looking for a (former ?) prospect

Chevy Cheveldae
11-25-2003, 02:15 PM
Matt Sommerfeld - drafted late in 2000

Enforcer who played with Tri-city, but since then i can't find any stats for him

Maybe he's in University or something - does anyone know ?

Lauser3*
11-25-2003, 02:35 PM
No, he retired from hockey altogether after the Panthers (under Dudley) did not sign him. Last I heard he was doing lacrosse (unless I'm confusing him with former Panther prospect Chris Eade?); now, whether it was playing/coaching, I don't know but he is out of hockey for sure.

Chevy Cheveldae
11-25-2003, 05:26 PM
(unless I'm confusing him with former Panther prospect Chris Eade?)

No, Eade is still playing

He's with the University of Western Ontario

Lauser3*
11-25-2003, 08:30 PM
No, Eade is still playing

He's with the University of Western Ontario

All right then, so it's Sommerfeld that's playing/coaching lacrosse at some school now then. Eade, Sommerfeld, and a goalie prospect (Davis Parley I think) were unsigned and released more or less around the same time that Rick Dudley came into this organization. Probably had something to do with their antics in those rookie tournaments in Hull where Dudley was upset at the way our kids were treating his Tampa Bay kids. haha

Crossbar
11-25-2003, 11:56 PM
All right then, so it's Sommerfeld that's playing/coaching lacrosse at some school now then. Eade, Sommerfeld, and a goalie prospect (Davis Parley I think) were unsigned and released more or less around the same time that Rick Dudley came into this organization. Probably had something to do with their antics in those rookie tournaments in Hull where Dudley was upset at the way our kids were treating his Tampa Bay kids. haha

Or...maybe he just plain s**ks if hes not even playing the sport anymore! Thank you Dudley for getting rid of dead useless weight.

Lauser3*
11-26-2003, 06:27 AM
Or...maybe he just plain s**ks if hes not even playing the sport anymore! Thank you Dudley for getting rid of dead useless weight.

Yeah, he does sound a lot like Dudley's draft picks and acquisitions come to think of it, in the sense of them being "dead useless weight" for the most part. What's his track record again? 6 NHLers out of 67 drafts picks since 98? Yup, yup, "Thank your Rick Dudley." :lol:

Crossbar
11-26-2003, 07:51 AM
Yeah, he does sound a lot like Dudley's draft picks and acquisitions come to think of it, in the sense of them being "dead useless weight" for the most part. What's his track record again? 6 NHLers out of 67 drafts picks since 98? Yup, yup, "Thank your Rick Dudley." :lol:

Last time I checked TB has been a pretty competitive team no? So of course a lot of picks aren't going to make it into the NHL, hell it took Afanasenkov since when Demers was there to finally make it as an NHL regular on the TB roster that tells you how competitive it is down there but Dudley did a great job keeping the right pieces and assembling a great coaching staff for TB wouldn't you say? :D

Lauser3*
11-26-2003, 08:33 AM
Last time I checked TB has been a pretty competitive team no? So of course a lot of picks aren't going to make it into the NHL, hell it took Afanasenkov since when Demers was there to finally make it as an NHL regular on the TB roster that tells you how competitive it is down there but Dudley did a great job keeping the right pieces and assembling a great coaching staff for TB wouldn't you say? :D

No I wouldn't. I think Dudley gets too much underserved credit for Tampa Bay AND Ottawa. People here have bought into his hype...I for one don't. For every good acquisition Dudley has made, he has made 4 or 5 bad ones for us at least. I'm sure that was the case in Tampa Bay AND Ottawa. There's a reason Dudley hasn't been back in the playoffs since that fluke year with Ottawa...and it's not because of the league, or the refs, or the coaches either. It's the players he assembles...it's not the first time Dudley's team has gotten crap in the papers for lacking grit and toughness. It happened in Tampa Bay and Ottawa as well. Go figure. Dudley wouldn't even admit to us having a lack of toughness out there despite his players (our team captain especially) disagreeing with him. He instead wanted to focus on the few positives instead of seeing all the negatives. Not surprising of course, since his contract (thankfully) is due at the end of this season and his job is on the line now. I hope cheapskate Cohen is paying attention.

6 regular NHLers out of a possible 67...that should tell you something right there Crossbar. Open your eyes already...it's time. Laters.

Crossbar
11-26-2003, 09:59 AM
No I wouldn't. I think Dudley gets too much underserved credit for Tampa Bay AND Ottawa. People here have bought into his hype...I for one don't. For every good acquisition Dudley has made, he has made 4 or 5 bad ones for us at least. I'm sure that was the case in Tampa Bay AND Ottawa. There's a reason Dudley hasn't been back in the playoffs since that fluke year with Ottawa...and it's not because of the league, or the refs, or the coaches either. It's the players he assembles...it's not the first time Dudley's team has gotten crap in the papers for lacking grit and toughness. It happened in Tampa Bay and Ottawa as well. Go figure. Dudley wouldn't even admit to us having a lack of toughness out there despite his players (our team captain especially) disagreeing with him. He instead wanted to focus on the few positives instead of seeing all the negatives. Not surprising of course, since his contract (thankfully) is due at the end of this season and his job is on the line now. I hope cheapskate Cohen is paying attention.

6 regular NHLers out of a possible 67...that should tell you something right there Crossbar. Open your eyes already...it's time. Laters.

Then name all of Dudley's bad transactions here as a Panther Lauser please! Everybody already knows about Hurme and Mason being lost but Hurme hasn't played a game yet this season (had a bad training camp and pre-season) and Shields has played well for us at his pricetag not to mention Travis Scott is one of the best AHL goaltenders right now. So please name them (this should be quite entertaining). Its time you get off this constant Dudley bashing and give him the same chance as your beloved Bryan Murray got when he was here.

Lauser3*
11-26-2003, 11:24 AM
Then name all of Dudley's bad transactions here as a Panther Lauser please! Everybody already knows about Hurme and Mason being lost but Hurme hasn't played a game yet this season (had a bad training camp and pre-season) and Shields has played well for us at his pricetag not to mention Travis Scott is one of the best AHL goaltenders right now. So please name them (this should be quite entertaining). Its time you get off this constant Dudley bashing and give him the same chance as your beloved Bryan Murray got when he was here.

Um Crossbar, Hurme is INJURED. Steve Shields is not better than Jani Hurme. Sorry.

You forgot that in the Mason-Hurme fiasco, Dudley acquired another goaltender (Stephen Vailiquette) only to lose him again and be left with the cheaper Shields for an option.

Now from the beginning: Dudley was hired on 5/10/02 correct? Since then...

I'm going to stay away from the draft picks right now but may come back to them later. Anyways...

Jason Wiemer to the NY Islanders for injury prone Branislav Mezei.

We pick up Sven Butenschon, then trade him to the Islanders for Juraj Kolnik. Butenschon made the Islanders' roster; while Kolnik has split time between us and San Antonio.

Trade that gave prominent enforcer Eric Godard to the Islanders for a 2nd rounder (Gregory Campbell) has worked out well for NY, wouldn't you agree? I mean, Eric's an NHL regular and Campbell is only an AHLer because David Morisset is injured really. He's no better than DM in my opinion...only younger so hopefully he shows something later on. Don't want to give up on Campbell like I have on Morisset just yet, but so far, advantage NY on this trade.

We pick up free-agent Jeff Toms after that but he does squat when called up really and we let him go before the start of this season.

We pick up Hannes Hyvonen and how many games did he play for the Panthers again? Zero.

We pick up Andy Lundbohm...who you ask? Exactly.

Acquires Dmitry Yushkevich to be Robert Svehla's replacement. That went well right? haha

We sign free agent Jim Campbell. A lot of good he did for the NHL Panthers right? So much so that we let him go this off season.

Ditto on goalie Tyrone Garner, another guy Dudley picks up and who you yourself were high about. But Travis Scott is the new Tyrone Garner; never fear. haha We bought out Trevor Kidd along the same time that we acquired Garner correct? :dunno:

Another marvelous free agent signing in Stephane Matteau. I liked Matteau, but he didn't do us a lot of good. Gone by this season.

Picks up Mathieu Biron...a minor league defense with an NHL +/- of -49 which I only point out because you take that stat seriously. I just think Biron is a waste period. He's big for nothing and takes plenty of bad penalties. Like I told you on the other board, no better than Mike Wilson.

Picks up another Lightning reject by the name of Kristian Kudroc. A lot of help he's done for us and San Antonio wouldn't you say? haha.

Next we trade Sandis Ozolinsh and Lance Ward for Cullen and Trnka. Cullen's injured and Trnka isn't that great would you agree? Bad trade.

