Is Boucher passing Bierk again?

CoyoteBaloney
11-26-2003, 04:49 AM
Zac Bierk
Record: 0-1-2
GAA: 3.79
SV%: .889

Brian Boucher
Record: 0-2-1
GAA: 2.76
SV%: .906

http://coyotescorner.net/index.php?id=176&category=4

Most likely the quietest Coyotes acquisition last year, Zac Bierk brought the greatest return. ... The only problem is that during Bierk's final seven games his 3.71 GAA was with a save percentage of .885.

Seems Bierk is playing more like his final 7 games of last season then he is of his first 9 games of last season.

ulf
11-26-2003, 05:22 AM
if boucher plays as well as he has the last 2 games[one bad goal excused ] he will play himself onto another team,which may be his intent.

Guest
11-26-2003, 06:23 AM
Zac Bierk
Record: 0-1-2
GAA: 3.79
SV%: .889

Brian Boucher
Record: 0-2-1
GAA: 2.76
SV%: .906

http://coyotescorner.net/index.php?id=176&category=4

Most likely the quietest Coyotes acquisition last year, Zac Bierk brought the greatest return. ... The only problem is that during Bierk's final seven games his 3.71 GAA was with a save percentage of .885.

Seems Bierk is playing more like his final 7 games of last season then he is of his first 9 games of last season.

No, it's 7 games! I has to be a true sampling of what Bierk is capable of! Let's trade Burke, Boucher, and Pelletier so Bierk has no competition. Bierk > Brodeur

:lol:

Kimahri
11-26-2003, 06:27 PM
if boucher plays as well as he has the last 2 games[one bad goal excused ] he will play himself onto another team,which may be his intent.
I think the same could be said about Burke right now also........except that its the opposite, in that if he keeps playing as poorly as he is playing right now he might play himself onto another team. But that would mean that his return would be nothing more than a second or third rounder.

ulf
11-26-2003, 07:38 PM
I think the same could be said about Burke right now also........except that its the opposite, in that if he keeps playing as poorly as he is playing right now he might play himself onto another team. But that would mean that his return would be nothing more than a second or third rounder.

it seems burke has lost something this year....and 4 mill $ goalies don't return much at this time of year.

CoyoteBaloney
12-04-2003, 06:29 PM
Just thought I'd bump this back up to the top since Boucher played a very solid and very good technically sound game tonight. He saved the Coyotes skin in the first period against the Sabres.

I think he has overtaken Bierk and will only be removed from the regular line-up by injury, trade or a few games of poor play.

Matzel
12-04-2003, 06:36 PM
Yeah right, CT! One decent game has put him right back into the $2.0 million/year category. :joker:

Uuhm, NO! He has to show these performances on a regular basis in order to overtake anybody...

Dancin' Gabe rules! :bow:

Guest
12-04-2003, 07:20 PM
I'd love to know what they were going to do with Boucher before the Bierk injury.

I think Boucher's play this season, save the Tampa game and maybe another, has been the best we've seen him as a Coyote. I think the best plan is to deal Burke and move on with the future of this team, or at least the immediate future.

CoyoteBaloney
12-04-2003, 09:37 PM
Yeah right, CT! One decent game has put him right back into the $2.0 million/year category. :joker:

Uuhm, NO! He has to show these performances on a regular basis in order to overtake anybody...

Dancin' Gabe rules! :bow:
Pay attention. Boucher got the Coyotes the point in Dallas, lost a 1-0 nothing game, kept us in the game in Buffalo during the first period and has played well minus the game in Tampa Bay.

Zac Bierk on the other hand picked up where he left off last year ... playing poorly:

Bierk's final 7 games of last season:
GAA: 3.71
SV%: .885

Bierk's stats this season:
Record: 0-1-2
GAA: 3.79
SV%: .889

hbk
12-05-2003, 03:41 AM
Yeah right, CT! One decent game has put him right back into the $2.0 million/year category. :joker:

Uuhm, NO! He has to show these performances on a regular basis in order to overtake anybody...

Dancin' Gabe rules! :bow:

Other than the Tampa game, Boucher has been very solid this season. The only difference is he's getting some air time on these boards. I'm with Tony on this. Bierk is number 3. Is the difference worth 1.5 million. Probably not but I'm not comfortable with Bierk. As much as I don't like the mental picture, Burke will have to be one who goes and everything boils down to what the Avs and Rangers do to solve their goaltending concerns.

Matzel
12-05-2003, 03:59 AM
Pay attention. :lol:

You are a :joker:!!!

