Why isn't German hockey bigger?

Just curious.
I would have thought it was the kind of sport that would do well in Germany.
I remember them playing well against the smaller European nations for decades, but they never seem to make the step into a true contender for the championship.
I've been told that Fotboll is the national sport, but still in a country with so many people there should be market for others. I've also been told that German hockey import many foreign over the hill players, stiffling developement, but if that's the reason why don't put a limit on it?
I mean, if the tiny Czech Republic can put up both a hockey and fotball team that challenge for championships, why doesn't Germany?

Well, parts of the country simply don't have the climate for it, and there aren't nearly enough rinks for anybody to play hockey in freetime, heck, even junior-teams are having trouble getting practise-time. Not to mention that there aren't any ponds which freeze in winter unless you live in the South.

Hockey is a sport which not many people can play, and while skating is very popular, hockey is simply too expensive in comparison to all the other sports. There are quite a few sports which are easier and cheaper, and football really blows everything out of the water. It's not like in Scandinavia or eastern Europe, were hockey has a lasting tradition, here it's more of an afterthought.
It's not easy to get bigger, when you have football in the way, and you lack the success other smaller sports have. We just won the Handball world championships, we've got quite a good Basketball team as well, not too mention field hockey, Biathlon or bobsled were we absolutely own the place. In hockey, on the other hand, it's a huge success if we advance to the quarterfinal or aren't relegated (mostly juniors), that's not enough to get noticed. Especially if there is no hockey to watch in free-tv.


There is a limit on foreigners, most teams don't have those over-the-hill players anymore. Foreigners are counted on being the teams best players which leads to less Germans playing in important roles.
I'd guess many teams would like to use more German talents, but if they do, they lose quite a lot of money if they fail. Many fans would like to see more Germans, but the majority wants their team to win. Needless to say, if they don't, they won't come to see the games.

Hockey is a sport which not many people can play, and while skating is very popular, hockey is simply too expensive in comparison to all the other sports. There are quite a few sports which are easier and cheaper, and football really blows everything out of the water. It's not like in Scandinavia or eastern Europe, were hockey has a lasting tradition, here it's more of an afterthought.
It's not easy to get bigger, when you have football in the way, and you lack the success other smaller sports have. We just won the Handball world championships, we've got quite a good Basketball team as well, not too mention field hockey, Biathlon or bobsled were we absolutely own the place. In hockey, on the other hand, it's a huge success if we advance to the quarterfinal or aren't relegated (mostly juniors), that's not enough to get noticed. Especially if there is no hockey to watch in free-tv.
There is a limit on foreigners, most teams don't have those over-the-hill players anymore. Foreigners are counted on being the teams best players which leads to less Germans playing in important roles.
I'd guess many teams would like to use more German talents, but if they do, they lose quite a lot of money if they fail. Many fans would like to see more Germans, but the majority wants their team to win. Needless to say, if they don't, they won't come to see the games.

Yeah, the attention problem is a big one. Not only most people can't or won't watch it, but whereas you play basketball or handball in school, hockey is nearly invisible outside the hotbeds of the sport. So the kids outside of Bavaria, Berlin, Cologne,... won't grow up with some contact to the sport, so we only have a relative small pool of young talent. And today too many traditional hockey cities like Rosenheim, Riessersee or Landshut play in lower-tier leagues, with negatives like lower attractiveness for kids or a limited financial background.

I hope they set the foreigner limit down to 9+1 for the next step, that would be a balanced way for the national team and the clubs IMO. After that it'll take some years until the teams produce enough young talent to compensate the loss of more foreigners. In the long-run I hope for a limit of 7. Still a complete starting team + 1, but enough room for German players on the scoring lines. But that's a long way to go.

Bah, I just read the DEB newsletter with the announcement of the „Eishockey-Weltmeisterschaft 2010 – ein Chance für das deutsche Eishockey“ – Gremium. That's a nice dream, but how can you build a strong national team in 3 years? It's years too late :shakehead

Well, we might have a bit of luck that it's in 2010.

The Olympics are in the same year, and they are in Canada. After playing the Olympics, less players will be interested in playing the World Championship. Not that it would change all that much, but it improves our chances a little bit.


One thing I forgot to mention is the way hockey is taught here. The focus is on team play throughout the whole time, not on individual skill, which is one of the reasons why we don't produce many players with world class offensive skills.
We basically traded offensive skill for lots and lots of two-way forwards, who in the best case end up like Hecht or Sturm, but most often simply can't take over a game when it is needed.

Thanks for the replies.

Yes I suppose a competion with other established sports would be a factor, but even if hockey would be like seventh on the list of popularity in sports Germany is so large it should leave a fanbase big enough to achieve parity with say Finland, I would think..

Lack of outdoor ice is a problem of course, but the Czechs doesn’t seem to suffer from that problem. An while tradition is important I would think relative expensiveness of the sport would favour a country like Germany over say those of eastern Europe.

Foreigners are counted on being the teams best players which leads to less Germans playing in important roles.

That’s generally a good way to use foreign players , most players gets better when they play with better players, it’s when you fill a league with average imports that your own development will suffer.

Yeah, the attention problem is a big one. Not only most people can't or won't watch it, but whereas you play basketball or handball in school, hockey is nearly invisible outside the hotbeds of the sport.

This what I find strange. As I said I would have thought it would fit the German mindset, and hockey seems fairly successful with countries surrounding Germany, like Schweiz, Czech Slovakia and Sweden. I suppose some those have access to more open ice and tradition, but Germany seems to be able to achieve success with other wintersports like skiing biathlon etc, so why not Ice hockey?

Is it more money in the leagues of the smaller countries? Whats stopping Germany from say copying the Swedish model that seems to produce many high quality players from a rather small population base?

Actually, hockey is the no.2 team-sport when it comes to attendance, but it is one thing to watch, it is something entirely different to play. Again, there are way cheaper opportunities, and most of them are areas where Germany is sucessful. If you have to choose between cheap and successful and expensive and average, you usually choose the first option.