Can't forget the great signings of Igor Kravchuk and the trade that got us Pascal Trepanier either. They worked out well for us didn't they?

Did I mention letting Ryan Johnson go for nothing on waivers by the way?

That Simon Lajeunesse for Joey Tetarenko trade...Joey actually played for Ottawa while Lajeunesse will likely never see an NHL game with us; especially with Luongo in net and now (according to you) Travis Scott ahead of him in the depth department correct? This is especially of note since we've been criticized for our lack of toughness.

He let go of Rocky Thompson, only to replace him with punching bag Jeff Paul. Logic here?? Was he cheaper or something?

Let Pierre Dagenais get claimed off waivers for nothing. Same for Jamie Rivers.

Petr Kadlec was supposed to replace Ivan Majesky on defense. Kadlec was so good that we released him before any PreSeason games were played. LOL

Lee Goren anyone? A lot of good he's shown in his short call up here. Was it a -3 in one game alone? LOL

Daryl Andrews? Kent Huskins? Matt Dzieduszycki? Max Birbraer? Mike Amodeo? When do you think they'll become NHL regulars for the Panthers?

Sean Gagnon, Matt Smith, David Gove, Eric Schneider, Mike Vellinga, Brendan Walsh, and Scott Kelman to name a few...all did wonders for the NHL Panthers didn't they? LOL

And of course, who can forget Dudley's tryout contracts to Damian Rhodes, Jonas Hoglund, Todd Gill, Rich Pilon, and Billy Tibbetts.

There are probably more that I'm forgetting right now. But that's a start wouldn't you say Crossbar? Considering Dudley's only been here for 1 1/4 seasons. Can't wait till next season! :lol: Laters.

PanthersRule96
11-26-2003, 11:54 AM
Um Crossbar, Hurme is INJURED. Steve Shields is not better than Jani Hurme. Sorry.

You forgot that in the Mason-Hurme fiasco, Dudley acquired another goaltender (Stephen Vailiquette) only to lose him again and be left with the cheaper Shields for an option.

Now from the beginning: Dudley was hired on 5/10/02 correct? Since then...

I'm going to stay away from the draft picks right now but may come back to them later. Anyways...

Jason Wiemer to the NY Islanders for injury prone Branislav Mezei.

We pick up Sven Butenschon, then trade him to the Islanders for Juraj Kolnik. Butenschon made the Islanders' roster; while Kolnik has split time between us and San Antonio.

Trade that gave prominent enforcer Eric Godard to the Islanders for a 2nd rounder (Gregory Campbell) has worked out well for NY, wouldn't you agree? I mean, Eric's an NHL regular and Campbell is only an AHLer because David Morisset is injured really. He's no better than DM in my opinion...only younger so hopefully he shows something later on. Don't want to give up on Campbell like I have on Morisset just yet, but so far, advantage NY on this trade.

We pick up free-agent Jeff Toms after that but he does squat when called up really and we let him go before the start of this season.

We pick up Hannes Hyvonen and how many games did he play for the Panthers again? Zero.

We pick up Andy Lundbohm...who you ask? Exactly.

Acquires Dmitry Yushkevich to be Robert Svehla's replacement. That went well right? haha

We sign free agent Jim Campbell. A lot of good he did for the NHL Panthers right? So much so that we let him go this off season.

Ditto on goalie Tyrone Garner, another guy Dudley picks up and who you yourself were high about. But Travis Scott is the new Tyrone Garner; never fear. haha We bought out Trevor Kidd along the same time that we acquired Garner correct? :dunno:

Another marvelous free agent signing in Stephane Matteau. I liked Matteau, but he didn't do us a lot of good. Gone by this season.

Picks up Mathieu Biron...a minor league defense with an NHL +/- of -49 which I only point out because you take that stat seriously. I just think Biron is a waste period. He's big for nothing and takes plenty of bad penalties. Like I told you on the other board, no better than Mike Wilson.

Picks up another Lightning reject by the name of Kristian Kudroc. A lot of help he's done for us and San Antonio wouldn't you say? haha.

Next we trade Sandis Ozolinsh and Lance Ward for Cullen and Trnka. Cullen's injured and Trnka isn't that great would you agree? Bad trade.

Can't forget the great signings of Igor Kravchuk and the trade that got us Pascal Trepanier either. They worked out well for us didn't they?

Did I mention letting Ryan Johnson go for nothing on waivers by the way?

That Simon Lajeunesse for Joey Tetarenko trade...Joey actually played for Ottawa while Lajeunesse will likely never see an NHL game with us; especially with Luongo in net and now (according to you) Travis Scott ahead of him in the depth department correct? This is especially of note since we've been criticized for our lack of toughness.

He let go of Rocky Thompson, only to replace him with punching bag Jeff Paul. Logic here?? Was he cheaper or something?

Let Pierre Dagenais get claimed off waivers for nothing. Same for Jamie Rivers.

Petr Kadlec was supposed to replace Ivan Majesky on defense. Kadlec was so good that we released him before any PreSeason games were played. LOL

Lee Goren anyone? A lot of good he's shown in his short call up here. Was it a -3 in one game alone? LOL

Daryl Andrews? Kent Huskins? Matt Dzieduszycki? Max Birbraer? Mike Amodeo? When do you think they'll become NHL regulars for the Panthers?

Sean Gagnon, Matt Smith, David Gove, Eric Schneider, Mike Vellinga, Brendan Walsh, and Scott Kelman to name a few...all did wonders for the NHL Panthers didn't they? LOL

And of course, who can forget Dudley's tryout contracts to Damian Rhodes, Jonas Hoglund, Todd Gill, Rich Pilon, and Billy Tibbetts.

There are probably more that I'm forgetting right now. But that's a start wouldn't you say Crossbar? Considering Dudley's only been here for 1 1/4 seasons. Can't wait till next season! :lol: Laters.

Honestly, I don't want to get in the middle of your heated debate here, but half of the moves you talk about were not bad moves at all.

I'll start off with Hurme.

He is injured and did play lousy so we actually have a healthy backup in Shields. Scott>>Mason

Wiemer for Mezei was a huge steal for us. Mezei is a rock solid physical defensman who has had several freak injuries. WHen in the lineup, he's been sensational.

With our depth on D, Butenschon was worthless. We were actually able to get one of the top AHL scorers in a gritty skilled sparkplug player who has great skills.

Godard I thought was let go as a free agent, but thats beside the point. Campbell won a memorial cup and was MVP. Godard can barely skate and is a goon who is not as good as Hordichuk.

Toms was an older player that would just take up space in SAN no matter how good he was and he was not a regular in the NHL on any team.

The good move about CAmpbell was that we let him go. Kudos to Dudley. He was a great scorer in the minors before. No offense, but some of these posts show that you fail to realize that not every move gets you a Mike VanRyn for nothing.

Garner was a goalie for ECHL/CHL depth. Travis Scott is one of the best goalies in the A.

Hyvonen was a mistake but he's not even in the NHL now anyways.

Lundbohm played in SA as a tough guy and was not expected to play in the NHL.

Svehla would not play for Florida so we picked up Yushkevich who did his job well but he was misused by Keenan. Later, we trade him for Bednar and Lilja which last year was considered one of the best deals of the year.

Matteau sucked and that was Keenan who brought him in.

Biron was a good gamble to take and still could develop into a decent 5/6 dman.

As you said above about Hurme, Kudroc is HURT.

THe Ozolinsh trade was not a great deal by any means granted. Cullen at the time was a 20 goal scorer and Trnka was rock solid. Ozo is Ozo. We did get rid of that goon Lance Ward.

Kravchuk was a risk that was good to make but unfortunately it didn't work out. You try not playing for a year and then joining the NHL overnight.

Johnson was a useless player to have. He was very gritty, but Ritchie and McD are cheaper.

Lajeunesse was a decently ranked goalie prospect and teterenko was pathetic.


Rocky Thompson was such a goon that even him fighting didn't help a team. It just pissed the other team off more. Jeff Paul is slow but at least he played for COlorado a couple games.

Dagenais sucked, so did Rivers.

WIth the emergence of VanRyn, there was no room for Kadlec and he was only signed to a tryout.

Goren is a leader in SA who is good with the younger guys as he workes really hard.

All of those guys like Birbriar were for minor league depth. Not all minor league players play in the NHL,

Sean Gagnon, Matt Smith, David Gove, Eric Schneider, Mike Vellinga, Brendan Walsh were never signed by the panthers. They were signed by the minor league team. Kelman was injured terribly and was a former first round pick.

