time to rebuild?

i read a woodgundy posting on another board saying that most people on this board dont think rebuilding is in order. i for one think you could pretty much scrap this whole team and be better off. id keep staal, cole, markov, and hedican, and the rest can go. Does anyone else out there hold any true hope for this team in present form? Even if they could make the playoffs (doubtful), is it worth waiting any longer? Do you think they're waiting for the lockout?i dont think the coaching will change much. im just curious where everyone else stands on this.

id keep staal, cole, markov, and hedican

You'd want to dump Vrbata, Vasicek, Weekes, etc? :dunno:

You'd want to dump Vrbata, Vasicek, Weekes, etc? :dunno:

I'm with Bleedgreen in that a complete overhaul is necessary, but I wouldn't be likely to move the likes of Vrbata, Vasicek or Weekes.

Carolina currently sits tied for 12th, with much more talented teams in Tampa and NY in the way of a play-off berth. If this squad manages to scrape it's way into the 7th or 8th spot, we'll get to watch 5 or 6 more games and that's it.

The players will be locked out for at least one season, so where are we in two years? Our old defense will be even older and half of the character on a team with little will have retired.

I've suffered with mediocre to bad teams my whole life as a fan of this franchise. Now that I've had a taste of a little glory, I want more and the current roster can't give it to me.

If you take away one appearance in the league finals, what do you have? Arguably one of the least successful franchises in all of sports, with only one play-off series victory to its credit.

And when you really look at the championship run of a couple years ago, it never should have happened. Giving the winner of the SE the 3rd seed automatically is embarassing and as the rightful 7th seed, I believe the 'Canes roll over to the Flyers.

We had home ice against NJ and Toronto that we didn't deserve and both teams took us lightly. The series win over Montreal feels convincing, but some bad coaching and an inexperienced team cost the Habs a Game 4 that would have sealed the deal had it gone the other way.

Don't get me wrong, it was a great run and living where I do, wins over Montreal and Toronto couldn't come against two better teams. I just believe anyone who thinks, "This isn't that different of a team than the one who went to the finals" is kidding themselves.

I'm not sure the current squad is under-acheiving. Our record against non-playoff teams suggests we are right where we belong.

I really don't think rebuilding in the current environment is going to be easy ... and thus I'm willing to give the boys a bit longer rope than I otherwise would. With uncertainty about next season, there will be a LOT of teams trying to take advantage of the short-sighted and greedy as the deadline draws near. Better not to join that pack unless the team is just totally out of it.

We'll know more by the end of January ... a home heavy schedule might just give Laviolette a chance to turn around the offense enough to get the Canes back in the playoff hunt. It's not like the four or five teams ahead of them right now are any freaking good ... it's all a buncha dreck if you ask me. Maybe a new attitiude, a bit of confidence and maybe a move for a left winger might actually yeild results.

i grew up in hartford and agree with woodgundy about suffering with this franchise. they're always nearly good enough, but never quite there. i think tampa bay,atlanta, even florida have accepted where they were, sucked it up, and rebuilt properly. i think carolina thinks it needs to make the playoffs every year to maintain interest in the triangle. they're afraid of how long it would take to rebuild, but they dont understand its fun to watch a young promising team grow - even if they lose at first. ottawa is a perfect example of how to build from nothing, it just took patience through a number of bad seasons. carolina goes through mediocre to bad seasons, never taking the big step forward OR backwards, leaving them permanently stuck hoping to barely make the playoffs. they did the same thing in hartford-trading pronger for shanny hoping to get more butts in the seats, where does that leave them now? i love having markov, but tanabe and knyazev for markov shows that they havent learned anything from previous disasters.
for the record, i like vrbata and vasicek, i just think they're smaller pieces to the puzzle and if they can somehow be used to acquire a bigger piece-so be it. ive never thought weekes was a franchise goalie, despite his great play. it seems hes always a great goalie on bad teams. would he be a great goalie for a great team? how many teams would start him over their present starters? i dont think many would. sorry, im getting lengthy here- i just needed to talk about this a little. i still watch them play and always will. i think at this point rutherford has had more than a fair chance to move the team forward. it hasnt worked. id like to see him go before an overhaul-i dont trust him to do it right.

i agree with jeffbear that things could turn around a bit in the next month or so, i guess i just dont think that would be enough over the long term. nice to see hill climbed out from under that rock last night.