You can't compare Germany to Scandinavia, because Scandinavia is much colder. The only really comparable country would be France, and they are even worse at hockey.
Looking at a map, more than 1/3 of Germany is as flat as it gets, you can't expect to find much hockey there. The areas where you can find hockey aren't much larger than those in Czech Rep. or Switzerland.

As for why Germany is successful in other wintersports but not in hockey; I'd say that has two reasons. 1) better coaching and 2) you don't need nearly as many people to succeed. You need thousands upon thousand of players to challenge the hockey powers, you need maybe 100 athletes to field strong contenders in the other wintersports.

Germany has a large population, but most of them aren't interested in hockey. Of those who are, many don't have the opportunity to play. The amount that is left is rather small. If I remember correctly, all of the big hockey nations have more hockey players than Germany. 82 million people don't bring a better result than 5 million, if you end up with less people playing the sport.

It's sad, but there comes so much sports ahead of hockey in Germany.
Football, Car Racing(Formula 1), Boxing, Tennis, Handball, Basketball, Bicycle racing, Ski Alpin, Ski Jumping...I guess even Biathlon...
From year to year you can follow less about hockey in Germany.
I actually did see nothing on free TV about DEL (best german Hockey League)

German clubs have set a new attendance record this season, but in total number of spectators as in the average per club. (http://www.germanhockey.net/item.asp?ID=160) The building of new arena's and the succesful launch of the Hamburg-franchise have powered this development.

In my opinion there are two important factors that hold German hockey back more than anything else.

1. Germany has a lot of club fans but relatively few real hockey fans. In other words, there are on average over 11.000 people supporting hockey in Cologne, but how many people in Cologne watch other matches on TV, travel to games not involving Cologne? I was in Innsbruck for the World Championships a couple of years ago. Quite close to the German border. Yet only about twenty German hockey fans made the journey across the Alps to support their national team.

2. Lack of success for the national team. The recent handball championships in Germany have proven again that a good national team is key to success for a sport in Germany. Even though the general level of players in Germany is not bad, just look at the number playing in the NHL nowadays, the gap with the top nations is big and almost impossible to bridge. The bronze medal in 1976 was a huge boost to German hockey, but this is not likely to be repeated.

And it's hard for this sport to get new fans. I know this because I often aks my friends if they want to come with me. But they say: That's boring, who plays 20 minutes and have then 15(18) minutes break? And for a guy who has never watched hockey is it difficult to see where the Puck is. A hockey fan supposes where the puck is, because of his experience. I think a good Nationalteam would be important, because non-hockey fans are although interested in the Nationalteam. They sometimes ask me how they are playing and if they have a chance to win the next match.

Another problem is "King Soccer". No sport can reach Soccer in Germany. It's always the same. Monday morning @school...everyone talks about soccer and no one is interested in Hockey. Just a few are interested in it...when they grew up the learned "Soccer > the rest". And i know it from my friends...you take them with you to a Hockey Game and they like it. But it's difficult for them to pay the tickets...Soccer can be watched on free-TV while you ned to pay to see hockey. A succesfull German Nationalteam could help the sport, but honestly were just no. 8 or sth. like that in the World.

I'm not sure it's really necessary to be more popular then football,but the object should be to bring above those other secondary sports. It can be quite popular and still be behind football.

The problem with 7 foreign country players a team will be: who should score then? really...that would mean to fill the rosters up with Germans, over the league about 200, where from...? Germany's hockey is also in miscredit by watchers and media because of there economical (mis)stuctures. Every town, specialy smallers in the south, knows the problems with unpayed energy or even players. The managers are often kind of scary guys, that didn't succeed in other sports or branches. And you are right, most people cant see follow the puck when watching...especially after a couple of beers, what they are used to when watching soccer...

I'm not sure it's really necessary to be more popular then football,but the object should be to bring above those other secondary sports. It can be quite popular and still be behind football.

Nope, that´s so sad, but soccer is like cancer in Germany !!! If a company wants to spend some money in sports, it´ll always be in soccer. If you want to talk about sports, it´s just about soccer. There is a TV-Show each saturday evenig called "Sportschau" and it´s 100% about soccer. No other sports. NEVER !! They actually thought about installing a tax for soccer so that the german teams could pay more money to bring the stars from Italy, England or Spain to Germany !!! All about soccer, the politics, the business, the media...all about fu***** soccer...

They actually thought about installing a tax for soccer so that the german teams could pay more money to bring the stars from Italy, England or Spain to Germany !!!

That's bull..,sorry, not true....no one ever thought about taxes for sports, e.g. soccer :shakehead

True is, the "Sportschau" on Saturdays (during the soccer season) is all about soccer, because it's the soccer gameday. On Sundays it shows other sport events,too.

As a matter of fact, teams in Germany, in all sports, are kind of in a disadvantage, because unlike some other countries, athletes don't get a special treatment when it comes to taxes.

If I remember correctly, England considers football-players as artists, which means much lower taxes.


As for the tax for soccer, never heard of something like that. A politician might have mentioned it once, but they come up with lots of stupid ideas. Doesn't mean that those ideas get serious consideration.

Sanderson gets the point (-> http://www.fussballportal.de/bundesliga/Liga-soll-reizvoller-fuer-auslaendische-Stars-werden.php ). I´m pretty sure that there was sometimes a roumor about a special tax, but it was a yellowpress-stupid-thing, which was never a real deal or something...

I believe there are lots of funding issues unfortionately.

Attendance seems to be good. I just wish the national team could do better than hovering around relegation to Tier.II:shakehead

But seriously Handball is more popular?!?

Attendance seems to be good. I just wish the national team could do better than hovering around relegation to Tier.II:shakehead

The national team should remain in the top division now. There was a lot of coaching turmoil after switching from the successful (made the WHC quarterfinals several times in a row) but outdated and butt-ugly grinding style of Hans Zach to the inexperienced and less respected Greg Poss. With Uwe Krupp now there's a guy that demands respect and can motivate the troops. Also, the many young players brought to the national team in the past years are now growing into their roles.

