Why won't AM dress an enforcer?

Semenko
11-14-2003, 07:47 PM
Hey Friends and Neighbors. I had a thought I figured I'd share.

I go to about 25 Kings games a year because they are local and not the ducks. But, I grew up in Philly and my heart is still with the Flyers. I'm almost a Kings fan, but my heart still isn't there yet.

Anyway, since I was a kid, I've embraced the phisical dimension of hockey. I think it is a great part of the game.

Andy Murry seems to think that fighting is a negative for the game. I think that is a valid opinion, but I disagree.

Here is the part that bothers me. Andy Murry won't dress an enforcer. If, "sportsmanship" is so important then why dress Avery. Clearly he doesn't bring skill to the team. He runs his mouth to the point of angering other people. Where is the sportsmanship in that instance.

I personally think that to put a player on the ice that antagonizes players like Avery and expect a friendly game of hockey is just dumb.

With that tactic I personally hope Ziggy gets run every night.

My point is, play a phisical game or shut up and behave.

Legionnaire
11-14-2003, 08:44 PM
I'm not totally sure that "sportsmanship" is the case, but more the fact that we don't have an enforcer that can really play a regular shift.

maximil
11-14-2003, 09:06 PM
Your wrong. Andy Murray loves physical hockey. I think if we had an enforcer who could play at an NHL level things might be different.

David A. Rainer
11-14-2003, 10:53 PM
Nice try with the thread title, but that one isn't going to last. Besides, you didn't even spell some of the words right. If you don't like what it has been changed to, please feel free to suggest a new title and I will change it.

Face Wash
11-15-2003, 03:50 AM
Nice try with the thread title, but that one isn't going to last. Besides, you didn't even spell some of the words right. If you don't like what it has been changed to, please feel free to suggest a new title and I will change it.

What was the original title? I'm sure Andy Murry would want to know. Mainly so he could send Kip Brennan over to this guy's house. :joker:

Semenko
11-15-2003, 04:51 AM
Good example of why I just can't get into LA hockey. A valid argument is brought up and rather then disagree with it you attack me for spelling errors I made. Pretty weak. Pretty pathetic. Pretty LA.

How about you blame the officiating or something too.

What was the original title? I'm sure Andy Murry would want to know. Mainly so he could send Kip Brennan over to this guy's house. :joker:

BINGO
11-15-2003, 07:38 AM
Good example of why I just can't get into LA hockey. A valid argument is brought up and rather then disagree with it you attack me for spelling errors I made. Pretty weak. Pretty pathetic. Pretty LA.

How about you blame the officiating or something too.


I hear you......

David A. Rainer
11-15-2003, 08:09 AM
Good example of why I just can't get into LA hockey. A valid argument is brought up and rather then disagree with it you attack me for spelling errors I made. Pretty weak. Pretty pathetic. Pretty LA.

How about you blame the officiating or something too.

OK... first off, you're not saying anything I hadn't already gone round in circles on with Arankys. So instead, I just chose to stay out of this one. I meant only to point out that the title is not allowed by HF guidelines. I meant only as a sidenote that, what you believed was a cleaver little title, wasn't even spelled right.

The purpose was to allow you an opportunity to create a new title. The alternative (which is what the other mods are suggesting I do) is delete the thread altogether. I don't want to do that. But instead, you choose to take it as a personal attack and criticize LA (as if I represent LA or in some way am from LA or am living in LA). Pretty weak, pretty pathetic. Have a little more self-esteem than that. Again, is there a different title you'd like me to change it to?

But I appreciate your feedback. If you have any other questions or comments, please feel free to ask.

David A. Rainer
11-15-2003, 08:15 AM
What was the original title? I'm sure Andy Murry would want to know. Mainly so he could send Kip Brennan over to this guy's house. :joker:

Something about someone renting his services out by the hour.

Semenko
11-15-2003, 08:34 AM
I actually got all that from you the first time around and think you did a fine job moderating this thread.

I was responding to the other guy. Look the quote in my response. It wasn't you.

Sorry for the confusion.

OK... first off, you're not saying anything I hadn't already gone round in circles on with Arankys. So instead, I just chose to stay out of this one. I meant only to point out that the title is not allowed by HF guidelines. I meant only as a sidenote that, what you believed was a cleaver little title, wasn't even spelled right.

The purpose was to allow you an opportunity to create a new title. The alternative (which is what the other mods are suggesting I do) is delete the thread altogether. I don't want to do that. But instead, you choose to take it as a personal attack and criticize LA (as if I represent LA or in some way am from LA or am living in LA). Pretty weak, pretty pathetic. Have a little more self-esteem than that. Again, is there a different title you'd like me to change it to?