Seriously - I was paying attention:

Bierk's salary: $550,000

Boosh's salary: $2,000,000

Burke is still the #1 guy and we will not get fair return for him in a trade. He is too important (leadership) to this team, in order for MB to trade him. He has made it clear that he wants to play for another couple of seasons and provided he stays healthy, I can't see why he wouldn't play these in the desert. By that time LeNeveu should be ready to take over.

At this point, the dogs are paying $7,050,000 for their goalie position. Trading Bierk is not going to change that drastically. Trading Boosh, however, would free up some cash - or at least would cut the losses for this season...

Boosh has been the biggest mismanagement of assets ever since he was brought in for Zus and Esche. Hell, it would've been a bad deal if they would've gotten him for Esche, straight up....!http://hfboards.com/images/smilies/rant.gif

Pay attention, har, har, har, lmao!!!:joker:

Dancin' Gabe rules! :bow:

CoyoteBaloney
12-05-2003, 05:00 AM
Seriously - I was paying attention:

Bierk's salary: $550,000

Boosh's salary: $2,000,000

Burke is still the #1 guy and we will not get fair return for him in a trade. He is too important (leadership) to this team, in order for MB to trade him. He has made it clear that he wants to play for another couple of seasons and provided he stays healthy, I can't see why he wouldn't play these in the desert. By that time LeNeveu should be ready to take over.

At this point, the dogs are paying $7,050,000 for their goalie position. Trading Bierk is not going to change that drastically. Trading Boosh, however, would free up some cash - or at least would cut the losses for this season...

Boosh has been the biggest mismanagement of assets ever since he was brought in for Zus and Esche. Hell, it would've been a bad deal if they would've gotten him for Esche, straight up....!

Pay attention, har, har, har, lmao!!!:joker:

Dancin' Gabe rules! :bow:
I guess hbk also has to pay attention.

Matzel, no one said anything about a trade. We are talking about on ice level of play. If a trade happens it will involve Boucher. No one wants to trade for a goalie with a GAA near 4.00 and a SV% under .890 ... regardless how cheap his salary is. But, as for now, we have 3 goalies. Burke is the #1 and always has been. The question for the Coyotes at this time is who is not the cheaper goalie but what goalie is playing better. Boucher has out-performed Bierk and until a trade happens has now taken over as the #2 goalie.

hbk, the difference is not worth $1.5 million but right now that's not the question ... until a trade is completed they are both collecting a paycheck. So why not use the goalie who is playing better?

They're both on our team. They're both collecting their paychecks. Why wouldn't you play the one who is clearly playing better? It has no impact on our salary.

And Matzel call me a joker. :shakehead

Based on their on ice play, Boucher has passed Bierk.

Another thing ... Don't be fooled. It is the Flyers defense, Not Robert "Early Goal" Esche.

Matzel
12-05-2003, 05:46 AM
they are both collecting a paycheck

That's correct! It pains me to see that. That's why I would love to see Boosh gone...

CT, Esche might benefit from a tight Flyers 'D', but IMO delivers a lot more bang for the buck (@ $560,000/season) than 'weak-start-and-shaky-finish' Boosh (@ $2,000,000/season).

You know, we can discuss this topic 'til the doctor gets here, but I don't think we'll ever agree with one another. That's fine with me, because I don't think we have to. I acknowledge the fact that Boosh has had a couple of better starts as of late. That does not mean that he should remain as the #2 goalie on this team. He is way too expensive for what he brings to the table. I am confident, that Bierk (or even Pelletier) can do the same for a lot less, given a clear vote of confidence by management/ownership (by making them the official backup to Burke) and the opportunity to practise with the team.

So in a way, I am glad that 'at-least-one-soft-goal-per-game' Boosh is playing better, because he might actually kindle some GM's interest in his services and get traded... And I do agree, while Boosh is running hot, BF has to go with him, if for no other reason but to showcase him...

Dancin' Gabe rules! :bow:

Guest
12-05-2003, 06:18 AM
You have to completely discount Esche from the entire equation. Esche had poor mental preparation and re-committed himself to his craft once he was traded to Philly. It pushed him to make himself better, and he has reached a higher level there than here, the defense no doubt helps. I don't think Esche is the next great young goalie however, and his reign as a starter will not be one of longevity, when it does occur.

Matzel
12-05-2003, 06:39 AM
Esche (had poor mental preparation and) re-committed himself to his craft once he was traded to Philly. It pushed him to make himself better, and he has reached a higher level there than here...

I agree, I only wished Boosh would've done the same when he came into the desert...

