Will the Jays trade McGowan or just let him go on waivers in off season?

wildone26*
08-11-2006, 02:48 PM
The very overhyped Dustin McGowan is out of options after this year, so the Jays have two options:

1)Lose him on waivers for nothing
2)Trade him before training camp opens next April

Which do you think they will do?

ComrieFanatic
08-11-2006, 03:54 PM
Can they not just resign him? I dont think anyone has given him a chance to prove his potential yet. We dont want another Carpenter/Young incident.

wildone26*
08-11-2006, 04:17 PM
I dont know of any provision where they can re-sign him unless you do. I am pretty sure there is no alternative but to trade him before the deadline or let him go on waivers before the season opens next year.


Anyway he serves no purpose for the team in the next 3-5 years. League and Accardo are the set up guys, and are both young, younger then McGowan. B.J Ryan is the closer for the next 4+ years. Middle relievers, well they have plenty of those. They have Halladay, Chacin, and Burnett locked up as starter for awhile, possably Lily resigning, if not a multi-year deal for a free agent likely, and Marcum established as a MLB quality starter, and perhaps Janssen or Taubenheim. Also he has been surpassed already by pitchers his own age or younger like Janssen, Marcum, Taubenheim, League, Accardo who has now come over. All those pitchers have blown past him this year. I am glad he is gone one way or the other to be honest.

Transplanted Caper
08-11-2006, 07:55 PM
Unless he really stinks it up next spring he'll be in the #5 spot in the rotation.

ATG
08-11-2006, 09:47 PM
Unless he really stinks it up next spring he'll be in the #5 spot in the rotation.

:teach:

wildone26*
08-11-2006, 09:59 PM
Unless he really stinks it up next spring he'll be in the #5 spot in the rotation.


It is good to see a sense of humour. McGowan in the starting rotation next year :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: .

BuppY
08-12-2006, 03:20 AM
It is good to see a sense of humour. McGowan in the starting rotation next year :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh: .

dude stop hating. this is a Joke. :shakehead

Zetterberg4Captain*
08-12-2006, 05:05 AM
Just wondering but are you flying27 from BBF? Tell the truth now.

Dark Knight
08-12-2006, 08:52 AM
I hope he really puts it together. The guy has sick stuff. I'd love to see him in the rotation next year.

wildone26*
08-12-2006, 12:44 PM
Just wondering but are you flying27 from BBF? Tell the truth now.


No I am not flying27 anywhere and what is BBF? Is that another hockey forum, is it good?

wildone26*
08-12-2006, 12:45 PM
dude stop hating. this is a Joke. :shakehead


I am not hating. Since the Blue Jays have two options what to do with a player they are forced to get rid of one way or the other, I am curious to which one people think is the better idea.

Transplanted Caper
08-12-2006, 01:00 PM
I am not hating. Since the Blue Jays have two options what to do with a player they are forced to get rid of one way or the other, I am curious to which one people think is the better idea.

They're out of options in terms of having him in Syracuse. If he cracks the roster out of camp he's fine. With Speir,Schowenweiss and Lilly all likely gone, McGowan should either be able to take the #5 spot in the rotation or play in the bullpen

wildone26*
08-12-2006, 01:13 PM
They're out of options in terms of having him in Syracuse. If he cracks the roster out of camp he's fine. With Speir,Schowenweiss and Lilly all likely gone, McGowan should either be able to take the #5 spot in the rotation or play in the bullpen

Which is exactly what I said the only options are to let him go on waivers or trade him in the off season. The fact that making the team out of camp is not realistic at all for him.

BuppY
08-12-2006, 01:26 PM
Which is exactly what I said the only options are to let him go on waivers or trade him in the off season. The fact that making the team out of camp is not realistic at all for him.

how is it not realistic?

He's a better pitcher then Casey Jenssen, David Purcey, Josh Banks. From all their younger arms he'll be the most ready and has the highest potential. He will be given every opportunity to crack the lineup.

wildone26*
08-12-2006, 01:39 PM
how is it not realistic?

He's a better pitcher then Casey Jenssen, David Purcey, Josh Banks. From all their younger arms he'll be the most ready and has the highest potential. He will be given every opportunity to crack the lineup.

Well generaly there are 5 starting spots and 7 bullpen spots(including closer) starting the year out. Everyone might have their own way of breaking it down but it would probably be something like this:

Starting spots-Halladay, Burnett, Chacin for sure. That is 3 of 5. Possably Lily resigning, Marcum probably, possably a free agent especialy if Lily does not resign, possably Taubenheim. You also cant forget Janssen who was very good as a starter for a rookie pitcher this year. Also realisticaly they gave him only 1 start this year, they gave Marcum, Janssen, and Taubenheim many many starts. They yanked McGowan after only 1 start, and went to Rosario, then went to replacement starter/bullpen guy Downs for the last start before Chacin returns. So there is zero inidcation of McGowan being used as a starter next year when they dont even have confident to start him now with the current horrendous pitching situation; and they have shown they would much rather start all of Janssen, Taubenheim, and Marcum then him.

