choked away a lead in a game 7 of the world series.
That's irrelevant, you wouldn't pitch Lee Smith or Tom Henke before him.

To Stanley's point, the reason that Radatz should be included is because he is the only closer other than Rivera and possibly Eckersley who has truly intimidated dominated his comptetition every time he took the mound. The problem is that he only had 4 good years before his arm blew out.

Eric Gagne...minus the elbow of course.;)

Tom Henke was no joke...guy was awesome.

He definately deserves to be in the conversation, though like Dick Radatz he hasn't been effective for long enough to warrant serious consideration.

Francisco Rodriguez is the guy to watch in this race.

The lack of Quizman and Tekulve love makes me emo.

To Stanley's point, the reason that Radatz should be included is because he is the only closer other than Rivera and possibly Eckersley who has truly intimidated dominated his comptetition every time he took the mound. The problem is that he only had 4 good years before his arm blew out.
More than that, I just raised his name subjectively. I wouldn't even begin to try and compare this quasi-position across generations since the pitchers in this "role" from the 60s are used so much differently than today (heck, it wasn't really even a "role" forty years ago.) Heck, it was quite different 20 years ago, when guys like Sutter, Gossage, and Lee frequently pitched more than 1 inning without it seeming the exception to the rule. At least it seems that way.

Anywho, as you mentioned, Radatz was only around for a few years as a productive pitcher. Interestingly, his size had a lot to do with his physical character, being six-and-a-half feet tall.

The lack of Quizman and Tekulve love makes me emo.
I always believed Tekulve was actually the team accountant pushed into duty. It's sort of funny to juxtapose the appearances of Tekulve and Radatz. One looked like he'd do your taxes, the other looked like he'd do whatever the heck he wanted, thank you, sir.

Speaking of looks, nobody will ever trump the Mad Hungarian in that department.

You could say that Eckersley had the most dominant stretch and who knows what he could have done if he hadn't started for 10 years, but Rivera has been virtually a sure thing for his entire career. The longevity combined with the rediculous success makes this an easy choice.
Doc,
You could easily compare them. Eckersley pitched exclusively as a reliever for 11 years. This is Rivera's 11th season. What's scary is how many saves Eckersley would have had if he started his career as a reliever instead of spending 13 as a starter. Of course, he would have certainly been used differently in the 1970s and early 1980s instead of in a specialized role as most relievers are used today.

IP, K, WHIP, K/BB
1) 780, 0.99, 661/97 (6.81)
2) 822, 1.05, 915/237 (3.86)
3) 806, 1.05, 728/215 (3.39)

Which one is which?
I'll take a stab at it, Stan. How about Eckersley, Hoffman, and Rivera, in that order?

You got it, Stan!

The Eck.

Even if I only got to see him in the late stages of his career I have NEVER seen a closer dominate the game the way he has. Rivera comes the closest but I still take the Eck over him if the game's on the line.

I'll take a stab at it, Stan. How about Eckersley, Hoffman, and Rivera, in that order?

You got it, Stan!

:D Nicely done.

Of course, he would have certainly been used differently in the 1970s and early 1980s instead of in a specialized role as most relievers are used today.

To Rivera's credit, he does pitch a good number of 2 inning saves, unlike many of his contemporaries.

Doc,
You could easily compare them. Eckersley pitched exclusively as a reliever for 11 years. This is Rivera's 11th season. What's scary is how many saves Eckersley would have had if he started his career as a reliever instead of spending 13 as a starter. Of course, he would have certainly been used differently in the 1970s and early 1980s instead of in a specialized role as most relievers are used today.


I'll take a stab at it, Stan. How about Eckersley, Hoffman, and Rivera, in that order?

You got it, Stan!

Well done. Looking back at the numbers, Eck was much better than I remembered towards then end of his career. Decent numbers in St. Louis for a couple of years and suprisingly passable numbers in Boston. I had remembered that as being an unmitigated disaster. Perhaps it was my violent hatred of the late 80's-early 90's Eckersley and his A's that are clouding my memories of the past???

Well done.
Nicely done.
Thanks, guys, but I can't lie - I know the guy who asked the questions pretty well.

