Jim Robson Division Second Round #1 Burnaby Mountaineers vs. #4 Edmonton Oilers

Frightened Inmate #2
11-29-2006, 06:30 PM
The Burnaby Mountaineers

coach: Scotty Bowman
Captain: Wayne Gretzky
Alternate Captains: Guy Carbonneau, Al MacInnis

Valeri Kamensky - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Brendan Shanahan - Jeremy Roenick - Steve Larmer
Brian Propp - Pierre Turgeon - Jere Lehtinen
Adam Graves - Guy Carbonneau - Joel Otto
Tiger Williams


Valeri Vasiliev - Al MacInnis
Mike Ramsey - Jan Suchy
Victor Kuzkin - Vitaly Davydov
Nikolai Sologubov

Mike Vernon
John Vanbiesbrouck
George Hainsworth

The Edmonton Oilers

Head Coach: Bob Johnson
Captain: Ted Kennedy
Alternate Captains: Darryl Sitler, Lanny McDonald, Pierre Pilote

Ilya Kovalchuk - Ted Kennedy - Glenn Anderson
Brian Sutter - Darryl Sittler - Lanny McDonald
Bob Gainey - Brent Sutter - Claude Provost
Vic Hadfield - Dave Poulin - Didier Pitre
Don McKenny

Pierre Pilote - Butch Bouchard
Leo Boivin - Babe Pratt
Babe Siebert - Ted Green
Jimmy Roberts

Terry Sawchuk
Frank Brimsek
Charlie Hodge

Transplanted Caper
11-29-2006, 06:34 PM
This is a great 1 vrs 4 matchup. Both teams look very solid. I'll be doing some research on this one!

Frightened Inmate #2
11-29-2006, 06:36 PM
I understand that Burnaby has the best offensive player on the team but after that I don't know why but they don't really scare me as a team and I think a lot of that has to do with having Vernon between the pipes. I might be a bit young but I remember the early 90s when the Flames in general and in large part Vernon were unable to win a playoff series to save their lives. Whether it was the lowly LA Kings (featuring Gretzky oddly enough), the San Jose Sharks or being unable to put the Canucks away when they were up 3-1 in the series. Was the goaltender on one of the best teams to not even make the playoffs in 1991-92. I know all about'86 '89 and '98 but those don't make me forget about his long streak as a playoff choke from 1990-1996. Huge weakness right there

Evil Speaker
11-29-2006, 06:36 PM
Its a bit early for this don't you think? You're going to take away alot of attention from the other round 1 matchups.

Frightened Inmate #2
11-29-2006, 06:39 PM
On one hand I agree but on the other hand I am thinking it would be a good idea to wrap up the other ones on Friday/Saturday and then have these threads kicking into high gear at the same time. It is just with Christmas coming and everyone being busy as all hell we are going to need to pick up the pace significantly

Also I am only starting one a day...

Nalyd Psycho
11-29-2006, 06:47 PM
Its a bit early for this don't you think? You're going to take away alot of attention from the other round 1 matchups.

I'm pretty sure the plan is for all 8 1st round matches to run concurrently. I could be wrong though.

Frightened Inmate #2
11-29-2006, 06:48 PM
I'm pretty sure the plan is for all 8 1st round matches to run concurrently. I could be wrong though.

I have the four starting now but then I was going to stagger the other ones so that it doesn't become an overload in quick order.

I was wondering though how many votes did you get and how many non-gms were able to vote?

Murphy
11-29-2006, 06:52 PM
In the last minor league draft I drafted Steve Kasper, who made a career out of shutting down Gretzky. Can I call him up??

Sawchuk vs Vernon......hmmmmmmm

Ted Green vs a bunch of Russians.........hmmmmmmmmm

Bob meet Wayne.......:wedgie:

Nalyd Psycho
11-29-2006, 06:56 PM
Bowman and Gretzky on the same team is enough to win the entire thing, just a scary combonation. But, I have to say, Burnaby's 2nd and 3rd centers don't scare me at all. Solid on the wings though. A tight match-up. The deciding factor may be how well an undersized Suchy can play his game, if he's able to do his thing, he'd fill the role Coffey did in Edmonton quite nicely and is probably a better goal scorer than Coffey, albiet, inferior skater and playmaker.

Should be an excellent match-up.



I was wondering though how many votes did you get and how many non-gms were able to vote?

16 votes, no formal votes from non-GMs.

Murphy
11-29-2006, 07:09 PM
I do wonder how Gretzky would to respond to Bowman and his mind tricks. I don't think he enjoyed his short time with Keenan in St Louis and thats about as close a comparable I can make.

Sather rarely took Gretzky to task although it did happen, I don't know maybe once!

I don't see Gretzky responding to Bowman well.

Frightened Inmate #2
11-29-2006, 07:11 PM
Bowman and Gretzky on the same team is enough to win the entire thing, just a scary combonation. But, I have to say, Burnaby's 2nd and 3rd centers don't scare me at all. Solid on the wings though. A tight match-up. The deciding factor may be how well an undersized Suchy can play his game, if he's able to do his thing, he'd fill the role Coffey did in Edmonton quite nicely and is probably a better goal scorer than Coffey, albiet, inferior skater and playmaker.

Huh? Are we talking about the same Coffey that scored 48 goals?

Nalyd Psycho
11-29-2006, 07:15 PM
Huh? Are we talking about the same Coffey that scored 48 goals?
Should also highlight the probably. But yes, the "Czech Bobby Orr" is one of the top goal scoring d-men ever.

Frightened Inmate #2
11-29-2006, 08:14 PM
And Larionov was the Russian Wayne Gretzky... To say that Suchy would be a better goalscorer than Coffey is odd to say the least and I would say that Coffey who holds the record for goals in a single season - in the best league in the world - easily trumps Suchy. If you want to say from a defensive perspective that Suchy was better, there are no arguements but from a goalscoring perspective to say that someone was said to be the Czechoslovakian Bobby Orr and is thus a better goalscorer is using faulty logic at best. I remember people saying that Orr was similar in skating to Bowmeester.... would he be better than Coffey as well?