Bullpen spots-B.J Ryan is the closer. Accardo and League for sure there next year.
Downs there. 4 spots of 7 already filled. Walker and Tallet probably there. Frasor could be there. One of Speier or Scotty could resign, although probably not both. If Janssen or Taubenheim dont make the rotation one of them could be there. Rosario could be in the pen as well. Possability of a free agent signing or two here.

So I hugely doubt McGowan cracking the lineup to start next year since when you break it down there isnt really room for him in the rotation or the pen. Being above Purcey and Banks certainly means nothing as far as him making the team as you can see.

Yes Im Peter Ing
08-12-2006, 09:56 PM
wildone,

Are there any boards on the internet where you don't tow this line?

Scout
HF
Sportsnet
BJW

Seriously. Enough.

wildone26*
08-12-2006, 10:47 PM
wildone,

Are there any boards on the internet where you don't tow this line?

Scout
HF
Sportsnet
BJW

Seriously. Enough.

I dont know even know what BJW is for starters, so you dont know what you are talking about.

Anyway your quote on another thread- As far as ceiling goes McGowan is by far the organization's best prospect. about the same pitcher who is less then a year from being gone from the organization shows an extreme personal bias on your part. I wonder how many people on other teams refer to a player in any position, who is certain to be gone from the team in less then a year, as their best prospect for the future.

Yes Im Peter Ing
08-12-2006, 11:06 PM
I dont know even know what BJW is for starters, so you dont know what you are talking about.

Anyway your quote on another thread- As far as ceiling goes McGowan is by far the organization's best prospect. about the same pitcher who is less then a year from being gone from the organization shows an extreme personal bias on your part. I wonder how many people on other teams refer to a player in any position, who is certain to be gone from the team in less then a year, as their best prospect for the future.

Because I don't agree wtih you means I harbour some type of bias? What's that say about the multitudes of posters, on this board and others, who have taken your delusional rants to task? Are they biased to? Are you the only one out of dozens who can see the light?

wildone26*
08-12-2006, 11:19 PM
Because I don't agree wtih you means I harbour some type of bias? What's that say about the multitudes of posters, on this board and others, who have taken your delusional rants to task? Are they biased to? Are you the only one out of dozens who can see the light?

Actually many people do think McGowan is gone after this year as some also think he is staying(those who probably dont even realize MLB teams only carry 12, occasionaly 13, pitchers mind you), and even many of those who dont like my constant dissing of him still also concede he is gone from the organization after this year, despite their gripes. If you think I am the only one("only one out of dozens" as you put it) who thinks McG is gone for nothing after this year you are very mistaken.


For the record though if I were the only one who believed a pitcher who is gone from the organization within a year is not their best prospect, then yes indeed I would be the one who saw the light. It is not typical for any team to regard somebody who is gone from their organization within a year as the best prospect for the future. I am unaware of how that is a realistic concept. Perhaps I will ask a Red Sox or Yankee fan if they believe their best prospect is somebody almost certainly gone from the organization within a year.

Yes Im Peter Ing
08-13-2006, 01:39 AM
People agree with you? That's news to me. Whether it's here, the official board, scout, wherever, the reaction is always the same.

It's cute the way you pose every question on the issue, always assuming that McGowan is gone, forcing anyone with an opinion to accept your view.

Answer me this. If JP intends on cutting the team's ties with McGowan before next year, why in the world would he reject Tampa's offers of Lugo for McGowan? Time and time again it was reported that the talks stopped the second McGowan's name was brought up. The same is true for the talks that were reported to have taken place during the offseason. In fact, it was reported that McGowan was on JP's no-trade list. Even if the Lugo talks never took place, do you really see JP cutting ties with McGowan for no return if only a year ago he was considered unmoveable? And if McGowan's stock has dropped that much in less than a year's time, why not move him for Lugo? Heck, why not move him for a C prospect, since you seem to figure he'll be gone for nothing before next April...

wildone26*
08-13-2006, 11:20 AM
People agree with you? That's news to me. Whether it's here, the official board, scout, wherever, the reaction is always the same.

If you think I am the only one who believes McGowan is out of Toronto by April, some way or the other, then you have a reading comprehension problem. Many people when putting their pitching teams together for next year dont include him which is automaticaly saying he is gone anyway, given the out of options situation.


It's cute the way you pose every question on the issue, always assuming that McGowan is gone, forcing anyone with an opinion to accept your view.

Well I understand there are only 12 pitchers on a MLB roster to start a year, occasionaly 13. I am aware there could be people that are confused and think there are 18 to 20, which could be the case for people that think McGowan will make the team out of camp next year to stay on the team.

Answer me this. If JP intends on cutting the team's ties with McGowan before next year, why in the world would he reject Tampa's offers of Lugo for McGowan? Time and time again it was reported that the talks stopped the second McGowan's name was brought up. The same is true for the talks that were reported to have taken place during the offseason. In fact, it was reported that McGowan was on JP's no-trade list. Even if the Lugo talks never took place, do you really see JP cutting ties with McGowan for no return if only a year ago he was considered unmoveable? And if McGowan's stock has dropped that much in less than a year's time, why not move him for Lugo? Heck, why not move him for a C prospect, since you seem to figure he'll be gone for nothing before next April...