But I appreciate your feedback. If you have any other questions or comments, please feel free to ask.

swinginutter*
11-15-2003, 08:37 AM
I don't know the rules but I stand by "Semenko's" words. I've been crying about it all year on other threads. He's dead on with his assessment. Ziggy will get clobbered every night, and we won't do ***** about it. And all you people that use that lame excuse that we have no one that can play a regular shift is just plain lame. I don't buy it for one second. If they can skate in this league, which they have why are they not entitled to a regular shift. It's an excuse on all of our parts and our coaching staff. Flinn and Brennan came into camp in top shape, and they won't get a game. Try looking at all other twenty nine teams in this league, and then you can justify it.

Also note, I asked AM myself on lakings.com, but my question got chopped in half. Your answer is right there, and i've said it all along. My whole question read like this. (the second half)
How do you base your decision come game night regarding the fourth line? It is in my opinion that teams take libirties on our star players, and we don't have the likes of Brennan or Flinn to police the situations.

Something to that sort........But none the less I got the answer I was expecting. Bottom line is for whatever reason he just won't play them. I'm about to go to the St. Louis game and I expect the same. It should look something like Chris Pronger taking major league runs at Ziggy and nobody doing d*ck about it. Pretty much the same way all of our other star players going down. I guess we're waiting for some more key players to go down. It's sickening.

Legionnaire
11-16-2003, 09:02 PM
Andy Murray is the ultimate non-fighting Bettman style coach. Any player who publicly admits he wont send his players to retaliate against cheap shots is asking for trouble.

When was this?

Skebo
11-16-2003, 09:30 PM
Good too see a few Kings fans who realize this i made a post about this and got attacked by the anti-fighting kings fans who dont see the need for playing toughness. With the Kings only having 2 players with a remote possibilty of dropping the gloves (Lappy and Avery) it makes them the wimpiest team in the league. Even teams like Ottawa,Anaheim and Montreal are much tougher and have more players who will play the "team game" and stand up for each other.

Andy Murray is the ultimate non-fighting Bettman style coach. Any player who publicly admits he wont send his players to retaliate against cheap shots is asking for trouble.

Since my Why dont teams pound the Kings post record 0-1-1

You're an idiot. So opposing coaches are looking to YOU for tips?! HAH!!!

I don't know how many times you have to be told this... You don't know the difference between toughness and goonery. If you want fights go order some tapes from the 70's.

c-carp
11-16-2003, 10:36 PM
You're an idiot. So opposing coaches are looking to YOU for tips?! HAH!!!

I don't know how many times you have to be told this... You don't know the difference between toughness and goonery. If you want fights go order some tapes from the 70's.Hockey was much better in the 70's. Go watch Tennis. I dont know how Murray with a straght face can Dress Avery over Brennan Or Flinn. Avery is another one of those overrated Pests like Tyson Nash.

David A. Rainer
11-16-2003, 11:17 PM
"All that we would have done would have been to give Buffalo more satisfaction by putting them on the power play. The most important thing for us was trying to win the game. The thing that I didn't like was not that Adam Mair was not challenged, but that we didn't hit their key players enough and make it tough on their key players." - AM

Sounds about right. One goon challenging another goon never has and never will change anything. I can just see it now... "ohhhhhhh, look, their goon is fighting our goon... I'd better stop hitting their skill players... I'm sooooo scared... what if he goes after me...boooohooooo..." HAHAHAHAHA! NEVER WILL HAPPEN! If another team is going to take runs at your players, what the hell is challenging their goon to a fight going to do? Absolutely squat because half the time it isn't the goon taking the runs. So what about challenging the player who is actually taking the run? Almost every time they freakin' turtle-shell and get a powerplay (game #3 of the 1998 playoff series between the Kings and Blues is a perfect example) or back off and run and let the goon handle the dirty work. Again, absolutely squat is accomplished!

Respond in kind - take runs at their players and see how they like it. Get rid of this stupid unwritten rule that you don't hit skill players in open ice (a la Stevens on Kariya during last year's playoffs) But challenging them to a fight? It doesn't get more lame than that. A lot of chest beating and NO punches being landed and even less with any kind of an effect.

The object of the game is to win and fighting should be a means to that end. Fighting solely for the sake of fighting without furthering the ultimate end is a waste of time. Get rid of the instigator penalty and then we'll talk!

David A. Rainer
11-16-2003, 11:18 PM
If the personal attacks don't cease in this thread, I'm going to be forced to close it down.