I can't disount Esche in the trade, though. He was an asset at the time and he was traded. Zus was also part of that deal. Phoenix' return was horrible, at best...

Dancin' Gabe rules! :bow:

ulf
12-05-2003, 11:18 AM
i agree with matzel, the trade was a bad one, the contract given to booch is the real problem at this point.

as for the orig question.....booch has easily contributed more to the yotes this year as he has stayed healthy and given us 3 good games and a win.

bierk may or may not be hurt but he won't get his chance till burke or booch are gone.

give booch the easy games till someone bites or give burke the hard games till someone pays....it doesn't really matter at this point.

CoyoteBaloney
12-05-2003, 07:57 PM
That's correct! It pains me to see that. That's why I would love to see Boosh gone...

CT, Esche might benefit from a tight Flyers 'D', but IMO delivers a lot more bang for the buck (@ $560,000/season) than 'weak-start-and-shaky-finish' Boosh (@ $2,000,000/season).

You know, we can discuss this topic 'til the doctor gets here, but I don't think we'll ever agree with one another. That's fine with me, because I don't think we have to. I acknowledge the fact that Boosh has had a couple of better starts as of late. That does not mean that he should remain as the #2 goalie on this team. He is way too expensive for what he brings to the table. I am confident, that Bierk (or even Pelletier) can do the same for a lot less, given a clear vote of confidence by management/ownership (by making them the official backup to Burke) and the opportunity to practise with the team.

So in a way, I am glad that 'at-least-one-soft-goal-per-game' Boosh is playing better, because he might actually kindle some GM's interest in his services and get traded... And I do agree, while Boosh is running hot, BF has to go with him, if for no other reason but to showcase him...

Dancin' Gabe rules! :bow:
Talking about Esche is neither here nor there. He is not part of the Coyotes goalie equation.

Esche may be delivering more bang for the buck, but he wasn't doing that when he was wearing a Coyotes jersey. I think Esche's brother had a major illness which seemed to have shaken him up to the point where he woke up and started behaving more professional like. He slowed down his drinking and started preparing himself more. But he wasn't playing well when he was playing for us.

This thread is not about slaaries. This thread is not about Esche. This thread is about the question surrounding the coyotes #2 goalie. Boucher? or Bierk? Right now, Francis would have to be stupid to remove Boucher from the goalie rotation. Boucher's play has earned at least 1 bad game and have him remain in the rotation.

Bierk will have to wait and get his opportunity one of 3 ways:
1) Burke or Boucher trade.
2) Burke or Boucher injury.
3) Boucher playing poorly in at least 2 consecutive games.

PhoPhan
12-06-2003, 08:50 AM
I watched Esche last night. He overplayed everything and let up a lot of rebounds. I am glad he is gone.

CoyoteBaloney
12-06-2003, 08:55 AM
I watched Esche last night. He overplayed everything and let up a lot of rebounds. I am glad he is gone.
Excellent post PhoPhan. Overplaying Mara and giving up the rebound on Nazarov's shot lead to both goals. The reason why we didn't win is because we didn't test Esche enough throughout the game.

roadrunner
12-06-2003, 05:13 PM
Excellent post PhoPhan. Overplaying Mara and giving up the rebound on Nazarov's shot lead to both goals. The reason why we didn't win is because we didn't test Esche enough throughout the game.

That's for sure. I could have made 18 saves and won the game! ;) At the time Boucher was acquired, scary as this is to recall, DesRocher was our only hope behind Esche. The Philly trade looks even worse now that Bierk emerged and we burgaled Pelletier from the Canes...not to mention Lenny. I'm not sure what the best move is at this moment, but I'm thinking we don't need Boosh and his salary as bad as we did at the time of that trade...

Cliff Fletcher has white hair for good reason! These are tough decisions.

The Flying Pigdog
12-07-2003, 05:31 PM
Just wanna say that Boucher had another outstanding game today vs. the Blackhawks. He made some huge saves both in regulation and in overtime. I'd say he's playing as well as he played during his rookie season.

hbk
12-07-2003, 06:05 PM
Here's the problem. Phoenix made Boucher the odd man out early this year after giving him a contract he didn't deserve and punishing him for their mistake. In order to deal him, Boucher's play had to improve and Phoenix had to give him some starting time. Now, Boucher is playing the exact type of game they expected from him before making him the odd man out. He's playing like a number one netminder and is actually earning the contract that he didn't deserve. How do you now justify dealing him? Phoenix is back to where they were before this mess started. You have a good backup with Bierk and a star goalie in Burke and a future number one netminder in Boucher (ok I'm taking some creative liberties with that point but bear with me on the concept). One of Bierk or Burke has to go. Personally, I'm not opposed to dealing both. Bierk now to solve the log-jam in the short-term and Burke when and if an opportunity arises during the season. Phoenix can then bring up Peletier to back up Boucher.