I don't think a complete overhaul is necessary. I think the problem with this team is commitment to aging players. Hill is starting to show the rust, and Wesley hasn't been the same player (moving the puck-wise) for years. Francis shouldn't have been put in a spot to be counted on to carry a team because of last season alone. Maybe we probably should have went with some youngsters this year and took our lumps, but I'm not counting this team out yet. The way they played hard in some games during the losing streak in October-November showed me that this team could still do some damage if they start scoring at least 2.5 goals a game. That seems to be their problem.

Just for the heck of it, would this be a decent offer for Jeff O'Neill if Carolina did decide to do an overhaul?


To Vancouver

Jeff O'Neill
Sean Hill

To Carolina

Jason King
Brent Sopel
R.J. Umberger

Canucks get a legitamate secondary scorer who also plays a gritty, hardnosed game. They also get a veteran d-man who is solid defensively, physical, and can play the point on the PP. He can fill in admirably for Sopel for the rest of th season and playoffs. Hill will be a UFA at season's end.

The Canes get a young, potential goal scorer in Jason King, who could develop into a Jeff O'Neill type player. I wouldn't want to see King go, but if the Canucks could get a player like O'Neill, I'd move Jason. The Canes also get a d-man who can QB their PP. The Canes defense is rather old and have 3 regulars who will become UFA's at the end of the year(Wesley, Boughner, Hill). Getting a guy like Sopel, 27 years old, signed long term to relatively cheap contract, can play in their top 4 would be a solid move for the Canes. They also get a good offensive prospect in Umberger, something they sorely lack.

I don't think a complete overhaul is necessary. I think the problem with this team is commitment to aging players. Hill is starting to show the rust, and Wesley hasn't been the same player (moving the puck-wise) for years. Francis shouldn't have been put in a spot to be counted on to carry a team because of last season alone. Maybe we probably should have went with some youngsters this year and took our lumps, but I'm not counting this team out yet. The way they played hard in some games during the losing streak in October-November showed me that this team could still do some damage if they start scoring at least 2.5 goals a game. That seems to be their problem.
i agree with you, the team is too old, and when i say overhaul i mean mostly to move the older guard out (hill,wesley,francis, brindamour?, ward?) and move a future in. unfortunately, to move some of these players and get back a decent return, some other players (vasicek etc.) would maybe get moved too. i think that some of these older players werent moved when they should have been and now we may be stuck with them. thats something the gm is responsible for-making tough decisions. i think your right about riding it out, i dont see a chance of rutherford rebuilding now with your aforementioned over-committment to older players.
as for that trade offer, i kinda like it. hill for sopel is solid. i think sopel is actually a similar player to hill, just younger and more mobile. i dont think hes that great a pp qb though(neither is hill, for my opinion).

king and rumberger isnt that bad for oneill. id be worried that king might not really be the player weve seen to this point, and other than hearing that hes had an outstanding college career-i dont know that rumberger is that great a prospect. how far off is he? are either of them going to replace oneill? i dont think 2 third liners replace 1 first liner. i could be wrong about both of them, and this is potentially the kind of trade im talking about if the canes were to rebuild. i think that rutherford is going to stand pat if they're within 6-8 pts of the last playoff spot-and if so this trade or any like it wont happen. if they were to rebuild, i think this is a good offer. i dont think vancouver would want oneill's salary, though.
not sure on a counter, i wouldnt want a sedin at this point-and i cant imagine anyone else on the roster being offered. i think oneill IS the prime trade bait for the canes this year (much like kapanen last year). i think hell play well under lavi and hopefully salvage his season. i hope they dont trade him just for the sake of making a change, and hes the only one anybody wants.

my concern is im not convinced that king is really the player weve seen to this point

Good call; he's not. King played his junior hockey here and I never thought he'd make it to the NHL, let alone get off to a fast start. Jeff O'Neill, he never will be.

im not sure what fair return for oneill would be at this point. when you deal from a position of weakness (canes), you rarely get the better end of the deal. thats the problem with overhauling.

as for that trade offer, i kinda like it. hill for sopel is solid. i think sopel is actually a similar player to hill, just younger and more mobile. i dont think hes that great a pp qb though(neither is hill, for my opinion).

IMO, Sopel is a lot like a young Adrian Aucoin. Both have a hard, accurate shot from the point, solid positionally, good size but neither really plays physically.


king and rumberger isnt that bad for oneill. id be worried that king might not really be the player weve seen to this point, and other than hearing that hes had an outstanding college career-i dont know that rumberger is that great a prospect. how far off is he? are either of them going to replace oneill? i dont think 2 third liners replace 1 first liner. i could be wrong about both of them, and this is potentially the kind of trade im talking about if the canes were to rebuild. i think that rutherford is going to stand pat if they're within 6-8 pts of the last playoff spot-and if so this trade or any like it wont happen. if they were to rebuild, i think this is a good offer. i dont think vancouver would want oneill's salary, though.

