MVP Race [Archive]

Nhlyounggun11

08-13-2006, 10:55 PM

NYRchick

08-13-2006, 11:54 PM

I'll just list who I think deserves it.

AL-David Ortiz
NL-Carlos Beltran

Now,I'm a Mets fan,but I'm not being biased here.No question that Albert Pujoles is a better player,but considering the fact that the Mets are the best team in the NL,and Beltran being a major contributer to that,not to mention the fact that he's been healthier.

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 03:47 AM

I really appreciate putting Pronk at number 2. Nice to see he's getting respect. If Cleveland was a contender he should be the favorite, but the fact is they suck and his fantastic season means squat. Maybe he deserves 5th, but not 2nd. He should win the hank aaron award though, but that obviously will not happen to anybody playing in cleveland, or outside of Bos/NY.

WillardJFredricks

08-14-2006, 08:27 AM

AL-David Ortiz
NL-Albert Pujols

Pujols deserves another. He is the only reason St. Louis is in first place. He missed 15 games and is still in the top 5 in everything. I'm sure Beltran will get it, but Pujols deserves it.

Dartmouth 02

08-14-2006, 10:14 AM

AL
1. Morneau
2. Ortiz
3. Verlander
4. Dye
5. Mauer

NL
1. Pujols
2. Beltran
3. Soriano
4. Dunn
5. Howard

Renegade of Funk

08-14-2006, 10:45 AM

AL- Papi
NL- Beltran

acr*

08-14-2006, 01:16 PM

I'd even go as far as to say Hafner's having the best season for an AL hitter, but his team isn't in the race, and Ortiz has 7 ****ing Walkoff hits this season. You can't not give it to Papi.

KH1

08-14-2006, 04:44 PM

American League
1. David Ortiz
2. Jim Thome
3. Derek Jeter
4. Justin Morneau
5. Travis Hafner

National League
1. Albert Pujols
2. Carlos Beltran
3. David Wright
4. Ryan Howard
5. Alfonso Soriano

Ortiz wins easily in the AL. Jeter is being underrated here--he's going to finish this season with at least a .340 average, 100 RBIs, 30 stolen bases and possibly a gold glove. He should at least be in the conversation, though he shouldn't win.

In the NL, Pujols wins because Beltran and Wright are victims of each other's success. Pujols carries the Cardinals while Beltran and Wright both carry the Mets. Hence, Pujols is more valuable to St. Louis than either Wright or Beltran is to the Mets.

Ironchef Chris Wok*

08-14-2006, 05:10 PM

Or you could give it to the catcher who's team is in the race and has right now a .441 OBP, slugging over .500 and a 58/38 BB/K ratio.

Hey, that's just me.

Unholy Diver

08-14-2006, 07:00 PM

Or you could give it to the catcher who's team is in the race and has right now a .441 OBP, slugging over .500 and a 58/38 BB/K ratio.

Hey, that's just me.

not in this lifetime

as the saying goes: Singles hitters drive Chevy's and Homerun hitters drive Caddilacs

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 07:09 PM

not in this lifetime

as the saying goes: Singles hitters drive Chevy's and Homerun hitters drive Caddilacs

Ichiro won mvp(undeservingly) hitting only like 30 ebh. Obviously Giambi was robbed that year, but what can ya do.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-14-2006, 07:25 PM

I really appreciate putting Pronk at number 2.
Hafner would be my favorite non-Sock if he didn't have such a stupid nickname.

AL
1. Ortiz
2. Mauer
3. Manny Ramirez
4. Jeter
5. Hafner

NL
1. Pujols
2. Beltran
3. Berkman
4. Utley
5. Miguel Cabrera

Ironchef Chris Wok*

08-14-2006, 07:26 PM

not in this lifetime

as the saying goes: Singles hitters drive Chevy's and Homerun hitters drive Caddilacs

Mauer is hitting his share of XBH.

Ironchef Chris Wok*

08-14-2006, 07:30 PM

Ichiro won mvp(undeservingly) hitting only like 30 ebh. Obviously Giambi was robbed that year, but what can ya do.

Ichiro 2001:

2B: 34
3B: 8
HR: 8

Do you ever get tired of NOT fact checking?

Giambi was ridiculous offensively that year, and should have gotten the MVP, but if you factor the immense defensive value gap and thesomewhat lesser baserunning gap...

acr*

08-14-2006, 07:55 PM

Or the fact that everyone under the sun knew he was juiced up.

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 08:19 PM

Ichiro 2001:

2B: 34
3B: 8
HR: 8

Do you ever get tired of NOT fact checking?

Giambi was ridiculous offensively that year, and should have gotten the MVP, but if you factor the immense defensive value gap and thesomewhat lesser baserunning gap...

the number I pulled was not a serious number, it was fecitious, but thanks for showing me that Ichiro's numbers were quite ridiculously low. So he had 50 ebh. Exactly 50. ****, Albert Belle had 50 doubles AND 50 homers in 1995. But Ichiro gets mvp. What a joke.

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 08:19 PM

Or the fact that everyone under the sun knew he was juiced up.

that doesn't matter. The fact is, Ichiro was at best the 3rd most valuable player to his own team.

Biggsy

08-14-2006, 09:15 PM

Papi and Howard

Unholy Diver

08-14-2006, 09:19 PM

Ichiro won mvp(undeservingly) hitting only like 30 ebh. Obviously Giambi was robbed that year, but what can ya do.

yeah he did but did Giambi have the kind of year Ortiz is? I hate the sox but there is no denying that he has practically single handedly kept them in the race, it seems like he wins a game every week with a walk off homer or hit

and looking back, in the steroid era there have only been 3 al mvps with under 28 homers, Ichiro, Robin Yount, and Dennis Eckersly

Mauer is having a great year but all things being equal its going to be really tough to beat 50-55 homers and 140+ rbi

KH1

08-14-2006, 09:31 PM

IMO the reason that Mauer isn't an MVP candidate isn't because of his lack of homeruns, it's because of Justin Morneau. The evidence is clear--Mauer was tearing the cover off the ball early in the season and the Twins were playing awful. Once Morneau started hitting they became a playoff team.

Mauer may be the best player on his team but he's not the most valuable. In fact, I'd argue that he's 3rd on the Twins (behind Morneau and Santana.)

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 09:58 PM

yeah he did but did Giambi have the kind of year Ortiz is? I hate the sox but there is no denying that he has practically single handedly kept them in the race, it seems like he wins a game every week with a walk off homer or hit

and looking back, in the steroid era there have only been 3 al mvps with under 28 homers, Ichiro, Robin Yount, and Dennis Eckersly

Mauer is having a great year but all things being equal its going to be really tough to beat 50-55 homers and 140+ rbi

Ortiz is overrated because of his walk off hits. manny has actually contributed at worse an equal amount of production than Ortiz.

NassauIsles82*

08-14-2006, 10:05 PM

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 10:07 PM

here we go

Boston Red Sox win shares (http://www.overthemonster.com/story/2006/8/11/16057/1371)

Just as I suspected, manny has actually contributed more to the sox this season, albeit marginally.

KH1

08-14-2006, 10:09 PM

Ortiz is overrated because of his walk off hits. manny has actually contributed at worse an equal amount of production than Ortiz.
:confused: I think that you're the only person in the world who considers walk-off hits to be overrated...

Yeah, Jeter hit a game winning homerun in the 2001 world series but who cares? Paul O'Neill totally probably would've hit a homer next at bat!

Nhlyounggun11

08-14-2006, 10:10 PM

AL
1. Morneau
2. Ortiz
3. Verlander
4. Dye
5. Mauer

NL
1. Pujols
2. Beltran
3. Soriano
4. Dunn
5. Howard

How are you gonna put Dunn in there ahead of Howard?! haha, wow. Did you know he leads the league in strikouts and hits .251

:shakehead :banghead:

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 10:21 PM

:confused: I think that you're the only person in the world who considers walk-off hits to be overrated...

Yeah, Jeter hit a game winning homerun in the 2001 world series but who cares? Paul O'Neill totally probably would've hit a homer next at bat!

I didn't say walk off hits were overrated. I said he is overrated because of them. To focus entirely on the walk off hit is to deprive the team of getting to that situation. The fact of the matter is, manny ramirez has contributed more to the Boston Red Sox than David Ortiz. Show me some stats that disprove this hypothesis. I have an entire arsenal of stats that prove my point, lets see yours.

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 10:23 PM

Dunn hits .251

:shakehead :banghead:

.377 obp. Certainly not mvp worthy, but you just got pwned.

Nhlyounggun11

08-14-2006, 10:28 PM

.377 obp. Certainly not mvp worthy, but you just got pwned.

Hahaha. Did i really get pwned? Because i'm pretty sure Howard's obp. is .386. Haha you just got "pwned"!!!

get your facts straight

:clap:

NassauIsles82*

08-14-2006, 10:29 PM

Forgot my top 5's

AL

Ortiz(I'm a Yankee fan too)
Dye
Ramirez
Verlander
Morneau/V. Wells

HM- Jeter/Mauer/Papelbon/Thome/Mo Rivera/Konerko/Schilling/Moose/Liriano/Santana/Ibanez/Gary Matthews JR/Vlad/Halladay

I'm not going to mention the Hafner's and Tejadas and others who's teams are still pretty much out of the race. This list is taking into account the gold gloving guys like Dye, Wells and Jeter do as well as hitting of course.

NL

Beltran
Pujols
Berkman
Howard
M. Holliday- Huge for his team this year.

HM- Wright/Webb/Utley/Andruw Jones/Cabrera/Penny/Josh Johnson/Dunn.

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 10:35 PM

here is a stat that proves the Ortiz clutch factor is vastly overrated.

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/stats/sortable_player_stats.jsp?compare.x=&box6=XXXX120903XXXX&c_id=mlb&section1=null&statSet1=null&statType=1&sortByStat=AB&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2006&baseballScope=mlb&isCompare=true&sitSplit=rsp&venueID=&teamPosCode=all&box1=XXXX120074bosD&box2=XXXX400098cleD&checkBoxTotal=0&playerLocator=Ramirez

I put Hafner into the comparison for my own simple curiosity, but as you can tell he dwarves Ortiz with RISP. Anyways, Manny has better numbers up and down the board than Ortiz with RISP. But, Ortiz gets the luxury of 17 more abs in such situations, which makes his rbi total inflated.

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 10:36 PM

Hahaha. Did i really get pwned? Because i'm pretty sure Howard's obp. is .386. Haha you just got "pwned"!!!

get your facts straight

:clap:

what the hell are you talking about. I was talking about Adam Dunn and you posting a useless stat about him. How does Ryan Howard have anything to do with that. Howard having a small advantage in obp doesn't help your case either, especially since mvp voting isn't completly stats based. A simple comparison shows that Howard is a 1 trick pony who relies on his deep ball ability to produce as his numbers decline with RISP.

Nhlyounggun11

08-14-2006, 10:38 PM

what the hell are you talking about. I was talking about Adam Dunn and you posting a useless stat about him. How does Ryan Howard have anything to do with that.