The new problem however is that we now lose our best players to the NHL. For the last tournament we missed basically the whole 1st block (Sturm, Hecht, Goc, Ehrhoff, Schubert). And this will only get worse.

But seriously Handball is more popular?!?

Handball is having a bit of a boom right now because we won the World Championship there. But on the club level, handball is only really popular in the northern parts of the country. Most of the top level clubs are in the north, taking the place that hockey holds in the middle and southern parts. I'd say those two sports and basketball are in a tie behind the football which rules everything at all times despite being one of the most boring sports imaginable.

Football is anything but boring. There are some boring matches, but that's true for every sport there is.

The funny thing is, the most successful Handball teams are all in cities where there is no successful football team, with the exception of Hamburg.
Here, the Handball-team isn't even close to beating hockey in attendance, even though they finished 2nd in the championship and won a European Cup, while the Freezers had another rather dull season.

If something is the only big thing over a span of a few years, it's only natural that it's going to be the top-draw in the city, with lots of local support. Now, it's pretty much impossible to unsettle Handball in cities like Kiel or Flensburg.

i can't remember where and which national team it was, but there was a national team that competed in a regular season, like a regular team... that might be the way to go for germany, since they have so many foreigners per team.
i'm not sure why swiss hockey has so much more supporters per citizens. i live around zürich, and we don't have cold cold winters, or high mountains... but we have 2 teams, a lot of former and present players of the national team hail from around here. i guess it's tradition and that both teams from zürich have been around for ages.

Maybe the question is TV ! In basketball, the first year, the american professionals played in the olympic games, all the world (actualy Europe for sure, the rest ...) had this dream team effect where all basketball schools were full. Kids started playing more basketball (of this generation Switzerland has even the first swiss playing in NBA today).

I observed more locally the same effect with ice hocke, in Geneva, their was no culture of ice hockey ... nothing. Football was king with 3 teams in Liga A. 2 came down to B or further. The only one, remaining was ok at the time, when they created this Geneva Servette ice hockey team ... went from regional 1 to national B and national liga A. When they went from national liga B to national A, people were speaking about hockey ... amazing ! in Geneva ... they made it, played a year with problems to stay in national A, and ranked in the middle the next year ... since childrens play in the street hockey (no ice, not more ice in Geneva than Paris of Francfort !!) with in line rollers, or by walk, with a tennis ball ... Today schools of hockey are full. in Geneva even 2 other clubs were created ... and they are thinking about opening another "ice halle". in christmas in the city, some places are transformed into ice place ... to skate !!! amazing !

I believe that ice hockey is spectacular, once it will be on tv, it will take off. All is just a matter of time. The stream is in favor of it vs soccer, coz soccer is so boring. (i am normal european and played in a team and watch on tv specilly euro ...) Do the experience and watch a hockey game after a football game. Do the inverse another day. you will be impressed how boring soccer is after hockey. All this really talks in favor of hockey ... so Germand ... in some years ... Hockey will be a good sport .

Yet IMHO having to many foreigners is bad, coz your fans do not identify to the team ... Switzerland has a good equilibrium ...3 foreigners (i would go for 4 or 5 with prohibition of more than 2 on the ice but this is personal) and local players blossom
forced to play with good foreigners.

That's the problem, hardly anyone is interested in watching hockey, and unless you have HD-tv, which isn't all that common yet, hockey is a very tough sport to watch for those who aren't hardcore fans.

Soccer is much more television friendly than hockey and that won't change anytime soon.

Hockey already was on television and the ratings were less then stellar, you get more viewers if you show third-tier soccer. Second-tier soccer utterly destroys hockey and everyone knows how well liked the Bundesliga is.
Soccer is far from boring. There are boring matches, but that's true for hockey as well.


There are soma areas where hockey is very popular and multiple others were it has caught on, but it is far from gaining much popularity if you look at the country as a whole.

The only thing which could spike interest in playing hockey, would be a miracle, like a gold medal at the Olympics. Even then hockey isn't going to get much bigger, see Handball and Basketball after their respective titles.

The former communist regime in the Eastern part of the country deserves the main blame for the decline in hockey there. Somewhere in the 1970's the government decided to stop supporting the sport of ice hockey and decided to focus on figure skating instead. After 1970 only two teams played in the Oberliga: Dynamo Weisswasser and Dynamo Berlin.

Hockey only remained strong in the former hotbeds in Weisswasser, Berlin or Crimmitschau.

It actually seems to me Germany is doing very well.

Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Rep, Slovakia have long traditions in the sport and cant be compared. Of the rest, maybe only Switzerland has made more progress, and that's close. They're doing much better than the likes of Italy, Britain, France. Smaller nations like Denmark and Latvia are improving, but generally European hockey needs to have competitive Tier II nations to raise their standards.. its a huge leap to compete with NHL standard countries.

Hockey only remained strong in the former hotbeds in Weisswasser, Berlin or Crimmitschau.

true, but in dresden something good is growing. hockey is doing good there. from what i heard, halle and rostock are doing good as well. it's nothing spectacular, but they build a solid ground and now hockey is able to grow there.

and as for the TV-situation. hockey ratings weren't that bad and what almost killed hockey is pay-TV and the DEL. they don't care about hockey as long as they can make some money fast. it worked for the forst two seasons, but since then hockey is in trouble.
guys like schroeder in frankfurt were starting to destroy hockey and are still doing it.
if they want to survive, they would have to learn that making money only can work if you think about the future and not just the present. and i somehow doubt they're clever enough. :shakehead

Hockey is too tough for Germans.

Joke aside, I think germany could/should be better. As for climate, the Czecks can't have much colder climate than germany, if you can participate in BIATHLON, you can participate in hockey.

As for population - I rest my case.

As for the financial situation - isn't Germany supposed to be one of the wealthiest nation in the world??

I hope and think Germany at least will be a div I regular.

As for missing NHL'ers, thats equal to every team.

Czech Republic is smaller than Germany though ;)
You can pretty much forget at least half of Germany (if not more) when it comes to hockey, because there is simply no ice you could skate on. Just like in France or England, the climate in large parts of the country is influenced by the sea, which makes the winters much too warm.