And of course, who can forget Dudley's tryout contracts to Damian Rhodes, Jonas Hoglund, Todd Gill, Rich Pilon, and Billy Tibbetts. I can and so can nearly everyone else. Thats why they were signed to TRYOUT contracts. Tibbets is locked up. :joker: What a loser. Hoglund had an attitude, Gill was just an idiot. Pilon was injured and so was Rhodes.

The only half bad move there was the Ozo trade. When you really look beyond the names, you actually begin to make logic out of things.

Now, you two can return to your discussion.

Crossbar
11-26-2003, 12:19 PM
Please by all means everyone join in this because its something that needs to be settled. Yeah lets ask for the head of a GM thats *ONLY BEEN HERE NOT EVEN A SEASON AND A HALF YET and was in rebuilding mode when he got here!* Why didn't you include the Worrell trade Lauser, you've been bugging everyone about that one for months now on the Sun-Sentinel board, or how about trading Brad Ference...a guy whos been a healthy scratch a lot this season for the Coyotes...for Hordichuk and half of what got us Stewart??? Or how about picking Val Bure back up for free and getting Van Ryn originally??? Jason Wiemer your joking right??? All those teams passed on him and his expensive contract until it was the Wild's opprotunity to pick him up (decent player but Mezei's worth the price). Toms was one of our best players down in San Antonio and for a minor league contract, he wasn't going to be part of this team's future but I think that was money spent well don't you?? Nope of course not, Dudley made the move so its automatically a bad move LOL.

Coolburn
11-26-2003, 08:32 PM
Um Crossbar, Hurme is INJURED. Steve Shields is not better than Jani Hurme. Sorry.
With Hurme injured, Dudley would've been forced to make a trade for a guy like Shields anyhow. Not paying Hurme to be hurt and getting Shields at half the price...where's the downside to that?? Shields is sufficient for spot duty that a backup handles.
You forgot that in the Mason-Hurme fiasco, Dudley acquired another goaltender (Stephen Vailiquette) only to lose him again and be left with the cheaper Shields for an option.
As soon as Dudley was able to make the trade to acquire Shields, it made Valiquette expendable anyways. Dudley knew that when he acquired Steve.
Jason Wiemer to the NY Islanders for injury prone Branislav Mezei.
Wiemer is a nice 3rd liner and leader but not for his salary. Mezei will be a Kasparitis-type player. Its not everyday those players come along. Mezei was a top 10 pick in '99...makes half as much as Wiemer...and actually fits into FL's future
We pick up Sven Butenschon, then trade him to the Islanders for Juraj Kolnik. Butenschon made the Islanders' roster; while Kolnik has split time between us and San Antonio.
Have you watched Kolnik at all? Have you looked at what Kolnik did in juniors?? While I'm not a huge Kolnik fan, I can recognize that he has talent, grit, & speed. Can't score 103 pts in juniors without all that. I would say he could be the equivalent of Dudley's acquistion of Marty St. Louis for TB
Trade that gave prominent enforcer Eric Godard to the Islanders for a 2nd rounder (Gregory Campbell) has worked out well for NY, wouldn't you agree? I mean, Eric's an NHL regular and Campbell is only an AHLer because David Morisset is injured really. He's no better than DM in my opinion...only younger so hopefully he shows something later on. Don't want to give up on Campbell like I have on Morisset just yet, but so far, advantage NY on this trade.
Wow you don't know anything about Campbell at all. Campbell is an AHLer because thats where he's going to learn the speed of the pro game. As a Memorial Cup MVP and top junior player last yr, he added the offensive game to his defensive prowess. Morisset has little impact on Campbell at all. In fact, I would say that Campbell passed David last yr on the depth chart. Godard is a goon and nothing more...Campbell is a strong grinder who could be good for 15-20 goals a yr.
We pick up free-agent Jeff Toms after that but he does squat when called up really and we let him go before the start of this season.
Minor league depth...all teams have pick-ups like this
We pick up Hannes Hyvonen and how many games did he play for the Panthers again? Zero.
Hyvonen was moved to CBJ from what I remember to pick up Butenschon which was turned into Kolnik...actually decent move overall
We pick up Andy Lundbohm...who you ask? Exactly.
More minor league depth...no problem here
Acquires Dmitry Yushkevich to be Robert Svehla's replacement. That went well right? haha
Svehla was not going to play so we got Yuskevich for nothing...that was very good if you ask me. If Keenan had brought him along a little slower, he might've played a little better. But it was always obvious that Dmitry was trade bait as soon as he got here.
We sign free agent Jim Campbell. A lot of good he did for the NHL Panthers right? So much so that we let him go this off season.
Minor league depth...now that we have some younger players available to play in the AHL, he became expendable
Ditto on goalie Tyrone Garner, another guy Dudley picks up and who you yourself were high about. But Travis Scott is the new Tyrone Garner; never fear. haha We bought out Trevor Kidd along the same time that we acquired Garner correct? :dunno:
If we bought out Kidd at the same time we acquired Garner, then it might not have been a Dudley move. The difference between Garner and Scott is that Travis played pretty well for the Kings minor league affiliate last 2 yrs (44-31-8, 10 shutouts, .925 SV%).
Another marvelous free agent signing in Stephane Matteau. I liked Matteau, but he didn't do us a lot of good. Gone by this season.
Keenan requested acquisition...I don't think this was something that Dudley wanted to do but gave in to Mike on this one
Picks up Mathieu Biron...a minor league defense with an NHL +/- of -49 which I only point out because you take that stat seriously. I just think Biron is a waste period. He's big for nothing and takes plenty of bad penalties. Like I told you on the other board, no better than Mike Wilson.
Biron is better than Wilson. He's not a waste but he's not the greatest d-man either. Again, my opinion is that he's a stop gap until guys like Krajicek & Novak are NHL-ready.
Picks up another Lightning reject by the name of Kristian Kudroc. A lot of help he's done for us and San Antonio wouldn't you say? haha.
Kudroc is HUGE and is worth the risk. He was also a 1st rounder in 99 so he has potential. I look at Chara and hope that Kudroc could be the same type of player to a lesser degree. Forwards are intimidated just by Zdeno's size alone.
Next we trade Sandis Ozolinsh and Lance Ward for Cullen and Trnka. Cullen's injured and Trnka isn't that great would you agree? Bad trade.
Ozo was horrendous in the defensive zone most of the time. He was getting overplayed by Keenan which made his mistakes more frequent. I liked Ward but he isn't that skilled and was primarily a goon. Trnka has been quite good this yr and have seen him play both physically and play the puck well. Cullen came into camp having gain 20 lbs of pure muscle...not an easy task to accomplish in an offseason. The Ozo deal was made to obviously dump his salary and Dudley got as much as he could.
Can't forget the great signings of Igor Kravchuk and the trade that got us Pascal Trepanier either. They worked out well for us didn't they?
Kravchuk again seemed like a Dudley move to placate Keenan. It was also just for a few weeks...little risk involved. Trepanier was picked up for Flaherty...minor league depth for minor league depth. Nothing important there
Did I mention letting Ryan Johnson go for nothing on waivers by the way?
Salary move and Ritchie plays the same exact style. Smart move if you ask me.
That Simon Lajeunesse for Joey Tetarenko trade...Joey actually played for Ottawa while Lajeunesse will likely never see an NHL game with us; especially with Luongo in net and now (according to you) Travis Scott ahead of him in the depth department correct? This is especially of note since we've been criticized for our lack of toughness.
Simon is still young for a goaltender...he could still work out given some more time to develop. Goaltenders do take longer to develop except for some of the superstars like Luongo. Tetarenko is just a goon and nothing more. Having Joey around would not have improved the whole team's toughness.
He let go of Rocky Thompson, only to replace him with punching bag Jeff Paul. Logic here?? Was he cheaper or something?
Thompson is a forward and Paul is a d-man. Paul seems to be a better overall player and not just a goon like Thompson. Thompson wasn't worth the roster spot whereas Paul is.
Let Pierre Dagenais get claimed off waivers for nothing. Same for Jamie Rivers.
Did you ever watch Pierre play?? He was slow and clumsy. Except for camping in front of the net, he did very little to prove his worth at the NHL level. He hasn't done anything at the NHL level this yr either. Rivers was minor league depth...nothing more.
Petr Kadlec was supposed to replace Ivan Majesky on defense. Kadlec was so good that we released him before any PreSeason games were played. LOL
Kadlec was never suppose to replace Majesky. He was suppose to play the offensive d-man role who could QB the powerplay. Van Ryn seems to have been a better choice to QB the powerplay, don't you think??
Lee Goren anyone? A lot of good he's shown in his short call up here. Was it a -3 in one game alone? LOL
But the game before that he assisted on Jokinen's goal on the PP. Goren is a strong player and is a good leader for the young team in San Antonio.
Daryl Andrews? Kent Huskins? Matt Dzieduszycki? Max Birbraer? Mike Amodeo? When do you think they'll become NHL regulars for the Panthers?
Not every player signed is destined to play in the NHL...those guys are all minor league depth with maybe Huskins possibly getting a chance at the NHL at some point.
Sean Gagnon, Matt Smith, David Gove, Eric Schneider, Mike Vellinga, Brendan Walsh, and Scott Kelman to name a few...all did wonders for the NHL Panthers didn't they? LOL
I'll say it again because maybe you'll get the hint...minor league depth!
And of course, who can forget Dudley's tryout contracts to Damian Rhodes, Jonas Hoglund, Todd Gill, Rich Pilon, and Billy Tibbetts.
Tryouts...little to no risk and possibly high rewards. I think it would've been more of a mistake to sign these players to anything more than a tryout. Can't see how this is a bad move??I'm sure glad you chimed in with your opinion http://www.hfboards.com/images/smilies/rolly.gif :lol:

Coolburn
11-26-2003, 09:39 PM
Now from the beginning: Dudley was hired on 5/10/02 correct? Since then...

I'm going to stay away from the draft picks right now but may come back to them later. Anyways...Oh let's look at his draft picks since becoming GM of FL shall we:

2002
Jay Bouwmeester - Future top defensemen in the league...this is a great draft pick and moved down to still pick him to save on the rookie bonuses on his contract Petr Taticek - Big & skilled who was billed as a 3rd line center with highest potential as a 2nd liner. Has struggled at times but shows he has playmaking ability...needs to gain some size and time to adjust to the pro game. Rob Globke - Big, fast, & skilled who scores a lot of goals for Notre Dame. Potential 2nd line RW and a strong 2nd round pick. Greg Campbell - Strong grinder who showed he has some offensive touch as well last yr. He's a pick similar to Hagman and many feel he should've been picked much higher in his draft yr looking back now. Topi Jaakola - Defensive d-man who was paired with Pitkanen last yr for Karpat. I think he could be an NHL d-man still Vince Bellissimo - A goal scoring center for Western Michigan. Offensively talented (36 pts in 37 games last yr) and a pretty good pick for a 5th rounder...was named to the conference all-rookie team Jeremy Swanson - A big 2-way type of d-man. Picked to play for Team OHL this yr in the Canada-Russia Challenge and is in the top 10 in d-men scoring in the OHL. Mikael Vuorio - Goaltending prospect in the late rounds. Seems to be playing fairly well this yr now that he's been given some icetime. Denis Yachmenev - A offensively talented player but not quite as good as his brother. Not likely to play in the NHL but it was a 7th round pick. Peter Hafner - A big d-man playing for Harvard and was co-Rookie of the Year last yr. Often sent up against the opposing teamís top offensive line2003
Nathan Horton - Big power forward and probable 1st liner of the future. Given the proper time to develop will be a strong player similar to Roenick. Anthony Stewart - Another big power forward. Goal scorer and plays very physically. FL has a need for toughness and Dudley went out and filled that need with Anthony. Kamil Kreps - Another big, skilled center which was previously a organizational weakness. Will probably challenge Taticek for 3rd line center duties in the future. Stefan Meyer - Currently top 25 in scoring in the WHL. He's got size, speed & skill...something Dudley coined. Martin Lojek - Another big, strong d-man who is strong defensively. James Pemberton - Fits into that big, skilled & speed mold that Dudley prefers (2nd in scoring for d-man at school last yr). Sophomore at Providence and will have 3 yrs to prove himself Dan Travis - Also has good size and has 2 goals for New Hampshire thus far in the season as a freshman. Martin Tuma - Defensive d-man who's playing in his first yr in juniors. Seems to be playing well in the OHL thus far. Denis Stasyuk - Relatively unknown and looks like a risky pick but who knows Dany Roussin - Oh he's just 3rd in scoring in the QMJHL this season...again fits into the big, skilled & fast mold. Not too shabby for a 7th round pick. Petr Kadlec - Overager who was a powerplay specialist in the Czech Extraliga. Always thought that he would be a stop gap before Krajicek is ready...Van Ryn's emergence made him expendable. John Hecimovic - Another big, skilled player who's in the top 5 in the OHL in goals scored this yr. Coming off back-to-back 30 goal seasons...looks to be on his way to his 3rd in a row. Again, not bad for a 9th rounder. Tanner Glass - He's a big, physical winger in his first yr at Dartmouth.Of those 23 players, there are several very good prospects in that group and 2 are already NHL players. I can see about another quarter (5) of the players Dudley has picked making the NHL...those are better odds than most GMs have EVER.

Crossbar
11-27-2003, 12:40 AM
Yup Dudley definitely did a great job with the Svehla situation, he called his bluff of retiring and got us at the time a younger and cheaper version of $vehla in the form of Yushkevich, then when he traded him to L.A. for unknowns Lilja and Bednar like Panthersrule said, it was considered one of the best trades of the year (both by Florida media and non-Florida media) now THAT is superior scouting I don't care what you say! Where is Dmitri Yushkevich now?? Still an unsigned UFA, great move by Duds handling everything. :handclap:

Getting Kolnik was a great trade too, its really rare to see such a fast and offensively gifted Euro such as him have such a huge physical upside in his game while also being solid defensively at the same time, and lets not forget Sven Butenschon was signed as a UFA before the trade so we basically got Kolnik and a 9th rounder (John Hecimovic) FOR FREE, Bravo Dudley! :lol:

As for Biron, yeah his plus/minus was low last year (-18) but this year hes been doing quite well (-1 in 7 games), whether he is or isn't another "Mike Wilson" to this team we didn't give up a Rhett Warrener to acquire Biron so it was again another brilliant non-risk waiver claim by Dudley so I don't see what the problem is here, same for Kudroc (sorry but saying Lightning rejects could have meant something 5-10 years ago but now it actually doesn't sound all that bad LOL).

All the other signings and trades have been depth movements that cost us little to nothing (Matteau probably being the only significant finacially of them all and having the rest all paid off for our minor league system which is real important for what plans are set for this organization). Dudley has done a great job managing the Rampage also.

I believe you have me mixed up with someone else Lauser I don't think I ever talked about Tyrone Garner once other than to say we signed him (and another goalie?) I think your mistaking him for Simon Lajeunesse because thats who I had high hopes on and still do, but he still has plenty of time...all the time in the world in fact with Luongo in net LOL and we didn't give up much for him. As for Rocky Thompson, Joey Tetarenko, and the rest of the goon patrol, fighting is easily replaceable but finding the right quality talent is not hence losing the dead weight and having spots available for the real hockey talent was the correct course of action. Losing Godard and coming up with Greg Campbell was great, same for losing Majesky and coming up with a high 2nd rounder (Kreps).

As for Shields, hey Hurme was quite unhappy not being #1 here but he certainly didn't deserve it based on his terrible play last year, I already knew he was injured but still its worth noting he had a bad training camp and pre-season games), Boston is paying a huge portion of the Shields salary and he seems to be better suited as backup to Luongo to keep away from distracting him (not to mention we won't have to commit to Shields after the season is over). Other than not getting back a return for Hurme (the 4th rounder which IMO was just a spur of the moment panicky move Atlanta did) Mason was the only "screw up" I'd really consider since we had the option of picking Hurme back up after losing Mason but even so Travis Scott has been unbelieveable in the AHL!

PanthersRule96
11-27-2003, 07:40 AM
No offense Lauser3 but there is little validity to all the statements you made about Dudley. Maybe you'd be able to convice some guy reading hockey for dummies, but from what I can tell, there aren't many of those types of people here.

Lauser3*
11-27-2003, 07:52 AM
Honestly, I don't want to get in the middle of your heated debate here, but half of the moves you talk about were not bad moves at all.

I'll start off with Hurme.

He is injured and did play lousy so we actually have a healthy backup in Shields. Scott>>Mason

Is Shields a better goaltender than Hurme? No. Is he cheaper? Yes, that's why he's here...we didn't upgrade, we gave up salary is all.

If Scott is Mason's replacement, then why did we try and acquire Vailiquette if we supposedly were looking at Shields all along?

Wiemer for Mezei was a huge steal for us. Mezei is a rock solid physical defensman who has had several freak injuries. WHen in the lineup, he's been sensational.