Game Misconduct
11-17-2003, 12:25 AM
I agree. Murray scratches Brennan when he shouldn't, and he doesn't allow our guys to retaliate when the other team gets chippy. This results in Palffy, Lubo and Robitaille having targets on their heads.

I think this causes injuries and sometimes costs us games. We get worn down by the other team and fold in the third. I love AM as a coach, but this is an aspect of his philosophy that drives me insane.

MOOSE55
11-17-2003, 07:16 AM
Good too see a few Kings fans who realize this i made a post about this and got attacked by the anti-fighting kings fans who dont see the need for playing toughness. With the Kings only having 2 players with a remote possibilty of dropping the gloves (Lappy and Avery) it makes them the wimpiest team in the league. Even teams like Ottawa,Anaheim and Montreal are much tougher and have more players who will play the "team game" and stand up for each other.

Andy Murray is the ultimate non-fighting Bettman style coach. Any player who publicly admits he wont send his players to retaliate against cheap shots is asking for trouble.

Since my Why dont teams pound the Kings post record 0-1-1

Enough already Arankys.......you're starting to become a bit of a troll.....you've expressed yourself on the subject several times already. I hate the Leafs but I don't go on the Leaf board telling them that. So to some it up ARANKYS THINKS THE KINGS AREN'T A TOUGH TEAM AND ARE EASILY PUSHED AROUND BY OTHER TEAMS ..........Thanks for your input now leave us alone already!

MOOSE55
11-17-2003, 07:18 AM
Hockey was much better in the 70's. Go watch Tennis. I dont know how Murray with a straght face can Dress Avery over Brennan Or Flinn. Avery is another one of those overrated Pests like Tyson Nash.
Batman goes to fight the nasty Kings fans.......in comes Robin to watch his back!

Skebo
11-17-2003, 07:56 AM
Well considering those comments are coming from an idiot like you they mean nothing.
If i want fights or physical play there are plenty of teams who dont play a Euro-pansy disney game made for figure skating fans like you that your god Andy Murray loves. Its funny how most of this sites anti-fight posters happen to be kings fans. I feel sorry for posters like Swingingutter,Semenko etc. When you guys go to games are there actual wimps like "skebo" yelling mad about a fight breaking out?

Sorry, I forgot to mention this. But you've been on my ignore list for some time, so just don't bother. Just go back to your home at the Goons forum.

punchy1
11-17-2003, 09:11 AM
Here is the way I tend to see it. Hockey sure is more fun to watch when I see the games on the classic channel. I love watching the fights and think that you can easily extrapolate the amount of injuries to our key players directly with our coaches lack of desire to allow his team to play with a chippy edge.

I don't know if it is correct, but it certainly can be argued and with validity at that. I feel that if our team would stand up for the cheap shots that happen to us ALL OF THE TIME or even play in a like manner that we might not see so many of our key players injured all of the time.

The trouble that I can see with fighting is that it used to be a requirement of *every* player to be able to fight or at least be tough enough to stand up for themselves. Now, sadly, we have two types (maybe 3) of players largely where physical play is concerned. One is the goon or thug. The teams fighter that goes out and makes everyone on the ice know that if they take cheap with anyone on the ice at the time he is out there that he will fight them. (unfortunately, the opposition sends out its goon and all we tend to see is two goons fighting)
The other one is the player who knows they can't or won't fight so they look for the opportunity to either injure another player by playing cheap with their sticks or they will make a late hit.

The third (maybe) type of player is the one that will fight when he needs to but is afraid to do so because of coaching etc.

Just my thoughts on the subject. Fighting used to have it's place and the game was better for it. Now it is just kind of a side show and AM has certainly let us know that he doesn't want his players to play chippy hockey.

swinginutter*
11-17-2003, 10:03 AM
Since Brennan and Peters went at it in LA, Brennan hasn't got another game, maybe because they did the old minor league "spin" the helmets on the ice and duke it out. Maybe there isn't a place for that in this league for some of you pansies, but it sure as ***** brings entertainment to the fans. It didn't prove anything and it didn't protect our star players. But if i'm Kip Brennan and I know that AM is going to give me two shifts at best, i'm going to get me some. The bottom line is Kip Brennan knows his role, and he can be a decent player. He has the size we need to go to the front of the net, but we'll just never give him that opportunity. I'm not saying put him on the first or second line but give him that same opportunity that he's given to Sim, Pirnes, Brown, and Chartrand. Every time he steps on the ice everybody thinks he'll take the stupid penalties, which is not entirely true. I don't know how many more times we can say it, but we have a soft mentality. I've gone to most games this year, including pre-season, prospect camp, and practices. He played Brennan and Flinn, I think twice together and when I went to the Vegas game nobody wanted them. And, that's including Worrell, and Cummins. They bring presence which we need...big time! How bout' this for an idea. When semi healthy!

