All-Time Draft #8, Part II

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BM67
09-24-2007, 10:03 AM
All-Time Draft, Part I (http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=418111)

The draft will last 24 rounds. You must draft 2 goalies, 6 defensemen, 12 forwards, a coach and 3 extra players.

Trading is allowed. Trades must be equal in numbers, 2 picks for 2 picks, 1 player and a pick for 2 picks, and so on. Really lopsided trades can be vetoed.

The time limit is 9 hours. Dropping by 1 hour for each skipped pick. If you miss 2 picks you become eligible for replacement.

You must PM the next GM after your selection.

GMs with previous skipped picks

seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - 1 skipped pick
LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - 2 skipped picks
vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - 1 skipped pick
Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - 1 skipped pick

GMs with reduced time limits

Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - 8 hours

Any player from any league or era are eligible, but their selection should be based on what they have done, and not what they will do in the future.

Draft Order

Round #1
1 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Bobby Orr
2 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Wayne Gretzky
3 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Gordie Howe
4 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Mario Lemieux
5 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Bobby Hull
6 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Maurice Richard
7 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Eddie Shore
8 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Jean Beliveau
9 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Doug Harvey
10 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Guy Lafleur
11 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Ray Bourque
12 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Mark Messier
13 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Jacques Plante
14 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Denis Potvin
15 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Patrick Roy
16 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Phil Esposito
17 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Mike Bossy
18 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Red Kelly
19 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Nicklas Lidstrom
20 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Stan Mikita
21 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Terry Sawchuk
22 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Dominik Hasek
23 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Howie Morenz
24 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Larry Robinson
25 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Bobby Clarke
26 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Steve Yzerman
27 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Ken Dryden
28 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Jaromir Jagr

Round #2
29 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Martin Brodeur
30 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Ted Lindsay
31 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Glenn Hall
32 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Viacheslav Fetisov
33 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Bryan Trottier
34 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Valery Kharlamov
35 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Scott Stevens
36 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Joe Sakic
37 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Milt Schmidt
38 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Bill Durnan
39 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Brad Park
40 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Al MacInnis
41 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Chris Chelios
42 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Paul Coffey
43 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Turk Broda
44 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Tim Horton
45 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Dit Clapper
46 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Johnny Bower
47 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Pierre Pilote
48 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Bernie Geoffrion
49 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Billy Smith
50 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Bernie Parent
51 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Jari Kurri
52 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Earl Seibert
53 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Charlie Conacher
54 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Bill Cook
55 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Brian Leetch
56 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Chris Pronger

Round #3
57 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Scott Niedermayer
58 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Brett Hull
59 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Sprague Cleghorn
60 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Clint Benedict
61 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Frank Mahovlich
62 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Dickie Moore
63 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Henri Richard
64 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Peter Forsberg
65 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Ted Kennedy
66 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Syl Apps Sr.
67 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Max Bentley
68 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Vladislav Tretiak
69 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Bob Gainey
70 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Newsy Lalonde
71 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Joe Malone
72 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - King Clancy
73 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Borge Salming
74 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Andy Bathgate
75 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Marcel Dionne
76 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Frank Brimsek
77 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Gilbert Perreault
78 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Bill Gadsby
79 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Sergei Fedorov
80 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Fred "Cyclone" Taylor
81 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Grant Fuhr
82 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Rod Langway
83 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Jack "Blackjack" Stewart
84 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Aurel Joliat

Round #4
85 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Serge Savard
86 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Elmer Lach
87 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Peter Stastny
88 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Sergei Makarov
89 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Chuck Gardiner
90 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Jiri Holocek
91 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Guy Lapointe
92 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Butch Bouchard
93 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - George Hainsworth
94 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Nels Stewart
95 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Boris Mikhailov
96 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Ed Belfour
97 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Valeri Vasiliev
98 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Dale Hawerchuk
99 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Lionel “Big Train” Conacher
100 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Brendan Shanahan
101 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Johnny Bucyk
102 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Cam Neely
103 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Hector "Toe" Blake
104 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Jacques Laperriere
105 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Mark Howe
106 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Ron Francis
107 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Bill Quackenbush
108 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Frank Boucher
109 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Marcel Pronovost
110 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Rob Blake
111 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
112 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Tony Esposito

Round #5
113 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Busher Jackson
114 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Eric Lindros
115 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Gerry Cheevers
116 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Yvan Cournoyer
117 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Sid Abel
118 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Dave Keon
119 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Ken Reardon
120 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Ebenezer "Ebbie" Goodfellow
121 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Doug Gilmour
122 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Guy Carbonneau
123 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Doug Bentley
124 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Alex Delvecchio
125 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Vladimir Konstantinov
126 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - George "Buck" Boucher
127 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Tom Johnson
128 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Adam Oates
129 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Darryl Sittler
130 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Lorne "Gump" Worsley
131 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Cy Denneny
132 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Teemu Selanne
133 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Pavel Bure
134 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Walter "Babe" Pratt
135 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Igor Larionov
136 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Larry Murphy
137 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Alexei Kasatonov
138 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Mike Gartner
139 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Norm Ullman
140 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Pat LaFontaine

Round #6
141 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Luc Robitaille
142 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Roy Conacher
143 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Lanny McDonald
144 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Bill Cowley
145 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Mike Modano
146 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Steve Shutt
147 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Carl Brewer
148 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - J.C. Tremblay
149 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Doug Wilson
150 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Frank Nighbor
151 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Anatoli Firsov
152 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Mats Sundin
153 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Fern Flaman
154 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Jean Ratelle
155 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Harry Howell
156 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Leo Boivin
157 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Aleksandr Maltsev
158 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Allan Stanley
159 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Ching Johnson
160 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Vaclav Nedomansky
161 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Harry "Punch" Broadbent
162 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Jere Lehtinen
163 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Sergei Zubov
164 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Art Ross
165 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Jarome Iginla
166 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Bill White
167 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Red Horner
168 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Bert Olmstead