Nalyd Psycho
11-29-2006, 08:20 PM
And Larionov was the Russian Wayne Gretzky... To say that Suchy would be a better goalscorer than Coffey is odd to say the least and I would say that Coffey who holds the record for goals in a single season - in the best league in the world - easily trumps Suchy. If you want to say from a defensive perspective that Suchy was better, there are no arguements but from a goalscoring perspective to say that someone was said to be the Czechoslovakian Bobby Orr and is thus a better goalscorer is using faulty logic at best. I remember people saying that Orr was similar in skating to Bowmeester.... would he be better than Coffey as well?

Unfortunatly, I can't find league stats at the moment, but in 58 World Championship games he had 20 goals. Most impress is the 1970 WC where he had 8 goals and 7 assists in 10 games. Maybe he's not Coffey good, but having Holik, Novy and Nedomansky set you up isn't the same as having Messier, Gretzky and Kurri set you up either. I may be over stating things here, but Suchy is one of the best goal scoring defence men ever and if his size doesn't hold him back, he'll be lethal pinching in from the point.

Then again, the eurohockey.com site has him listed as playing in the extraliga at 9 years old, so, it might not be entirely accurate...

Then again, wikipedia lists him as playing in the extraliga at 8 years old...

Really hard to get a good read on him, but, from what I can gather, from 68-70 his offensive game was unreal. And that while he was playing in a mens league at 8, it probably wasn't extraliga. His final career totals are 164 goals, 221 assists, 385 points in 561 games. Although this includes the decline in play after a car accident. And apparantly he was strong defensively too.

Wish I read Czech to get more info on him, but what I can get shows him as an unreal talent at his peak.

Murphy
11-29-2006, 08:47 PM
To start with the Oilers will be playing a defense first style who will be diverting all play to the outside. The wingers will be hit along the boards at every opportunity as will anyone coming to the net. There will be no room to operate in front of the net and scoring chances will be from the sides only. The Oilers are comfortable knowing the have a clear advantage in net and trading chance for chance would probably work in their favour but it's still going to be a defense first concept.

It'll be a dump and chase game for the Oilers, particularily into the Mountaineers right side. We'll see how 160 Lbs of Suchy and McInnis stand up to the relentless forecheck of the Oilers LW's of Brian Sutter, Gainey, Hadfield and of course Teeder.

Line matchups are going to be key. Bowman is the master but Johnson is no slouch either. Obviously the Gainey, Provost duo will be keying in on Gretzky's line in an attempt to take away Gretzkys passing lanes. Brent Sutter will shadowing Gretzky ala Kasper and getting in his face whenever he can. Gretzky and Kurri have never seen the likes of Gainey and Provost and if anyone can shut them down that line this one can.

The Kennedy line will probably face the Carbonneau line, not sure if the Otto Graves combo can contain Kovalchuk and Anderson. I'd be looking for the slower overated Otto to be exposed by Kovalchuk.

The Sittler line vs the Roenick line should be a good one. Shanahan up against Lanny and Larmer up against Brian Sutter. There's enough grit and snipers among these guys that some scoring opportunities should be available. The Sawchuk over Vernon advatage will come into play these guys. Sittler is also a clear advantage over Roenick.

The Poulin vs Turgeon line indicates the depth on these two teams are about the same. Pound Turgeon and he has a tendency to disappear. The Oilers are happy not to have any wusses like that on their team...:D

On defense I don't even think its close. Pilote is clearly the best defenseman in the series, Bouchard is argueably the second best. Ramsey and Vasilev are the only two I can see that can handle a physical series and yes.....this is going to be a physical series.

Goaltending, the most important position in the playoffs. With Gretzkys line stifled, chances should be even. I'd take Charrlie Hodge over Vernon and still be comfortable trading chances.

The Mountaineers are going down.

Looking forward to the rebuttal VanIslander....

VanIslander
11-29-2006, 09:52 PM
I don't have time now but rest assured that Bowman will use home ice advantage. When there's defensive face-offs at key moments, and when the Mountaineers have the lead - and this team will score - then Bowman will shorten the bench at times to three lines:

Adam Graves - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Brendan Shanahan - Jeremy Roenick - Steve Larmer
Brian Propp - Guy Carbonneau - Jere Lehtinen

These big Mountaineers (statistically the biggest of the 20 teams if you call the stats that were crunched) will be a challenge for the SMALL defensmen on the Oilers. Pilote thinks offense-first and is 5'9, not the best combination to take on big Shanahan or deadly Larmer, nor Kurri or Propp. Second pairing Oiler d-man Boivin is 5'7, small even for his time, and if he tries to throw a lot of body checks like he enjoys doing he'll find himself burned by deadly passes. Mountaineer wingers have the speed, size and skill to cause defensemen fits and the Oilers blueline will be crossed on quick transitions. The third Oiler pairing has Siebert, a skilled forward who converted to defense when he got too slow and he thrived with his offensive instincts. His linemate Green is "violent" and is so nasty in rep that Tiger Williams will take him on a couple of times in the series. And the Mountaineers was assembled to be excellent in special teams, powerplays and penalty kill. In fact, these will be keys to victory. I will cover special teams tomorrow.

The four players not on the shortened bench of three lines will still see action, strategically as Bowman likes it. With Otto as backup for face-offs (though all centres on the team are excellent at it), Tiger Williams to handle shifts on Gretz's line if a Semenko type enforcer is needed, as at times it may against this opponent, and Kamensky for the top line on offensive face-offs when seeking a tying goal.

There will plenty of Mountaineer rushes up ice, some of the most dangerous on transition due to turnovers generated, and the Oilers defense wil have trouble dealing with such moves.

That's all I have time for now. G'day.

God Bless Canada
11-29-2006, 10:08 PM
When we decided to go with playoffs, this is the type of matchup I dreamed of. Buffalo/Hamilton was THE series of the preliminary round. This will be THE matchup of the second round. There are some other strong matchups (Montreal/Boston comes to mind) but I think this is the one to sit down and watch and enjoy great playoff-style hockey. I've been looking forward to this one since before the start of the first round.

If Murphy2 is going to win, he's going to need great goaltending. I think even VanI would admit there's an edge here. Sawchuk is No. 1 on some lists, and in the top five on every knowledgeable fans' list. Hainsworth is top 10 on some lists. I'm a huge Mike Vernon fan, but I'll definitely take eight-time all-star Brimsek. (Only two all-star selections came when the best were overseas). You hope that the No. 3's won't be a factor.