Wealth doesn't necessarily mean that it's put into hockey ;)
If someone has money and wants to invest in sports, he usually puts it into soccer, than into soccer and if something is left, soccer. Then come the sports where Germany has someone who is really successful. Neither is there a hockey player who is considered a star on a Nowitzki-like level, nor is Germany particularly successful at hockey, investors don't really like that.

Germany still is one of the financially most important countries for the IIHF, but there simply isn't much money used on developing players.

As for the NHL-players missing, I wouldn't say that it's equal. If you compare Germany to Switzerland, Germany loses more players because of the NHL. This is about to change, but in the recent past, most Swiss players stayed in Europe. The Swiss had their two goalies and Mark Streit, that's about it, Germany loses it's top three forwards, top four defensemen and top two goalies.

The comparison doesn't get any better if you compare Germany to the top-countries. Those countries lose more players and quite often even better ones, but they still have a large pool of players available. Losing seven or eight star-players hurts, but it hurts even more if those are all the stars you have.

Czech Republic is smaller than Germany though ;)
You can pretty much forget at least half of Germany (if not more) when it comes to hockey, because there is simply no ice you could skate on. Just like in France or England, the climate in large parts of the country is influenced by the sea, which makes the winters much too warm.

Wealth doesn't necessarily mean that it's put into hockey ;)
If someone has money and wants to invest in sports, he usually puts it into soccer, than into soccer and if something is left, soccer. Then come the sports where Germany has someone who is really successful. Neither is there a hockey player who is considered a star on a Nowitzki-like level, nor is Germany particularly successful at hockey, investors don't really like that.

Germany still is one of the financially most important countries for the IIHF, but there simply isn't much money used on developing players.

As for the NHL-players missing, I wouldn't say that it's equal. If you compare Germany to Switzerland, Germany loses more players because of the NHL. This is about to change, but in the recent past, most Swiss players stayed in Europe. The Swiss had their two goalies and Mark Streit, that's about it, Germany loses it's top three forwards, top four defensemen and top two goalies.

The comparison doesn't get any better if you compare Germany to the top-countries. Those countries lose more players and quite often even better ones, but they still have a large pool of players available. Losing seven or eight star-players hurts, but it hurts even more if those are all the stars you have.


I understand what you're saying and of course you're not completely of base, in particular that part that you have to be successful to get attention from investors/media etc. I just hope for some more competition in the hockey world, and Germany and the Swiss along with some eastern european, COULD get there without THAT much effort.

And I cannot understand why people cant be a fan of several sports, I mean I like fotball (soccer), but that doesnt make me any less of a hockey fan.

Ice Hockey is a great game, it got so much more intensity than most other team sports. And it IS a indoor game, you don't have to have an artic climat to play hockey (think of Phoenix...), and besides southern Scandinavia actually isn't THAT much colder than Germany, take a look at a map you'll find that Scandinavia and Germany is actually pretty close.

There is a difference between being a fan and actually playing it. Most people play football, few play hockey, those who like both usually take what is cheaper and easier to cope with. Football clubs are around every corner, but there are maybe one or two hockey teams in some cities, that's way too much travelling for most parents.

Yeah, they do play hockey in areas where it isn't all that cold, but tell me, how many players do you know who come from Phoenix?
Just because teams are playing in such a city doesn't mean that there are all that many local players there, nor that many talents can be found.

Maybe the southwest of Sweden, but that's a significantly smaller part of the country than the similar areas in Germany. Take population into account and you end up with a relatively small number of people who actually live in an area which really supports hockey. None of the bigger cities has the climate for outdoor hockey, nor do they have enough rinks to support multiple indoor hockey teams. There is a reason why Germany doesn't have half as many hockey-players as Sweden and Finland.

There is a difference between being a fan and actually playing it. Most people play football, few play hockey, those who like both usually take what is cheaper and easier to cope with. Football clubs are around every corner, but there are maybe one or two hockey teams in some cities, that's way too much travelling for most parents.

Yeah, they do play hockey in areas where it isn't all that cold, but tell me, how many players do you know who come from Phoenix?
Just because teams are playing in such a city doesn't mean that there are all that many local players there, nor that many talents can be found.

Maybe the southwest of Sweden, but that's a significantly smaller part of the country than the similar areas in Germany. Take population into account and you end up with a relatively small number of people who actually live in an area which really supports hockey. None of the bigger cities has the climate for outdoor hockey, nor do they have enough rinks to support multiple indoor hockey teams. There is a reason why Germany doesn't have half as many hockey-players as Sweden and Finland.

Well you know the colder parts of Sweden ins't exactly crowded with people, most people up there lives by the "bothniabay" coastline (were many great Swedish skaters is brought up, so climate does have an effect I admitt). And the winters in the middle parts of Sweden is very unrealiable, one winter day okay it's cold enough to hold an ice, the other day its TOO cold to be outside and the next day it's like + 4-5 C and the ice gets soggy.

How about the german alps, isnt it cold enough to hold an natural ice there? Maybe it's to few who live there?

And a rich country like yours should be able to build rinks with artifical freezed ice, the size measures doesnt always need to be olympic. A rink with artifical ice outdoors should still be in pretty cold places but it doesnt have to be under 0 C all the time.

The number of German kids, who grow up in low level income households is increasing in alarming numbers. IMO, that's even bigger problem, giving the much higher costs to buy hockey equipment compared to soccer equipment. I paid 125 Euro for my skates and need to pay a fee to be able to get on the ice. You can play soccer practically everywhere, on the street, on a field, in a park or on the beach, for free. Plus, you don't need specialized equipment. A pair of cheap shoes and a cheap ball can be had for 25 Euro combined.

EDIT: Just saw that.

@Sanderson: Happy Birthday. ;)

There are some areas where it's cold enough, that's where most German players are coming from ;)

There is artificial ice in almost every German city, but it's not enough to support hockey on a larger scale.
I'll take my hometown as an example. Hamburg is the second largest city of the country. Right now there are four artificial ice rinks, plus another one in progress.