Round #7
169 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Clark Gillies
170 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Sylvio Mantha
171 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Albert "Babe" Siebert
172 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Claude Provost
173 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - David "Sweeney" Schriner
174 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Bill Barber
175 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Marty Pavelich
176 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Brian Propp
177 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Doug "Diesel" Mohns
178 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Vladimir Petrov
179 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Esa Tikkanen
180 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Michel Goulet
181 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Jacques Lemaire
182 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Pat Stapleton
183 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Adam Foote
184 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Alexander Ragulin
185 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Gary Suter
186 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Syd Howe
187 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Joe Primeau
188 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Joe Nieuwendyk
189 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Denis Savard
190 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Rod Brind'Amour
191 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Paul Kariya
192 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Randy Carlyle
193 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Vladimir Krutov
194 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Markus Naslund
195 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Richard Martin
196 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Phil Housley

Round #8
197 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Rod Gilbert
198 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - John Tonelli
199 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Glenn Anderson
200 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Eric Desjardins
201 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Craig Ramsay
202 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Scotty Bowman, coach
203 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Dino Ciccarelli
204 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Eddie Gerard
205 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Woody Dumart
206 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Babe Dye
207 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Nikolai Sologubov
208 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Jimmy Thomson
209 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Harry Cameron
210 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Rick Tocchet
211 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Hooley Smith
212 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Butch Goring
213 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Theoren Fleury
214 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - George "The Chief" Armstrong
215 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Bryan Hextall Sr
216 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Art Coulter
217 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Claude Lemieux
218 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Bob Goldham
219 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Brent Sutter
220 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Vsevolod Bobrov
221 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Hap Day
222 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Ed Westfall
223 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Danny Gare
224 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Dave Andreychuk

Round #9
225 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Kevin Stevens
226 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Jan Suchy
227 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Hod Stuart
228 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Bobby Baun
229 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Tim Kerr
230 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Frantisek Pospisil
231 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Patrik Elias
232 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Joe Hall
233 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Bill Mosienko
234 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Alexander Yakushev
235 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Gus Mortson
236 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Derian Hatcher
237 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Rick Middleton
238 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Doug Jarvis
239 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Irvine "Ace" Bailey
240 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Wayne Cashman
241 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Gary Roberts
242 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels -Pete Mahovlich
243 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Joel Otto
244 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Joe Mullen
245 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Steve Larmer
246 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Don Luce
247 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Herb Gardiner
248 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Ernie "Moose" Johnson
249 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Eddie Giacomin
250 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Brian Sutter
251 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Sidney Crosby
252 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Bobby Smith

Round #10
253 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Terry Harper
254 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Didier Pitre
255 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Elmer 'Moose' Vasko
256 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Mark Recchi
257 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Ken Morrow
258 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Anders Hedberg
259 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Jack Darragh
260 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Flash Hollett
261 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Brad McCrimmon
262 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Wendel Clark
263 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Georges Vezina
264 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Zdeno Chara
265 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Ken Hodge
266 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Bobby Bauer
267 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Ulf Samuelsson
268 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Jean-Guy Talbot
269 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs -
270 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
271 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
272 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
273 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
274 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
275 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
276 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
277 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
278 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
279 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
280 BM67 - New Jersey Devils

Round #11
281 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
282 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
283 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
284 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
285 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
286 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
287 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
288 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
289 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
290 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
291 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
292 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
293 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
294 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
295 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
296 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
297 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
298 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
299 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
300 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
301 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
302 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators -
303 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
304 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
305 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
306 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
307 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
308 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets

Round #12
309 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets
310 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
311 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
312 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
313 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
314 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
315 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
316 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
317 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
318 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
319 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
320 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
321 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
322 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
323 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
324 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
325 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
326 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
327 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
328 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
329 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
330 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
331 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
332 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
333 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
334 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
335 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
336 BM67 - New Jersey Devils

Round #13
337 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
338 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
339 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
340 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
341 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
342 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
343 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
344 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
345 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
346 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
347 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
348 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
349 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
350 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
351 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
352 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
353 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
354 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
355 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
356 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
357 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
358 VanIslander - New York Raiders
359 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
360 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
361 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
362 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
363 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
364 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets

Round #14
365 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets
366 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
367 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
368 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
369 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
370 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
371 VanIslander - New York Raiders
372 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
373 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
374 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
375 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
376 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
377 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
378 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
379 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
380 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
381 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
382 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
383 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
384 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
385 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
386 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
387 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
388 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
389 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
390 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
391 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
392 BM67 - New Jersey Devils

Round #15
393 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
394 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
395 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
396 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
397 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
398 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
399 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
400 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
401 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
402 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
403 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
404 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
405 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
406 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
407 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
408 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
409 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
410 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
411 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
412 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
413 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
414 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
415 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
416 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
417 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
418 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
419 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
420 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets

Round #16
421 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets
422 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
423 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
424 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
425 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
426 VanIslander - New York Raiders
427 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
428 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
429 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
430 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
431 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
432 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
433 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
434 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
435 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
436 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
437 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
438 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
439 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
440 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
441 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
442 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
443 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
444 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
445 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
446 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
447 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
448 VanIslander - New York Raiders

Round #17
449 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
450 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
451 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
452 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
453 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
454 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
455 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
456 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
457 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
458 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
459 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
460 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
461 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
462 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
463 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
464 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
465 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
466 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
467 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
468 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
469 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
470 VanIslander - New York Raiders
471 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
472 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
473 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
474 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
475 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
476 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets

Round #18
477 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets
478 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
479 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
480 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
481 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
482 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
483 VanIslander - New York Raiders
484 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
485 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
486 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
487 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
488 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
489 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
490 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
491 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
492 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
493 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
494 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
495 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
496 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
497 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
498 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
499 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
500 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
501 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
502 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
503 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
504 BM67 - New Jersey Devils

Round #19
505 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
506 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
507 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
508 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
509 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
510 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
511 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
512 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
513 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
514 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
515 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
516 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
517 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
518 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
519 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
520 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
521 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
522 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
523 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
524 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
525 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
526 VanIslander - New York Raiders
527 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
528 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
529 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
530 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
531 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
532 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets

Round #20
533 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets
534 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
535 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
536 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
537 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
538 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
539 VanIslander - New York Raiders
540 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
541 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
542 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
543 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
544 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
545 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
546 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
547 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
548 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
549 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
550 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
551 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
552 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
553 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
554 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
555 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
556 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
557 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
558 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
559 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
560 VanIslander - New York Raiders

Round #21
561 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
562 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
563 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
564 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
565 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
566 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
567 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
568 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
569 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
570 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
571 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
572 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
573 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
574 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
575 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
576 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
577 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
578 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
579 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
580 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
581 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
582 BM67 - New Jersey Devils
583 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
584 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
585 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
586 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
587 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
588 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets

Round #22
589 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets
590 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
591 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
592 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
593 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
594 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
595 VanIslander - New York Raiders
596 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
597 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
598 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
599 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
600 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
601 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
602 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
603 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
604 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
605 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
606 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
607 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
608 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores
609 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
610 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
611 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
612 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
613 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
614 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
615 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
616 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks

Round #23
617 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
618 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
619 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
620 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
621 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
622 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
623 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
624 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
625 VanIslander - New York Raiders
626 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
627 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
628 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
629 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
630 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
631 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
632 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
633 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
634 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
635 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
636 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
637 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
638 VanIslander - New York Raiders
639 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
640 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
641 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
642 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
643 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
644 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets

Round #24
645 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets
646 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains
647 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles
648 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers
649 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks
650 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators
651 VanIslander - New York Raiders
652 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
653 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons
654 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts
655 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels
656 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs
657 arrbez - Aurora Tigers
658 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways
659 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens
660 murphy - Edmonton Oilers
661 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs
662 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF
663 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars
664 VanIslander - New York Raiders
665 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers
666 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke
667 reckoning - Ottawa 67s
668 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins
669 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers
670 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
671 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals
672 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks

Trades:

Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals trade picks 55, 114 & 223 to Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators for picks 79, 90 & 191

doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains trade picks 27, 139 & 142 to nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds for picks 54, 59 & 115

BM67 - New Jersey Devils trade picks 1 & 225 to pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers for picks 4 & 165

Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals trade picks 58, 111 & 226 to arrbez - Aurora Tigers for picks 72, 97 & 209

Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins trades Bobby Hull and picks 52, 108 & 388 to pappyline - Guelph Biltmores for picks 9, 48, 104 & 384

shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars trades picks 66, 122, 178 & 215 to cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks for picks 80, 89, 192 & 201

BM67 - New Jersey Devils trade picks 112, 113, 616, 617 & 672 to cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks for picks 178, 248, 257, 304 & 313.

MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke trades picks 51 & 443 to cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks for picks 66 & 369

reckoning - Ottawa 67s trades picks 63 & 287 to MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke for picks 66 & 275

Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels trades picks 74 & 186 to Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals for picks 79 & 170

EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons trades picks 93 & 261 to Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins for picks 104 & 164

Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens trades picks 99, 126 & 182 to pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers for picks 109, 116 & 172

Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators trades picks 114 & 426 to VanIslander - New York Raiders for picks 134 & 302

pappyline - Guelph Biltmores trades picks 121, 625 & 664 to VanIslander - New York Raiders for picks 147, 414 & 427

pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers trades picks 126, 228 & 277 to seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts for picks 150, 187 & 243

The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways trades picks 127, 154 & 266 to EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons for picks 132, 149 & 244

EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons trades picks 154 & 412 to Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens for picks 172 & 267

Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators trades Igor Larionov and picks 247 & 359 to John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers for Bill Cowley and picks 249 & 361

Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins trades picks 173 & 261 to pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers for picks 182 & 243

Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs trades picks 180 & 292 to EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons for picks 188 & 267

MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke trades picks 622 & 667 to reckoning - Ottawa 67s for picks 623 & 666

doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains trades picks 195 & 419 to LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers for picks 204 & 301

BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles trades picks 199 & 255 to MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke for picks 219 & 230

Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels trades picks 207 & 263 to Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators for picks 223 & 249

BM67 - New Jersey Devils trade picks 224, 448 & 560 to VanIslander - New York Raiders for picks 259, 315 & 582

murphy - Edmonton Oilers trades picks 268 & 436 to EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons for picks 300 & 356

seventieslord
09-24-2007, 10:16 AM
I still want to move up in round 5. PM me any trade ideas; I will be away for two hours.

Leaf Lander
09-24-2007, 10:48 AM
117 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Sid Abel
66 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Syl Apps Sr.

174 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Bill Barber
74 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Andy Bathgate
96 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Ed Belfour
8 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Jean Beliveau
60 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Clint Benedict
123 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Doug Bentley
67 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Max Bentley
103 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Hector "Toe" Blake
110 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Rob Blake
156 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Leo Boivin
17 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Mike Bossy
92 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Butch Bouchard
108 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Frank Boucher
126 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - George "Buck" Boucher
11 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Ray Bourque
46 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Johnny Bower
147 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Carl Brewer
76 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Frank Brimsek
43 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Turk Broda
161 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Harry "Punch" Broadbent
29 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Martin Brodeur
101 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Johnny Bucyk
133 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Pavel Bure


122 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Guy Carbonneau
115 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Gerry Cheevers
41 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Chris Chelios
72 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - King Clancy
45 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Dit Clapper
25 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Bobby Clarke
59 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Sprague Cleghorn
42 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Paul Coffey
53 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Charlie Conacher
99 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Lionel “Big Train” Conacher
142 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Roy Conacher
54 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Bill Cook
116 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Yvan Cournoyer
144 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Bill Cowley

124 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Alex Delvecchio
131 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Cy Denneny
75 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Marcel Dionne
27 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Ken Dryden
38 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Bill Durnan


16 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Phil Esposito
112 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Tony Esposito

79 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Sergei Fedorov
32 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Viacheslav Fetisov
151 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Anatoli Firsov
153 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Fern Flaman
64 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Peter Forsberg
81 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Grant Fuhr
106 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Ron Francis