I dont know what JP thinks of course, I can only surmise just like you. Basicaly I have found him a pretty bad GM, worse then Ashe(in fact he is benefiting from alot of the players Ashe acquired to still have a decent team) and worse then the ones before that. I have no idea why he is even still around. His Burnett and Towers signings this year proved to be a bust. Many of his past decisions didnt make sense to me either, so of course keeping a pitcher he was going lose on waivers for nothing would not make sense to me, but since alot of things he has done havent to me either, I dont use that as an automatic proving of anything. Also there is the possability he is hoping for a better trade offer in the off season then the ones he was getting at the trade deadline. He was being asked for McGowan AND Accardo in the trade for Lugo, not just McGowan remember. Accardo, unlike McGowan, is a key part of the team for next year and the future, so maybe he just did not want to lose him, and quite possably he is hoping for a better offer for McGowan in the off season.

All I know is even when the team was desperate for a starter they did not want to bring McGowan up. Janssen came up while McGowan was a reliever, but then it was Taubenheim, and Taubenheim stayed there even while struggling big time, then it was Marcum, and when it was McGowan coming up he was yanked after only 1 start because he struggled a bit, but Taubenheim who also struggled big time was left in for 8 starts. What does that tell you about his place with JP compared to those others? Now out of the bullpen with the big team he is playing a very bit role, called upon far less often then both League and Accardo are.
There is every reason to believe ALL those guys are above him in his pecking order right now, so seeing JP putting him on the team next year is hard for me to see.

Yes Im Peter Ing
08-13-2006, 04:49 PM
If you think I am the only one who believes McGowan is out of Toronto by April, some way or the other, then you have a reading comprehension problem. Many people when putting their pitching teams together for next year dont include him which is automaticaly saying he is gone anyway, given the out of options situation.


If by many you mean yourself as registered under a number of different nicknames, then yes I agree, many people do leave him off next year's theoretical roster.




Well I understand there are only 12 pitchers on a MLB roster to start a year, occasionaly 13. I am aware there could be people that are confused and think there are 18 to 20, which could be the case for people that think McGowan will make the team out of camp next year to stay on the team.


I think these people understand the regulations of MLB rosters quite well. I also think they understand that giving up on McGowan would mean cutting loose a pitcher with a high ceiling who we have control over for a long time to come.



I dont know what JP thinks of course, I can only surmise just like you. Basicaly I have found him a pretty bad GM, worse then Ashe(in fact he is benefiting from alot of the players Ashe acquired to still have a decent team) and worse then the ones before that. I have no idea why he is even still around. His Burnett and Towers signings this year proved to be a bust. Many of his past decisions didnt make sense to me either, so of course keeping a pitcher he was going lose on waivers for nothing would not make sense to me, but since alot of things he has done havent to me either, I dont use that as an automatic proving of anything. Also there is the possability he is hoping for a better trade offer in the off season then the ones he was getting at the trade deadline. He was being asked for McGowan AND Accardo in the trade for Lugo, not just McGowan remember. Accardo, unlike McGowan, is a key part of the team for next year and the future, so maybe he just did not want to lose him, and quite possably he is hoping for a better offer for McGowan in the off season.


Why would he wait for a better offer if he sees McGowan as a lost cause? To do that he'd have to assume McGowan's stock is still high in the eyes of other GMs. We both know you don't believe that.

And can you prove that somehow McGowan was merely a throw-in in a deal revoling around Accardo? Again, McGowan was on JP's no-trade list last year at a time when he was actively assembling a contender at the cost of his farm system. I find it unlikely that McGowan's value has fallen so much that he's gone from an untouchable to a non-entity.Every article I've read has suggested that Ricciardi was unwilling to deal any one of his three young stud arms - McGowan, League, Accardo. Can you find me one article - just one - where it states that Accardo was the centrepiece?




All I know is even when the team was desperate for a starter they did not want to bring McGowan up. Janssen came up while McGowan was a reliever, but then it was Taubenheim, and Taubenheim stayed there even while struggling big time, then it was Marcum, and when it was McGowan coming up he was yanked after only 1 start because he struggled a bit, but Taubenheim who also struggled big time was left in for 8 starts. What does that tell you about his place with JP compared to those others? Now out of the bullpen with the big team he is playing a very bit role, called upon far less often then both League and Accardo are.
There is every reason to believe ALL those guys are above him in his pecking order right now, so seeing JP putting him on the team next year is hard for me to see.

Janssen and Taubenheim all came up while McGowan was making the transition from the pen to the starting rotation. Have you never heard of stretching a pitcher's arm out? I know you have because it was brought up time and time again on scout. Did you forget, or are you purposely ignoring the inconvenience that are facts?

Fish on The Sand
08-13-2006, 04:59 PM
what exactly does it mean when a guy is out of options? I have never heard this term before this year.

Yes Im Peter Ing
08-13-2006, 05:02 PM
what exactly does it mean when a guy is out of options? I have never heard this term before this year.