To Rivera's credit, he does pitch a good number of 2 inning saves, unlike many of his contemporaries.
I don't think this is correct. He's used almost exclusively in save situations by Torre, and he averages 1.10 IP/appearance not including 1995 when they tried him as a starter and 1996 when he was setting up and not used in the closer role for most of the year. If he were used in only save situations - which on occasion every closer is not - he would average a 2-inning appearance every 10 appearances. I think your eyes are fooling you, which is why I wanted to figure it out by looking at the data. Don't trust me - check it out:

Rivera: http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/riverma01.shtml
Hoffman: http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hoffmtr01.shtml
Eckersley: http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/eckerde01.shtml

Hoffman really has the highest IP/APP ration, but they're so close that it's really splitting hairs. We could say the same thing about Hoffman and Eck that I did about Mo in regard to usage. They were/are all used in very specific scenarios. (Using saves as a guideline is meaningless. Again, a stat based on circumstance.) They're three remarkably comparable pitchers, statistically.

I think the real theme, as it relates to this to this thread, is that it should be broken down by generation. We'll just be guessing at how well Hoffman compares with Quisenberry, and how well Sutter compares with Radatz. We can't truly compare them because the role has evolved into a very specialized one. We could have a thread about each generation individually and probably at least narrow it down to a select few, but it will just end up in brow beating without any supporting evidence if we try it otherwise.

Why isn't Armando Benitez on this list?:sarcasm:

Eckersley for coining the term "Walk-off homerun" in 1988.

Thanks, guys, but I can't lie - I know the guy who asked the questions pretty well.


I don't think this is correct. He's used almost exclusively in save situations by Torre, and he averages 1.10 IP/appearance not including 1995 when they tried him as a starter and 1996 when he was setting up and not used in the closer role for most of the year. If he were used in only save situations - which on occasion every closer is not - he would average a 2-inning appearance every 10 appearances. I think your eyes are fooling you, which is why I wanted to figure it out by looking at the data. Don't trust me - check it out:

Rivera: http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/riverma01.shtml
Hoffman: http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/hoffmtr01.shtml
Eckersley: http://www.baseball-reference.com/e/eckerde01.shtml

Hoffman really has the highest IP/APP ration, but they're so close that it's really splitting hairs. We could say the same thing about Hoffman and Eck that I did about Mo in regard to usage. They were/are all used in very specific scenarios. (Using saves as a guideline is meaningless. Again, a stat based on circumstance.) They're three remarkably comparable pitchers, statistically.

I think the real theme, as it relates to this to this thread, is that it should be broken down by generation. We'll just be guessing at how well Hoffman compares with Quisenberry, and how well Sutter compares with Radatz. We can't truly compare them because the role has evolved into a very specialized one. We could have a thread about each generation individually and probably at least narrow it down to a select few, but it will just end up in brow beating without any supporting evidence if we try it otherwise.

That's what I get for shooting my mouth off I guess. Maybe it just seems like he's in there in the 8th alot in the postseason, which is the only time I really follow the Yanks, and even then, it probably isn't even really true.

Perception is a devious thing though. I know, for me, that when Rivera came in, it seemed like the game was over %99.99 of the time from about '97 up until that game 7 against the D-backs. Since then, he's been relatively mortal.

well, in all fairness Rivera is the only one on the list who has choked away a lead in a game 7 of the world series.

Yeah those Diamondbacks smoked Mariano that night:shakehead

In all fairness your hatred of everything yankees is well noted on these boards..

Yeah those Diamondbacks smoked Mariano that night:shakehead

In all fairness your hatred of everything yankees is well noted on these boards..

In all fairness everything I said was correct. Rivera was terrible that game. Not saying he is a perenial choker, because his record speaks for itself. But when somebody makes the comment who would you want on the mound in game 7 of the world series can't be made unless you qualify it with the fact that Rivera did choke against the dbacks. Not that this tarnishes his record. In his career he has a world series mvp, absolutly ungodly numbers top to bottom. I think he has only 4 career blown saves in the post season? That's pretty impressive. I never questioned his worthyness of being on the list, in fact I'd probably put him at number 2 behind Eckersley.

No but I wanted to have ten people in the poll. He has over 300 saves and was a key player for the Jays championship runs.

He was only their for the first one. Henke was a good closer, but you can't put Henke up there and then leave Jose Mesa off. I would like to add that I am in no way saying Jose Mesa deserves consideration. Although his 1995 season was better than any season that Rivera, Gagne, Henke and pretty much everybody other than Eckersley have had.