If it weren't for Wiemer high pricetag, he'd still be with the Islanders. Regardless, in Wiemer we lost grit, character, toughness and leadership. In Mezei we got an injury prone and inconsistent player. He plays great one or two games then disappears; that of course is when he plays, because most of the time he's been injured. haha.

With our depth on D, Butenschon was worthless. We were actually able to get one of the top AHL scorers in a gritty skilled sparkplug player who has great skills.

Butenschon made an NHL roster on opening night. Kolnik couldn't beat out Bednar or Novoseltsev...contracts or not, there were ways to get around this. So what if he's an AHL scoring great, how does that help us if he can't do that at the NHL level? I like his feistiness and grit, but my point was, he didn't make an NHL club; whereas Sven did.

Godard I thought was let go as a free agent, but thats beside the point. Campbell won a memorial cup and was MVP. Godard can barely skate and is a goon who is not as good as Hordichuk.

Godard was traded for the 2nd round pick that got us Campbell in the draft. Campbell may have won a Memorial Cup in Juniors but heck, Worrell won a championship in the minors as well and Cameron Mann was a Memorial Cup MVP. Do you see Mann on an NHL roster now? haha No, neither is Campbell; but Eric Godard is, goon or not.

Toms was an older player that would just take up space in SAN no matter how good he was and he was not a regular in the NHL on any team.

Okay, so why did we sign him then if he was going to be a waste?

The good move about CAmpbell was that we let him go. Kudos to Dudley. He was a great scorer in the minors before. No offense, but some of these posts show that you fail to realize that not every move gets you a Mike VanRyn for nothing.

Agreed, so why waste the contract on this guy again?

Garner was a goalie for ECHL/CHL depth. Travis Scott is one of the best goalies in the A.

Yeah, so was Chris Mason last year. Do you see Chris Mason with the Panthers this year?

Hyvonen was a mistake but he's not even in the NHL now anyways.

True, but he was in the NHL last year and we got nothing for him.

Lundbohm played in SA as a tough guy and was not expected to play in the NHL.

Lundbohm is no tough guy...just look at his PIMs. He was just another wasted pick up.

Svehla would not play for Florida so we picked up Yushkevich who did his job well but he was misused by Keenan. Later, we trade him for Bednar and Lilja which last year was considered one of the best deals of the year.

Yeah, that was last year...how well are they doing this year though? haha. The LA Kings still have 3/4 draft picks for their future while we have two borderline AHLers in our mix.

Matteau sucked and that was Keenan who brought him in.

Keenan may have wanted Matteau, but it was Dudley that gave him a contract.

Biron was a good gamble to take and still could develop into a decent 5/6 dman.

Biron stinks. The guy didn't really become an NHL regular until Dudley saved his career. He was splitting time between the NHL and AHL (where he belongs) before then.

As you said above about Hurme, Kudroc is HURT.

True, but unlike Hurme, Kristian Kudroc is a minor leaguer. Being injured doesn't help his chances of having an NHL shot either.

THe Ozolinsh trade was not a great deal by any means granted. Cullen at the time was a 20 goal scorer and Trnka was rock solid. Ozo is Ozo. We did get rid of that goon Lance Ward.

Yeah, but is Trnka any better than Ward? How much help has Cullen been for us this year?

Kravchuk was a risk that was good to make but unfortunately it didn't work out. You try not playing for a year and then joining the NHL overnight.

Okay, but if the risk proved out to be negative, doesn't that then (logically) make it a bad move then?

Johnson was a useless player to have. He was very gritty, but Ritchie and McD are cheaper.

Johnson's worked out nicely for St. Louis and we got nothing for him. I like the way Ritchie and MacDonald play but they are not better hockey players than Ryan Johnson; not even combined, just cheaper is all.

Lajeunesse was a decently ranked goalie prospect and teterenko was pathetic.

Tetarenko has played more than 1 game for every NHL team he's been on. Can you say the same for Lajeunesse? And he's done wonders in San Antonio so far. LOL

Rocky Thompson was such a goon that even him fighting didn't help a team. It just pissed the other team off more. Jeff Paul is slow but at least he played for COlorado a couple games.

Paul and Thompson are relatively the exact same player except Thompson is a year older, has more NHL experience and is a better fighter. Also, Edmonton wanted Rocky pretty bad and we probably could have traded him for something instead of letting him go for nothing...and replacing him with a punching bag isn't exaclty upgrading by the way.

Dagenais sucked, so did Rivers.

Yes, agreed. So why resign Dagenais in the first place and sign Rivers? But they obviously had some value if Montreal and Detroit were interested enough to pick them up. We couldn't have gotten draft picks, a bag of pucks, or something for these guys? Come on now.

WIth the emergence of VanRyn, there was no room for Kadlec and he
was only signed to a tryout.

Kadlec was drafted. A waste of a draft pick then.

Goren is a leader in SA who is good with the younger guys as he workes really hard.

Yeah, so was Serge Payer. He's not longer Panther property this year though, but was younger and had better numbers than Goren.

All of those guys like Birbriar were for minor league depth. Not all minor league players play in the NHL,

I know, but with the lot we have assembled, there is even less of a chance of these guys making it to the NHL or the AHL even. haha

Sean Gagnon, Matt Smith, David Gove, Eric Schneider, Mike Vellinga, Brendan Walsh were never signed by the panthers. They were signed by the minor league team. Kelman was injured terribly and was a former first round pick.

Smith and Kelman attended the previous training camp; Kelman was there this year I believe, so they were both sent down to the minors by Dudley. Furthermore, if Murray can take heat for the minor league trade of Kuba to Calgary for Rocky Thompson, then Dudley can take the heat for these guys as well. Afterall, the guys running the show in San Antonio eventually have to answer to Dudley correct? You're telling me he has no say in what goes on down there? Come on now, the guy's a control freak and egomaniac just like Keenan.

And of course, who can forget Dudley's tryout contracts to Damian Rhodes, Jonas Hoglund, Todd Gill, Rich Pilon, and Billy Tibbetts. I can and so can nearly everyone else. Thats why they were signed to TRYOUT contracts. Tibbets is locked up. :joker: What a loser. Hoglund had an attitude, Gill was just an idiot. Pilon was injured and so was Rhodes.

Right, so knowing the type of players these guys were, the conditioning they were in, the point in their careers where they were at, and the off ice problems they're known for....WHY even grant them tryouts? I mean...Tibbetts?!?!?!

The only half bad move there was the Ozo trade. When you really look beyond the names, you actually begin to make logic out of things.

Now, you two can return to your discussion.

Thanks for adding to this discussion. Crossbar and I have been wanting people to join in for a while. Good stuff. Laters.

Lauser3*
11-27-2003, 08:13 AM
Please by all means everyone join in this because its something that needs to be settled. Yeah lets ask for the head of a GM thats *ONLY BEEN HERE NOT EVEN A SEASON AND A HALF YET and was in rebuilding mode when he got here!* Why didn't you include the Worrell trade Lauser, you've been bugging everyone about that one for months now on the Sun-Sentinel board, or how about trading Brad Ference...a guy whos been a healthy scratch a lot this season for the Coyotes...for Hordichuk and half of what got us Stewart??? Or how about picking Val Bure back up for free and getting Van Ryn originally??? Jason Wiemer your joking right??? All those teams passed on him and his expensive contract until it was the Wild's opprotunity to pick him up (decent player but Mezei's worth the price). Toms was one of our best players down in San Antonio and for a minor league contract, he wasn't going to be part of this team's future but I think that was money spent well don't you?? Nope of course not, Dudley made the move so its automatically a bad move LOL.

I forgot the Worrell trade. You're right. I still don't think it'll payoff in the longrun...Colorado still has a pick and Messier isn't exactly a young pup. Nedorost remains unproven and Worrell hasn't played so let's wait and see how it turns out. I mean, people thought we won out on the Bure deal big time correct? Did we? No. Jovo's still playing in Vancouver and Nathan Smith just started to I believe. We have Robert Fried playing college hockey right? And Novak who's injured and still in the minors correct? Am I missing someone else from this trade??? But in the Worrell sense, you know my reasoning behind it...I don't think you move a guy unless you have a better replacement. As much as I like Darcy and even McNeill, they are not better fighters than Peter Worrell. Period. Worrell will likely go on to win a Cup with Colorado to boot. How long do you think Darcy will remain a Panther? How much has McNeill proved as far as being a player really? Come on now.

In terms of the Ference trade...Hordy for Ference really, since the pick was used elsewhere...I still think Ference is the better hockey player out of the two. Of course, you and some others were giving me crap about comparing a defenseman to a forward on another board so whatever, I still stand on this one. I like Hordy, but aside from being a better fighter than Brad...there's not much else he's better at.