It means he can no longer be sent to the minors without going through waivers. In the case of a prospect like McGowan, this would almost certainly lead to him being picked up by another team.

Fish on The Sand
08-13-2006, 05:11 PM
It means he can no longer be sent to the minors without going through waivers. In the case of a prospect like McGowan, this would almost certainly lead to him being picked up by another team.

oh I see. I was wondering because Jeremy Guthrie is out of options after this yar and he would most certainly be picked up as well.

Roughneck
08-13-2006, 05:14 PM
I dont know what JP thinks of course, I can only surmise just like you. Basicaly I have found him a pretty bad GM, worse then Ashe(in fact he is benefiting from alot of the players Ashe acquired to still have a decent team) and worse then the ones before that. I have no idea why he is even still around.

Glaus, Overbay, Ryan, Hill, Catalanotto, Lilly.....

wildone26*
08-13-2006, 06:30 PM
Glaus, Overbay, Ryan, Hill, Catalanotto, Lilly.....

So he got some good people, any GM would be capable of getting some good players. He gets far more unworthy players signed to undeserving contracts then Ash did, or some other GMs around the league do. Burnett was an obvious bad choice from the start, a pitch with a career sub-.500 record, who is injury prone, locked up to 9-million a year for 5 years. You cant give a 29-year old pitcher a long-term contract based on "potential" not yet converted to the actual playing, atleast it was never smart to. Towers should have been signed to a 2-way contract to start the year, he should have started the year with the big team, but not put such faith in that they were stuck with certainty paying a major league salary. Of course his decision to trade away Jackson and Bush(and Gross, although he wasnt as important)to keep McGowan, a pitcher almost certain to either be gone on waivers or given away for a lesser deal then the intial one. His decision not to recognize the ship sinking with Hinske sooner then he did and trade him. The overpayment to get Corey Koskie last year, when if you were commited to playing Hinske, there was not that big a difference between Hinske and Koskie at 3rd base anyway so it was not worth the big contract, which of course he was forced to eat up alot of after this year and pay even more of it.

wildone26*
08-13-2006, 06:55 PM
If by many you mean yourself as registered under a number of different nicknames, then yes I agree, many people do leave him off next year's theoretical roster.

Sorry I do not log in under 7 or 8 different nicknames on each forum you think I post on, if that is what you mean, and for nobody else to have excluded him from their predicted roster, of next year, that would have to be what happens. Maybe you should read more of the forums before coming to wrong conclusions.


I think these people understand the regulations of MLB rosters quite well. I also think they understand that giving up on McGowan would mean cutting loose a pitcher with a high ceiling who we have control over for a long time to come.

Then they also havent thought through how McGowan would be able to crack a 12-man roster to start next year, especialy when he found it almost impossable to crack a pitching roster plagued by injuries and horrendous performance this year. Even in a year with massive injuries and substantial underperformance by several, and huge holes almost all year in the rotation and bullpen alike, he was given only 1 start, and only about 4 weeks total in the majors, with bit work in the bullpen the rest of the time. In a year where rookies Janssen, Taubenheim, Marcum, and League are all playing key roles on the team due largely out of desperation of the team to fill gaping holes caused by injuries, McGowan has been still a virtual non-existant. Yet in only 8months he will have miraceously improved enough to "start" a year with a much healthier stronger pitching staff(you know it will be alot stronger to start next year then it has been the last 3 months with all the injury problems). I find that hard to believe personally.

Put another way, 12 pitching spots to start next year. Halladay(1), Burnett(2), Chacin(3), Downs(4), Ryan(5), League(6), Accardo(7), Tallet(8), Frasor(9), Marcum(10), Janssen(11), Taubenheim(12), possably 2 of Walkers/Speier/Scotty/Lily(13 and 14), Rosario who is also out of options(15), atleast 1 free agent probably(16). So there are likely atleast 16 pitchers that would be taken over him, and only 12 pitching spots, thus the problem he would face to avoid waivers if JP hasnt already traded him in the off season.


Why would he wait for a better offer if he sees McGowan as a lost cause? To do that he'd have to assume McGowan's stock is still high in the eyes of other GMs. We both know you don't believe that.

The fact he is getting any interest from anybody in him, which you yourself said there is according to reports, would be encouragement. Remember there are 30 GMs in the league, you only have to impress between 1-3 of them to get a deal that is worthwhile, it does not neccessarily mean you impress a high number of them. A player like McG could not help any good team, with playoff hopes, this year, as has been shown he is obviously too weak to even help the Jays injury-befuddled lineup this year. However a team with weak enough pitching might feel they can have him on their roster next year, and believe he might develop into a bigger asset in the future. So the deals for an offer for McG are likely to be alot better in the off season anyway, then during the season itself. Since he was offered Overbay for McG in this past off season, and that dropped to a joint deal with Accardo for an ordinary middle infielder like Lugo, I can understand thinking the better deals are likely to be in the off season anyway.