78 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Bill Gadsby
69 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Bob Gainey
89 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Chuck Gardiner
138 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Mike Gartner
48 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Bernie Geoffrion
169 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Clark Gillies
121 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Doug Gilmour
120 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Ebenezer "Ebbie" Goodfellow
180 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Michel Goulet
2 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Wayne Gretzky




93 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - George Hainsworth
31 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Glenn Hall
9 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Doug Harvey
22 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Dominik Hasek
98 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Dale Hawerchuk
90 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Jiri Holocek
167 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Red Horner
44 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Tim Horton
105 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Mark Howe
3 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Gordie Howe
155 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Harry Howell
58 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Brett Hull
5 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Bobby Hull

165 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Jarome Iginla

113 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Busher Jackson
28 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Jaromir Jagr
159 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Ching Johnson
127 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Tom Johnson
84 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Aurel Joliat

137 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Alexei Kasatonov
34 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Valery Kharlamov
18 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Red Kelly
65 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Ted Kennedy
118 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Dave Keon
125 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Vladimir Konstantinov
51 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Jari Kurri



86 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Elmer Lach
140 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Pat LaFontaine
10 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Guy Lafleur
70 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Newsy Lalonde
82 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Rod Langway
104 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Jacques Laperriere
91 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Guy Lapointe
135 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Igor Larionov
55 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Brian Leetch
162 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Jere Lehtinen
181 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Jacques Lemaire
4 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Mario Lemieux
19 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Nicklas Lidstrom
114 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Eric Lindros
30 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Ted Lindsay







40 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Al MacInnis
61 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Frank Mahovlich
88 John Flyers Fan & Roger's Pancreas - Flin Flon Bombers - Sergei Makarov
157 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Aleksandr Maltsev
170 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Sylvio Mantha
143 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Lanny McDonald
12 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Mark Messier
20 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Stan Mikita
71 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Joe Malone
95 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Boris Mikhailov
177 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Doug "Diesel" Mohns
145 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Mike Modano
62 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Dickie Moore
23 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Howie Morenz
136 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Larry Murphy
160 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Vaclav Nedomansky
102 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Cam Neely
57 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Scott Niedermayer
150 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Frank Nighbor


128 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Adam Oates
168 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Bert Olmstead
1 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - Bobby Orr



50 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Bernie Parent
39 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Brad Park
175 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Marty Pavelich
77 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Gilbert Perreault
178 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Vladimir Petrov
47 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Pierre Pilote
13 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Jacques Plante
14 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Denis Potvin
134 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Walter "Babe" Pratt
56 BM67 - New Jersey Devils - Chris Pronger
109 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Marcel Pronovost
176 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Brian Propp
172 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Claude Provost






107 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Bill Quackenbush

184 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Alexander Ragulin
154 Hockey Outsider - Montreal Canadiens - Jean Ratelle
119 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Ken Reardon
63 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Henri Richard
6 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Maurice Richard
24 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Larry Robinson
141 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Luc Robitaille
164 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Art Ross
15 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Patrick Roy



36 La pierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Joe Sakic
73 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Borge Salming
85 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets - Serge Savard
21 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - Terry Sawchuk
37 EagleBelfour - Detroit Falcons - Milt Schmidt
173 pitseleh - Nanaimo Clippers - David "Sweeney" Schriner
52 pappyline - Guelph Biltmores - Earl Seibert
132 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Teemu Selanne
100 murphy - Edmonton Oilers - Brendan Shanahan
7 reckoning - Ottawa 67s - Eddie Shore
146 Rick Middleton - Gwinnett Gladiators - Steve Shutt
171 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Albert "Babe" Siebert
129 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Darryl Sittler
49 Evil Sather & kruezer - New York Rangers - Billy Smith
158 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Allan Stanley
182 Evil Speaker - Boston Bruins - Pat Stapleton
87 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Peter Stastny
35 VanIslander - New York Raiders - Scott Stevens
83 doctordark - Portage la Prairie Plains - Jack "Blackjack" Stewart
94 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts - Nels Stewart
152 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Mats Sundin
185 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Gary Suter


80 shawnmullin - Victoria Cougars - Fred "Cyclone" Taylor
111 arrbez - Aurora Tigers - Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
179 God Bless Canada & raleh - Halifax RCAF - Esa Tikkanen
148 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers - J.C. Tremblay
68 Frightened Inmate #2 - Calgary RCAF Mustangs - Vladislav Tretiak
33 cottonking - Dallas Blackhawks - Bryan Trottier

139 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Norm Ullman

97 Nalyd Psycho & Sturminator - Oakland Seals - Valeri Vasiliev

166 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds - Bill White
149 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways - Doug Wilson
130 Wisent - Dubai Mighty Camels - Lorne "Gump" Worsley

26 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles - Steve Yzerman

163 MXD - Castors de Sherbrooke - Sergei Zubov

Last pick entered

185 Leaf Lander - Toronto Maple Leafs - Gary Suter



People have to stop missing your picks

check the draft when u wake up
at lunch
at dinner and 2 times b4 u go to bed

it takes just 2 minutes to see if your up.

and when you knwo you cnat make it send a list of 2 players to someone like bm67 myself gbc vanislander or whoever you trust!

Rick Middleton
09-24-2007, 01:54 PM
I thought Hockey Outsider PM'd his list to someone. For the love of God pick!!!

God Bless Canada
09-24-2007, 02:31 PM
I thought Hockey Outsider PM'd his list to someone. For the love of God pick!!!
I think HO PM'ed his list to Evil Speaker. So those picks will go quickly once the Speaker wakes up.

Sturminator
09-24-2007, 02:48 PM
You're right, arrbez, that Esposito did get shelled a lot in the playoffs. He was also a (very athletic) flopper. Perhaps I praised him unduly.

Evil Speaker
09-24-2007, 04:10 PM
Sorry guys, i woke up late today.

The Montreal Canadiens select RW Yvan Cournoyer

Evil Speaker
09-24-2007, 04:25 PM
This is a very tough choice but the Boston Bruins select LW/C Sid Abel

pitseleh
09-24-2007, 04:28 PM
Abel and Cournoyer are great value at this point in the draft.

pavel13
09-24-2007, 04:28 PM
Sorry guys, i woke up late today.