The reason I didn't mention the VanRyn-Bure trade is because it proved beneficial and you asked me for "bad" moves I thought Dudley had made. Not good ones. But for every VanRyn and Bure that Dudley has brought in, there is also a Rivers, Kadlec, Tolkunov, Trepanier, Kravchuk, Matteau, J.Campbell, Kelman, Toms, and others. That was my point.

If it weren't for Wiemer's pricetag, more teams would have taken him. You very well know that. It was no secret Dallas wanted him bad either.

Anyways, I have to go do the family thing now. But I'll come back and answer whatever else you guys have for me when I have time later this week. Happy Thanksgiving to all. Laters.

Coolburn
11-27-2003, 09:17 AM
I forgot the Worrell trade. You're right. I still don't think it'll payoff in the longrun...Colorado still has a pick and Messier isn't exactly a young pup. Nedorost remains unproven and Worrell hasn't played so let's wait and see how it turns out. I mean, people thought we won out on the Bure deal big time correct? Did we? No. Jovo's still playing in Vancouver and Nathan Smith just started to I believe. We have Robert Fried playing college hockey right? And Novak who's injured and still in the minors correct? Am I missing someone else from this trade??? But in the Worrell sense, you know my reasoning behind it...I don't think you move a guy unless you have a better replacement. As much as I like Darcy and even McNeill, they are not better fighters than Peter Worrell. Period. Worrell will likely go on to win a Cup with Colorado to boot. How long do you think Darcy will remain a Panther? How much has McNeill proved as far as being a player really? Come on now.

In terms of the Ference trade...Hordy for Ference really, since the pick was used elsewhere...I still think Ference is the better hockey player out of the two. Of course, you and some others were giving me crap about comparing a defenseman to a forward on another board so whatever, I still stand on this one. I like Hordy, but aside from being a better fighter than Brad...there's not much else he's better at.

The reason I didn't mention the VanRyn-Bure trade is because it proved beneficial and you asked me for "bad" moves I thought Dudley had made. Not good ones. But for every VanRyn and Bure that Dudley has brought in, there is also a Rivers, Kadlec, Tolkunov, Trepanier, Kravchuk, Matteau, J.Campbell, Kelman, Toms, and others. That was my point.

If it weren't for Wiemer's pricetag, more teams would have taken him. You very well know that. It was no secret Dallas wanted him bad either.

Anyways, I have to go do the family thing now. But I'll come back and answer whatever else you guys have for me when I have time later this week. Happy Thanksgiving to all. Laters.I can't fathom ANYONE really thinking the Worrell trade was a bad one (for both teams really). Nedorost is at least more proven than a 2nd round pick to say the least. He was stuck behind great players like Forsberg & Sakic and with the addition of Selanne & Kariya there was no place for him in Colorado. In the future, people will be saying his name and players being stuck behind him. I was at the game last nite and was EXTREMELY impressed with Vaclav. Please open your eyes when you watch a game and you'll see what I mean. :D Messier provides FL something that we were extremely weak on last yr and that was a PK specialist. Again, Dudley assesses a weakness and goes out and fills it.

Why bring up the Pavel Bure deals in this? Wasn't a Dudley move both times he was involved. The only thing you were missing in the trade with the Rangers was the 1st rounder we got which turned into Taticek (which was a Dudley move).

While Worrell was a fan fav and all, he left much to be desired in his play on the ice. Hordichuk went out this offseason and worked on his stickhandling skills with players like Forsberg...He definitely brings more to the table than just fighting skills. Ference could still be a strong d-man but we have a lot of depth at defense right now and I think the move was smart...seems like he hasn't done much for PHX this yr. Therefore, the jury is probably still out on this trade and can't be deemed a success or failure.

Before Dudley was here, what kind of minor league system did we have?? Before Dudley got here, what kinda defensive depth did we have?? Before Dudley got here, what kinda depth at center did we have?? Simple answer to all those questions...nada, zip, zilch, zero, none!

I'm eager to see your reply to my analysis of all the supposed "bad moves" that I commented on earlier and the draft picks that Dudley has made in FL.

Crossbar
11-27-2003, 01:06 PM
I forgot the Worrell trade. You're right. I still don't think it'll payoff in the longrun...Colorado still has a pick and Messier isn't exactly a young pup. Nedorost remains unproven and Worrell hasn't played so let's wait and see how it turns out. I mean, people thought we won out on the Bure deal big time correct? Did we? No. Jovo's still playing in Vancouver and Nathan Smith just started to I believe. We have Robert Fried playing college hockey right? And Novak who's injured and still in the minors correct? Am I missing someone else from this trade??? But in the Worrell sense, you know my reasoning behind it...I don't think you move a guy unless you have a better replacement. As much as I like Darcy and even McNeill, they are not better fighters than Peter Worrell. Period. Worrell will likely go on to win a Cup with Colorado to boot. How long do you think Darcy will remain a Panther? How much has McNeill proved as far as being a player really? Come on now.

In terms of the Ference trade...Hordy for Ference really, since the pick was used elsewhere...I still think Ference is the better hockey player out of the two. Of course, you and some others were giving me crap about comparing a defenseman to a forward on another board so whatever, I still stand on this one. I like Hordy, but aside from being a better fighter than Brad...there's not much else he's better at.

The reason I didn't mention the VanRyn-Bure trade is because it proved beneficial and you asked me for "bad" moves I thought Dudley had made. Not good ones. But for every VanRyn and Bure that Dudley has brought in, there is also a Rivers, Kadlec, Tolkunov, Trepanier, Kravchuk, Matteau, J.Campbell, Kelman, Toms, and others. That was my point.

If it weren't for Wiemer's pricetag, more teams would have taken him. You very well know that. It was no secret Dallas wanted him bad either.

Anyways, I have to go do the family thing now. But I'll come back and answer whatever else you guys have for me when I have time later this week. Happy Thanksgiving to all. Laters.

Mezei is not injury prone, in both cases of his injuries he was helping the team by blocking the puck (in the foot and accidently in his face), its like saying Worrell is injury prone just because every single season his shabby knees get blown out. ;)

That 2nd rounder in the Ference trade was significant because it turned into half of Anthony Stewart AND we got Darcy Hordichuk, Ference was a healthy scratch here a lot of times and things still haven't changed for him in Phoenix. Rivers, Kadlec, Tolkunov, Trepanier, Kelman, Toms, J.Campbell were all intended for DEPTH, you act like we were paying each of these guys the same pricetag as Jagr they were *MINOR LEAGUE SIGNINGS THAT COSTED US NOTHING.* If they had proved themselves to be NHL-worthy than they could play with the Panthers but the intention was always for DEPTH. ALL of Dudley's bad moves are very..VERY..INSIGNIFICANT, but your preception of it is like each one of his moves were like we lost the worst deal in NHL history, give me a freaking break!!

Lauser3*
12-04-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by Lauser3
Um Crossbar, Hurme is INJURED. Steve Shields is not better than Jani Hurme. Sorry.
With Hurme injured, Dudley would've been forced to make a trade for a guy like Shields anyhow. Not paying Hurme to be hurt and getting Shields at half the price...where's the downside to that?? Shields is sufficient for spot duty that a backup handles.

Hurme is the better goalie (backup or not) for one thing. Hurme is also younger than Shields and at least gave Luongo some competition in net. With Shields now Luongo has no worries to play well or suffer being benched. Furthermore, if we have so much "depth" thanks to Dudley, why not bring up one of the minor leaguers to cover for Hurme while he healed since Luongo was slated as the #1 and expected to play most of the games anyways? Dudley screwed up here...plain and simple.

You forgot that in the Mason-Hurme fiasco, Dudley acquired another goaltender (Stephen Vailiquette) only to lose him again and be left with the cheaper Shields for an option.
As soon as Dudley was able to make the trade to acquire Shields, it made Valiquette expendable anyways. Dudley knew that when he acquired Steve.

Why pick up Vailiquette in the first place then? It was just stupid on his part. Shields is better than Vailiquette but neither of the two are better than Hurme.