Anyway I told you I dont think JP is a good GM anyway so I dont assume everything he might do is going to make sense. I miss Ash who was so superior to him, and I often wish some of the other GMs around the league were the Toronto GM instead of JP.



And can you prove that somehow McGowan was merely a throw-in in a deal revoling around Accardo?

I cant prove he was, you cant prove he wasnt either. Since I believe Accardo is far more talented then McGowan I would tend to think it was more about Accardo, you can believe otherwise if you wish. The fact is because it was a deal for him and Accardo, one cant use it any kind of example for a deal directly for McGowan.

Again, McGowan was on JP's no-trade list last year at a time when he was actively assembling a contender at the cost of his farm system. I find it unlikely that McGowan's value has fallen so much that he's gone from an untouchable to a non-entity.

Quite easily that much could have changed by then. Since the start of the year he has been surpassed by all of Janssen, Taubenheim, Marcum, League, and the incoming Accardo.


Janssen and Taubenheim all came up while McGowan was making the transition from the pen to the starting rotation. Have you never heard of stretching a pitcher's arm out? I know you have because it was brought up time and time again on scout. Did you forget, or are you purposely ignoring the inconvenience that are facts?

That makes sense. However that would still not explain why Taubenheim was left in for 8 starts, even though he was struggling, while after McGowan struggled for only 1 start they instantly yanked him from the rotation instead of giving him another chance while Ty earlier in the year continued to get so many more. They were not even willing to give him the 2 more starts until Chacin came back, yet Ty was left in many times over while he continued to perform extremely subpar. That is telling. Also Marcum went back to the rotation later then McGowan and still managed to pass McGowan in the starters pecking order as well.

Roughneck
08-13-2006, 10:30 PM
So he got some good people, any GM would be capable of getting some good players.

You'd think so wouldn't you. But if this were true, every team would be a good team.

He gets far more unworthy players signed to undeserving contracts then Ash did, or some other GMs around the league do. Burnett was an obvious bad choice from the start, a pitch with a career sub-.500 record, who is injury prone, locked up to 9-million a year for 5 years. You cant give a 29-year old pitcher a long-term contract based on "potential" not yet converted to the actual playing, atleast it was never smart to.

Everybody questioned the money and the years, but to think Riccardi is the only GM to offer obscene amounts of money to average players (pitchers especially) despite being injury prone is just downright stupid (and "hatin").

A 9 million dollar .500 pitcher is better than trading away a 20 game winner for a pitcher who wouldn't ever play another major league game.

Towers should have been signed to a 2-way contract to start the year, he should have started the year with the big team, but not put such faith in that they were stuck with certainty paying a major league salary.

He was a .500 5th starter, why would he have accepted a two-way contract?

Of course his decision to trade away Jackson and Bush(and Gross, although he wasnt as important)to keep McGowan, a pitcher almost certain to either be gone on waivers or given away for a lesser deal then the intial one. His decision not to recognize the ship sinking with Hinske sooner then he did and trade him. The overpayment to get Corey Koskie last year, when if you were commited to playing Hinske, there was not that big a difference between Hinske and Koskie at 3rd base anyway so it was not worth the big contract, which of course he was forced to eat up alot of after this year and pay even more of it.

If these are the biggest mistkaes Riccardi has made, then you are way to fickle. Especially since the sinking ship isn't even starting anymore.

wildone26*
08-13-2006, 10:47 PM
You'd think so wouldn't you. But if this were true, every team would be a good team.

The Jays since JP took over the team has alternated from being "good" some years, and being "mediocre" other years, and being "playoff" no years. While this season is not over yet it seems likeliest to fall in the "good" category this year, but not the "playoff" one.


Everybody questioned the money and the years, but to think Riccardi is the only GM to offer obscene amounts of money to average players (pitchers especially) despite being injury prone is just downright stupid (and "hatin").

He isnt the only one, but on the other hand there are still many ones that are smart enough to not offer obscene amounts of money to average players, atleast not to the extent as often as JP does. Just because he is not the only one in the whole league, does not make him worthy of praise, sorry.

A 9 million dollar .500 pitcher is better than trading away a 20 game winner for a pitcher who wouldn't ever play another major league game.

So you cut him slack for doing such dumb things, just for the fact there are even more glaring cases of idiocy? :biglaugh:

He was a .500 5th starter, why would he have accepted a two-way contract?

He had been on a 2-way contract every year in his career until now. I dont see why that would be so hard for him to come to grips with.

If these are the biggest mistkaes Riccardi has made, then you are way to fickle. Especially since the sinking ship isn't even starting anymore.

I dont know if you are referring to Towers or Hinske, but they are still with the team getting payed big bucks to play in the minors or start occasional games and come off the bench. As for one saying nothing could have been done on Hinske, as I said he was still tradeable up until the middle of last year, and by then it should have been obvious it was a must do, in fact it was obvious by the start of last season(2005). Koskie was also a hugely unneccessary expense last year, and if Hinske indeed was invaluable enough, or not worth putting enough faith to get back on track on, that it was worth to move away from his natural position(3rd base)to make room for a pretty good but not great player at an very inflated salary, there was no point not trading Hinske at that point anyway. To suggest little enough faith or value in Hinske to do that in the first place, and yet not trade him all the same is very conflicting logic. If those are the worst things, then saying that GM is perhaps one you dont think is that good, and who makes some decisions that can make no sense whatsoever, is being fickle you say? Hogwash and Bull! He likely is not the worst in the entire league, but there are many GMs in the league who would not have made that many dumb decisions in the span of only a couple years. I am well within reason to say he is not neccessarily a good GM, or alteast in my eyes he is not, and that one does not have to make sense of something he could do, to assume he would never do it.