ulf
12-07-2003, 06:34 PM
i'm delighted boucher is playing so well right now.....but stay the course and trade him if his run has peaked interest with other teams.

the loss of zac would be poor asset mgmt but his value is waiver wire or a 3-5 at best...his loss is livable.

burke is the type of dollar trade the yotes are looking to achieve, but the $'s won't go back into making this a better team so i say keep him.

Waldo
12-07-2003, 07:00 PM
Didn't get to listen to the game but was quite disappointed at the apparent poor performance. That so few showed up for such an important game is certainly not a good sign. But once again another clutch goal in the dying seconds to grab a point. I am certainly surprised at how badly the Dogs were outplayed but still stole a point because of superb goaltending. I was even more surprised when when I looked at the stats and saw that Boosh was the goaltender of record. Wouldn't it make for an interesting dilemma if all of a sudden Boosh emerged. Anyhow, It would be nice if they went with a hot goaltender for a bit. Start Boosh as long as he plays well. Let's see if this is for real. It also shouldn't be such a surprise that we scored late again. Too bad they couldn't pull a late goal against the Flyers. Maybe next time. but Doaner sure is playing well. Glad to see Taffe score too. But a hot goaltender can take them on a nice roll.

CoyoteBaloney
12-08-2003, 04:24 AM
Waldo, the Coyotes played a very poor game last night. They had no right getting 1 point. Our offense makes Lieghton look like the 2nd coming of Tony Esposito.

Boucher was the best out of all 38 players on the ice last night.

Waldo
12-08-2003, 09:12 AM
Waldo, the Coyotes played a very poor game last night. They had no right getting 1 point. Our offense makes Lieghton look like the 2nd coming of Tony Esposito.

Boucher was the best out of all 38 players on the ice last night.

I've certainly been somewhat vocal in the Bierk vs Boosh debate - on Bierk's side. But that shouldn't be taken as my final word on the matter. If it turns out that Boosh plays superbly then I would certainly be happy. I'd like to see play him more while he's hot and if it continues then I'd be much happier with Boosh/Bierk as our goaltenders and be willing to trade Burke. But it must be based on performance. That seems like the best performance by a Coyotes goalie since the season started. If he got his head together and became the goaltender we were expecting at the time of the trade then 2 mill for a starting goaltender is a bargain that is locked in for a bit. Burke has been OK but not great. But the goaltending issue is so important that we don't want to see a mistake. For example, if they trade Boosh and he plays great for another team then that would be a huge and costly mistake. If they keep him and trade Bierk, then it's also a big mistake if Boosh reverts back to being mediocre at best. Likewise if they trade Burke and Boosh turns into a bust again. So I'm all for playing Boosh and seeing if his great play is sustainable. Tough call for mngment. Nonetheless, this was the 1st game that Boosh actually ever stole for the Coyotes. Out of adversity sometimes you get maturity and maybe Boosh is now capable of being a #1.

Guest
12-08-2003, 09:34 AM
Assessing all 3 scenarios, of each goaltender getting dealt, this is how it stacks up:

Burke dealt, Boucher & Bierk in nets. With either goalie left, I think the Coyotes would be secure considering the team they've got. If Boucher falters, you've got Bierk. If Bierk was a one month wonder, we've got Boucher. If neither works out, well we weren't contenders in the first place and we can try to advance the team in the future with guys like Pelletier or Lenny. Burke has proven that he can carry this team into the playoffs, but not the past 2 seasons.

Boucher dealt, Burke & Bierk in the nets. You're pretty solid in general with Burke in net, and Bierk can play some games as backup. I'm personally not crazy about have 2 potentially injury prone goaltenders at this point in their careers, but it could work. If Burke is gone, then you are stuck with Bierk and a lot of uncertainty.

Bierk dealt, Burke & Boucher in the nets. Makes little sense as the team would be paying more for it's goaltenders than it's entire blueline, and Burke is going to be gone soon as it is. Then you are left with Boucher and inexperienced backups, which can be scary. Similar situation as Burke & Bierk really.

So it makes the most sense, all things considered, to deal Burke IMO.