If you look at the first thing i said, i was comparing dunn to howard, and how he put Dunn ahead of howard. I never said he sucked.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-14-2006, 10:41 PM

The fact of the matter is, manny ramirez has contributed more to the Boston Red Sox than David Ortiz. Show me some stats that disprove this hypothesis.
Runs Created
Ortiz - 104.3
Manny - 103.3

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 10:50 PM

Runs Created
Ortiz - 104.3
Manny - 103.3

bad stat to use. First of all, that is negligable. Second of all.......

Runs Created/27

Manny 9.49
Ortiz 8.64

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 10:55 PM

If you look at the first thing i said, i was comparing dunn to howard, and how he put Dunn ahead of howard. I never said he sucked.

I saw what you said, I was soley commmenting on your use of the batting average stat. Which has its uses when used in certain situation(ie RISP), however to just say he is hitting .252 and use it against him is meaningless. His OBP is quite decent, which also negates the strikeout factor.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-14-2006, 10:59 PM

Fish on The Sand

08-14-2006, 11:26 PM

It's not a bad stat to use. It shows the actual offensive contribution of each player. You asked for total contribution, so a rate stat is pointless.

Yes, it's a negligible difference. So is 3 win shares, especially when you consider win shares attributes 2 fielding win shares to Manny, when it's pretty obvious that his defense should only be tracked in the negative.

ahhh, but RC27 is much more than a rate stat.

It also takes into account Ortiz's and Manny's negative production ie: outs.

RC27 is (RC/Total Outs)(27)

Another way you could look at it is...

TO - RC(or net contribution)

In this stat the closer the number to 0 the better that stat.

Ortiz 225.7
Manny 191.7

basically this means Manny is 15% more productive than Ortiz.

Total out numbers:

Ortiz 330
Manny 295

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-14-2006, 11:53 PM

He's 15% more productive, but he's contributed one less run.

Fish on The Sand

08-15-2006, 01:38 AM

He's 15% more productive, but he's contributed one less run.

and 35 less outs..........

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-15-2006, 02:06 AM

In 33 less at bats.

Fish on The Sand

08-15-2006, 02:58 AM

In 33 less at bats.

ahhh there in lies the problem. You don't need an ab to record an out. This takes into account sacrifice hits/flies and caught stealing as well.

Ironchef Chris Wok*

08-15-2006, 03:01 AM

IMO the reason that Mauer isn't an MVP candidate isn't because of his lack of homeruns, it's because of Justin Morneau. The evidence is clear--Mauer was tearing the cover off the ball early in the season and the Twins were playing awful. Once Morneau started hitting they became a playoff team.

You mean a team needs MORE THAN ONE GOOD HITTER to contend?

Profound words of wisdom

Ironchef Chris Wok*

08-15-2006, 03:03 AM

Hahaha. Did i really get pwned? Because i'm pretty sure Howard's obp. is .386. Haha you just got "pwned"!!!

get your facts straight

:clap:

He enjoys not fact checking.

I heart Adam Dunn btw.

I think [Scott Hatteberg] is overrated

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-15-2006, 05:12 AM

ahhh there in lies the problem. You don't need an ab to record an out. This takes into account sacrifice hits/flies and caught stealing as well.
Manny has 1 CS, Ortiz has 0. Manny has 8 SF, and Ortiz has 4. Really doesn't make much difference.

It really doesn't matter. I was merely showing a quantative stat that showed how Ortiz has contributed more than Manny, which is what you asked for. However, after yesterday's game, Manny has 104.5 RC to Ortiz's 103.8.

If I wasn't a Sox fan, I'd pick Manny, too, because he is, objectively, better. But I am a fan, and I watch every game, and I can't not pick Ortiz.

Of course, there is this difference:

Close and Late
Manny - .255 .425 .545 .970
Ortiz - .313 .403 .851 1.254

Then again, Manny doesn't have Manny hitting behind him. Either way, I still take Papi.

KH1

08-15-2006, 06:50 AM

You mean a team needs MORE THAN ONE GOOD HITTER to contend?

Profound words of wisdom
I'm not trying to say that, but I could see how you could've read it in my post--my bad.

My point is that Morneau is more valuable to the Twins team than Mauer. Trade Mauer for the 10th best catcher in baseball and the team will be better off than with the 10th best first baseman instead of Morneau.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-15-2006, 07:37 AM

Bourque7799

08-15-2006, 09:57 AM

I didn't say walk off hits were overrated. I said he is overrated because of them. To focus entirely on the walk off hit is to deprive the team of getting to that situation. The fact of the matter is, manny ramirez has contributed more to the Boston Red Sox than David Ortiz. Show me some stats that disprove this hypothesis. I have an entire arsenal of stats that prove my point, lets see yours.

Get. A. Life. Seriously, go get some friends or something.

Fish on The Sand

08-15-2006, 04:33 PM

Get. A. Life. Seriously, go get some friends or something.

What, having an arsenal of stats means I can't have a life? Wow, so very judgemental.

Fish on The Sand

08-15-2006, 04:40 PM

Going by VORP, 10th best catcher would be like Kenji Johjima. 10th best first baseman would be like Lyle Overbay.

Mauer - .361 .441 .522 .963
Johjima - .296 .339 .460 .798
Difference - .65 .102 .62 .165

Mornueau - .318 .370 .593 .964
Overbay - .303 .360 .505 .864
Difference - .15 .10 .88 .100

I'll take Mauer and Overbay.

although the stats do favor your theory, they aren't that big of a difference. If anything it shows the hitting depth at catcher that the 10th best catcher isn't miles behind the 10th best 1st baseman in terms of ops. I too would take Mauer and Overbay, but its not like Morneau and Johjima would be far less effective. Actually, when it comes right down to it, in OPS obp is more valuable than slg by about double, Johjima has a terrible obp, which is where the biggest dropoff is. Morneau and Overbay are virtually identical in that regard, and Mauer job at the plate is to reach base which he does amazingly well. So I'll change my stance and say it is a huge dropoff and that Mauer/Overbay would be better considerably.

Fish on The Sand

08-15-2006, 04:51 PM

Manny has 1 CS, Ortiz has 0. Manny has 8 SF, and Ortiz has 4. Really doesn't make much difference.

It really doesn't matter. I was merely showing a quantative stat that showed how Ortiz has contributed more than Manny, which is what you asked for. However, after yesterday's game, Manny has 104.5 RC to Ortiz's 103.8.

If I wasn't a Sox fan, I'd pick Manny, too, because he is, objectively, better. But I am a fan, and I watch every game, and I can't not pick Ortiz.

Of course, there is this difference:

Close and Late
Manny - .255 .425 .545 .970
Ortiz - .313 .403 .851 1.254

Then again, Manny doesn't have Manny hitting behind him. Either way, I still take Papi.

Ortiz does have superior numbers, however, this is such a small sample size of the season that it isn't that significant. It does show that close and late Ortiz has hit with more power than Manny, but that is about it. If you put too much importance into this situation(which the voters most definatly will), you discount the rest of the game. Hypothetically, after 7 innings the Sox could be down 8-3 and Ramirez could hit a grand slam and pull the game to within one. This would not show up as performing when its close and late.

Nhlyounggun11

08-16-2006, 04:14 PM

Ortiz would get more votes than Manny, end of story.

Enoch

08-16-2006, 04:21 PM

Ortiz does have superior numbers, however, this is such a small sample size of the season that it isn't that significant. It does show that close and late Ortiz has hit with more power than Manny, but that is about it. If you put too much importance into this situation(which the voters most definatly will), you discount the rest of the game. Hypothetically, after 7 innings the Sox could be down 8-3 and Ramirez could hit a grand slam and pull the game to within one. This would not show up as performing when its close and late.

Also of note - David Ortiz gets the benefit of having Manny Ramirez batting behind him and not vice versa.

PHillYFan33

08-16-2006, 05:07 PM

Al-Deff Big PaPi
NL-Deff Ryan Howard

KH1

08-16-2006, 06:09 PM

Going by VORP, 10th best catcher would be like Kenji Johjima. 10th best first baseman would be like Lyle Overbay.

Mauer - .361 .441 .522 .963
Johjima - .296 .339 .460 .798
Difference - .65 .102 .62 .165

Mornueau - .318 .370 .593 .964
Overbay - .303 .360 .505 .864
Difference - .15 .10 .88 .100

I'll take Mauer and Overbay.

That is more a byproduct of the fact that there are far more good offensive first basemen than offensive catchers than an actual measuerment of Mauer or Morneau's value.

Unless there is a Twins fan who is willing to argue otherwise, I just find it hard to believe that Mauer is more critical to the Minnesota lineup than Morneau. Take out Morneau and the Twins all of the sudden don't have anybody to knock in runs. Take out Mauer and they have less runs to knock in, though they can still rely on the other players to get on base some and they have the long ball.

This whole arguement is humorously moot anyway IMO, because in reality Johan Santana is the Twinkies most valuable player by a fair margin.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-16-2006, 07:03 PM

That is more a byproduct of the fact that there are far more good offensive first basemen than offensive catchers than an actual measuerment of Mauer or Morneau's value.
Uh, that's exactly what makes Mauer so much more valuable.

WILDTATE10

08-17-2006, 12:00 AM

Ortiz and Morneau are 1, 2 right now.

NYYmt62

08-17-2006, 12:09 AM

Ortiz definitely has the best offensive numbers in the AL, but the bottom line is he is a Designated Hitter- and this should be held against him. Baseball is a two-way game, and Ortiz should have to suffer for not playing the field. I personally think the MVP is Jeter. He has played great defense, put up outstanding numbers offensively and is clutch. Ortiz puts up outstanding number and is clutch, but he does not play the field. I would love to give stats on why Jeter should be the MVP, but Jeter does a lot more than the stats can show. I know all the Yanks haters will voice how overrated Jeter is, but there is a reason why he is the most respected player in baseball and has four rings. He should at least be given some serious consideration.

Fish on The Sand

08-17-2006, 12:14 AM

NYYmt62

08-17-2006, 02:08 AM

Ortiz is, at best, the 3rd best hitter in the AL. He isn't even the best on his own team.....

Don't know about that... I am assuming you think Ramirez is better on the Red Sox? Who is the other hitters you put above him?

Fish on The Sand

08-17-2006, 03:26 PM

Don't know about that... I am assuming you think Ramirez is better on the Red Sox? Who is the other hitters you put above him?

Hafner and Ramirez being the 2 guys I'd saya re definatly ahead. Ortiz is likely 3rd, but there are other guys close to him. Ortiz will win mvp because of the media bandwagon, but to say he is more important than Ramirez is a joke, and to say he is the best hitter in the AL is wrong when stats show that Hafner and Ramirez are both better.

KH1

08-17-2006, 04:06 PM

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-17-2006, 05:35 PM

VORP
Manny - 55.6
Ortiz - 55.5

Warp 1, 2, 3
Manny - 5.5, 6.6, 8.3
Ortiz - 5.9, 6.8, 8.5

It would hardly be a joke to say he's more valuable than Manny.

NYYmt62

08-17-2006, 11:34 PM

Hafner and Ramirez being the 2 guys I'd saya re definatly ahead. Ortiz is likely 3rd, but there are other guys close to him. Ortiz will win mvp because of the media bandwagon, but to say he is more important than Ramirez is a joke, and to say he is the best hitter in the AL is wrong when stats show that Hafner and Ramirez are both better.