BuppY
08-13-2006, 10:51 PM
Why McGowan is in the Majors is beyond me, He should have remained in triple A so he could work on his control and command. He is just being wasted right now. A pitcher of his calibur you work with him and keep working till you can get him to improve his control. Him being in the Bullpen is not the way to go. I was against it from day one. I think J.P rushed him last year and this messed up at the start of the year by putting him in the pen.

Roughneck
08-13-2006, 11:25 PM
The Jays since JP took over the team has alternated from being "good" some years, and being "mediocre" other years, and being "playoff" no years. While this season is not over yet it seems likeliest to fall in the "good" category this year, but not the "playoff" one.

And with Ash even finding a 'good' season is tough. This year has shown the Jays are actually in a realistic position to make a push, they are basically one mid-rotation pitcer away from the playoffs in a division with the two highest payroll teams in baseball.

I'm not so much miffed that you're criticising Riccardi, its that you are saying Ash was better.


He isnt the only one, but on the other hand there are still many ones that are smart enough to not offer obscene amounts of money to average players, atleast not to the extent as often as JP does. Just because he is not the only one in the whole league, does not make him worthy of praise, sorry.

So you've got Burnett and.............

So you cut him slack for doing such dumb things, just for the fact there are even more glaring cases of idiocy? :biglaugh:

Again, this was a case of praising Ash and criticizing Riccardi.

He had been on a 2-way contract every year in his career until now. I dont see why that would be so hard for him to come to grips with.

Because he clearly earned a major league contract. If you put up a .500 season in the bigs, why would you accept a deal that could have you earning a fraction of what the market commands?

As for one saying nothing could have been done on Hinske, as I said he was still tradeable up until the middle of last year, and by then it should have been obvious it was a must do, in fact it was obvious by the start of last season(2005).

Tradeable for what? a minor leaguer? Hinske is still tradeable now if you are willing to eat up the contract and get little in return, bu the fact is he is proabbly better than anything he could command in a trade and considering the Jays would more than likely have to eat up a chunk of the salary as well it just wouldn't be a good baseball move.

Koskie was also a hugely unneccessary expense last year, and if Hinske indeed was invaluable enough, or not worth putting enough faith to get back on track on, that it was worth to move away from his natural position(3rd base)to make room for a pretty good but not great player at an very inflated salary, there was no point not trading Hinske at that point anyway.

The team was handcuffed that year, the amount of players available that could replace Delgado weren't there, and there were even fewer quality players who would have been willing to come to Toronto. JP believed Koskie was as good as they were going to get and that meant moving Hinske. Its not like his defensive presence was going to be missed.

To suggest little enough faith or value in Hinske to do that in the first place, and yet not trade him all the same is very conflicting logic.

He switched corners, he didn't lose a spot in the lineup.


If those are the worst things, then saying that GM is perhaps one you dont think is that good, and who makes some decisions that can make no sense whatsoever, is being fickle you say? Hogwash and Bull! He likely is not the worst in the entire league, but there are many GMs in the league who would not have made that many dumb decisions in the span of only a couple years.

Any GM, who makes as many outreageous decisions as you say he does, and still manage to get them in the division hunt in a very competetive division shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence of worst in the entire league. The team is poised to have its best finish since the glory days, and he is a bad GM? All I can say is Hogwash and Bull!

I am well within reason to say he is not neccessarily a good GM, or alteast in my eyes he is not, and that one does not have to make sense of something he could do, to assume he would never do it.

You didn't just say he wasn't a good GM, you said he was the worst in Blue Jay history, that he is riding on the coattails of Ash, it is one to say he isn't a good GM, it is anoter to take it to the radical views you do. You brought up three players which basically make JP a terrible GM in your eyes. Are you Gord Ash's son or something?

Yes Im Peter Ing
08-16-2006, 11:08 PM
The fact he is getting any interest from anybody in him, which you yourself said there is according to reports, would be encouragement. Remember there are 30 GMs in the league, you only have to impress between 1-3 of them to get a deal that is worthwhile, it does not neccessarily mean you impress a high number of them.


How convenient. JP was just asked on "Wednesdays With JP" if McGowan's name came up a lot in talks prior to the deadline. JP's answer: 'he's always the name that is brought up.' And before you jump the gun, he was referring to the other GMs, not himself.