Defence is really tough to call, not only from the blue-line perspective, but from the overall team perspective. Both teams have a lot of strong defensive forwards. Looking at the blue lines, I like Edmonton's No. 1 a little more than Burnaby's (I think Pilote is the most underrated all-time great in the history of the game). Bouchard gives Pilote a strong defensive conscience, enabling Pilote to concentrate of his offensive duties. The other two pairings are good offence-defence tandems, too. Burnaby will be hard-pressed to get many odd-man rushes, as Edmonton has some of the finest two-way forwards in the draft. Gainey and Provost would be my ideal third line LW and RW, respectively.

I like VanI's top four a lot. MacInnis and Suchy are big bombers from the point. MacInnis doesn't need a defensive conscience, but he has a reliable two-way force in Vasiliev. Mike Ramsey will certainly give Suchy the freedom to roam. Don't really know much about the other two defencemen, but I do like Sogulobov, but I couldn't pass up the chance to take the physical swashbuckler Barilko. (Hey, four Cups in five years). There's a strong two-way presence on the bottom three lines, although for some reason, I don't think Turgeon fits in well with Propp and Lehtinen at all. Hmmm, super soft one-dimensional underachiever centre, teamed with one of the best defensive RWs of all-time, and the top scoring LW in playoff history who was a strong presence in the defensive zone and in the corners.

Murphy2, I will definitely take you to task with your comment that Otto is overrated. If anything, he's underrated. Scouts across the world are still looking for the next Joel Otto: a big, strong centre who dominates physically AND defensively, is a force in the faceoff circle, and can get you 50 points per season. We've seen reasonable facsimilies (Primeau, Holik at various points in their careers) but nobody who has come into the league and come close to what Otto could do. Prototypes are never overrated.

VanI gets a definite nod on offence. He has that proven game-breaker element that Murphy2 doesn't have. We know what Gretzky and Kurri can do offensively. Kamensky is potent. They lack that true game breaker (a guy who can go for two goals and two assists when Gretzky and Kurri are held off the scoresheet) but they have a lot of solid, reliable scorers who should be good for around a point-per-game, guys like Shanahan, Roenick, Larmer, Propp. If his head's on straight, Turgeon be the No. 3 scorer on the team. And they have MacInnis, Vasiliev and Suchy on the point.

The closest things to a proven game-breaker in Edmonton are Sittler and Pitre. That's bad news. But what they do have is a lot of players who live for this time of year, especially Kennedy and Anderson. He reunited Sittler and MacDonald, and call me crazy, but I think Brian Sutter (he of multiple 40-goal/250-PIM seasons) might fit better on that line than Tiger Williams.

The big matchup is Gainey-Sutter-Provost vs. Kamensky-Gretzky-Kurri. Expect to see Gainey's line, and likely Bouchard, to be matched up against Gretzky's line in the three games in Burnaby. This is the best bet in the draft to contain Gretzky's line. The one caveat for Burnaby is this: the Mountaineers will want to get Gretzky away from that match-up, but the other three lines are tough to play against as well. There isn't a defensively weak line in the line-up.

Burnaby has a definite edge in coaching. Then again, Burnaby will have a definite coaching edge against every team remaining, except for Moscow, and that wouldn't happen until the final.

This is going to be an awesome series. It'll go the distance.

BM67
11-29-2006, 11:53 PM
Murphy2, I will definitely take you to task with your comment that Otto is overrated. If anything, he's underrated. Scouts across the world are still looking for the next Joel Otto: a big, strong centre who dominates physically AND defensively, is a force in the faceoff circle, and can get you 50 points per season. We've seen reasonable facsimilies (Primeau, Holik at various points in their careers) but nobody who has come into the league and come close to what Otto could do. Prototypes are never overrated.

I'll take you to task for overrating Otto's offense. He had five 50+ point seasons playing during one of the highest scoring periods in NHL history. He never reached 60, and if you throw out his PP goals, he falls to 50 points or below in all those years. He was never in the top 5 scorers on his team in even 1 year of his career. He likely wouldn't get a sniff of 50 points in this league or any of the last 10 years of the NHL.

God Bless Canada
11-30-2006, 12:28 AM
I'll take you to task for overrating Otto's offense. He had five 50+ point seasons playing during one of the highest scoring periods in NHL history. He never reached 60, and if you throw out his PP goals, he falls to 50 points or below in all those years. He was never in the top 5 scorers on his team in even 1 year of his career. He likely wouldn't get a sniff of 50 points in this league or any of the last 10 years of the NHL.

Some fair observations, but at the same time, after his first three seasons, he was never in a situation where he was going to be a go-to guy on offence. From 1988 to 1992, he was stuck behind Gilmour and Nieuwendyk. Then he was stuck behind Nieuwendyk and Reichel. And say what you will about Robert Reichel, nobody will ever deny the guy's offensive potential.

I think if you put Otto in a situation where he could be an offensive player with quality wingers, I think he scores 60 points consistently, maybe hits 70, during those years in Calgary. His best offensive season was as a rookie in 85-86, when he was playing a more important role in the offence. And in 87-88, he scored at a 65-point pace. I don't think it's a coincidence that his pace fell off when Gilmour arrived.

I'm not bothered that he wasn't a top five scorer on the Flames from 1985 to 1993, simply because a) that was a dynamic Calgary team, loaded with scorers; and b) after he first three seasons, he wasn't put in a position to score goals. You can counter that guys like Dan Quinn and Carey Wilson finished in the top five, but skill was never a problem for those two players. (Although Otto was fourth in Calgary's post-season scoring in 1989, and I'm usually more impressed by a guy who finishes fourth in playoff scoring on a Cup champ, than by a guy who finishes fifth in scoring on a team that gets eliminated in the first round).

He wasn't going to be the offensive player that some thought he would be coming out of college, where he had a couple big seasons. Yeah, he played Div. II, but he was good enough to get nominated for the Hobey Baker. A lot of people had very high hopes for him as a point producer. He just didn't have that creative flair with the puck to put up 80 to 90 points. But he thought the game well, he had a really good shot and he had quick hands. Put him in the right situation in today's NHL, he'd get at least 50-55 points per season in a second line role.

Nalyd Psycho
11-30-2006, 03:18 AM
Just thought I'd mention, according to his hall of fame bio, Babe Siebert won the Hart as a defenceman.