The Montreal Canadiens select RW Yvan Cournoyer


I was thinking/hoping that Rick Middleton would draft Cournoyer or somebody like him to go on that top line of Morenz and Kharlamov. I guess he still could.

MXD
09-24-2007, 04:36 PM
Keeping in our mold of 2-way and underappreciated C's, we select :
C Dave Keon

reck's been pm'ed

God Bless Canada
09-24-2007, 04:40 PM
Keeping in our mold of 2-way and underappreciated C's, we select :
C Dave Keon

reck's been pm'ed
pit, you want to talk about excellent value at this point? Doesn't get much better for value than Keon. Likely the best player available.

He tends to be picked (much) later than he should because he doesn't have the offensive game to be a No. 1 centre, and some might be scared off by his lack of size. But skill, smarts, leadership and all-round game are all there. Not to mention his faceoff ability and his backhand, both of which rate among the best ever.

A top 75 player ever, to be sure.

And E-Speak, I'm surprised it would be a tough decision on Abel. Players with that kind of versatility are very hard to find.

ck26
09-24-2007, 04:42 PM
cottonking selects G Tony Esposito and LW Busher JacksonThanks for making the pick for me...

Really like Jackson as a first-line goal scorer ... bold and assertive and just wicked talented. Trottier will be a great passer / playmaker at center and will provide the service Kurri and Jackson were used to. Kurri's defense will give Jackson a bit of freedom to be Jackson.

Jackson signed with the Leafs in 1929, joining his Marlie teammate Charlie Conacher, who'd turned pro just a few games before him. At 18, Jackson was the youngest player in the league, but he was brash and confident. In his first game - he knocked down his idol Howie Morenz. From the ice, Morenz offered his opinion of the awestruck newcomer: "You'll do."

Handsome with a quick smile, Busher got his nickname when he was injured and the team's trainer, Tim Daly, asked him to carry sticks, as was the tradition. "I'm not here to carry sticks. I'm here to play hockey," replied Jackson.Esposito's playoff mistakes (like everybody's playoff mistakes) are overrated ... one of only 4 keepers to win the Calder / Vezina combo ... three Vezinas total ... 1st/2nd team all-star 1970, '72, '73, '74, '80 ... 15 shutouts in one season ... and he catches righty, which gives shooters a little different look.

pappyline
09-24-2007, 04:51 PM
Esposito's playoff mistakes (like everybody's playoff mistakes) are overrated ...

No they aren't. Still have nightmares from 71.

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2007, 04:51 PM
pit, you want to talk about excellent value at this point? Doesn't get much better for value than Keon. Likely the best player available.

He tends to be picked (much) later than he should because he doesn't have the offensive game to be a No. 1 centre, and some might be scared off by his lack of size. But skill, smarts, leadership and all-round game are all there. Not to mention his faceoff ability and his backhand, both of which rate among the best ever.

A top 75 player ever, to be sure.

And E-Speak, I'm surprised it would be a tough decision on Abel. Players with that kind of versatility are very hard to find.

Keon falls as there are more teams because he doesn't stand out as a 1st line guy. It's hard to take him earlier. In a smaller draft I would as he's one of my 1st choices for a 2nd line center. When you look at the 1st line caliber players that fall, see Jackson, Cournoyer and Abel that is astonishing. There are a lot of dynamo forwards available latter. But the defense well dries up quick.

reckoning
09-24-2007, 04:57 PM
Ottawa 67s select:

http://www.beehivehockey.com/images/player_images_group2/kenreardon2.jpg
Ken Reardon

ck26
09-24-2007, 05:05 PM
No they aren't. Still have nightmares from 71.It happens to everyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roNUfTnSyhQ&mode=related&search=

Whenever I watch Esposito, I'm always really impressed at how aggressive he is ... he sprawls very aggressively ... played outside the crease a lot to cut down angles and play the puck. I see bits and pieces of Hasek and Brodeur and Roy in Esposito.

Rick Middleton
09-24-2007, 05:11 PM
I was thinking/hoping that Rick Middleton would draft Cournoyer or somebody like him to go on that top line of Morenz and Kharlamov. I guess he still could.

Cournoyer was on my short list, but the trade proposal to move down was too good to turn down.

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 05:29 PM
Cournoyer was on my short list, but the trade proposal to move down was too good to turn down.
Cournoyer was on my shortlist but a trade to get a valuable part of my team's chemistry was deemed preferable to a speedy offensive right winger among several speedy offensive right wingers.

Evil Speaker
09-24-2007, 05:30 PM
Evil Sather was online during his time to pick. I hope he was PMed

reckoning
09-24-2007, 05:34 PM
Evil Sather was online during his time to pick. I hope he was PMed
Yes he was.

pitseleh
09-24-2007, 05:53 PM
Boy, with all these people around we may be able to polish off nearly another round tonight.

If anyone has to go before their pick comes, feel free to send me a list if you need to.

Evil Sather
09-24-2007, 06:00 PM
AKJL:JLFKDJ:LFS I had Keon pegged when Speaker passed on him, woulda been a nice 1-2-3 down the middle with Beliveau and Forsberg.

Nonetheless the Rangers are pleased to select the talented, versatile D Ebenezer "Ebbie" Goodfellow.

He started as a talented goal scoring forward, but moved to defense in 1934-35. Once there he Captained three teams to the Stanley Cup, and garnered two 1st team all-star selections, as well as a 2nd and a Hart Trophy.

Smells like a winner to me.

EagleBelfour
09-24-2007, 06:01 PM
AKJL:JLFKDJ:LFS I had Keon pegged when Speaker passed on him, woulda been a nice 1-2-3 down the middle with Beliveau and Forsberg.

Nonetheless the Rangers are pleased to select the talented, versatile D Ebenezer "Ebbie" Goodfellow.

He started as a talented goal scoring forward, but moved to defense in 1934-35. Once there he Captained three teams to the Stanley Cup, and garnered two 1st team all-star selections, as well as a 2nd and a Hart Trophy.