On the topic of McGowan's future with the club, JP said that he still really likes McGowan and that the team wants him around for a while, but he did add that being out of options, McGowan is at a critical phase in his career and will have to pitch his way onto next year's team. JP phrased the issue as being between McGowan making the team and the Jays trading him. Not surprisingly, letting him go for nothing on waivers did not enter into the discussion.

wildone26*
08-16-2006, 11:17 PM
How convenient. JP was just asked on "Wednesdays With JP" if McGowan's name came up a lot in talks prior to the deadline. JP's answer: 'he's always the name that is brought up.' And before you jump the gun, he was referring to the other GMs, not himself.

On the topic of McGowan's future with the club, JP said that he still really likes McGowan and that the team wants him around for a while, but he did add that being out of options, McGowan is at a critical phase in his career and will have to pitch his way onto next year's team. JP phrased the issue as being between McGowan making the team and the Jays trading him. Not surprisingly, letting him go for nothing on waivers did not enter into the discussion.

It seems like he is coming to the realization McGowan is not going to be good enough to make next years team though having been blown past by pitchers his own age or younger like Janssen, Taubenheim, Marcum, and League, who have all passed him by this year. Thus he has come to grips with the reality trading him is what he must do, as losing him on waivers for nothing would be unacceptable.

I am glad he is coming to that realization and is going to set his sights on trading him as oppose to losing him on waivers for nothing. I am also glad McGowan is gone from the Jays organization sometime in the off season via trade. Thank you for the information.

Yes Im Peter Ing
08-16-2006, 11:22 PM
It seems like he is coming to the realization McGowan is not going to be good enough to make next years team though having been blown past by pitchers his own age or younger like Janssen, Taubenheim, Marcum, and League, who have all passed him by this year. Thus he has come to grips with the reality trading him is what he must do, as losing him on waivers for nothing would be unacceptable.

I am glad he is coming to that realization and is going to set his sights on trading him as oppose to losing him on waivers for nothing. I am also glad McGowan is gone from the Jays organization sometime in the off season via trade. Thank you for the information.

Holy selective reading, Batman!!!

wildone26*
08-16-2006, 11:26 PM
Holy selective reading, Batman!!!

Even if he were capable of doing it with his current abilities as a pitcher(and he isnt)he would not be able to pitch his way onto next years team by pitching only about 1 inning a week in his current role on the team. Sorry. Training camp is too late to trade somebody so the decision would have been made by the end of this season.

Yes Im Peter Ing
08-16-2006, 11:33 PM
Even if he were capable of doing it with his current abilities as a pitcher(and he isnt)he would not be able to pitch his way onto next years team by pitching only about 1 inning a week in his current role on the team. Sorry. Training camp is too late to trade somebody so the decision would have been made by the end of this season.

Really? Why's that? McGowan has struggled to find his control this year, but by JP's own words, that has hardly affected other GM's interest in him. If there's a strong demand for McGowan at this point, despite his struggles, why would it be any different in late March/April?

wildone26*
08-16-2006, 11:41 PM
Really? Why's that? McGowan has struggled to find his control this year, but by JP's own words, that has hardly affected other GM's interest in him. If there's a strong demand for McGowan at this point, despite his struggles, why would it be any different in late March/April?


It is much safer to do it before then, you know that. I am just glad to hear JP is open to trading him, and realizes that is so much better then losing him on waivers, and will end up trading him.

Yes Im Peter Ing
08-16-2006, 11:45 PM
It is much safer to do it before then, you know that. I am just glad to hear JP is open to trading him, and realizes that is so much better then losing him on waivers, and will end up trading him.

No, I don't know that. I think in the case of a talented young pitcher like McGowan, one who your team has control over for the next while, it is much safer to give him as much time as possible to prove his worth before finally cutting your ties.

wildone26*
08-16-2006, 11:52 PM
No, I don't know that. I think in the case of a talented young pitcher like McGowan, one who your team has control over for the next while, it is much safer to give him as much time as possible to prove his worth before finally cutting your ties.


First of all it is just so obvious now there will be no room for him on next years team if you think about.

Starting pitchers-Halladay, Burnett, Chacin, Marcum definitely over him, probably a free agent and/or Lily, Janssen a possability

Bullpen pitchers-Ryan, Accardo, Downs, League, probably atleast one free agent(
or was that player to be revealed later in the Scott trade another reliever, I am guessing it might well be), Walker over him if he continues, Tallet over him, Frasor over him, Taubenheim and Rosario(also out of options)similar possabilities.

So with 5 starting spots and 7 bullpen spots it would be near impossable to see him on the team already, there just isnt the room. If you think there is then you can tell me how you see room for him on the team when being realistic and looking at the spots available, and to what they are likely to pick up next year.




So yes the extra time waiting is really a waste of time, making the best possable trade that much harder for nothing. Yes I do believe it makes things alot harder to try to trade that late. Teams then KNOW you are more deserpate to trade that player, as they are approaching the waiver deadline. They will be more stingy in their offers then they would have been in the off season before training camp.

Yes Im Peter Ing
08-17-2006, 12:30 AM
Tallet, Taubenheim, Downs, Rosario (although not likely), Frasor, Walker and Janssen are all liable to be knocked off the roster by McGowan.