VanIslander
11-30-2006, 07:48 AM
Just thought I'd mention, according to his hall of fame bio, Babe Siebert won the Hart as a defenceman.
He was a skilled forward who converted to defense when he got too slow and he thrived with his offensive instincts, winning the Hart soon after moving to the blueline as an offensive-skilled d-man. Not the best player to stop the 5000+ NHL goals combined experienced scorers on the Mountaineers. He was NO Pronger.

Murphy
11-30-2006, 10:54 AM
Just thought I'd mention, according to his hall of fame bio, Babe Siebert won the Hart as a defenceman.

Just thought I'd mention that Babe Pratt won a Hart as a defensman also, thats two Hart Trophy winners.......:D

Murphy
11-30-2006, 11:57 AM
Adam Graves - Wayne Gretzky - Jari Kurri
Brendan Shanahan - Jeremy Roenick - Steve Larmer
Brian Propp - Guy Carbonneau - Jere Lehtinen

The four players not on the shortened bench of three lines will still see action, strategically as Bowman likes it. With Otto as backup for face-offs (though all centres on the team are excellent at it), Tiger Williams to handle shifts on Gretz's line if a Semenko type enforcer is needed, as at times it may against this opponent, and Kamensky for the top line on offensive face-offs when seeking a tying goal.

I'd shorten that bench if I was you also VanIslander..........;)

I'd imagine the Carbonneau line would mostly matchup with Teeder line. No clear advantage for either there. Strong defensive line vs my 1st line. It'll be a saw-off

The Roenick line match's up with the Sittler line. This is probably when the best hockey will be played. Both lines matchup well and bring everything. I think the Moutaineers have better wingers here but Sittler is much better than Roenick. They'll trade scoring chances and this is where the goaltending advantage will come into play.

The Sutter line vs the Gretzky line will be the key matchup of the series and Johnson will be looking to get them out there at every opportunity. I think a Semenko type enforcer will eventually be needed VanIslander and that should play to the Oilers advantage. With Sutter shadowing and doing what he does best he'll get under Gretzky's skin and frustrate him. You can't hit him but you can get the odd shot in. I'd like to think his linemates being covered closely will be a cause for frustration also. Gretz and Kurri have never seen the likes of Gainey and Provost before and this team is probably the best of them all in containing them.

One thing about having Tiger in the lineup is he'll take alot of penalties and mostly bad ones. He was never shy about doing that in his quest for payback. If he does get out of line and not that Brent Sutter can't take care of himself but Ted Green will be there. Ted Green vs Tiger Williams....wow, that would be something to see.

So with Williams in the penalty box the subject of special teams comes up. I'd imagine what would be most effective and fortunately I have the horses for the blueline to control, set up and bomb shots from the points. Tips and rebounds and scoring ugly will be the Oilers powerplay forte.

1st unit: Vic Hadfield - Teeder Kennedy - Glenn Anderson

Pierre Pilote - Babe Pratt

2nd unit: Brian Sutter - Darryl Sittler - Lanny McDonald

Babe Siebert - Ilya Kovalchuk

Not the prettiest bunch up front but better than most for scoring the ugly type goals. The key will be controlling the play from the blueline where the Oilers strength is.

Penalty killing is a major strength here.

1st unit: Bob Gainey - Claude Provost

Leo Boivin - Butch Bouchard

Some major crease clearing power there.

2nd unit: Brent Sutter - Brian Sutter

Pierre Pilot - Ted Green

Two Sutters together, I like that, Dave Poulin will see some time killing penalties as well, probably when Pilote needs a rest. Of course the best penalty killer of them all will be Terry Sawchuk, I'd like to get Brimsek in for a game as well. If the series goes 7 which it probably will I'd envision Brimsek getting in for game 4 to give Sawchuk a rest.

Wisent
11-30-2006, 01:27 PM
I absolutelz love the defense of Burnaby. They are rock solid and mobile. Great pairings with a shut down and an offensive guy. Suchy was a great pick. The 3rd pair of Davydov and Kuzkin played quite a bit together and that is actually the reason I would give Kuzkin the nod over Solugobov on that pair. Just all all a very solid defense. So comparing the defense I have to give the advantage to Burnaby especially in the depth department.

The first line of Burnaby is outstanding as well, complementing Kurri and Gretzky with Kamensky should provide good scoring. Probably more than the first line of Edmonton (I still see Kovalchuk as a weak part as the first line LW). The key for Edmonton to win this series should be the 2nd and 3rd line. If they are able to shut down the first line especially (the 2nd of Burnaby is not that scary IMO) they should be able to win a few. I think that these two lines have the ability to play the gritty and hard game that just might be able to break the first line.
By offensive standards I have to give the nod to Burnaby as well but when considering two way play and defense, I think that Edmonton has a clear edge. That 3rd line will be a ***** to play against and the 2nd is not too shabby either.

Edmonton has the clear edge in goaltending. Sawchuk and Brimsek are heads and shoulders over Vernon and the Beezer.

This should be a very close series.

VanIslander
11-30-2006, 02:57 PM
The 3rd pair of Davydov and Kuzkin played quite a bit together and that is actually the reason I would give Kuzkin the nod over Solugobov on that pair. Just all all a very solid defense.
Glad you noticed.

Davydov and Kuzkin have chemistry together as "one of the best [pairings] in Soviet hockey history". Davydov is the star of the pairing. He chose not to go to the 1972 Summit Series, despite being the nation's #1 defenseman at the time, as protest over a decision to change their coach, a move he made with fellow Soviet great, forward Anatoli Firsov. Now, given how dam competitive the Soviets were in that Series against the likes of Clarke, Esposito, Mahavolich, Perreault, Dionne, Mikita, you'd think a defenseman considered to be on the top pairing of their national team at the time must have been fantastic! We all know Vasiliev was great, in fact, his physicality caused the Canadian greats real trouble in the Summit Series. He had the opportunity to shine in front of a Canadian audience. Davydov didn't, unfortunately. He did win nine World Championships and three Olympic golds as a 1960s dominant player, and if the Summit Series of '72 taught Canadians anything, it's that Soviet hockey of that time was just as competitive as NHL hockey (in fact, the Soviets gave up less goals than the Canadians did in that Series, a fact they've used to claim they won it). Nikolai Sologubov is the 7th d-man who could see minutes int he series of course, as Bowman likes to dress seven blueliners. He was a superstar of an earlier era, named best defenseman of the World Championships in 1956, 1957, and 1960, was team captain and much respected in the USSR, even having a trophy named after him. Was the Soviets of the 50s as competitive as the Soviets of the 60s and '72? I think the farther you go back from the Summit Series the more question marks one has. Hence the reason why he's in the 7th spot. And in bringing them together, Bowman is the perfect coach for these guys, having done very well coaching Russians in the NHL. ;)

The Mountaineers have been built as the type of team that doesn't need their goaltender to stand on his head. The defense and wingers will act in unison to limit opportunities (and the Oilers are not the sort of offensive threat to require a fabulous starter to stop them! Mountaineer goalies would have trouble against Lemieux, Jagr, Bossy, but won't have as much trouble - and will have plenty of help - against Sittler, Kovalchuk, Anderson). Burnaby's opponent, Sawchuk, however, will have to face MacInnis' slapshot, the wizardry of Gretzky, one-timers from Kurri and Shanahan in his face.