One is the arena, which can't be used for anything but the DEL-homegames and the odd international game. The one in progress is the new practice compount, which should be ready in about a year, but it is pretty far from the cities core.
Then there are two smaller arenas which are used for hockey, but also public skating, which reduces the icetime for hockey-teams drastically. Both aren't easily accessible either. They are having trouble getting icetime for the men's teams of the two smaller clubs, much less getting some for the kids.

The last one is the biggest and the one which doesn't take an eternity to travel to, but it has no roof and is only for public skating, speed skating and figure skating.

All places aren't funded by big companies and need all the money they can get. The easist way to make money is public skating. Hockey teams would need to spend a lot of money to get good icetime. This wastes pretty much 3 million potential players who live in or around the city.


Thanks :)
I can feel my age already ;)

Pretty good description of the current situation by Sanderson here.

Metro Hannover (population: 1.130.000) has three ice rinks, one of them is the Arena and obviously only rarely used for training.

The other two rinks are also used for public skating, sledge-hockey, ice dancers and curling etc which means that even the very young have to train at impossible times.

And keep in mind that Hannover is a city where hockey IS relatively big.

Right now one new rink is build in the region by former Hannover Scorpions player Lenny Soccio which will be a great relief for everyone here. It was a hard fight to come up witht he money for the rink and right now it's still a gamble if it will pay off.

Also there's another rink in Celle just 40Km north of Hannover where the kids often go to train but altogether the situation is pretty dire.

About two years ago there was talk about building a huge hockey center here in Hannover which would have hold at least 6 rinks under one roof but in the end as most of the time money was the problem.

Best area for hockey in Germany is Bavaria where sometimes every little village has its own rink.

what's with the rink in mellendorf? no longer excistent or still used?

in kassel we have one rink. there are plans to build an arena with at least one rink for practising, but i don't see this arena coming. money, money, money...

Yeah a city over 1 million inhabitants in Sweden would have a large number of artificial ice rinks.

Problem is we just have; 1 city over 1 million people (Stockholm), 2 citys over 0,5 million (Sthlm, Göteborg) and 3 citys (Sthlm, Gtb and Malmö) over 0,25 million.

Then again, yeah at least in the north there is of course a lot of good natural ice during the winter (in the middle parts at least from time to time).

Anyhow, come on! Tell your ********* politicans to start building rinks. ;)

This should be a EU project! Sweden is already forced to pay WAY too much support to eastern and southern europe and thier unprofitable agriculture industry and whatnot. Some of our tax money should instead go to develop German hockey. Then at least it would be for a good cause. :D

what's with the rink in mellendorf? no longer excistent or still used?

Still used. It's one of three rinks I meantioned.
1) Tui Arena
2) Pferdeturm
3) Icehouse Mellendorf
4) Len Soccio Ice Center in Langenhagen (between the Wedemark and Hannover), finished in 2008
http://www.ti2-media.de/kunden/planervilla/aktuell.pdf

The Icehouse in Mellendorf is actually faster to reach with public transport than the Arena from Hannover's city center.

Just read that the new rink in Langenhagen will also be used for Handball?!
Hope they don't take away too much time slots the hockey teams in Hannover could really use.

Just curious.
I would have thought it was the kind of sport that would do well in Germany.
I remember them playing well against the smaller European nations for decades, but they never seem to make the step into a true contender for the championship.
I've been told that Fotboll is the national sport, but still in a country with so many people there should be market for others. I've also been told that German hockey import many foreign over the hill players, stiffling developement, but if that's the reason why don't put a limit on it?
I mean, if the tiny Czech Republic can put up both a hockey and fotball team that challenge for championships, why doesn't Germany?


I've been wondering this while living in Germany. There really hasn't been a culture of hockey developed yet. Sure the govt can pump money into the system and that will be required at some stage (no, private money will only create an elite game that few participate). But for now what is needed is one bona fide star. Think Becker and Graf in tennis. They were the influence for almost every single player thereafter, even still.

So Germany needs it's own Jagr, Gretzky, Ovechkin, Crosby, Datsyuk, Zetterburg who plays on the biggest stage (NHL) and has the greatest influence. Now comes the chicken-egg question is how do you produce these players? Partly luck I guess but also injecting more money into the junior and senior levels, but really mostly at the minor hoceky levels to increase the chances of getting that elite star player. I think that once you have him, then people will demand the govt's involvement in the game. I recall in the heydays of Becker and Graf tennis in Canada, the government subsidized a lot of tennis programs at the community level. Thsi was going on at the same time as they were supporting ice hockey in the same way.

Sure winter has something to so with it (outdoor rinks and all) but it's more of a committment than anything. I saw South Korean ice hockey teams visiting and practicing in Canada and they were pretty good. If as someone else pointed out, ski jumping, biathalon, etc can be big, then why not hockey? At the base of all this is the minor level game (kids: 8-14 especially) and who will support it so that the next German-Crosby can emerge and lead the country in better developing the game.

Has there been any basketball boom since Nowitzki entered the NBA?

Maybe a slight upswing for the league, but definately not a real boom.

The ratings for the international tournaments are much better than for hockey though, and most people know Nowitzki, hardly anyone would know the best German hockey players. Though most people don't know the next best basketball player after Nowitzki either ;)

Maybe a slight upswing for the league, but definately not a real boom.

The ratings for the international tournaments are much better than for hockey though, and most people know Nowitzki, hardly anyone would know the best German hockey players. Though most people don't know the next best basketball player after Nowitzki either ;)

I guess it depends on the time lag between a star's glory days and the resulting boom in participation. I'm not a super big NBA fan sorry but is Nowitzki a top 5 star? What I was getting at was it has to be a Becker winning wimbelden or Graf winning, well everything, for the effect to take place. For example, Tommy Haas was what? 7th in the world?- I'm not sure that's enough to start the next tennis revolution.

Here's the question: is there a young German rising star on the ice hockey horizon?