I am a Yanks fan, and despise both Manny Ramirez and David Ortiz. I cannot believe I am defending Ortiz right now. Out of the three hitters, I think Ortiz is the best. And I think you are way off base in saying that it is a joke to consider Ortiz better than Manny. The Yanks play Ortiz and Manny nineteen times a year, without the playoffs- and I feel pretty confident when I say Ortiz means a lot more to the Red Sox than Manny does. And the bottom line is this- the AL MVP Race should come down to Jeter and Ortiz, with Mauer getting some votes. Hafner is a great hitter, but he plays for a team that is not even in the playoff race. I subscribe to the theory that an MVP should be playing in meaningful games over the course of a season.

SPV

08-18-2006, 12:12 PM

I don't think you can accurately describe how much Ortiz means to the Sox with just stats. I'm not taking anything away from Manny, because he's definitely one of the best hitters in the game; but even without playing defense, Big Papi brings more to the plate than just the numbers.
Whether the stats indicate it or not, he's carried this team (along with Papelbon) to where they are right now. I don't know that you can say that about the other candidates. But as a Red Sox fan, I can't speak to how important each player is to other teams.

The way I always try to think of it is this; if you take the next best guy at any position and try to imagine him on your team instead of that player; where would the team be. So if you plug in Tejada instead of Jeter on the Yanks, I still think the Yanks are in first, or a close second. If you plug practically anyone else in instead of Ortiz, I think the Sox have 5 or 10 less wins. Just MO though. So not sure what that's worth....

xander

08-18-2006, 01:05 PM

Al-Deff Big PaPi
NL-Deff Ryan Howard

I don't see how Ryan Howard is the hands down MVP. If the Phills don't make the playoffs then he won't get a sniff.. And it's not like he's that valuable on the defensive side.

Fish on The Sand

08-18-2006, 03:18 PM

One could make an arguement for Ramirez but Hafner is not as good a hitter as Ortiz. Big Papi has power to all fields, can hit the ball from any part of the plate, can take close pitches and has a knack for winning games singlehandedly, which cannot be overlooked.

Hafner also has that knack for winning games, but his team is just so far down in the standings nobody cares. Hafner has the best stats of any hitter in the al.

Unholy Diver

08-18-2006, 08:54 PM

Hafner also has that knack for winning games, but his team is just so far down in the standings nobody cares. Hafner has the best stats of any hitter in the al.

Ortiz is #1 in two of the three triple crown categories, last time I checked #1 is better than any other numbers so Hafner does not have the best stats in the AL

argue all you want about all those new fangled stats but when it comes down to the mvp race it will be based on the regular normal stats of Avg. Hr's, Rbi's, SB, etc

Nhlyounggun11

08-18-2006, 11:22 PM

I don't see how Ryan Howard is the hands down MVP. If the Phills don't make the playoffs then he won't get a sniff.. And it's not like he's that valuable on the defensive side.

A-Rod won the MVP with the Rangers and they didn't make the playoffs. I know he's good at defense and all but you can still win an MVP without your team making the playoffs.

BuppY

08-19-2006, 12:40 AM

Ortiz has been Mr Clutch.

xander

08-19-2006, 11:33 AM

A-Rod won the MVP with the Rangers and they didn't make the playoffs. I know he's good at defense and all but you can still win an MVP without your team making the playoffs.

I've never liked that line of thought. The way I see it is that if you take the best player off a non-playoff team then they are still a non-playoff team. An MVP, imo, has to carry a team to the post season at the very least.

My vote would be Pujols. I'd love to see Beltran get it, but Pujols has so much less help.

Nhlyounggun11

08-19-2006, 01:25 PM

I've never liked that line of thought. The way I see it is that if you take the best player off a non-playoff team then they are still a non-playoff team. An MVP, imo, has to carry a team to the post season at the very least.

My vote would be Pujols. I'd love to see Beltran get it, but Pujols has so much less help.

The stats certainly don't lie

xander

08-19-2006, 03:28 PM

huh?

naihlflames

08-19-2006, 06:38 PM

A-Rod won the MVP with the Rangers and they didn't make the playoffs. I know he's good at defense and all but you can still win an MVP without your team making the playoffs.

Well that could be Ortiz in the AL this year too.

Hockeyfan02

08-19-2006, 08:01 PM

Ortiz is #1 in two of the three triple crown categories, last time I checked #1 is better than any other numbers so Hafner does not have the best stats in the AL

Hafner is leading Ortiz in OBP and SLG which are better ways to judge a hitter than a team based stat like RBIs. Hafner has the best hitting stats in the AL overall slightly above Manny.

In the NL, the best is Pujols and it's not even close.

Overall I'd give the MVPs to Ortiz because coming through in the clutch should count for something as winning games is the most important thing and Pujols.

KH1

08-19-2006, 10:02 PM

Hafner is leading Ortiz in OBP and SLG which are better ways to judge a hitter than a team based stat like RBIs. Hafner has the best hitting stats in the AL overall slightly above Manny.

Bull****. On base % is not a better way to judge a hitter than RBIs, in fact the two aren't even that related. Take Adam Dunn for example--his OBP is low, but it's irrelevant. He's not paid to draw walks and get base hits, he's paid to get homeruns. In contrast, Reed Johnson has a really high OBP, but doesn't hit a lot of homers or knock in that many runs. Does that make Johnson a better player than Dunn (or the other way around?) Of course not.

And that's not even speaking of value. Ortiz is valuable because, although Manny is constantly on base and drives in a ton of runs, he doesn't drive in as many as Ortiz. And he doesn't win as many games as Ortiz. It's as simple as that.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-19-2006, 10:17 PM

RBI is one of the most overrated stats. If you put Reed Johnson 4th in the Jays' order, he'd probably have RBI numbers similar to Dunn.

Hockeyfan02

08-19-2006, 10:25 PM

Bull****. On base % is not a better way to judge a hitter than RBIs, in fact the two aren't even that related. Take Adam Dunn for example--his OBP is low, but it's irrelevant. He's not paid to draw walks and get base hits, he's paid to get homeruns. In contrast, Reed Johnson has a really high OBP, but doesn't hit a lot of homers or knock in that many runs. Does that make Johnson a better player than Dunn (or the other way around?) Of course not.

And that's not even speaking of value. Ortiz is valuable because, although Manny is constantly on base and drives in a ton of runs, he doesn't drive in as many as Ortiz. And he doesn't win as many games as Ortiz. It's as simple as that.

I said they've been better hitters this year than Ortiz, but if you read the last part of my post I said Ortiz is the most VALUABLE because of his clutch hits. I would hope Ortiz has more RBIs than Manny, Manny has had more ABs with no runners on base because of Ortiz's homeruns. If you look at their AVG, OBP, OPS Manny has the advantage...SLG they are equal. So one stat (RBIs) makes Ortiz the better hitter this year? Not asking you who's more valuable.

Actually OBP is a better way to judge a hitter than RBIs. Having a lot of RBIs is great, but it doesn't make one guy better than the other. Player A and Player B can have the same amounts/percentages in every single category, but if Player A has guys in front of him who get on base more often than Player B...he's going to have more RBI's. Would you agree that if a guy has players in front of him that get on base more often than the other guy, they're likely to have more RBI's all things being equal. I never said OBP should be the only thing used to judge a hitter. Of course I would take Dunn(who over his career has a pretty good OBP) over Johnson(although Johnson is having a very good year, though it's more of a fluke judged on previous years). OBP is a stat that is a valuable tool in judging a hitter, not the only one though.

Dr Love

08-19-2006, 10:29 PM

Bull****. On base % is not a better way to judge a hitter than RBIs, in fact the two aren't even that related.

Who is the better hitter (both played full seasons):

Player A: 32 HR 110 RBI 272 OBP 455 SLG
Player B: 21 HR 81 RBI 400 OBP 481 SLG

Take Adam Dunn for example--his OBP is low, but it's irrelevant.

375 ain't low.

He's not paid to draw walks and get base hits, he's paid to get homeruns. In contrast, Reed Johnson has a really high OBP, but doesn't hit a lot of homers or knock in that many runs. Does that make Johnson a better player than Dunn (or the other way around?) Of course not.

Reed Johnson is also putting up a OBP 70 points higher than his career average.

And that's not even speaking of value. Ortiz is valuable because, although Manny is constantly on base and drives in a ton of runs, he doesn't drive in as many as Ortiz. And he doesn't win as many games as Ortiz. It's as simple as that.

RBIs since being teammates, entering this season:

Manny: 378
Ortiz: 388

They've been equal, save for this year. And let's not overlook that since Ortiz bats in front of Manny, every time Big Papi has a game winning hit he takes away a chance for Manny to win it.

I would hope Ortiz has more RBIs than Manny, Manny has had more ABs with no runners on base because of Ortiz's homeruns.

And that too.

Fish on The Sand

08-20-2006, 02:42 AM

Ortiz is #1 in two of the three triple crown categories, last time I checked #1 is better than any other numbers so Hafner does not have the best stats in the AL

argue all you want about all those new fangled stats but when it comes down to the mvp race it will be based on the regular normal stats of Avg. Hr's, Rbi's, SB, etc

its funny, Hafner is number 2 in both, and not by much in either, but miles ahead of Ortiz everywhere else.

David Puddy

08-20-2006, 04:19 AM

It is better to look at both On Base Average and Slugging Average or the combination of the two, OPS. It shows how often a runner got on base and the quality of hits a batter gets. If you look at number one and two all-time, you will see that it's Babe Ruth and Ted Williams, the two greatest hitters the game has ever known.

However, saying that runs batted in is an overrated stat is like saying goals scored in hockey is an overated stat. The object of baseball is to score more runs than the opposition.

its funny, Hafner is number 2 in both, and not by much in either, but miles ahead of Ortiz everywhere else.However, Hafner has two things against him. He is a DH, and his team is way below .500. I think Ortiz will have trouble getting first place votes if the Red Sox don't make the playoffs, but Hafner's team is 23.5 GB in the AL Central and 18 GB in the wildcard. The Indians were out of it by May or June.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-20-2006, 04:39 AM

However, saying that runs batted in is an overrated stat is like saying goals scored in hockey is an overated stat. The object of baseball is to score more runs than the opposition.
As a measure of individual ability, RBI are extremely overrated. Aside from home runs, it's entirely dependent on team play. You take Ortiz and you put him on the Cubs, his RBI numbers are going to plummet. Does that make him a worse player?

KH1

08-20-2006, 04:54 PM

I said they've been better hitters this year than Ortiz, but if you read the last part of my post I said Ortiz is the most VALUABLE because of his clutch hits. I would hope Ortiz has more RBIs than Manny, Manny has had more ABs with no runners on base because of Ortiz's homeruns. If you look at their AVG, OBP, OPS Manny has the advantage...SLG they are equal. So one stat (RBIs) makes Ortiz the better hitter this year? Not asking you who's more valuable.