Jason Wiemer to the NY Islanders for injury prone Branislav Mezei.
Wiemer is a nice 3rd liner and leader but not for his salary. Mezei will be a Kasparitis-type player. Its not everyday those players come along. Mezei was a top 10 pick in '99...makes half as much as Wiemer...and actually fits into FL's future

First, Darius had played nearly a full NHL season by the time he was 20 years old and Mezei, at 23 now, has yet to do so. Injuries aside, the guy was splitting his time between the AHL and NHL because he couldn't cut it with the Islanders. He's only with the Panthers now because of the Panthers weakness on defense and Dudley's ego. How exactly does a leader and power forward (something we truly don't have; sorry Nathan) type, like Wiemer not fit into our future??? Since those are two faults the Panthers have been complaining about not having in recent years? Besides Wiemer's pricetag, there were no other negative points where he was concerned for us to give him up (a proven NHLer) for a prospect (yes, I said it) in Mezei.

We pick up Sven Butenschon, then trade him to the Islanders for Juraj Kolnik. Butenschon made the Islanders' roster; while Kolnik has split time between us and San Antonio.
Have you watched Kolnik at all? Have you looked at what Kolnik did in juniors?? While I'm not a huge Kolnik fan, I can recognize that he has talent, grit, & speed. Can't score 103 pts in juniors without all that. I would say he could be the equivalent of Dudley's acquistion of Marty St. Louis for TB

Wow, you're way more optimistic in your faith in Dudley than Crossbar I see. haha. You've got to be kidding about Kolnik becoming a St. Louis for us right? I can't deny Kolnik brings some much needed feistiness upfront but his talent is still questionable. Sure, he had one outstanding 100+ point season in "JUNIOR" hockey but what has he proved at the NHL so far? Not much. Have you looked at Chris Wells' junior numbers? He had a 108 point season and look how well he turned out at the NHL level. haha

Trade that gave prominent enforcer Eric Godard to the Islanders for a 2nd rounder (Gregory Campbell) has worked out well for NY, wouldn't you agree? I mean, Eric's an NHL regular and Campbell is only an AHLer because David Morisset is injured really. He's no better than DM in my opinion...only younger so hopefully he shows something later on. Don't want to give up on Campbell like I have on Morisset just yet, but so far, advantage NY on this trade.
Wow you don't know anything about Campbell at all. Campbell is an AHLer because thats where he's going to learn the speed of the pro game. As a Memorial Cup MVP and top junior player last yr, he added the offensive game to his defensive prowess. Morisset has little impact on Campbell at all. In fact, I would say that Campbell passed David last yr on the depth chart. Godard is a goon and nothing more...Campbell is a strong grinder who could be good for 15-20 goals a yr.

Obviously you've never heard of Cameron Mann huh? He was a promising young player, much like Campbell, who also was a Memorial Cup MVP. They are relatively the same size actually. Of course, Mann's Junior numbers dwarf those of Campbell's. Do you know where Cameron Mann is playing now? He's over in Europe. Gregory Campbell is a promising project; nothing more. 10 to 15 goals tops are more realistic numbers from him considering he averaged about 20 goals in Juniors (give or take) and everyone knows that Junior numbers decrease when the level of the game gets higher. If Dudley remains GM, he'll have a shot at the NHL but if not, I hope his dad pulls some strings for him then. Godard may be a "goon" as you say, but his NHL future in NY seems a lot brighter than Campbell, who may not even become an NHLer.

We pick up free-agent Jeff Toms after that but he does squat when called up really and we let him go before the start of this season.
Minor league depth...all teams have pick-ups like this

All teams have pick ups like this yes; but other GMs try and concentrate on picking up depth guys with potential at least not a bunch of AHL lifers with no real chance of staying long.

We pick up Hannes Hyvonen and how many games did he play for the Panthers again? Zero.
Hyvonen was moved to CBJ from what I remember to pick up Butenschon which was turned into Kolnik...actually decent move overall

Kolnik is pretty much a depth guy for us who started out in the AHL. Butenschon made the NHL opening night roster. So, how exactly is this a better move again?

We pick up Andy Lundbohm...who you ask? Exactly.
More minor league depth...no problem here

Minor league depth that proved worthwhile. Yupee, way to go Dudley. :joker:

Acquires Dmitry Yushkevich to be Robert Svehla's replacement. That went well right? haha
Svehla was not going to play so we got Yuskevich for nothing...that was very good if you ask me. If Keenan had brought him along a little slower, he might've played a little better. But it was always obvious that Dmitry was trade bait as soon as he got here.

So, you replace the best defenseman in a team's history for basically nothing then. Yeah, real good move then. I see your point.

We sign free agent Jim Campbell. A lot of good he did for the NHL Panthers right? So much so that we let him go this off season.
Minor league depth...now that we have some younger players available to play in the AHL, he became expendable

Another minor league depth guy that proved worthwhile. Way to go Duds again.

Ditto on goalie Tyrone Garner, another guy Dudley picks up and who you yourself were high about. But Travis Scott is the new Tyrone Garner; never fear. haha We bought out Trevor Kidd along the same time that we acquired Garner correct?
If we bought out Kidd at the same time we acquired Garner, then it might not have been a Dudley move. The difference between Garner and Scott is that Travis played pretty well for the Kings minor league affiliate last 2 yrs (44-31-8, 10 shutouts, .925 SV%).

Kidd was bought out by Dudley which is why Dudley then went on to get Jani Hurme for some prospects named Greg Watson and Billy Thompson I believe. Tyrone Garner was acquired at some point during this as well, with high recommendations and praise, just like Scott was. No big surprise there though, like I said, Travis Scott is our new Tyrone Garner. Scott might have a better shot next year though (if he's still in our system) if Shields is still here and playing the way he's been playing.

Another marvelous free agent signing in Stephane Matteau. I liked Matteau, but he didn't do us a lot of good. Gone by this season.
Keenan requested acquisition...I don't think this was something that Dudley wanted to do but gave in to Mike on this one

Regardless, it is the GM that hands out contracts, not the coaches. In the end, Dudley made the decision to aquire Matteau which proved worthless. Hence, a bad move and properly noted as such.

Picks up Mathieu Biron...a minor league defense with an NHL +/- of -49 which I only point out because you take that stat seriously. I just think Biron is a waste period. He's big for nothing and takes plenty of bad penalties. Like I told you on the other board, no better than Mike Wilson.
Biron is better than Wilson. He's not a waste but he's not the greatest d-man either. Again, my opinion is that he's a stop gap until guys like Krajicek & Novak are NHL-ready.

Biron is not better than Wilson. He's as bad, if not worse, than Mike Wilson. He's only in the NHL now because Rick Dudley still has a GM job with Florida.

Picks up another Lightning reject by the name of Kristian Kudroc. A lot of help he's done for us and San Antonio wouldn't you say? haha.
Kudroc is HUGE and is worth the risk. He was also a 1st rounder in 99 so he has potential. I look at Chara and hope that Kudroc could be the same type of player to a lesser degree. Forwards are intimidated just by Zdeno's size alone.

Don't hold your breadth on this one. Kudroc is an AHL lifer. With the recent injury he suffered, his development is even more in question. Like Biron, he's only has a potential job here because Rick Dudley is our GM.

Next we trade Sandis Ozolinsh and Lance Ward for Cullen and Trnka. Cullen's injured and Trnka isn't that great would you agree? Bad trade.
Ozo was horrendous in the defensive zone most of the time. He was getting overplayed by Keenan which made his mistakes more frequent. I liked Ward but he isn't that skilled and was primarily a goon. Trnka has been quite good this yr and have seen him play both physically and play the puck well. Cullen came into camp having gain 20 lbs of pure muscle...not an easy task to accomplish in an offseason. The Ozo deal was made to obviously dump his salary and Dudley got as much as he could.

A lot of good that extra muscle did for Cullen huh? How many games did he miss due to injury again? The best player in that trade was Ozo and the worse was Trnka. Dudley may have gotten all he could but it wasn't enough for what we loss in both Ozo and Ward, since we're being criticized for lack of toughness and muscle again. Hence, why this too was a bad move by Dudley.

Can't forget the great signings of Igor Kravchuk and the trade that got us Pascal Trepanier either. They worked out well for us didn't they?
Kravchuk again seemed like a Dudley move to placate Keenan. It was also just for a few weeks...little risk involved. Trepanier was picked up for Flaherty...minor league depth for minor league depth. Nothing important there

Nothing important at all which was the problem...we ended up losing in both deals. Kravchuk proved worthless in the NHL and Trepanier played 12 games for San Antonio while Flaherty remains in the Nashville system and is helping to groom Brian Finley for the future.

Did I mention letting Ryan Johnson go for nothing on waivers by the way?
Salary move and Ritchie plays the same exact style. Smart move if you ask me.

Ritchie plays the same exact style except Johnson is better at it. Johnson's also bigger, is better at faceoffs, has a more hockey skills than Byron too. For us to lose him without at least getting something for him is a waste and a bad move by Dudley.