One more thing - I watched a Swedish Elite league game last night and was very impressed by not only the skill level but also the physical nature of the game. It's that intensity that's missing in the DEL which could bring its popularity up. To be honest the potentially violent nature of the game is part of the attraction to a lot of fans - maybe here in Germany too?

How I see it - Fussball has no really seething violence (= intensity) on the field - it ends up taking place in the stands whereas the rough stuff and yes, even violence takes place on the ice. So Hockey has a niche in Germany - it just needs to fill it better. I learned that Swedish hockey is like that and of course people know how the Finns play that great combination of NA/European style.

I'm not a super big NBA fan sorry but is Nowitzki a top 5 star?

Nowitzki was MVP last season... ;)

Nowitzki was MVP last season... ;)

Okay so that's that for my theory (unless of course there's some lag time for bball to take off after Nowitzki's success).

People have to start pushing governments to fund more hockey programs with public money - especially once the economy picks up. The one poster was right about the cost of playing and the increase in the number of kids who can't afford to even buy skates, let alone equipment and rink time. But is this really something that the German government will fund? Don't think this problem isn't happening in Canada too - lots of kids and parents aren't willing to pay the big money to play and the travel time and early morning weekend practices - it really is becoming an elite game. Guess what the big sport is now? Soccer - outdoor and indoor. In terms of player participation it's number 1.

The national team should remain in the top division now. There was a lot of coaching turmoil after switching from the successful (made the WHC quarterfinals several times in a row) but outdated and butt-ugly grinding style of Hans Zach to the inexperienced and less respected Greg Poss. With Uwe Krupp now there's a guy that demands respect and can motivate the troops. Also, the many young players brought to the national team in the past years are now growing into their roles.

The new problem however is that we now lose our best players to the NHL. For the last tournament we missed basically the whole 1st block (Sturm, Hecht, Goc, Ehrhoff, Schubert). And this will only get worse.


It might get worse but as long as there is another World Cup or Olympic tournament there's always going to be a chance to assemble a full team (while the NHL is on a break).

What might Team Germany look like at 2010 Vancouver? or at a 2012 World Cup?

on a sidenote

The Biathlon World Championships is coming up in early february and my hometown Östersund is the place to go if u want to see it

the thing is that here it's not that big, of course a lot of people watch tv and the swedes have had a lot of success last couple of years (forsberg, olofsson) but it's not like people will take time off work to watch it like we did when Stenmark was dominating the alpine circus

but the rumour and everyone knows that the germans will come here with a loooot of supporters, they even have trains going from Berlin to Östersund just for the WC..it's going to be a big oktoberfest every night :handclap:

willkommen !

One more thing - I watched a Swedish Elite league game last night and was very impressed by not only the skill level but also the physical nature of the game. It's that intensity that's missing in the DEL which could bring its popularity up. To be honest the potentially violent nature of the game is part of the attraction to a lot of fans - maybe here in Germany too?

How I see it - Fussball has no really seething violence (= intensity) on the field - it ends up taking place in the stands whereas the rough stuff and yes, even violence takes place on the ice. So Hockey has a niche in Germany - it just needs to fill it better. I learned that Swedish hockey is like that and of course people know how the Finns play that great combination of NA/European style.


I so agree with on this.
I fell in love with hockey not only because the beauty and speed of the game but also because of the intensity and aggressiveness.

Hannover - Berlin two weeks ago was my first game of the season.
The way the game is played these days was a huge reason me and my family didn't feel the urge to attend games anymore.
There is no tension any more. Players don't even react when the goalie is attacked.
I counted 3 hits in the game against Berlin. The fans got so used to the flood of penalties that they want to see penalties after beautiful hits.
Looker called 16 penalties in a totally flat non-agressive game.

The game certainly didn't want me go to visit more games this season.

It's not that I want goons or brutality but I want bone-crushing hits, I want players and teams to get mad at each other and at least get in a shoving match for god's sake.
The game against Straubing last weekend (I got free tickets) was just as life-less. At least the ref let them play.

Has there been any basketball boom since Nowitzki entered the NBA?

My cousins in Germany talk about this subject and the hockey issue with me quite often when I'm there.

To them, Basketball is very interesting and they track NBA teams some. However, when they started getting into Basketball was with Michael Jordan, the Chicago Bulls and then the Dream Team. They like Nowitzki and they casually follow the Bulls still, but they don't get into it like they used too. Jordan was a world star for the most part and they marketed the heck out of him. As soon as some of them saw the first Jordan Bulls Title, 3 of my cousins (who are a tad older than me) signed up to play in local basketball leagues. Basketball also took off in parks and everything. They had already known how to play it some, but they played more. It also has something to do for them with "American style". Hip hop, which many of my cousins and their friends love (and particularly they like the real American Hip Hop) talks about Basketball and wear clothes and jerseys associated with the sport. Plus, they all love getting new Air Jordans or other basketball shoes. So, I think some of the Basketball is culture and the situation that was Jordan.

Now, as far as hockey, most realize it occurs. I have a relative in Koln and the rest outside Stuttgart. Most have learned to ice skate and do so in the winter months. However, most have never even really watched a hockey game more than attending one because I wanted to go to a Koln game. It just isn't on the consciousness. They couldn't tell you any hockey players other than Kolzig, Goc and one or two others. When pressed, they probably could give me the Great One or Super Mario. One or two at a bar have Russian friends and they know about Ovechkin (recognized a shirt I wore).

Though, football... almost everyone knows something about it. It just is all over the place. They can tell you about everything and anything. My cousins don't particularly watch it, but they could still tell me pretty much the whole VfB Stuttgart lineup without even having to take a bit of time. I've stayed with them for weeks, and only when I wanted to watch the game would they do so. Beyond that, they'd pretty much watch soaps or some other silly German game shows. They aren't typical I'm sure, but somehow the culture is partially driven by the sport.

How do they get away from that? well, I think it involves the NHL game growing into the "American Culture" for one just as much as it does with getting lucky and getting a German star. If American youths pick up the game and start loving it, young Europeans in the past would probably start picking it up as well. Nowadays with the change in the connected society of the world, I don't know if that is the case.