Actually OBP is a better way to judge a hitter than RBIs. Having a lot of RBIs is great, but it doesn't make one guy better than the other. Player A and Player B can have the same amounts/percentages in every single category, but if Player A has guys in front of him who get on base more often than Player B...he's going to have more RBI's. Would you agree that if a guy has players in front of him that get on base more often than the other guy, they're likely to have more RBI's all things being equal. I never said OBP should be the only thing used to judge a hitter. Of course I would take Dunn(who over his career has a pretty good OBP) over Johnson(although Johnson is having a very good year, though it's more of a fluke judged on previous years). OBP is a stat that is a valuable tool in judging a hitter, not the only one though.

I jumped the gun and didn't read the end of your post thoroughly. My apologies.

RBI is one of the most overrated stats. If you put Reed Johnson 4th in the Jays' order, he'd probably have RBI numbers similar to Dunn.

:biglaugh: That's right, if Reed Johnson were in the middle of Toronto's lineup he'd magically become a 40 homerun hitter. Keep on reaching for that rainbow, cowboy:help:

Ironchef Chris Wok*

08-21-2006, 05:38 AM

:biglaugh: That's right, if Reed Johnson were in the middle of Toronto's lineup he'd magically become a 40 homerun hitter. Keep on reaching for that rainbow, cowboy:help:

No, but he'd rack up RBI's since the 123 hitters get on basemoreoften than the 789 hitters, and you don't need home runs to get RBI's. You don't even need to have a good at bat to get RBI's. Just hit some krap roller to the SS during some 7-2 game, you get thrown out at 1B, and the runner from3B scores... a RBI!

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-21-2006, 06:24 AM

:biglaugh: That's right, if Reed Johnson were in the middle of Toronto's lineup he'd magically become a 40 homerun hitter. Keep on reaching for that rainbow, cowboy:help:
Because you need home runs to get RBI. :dunce:

You bat .324 with a .908 OPS in the clean-up spot for a top 10 offense, you're going to get plenty of RBI. Much more than if you're leading off.

Fish on The Sand

08-21-2006, 04:58 PM

It is better to look at both On Base Average and Slugging Average or the combination of the two, OPS. It shows how often a runner got on base and the quality of hits a batter gets. If you look at number one and two all-time, you will see that it's Babe Ruth and Ted Williams, the two greatest hitters the game has ever known.

However, saying that runs batted in is an overrated stat is like saying goals scored in hockey is an overated stat. The object of baseball is to score more runs than the opposition.

However, Hafner has two things against him. He is a DH, and his team is way below .500. I think Ortiz will have trouble getting first place votes if the Red Sox don't make the playoffs, but Hafner's team is 23.5 GB in the AL Central and 18 GB in the wildcard. The Indians were out of it by May or June.

I'm not saying Hafner is mvp, I'm saying he is a better hitter than Ortiz this season.

Son of Steinbrenner

08-21-2006, 05:01 PM

you can add the name derek jeter to this list

WillardJFredricks

08-23-2006, 09:19 AM

David Puddy

08-24-2006, 12:39 PM

Last night shows why Pujols is MVP. He drives in all 7 runs. They lost, but they are still in 1rst place, if it weren't for him they would be fighting with Pittsburgh for last in the division. He should run away with the NL MVP, but I'm sure he'll get robbed of it once again.Like he was robbed last year when he won it? I thought Andruw Jones should have won last year because he single-handedly carried the Braves team while Chipper Jones was injured.

I do think Pujols is the front-runner again this year. His main competition comes from Carlos Beltran.

you can add the name derek jeter to this listI didn't read through this whole thread, so I don't know if anyone really put a list together, but Jeter was the main guy I was thinking would compete with David Ortiz. Jeter doesn't have the best offensive numbers on the Yankees (Giambi - OBA: .422; SLG: .604,) but he adds the leadership to the team in a similar way that Ortiz does in Boston. A-Rod even has a higher OPS (.895 to .876,) but he seems to hit into a lot of DP's and K when runners are on base. Another Yankee that should get a lot of consideration is Johnny Damon. He too has a higher OPS (.878) than Jeter by a slight bit while playing solid defensivily in CF despite his rag arm.

Here's my list for the ten finalists for the A.L. MVP:

Johnny Damon, CF - NYY
Jermaine Dye, OF -CHW
Jason Giambi, 1B/DH - NYY
Carlos Guilen, SS - DET
Derek Jeter, SS - NYY
Joe Mauer, C - MIN
David Ortiz, DH - BOS
Manny Ramirez, LF - BOS
Johan Santana, P - MIN
Justin Verlander, P - DET

acr*

08-24-2006, 01:25 PM

you can add the name derek jeter to this list
HA HA

Jeter and his .850 OPS shouldn't be anywhere near consideration! ESPN just brings him up because they've gotta kiss Yankee *** on BBTN and all the other Yankees either missed significant time due to injury or are Alex Rodriguez, who they've trashed all year to get ratings.

KH1

08-24-2006, 03:31 PM

No, but he'd rack up RBI's since the 123 hitters get on basemoreoften than the 789 hitters, and you don't need home runs to get RBI's. You don't even need to have a good at bat to get RBI's. Just hit some krap roller to the SS during some 7-2 game, you get thrown out at 1B, and the runner from3B scores... a RBI!

But to suggest that Johnson would become as good a run producer as Dunn is dowright ridiculous. There's a reason that the Blue Jays don't bat Reed in the middle of the order--very rarely can a hitter knock in 100 RBIs without pretty good (20 homerun) power, and I don't think that Johnson has that (but I may be wrong.)

HA HA

Jeter and his .850 OPS shouldn't be anywhere near consideration! ESPN just brings him up because they've gotta kiss Yankee *** on BBTN and all the other Yankees either missed significant time due to injury or are Alex Rodriguez, who they've trashed all year to get ratings.

Why shouldn't Jeter be in consideration? He's second in the league in batting average, 4th in the league in hits, is going to finish the season with more than 30 stolen bases and quite possibly more than 100 RBI. Add to that he's the undisputed leader of a playoff team, something that the favorite for this award David Ortiz can't say (though I would still cast my vote Papi if I had one) and he's probably going to win another gold glove.

I can see not giving him the award (like I said, I'd give it to Ortiz first without doubt) but if the Yankees win the division and Boston misses the playoffs of course Jeter should be a candidate.

Hawkalyzer

08-24-2006, 03:35 PM

Jermaine Dye is playing like an MVP this year.

.325/.390/.651 37 HR 99 RBI

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/profile?statsId=5610

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

08-24-2006, 04:12 PM

But to suggest that Johnson would become as good a run producer as Dunn is dowright ridiculous. There's a reason that the Blue Jays don't bat Reed in the middle of the order--very rarely can a hitter knock in 100 RBIs without pretty good (20 homerun) power, and I don't think that Johnson has that (but I may be wrong.)
I think it's ridiculous to think he couldn't do it. He's hitting 80 points higher than Dunn. He's only slugging 30 points less. Dunn Ks about twice as much. Dunn's had 189 ABs with runners on, 108 with RISP. Johnson's only had 120 and 69, respectivily. With his average and contact rate, if Johnson was given as many opportunities as Dunn, I don't see why it's unreasonable to think he'd have similar RBI numbers.

Ironchef Chris Wok*

08-24-2006, 06:03 PM

Here's my list for the ten finalists for the A.L. MVP:

Johnny Damon, CF - NYY
Jermaine Dye, OF -CHW
Jason Giambi, 1B/DH - NYY
Carlos Guilen, SS - DET
Derek Jeter, SS - NYY
Joe Mauer, C - MIN
David Ortiz, DH - BOS
Manny Ramirez, LF - BOS
Johan Santana, P - MIN
Justin Verlander, P - DET

Grady Sizemore hits better and is by far the better defender in CF than Damon. Travis Hafner not being there is also a travesty. Jim Thome/Vernon Wells shoudl also get some love.

KH1

08-24-2006, 06:54 PM

Grady Sizemore hits better and is by far the better defender in CF than Damon. Travis Hafner not being there is also a travesty. Jim Thome/Vernon Wells shoudl also get some love.
Yankees: 76-49, lead AL East
Indians: 57-68, 22.5 games out of first in AL Central

There you go.

Ironchef Chris Wok*

08-24-2006, 07:00 PM

Yankees: 76-49, lead AL East
Indians: 57-68, 22.5 games out of first in AL Central

There you go.

If Damon were on the Indians and Sizemore on the Yanks, the Yanks would be even better and the Indians would be worse.

So there you go.

KH1

08-24-2006, 07:27 PM

If Damon were on the Indians and Sizemore on the Yanks, the Yanks would be even better and the Indians would be worse.

So there you go.
I'm not going to pretend that Damon is a better player than Sizemore, but who is more valuable? The guy who keys one of (if not the) best offenses in baseball for a first place team, or the guy who plays really well on a terrible, laughingstock team?

This whole discussion is moot anyway, because neither Sizemore nor Damon is anywhere close to the MVP discussion.

acr*

08-24-2006, 07:31 PM

I'm not going to pretend that Damon is a better player than Sizemore, but who is more valuable? The guy who keys one of (if not the) best offenses in baseball for a first place team, or the guy who plays really well on a terrible, laughingstock team?

This whole discussion is moot anyway, because neither Sizemore nor Damon is anywhere close to the MVP discussion.
The guy on the bad team, because without him, they'd be even worse.

Without Sizemore, the Indians don't score a good amount of the runs they do. Without Damon, the Yanks still have a completely ridiculous mercenary lineup.

Son of Steinbrenner

08-24-2006, 07:41 PM

KH1

08-24-2006, 09:13 PM

The guy on the bad team, because without him, they'd be even worse.

Without Sizemore, the Indians don't score a good amount of the runs they do. Without Damon, the Yanks still have a completely ridiculous mercenary lineup.
Without Damon, the Yankees would have a lineup of Jeter, A-Rod, Posada, Giambi, Cano, Bernie Williams, Melky Cabrera, Bubba Crosby and Andy Phillips (sub Abreu in for the last month of the season.)

That's some great mercenary assault force there...

NCAA Hockey Fan

08-24-2006, 09:33 PM

Grady Sizemore hits better and is by far the better defender in CF than Damon.

AVG HR RBI H R K OPS
Damon .298 20 69 141 93 64 .879
Sizemore .295 19 58 150 101 111 .903

Hitting looks pretty even between the two except Sizemore strikes out ALOT more.

Fish on The Sand

08-24-2006, 10:42 PM

AVG HR RBI H R K OPS
Damon .298 20 69 141 93 64 .879
Sizemore .295 19 58 150 101 111 .903

Hitting looks pretty even between the two except Sizemore strikes out ALOT more.

Sizemore has a decent lead in OPS.

David Puddy

08-25-2006, 03:26 PM

Grady Sizemore hits better and is by far the better defender in CF than Damon. Travis Hafner not being there is also a travesty. Jim Thome/Vernon Wells shoudl also get some love.I didn't want a list of 20. Hafner wins the MVPKTAKC (Most Valuable Player Keeping Team Ahead of Kansas City.) If he was so far ahead of everyone, I would give him stronger consideration. The Indians haven't had playoffs hopes since early June.

I think Damon's value has been established this year. Where would the Sox be if they had him instead of the Evil Empire having his services? I think that Boston would be in first.

Ridiculous mercenary lineup?