Smells like a winner to me.


hmmm ... well, damn! He ws definitely my choice at 132, and tohught he would be available. Too bad.

seventieslord
09-24-2007, 06:06 PM
AKJL:JLFKDJ:LFS I had Keon pegged when Speaker passed on him, woulda been a nice 1-2-3 down the middle with Beliveau and Forsberg.

Nonetheless the Rangers are pleased to select the talented, versatile D Ebenezer "Ebbie" Goodfellow.

He started as a talented goal scoring forward, but moved to defense in 1934-35. Once there he Captained three teams to the Stanley Cup, and garnered two 1st team all-star selections, as well as a 2nd and a Hart Trophy.

Smells like a winner to me.

Very impressive pick.

raleh
09-24-2007, 06:14 PM
Man! I wanna pick so badly! I have to go give a quick tour of the museum. Apparently I don't get paid to sit at the front desk and do a fantasy draft. Be back in 30 minutes, hopefully we'll be up by then!

God Bless Canada
09-24-2007, 06:17 PM
pappy's on-line as we speak. Hopefully he has a pick coming soon.

pappyline
09-24-2007, 06:22 PM
Trade:

From Pappy line-5th,23rd,24th
From Van Islander-6th, 15th, 16th

Vanislander to confirm & select

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 06:23 PM
Trade:

From Pappy line-5th,23rd,24th
From Van Islander-6th, 15th, 16th

Vanislander to confirm & select
confirmed...

there's a guy who may be the third BPA at centre ice but he's number one when it comes to the Raiders style of play

MXD
09-24-2007, 06:25 PM
Keon falls as there are more teams because he doesn't stand out as a 1st line guy. It's hard to take him earlier. In a smaller draft I would as he's one of my 1st choices for a 2nd line center. When you look at the 1st line caliber players that fall, see Jackson, Cournoyer and Abel that is astonishing. There are a lot of dynamo forwards available latter. But the defense well dries up quick.


Well... I wouldn't use Keon as a 1st line center.... And wouldn't have drafted him if I already hadn't Richard pegged in role.

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 06:29 PM
http://www.logoserver.com/hockey/NewYorkRaiders.GIF

Doug Gilmour

http://www.portraits-caricatures.com/image-files/small-caricature-doug-gilmour.jpg

seventieslord
09-24-2007, 06:31 PM
http://www.logoserver.com/hockey/NewYorkRaiders.GIF

Doug Gilmour

http://www.portraits-caricatures.com/image-files/small-caricature-doug-gilmour.jpg

There's a guy who could play on my second line any day.

pitseleh
09-24-2007, 06:32 PM
Can't go wrong with a guy whose nickname is Killer.

EagleBelfour
09-24-2007, 06:34 PM
I wanna move up, I have pick 132.

ck26
09-24-2007, 06:58 PM
*cottonking blinks really hard, hits himself*

If I would have seen Stastny's name on the board (or is it off the board?), I could have done something useful with the last 20 minutes.

With the 122nd pick in the all-time draft, the Dallas Black Hawks are proud to select a former Chicoutimi Saguneneens, Nova Scotia Voyageurs, Montreal Canadiens and Dallas Stars great ... from Sept-Iles, Quebec

Guy Carbonneau

raleh
09-24-2007, 07:04 PM
Halifax is extremely excited about our next selection. There are a number of guys that GBC and I looked at, but we couldn't justify not selecting a guy that we feel is an absolute steal at this point. He won an ATD championship last year with the Clippers, and has great chemistry with our first line centre.

Halifax RCAF is pleased to announce the selection of Doug Bentley. Doug will man the LW of our top line alongside brother Max and the rugged Cam Neely.

Evil Speaker
09-24-2007, 07:05 PM
Halifax is extremely excited about our next selection. There are a number of guys that GBC and I looked at, but we couldn't justify not selecting a guy that we feel is an absolute steal at this point. He won an ATD championship last year with the Clippers, and has great chemistry with our first line centre.

Halifax RCAF is pleased to announce the selection of Doug Bentley. Doug will man the LW of our top line alongside brother Max and the rugged Cam Neely.

Fate has been good to you. An obvious choice.

pitseleh
09-24-2007, 07:05 PM
I figured you guys had your eyes on Bentley. Reuniting him with his brother is astute, especially with Neely there to clear space for them.

pappyline
09-24-2007, 07:07 PM
Halifax is extremely excited about our next selection. There are a number of guys that GBC and I looked at, but we couldn't justify not selecting a guy that we feel is an absolute steal at this point. He won an ATD championship last year with the Clippers, and has great chemistry with our first line centre.

Halifax RCAF is pleased to announce the selection of Doug Bentley. Doug will man the LW of our top line alongside brother Max and the rugged Cam Neely.
Thought you would pick him. I was considering him at #121 if I hadn't traded down. Interesting RW you have on that line. Should score lots with Max & doug feeding him.

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 07:08 PM
Guy Carbonneau
Ideal fourth liner on an all-time team and great third liner if sufficient scoring elsewhere, and certainly could play second line minutes if the team get s up a goal and seeks to protect the lead.

Carbo would be a poor pick in the Jim Robson because elite centres aren't as apparent. But the best defensive centre in the history of the game will have some effect in the Don Cherry division on the productivity of Lemieux, Beliveau, Esposito, Clarke at those times when the team's other centre to date, Trottier, isn't going toe to toe with those opposition greats. And with Kurri in the stable, the penalty kill should help counter some awesome powerplays.

Hockey Outsider
09-24-2007, 07:09 PM
Thoughts on the recent picks:

- I disagree that Nels Stewart is "limited and somewhat one-dimensional". I actually think he's one of the most well-rounded centres available. He was good enough to take over as his team's #1 defensemen during the 1926 playoffs when injuries decimated the Maroons. Incredibly, he won the Conn Smythe* as a blueliner. Stewart was strong and tough (though not very aggressive), sort of like Jean Beliveau. He was extremely consistent and durable for his era. The one complaint is that Stewart wasn't much of a playmaker. In fact, Seventieslord might be better off moving him to LW or getting a strong playmaking winger.