Just out of curiosty, how many of you have rec leagues for those who want to play and do any boardies play hockey?

I don't think that Football is the main problem. The DEL is the problem.
In the 90s we had in Munich EC Hedos. The club was not only successful, but had a lot fans, most of the time the arena was sold out. The club went bankrupt 1995.
Immediately after that, the ESC Muenchen was formed and it had an unbelievable cult following. Even in the 4th League they had a crowd of around 3000 people for every home game.
And you must consider, that around that time we had 3 football teams in the 1. Bundesliga (1860, Bayern, Unterhaching) but that didn't affect the ESC much. The club was successful, as they scored around 6-16 goals in most of their games, they crushed every oponnent, i guess that was, what most of the visitores liked. Then came the Anschutz Group, they closed down the club und created the Barons. A huge marketing campaign followed ("Hockey is back"), but no one was interested, they played in the DEL in front of around 2000 people, even after they became champions.

I think that is one of the problems: Clubs without much of a history play in the DEL, with a lot of foreign players no one knows and no one cares. The ESC or even now the EHC are so successful because they let a lot of players from munich or bavaria play in their team.

I agree that success brings attention. Attention will bring more players. More players will bring better players and so on.

Do you feel that success has to be on the national level or could the success of a club team say Eisbaren Berlin in the new champions league help raise the profile of hockey in Germany.

Heres my 2 cents about the DEL league from what Ive seen.

Im from Buffalo, NY so I get top level NHL talent when I goto see games downtown. I also am only a short drive from top Canadian junior hockey jsut over the border.

Ive seen 2 international games. Saw a playoff Swiss league game where the talent level was very mediocre at best in my opinion. Lots of unpolished players. But I was amazed at the buzz around the game there. Alot of TV coverage of the playoffs at a bar my friend and I went to. So Swiss seems to have the culture for the sport but no the talent.

Then we watched Frankfurt at Iglostadt (maybe just me but the ERC arena didnt seem Olympic size?). I will be honest, it was a very fun game to watch. There was plenty of flow, good passing, good chances, decent hits, not many. So I left with the impression that the DEL league was far and away better than the Swiss league and better than some of the AHL games Ive seen. So if the DEL was anything like that game I saw, its surely moving up the world hockey ladder as far as talent goes.

I wear the Bellisimo ERC jersey I bought there as a souviner when I play back in Buffalo. I get asked if its a Russian jersey all the time. I happily say its German :)

You can not judge based on two games you saw.

I'd say Switzerland has the more skilled league since it's not so phisical. The DEL is the exact opposit...

That's my oppinion and I saw way more DEL and Swiss National League Games than just one...

But I think both countries have the same problem, that is called Soccer. Germany is a soccer nation and so is Switzerland. Although we have more succes in Hockey than we have in Soccer, but that's probably of the different system FIFA/UEFA and IIHF have...

In Switzerland Hockey is getting more popular every year, but it gets also more expensiv every year which is also a slow down.... Don't know how it is in Germany, but I asume it's about the same!?

You can not judge based on two games you saw.

I'd say Switzerland has the more skilled league since it's not so phisical. The DEL is the exact opposit...

That's my oppinion and I saw way more DEL and Swiss National League Games than just one...

But I think both countries have the same problem, that is called Soccer. Germany is a soccer nation and so is Switzerland. Although we have more succes in Hockey than we have in Soccer, but that's probably of the different system FIFA/UEFA and IIHF have...

In Switzerland Hockey is getting more popular every year, but it gets also more expensiv every year which is also a slow down.... Don't know how it is in Germany, but I asume it's about the same!?

Ill take your word for it as you live in Zurich, and I havent seen much but I find it hard to believe the overall flow and skill of Swiss hockey is anywhere as good as DEL. People generally tell me that DEL is also better and Swiss is poor. So I try to put together 2 and 2.

I saw ZSC play Kloten in the playoffs this year and the players have no shots. They skate well but showed no moves or shot, especially wristers.

When I saw the DEL league regular season, I saw lots of good flow, nice shots, and a general feel for having saw better players.

But like you said, I only saw just 1-2 games, but if anything Id assume the DEL is a bit better. Maybe someone else can chime in.

Getting back to Swiss hockey I still am very impressed at the TV coverage I saw in a bar after that Barnsley/Chelsea upset finished.

And the attendence for hockey in Switzlerand seems very healthy, especially Bern which we couldnt get a ticket to that next night.

Either way the grwoth of the game cant be overlooked in general.

Well what you have to take into account when you compare the DEL and the Swiss league is the factor soccer and the geographic positioning!

Of course soccer outdoes hockey in both nations but Switzerland is just way more suitable for hockey than Germany is. The overall condition is better. It is no wonder most German hockey teams are located in the south - closer to Switzerland. When I say that don't take me wrong with the DEL. The DEL has teams all over Germany, not necessarily in the south. But that is due to a completely different factor! MONEY! The DEL is pretty heavy when it comes down to the financial aspect. Other teams in Germany who might be able to join the league due to their great athletic performances just can not do it cause they can not lift the heavy financial burdens of the DEL.

The same principal is happening in Switzerland. Teams deny joining the higher league due to the financial expectations. This is sad and goes in my point of view against the sportsmanship!

Well, to which league is better. I see them about even. Both put a lot of money into it and each year the team exchange players on an even level and when they do play (Spengler Cup) it usually is quite close.

Where I might see a little advantage for the DEL is that it is more corrupt with our nice Mr. Tripcke at the top. Therefore he will always find methods to lure incredibly good players, coaches and so on to the league and try to push the level even higher, ruining all of Germany's future perspectives by giving youngsters basically no high level playing ground.

Oh boy,
sorry when this sounded a little anti DEL, but it is :D The league sucks in itself as all the teams are too caught up with themselves instead of caring about anything else of a national hockey situation. But what am I saying..of course there are some exceptions but those are very few.