1.) Palffy - Army (when he gets back) - Frolov
2.) Robitaille - Stumpel (when he gets back) - Cammy
(two scoring lines, the way it should be)
3.) Avery - Belanger - Lappy
(third line - checking line...or AM's version stopper line)
4.) Brennan - Pirnes - Flinn/Sim/Brown

Our D is to pathetic to go over. Just look at our second line PP. Also soft minus Norstrom.

David A. Rainer
11-17-2003, 10:55 AM
The guy I'd like in there on an 82 games a year basis is Brad Norton. He'll give the physical presence you're looking for and can produce both as a d-man and a winger. Unfortunately, wrist surgery has put him out for a couple of months.

swinginutter*
11-18-2003, 08:37 AM
The guy I'd like in there on an 82 games a year basis is Brad Norton. He'll give the physical presence you're looking for and can produce both as a d-man and a winger. Unfortunately, wrist surgery has put him out for a couple of months.

I agree completely, but I feel AM would have him in and out of the line-up. He looked really good in camp, a lot better than last year. I hope he gets a crack, but I have to see it to believe it.

Old Hickory
11-18-2003, 08:42 AM
Part of may be our lack of a penalty kill. Enforcers take alot of penalties. Our PK is more than awful

guzmania
11-18-2003, 09:13 AM
I miss the days when Lappy would just paste everthing that moved to the wall. That got the other guys attention. Now that line wants to get all skilled and be the slicky boys. That will not pass muster. There is no argument, in my mind, that that attitude moves away from the physical presence we need. Penalties should be taken, and taken in the context of the way the game is played. We need some good old fashioned elbows, roughs and charges, not instigators, misconducts and waterski hooks.

swinginutter*
11-18-2003, 10:14 AM
I miss the days when Lappy would just paste everthing that moved to the wall. That got the other guys attention. Now that line wants to get all skilled and be the slicky boys. That will not pass muster. There is no argument, in my mind, that that attitude moves away from the physical presence we need. Penalties should be taken, and taken in the context of the way the game is played. We need some good old fashioned elbows, roughs and charges, not instigators, misconducts and waterski hooks.

Exactly! And, I truly feel that has a lot to do with AM. I don't know if anyone remembers, but Belanger was on of our top hitters, 2/3 years ago......haven't seen it in a real long time. Our mentality is just plain scary. I was watching the Buffalo/Ottawa game last night and you should have heard the announcers. They were asking for a dirty hit, an elbow, a fight, anything to spark some kind of emotion. Our game right now is just plain dull. I almost fell asleep at the St. Louis game!

"Kingsjohn"........don't really buy into that enforcer gets penalties, because that's an excuse that our coaching staff and announcers have instilled in our brain. It's not true, especially since Brennan has only played 4 games. They crucified Avery after the first game, and why? That's the way he's supposed to play. He's gonna' get penalties it's inevitable. But he'll draw even more, ***** Granato use to take a boat load of penalties as did Lacroix and many others. Nobody wants to get penalties but it's part of the game, and i'd rather take a roughing penalty than a *****ing lame ass hook or hold, it's pathetic to watch. Unfortunately hockey is my drug, and the Kings' are part of it!

punchy1
11-18-2003, 10:26 AM
I remember and agree. I also think that our rash of injuries are happening as no mere coincidence in relation to our lack of physical play. Sure we can from time to time finish our checks and play with a bit of an edge but for the most part, players like Belanger and Lappy who used to be cracking good hitters have become more of gap filling specialisits who are looking for the chance to hit, bounce off and look for the other team to make a mistake.

In other words, let the other team dictate the play and wait for an opportunity to score with the hopes that you yourselves don't make any mistakes. I guess my troubles with this is that it is akin to the prevent defence. It works on paper and in the long run that statistics might support it somewhat but is it really entertaining and will it win you the cup? I don't know the answer to the second question but as for the first one I can say that it isn't. That in my opinion is what a balanced team is all about, the ability to play whatever style the other team throws at you and do it better than them while you yourself is playing your own game.

What I see being called balanced now is that our Kings are getting the same solid trap play from each of its players and that we have been getting some timely goals from people whom aren't looked upon to do so. It is great that we have those kind of talented players but when you rely on the spectacular it only reasons that you will be let down more than you are rewarded. As obvious, I am no NHL coach so I would hazard that I am missing a bit that AM sees and knows is right, I do wonder though if our *patient* style isn't allot of the reason that we have so many injuries to so many of our top players.