Ha Ha

How many of the Red Sox starting 9 are home grown?I agree with you about Boston being a mercenary team as well, but it is not possible to compete against the Yankees any other way. The Yankees gave Farnsworth more money to be a setup man than he would have gotten to be the closer in Atlanta.

Tuggy

08-29-2006, 08:19 PM

So with Big Papi possibly missing all of September...who steps up as the MVP front runner? Jeter maybe?

acr*

08-29-2006, 10:47 PM

So with Big Papi possibly missing all of September...who steps up as the MVP front runner? Jeter maybe?
Who said Papi was going to miss the rest of the season? He may very well be back with the team by Friday.

If he does end up missing the rest of the year, it'd go to Hafner, then Dye. Jeter does not belong with those two.

Fish on The Sand

08-30-2006, 12:26 AM

Who said Papi was going to miss the rest of the season? He may very well be back with the team by Friday.

If he does end up missing the rest of the year, it'd go to Hafner, then Dye. Jeter does not belong with those two.

Hafner does NOT deserve mvp. The fact is, Cleveland hasn't played a meaningful game outside of a spoilers role since May, so that should eliminate him from winning mvp. He does however deserve lots of consideration for top 5 votes.

13Hockey

08-30-2006, 08:39 AM

Right Now it's Jermaine Dye in the AL
and Miguel Cabrera in the NL if the Marlins make the playoffs if not Howard

Tuggy

08-30-2006, 08:42 AM

Who said Papi was going to miss the rest of the season? He may very well be back with the team by Friday.

If he does end up missing the rest of the year, it'd go to Hafner, then Dye. Jeter does not belong with those two.

I said "possibily"...Dye is a solid choice, but while Hafner has good numbers, he's not worthy of MVP honors.

Miguel Cabrera in the NL if the Marlins make the playoffs if not Howard

Cabrera is an interesting pick and I agree with what you said. If the Marlins make the playoffs then he should get SERIOUS consideration.

acr*

08-30-2006, 10:53 AM

A-Rod won the MVP on a last place team...

Tuggy

08-30-2006, 10:56 AM

A-Rod won the MVP on a last place team...

But he was by FAR the best player in the AL. I don't think you can say the same thing about Hafner.

Nhlyounggun11

09-01-2006, 03:15 PM

http://www.aarongleeman.com/uploaded_images/ryanhoward-704984.jpg

robert terwilliger

09-01-2006, 03:19 PM

http://www.aarongleeman.com/uploaded_images/ryanhoward-704984.jpg

dude, awesome argument.:sarcasm:

Nhlyounggun11

09-01-2006, 03:29 PM

haha. i dont even have to say anything.

pelts35.com

09-05-2006, 01:09 PM

If the Phils make the wildcard, Howard has to be a lock for the NL MVP. Even if they don't, he's going to get a ton a votes leading the majors in 2 triple crown categories and hitting over .290.

KH1

09-05-2006, 02:08 PM

If the Phils make the wildcard, Howard has to be a lock for the NL MVP. Even if they don't, he's going to get a ton a votes leading the majors in 2 triple crown categories and hitting over .290.
Isn't he over .300 now? In any case I agree with you, Howard will probably win whether or not Philadelphia is in the playoffs (providing that they don't totally fall out of the race.)

As for the AL, I don't get acr's reasoning that Travis Hafner should win the MVP over Jeter, Mauer or Morneau. He's having a great offensive year but he's not running away with the numbers race by any means, he doesn't play any defense and he's on a team well under .500--it doesn't add up to me.

The Mars Volchenkov

09-06-2006, 12:10 AM

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20060906/capt.84b92bb4700342988d6ab41095ab2535.twins_devil_ rays_baseball_flmc104.jpg

NYYmt62

09-06-2006, 12:17 AM

Isn't he over .300 now? In any case I agree with you, Howard will probably win whether or not Philadelphia is in the playoffs (providing that they don't totally fall out of the race.)

As for the AL, I don't get acr's reasoning that Travis Hafner should win the MVP over Jeter, Mauer or Morneau. He's having a great offensive year but he's not running away with the numbers race by any means, he doesn't play any defense and he's on a team well under .500--it doesn't add up to me.

I agree with you. Hafner should not get the votes that any of those three get. I think it will come down to Jeter and Mauer in the end. They have played the most well-rounded seasons out of anyone. There is more to the game than HomeRuns and RBI's- and both Jeter and Mauer are good examples of complete players. I think DJ will win it in the end, simply because he has been stellar all season. Anyone who has watched some Yanks game cannot deny Jeters effect on the team. And I admit that as a Yankee fan I have a bias toward him- but he has been great this season. I have seen Mauer quite a few times this season and he has not impressed me like Jeter has.

robert terwilliger

09-06-2006, 07:44 PM

As for the AL, I don't get acr's reasoning that Travis Hafner should win the MVP over Jeter, Mauer or Morneau. He's having a great offensive year but he's not running away with the numbers race by any means, he doesn't play any defense and he's on a team well under .500--it doesn't add up to me.

i've said it before, but i don't follow the argument that if a player happens to be on a losing team that it immediately disqualifies him from mvp consideration.

also consider:

hafner's vorp (value over replacement player): 80.9
jeter's vorp: 68.7

from baseball prospecticus "The number of runs contributed beyond what a replacement-level player at the same position would contribute if given the same percentage of team plate appearances."

if you average it out per game, hafner is worth more than half a run a game by himself. that's pretty substantial.

i'll concede the fact that hafner is a designated hitter, but he absolutely excels at that aspect of the game. jeter may have a higher average, but hafner has about a 200 point higher slugging% and a slightly higher obp.

it may not be a runaway, but hafner deserves serious consideration for mvp. especially since jeter's playing defense isn't exactly a plus for him.

KH1

09-07-2006, 09:06 PM

^You ignore the whole "we can lose with you and we can lose without you" arguement. The fact that Hafner's stats compared to the 10th best DH are better than Jeter's compared to the 10th best shortstop is irrelevant--nobody's going to try and argue that Jeter is having a better statistical season than Hafner (or Ortiz, Dye, Thome, Ortiz or Morneau for that matter.)

acr*

09-07-2006, 11:01 PM

If you were starting a team and had the choice of Hafner at first and a Miguel Cairo at short or Jeter at short and a Kevin Millar at 1st, who would give you a better chance to win?

Ironchef Chris Wok*

09-07-2006, 11:52 PM

If you were starting a team and had the choice of Hafner at first and a Miguel Cairo at short or Jeter at short and a Kevin Millar at 1st, who would give you a better chance to win?

The team without Millar.

acr*

09-08-2006, 09:22 PM

David Ortiz throws his name back into the mix with another go-ahead hit in the bottom of the 8th

Unholy Diver

09-08-2006, 09:45 PM

If you were starting a team and had the choice of Hafner at first and a Miguel Cairo at short or Jeter at short and a Kevin Millar at 1st, who would give you a better chance to win?

Jeter, he just finds ways to win, whereas Hafner is an Indian so they find ways to lose

acr*

09-08-2006, 09:54 PM

Jeter, he just finds ways to win, whereas Hafner is an Indian so they find ways to lose
That is one of the most wrong arguments I've ever heard.

Unholy Diver

09-08-2006, 10:01 PM

That is one of the most wrong arguments I've ever heard.

well hang around for a few hours, you are bound to hear a dozen more just as bad or worse

Fish on The Sand

09-09-2006, 04:26 AM

That is one of the most wrong arguments I've ever heard.

haha. That was really funny seeing as Hafner is one of the most clutch players in all of baseball. I'm not sure of Jeter's clutch numbers but I will tell you they aren't as good as Pronk's. As for finding ways to lose. When hafner goes yard and puts the team up in the 9th, only for the bullpen to blow it in the bottom half, is it Hafner's fault for not hitting the ball further?

robert terwilliger

09-09-2006, 06:48 AM

just for ***** and giggles:

close and late: 7th inning on with the batting team either ahead by one run, tied or with the potential tying run at least on deck.

derek jeter:

ab:73
runs: 9
hits: 22
doubles: 3
homers: 1
rbi: 15
bb: 13
hbp: 3
k: 15
sb: 1
avg: .301
obp: .427
slg: .384
ops: .811

travis hafner:

ab: 56
runs: 8
hits: 23
doubles: 8
homers: 5
rbi: 10
bb: 13
k: 14
avg: .411
obp: .522
slg: .821
ops: 1.343

looks like hafner enjoys close and late situations.

advantage2006

09-09-2006, 01:15 PM

Why is glaus ahead of wells.Wells average is light years higher than glaus and in Sb is land slided.

Wells
Avg Hr Rbi Sb K BB OPS
313 31 94 14 81 45 932

Glaus
Avg Hr Rbi Sb K BB OPS
255 34 93 3 116 81 888

I think I made my Point:teach:

Tuggy

09-09-2006, 05:32 PM

Not saying that Frank Thomas will win the MVP but is there a more valuable player to a contending team then the Big Hurt? I mean, if you take him out of the lineup and the A's are probably not even close to where they are at.

Fish on The Sand

09-09-2006, 05:54 PM

robert terwilliger

09-09-2006, 06:51 PM

want to see something straight up sick, pull up his bases loaded numbers:D

holy ****.

hafner:

ab: 14
runs: 18
hits: 8
homers: 6
rbi: 30
hbp: 1
k: 2
avg: .571
obp: .563
slg: 1.857
ops: 2.420

jeter:

ab: 11
runs: 20
hits: 5
doubles: 2
rbi: 15
bb: 5
k: 2
avg: .455
obp: .625
slg: .636
ops: 1.261

Fish on The Sand

09-09-2006, 07:06 PM

holy ****.

hafner:

ab: 14
runs: 18
hits: 8
homers: 6
rbi: 30
hbp: 1
k: 2
avg: .571
obp: .563
slg: 1.857
ops: 2.420

jeter:

ab: 11
runs: 20
hits: 5
doubles: 2
rbi: 15
bb: 5
k: 2
avg: .455
obp: .625
slg: .636
ops: 1.261

unfortunately, that hbp ended his season, but if Cleveland was in the hunt, Hafner had to be the leading candidate. Sabathia said it best when he wondered why teams still pitched to him with the bases loaded. He has over 2 rbis for ever ab.

David Puddy

09-10-2006, 12:15 AM

unfortunately, that hbp ended his season, but if Cleveland was in the hunt, Hafner had to be the leading candidate. Sabathia said it best when he wondered why teams still pitched to him with the bases loaded. He has over 2 rbis for ever ab.I am really sorry to hear that he will miss the rest of the season. If the Indians were a contendor this year, Hafner would lead my list certainly.

naihlflames

09-10-2006, 07:02 PM

IMO Santana deserves consideration.

Fish on The Sand

09-10-2006, 07:36 PM

IMO Santana deserves consideration.

this would be the 3rd Twin mentioned for mvp consideration. So that tells me that none of them deserve it.

BuppY

09-10-2006, 08:03 PM

I'd go with Jeter. He is my favorite player so Im somewhat Bias.

The Mars Volchenkov

09-10-2006, 08:35 PM

this would be the 3rd Twin mentioned for mvp consideration. So that tells me that none of them deserve it.
True, but considering Santana has held that rotation together without Radke and Liriano is pretty damn impressive. He'll get consideration, especially since Morneau and Mauer have cooled off a bit.