Murphy
11-30-2006, 03:14 PM
Glad you noticed.

Now, given how dam competitive the Soviets were in that Series against the likes of Clarke, Esposito, Mahavolich, Perreault, Dionne, Mikita, you'd think a defenseman considered to be on the top pairing of their national team at the time must have been fantastic and if the Summit Series of '72 taught Canadians anything, it's that Soviet hockey of that time was just as competitive as NHL hockey (in fact, the Soviets gave up less goals than the Canadians did in that Series, a fact they've used to claim they won it).

Thats just crazy talk, we all know we didn't send our best and what we did send were overconfident and out of shape.....;)

Murphy
11-30-2006, 03:33 PM
The Mountaineers have been built as the type of team that doesn't need their goaltender to stand on his head. The defense and wingers will act in unison to limit opportunities (and the Oilers are not the sort of offensive threat to require a fabulous starter to stop them! Mountaineer goalies would have trouble against Lemieux, Jagr, Bossy, but won't have as much trouble - and will have plenty of help - against Sittler, Kovalchuk, Anderson). Burnaby's opponent, Sawchuk, however, will have to face MacInnis' slapshot, the wizardry of Gretzky, one-timers from Kurri and Shanahan in his face.

Hmmmmm, doesn't need a goaltender to stand his head, I sense a little overconfidence creeping into the locker room.......;)

So a guy like Sittler (who has the one record that Gretzky couldn't break) won't know how to put one behind Vernon? He's going to stone 50 goal scorer's like Hadfield, McDonald and Kovalchuk? The fourth in all-time playoff points Anderson is going to be shut out? Even the powerhouse Oilers needed Fuhr to stand on his head in the playoffs. I've seen Vernon play Mr VanIslander and Vernon is no Fuhr.......:D

Sawchuk faced Bobby Hull, MacInnis won't be much of a problem and Claude Provost won't be allowing Kurri much room to get away one timers or allowing two on ones.

Frightened Inmate #2
11-30-2006, 03:38 PM
Thats just crazy talk, we all know we didn't send our best and what we did send were overconfident and out of shape.....;)

I also wonder about some of the Soviet players who didn't go because of coaching issues - I would think that in the Soviet Union if they told you to play. You played. Lets face it freedoms were not really an option in the Soviet Union. It might seem cynical and all but I have a hard time believing that he really would have been the best Soviet defenseman on the team no matter what a couple of Soviet press clippings might say. Could it be more excuses as to why they lost than anything else.

Also every goaltender in the NHL playoffs is counted on to make the big saves, just look at the Kings in the late 80s early 90s. They had some very good teams but what they were lacking was a goaltender who could hold them in games during the barrages (which every team is prone to giving up). You can't be on the attack for 60 mintues a game and that is when your average defense as well as below average goaltending is going to come to bite your team in the ***.

Actually the LA Kings of the early 90s are exactly what your team reminds me of

Wisent
11-30-2006, 03:50 PM
I also wonder about some of the Soviet players who didn't go because of coaching issues - I would think that in the Soviet Union if they told you to play. You played. Lets face it freedoms were not really an option in the Soviet Union. It might seem cynical and all but I have a hard time believing that he really would have been the best Soviet defenseman on the team no matter what a couple of Soviet press clippings might say. Could it be more excuses as to why they lost than anything else.

Also every goaltender in the NHL playoffs is counted on to make the big saves, just look at the Kings in the late 80s early 90s. They had some very good teams but what they were lacking was a goaltender who could hold them in games during the barrages (which every team is prone to giving up). You can't be on the attack for 60 mintues a game and that is when your average defense as well as below average goaltending is going to come to bite your team in the ***.

Actually the LA Kings of the early 90s are exactly what your team reminds me of
That probably was the case in the 50s but not in the 70s anymore. There were soem cases were people had issues with the coach and they didn`t want to play or opened their mouth and were scratched. Also for instance guys like Ivanov had a hard time to get in the team because he the coach had already an opinion about him and although he played good hockey didn`t get many chances because the coach thought that 5 years before he wasn`t good enough. Davydov was probably still good enough to play a number one role on that team in 72.

God Bless Canada
12-03-2006, 12:50 AM
When analyzing a series, I look at six areas: offence (which includes offensive contributions from the blue line); defence (which includes defensive forwards); goaltending; coaching; grit; and intangibles (a huge category IMO, as playoff series, especially in a draft like this, will be won on such things as character, leadership, work ethic, sacrifice and a winning mentality). And I'll be honest: in three categories, I think it's a dead heat. Dead heat for defence. Dead heat for grit. And dead heat for intangibles.

The consensus seems to be that Vancouver/Calgary will win the other series, and do so in five or six games. The winner of this series will be a survivor. Elvi has to like his chances knowing how brutal this series is going to be.

BM67
12-03-2006, 10:04 AM
Coaching: While Badger Bob is by no means a bad coach, Scotty Bowman is the best of all-time. Advantage: Burnaby

Goaltending: While I'm not sure how Hainsworth got demoted to the spare goalie for Burnaby, I still have to say they have only solid goaltending. The Oilers on the other hand have spectacular goaltending. Even if Sawchuk is injured, Brimsek is a worthy starter in this league. Advantage: Edmonton

Defense: Undersized defense anyone? A strange matchup where the forwards on both teams are bigger than their defense. While neither team has that stud #1 defender, both have a solid second tier player with a solid supporter on their top pairing. While I think the Pilote - Bouchard tandem is slightly better, Al's huge slapper is a threat to both score and remove a player, or more, from the series. On the 2nd pairings, I have to give a slight nod to Suchy - Ramsey, as having the smaller man as the defensive defenseman is less than ideal. Not knowing as much about the Euros that make up the rest of the Burnaby backline, I hesitate to give the advantage to the Oilers on the 3rd pairings, but I have to think that Sologubov is much more likely to make an impact on the series than Roberts. Advantage: Burnaby, very slightly (Hmm..., Pitre could swing it the other way.)