In all fairness everything I said was correct. Rivera was terrible that game. Not saying he is a perenial choker, because his record speaks for itself. But when somebody makes the comment who would you want on the mound in game 7 of the world series can't be made unless you qualify it with the fact that Rivera did choke against the dbacks. Not that this tarnishes his record. In his career he has a world series mvp, absolutly ungodly numbers top to bottom. I think he has only 4 career blown saves in the post season? That's pretty impressive. I never questioned his worthyness of being on the list, in fact I'd probably put him at number 2 behind Eckersley.

It is clear you didn't watch game 7 in 01

It is clear you didn't watch game 7 in 01

It is also clear you have not watched Rivera pitch..

You are the guy that had a problem with the way Rivera handled a death in the family a few years back. I don't respect your opinions about anything and i wish i didn't respond to your post because i know where you stand on everything yankees.

Think what you want..I don't care

PS

How bout those Indians once again the joke of the American League..

And it is very clear I watched game 7 in 01. The 2 big hits were from Tony Womack and Matt Williams. 2 guys who couldn't hit a beach ball the entire playoffs then he gives up a triple and double to them? On top of that he hit Craig Counsell. He had a good 8th inning, but that's because the d'backs swung at every pitch. He wasn't even close to the strikezone. The learned, and let Rivera pitch his own death with glaring control problems. You are the one without any objectivity, you said that Schilling and his 7 ip with 2 er was a choke job. The fact is, the only player that game who choked was Rivera.

Jose Mesa!


I tell you man, every time Mesa blow a save, Larry Bowa man, he would take him and put him right back up on de horse man. It was like his very own Lima Time.

Hands down Rivera,and I hate the Yankees.

It's Mo, and it's not even close. And i HATE the Yankees.

The guy is a monster.

Sutter, Eck and Gossage are worth talking about, but they're clear also-rans.

How is Dan Quisenberry missing from this poll :dunno: :dunno: The man was a dominant closer in the early to mid 1980's. Baseball, specifically with regards to the closer role, was quite different back then. Consider that in 1983 Quisenberry has 45 saves in 139 IP's. In comparison, Tom Henke had a career high of 40 saves in 1993 while pitching only 74 innings - just over half of what Quisenberry had to pitch.

As for the poll, it is clearly Rivera and this is from a Red Sox fan stuck living in NY and dealing with obnoxious Yankee fans everyday!

Sutter, Eck and Gossage are worth talking about, but they're clear also-rans.
How can you write this? Sutter and Gossage were contemporaries, Eckersley was not as a reliever. The role was specialized in the late 1970s and early 80s, and it became even more so in the 90s and into today. Cross-generational comparisons (e.g., Quisenberry to Rivera) are apples-and-oranges scenarios.

Hands down clearly Mo,and I HATE the Yankees as a Red Sox fan.
I'm only offended because it's like you guys looked at the information I briefly researched here and completely disregarded it. Or posted without reading the thread.

The only thing that's clear is that Rivera, Hoffman, and Eckersley are so close statistically that they're indecipherable for the purposes of our forum. Rarely do we get a discussion here where we have several contemporary players with large and very similar data sets. Why waste it?

I also don't know what loving or hating the Yankees has to do with anything at all.

Hey stan, I'll give your last statement a shot there...

Apparently, if you irrationally hate something and you are able to identify excellence in it, it proves that your opinion about the excellence you see in the thing you hate is correct, even you've got all this irrational hate swirling around the conversation.

I hate it when people use that to support their arguments too.

How is Dan Quisenberry missing from this poll :dunno: :dunno: The man was a dominant closer in the early to mid 1980's. Baseball, specifically with regards to the closer role, was quite different back then. Consider that in 1983 Quisenberry has 45 saves in 139 IP's. In comparison, Tom Henke had a career high of 40 saves in 1993 while pitching only 74 innings - just over half of what Quisenberry had to pitch.
!

YES!!!

QUIZMAN LOVE!!!

YES!!!!

I'm only offended because it's like you guys looked at the information I briefly researched here and completely disregarded it. Or posted without reading the thread.

Guilty, in this case. I was out of town for the past 8 days, and was in hyper-catchup mode, so I didn't give the thread full attention until now. However...