Vic Rattlehead*

09-12-2006, 07:04 PM

To me, there is no clear MVP in the AL. So many candidates, but no one is really setting themselves apart from one another. Any one of Ortiz, Santana, Jeter, Morneau, Dye, and Hafner will win (although Hafner is kind of screwed being on the Indians).

88Bottles

09-12-2006, 09:39 PM

Realm

09-12-2006, 09:44 PM

Morneau with another big 2 run double to take the lead, he is the MVP!

KH1

09-12-2006, 09:50 PM

Everyone can look at all the indepth stats they want to, but I can't understand how anyone that plays for the Yankees can ever be considered for the MPV when that team is always competitive and always features a stacked lineup that doesn't rely on one player.

A-Rod winning last year was a disgrace, I mean, how can you call him the most valuable when he bats in between a lineup with Jeter, Sheffield, Giambi, Matsui and Posada.

The same this year. Everyone talks about the injuries, big deal. They still had Damon, Jeter, Arod, Giambi and Posada for most of the year. If anyone is mvp for the yanks its damon. Give me a break, without Matsui and Sheffield, that offense is still one of the best in baseball.

Last year the excuse was Ortiz didn't play defense, this year, its that numbers don't matter.

Johan Santana should be the MVP, his numbers are ridiculous and he's as valuable as Eric Gagne was when he won the cy young, but baseball will never have the balls to give the mvp to a pitcher.

The media just wants to have someone from New York in the discussions because of their mass egos.

And how come now MPV's have to come from playoff teams? I guess no one remembers A-Rod with texas getting the award on one of the worst teams that year.

MVP's have to come from playoff teams because the award is for the player most valuable to their team. How valuable has Hafner really been to Cleveland? He hasn't gotten them near the playoff race, that's for sure. Give him a silver slugger for his outstanding season and move on.

As for the media being biased towards the Yankees, you should note that of ESPN's top baseball personalities Gammons is a clear Red Sox fan, Phillips hates the Yankees because of his time with the Mets, Morgan hates both the Yankees and the Red Sox, Kruk hates the Yankees for unknown reasons (though we'll leave him out because he does seem to support Jeter) and all of ESPN.com's major players (Simmons, Caple, Stark) are professed Red Sox fans. Only Buster Olney writes with a pro-Yankees slant.

Finally, Damon as MVP is ridiculous--he's been huge for the Yankees but Jeter has carried the lineup. Voting for Damon over Jeter would be like voting for Orlando Cabrera because he's done a great job setting up Vlad Guerrero.

88Bottles

09-12-2006, 10:04 PM

MVP's have to come from playoff teams because the award is for the player most valuable to their team. How valuable has Hafner really been to Cleveland? He hasn't gotten them near the playoff race, that's for sure. Give him a silver slugger for his outstanding season and move on.

As for the media being biased towards the Yankees, you should note that of ESPN's top baseball personalities Gammons is a clear Red Sox fan, Phillips hates the Yankees because of his time with the Mets, Morgan hates both the Yankees and the Red Sox, Kruk hates the Yankees for unknown reasons (though we'll leave him out because he does seem to support Jeter) and all of ESPN.com's major players (Simmons, Caple, Stark) are professed Red Sox fans. Only Buster Olney writes with a pro-Yankees slant.

Finally, Damon as MVP is ridiculous--he's been huge for the Yankees but Jeter has carried the lineup. Voting for Damon over Jeter would be like voting for Orlando Cabrera because he's done a great job setting up Vlad Guerrero.

With the Hafner comment, I was merely using it as an example and comparison as to how A-Rod won his with Texas.

Top ESPN analysts? First off, the baseball writers of america aren't all from espn and espn is not the one and only broadcasting network on tv or radio that has an opinion.

Let's forget Damon setting up Jeter but applaud Jeter for driving him in? Let's not reward Damon for being the reason Jeter had anything to drive in the first place? Damon as MVP of the Yankees, not of the league.

And you just said MVP is the most valuable to his team, and that's exactly what it is, its not the Most Valuable to his playoff bound team? In all pro sports MVP stands for the same thing. Playoff teams in baseball generally have more than one good player on their teams and if you took that one player away, the team wouldn't suffer that much.

To me, its a travesty that the MVP award continues to revolve around the debate of stats, stature, playoff bound teams, rather than simply, what player means more to his team over the course of a season, and Derek Jeter should not even be discussed in the MVP voting.

KH1

09-12-2006, 10:23 PM

Let's forget Damon setting up Jeter but applaud Jeter for driving him in? Let's not reward Damon for being the reason Jeter had anything to drive in the first place? Damon as MVP of the Yankees, not of the league.

By doing that, you're ironically forgetting Jeter for setting up Rodriguez, Giambi and Posada (as well as knocking in Damon.) There's no doubt that Jeter is more valuable to the Yankees lineup than Damon--he's just done everything better this season except hit homeruns.

And you just said MVP is the most valuable to his team, and that's exactly what it is, its not the Most Valuable to his playoff bound team? In all pro sports MVP stands for the same thing. Playoff teams in baseball generally have more than one good player on their teams and if you took that one player away, the team wouldn't suffer that much.

It's the old arguement of "we can lose with you, we can lose without you." Hafner is valuable to a team that's 4th place in it's division--take him away and they're still 4th in their division.

To me, its a travesty that the MVP award continues to revolve around the debate of stats, stature, playoff bound teams, rather than simply, what player means more to his team over the course of a season, and Derek Jeter should not even be discussed in the MVP voting.

So it's a travesty that the MVP award revolves around stats and the award should be judged by what a player means to his team, yet Jeter should not even be discussed (though he is the clear MVP and captain of the team with the best team in baseball?) How does that make any sense?

The only way that you can not make Jeter at least a candidate is if you take the David Ortiz approach (that the MVP can only be a power hitter.)

Realm

09-12-2006, 10:26 PM

Get over it, Its Morneau and its not even close right now! If the Twins dont make the playoffs then he finishes behind at least 2 others.

88Bottles

09-12-2006, 10:43 PM

So it's a travesty that the MVP award revolves around stats and the award should be judged by what a player means to his team, yet Jeter should not even be discussed (though he is the clear MVP and captain of the team with the best team in baseball?) How does that make any sense?

The only way that you can not make Jeter at least a candidate is if you take the David Ortiz approach (that the MVP can only be a power hitter.)

How can Jeter mean so much to the richest team in baseball, stacked with stars, and yearly playoff contender picked to win again before the season even begins!

How about this making sense, because of the Yankees payroll and they lineup of stars, they have an easier road to the playoffs (not to mention they play in a division with only one team that can really compete with them)?

The central has been the most competitive division in the AL and the MVP should come from there.

David Ortiz isn't just a power hitter, he's proven that he's probably the best clutch hitter in baseball, he wins games for his team single handedly, while the Yankees win their games 12-4 or lose them 12-4.

I am a big Jeter fan, but I just don't think that a guy who plays on a the richest team in baseball, with possibly the best lineup should be considered for being most important to his team when 4 other teams have to duel it out for the last 2 months of the season while the Yankees just coast.

Oh yeah, and adding Abreu doesn't hurt their chances either.

I think maybe I'll just agree with Realm, Morneau for MVP! Oh Canada!

David Puddy

09-13-2006, 03:14 PM

Finally, Damon as MVP is ridiculous--he's been huge for the Yankees but Jeter has carried the lineup. Voting for Damon over Jeter would be like voting for Orlando Cabrera because he's done a great job setting up Vlad Guerrero.Giambi is .072 higher in OPS than Jeter. August is when the Yankees went past the Red Sox in the A.L. East.

In that pivotal month, Jeter had an .851 OPS, and Giambi's OPS was 1.124. Giambi also scored or drove in 42 runs for the Yankees to Jeter's 37.

Johnny Damon also had an OPS of .994. Bobby Abreu, acquired on July 31, had a .956 OPS with the Yankees in August. Robinson Cano had an OPS of .970 in August. And do you know what A-Rod's OPS was in August? It was .846, which is only .005 less than Jeter's OPS in August.

So to say that Jeter carried the team is wrong.

Morneau with another big 2 run double to take the lead, he is the MVP!It will be tough for him because Mauer and Santana could take away votes.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

09-13-2006, 04:05 PM

See, Ortiz was right! He's playing with a bunch of shlubs, while Jeter is surrounded by all-stars.

acr*

09-13-2006, 05:31 PM

robert terwilliger

09-13-2006, 05:32 PM

See, Ortiz was right! He's playing with a bunch of shlubs, while Jeter is surrounded by all-stars.

hey, that damn ortiz is lucky that jeter has a game tonight, 'else he'd hit behind ortiz and draw six walks and make five crazy diving catches while ortiz sat on his lazy fat ***. ****in dh's thinking they're king ****. they ain't nothing compared to the yankees!

WillardJFredricks

09-14-2006, 09:18 AM

I think the AL MVP has got to be either Justin Morneau or Johan Santana, nobody is even close to doing what these 2 are doing for Minnesota this year.

Voice of Reason

09-14-2006, 12:11 PM

Give me your top 5 in the AL and NL for the MVP Race so far. Here's mine...

AL
1. David Ortiz
2. Travis Hafner
3. Jim Thome
4. Justin Morneau
5. Vlad Guerrero

Notable Mentions
1. Derek Jeter
2. Jermaine Dye
3. Troy Gluas
4. Rual Ibanez

NL
1. Carlos Beltran
2. Albert Pujols
3. Ryan Howard
4. David Wright
5. Alfonso Soriano

Notable Mentions
1. Chase Utley
2. Andruw Jones
3. Miguel Cabrera
4. Jason Bay
5. Adam Dunn

*Ryan Howard would be my number 1 if the Phillies were in the playoffs for sure.

But that doesn't make any sense. Big Papi is most likely going to be doing the same thing you, me and Ryan Howard are gonna do...watch the playoffs on tv, so why is he still your #1? Technically, Howard has better numbers and should be more deserving than Papi.

Mine, FYI, are:
AL: any of Dye, Ortiz, Santana or Jeter
NL: any of Beltran, Pujols or Howard

Tuggy

09-18-2006, 08:07 AM

Thomas for MVP! :handclap:

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

09-18-2006, 06:28 PM

Thomas for MVP! :handclap:
lol.

13Hockey

09-18-2006, 06:29 PM

Miggy Cabrera FOr MVP

acr*

09-18-2006, 06:33 PM

Thomas is carrying Oakland's playoff hopes (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stats?playerId=6010)

13Hockey

09-18-2006, 06:36 PM

thomas is just having a hell of a year

Tuggy

09-18-2006, 07:15 PM

lol.

Without him the A's would be in last place, not 7 games in first place. Maybe he won't win but he should be in top 3 of voting.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

09-18-2006, 08:08 PM

No he shouldn't.

Tuggy

09-18-2006, 08:31 PM

No he shouldn't.

We'll see when the final votes are in. He will be in the top 3.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

09-18-2006, 08:38 PM

No he won't.

88Bottles

09-19-2006, 05:40 PM

LOL indeed!