- Abel is great value at this point. Tough, aggressive, and a great playmaker. He's good enough to be a #1 centre but Mahovlich/Abel might give ES the best 1-2 punch at LW in the draft.

- Jackson is a good pick at this point, but two things prevent him from going even higher. One, his playoff resume is pretty spotty. He drops from 0.75 ppg in the regular season to 0.42 ppg in the playoffs. (In fairness to him, though, he did tie for 1st in PO scoring in 1935). Also, given the fact that he's a 5-time all-star, his Hart record is pretty weak. In fact, the only time he was a candidate was in 1937, when he had a distant 5th place finish. (Also note that one year where Jackson beat Joliat for the 1st-team all-star position, Joliat won the Hart and Jackson wasn't even nominated). I think he got a lot of LW votes because, aside from Joliat, there was relatively weak competition.

- The Bentleys are tiny and non-physical, but Neely will give them room to play.

MXD
09-24-2007, 07:10 PM
Halifax is extremely excited about our next selection. There are a number of guys that GBC and I looked at, but we couldn't justify not selecting a guy that we feel is an absolute steal at this point. He won an ATD championship last year with the Clippers, and has great chemistry with our first line centre.

Halifax RCAF is pleased to announce the selection of Doug Bentley. Doug will man the LW of our top line alongside brother Max and the rugged Cam Neely.

Very interesting... Coming from a guy who reunited the Richard brothers. First round matchup between the Richard and the Bentley's, perhaps?...
Nahhh...we won't be playing each other 1st round.

pitseleh
09-24-2007, 07:13 PM
I have a trade to announce:

To Nanaimo: 150, 187 and 243
To Regina: 126, 228 and 277

seventieslord to confirm.

Evil Speaker
09-24-2007, 07:16 PM
Thoughts on the recent picks:

- I disagree that Nels Stewart is "limited and somewhat one-dimensional". I actually think he's one of the most well-rounded centres available. He was good enough to take over as his team's #1 defensemen during the 1926 playoffs when injuries decimated the Maroons. Incredibly, he won the Conn Smythe* as a blueliner. Stewart was strong and tough (though not very aggressive), sort of like Jean Beliveau. He was extremely consistent and durable for his era. The one complaint is that Stewart wasn't much of a playmaker. In fact, Seventieslord might be better off moving him to LW or getting a strong playmaking winger.

Ultimate Hockey has Stewart rated as the worst defensive forward and worst skater of his era. He could have been a presence playing on the blue-line because of his agressiveness and strength, but I wouldnt call him one of the most well-rounded centers.

ck26
09-24-2007, 07:18 PM
The best defensive centre in the history of the game will have some effect in the Don Cherry division on the productivity of Lemieux, Beliveau, Esposito, Clarke at those times when the team's other centre to date, Trottier, isn't going toe to toe with those opposition greats.My thoughts exactly. Bentley and two other guys looked really interesting, but none of those three do much against Le Gros Bill or The Golden Jet.

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 07:18 PM
Ultimate Hockey has Stewart rated as the worst defensive forward and worst skater of his era.
I have heard about his poor skating before. All that means is a reduced transition game, still effective when puck pinned into the offensive zone.

seventieslord
09-24-2007, 07:19 PM
I have a trade to announce:

To Nanaimo: 150, 187 and 243
To Regina: 126, 228 and 277

seventieslord to confirm.

Confirmed.

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 07:20 PM
...against... The Golden Jet.
I assume Kurri will be matched up against him when you've got home ice advantage and with line changes on the fly.

Evil Speaker
09-24-2007, 07:20 PM
I have heard about his poor skating before. All that means is a reduced transition game, still effective when puck pinned into the offensive zone.

It also means back-checking is out of the question.

pitseleh
09-24-2007, 07:20 PM
I have heard about his poor skating before. All that means is a reduced transition game, still effective when puck pinned into the offensive zone.

He would have been perfect for Orr to bounce passes in off of.

MXD
09-24-2007, 07:22 PM
I have heard about his poor skating before. All that means is a reduced transition game, still effective when puck pinned into the offensive zone.

In fact... I think of Stewart as a kind of a perfect player to play on the power play...

John Flyers Fan
09-24-2007, 07:24 PM
Carbo would be a poor pick in the Jim Robson because elite centres aren't as apparent. But the best defensive centre in the history of the game will have some effect in the Don Cherry division on the productivity of Lemieux, Beliveau, Esposito, Clarke at those times when the team's other centre to date, Trottier, isn't going toe to toe with those opposition greats. And with Kurri in the stable, the penalty kill should help counter some awesome powerplays.

Carbo isn't the best defensive center in the division, let alone of all-time.

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 07:27 PM
Carbo isn't the best defensive center in the division, let alone of all-time.
I have never seen better. Nor has Wayne Gretzky.

So you must be making a judgement across eras, always open to contention.

Hockey Outsider
09-24-2007, 07:28 PM
Thanks for making my pick, ES. Cournoyer provides blinding speed, excellent goal-scoring ability and reliable, strong playoff performances. He won a Conn Smythe trophy, 10 Stanley Cups, and was a 4-time all-star.

Cournoyer was one of the great skaters in NHL history. His speed is matched by few, and his amazing acceleration will help the Canadiens' transition game (along with Potvin and Pronovost's breakout passes).

The Roadrunner was a bit small, but he was very muscular and had great lower body strength which made him hard to knock off the puck (i.e., Jagr). "Cournoyer's legs were so muscular that his pants had to be specially tailored to fit his legs".

It would be silly to say that Cournoyer could bring any team 10 Stanley Cups. But he was far more than a secondary player. He led the entire league in playoff scoring in 1973 (winning the Conn Smythe) and was 3rd in the league (1st on the team) in 1971. In 1968 and 1969, he led his team in points once each in the regular season and playoffs, and was 3rd another playoff year, up against teammates like Beliveau.