Forwards: The Gretzky line is clearly the cream of the crop, and although they will face a first rate checking line, they will put up some points, and be potent on special teams. The Kennedy line will be in tough against Carbonneau's line, but the speed advantage of Anderson - Kovalchuk should see them spring free every once in a while. The rest of the forwards are a coin flip, and some great head to head matchups. McKenney is a better spare than Williams, and the Oilers also have Siebert and Roberts as options. Advantage: Gretzky gives Burnaby the edge, but after that it's very even

Overall: Sawchuk vs Bowman and Gretzky. Special teams could be the deciding factor in this one. As long as MacInnis doesn't hit Gretzky with a slapper, Burnaby in 7.

Frightened Inmate #2
12-03-2006, 08:14 PM
Coaching: Really Bowman is quite possibly the best of all time and while I do like Badger I just don't think he matches up very well Advantage: Burnaby

Goaltending: I have always said that Burnaby's weakness is their goaltending and this series is no exception, no matter who they put in net I don't think that they will be a #1 goaltender. My feelings on Vernon are clear - he just doesn't have what it takes in an all-time draft and his playoff record is very hit or miss. The early 90s failures of the Flames can in no small part be put on the door of Mike Vernon and his very poor showings. Should his play in 89 and 98 be enough to put him over the top and make him into a starter in an all time draft - I think that the obvious answer is no. And what more can be said about Sawchuk? Advantage: Edmonton (and a large advantage at that)

Defense: I think that this is as close to a wash as you can get in an all time draft although I do like the depth of Edmonton over the depth of Burnaby - I just have the questions regarding the European players from the late 40's and the 50's due in no small part to weak competition. Edmonton on the other hand has a number of solid two-way defensemen who while they won't chip in on the offensive side of things will be able to change a game due to solid positioning and keeping the puck out of their net. Advantage: Edmonton (a slight one at that though)

Offense: Gretzky - Kurri is the main concern from Edmonton's standpoint - past that I am not all that impressed however. Shanahan is nice but Roenick is not a player I would want on a second line in an all time draft and the same goes for Larmer. After that the lines seem somewhat convoluted where Turgeon just doesn't belong where he is and the lines just seem somewhat off. I do like the fourth line a lot though - doesn't provide much in terms of offense but it is one of the best defensive lines in the draft. Edmonton on the other hand doesn't have the same top offensive performer that Burnaby has but they make up for that in spades with the other players on their roster known for their postseason play. I still do think that goals will be hard to come by though. Gainey and Provost should be able to match up well against the Gretzky - Kurri line. Overall I have to say that there is an advantage to Burnaby.

Intangibles: I see a lot more leadership from the Edmonton ranks than I do from Burnaby. Just seem like a harder working bunch - the lunch pail guys who show up and get the job done anyway that they can. Advantage: Edmonton

Overall I don't have a clue by gut says Edmonton while my brain keeps on thinking of the Gretzky factor and how that will play into the equation. Whatever the result it is going to be a long seven game series in my opinion.

VanIslander
12-03-2006, 08:49 PM
Should his play in 89 and 98 be enough to put him over the top and make him into a starter in an all time draft
Five years not two. And he's a playoff starter for his success those five postseasons. Against the Edmonton offense, it's what's needed. Nothing flashy, just get the job done.

Vernon (1) came off the bench to solidly play in the Memorial Cup, backstopping to a championship and named top netminder. Then (2) as a NHL rookie he led the Flames to the Stanley Cup Finals. (3) Three years later he led them to the Stanley Cup. Then in 1995, (4) his first year in Detroit, Vernon backstopped the Red Wings to the Stanley Cup Finals only to run into the Devils. Then two years later (5) Vernon led the Wings to the Stanley Cup and Vernon won the Conn Smythe, not for heartstopping incredible saves but for consistent, reliable play.

That's why he's starting against an underwhelming Oilers offense. He is not needed to steal games. Against this opponent, the play will largely be at the other end.

I just have the questions regarding the European players from the late 40's and the 50's due in no small part to weak competition.
Good because NONE of the starting Mountaineer defensemen are from the '40s and 50s.

Two are from the late '60s/early 70s, one of them in the '72 Summit Series and the other, his star pairing partner, sat out in a coaching protest along with Firsov. The Mountaineers seventh d-man, Sogolubov, is from the '50s/early 60s but he may see limited action, yet was much honored and respected.

The Oilers have several guys from the old pre-60s NHL on their blueline but I don't hold it against them. Their lack of size has to be an issue though.

will finish later
We await your SIXTH negative post on this thread about the team from Burnaby.

Frightened Inmate #2
12-04-2006, 01:10 AM
Five years not two. And he's a playoff starter for his success those five postseasons. Against the Edmonton offense, it's what's needed. Nothing flashy, just get the job done.

Vernon (1) came off the bench to solidly play in the Memorial Cup, backstopping to a championship and named top netminder. Then (2) as a NHL rookie he led the Flames to the Stanley Cup Finals. (3) Three years later he led them to the Stanley Cup. Then in 1995, (4) his first year in Detroit, Vernon backstopped the Red Wings to the Stanley Cup Finals only to run into the Devils. Then two years later (5) Vernon led the Wings to the Stanley Cup and Vernon won the Conn Smythe, not for heartstopping incredible saves but for consistent, reliable play.


1. I don't care about the Memorial Cup at all when it comes to discussing who is an all time great.
2. '86 Vernon did play well I will agree with that.
3. 95 he was on one of the best teams that I have ever seen from top to bottom and they were expected to steamroll the opposition which they did for the first three rounds until the finals were Vernon's performance was less than impressive and in the final two games he let in five goals in both contests.
4. Yes he did win the Conn Smythe in the 1997 playoffs, what you don't mention is that Chris Osgood was also able to lead that team to the cup - a team that was actually weaker due to the loss of Konstantinov. The Red Wings didn't require that elite goaltender in order to win. They were that good.

