Trevor Hoffman is a baseball god.

He threw his 479th career save yesterday, and passed Lee Smith for most all time.

saves...bleh.

good for him i guess.

saves...bleh.

If he played on better teams like Rivera did and had more postseason play, Hoffman might've been put in a better light.

If he played on better teams like Rivera did and had more postseason play, Hoffman might've been put in a better light.
The critical factor that you are missing is that Rivera's teams had so much postseason play because Rivera was on the team. Not to say that if Hoffman were the Yankees closer for the past decade that the team would've self destructed, but you're really selling Mo short here by claiming that he's just a byproduct of the Yankees' success.

Anywho, congrats to Hoffman--he's certainly one of the top 3 closers in baseball history.

:bow: :bow: :bow:

Why is everyone acting like this stuff isn't such a big deal? Hoffman has 479 saves. Yes, a save is sort of an easy stat to obtain, but 479 of them isn't. The shelf life for a closer is usually 1-3 seasons and then they lose something. This is actually a sort of phenomenal record.

Why is everyone acting like this stuff isn't such a big deal? Hoffman has 479 saves. Yes, a save is sort of an easy stat to obtain, but 479 of them isn't. The shelf life for a closer is usually 1-3 seasons and then they lose something. This is actually a sort of phenomenal record.

saves are an overrated stat.

take this into consideration. earlier this season, devil rays @ red sox. red sox were up 5-0 in the top of the ninth.

G. Norton struck out, reached on passed ball, J. Gomes scored, T. Lee to third, J. Paul to second on passed ball
- J. Gathright walked, T. Lee scored, J. Paul to third, G. Norton to second
- J. Lugo walked, J. Paul scored, G. Norton to third, J. Gathright to second
- C. Crawford singled to left, G. Norton scored, J. Gathright out at home, J. Lugo to second

in other words, four runs scored. due to the fact that he was pitching, tavarez gets the "save" despite allowing three runs, walking in two and allowing one on a hit.

there are a lot more examples of the save being a ridiculous stat. a few years ago, mariano rivera pitched in the 8th with a one run lead. the yanks scored 10 runs in the top of the ninth, rivera came back out with a 9 run lead, and rivera gets the save. it's a stupid, arbitrary stat that holds no meaning.

too bad he can't do it in the big games (*cough* playoffs and all-star game *cough*) cost the NL home field

saves are an overrated stat.

take this into consideration. earlier this season, devil rays @ red sox. red sox were up 5-0 in the top of the ninth.



in other words, four runs scored. due to the fact that he was pitching, tavarez gets the "save" despite allowing three runs, walking in two and allowing one on a hit.

there are a lot more examples of the save being a ridiculous stat. a few years ago, mariano rivera pitched in the 8th with a one run lead. the yanks scored 10 runs in the top of the ninth, rivera came back out with a 9 run lead, and rivera gets the save. it's a stupid, arbitrary stat that holds no meaning.For every anticdotal example of "cheap" saves you have, there are examples of quality saves. Hoffman entered in a 7-5 game. He gave up a single to Scott Rolen, got Juan Encarnacion to pop out, and he then struck out Jim Edmonds and Ronnie Belliard.

Things change when games are do or die. Pitchers and batters focus more on what needs to be done because there isn't going to be a next inning if they fail.

It was Total Baseball thinking, that led Theo to not get a closer for the 2003 season. It was actual baseball games that led Theo to go out and sign Keith Foulke for the 2004 season.

It was Total Baseball thinking, that led Theo to not get a closer for the 2003 season. It was actual baseball games that led Theo to go out and sign Keith Foulke for the 2004 season.

The problem with the bullpen in 2003 is totally misunderstood. Bill James has never said to form a bullpen on the cheap. He has never doubted the quality of a relief ace, just that he should be used in more useful situations. Like say, the 7th inning with runners on the corners, 1 out, top hitter up, 1 run game. As opposed to starting the 9th against the bottom of the order. The problem with the 2003 bullpen for the red sox wasn't sabermetrics, it was poor execution on bringing in players. Bullpen by committee is NOT what Bill James and others have preached, its the fact that Theo did a crappy job bringing in personel.

too bad he can't do it in the big games (*cough* playoffs and all-star game *cough*) cost the NL home field

Sample space of 11 playoff games and one All-Star Game really isn't that significant is it? I guess we have to discredit any pitcher that the Yankees scored runs off of in one postseason outing.

Sample space of 11 playoff games and one All-Star Game really isn't that significant is it? I guess we have to discredit any pitcher that the Yankees scored runs off of in one postseason outing.

I agree with you that you cannot make a definitive judgement of him based off of his experience. But anytime a closer blows a big game, it is a negative on them. The bottom line is that a closer has the most pressured filled job- he comes into a close game and is expected to finish it out. The people knocking Hoffman is just something that comes with the territory.

Amazing how a failed SS prospect who could have been outhit at the plate by Bea Arthur becomes a multi million dollar Relief Ace....
I dissagree that saves are ovverrated because its been proven that not anyone can come in, stay healthy for a long period of time and get the final 3-5 outs to end games.
I think that elite closers will start getting HOF recognition and in the next 10-12 years well see the likes of Rivera and Hoffman enshrined.