Waldo
12-08-2003, 10:10 AM
It goes without saying that for goaltenders the most important thing is confidence. What seemed to be a big problem though was the confidence the players have in their goaltender. Last season this team would not play well in front of either Boosh or Bierk. But in last nites game against the Hawks, there is no doubt that the players know without that Boosh stole them a point. Now that Boosh has so much confidence in himelf and the players have confidence in him then it's a new equation. For this team to make the playoffs the goaltending has to be exceptional. This must be close to the first time Boosh has a save % over .900 and .923 is none too shabby. So keep playing Boosh and let him take the Dogs on a run up the standings. Burke has been ok but still not in top form. However, I'm thinking they will still go with Burke because so far they have been strictly playing Burke as #1 and more or less playing someone else for a game when the sched has 2 games in 2 nites. Now that Boosh has a hot hand it's time to go with the hot hand.

Guest
12-08-2003, 11:20 AM
Boucher starting 2 of the past 3 games in a 4 day span kind of leads me to believe the coaching staff has a new found faith or confidence in Boucher as well. They'll continue to go to him until he let's them down, and that might be a good thing as it could really build on something for Boucher to get some support like this. Burke gets a much needed rest, and it's not like we are showcasing Burke for a trade right now anyway. Most likely whomever wants Burke would ask to see him in a few games to make sure he's not hurt or something, but we can get by cutting his games down at this point in the season. Hopefully Burke comes back hungry to win.

CoyoteBaloney
12-08-2003, 01:02 PM
I really don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out what the Coyotes management would like to do with the goalies.

There is really only one goalie who is being paid like a back-up goalie. Zac Bierk's salary is the only one of the three who is being paid as the #2 goalie. The other two goalies, Sean Burke and Brian Boucher are being paid like starters or semi-starters.

So to me it appears as if the Coyotes are needing to decide between Burke and Boucher. Now the way I see things is that Burke will get the better trade return presently and Boucher will get the better trade return later.

This is most likely Burke's last NHL contract. I would be surprised if he comes back and plays after the new CBA is hammered out if the NHL does not have a season next year.

Boucher has already been waived throughout the league and went unclaimed. He is not going to get the Coyotes anything in return because of his horrible season last year.

My solution would be to trade Burke for the best package possible and give the duties to Boucher and Bierk, with Pelletier backing them up until LeNevue is ready to take over.

Waldo
12-08-2003, 02:17 PM
My solution would be to trade Burke for the best package possible and give the duties to Boucher and Bierk, with Pelletier backing them up until LeNevue is ready to take over.

OK! I'm game. I'm a gamblin man myself.

ulf
12-08-2003, 02:27 PM
[QUOTE=CoyoteTony]

My solution would be to trade Burke for the best package


tony.....when you say package are you hoping for more than a 2nd rounder??

burkes value will increase as the year and contract wind down,i hope he will become a valuable asset because of his ufa status for next year.teams in need of a playoff run goalie can rent him short term at the cost of a prospect or 2nd rnder.

hbk
12-08-2003, 02:35 PM
Waldo, the Coyotes played a very poor game last night. They had no right getting 1 point. Our offense makes Lieghton look like the 2nd coming of Tony Esposito.

Boucher was the best out of all 38 players on the ice last night.


Boucher was outstanding. Realistically, it's only subtle changes in his technique and some bounces finally going his way that made the difference.

I take back everything bad I have ever said about Shane Doan. He deserves to be the Captain and leader of this team. He's taken his game to a whole new level this year. MVP.

Greg
12-08-2003, 05:13 PM
I take back everything bad I have ever said about Shane Doan. He deserves to be the Captain and leader of this team. He's taken his game to a whole new level this year. MVP.

USA Today one-on-one with Shane Doan (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/checking/2003-12-08-allen_x.htm)
A few questions.......

USA Today- Your teammate, Ladislav Nagy, is right with you at a point per game pace. How good is this kid?

SD- For the past two years I've been asked if this is a fluke, and for the last two years I've said Ladi is coming on to be the player he is now. When he gets the puck, he's as dangerous as any player in the league at beating someone one-on-one and creating something out of nothing. He's incredibly fast and he's a lot stronger than people realize. If he gets a step on you, you aren't going to stop him.

USA Today- What do the Coyotes have to accomplish to make the playoffs?

SD- We have to be more consistent game in and game out. We are capable of making the playoffs if we play consistent. No. 2 we have to get better defensively. We have enough guys who can score. And our goaltending is good enough that we play well defensively we will be fine. Finally, we have to believe we can do it. I think everyone in our room is getting that.