1990 - First round exit, including one of the worst displays of goaltending I have ever seen in the playoffs in a 12-1 dismantling of the Calgary Flames by the LA Kings
1991 - First round exit where the Flames choked away a three goal (I think it was three at least) lead and lost the game in overtime.
1992 - Missed playoffs (best team to miss the playoffs in my opinion)
1993 - Lost badly to LA in the first round with two games of 9 goals being scored against the Flames (some were against Reese though).
1994 - Part of a Flames team that choked away a 3-1 series lead against the Canucks (which I am forever grateful for)
1996 - Osgood replaced Vernon.
1998/1999 - First round exit against the Dallas Stars & Colorado Avalanche (I must admit I didn't really watch these series so I don't know much about his play).

I watched Vernon when he was with Calgary and as I said he is either hit or miss and in an all time draft against the all time greats that is going to be a significant problem for your team.


That's why he's starting against an underwhelming Oilers offense. He is not needed to steal games. Against this opponent, the play will largely be at the other end.


Sort of a cocky attitude that you have going on there with regards to your team as your offense isn't that much better than what the Oilers can throw at you and I would actually say they have more depth than you do and depth is what wins championships.


Good because NONE of the starting Mountaineer defensemen are from the '40s and 50s.


Well if you discount Sogolubov, Davydov and Kuzkin you didn't have any Soviet players from the 1950's.... but then I guess you didn't do that much research into when the actually played. (Kuzkin started 1958 and Davydov roughly at the same time period with both retiring in the early 70s when Soviet hockey was really hitting it's stride roughly around 1965-1970 (I would say from what I have read and what you can infer from a hockey establishment closed off from the western world at the time)


Two are from the late '60s/early 70s, one of them in the '72 Summit Series and the other, his star pairing partner, sat out in a coaching protest along with Firsov. The Mountaineers seventh d-man, Sogolubov, is from the '50s/early 60s but he may see limited action, yet was much honored and respected.


I have doubts regarding Davydov being the #1 d-man at the summit series considering he retired the year after the series (1973). When watching the 1972 series on DVD Kuzkin didn't really stand out but next time I do watch it I will keep an eye out for him. It is a shame that all we really have to go on to judge some of these players are press clippings and an 8 game series.


The Oilers have several guys from the old pre-60s NHL on their blueline but I don't hold it against them. Their lack of size has to be an issue though.


I has nothing to do with the time that they played but rather the strength of competition which can be used in order to get a rough estimate as to the strength of the teams in question.

Nalyd Psycho
12-04-2006, 01:11 AM
Does anyone else want to vote Burnaby and Calgary just so we can get Lone Elvi and VanIslander really going at it?

pitseleh
12-04-2006, 01:23 AM
Does anyone else want to vote Burnaby and Calgary just so we can get Lone Elvi and VanIslander really going at it?

:D

VanIslander
12-04-2006, 05:35 AM
... your offense isn't that much better than what the Oilers can throw at you and I would actually say they have more depth than you do and depth is what wins championships.
Do they have over 1300 NHL goals on the third line?

I just don't think the Oiler offense is going to test the Mountaineers as much as teams with Jagr, Lemieux, Bossy, Orr, Howe, etc. I expect the Oilers equally physical forward core and goaltending to make a series of it, pushing it to 6 or 7 games, though I thought it would be over in 5 games before the series began. Wonders never cease.

Intangibles: I see a lot more leadership from the Edmonton ranks than I do from Burnaby. Just seem like a harder working bunch - the lunch pail guys who show up and get the job done anyway that they can.
Burnaby is built on type-a personalities, full-tilt guys, that's something that Roenick has in his favour, Graves, Larmer, Lehtinen and Carbonneau exude, and Kurri, Gretz and Shanny do consistently: show up and get it done. There are teams with TONS of great leaders, but I have a hard time believing that leadership is an Oiler strength relative to other teams in the playoffs.

Anyways, voting time. Good luck to every team in every division.

Murphy
12-04-2006, 04:26 PM
There are teams with TONS of great leaders, but I have a hard time believing that leadership is an Oiler strength relative to other teams in the playoffs.

Anyways, voting time. Good luck to every team in every division.

I can't remember exact numbers but it was around 14 of my players wore the C and Green wore an A, Siebert and Ditre I don't know but Sieberts character is mentioned a couple times in his Legends bio. The only guy I don't think wore any kind of letter was Anderson. I built this team specifically with leaders in mind, so yes it's a strength.

And my third line doesn't have 1300 goals, it was built to stop that many goals....

Murphy
12-04-2006, 06:40 PM
Does anyone else want to vote Burnaby and Calgary just so we can get Lone Elvi and VanIslander really going at it?

Ummmmm, NO!

But it would make for some great reading

Frightened Inmate #2
12-04-2006, 08:36 PM
Do they have over 1300 NHL goals on the third line?


Here is the way that the lines break down in my opinion - you have the obvious upper hand on the first line with the Gretzky - Kurri combination. However on the second line there isn't even a competition as to what the better line is, I mean Sittler vs. Roenick is a huge mismatch as is McDonald vs. Larmer. I would much rather have Shanahan but that doesn't wipe out the advantage that Edmonton has at the other positions. You say that the third line has 1300 goals - while the line in general just doesn't look that good to me Turgeon is a player who while tallented has a poor reputation for putting that tallent to any use. Propp needed the right players to click (and I don't really think that is Turgeon). I do like Lehtinen though.

Edmonton on the other hand has Gainey who can fit into the third line role like a glove as well as Provost who is in my opinion the equal of Lehtinen. Sutter on the other hand is one of the best possible third line centers.

You do have the better fourth line but really in terms of depth you need to look at who has the better second and third line.


I just don't think the Oiler offense is going to test the Mountaineers as much as teams with Jagr, Lemieux, Bossy, Orr, Howe, etc. I expect the Oilers equally physical forward core and goaltending to make a series of it, pushing it to 6 or 7 games, though I thought it would be over in 5 games before the series began. Wonders never cease.


Offensive potential really isn't the Oilers strength but they seem to be a team that will score by committee which could be a huge problem for your team as it somewhat neutralizes your strong defensive fourth line...


Burnaby is built on type-a personalities, full-tilt guys, that's something that Roenick has in his favour, Graves, Larmer, Lehtinen and Carbonneau exude, and Kurri, Gretz and Shanny do consistently: show up and get it done. There are teams with TONS of great leaders, but I have a hard time believing that leadership is an Oiler strength relative to other teams in the playoffs.