King is a bit of a question mark. He has the talent to succeed(skating, shot, nose for the net), but over the last 5 games or so, he just hasn't had any luck. He's been getting chances, and so have the Sedins, but the pucks just haven't been going in. Over the frist 20 games or so of this season, King was doing everything he could to score. He was going to the net and taking loads of abuse just to get a scoring chance, that is why I say he could become an O'Neill like player. I don't think he'll ever have the physical prescence that Jeff has, but he'll get his nose dirty and won't shy away from the rough stuff in order to get a goal.

As for Umberger, he would be playing in Manitoba, possibly Vancouver for a short stint, but he isn't signed. He's not asking for an outrageous ammount either, apparantly $950,000 base salary on a two-way deal, a good deal for a former 1st round pick. But Burke doesn't like giving that type of money to unproven players. He paid Ryan Kesler around $750,000-800,000 base salary, and he was a 1st rounder as well. In any case, if another team acquired Umberger and were willing to sign him, they could get it done. A good comparison to Umberger is Anson Carter IMO. Strong, powerful skating stride, hard shot, good size, but not really physical and average defensively at best. He doesn't shy away from physical play, but he rarely dishes it out. IMO, he has the potential to be a solid 2nd line winger. If he's not signed, the team that holds his rights gets a compensatory 2nd round pick, so at worst, he'd be a 2nd round pick in next years draft for Carolina.


not sure on a counter, i wouldnt want a sedin at this point-and i cant imagine anyone else on the roster being offered. i think oneill IS the prime trade bait for the canes this year (much like kapanen last year). i think hell play well under lavi and hopefully salvage his season. i hope they dont trade him just for the sake of making a change, and hes the only one anybody wants.

I doubt any Sedins will be dealt, same goes for Matt Cooke or Bryan Allen. I can see the Canes asking for Cooke or Allen in a deal though...


Anyway, thanks for your input, I appreciate it!

Good call; he's not. King played his junior hockey here and I never thought he'd make it to the NHL, let alone get off to a fast start. Jeff O'Neill, he never will be.

I agree that King won't be a 40 goal scorer in the NHL, but I feel he has the potential to become a 30 goal guy, or at least a 20-30 goal scorer. He's a good skater, has a good shot and a nose for the net. Three attributes that a goal scorer in the NHL usually possesses. On top of that he's not afraid to play in high traffic areas in order to score. I remember one game against the St.Louis Blues in which King was knocked down about 7 or 8 times in front of the net(Osgood knocked him down a couple times! :) ), but he stuck it out and ended up potting a rebound off of a point shot. That to me shows that King knows the type of game he has to play in order to be successful at the NHL level.

King will never be as physical as a guy like O'Neill and may never score as many goals, but like O'Neill, he isn't afraid to pay the price to score.

for what its worth, i think burke is one of the best gm's in the league. his affect on hartford for the short time he was there was so positive. he traded for sean burke, robert kron, and chris pronger in one year. not one questionable transaction. id love to have him back. i met him that year. i snuck in a bar, got drunk, realised it was him a few seats down. i thanked him for the good work, he smiled, said thanks, and quit one week later. making me personally responsible for the jinxed downfall of this team :cry: . i apologize to the cane/whale nation.

for what its worth, i think burke is one of the best gm's in the league. his affect on hartford for the short time he was there was so positive. he traded for sean burke, robert kron, and chris pronger in one year. not one questionable transaction. id love to have him back. i met him that year. i snuck in a bar, got drunk, realised it was him a few seats down. i thanked him for the good work, he smiled, said thanks, and quit one week later. making me personally responsible for the jinxed downfall of this team :cry: . i apologize to the cane/whale nation.


Good story. :D

FWIW, after watching Vasicek do his hot and cold thing yet again, I'd be all in favor of moving him for a real left wing if it was at all possible. Staal is clearly the future top line center, which was Joe's slot in the organizational depth chart until this summer ... so he's become expendable in my book.

Other than that ... getting a left wing ... I don't think I'd do anything with this roster until a lot closer to the deadline.

i still think he could be a solid 2/3 center if he was more consistent, and he made a pretty good winger, but you're right. i was hoping he would be something they might try to package to get comrie, obviously a pipe dream.