Sorry, but Thomas is a DH, according to the baseball writers of America, DH's don't get MVP awards...if Ortiz didn't win it last year, then there is no chance in hell Thomas will.

robert terwilliger

09-19-2006, 05:55 PM

LOL indeed!

Sorry, but Thomas is a DH, according to the baseball writers of America, DH's don't get MVP awards...if Ortiz didn't win it last year, then there is no chance in hell Thomas will.

hafner > thomas.

Tuggy

09-19-2006, 05:59 PM

He probably won't win but he will finish 2nd or 3rd behind Dye and/or Jeter. I'm of the opinion that you need to play on a winning ball club to win MVP.

KH1

09-19-2006, 06:33 PM

Thomas needs to be considered for the MVP, but ultimately it's tough to make a case for him over Jeter when you compare their numbers. I bet Kenny Williams wishes he had gotten some value for the Big Hurt though.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

09-19-2006, 06:58 PM

Jeter, Ortiz, Dye, Morneau, and possibly Santana, will all finish ahead of Thomas, as they should. Mauer should, too, as well as Carlos Guillen. Players like Hafner, Manny, Vernon Wells, and Miguel Tejada, among others, have all been better, but aren't likely to recieve much attention.

robert terwilliger

09-19-2006, 07:00 PM

David Puddy

09-20-2006, 05:33 AM

hafner > thomas.Hafner is way better than Thomas this year, but Hafner was on a team that fell out of the playoff race fairly quickly. Hafner also got hurt and will miss the last 25 games of the season, so it would be tough for him to get many first place votes.

robert terwilliger

09-20-2006, 02:33 PM

i agree that hafner missing the rest of the season will have an effect on votes, but any voter who discounts him because the indians just didn't put it all together this year should be slapped.

Captain Marleau

09-20-2006, 03:17 PM

Frank Thomas should win the MVP this year. He's carrying this team on his shoulders averaging a homer every 11 AB's.

Starscream

09-20-2006, 03:31 PM

Thomas for MVP! :handclap:

I would definetly vote for Thomas over Jeter. Take Thomoas out of the A's lineup and they probably don't score any runs. Take Jeter out of the Yankees lineup and they still have to best lineup in Baseball.

My vote would be for Morneau, Dye, Ortiz, Thomas, ect... way before Jeter

the only way an MVP should have less then 20 homeruns is if he is a pitcher.

KH1

09-20-2006, 06:04 PM

I would definetly vote for Thomas over Jeter. Take Thomoas out of the A's lineup and they probably don't score any runs. Take Jeter out of the Yankees lineup and they still have to best lineup in Baseball.

My vote would be for Morneau, Dye, Ortiz, Thomas, ect... way before Jeter

the only way an MVP should have less then 20 homeruns is if he is a pitcher.
I guess you're forgetting that for much of the season the Yankees were starting Bernie Williams, Melky Cabrera, Miguel Cairo and Andy Phillips everyday. Take Jeter out of the Yankees lineup and the Red Sox would've sewn up the AL East in July.

As for your 20 homerun theory, it's stupid. Give Travis Hafner a silver slugger award, save the award for most valuable player for the player who actually helps his team win games.

KesselBuiltMyHotrod

09-20-2006, 07:33 PM

Take Jeter out of the Yankees lineup and the Red Sox would've sewn up the AL East in July.
Please. No player is that valuable. Jeter's WARP is 8.7. THT Win Shares Above Bench has him at 19, 6.3 wins.The Yankees would still be in first without him.

David Puddy

09-20-2006, 09:25 PM

Please. No player is that valuable. Jeter's WARP is 8.7. THT Win Shares Above Bench has him at 19, 6.3 wins.The Yankees would still be in first without him.No kidding! I thought I established that Jeter didn't carry the team in my post #145 of this thread, yet Chairman Steinbrenner still buys into the Jeter hype.

A-Rod has a higher OPS than Jeter. A-Rod also has 116 RBIs and 106 runs scored compared to Jeter's 110 runs scored and 95 RBIs. Also, A-Rod is a better fielding short stop, but Princess Jeter would not think of moving to thirdbase for the betterment of the team.

KH1

09-20-2006, 09:47 PM

No kidding! I thought I established that Jeter didn't carry the team in my post #145 of this thread, yet Chairman Steinbrenner still buys into the Jeter hype.

A-Rod has a higher OPS than Jeter. A-Rod also has 116 RBIs and 106 runs scored compared to Jeter's 110 runs scored and 95 RBIs. Also, A-Rod is a better fielding short stop, but Princess Jeter would not think of moving to thirdbase for the betterment of the team.
How can you try and compare Jeter, a leadoff/#2 hitter, with A-Rod, a cleanup hitter, using OPS? Of course A-Rod has a higher OPS than Jeter--he's paid to be a power hitter and have a huge slugging %!

It's worth noting that Jeter has 200 hits this season to Rodriguez's 157, he is hitting .339 to A-Rod's .284, he has an OBP of .414 to A-Rod's .384, and he has struck out 98 times to Rodriguez's whopping 138. In fact, Jeter is trumping A-Rod in pretty much all non-power related hitting categories.

As for fielding, Rodriguez's problems this season speak for themselves (his errors have come mainly on lazy footwork and poor throws, neither of which would be any better at shortstop.) It's also worth noting that A-Rod at 3rd is much better for the team than Jeter at 3rd (they're more or less equivalent shortstops but Rodriguez has far better reaction time which is critical for the hot corner while Jeter's ability to play popups into the outfield would be neutralized at 3rd.)

88Bottles

09-20-2006, 10:35 PM

The bottom line about why Jeter should not be MVP, is that the Yankees, with their stacked lineup aside, get to basically coast for most of the last 2 months of the season while the three teams in the central are still battling it out to take 2 playoff spots. Abreu has been with the team since the end of July so he has helped make Jeter look better.

Dye and Morneau mean more to their teams right now than Derek Jeter and which ever's team makes the playoffs should be the MVP because he (Dye or Morneau) have had more pressure and have meant more to their teams success over the last 2 months of the season than has Derek Jeter.

The MVP isn't awarded before August.

KH1

09-21-2006, 04:54 PM

88Bottles

09-21-2006, 07:28 PM

So your arguement is that Jeter shouldn't win the MVP because he did too good of a job leading his team to the playoffs?

My argument is that Jeter's team was beyond good enough to get by in a weak division without him, therefore justifying my argument that he shouldn't be awarded the MVP. Before Abreu even joined the team their lineup consisted of Damon, Jeter, Giambi, A-Rod, Posada and Cano...Sheffield and Matsui gone? Cry me a river, that lineup is better than 80% of the teams in baseball and most of their victories have been blowouts. So remind me again of how he would be more important to a team than let's say Vladimir Guerrero, who plays on one of the worst offensive teams in baseball?

The fact that the Yankees were in control of a playoff spot more so than the Tigers/Twins/White Sox proves that the Yankees lineup is so good that one guy cannot be relied upon to carry the load, hence, Derek Jeter is not more important to the Yankees than Morneau and Dye have been to their teams.

KH1

09-21-2006, 08:49 PM

My argument is that Jeter's team was beyond good enough to get by in a weak division without him, therefore justifying my argument that he shouldn't be awarded the MVP. Before Abreu even joined the team their lineup consisted of Damon, Jeter, Giambi, A-Rod, Posada and Cano...Sheffield and Matsui gone? Cry me a river, that lineup is better than 80% of the teams in baseball and most of their victories have been blowouts. So remind me again of how he would be more important to a team than let's say Vladimir Guerrero, who plays on one of the worst offensive teams in baseball?

The fact that the Yankees were in control of a playoff spot more so than the Tigers/Twins/White Sox proves that the Yankees lineup is so good that one guy cannot be relied upon to carry the load, hence, Derek Jeter is not more important to the Yankees than Morneau and Dye have been to their teams.
First of all, Cano missed 6 weeks this summer. Secondly, until the August 18th 5 game series the Yankees were essentially deadlocked with the Sox--after sweeping that series (largely on the strength of Jeter's clutch hitting, I might add) they ran away with the division (largely on the strength of Jeter's outstanding month--since August 6th he's had as many 3 hit games as 0 hit games.)

The fact that Jeter led the Yankees to burying the competition in their division despite being ahead by only 2.5 games one month ago should count in his favor, not against him.

acr*

09-21-2006, 10:10 PM

First of all, Cano missed 6 weeks this summer. Secondly, until the August 18th 5 game series the Yankees were essentially deadlocked with the Sox--after sweeping that series (largely on the strength of Jeter's clutch hitting, I might add) they ran away with the division (largely on the strength of Jeter's outstanding month--since August 6th he's had as many 3 hit games as 0 hit games.)

The fact that Jeter led the Yankees to burying the competition in their division despite being ahead by only 2.5 games one month ago should count in his favor, not against him.
You're completely discrediting everyone else in that lineup that helped them the past month. Wang and Mussina pitched out of their heads, Johnson's turned it around, A-Rod and Giambi have been racking up numbers, Abreu's always on base. I'd have to disagree with the idea that Jeter makes that offense click. I'd personally say that Giambi and Abreu in the 3 and 4 holes are more responsible for runs scoring than Jeter.

Piggish

09-24-2006, 06:54 AM

My argument is that Jeter's team was beyond good enough to get by in a weak division without him, therefore justifying my argument that he shouldn't be awarded the MVP.

I don't see why a player should be punished for playing for a good or a bad team. The MVP award should be about the player's contribution, not the context in which he made the contribution (beyond taking into account the ways in which the context affected the player's performance).

Being in the middle of a competitive race for a playoff spot may help a candidate, but traditionally it hasn't been a requirement. I doubt the Yankees' performance will hurt Jeter much if at all.

Having written that, I'd still vote for Joe Mauer. He has provided better hitting and better defense than Jeter. The main downside to his candidacy - and it's a considerable one - is that due to the rigors of being a catcher, he hasn't played at much as Jeter.

David Puddy

09-24-2006, 07:37 AM

I don't see why a player should be punished for playing for a good or a bad team. The MVP award should be about the player's contribution, not the context in which he made the contribution (beyond taking into account the ways in which the context affected the player's performance).

Being in the middle of a competitive race for a playoff spot may help a candidate, but traditionally it hasn't been a requirement. I doubt the Yankees' performance will hurt Jeter much if at all.

Having written that, I'd still vote for Joe Mauer. He has provided better hitting and better defense than Jeter. The main downside to his candidacy - and it's a considerable one - is that due to the rigors of being a catcher, he hasn't played at much as Jeter.There is more pressure and more meaning in playing for a playoff spot. If a hitter is going up against some AA pitcher that the Kansas City Royals have on the mound in September because that hitters team is also out of the playoff race, it is not as impressive as a guy who is coming up to the plate with the season on the line.

As for Joe Mauer, I think the rigors of catching should be taken into consideration when looking at him for A.L. MVP. Those guys take a pounding back there over the course of a long baseball season.