I don't really view a lot of those players as great leaders. Great players yes but great leaders no. On your team Carbanneau, Otto and Shanahan are the real leaders and they don't match up to Kennedy in any way shape or form. Just playing at an elite level doesn't necessarly make a player a leader.


Anyways, voting time. Good luck to every team in every division.

It will be an interesting series and I really think it could go either way.

VanIslander
12-08-2006, 07:52 AM
If this is the game 7 OT series....

Did you know that Jeremy Roenick is tired with Wayne Gretzky fourth all time in most overtime playoff goals with 4 each? (That's saying a lot given how JR has played on poor Phoenix and Chicago for so many years). And Jari Kurri has the most playoff goals in a series and is Top-10 in overtime goals and third in most playoff game winners in one playoffs with 5. Gretzky and Kurri also trail only Messier in most shorthanded playoff goals with a combined 21 (that's 21 SHG in the playoffs!!) and Roenick is tied for the lead in most shorthanded playoff goals in one period of play with 2.

And did you know that Al MacInnis is Top-20 all time among ALL NHL skaters in playoff points with a 160, in a tie with Gordie Howe and Mike Bossy... the best ever for a defenseman not named Coffey or Bourque (and imagine what he could've done if he didn't spend so many years in finals-deprived St. Louis?).

And other than Trottier (not in this series) MacInnis joins Gretzky with the longest playoff scoring streak ever at 19 straight games.

And Brian Propp is tied for third for most ever playoff powerplay goals with 8. And Valeri Kamensky is tied for most ever playoff powerplay goals in one game with 3 (Kurri also has 3 as well as a few others not in this series).

Overtime and special teams are a competitive advantage for the Mountaineers, and it was designed that way.

But, of course, in OT, anything goes. Bounces don't always go your way even if they usually do.

Awaiting the result of the series with bated breath.

Murphy
12-08-2006, 01:13 PM
McInnis and Gretzky's point streak ends in this series........:whaaa?:

Nalyd Psycho
12-08-2006, 02:32 PM
I'll say this. This is the series that went to a double tie-breaker. And as such, it's the one I'm saving to last.

One of you will be Sweden circa '94, the other, Canada...

Frightened Inmate #2
12-08-2006, 02:38 PM
If this is the game 7 OT series....

Did you know that Jeremy Roenick is tired with Wayne Gretzky fourth all time in most overtime playoff goals with 4 each? (That's saying a lot given how JR has played on poor Phoenix and Chicago for so many years). And Jari Kurri has the most playoff goals in a series and is Top-10 in overtime goals and third in most playoff game winners in one playoffs with 5. Gretzky and Kurri also trail only Messier in most shorthanded playoff goals with a combined 21 (that's 21 SHG in the playoffs!!) and Roenick is tied for the lead in most shorthanded playoff goals in one period of play with 2.


Is that advantage nullified by having Anderson on the other team - a player who is third in playoff overtime goals?

Kurri while great in 1985 scored 12 of his goals in what has to be considered one of the biggest mismatches of a conference finals since 1967 where the Oilers scored 44 goals in 6 games including 2 games where they scored 10 or more goals in a game... stats like that are nice but you need to take them in context once and a while. He scored 12 goals in one series and 7 in the other three... is that the best example of a clutch player or is that an example of a great player playing against a very weak team.

Plus if you are putting Roenick out on the penalty kill that only says good things about othe teams chances.


And did you know that Al MacInnis is Top-20 all time among ALL NHL skaters in playoff points with a 160, in a tie with Gordie Howe and Mike Bossy... the best ever for a defenseman not named Coffey or Bourque (and imagine what he could've done if he didn't spend so many years in finals-deprived St. Louis?).

And other than Trottier (not in this series) MacInnis joins Gretzky with the longest playoff scoring streak ever at 19 straight games, which they each did twice!!


I am doing the math in my head looking at the stats and I have no idea how you are getting that MacInnis was able to have 19 game point streaks two times. I know that it happened once in the 89 Flames playoff run (and I think he had some points in the 1990 series against Edmonton) but really after that I can't figure out where you are getting your information from....


And Brian Propp is tied for third for most ever playoff powerplay goals with 8. And Valeri Kamensky is tied for most ever playoff powerplay goals in one period with 3 (Kurri also has 3 as well as a few others not in this series).

The most powerplay goals in a period is a record held by Kerr (who is not on your team I am afraid, and no one else has scored as many. Not even Kamensky or Kurri I am afraid.

I sort of hope that I don't run into you in the next round (if I make it) I am sure you will try and convince us that Gretzky landed on the moon and Kurri played a large role in the destruction of the Berlin wall through his song 99 Red Baloons.

VanIslander
12-08-2006, 02:58 PM
If this is the game 7 OT series....

Did you know that Jeremy Roenick is tired with Wayne Gretzky fourth all time in most overtime playoff goals with 4 each? (That's saying a lot given how JR has played on poor Phoenix and Chicago for so many years). And Jari Kurri has the most playoff goals in a series and is Top-10 in overtime goals and third in most playoff game winners in one playoffs with 5. Gretzky and Kurri also trail only Messier in most shorthanded playoff goals with a combined 21 (that's 21 SHG in the playoffs!!) and Roenick is tied for the lead in most shorthanded playoff goals in one period of play with 2.

And did you know that Al MacInnis is Top-20 all time among ALL NHL skaters in playoff points with a 160, in a tie with Gordie Howe and Mike Bossy... the best ever for a defenseman not named Coffey or Bourque (and imagine what he could've done if he didn't spend so many years in finals-deprived St. Louis?).

And other than Trottier (not in this series) MacInnis joins Gretzky with the longest playoff scoring streak ever at 19 straight games.

And Brian Propp is tied for third for most ever playoff powerplay goals with 8. And Valeri Kamensky is tied for most ever playoff powerplay goals in one game with 3 (Kurri also has 3 as well as a few others not in this series).

Overtime and special teams are a competitive advantage for the Mountaineers, and it was designed that way.

But, of course, in OT, anything goes. Bounces don't always go your way even if they usually do.

Awaiting the result of the series with bated breath.
fixed

Murphy
12-08-2006, 03:10 PM
Negotiations are underway to hire Lone Elvi as my agent...