I realize this forum is for ice hockey talk but if you want to grow the game you have to introduce youth to the sport.

Ice Hockey is expensive but street hockey is not.
Grab a stick $15 -20 bucks, 3 tennis balls $1.00, rocks for nets and 10 kids and have a street hockey game, introducing them to the game is cheap, once they enjoy playing the game, kids will want to try ice hockey. Street/ball hockey is king in Canada.

Well what you have to take into account when you compare the DEL and the Swiss league is the factor soccer and the geographic positioning!

Of course soccer outdoes hockey in both nations but Switzerland is just way more suitable for hockey than Germany is. The overall condition is better. It is no wonder most German hockey teams are located in the south - closer to Switzerland. When I say that don't take me wrong with the DEL. The DEL has teams all over Germany, not necessarily in the south. But that is due to a completely different factor! MONEY! The DEL is pretty heavy when it comes down to the financial aspect. Other teams in Germany who might be able to join the league due to their great athletic performances just can not do it cause they can not lift the heavy financial burdens of the DEL.

The same principal is happening in Switzerland. Teams deny joining the higher league due to the financial expectations. This is sad and goes in my point of view against the sportsmanship!

Well, to which league is better. I see them about even. Both put a lot of money into it and each year the team exchange players on an even level and when they do play (Spengler Cup) it usually is quite close.

Where I might see a little advantage for the DEL is that it is more corrupt with our nice Mr. Tripcke at the top. Therefore he will always find methods to lure incredibly good players, coaches and so on to the league and try to push the level even higher, ruining all of Germany's future perspectives by giving youngsters basically no high level playing ground.

Oh boy,
sorry when this sounded a little anti DEL, but it is :D The league sucks in itself as all the teams are too caught up with themselves instead of caring about anything else of a national hockey situation. But what am I saying..of course there are some exceptions but those are very few.

A good comparison regarding the Germany vs Switzerland debate would be USA vs Sweden (at a lower level of course). While Germany is comparable to the US (hockey in the shadow of other sports apart from some areas with a hockey tradition, but the country is still competitive because it is populated and rich enough to have an important hockey playing population), Switzerland is more like Sweden (smaller country but hockey more popular all over the place compared to other sports ).

Now regarding the NLA vs DEL issue. So far, the number of import players allowed in the DEL pretty much worked against the league. While it allows DEL teams to field impressive fourth lines, having team salaries spread over that many players instead of a few top players and some cheap local guys opened the door to many average AHLers. In the same time, the four imports limit in the Swiss league allowed NLA teams to field some top European leagues guys, while the Swiss playing on the second and third lines were not worse than many DEL imports. Overall, I'll say that top line talent is what put the NLA ahead of the DEL.

That being said, lately, some new factors (emphasis on skill in the NHL, financial power of the Russian league, new TV contract in Sweden allowing SEL teams to retain the best local players) have made it harder for NLA teams to attract top imports, and it wouldn't surprise me to see both league on par in the near future, if that's not already the case, though I would need to watch more DEL games to have a more precise opinion.

I realize this forum is for ice hockey talk but if you want to grow the game you have to introduce youth to the sport.

Ice Hockey is expensive but street hockey is not.
Grab a stick $15 -20 bucks, 3 tennis balls $1.00, rocks for nets and 10 kids and have a street hockey game, introducing them to the game is cheap, once they enjoy playing the game, kids will want to try ice hockey. Street/ball hockey is king in Canada.

I'll take this a bit further..... as much as Germany can't seem to remove itself from spots 8-14 in ice hockey, it is a pretty strong country in inline hockey. Whether with the puck or with the orange ball, Germany has some well-established leagues and their teams tend to do quite well at international tournaments.

In the league here that uses a ball, all you have to do is watch a couple of the 4 or 5 best teams in Germany play against each other to see that this is a sport that can't simply be dominated by ice hockey players. It's a game of it's own and the skills necessary for it are quite different.

As someone who's been playing various forms of roller hockey since the 80ies, I've been SHOCKED at the development of the game here in Germany in this decade alone.

A good comparison regarding the Germany vs Switzerland debate would be USA vs Sweden (at a lower level of course). While Germany is comparable to the US (hockey in the shadow of other sports apart from some areas with a hockey tradition, but the country is still competitive because it is populated and rich enough to have an important hockey playing population), Switzerland is more like Sweden (smaller country but hockey more popular all over the place compared to other sports ).

Now regarding the NLA vs DEL issue. So far, the number of import players allowed in the DEL pretty much worked against the league. While it allows DEL teams to field impressive fourth lines, having team salaries spread over that many players instead of a few top players and some cheap local guys opened the door to many average AHLers. In the same time, the four imports limit in the Swiss league allowed NLA teams to field some top European leagues guys, while the Swiss playing in the second and third lines were not worse than many DEL imports. Overall, I'll say that top line talent is what put the NLA ahead of the DEL.

That being said, lately, some new factors (emphasis on skill in the NHL, financial power of the Russian league, new TV contract in Sweden allowing SEL teams to retains the best local players) have made it harder for NLA teams to attract top imports, and it wouldn't surprise me to see both league on par in the near future, if that's not already the case, though I would need to watch more DEL games to have a more precise opinion.

Good take on this!

When it comes to the foreigners in the DEL, one thing the league hasn't really been able to do very consistently is find the types of players who really bring fans out of their seats.

To a degree, a guy like Pat Lebeau was able to do this, but as good as some foreigners have been (see i.e. Sarno, Walker, Regehr), fans here simply appreciate what Germans like Goc, Hock, Wolf have to offer.

At the end of the day, Germany is still hoping to have a first league where the teams will only be able to license 6 or 7 foreigners. It won't be easy and will of course serve to have especially the Oberliga (the 3rd league) really facing existential questionmarks.

Then again, there's NO DOUBT that the countries where foreigners are limited definitely have a better pool of players to choose from for their international squads.

And believe it or not, this whole question of foreign players has wormed its way in the soccer scene here too, where 1. Bundesliga teams currently consist of pretty much as many foreigners as actual Germans - something once unheard of.