Mauer does have a couple of teammates that will work against him though, Morneau and Santana. All three of them are certainly very important to the Twins success this season. They could easily split votes from the Midwestern sports writers who see the three of them often.

robert terwilliger

09-24-2006, 01:29 PM

There is more pressure and more meaning in playing for a playoff spot. If a hitter is going up against some AA pitcher that the Kansas City Royals have on the mound in September because that hitters team is also out of the playoff race, it is not as impressive as a guy who is coming up to the plate with the season on the line.

what about the mvp candidates that are on winning teams that face the not-so-best on non-playoff teams? is that taken into consideration as well, or ignored?

jeter got to face tampa and baltimore pitching just as much as hafner faced kansas city's pitching.

naihlflames

09-24-2006, 05:29 PM

There has been a ton of Jeter for MVP talk and several Twins mentioned. I think Carlos Guillen should be considered. Lets compare Guillen and Jeter.

Jeter has Guillen on average with .339 to .317.
Guillen has Jeter in slugging % .525 to .479.
Guillen has Jeter in OPS .923 to .892.
Guillen has Jeter in extra base hits 65 to 53 with 80 less at bats.
Down the stretch in September: Guillen is hitting .389 with a .722 sluggling % , Jeter is .333 and .460

Guillen may not be well known on the East coast and Jeter is a better player with a Hall of Fame career. However, for this year and what he has meant for his team I vote for Carlos Guillen over Derek Jeter. Guillen has had a magical season.

robert terwilliger

09-24-2006, 08:29 PM

if carlos guillen finishes in the top five, i'll eat my hat.

naihlflames

09-24-2006, 08:51 PM

if carlos guillen finishes in the top five, i'll eat my hat.

You are probably right, but look at two things with Guillen vs. Jeter when you try to determine who is more valuable (this year).

#1: Look at Guillen's numbers vs Jeter from the other post. Guillen's numbers are just as good if not better.

#2: Do the Yankees make the playoffs without Jeter and do the Tigers make the playoffs without Guillen? My guess is the Yankees would and the Tigers would not.

WILDTATE10

09-24-2006, 09:33 PM

Justin Morneau = MVP

No way teh twins are where they are without morneau.

Fish on The Sand

09-24-2006, 10:06 PM

what about the mvp candidates that are on winning teams that face the not-so-best on non-playoff teams? is that taken into consideration as well, or ignored?

jeter got to face tampa and baltimore pitching just as much as hafner faced kansas city's pitching.

yes, but Jeter also got to face Toronto and Boston's pitching while Hafner had to face Chicago and Minnesota's.

robert terwilliger

09-25-2006, 04:51 AM

Justin Morneau = MVP

No way teh twins are where they are without morneau.

while you've watched more games than i have, i'm thinking that santana and mauer are a touch more valuable than morneau on the twinkies.

WILDTATE10

09-25-2006, 06:02 PM

while you've watched more games than i have, i'm thinking that santana and mauer are a touch more valuable than morneau on the twinkies.

As good as Santana has been for him to win MVP he would need at least 20 wins and the Twins are probably gonna rest him until playoffs. As good as Mauer has been all season those 81 RBIs probably wont cut it for those judges. Morneau on the other hand is the first Twins since i think 91 to hit 30 homers and he is leading the league in game winning RBIs and i think he has around 125 on the season so should finish somewhere in the 130's.

As for the other canidates.
Ortiz has had a great season but his team just droped out of it a month ago.
With the white sox not making the playoffs i think that pretty much ruins Dyes chances.
Jeter has had a great season but in no way has he been more Valuable then Morneau, not to mention he hits in a lineup full Extremely good hitters. If Jeter win it they might as well call it YMVP, Yankees Most Valuable Player

robert terwilliger

09-25-2006, 06:58 PM

As good as Santana has been for him to win MVP he would need at least 20 wins and the Twins are probably gonna rest him until playoffs. As good as Mauer has been all season those 81 RBIs probably wont cut it for those judges. Morneau on the other hand is the first Twins since i think 91 to hit 30 homers and he is leading the league in game winning RBIs and i think he has around 125 on the season so should finish somewhere in the 130's.

mauer's numbers are underrated since they're coming from the catcher. a good offensive catcher is more valuable than a good offensive first baseman.

and santana's wins aren't enough to dismiss him. before the loss to the red sox last week, he hadn't lost since july 9th, going 9-0, with 113k.

post all-star break numbers on santana:

2.57
9-1
94.2 innings
72 hits
31 runs (27 earned)
10 hr
23 bb
102 k
.207 average against

KH1

09-25-2006, 08:55 PM

You are probably right, but look at two things with Guillen vs. Jeter when you try to determine who is more valuable (this year).

#1: Look at Guillen's numbers vs Jeter from the other post. Guillen's numbers are just as good if not better.

Guillen's having a great season, but you basically posted a bunch of power numbers that Guillen is leading Jeter in. Jeter is not a power hitter, but he is leading Guillen in OBP .415 to .398, in hits 205 to 164, in RBI 96 to 80, in stolen bases 32 to 19, and is playing a better defensive shortstop.

#2: Do the Yankees make the playoffs without Jeter and do the Tigers make the playoffs without Guillen? My guess is the Yankees would and the Tigers would not.

The Yankees would not have made the playoffs this year without Jeter and that's a fact you can take to the bank. Missing Matsui, Sheffield, Cano and Jeter from the lineup the Yankees would've been out of contention by July and the Abreu/Wilson deals never would've been made.

The Tigers wouldn't make the playoffs without Guillen either, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that his value this season measures up to Jeter's, Morneau's or Mauer's (though he'd certainly get my vote over Travis Hafner:shakehead )

naihlflames

09-25-2006, 09:14 PM

The Tigers wouldn't make the playoffs without Guillen either, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that his value this season measures up to Jeter's, Morneau's or Mauer's (though he'd certainly get my vote over Travis Hafner:shakehead )

In my honest opinion I would give it to Morneau with heavy consideration for Ortiz. However, I've seen a ton of Jeter post. I think Jeter is great, but far from MVP worthy. imo Guillen has had a better season than Jeter, Guillen is not that well known, and I figured I throw his name out there.

mug3n

09-25-2006, 09:19 PM

The Yankees would not have made the playoffs this year without Jeter and that's a fact you can take to the bank. Missing Matsui, Sheffield, Cano and Jeter from the lineup the Yankees would've been out of contention by July and the Abreu/Wilson deals never would've been made.

The Tigers wouldn't make the playoffs without Guillen either, don't get me wrong. I just don't think that his value this season measures up to Jeter's, Morneau's or Mauer's (though he'd certainly get my vote over Travis Hafner:shakehead )

So if the Yankees lost 1 guy (Jeter) instead of 3 (Matsui, Sheffield, Cano), you're saying that the Yankees wouldn't win the division? Come on, you can't honestly discount the offensive power that those 3 guys added to the team. Losing Jeter does not hurt the team in terms of production. The Yankees would've been close to the chase, at the very least, by the trade deadline, and they would've pulled some sort of blockbuster deal that could add a power-bat to replace Jeter if he was injured. It's how they've been taking this division for the last couple of seasons, by opening up the bank for expensive, rental players. Anyone is replaceable in the Yankees if the situation calls for it.

WILDTATE10

09-25-2006, 10:49 PM

mauer's numbers are underrated since they're coming from the catcher. a good offensive catcher is more valuable than a good offensive first baseman.

and santana's wins aren't enough to dismiss him. before the loss to the red sox last week, he hadn't lost since july 9th, going 9-0, with 113k.

post all-star break numbers on santana:

2.57
9-1
94.2 innings
72 hits
31 runs (27 earned)
10 hr
23 bb
102 k
.207 average against

Even everyone on the Twins team knows that Morneau is the MVP. WHile they were celebrating they were yelling MVP for Morneau.

Hockeyfan02

09-26-2006, 12:35 AM

(though he'd certainly get my vote over Travis Hafner:shakehead )

How is Guillen more valuable than Hafner because Guillen's team is having a better year than Hafner's team? Because statistically, Hafner is having a better season, Guillen is having a good season himself. If the Indians had the same pitching the Tigers did, Hafner would be the MVP by a wide margin and there would be no debate.

If the MVP has to be on a playoff team, it should go to Joe Mauer.

KH1

09-26-2006, 07:44 AM

So if the Yankees lost 1 guy (Jeter) instead of 3 (Matsui, Sheffield, Cano), you're saying that the Yankees wouldn't win the division? Come on, you can't honestly discount the offensive power that those 3 guys added to the team. Losing Jeter does not hurt the team in terms of production. The Yankees would've been close to the chase, at the very least, by the trade deadline, and they would've pulled some sort of blockbuster deal that could add a power-bat to replace Jeter if he was injured. It's how they've been taking this division for the last couple of seasons, by opening up the bank for expensive, rental players. Anyone is replaceable in the Yankees if the situation calls for it.

:dunno: I never said that at all. When did the criteria for the MVP become "if every player on the team is healthy except for the MVP, would they make the playoffs?"

The fact of the matter is that Sheffield, Matsui and Cano (plus the pitching staff on and off) were injured longterm and without Jeter the Yankees wouldn't have been close enough to the race to warrant making a big move.

Piggish

09-26-2006, 09:04 AM

David Puddy

09-26-2006, 12:22 PM

Consider the following players:

JM #1: a catcher, one of the best defensively at his position, hits .432 OBP + .503 SLG = .931 OPS, third among catchers in plate appearances.

JM #2: a first baseman, average defensively at his position, hits .380 OBP + .570 SLG = .950 OPS, fourth among first basemen in plate appearances.

Who would you pick? I'd choose JM #1, i.e. Mauer, with no hesitation. Nevertheless, many people, even supposed baseball experts, would look at RBIs, game-winning RBIs, HRs, and other assorted slugger-friendly statistics, and determine that JM #2, i.e. Morneau, is more valuable. I've heard that chicks dig the long ball, but this is getting ridiculous.And Nerds dig. Did Bill James or Squiggy ever actually play baseball?

The reason players go to bat is to either drive runs in or get on base so someone can drive them in. OPS is a fine statistic that can tell us a player's ability reach base (OBA) and the quality of hits (SLG.) But a little bloop single that drives two runs in is much better than a two out triple with no one on especially if the guy getting the triple is stranded on third.

Ironchef Chris Wok*

09-26-2006, 12:34 PM

And Nerds dig. Did Bill James or Squiggy ever actually play baseball?

The reason players go to bat is to either drive runs in or get on base so someone can drive them in. OPS is a fine statistic that can tell us a player's ability reach base (OBA) and the quality of hits (SLG.) But a little bloop single that drives two runs in is much better than a two out triple with no one on especially if the guy getting the triple is stranded on third.

A little bloops single that drives 2 runs in when you're down 12 is worse than a triple with 2 outs and nobody on when you're down 1.

If you want to talk leverage, then bring up the data. I don't have it, I'm too lazy to get it, but if the leverage data is there.

Piggish

09-26-2006, 02:44 PM

If you want to talk leverage, then bring up the data. I don't have it, I'm too lazy to get it, but if the leverage data is there.

If we're talking about Win Probability Added, here's the AL leaderboard for batters (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=al&qual=y&type=0&season=2006). As we can see, David Ortiz holds a big lead, followed by Derek Jeter, Jermaine Dye, and Morneau in that order. Mauer is 16th, just behind Michael Young and Mike Cuddyer.