DocHolliday
08-17-2006, 03:35 PM
First of all it is just so obvious now there will be no room for him on next years team if you think about.

Walker over him if he continues,
.


Why are people writing Walker back into the pen next year? I would be utterly shocked if he's back. He'll be 37 or 38, and missed most of this year. As you've said, we have guys like McGowan and Rosario that we might lose for nothing. Walker won't be back.

wildone26*
08-17-2006, 08:06 PM
Why are people writing Walker back into the pen next year? I would be utterly shocked if he's back. He'll be 37 or 38, and missed most of this year. As you've said, we have guys like McGowan and Rosario that we might lose for nothing. Walker won't be back.

We will see I guess. I think the value of he and Downs is they can also spot start, as well as relieve.

BuppY
08-18-2006, 02:46 PM
We will see I guess. I think the value of he and Downs is they can also spot start, as well as relieve.

So can McGowan.

DocHolliday
08-18-2006, 03:31 PM
We will see I guess. I think the value of he and Downs is they can also spot start, as well as relieve.

So can McGowan, Rosario, Marcum, Tallet and Taubenheim. I wouldn't be shocked to see Downs gone either as we have some youth to fill his spot.

wildone26*
08-24-2006, 10:38 AM
Funnily enough McGowan has been sent to the minors to make room for Davis Romero to stay in the team. I guess we can now even add Romero to the list of pitchers McGowan is below. :biglaugh:

So now for McGowan to make the 12-man roster next year and stay with the Jays organizatin lets see how many guys need to get injured during training camp, when it is too late to pick up a free agent:

Halladay
Burnett
Chacin
Marcum
Janssen
Taubenheim
Ryan
League
Accardo
Tallet
Downs
Walker
Romero
Frasor
free agent starter
free agent reliever


Awww so we now have 16 people over him, even if they let Rosario go. So that means 5 people have to be injured during training camp for him to remain with the organization. Good luck.

BuppY
08-24-2006, 03:39 PM
Hey Wildone, how about I bet you 500 Vcash he will be with the Jays start of next year.

wildone26*
08-25-2006, 11:53 AM
Hey Wildone, how about I bet you 500 Vcash he will be with the Jays start of next year.


You think I am going to trust a complete stranger is actually going to pay me if won the bet? :biglaugh: :biglaugh: I have made bets before but for less money with people I had talked to some before usually who I honestly think will pay if I win.

For the record McGowan was sent down to AAA to relieve, not even to start.

BuppY
08-25-2006, 12:51 PM
You think I am going to trust a complete stranger is actually going to pay me if won the bet? :biglaugh: :biglaugh: I have made bets before but for less money with people I had talked to some before usually who I honestly think will pay if I win.

For the record McGowan was sent down to AAA to relieve, not even to start.

I know that. Jays management has screwed McGowan this year, right from the start.

wildone26*
08-25-2006, 01:52 PM
I know that. Jays management has screwed McGowan this year, right from the start.


Whether or not I agree with you on that, lets say for arguments sake you are exactly right on that. If you believe that is the case, what makes you think they are wanting him to be with the team next year? Why would they screw around with somebody that they want to be with the team next year? What are they gaining by doing that.

BuppY
08-25-2006, 03:29 PM
Whether or not I agree with you on that, lets say for arguments sake you are exactly right on that. If you believe that is the case, what makes you think they are wanting him to be with the team next year? Why would they screw around with somebody that they want to be with the team next year? What are they gaining by doing that.

They seem to be confused, as to whether use him as a Starter or in the Pen. He was pitching well as a starter in the Triple A and was started to get better, then he got one start in the majors looked great first 3 innings, and a avg 4th inning and kind of lost it in the 5th. They then put him back in the pen rather then sending him down so he could work on his game. Right now what he lacks is confidence in his stuff. It seems when he puts a runner on he tends to fall behind to the next hitter, then on a 3-1 count he is forced to throw a strike, and hitter is just waiting for it, he knows it's coming. Thats the problem he needs to get confidence in his curve ball, changeup, and slider. When he's on he can throw all 3 of them for strike but it's his lack of command whats hurting him.

wildone26*
09-21-2006, 03:50 PM
Now only 200 days away from finding out. Either way he is gone and that is the best part. :biglaugh:

Free Torts
09-21-2006, 04:41 PM
Now only 200 days away from finding out. Either way he is gone and that is the best part. :biglaugh:
You've got a real sick fixation with McGowan.

Fish on The Sand
09-21-2006, 04:49 PM
You've got a real sick fixation with McGowan.

he does, but the point remains Mcgowan sucks and will be gone. In fact, I think he could clear waivers.

wildone26*
09-21-2006, 05:57 PM
he does, but the point remains Mcgowan sucks and will be gone. In fact, I think he could clear waivers.

I think the vast majority teams would pass on him but you always have those most desperate-like the Kansas City Royals who would pick up anything that moves.

Fish on The Sand
09-22-2006, 04:44 PM
I think the vast majority teams would pass on him but you always have those most desperate-like the Kansas City Royals who would pick up anything that moves.

that is true, and that is also why they perpetually suck.