That Simon Lajeunesse for Joey Tetarenko trade...Joey actually played for Ottawa while Lajeunesse will likely never see an NHL game with us; especially with Luongo in net and now (according to you) Travis Scott ahead of him in the depth department correct? This is especially of note since we've been criticized for our lack of toughness.
Simon is still young for a goaltender...he could still work out given some more time to develop. Goaltenders do take longer to develop except for some of the superstars like Luongo. Tetarenko is just a goon and nothing more. Having Joey around would not have improved the whole team's toughness.

Simon's played 1 NHL game whereas Joey has played in NHL games for every team he's been on. He'd be on Carolina's roster now if Jesse Boulerice hadn't comeback as strong as he did. As for Joey not helping us out now? Um, I beg to differ. I think having a guy like Joey out there would help the rest of the team to play like men instead of a bunch of pansies like they've been doing. McNeill obviously isn't ready to play at the NHL level and we have no one else on the farm that can really come in and fill that role thanks to Dudley. So yes, I still believe this to be one of his bad moves while being our GM.

He let go of Rocky Thompson, only to replace him with punching bag Jeff Paul. Logic here?? Was he cheaper or something?
Thompson is a forward and Paul is a d-man. Paul seems to be a better overall player and not just a goon like Thompson. Thompson wasn't worth the roster spot whereas Paul is.

Rocky Thompson started out his career at defense and moved up to wing; pretty much under the same circumstances that Joey Tetarenko and Grant McNeill have both faced. And like Jeff Paul, they relatively have the same kind of numbers and are expected to fill the same role. But unlike Jeff Paul, Rocky Thompson could fight with the best of them and is still considered one of the best fighters in AHL. He also has more NHL experience than Paul, despite being just a year older. The move doesn't make much sense since Paul doesn't have a promising future in Florida and is being asked to fill the void Thompson left since we don't have too many tough guys in the minors either thanks to Rick Dudley. Rocky was a fan favorite down there as well and was highly sought after by Edmonton after Georges Laraque mentioned him to the coaching staff.

Let Pierre Dagenais get claimed off waivers for nothing. Same for Jamie Rivers.
Did you ever watch Pierre play?? He was slow and clumsy. Except for camping in front of the net, he did very little to prove his worth at the NHL level. He hasn't done anything at the NHL level this yr either. Rivers was minor league depth...nothing more.

Both these guys are currently in the NHL...Dagenais with Montreal and Rivers with Detroit. Obviously, they still had some value which Dudley failed to capitalize on.

Petr Kadlec was supposed to replace Ivan Majesky on defense. Kadlec was so good that we released him before any PreSeason games were played. LOL
Kadlec was never suppose to replace Majesky. He was suppose to play the offensive d-man role who could QB the powerplay. Van Ryn seems to have been a better choice to QB the powerplay, don't you think??

Then Kadlec was a waste of a draft pick if nothing more. For as good as VanRyn has been, he still gives up a lot of turnovers which makes me question his hockey smarts. If it weren't for his offensive numbers and our weakness on D, he'd be back in San Antonio for his defensive mishaps.

Lee Goren anyone? A lot of good he's shown in his short call up here. Was it a -3 in one game alone? LOL
But the game before that he assisted on Jokinen's goal on the PP. Goren is a strong player and is a good leader for the young team in San Antonio.

So was Serge Payer...who was younger and already had some time in San Antonio and NHL experience. He was also one of the alternate captains if I remember correclty last season. So we didn't improve by picking up Goren we just needed to try and fill a void after not wanting to extend Payer's contract, which may have been cheaper than Goren's actually.

Daryl Andrews? Kent Huskins? Matt Dzieduszycki? Max Birbraer? Mike Amodeo? When do you think they'll become NHL regulars for the Panthers?
Not every player signed is destined to play in the NHL...those guys are all minor league depth with maybe Huskins possibly getting a chance at the NHL at some point.

True but a lot of the guys Dudley brings in aren't even destined to play in the AHL if it weren't for him. That's my problem with these signing, since depth guys are at least meant to be capable of stepping up when need be at the NHL level if injury occurs. These guys can't even cut it at the AHL level; that is my point here.

Sean Gagnon, Matt Smith, David Gove, Eric Schneider, Mike Vellinga, Brendan Walsh, and Scott Kelman to name a few...all did wonders for the NHL Panthers didn't they? LOL
I'll say it again because maybe you'll get the hint...minor league depth!

And I'll say it again so maybe you understand...why not at least get some GOOD minor league depth!?!?! These guys hardly last a season or two; and that's IF they make the AHL club even.

And of course, who can forget Dudley's tryout contracts to Damian Rhodes, Jonas Hoglund, Todd Gill, Rich Pilon, and Billy Tibbetts.
Tryouts...little to no risk and possibly high rewards. I think it would've been more of a mistake to sign these players to anything more than a tryout. Can't see how this is a bad move??

Tryout contracts to players that had no real future with this team. No one wanted Damian Rhodes; everyone knew about Hoglund's attitude problem and questionalbe work ethic; Gill was old and on his way out of the league; Pilon was injured and his hockey future in doubt; and everyone knows too well about Billy Tibbetts' problems. So my question is...why bother with them at all even? Waste the tryouts on other, more deserving players or prospects not on guys with troubled histories.


BTW, I would have responded sooner but had a term paper to take care of first. Have Finals coming up next week, so don't expect a quick reply until after I'm done with them. Cool? Laters.

Crossbar
12-04-2003, 05:53 PM
The plan/goal has always been to build for the future...thats been the whole purpose of rebuilding since before Dudley was hired here and when Cohen took over...we are commited to it, nobody likes it but organizations have benefitted from it big time and now we are commited to going that route. We certainly aren't purposely trying to ignore the present but we aren't going to be tempted in making the expensive "quick-fixes" just because things aren't going our way and there aren't any garentees that the expensive "quick-fixes" will actually fix anything at all LOL.

You bag on Dudley for things such as Yushkevich not working out well here, well you forget that if it wasn't for Dudley there would have been NO ONE from that whole situation. Robert Svehla would have ended up doing to us what he did to the Maple Leafs and keep selling us out for more money, making us wait in the offseason, and evidently we would FORCE him to retire just like the Maple Leafs did so if you like that thats your thing Lauser, me on the other hand I'd rather have players who we don't have to bargain and beg to come here like Jiri Dopita, there are plenty of other players who would kill to be in the NHL and furthermore Svehla wasn't getting the job done here anyhow so what are you complaining about??? Not only did Dudley win on that situation but Dudley was bold enough to trade Yushkevich early on for Bednar and Lilja and got what was then considered one of the best trades that year, so again he got something out of nothing like it or not he did well and I could just imagine how you would have reacted knowing that we got draft picks for Yushkevich instead Lauser, you already complain enough that we have too many prospects so Dudley got us inexpensive players that can play for us now in Bednar and Lilja who worked out well for us last season and Yuskevich and Svehla both aren't in the NHL so great job again by Dudley.

Same with Sven Butenschon, you keep complaining we lost out on that one too but in reality we didn't because all we did was sign Sven to a contract and then traded him for Kolnik again fueling what we all have been trying to say *DUDLEY MADE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING* and last I checked Sven only played 37 games last year with only 4pts with the Isles and this year only 9 games and got 3 pts and scratched a ton of games so what are you talking about NHL regular?? And being a 5th or 6th d-man on a team with defensive depth like the Isles should make Sven's job easier no? It hasn't. They aren't doing good in the standings either. Kolnik on the other hand is still only 23 and provides a lot of things in 1 package so the jury is still out for him but its worth the risk I'd say seeing how again we lose nothing from this deal and could gain a lot more by being patient.

Guys like Matteau, J.Campbell, Kravchuk, and J.Rivers were former Keenan players that had good stints with him as coach so it was worth a shot to see how they would play for him again, but we didn't pay them much and only signed them to 1 year deals so if they did become terrible (which they did) we weren't going to be stuck another Pitlick or Ulanov, so again good managing by Dudley. The other guys like Hoglund, Pilon, Tibbetts, ect were *TRY-OUTS* so if they impressed enough to merit signing them then would we sign them? Yes. Did they? No. Did we? No. Was it a non-risk thing to do? Yes. So what are you complaining about? Nothing, just more non-issue and non-significant complaints that don't affect us.

As for the rest of them again all DEPTH players, guys like Toms helped the Rampage organization get started and now we no longer need them and are giving the kids a chance to develope with tons of ice time which is the most important thing of all, again Dudley is doing a good job as GM and will only make things better after the CBA is settled and players contracts are lowered so we can spend money freely.