The only thing that's clear is that Rivera, Hoffman, and Eckersley are so close statistically that they're indecipherable for the purposes of our forum. Rarely do we get a discussion here where we have several contemporary players with large and very similar data sets. Why waste it?

Well, yes and no. If all things are equal or games are played in a vacuum...then yes, raw statistics alone will do the trick. However, in an opinion-based poll like this, I find that going with experience and what you believe in your heart makes for the more entertaining and interesting conversation.

I also don't know what loving or hating the Yankees has to do with anything at all.

Come now, stanley. You've been around HFBoards enough to see the way Flames fans pop into any thread about an Oilers prospect and spit doo-doo. Or the way Habs fans will disparage any positive thread about a Bruins player. As fans of whichever teams we follow, naturally we scorn our rivals. I'm a die-hard Mets fan, and as such, I hate the Yankees passionately. My point was merely to acknowledge that I'm not always capable of being objective, aforementioned animus in mind, and even I have to give props to Mariano Rivera as the best closer that I have seen in my 23 years of watching baseball.

Rollie Fingers because he has the best name.

Rivera

However, in an opinion-based poll like this, I find that going with experience and what you believe in your heart makes for the more entertaining and interesting conversation.
That's true. Opinion is part of what makes discussion fun.

-----------------

s3por2d/nmk -
Good points on the reason for bringing up the "I hate the [enter most hated team], but..." thing.

Don't forget Sparky Lyle.
1977 Cy Young as a closer. He was to pitching smarts what Gossage was to raw power.

the 200 IP Relief Man/PHD should get some love too.

He wasn't the best, but Mike Marshall is my favorite closer of all time.

They never did anything solo, but the setup-closing combo of Charleton, Meyers, and Dibble - aka the Nasty Boys - were pretty formidible in their time.

For anyone other than Mariano to get the nod is ridiculous.The guy's automatic 98% of the time.This coming from a Mets fan

Eckersley followed by Hoffman and Rivera.

Voted for Rivera. As long as he goes another couple of seasons, he can claim being the best. One closer left off the list who deserves mention is Kent Tekulve. Incredible side arm pitcher. A big part of their championship success in the late 70's.

The fact that Tom Henke has as many votes as Smith, Gossage, Sutter, and Fingers combined is ****ing sad. Canadian bias, anyone?

Johnny Boy

For anyone other than Mariano to get the nod is ridiculous.The guy's automatic 98% of the time.This coming from a Mets fan

I am pretty sure every baseball fan on this board is familiar with Rivera more than any player in the majors because during every post-season game, whether or not it involves the yankees, we are force fed this crap about Rivera being the best closer in post season history and given his life story. The fact is for a 3 year period he was lights out, but ever since 2001 when he choked away a dynasty he has been markedly human. Still world class, but certainly not decidedly better than the other all timers.

The fact is for a 3 year period he was lights out, but ever since 2001 when he choked away a dynasty he has been markedly human.
Since 2001 he has pitched 32 2/3 innings in the postseason and has given up a grand total of 3 earned runs for an era of 0.83. I'll take that from someone who is markedly human any day of the week.

Since 2001 he has pitched 32 2/3 innings in the postseason and has given up a grand total of 3 earned runs for an era of 0.83. I'll take that from someone who is markedly human any day of the week.

he is also only 10/13 in save oppurtunities. Granted that is still really good, but hardly incredible. Like I said, human. He is still probably the best of today's closers, at least in the post season, however he isn't racing ahead of any of the other all timers.

he is also only 10/13 in save oppurtunities. Granted that is still really good, but hardly incredible. Like I said, human. He is still probably the best of today's closers, at least in the post season, however he isn't racing ahead of any of the other all timers.

LOL. Dude, one of those BS's was in game 5 of the ALCS in 2004. When he came on with one out with runners on 1st and 3rd and gave up a sac fly.

Still, Quisenberry, Wilhelm, Tekulve, and Marshall not on the poll? That's lame.

LOL. Dude, one of those BS's was in game 5 of the ALCS in 2004. When he came on with one out with runners on 1st and 3rd and gave up a sac fly.

Still, Quisenberry, Wilhelm, Tekulve, and Marshall not on the poll? That's lame.

he still went on to lose the game though the next inning, or was he pulled after the 9th? I can't remember entirely.