A little-known fact about Cournoyer is that he was the Habs' captain during their 1977-79 dynasty. His offense was significantly reduced (and he battled injuries), but he took on a more defensive role and provided valuable leadership to a talented but inexperienced club (sort of like what an aging Trottier, Abel and Yzerman did).

ck26
09-24-2007, 07:31 PM
I have never seen better. Nor has Wayne Gretzky.+1. The job he did against Gretzky in the '93 finals was impressive. Patrick Roy gets a lot of credit for that Cup, but it was far from a one-man effort.

Great quote I found on habslegends.blogspot.com ...“There’s a lasting effect on people who learned how to play the game for the [late 80's, early 90's] Montreal Canadiens. There’s the tradition, the winning attitude they had. It carries over wherever they go. It gets in your blood, and it trickles down to everybody around them.” says a certain very talented Dallas Star. “The experience, the values they’ve learned rub off on you. How to be unselfish, to be patient, to play with passion has rubbed off on me.”

While many criticized the Stars for acquiring older veterans, the Stars knew exactly what they were doing. They wanted winners to come into their dressing room and teach their team how to win. Winners who would help the Stars win a championship of their own. Winners like Guy Carbonneau.

John Flyers Fan
09-24-2007, 07:31 PM
I have never seen better. Nor has Wayne Gretzky.

So you must be making a judgement across eras, always open to contention.

I'll take Clarke over any center of the last 35 years. If the Selke existed earlier, Clarke would have a shelf full of them instead of just the one.

ck26
09-24-2007, 07:33 PM
JFF, who do you see as a better defensive center in the division than Carbo? I think he wins it easily, and is easily a top-3 defensive center of all time.He sees Bobby Clarke. As an all-round player, Clarke > Carbonneau. But killing a penalty or just shadowing somebody, Carbonneau > Clarke.

MXD
09-24-2007, 07:36 PM
I'll take Clarke over any center of the last 35 years.

Clarke wasn't the shadower Carbo was... It wasn't really his "mission", however.
The most amazing thing about the Habs cup in '93 was one of Carbo's linemate earning line .75 + PPG, while playing with Carbo. Carbo doesn't have a lot of offense, but creating turnovers CAN result in offense.

This said, really a good thing that Keon went before Carbonneau in this draft, something he didn't in the last one.

seventieslord
09-24-2007, 07:40 PM
I'm going absolutely mental waiting for my pick!!! Looking for another fast evening.

John Flyers Fan
09-24-2007, 07:41 PM
A great defensvie center doesn't need to be, and ideally is not a "shadow".

Take a look at the even strength goals again numbers for Clarke, just obscenely good.

As for the PK, Clarke and Parent were the reasons the Flyers had no fear committing all the penalties they did.

Clarke's edge in the face-off circle only adds to the advantage.

ck26
09-24-2007, 07:46 PM
A great defensvie center doesn't need to be, and ideally is not a "shadow".

Take a look at the even strength goals again numbers for Clarke, just obscenely good.

As for the PK, Clarke and Parent were the reasons the Flyers had no fear committing all the penalties they did.

Clarke's edge in the face-off circle only adds to the advantage.Clarke wouldn't HAVE an edge in the face-off circle against Carbonneau.

Please bear in mind that we're comparing a 20ish player in Clarke and a 120ish player in Carbonneau. Clarke's obviously better, and can stand up against Lemieux or Beliveau (mostly) on the first line. Clarke, as an all-around player, is better than Carbonneau, but as long as Carbo stays in his lane and just is what he is -- a phenomenal penalty-killer, checker, shutdown center, there aren't any who are better.

God Bless Canada
09-24-2007, 07:46 PM
Halifax is pleased to successfully reunite the Bentley brothers. We believe that Doug Bentley is unquestionably the best LW available, and frankly, we had him rated No. 1 on our list from the moment we picked Neely. Never thought we would be able to get him after we selected Neely. The Bentley's and Neely should prove to be one of the best lines in the draft. We believe we should also have outstanding chemistry with the Bentley's and the Neely-Bourque duo. While he never won a Cup, Doug was a key part of the last Milt Dunnell Cup champions.

Career highlights:
*1943 Art Ross Trophy winner
*Three-time first-team all-star (1943, 1944 and 1947)
*1949 second-team all-star
*Inducted into the HHOF in 1964
*No. 73 on the THN top 100 list
*Formed a dominant line in Chicago with his brother Max for several seasons.
*Named the top hockey player in Chicago for the first half of the 20th Century by the Herald American.

John Flyers Fan
09-24-2007, 07:51 PM
Clarke wouldn't HAVE an edge in the face-off circle against Carbonneau.

Clake has the edge in the face-off circle against anyone he lines up against.

ck26
09-24-2007, 07:52 PM
Halifax is pleased to successfully reunite the Bentley brothers. We believe that Doug Bentley is unquestionably the best LW available, and frankly, we had him rated No. 1 on our list from the moment we picked Neely. Never thought we would be able to get him after we selected Neely. The Bentley's and Neely should prove to be one of the best lines in the draft. We believe we should also have outstanding chemistry with the Bentley's and the Neely-Bourque duo. While he never won a Cup, Doug was a key part of the last Milt Dunnell Cup champions.

Career highlights:
*1943 Art Ross Trophy winner
*Three-time first-team all-star (1943, 1944 and 1947)
*1949 second-team all-star
*Inducted into the HHOF in 1964
*No. 73 on the THN top 100 list
*Formed a dominant line in Chicago with his brother Max for several seasons.
*Named the top hockey player in Chicago for the first half of the 20th Century by the Herald American.First lines with chemistry are hard to beat. Only problem is size ... the Bentleys weighed 300 lbs together, and there are a lot of defensemen who can punish them for it.

MXD
09-24-2007, 07:53 PM
Clake has the edge in the face-off circle against anyone he lines up against.

Dave Keon begs to differ.

MXD
09-24-2007, 07:57 PM
First lines with chemistry are hard to beat. Only problem is size ... the Bentleys weighed 300 lbs together, and there are a lot of defensemen who can punish them for it.

This is why Neely is a very important selection for them... I do not have a VERY HIGH opinion of the player himself -- one of the most overated ever, I might add, when you look at his whole career -- but in this setup, he could be great. Many D's will have their hands full with Neely, and many 1st line C's just don't have the defensive skillset and the speed to cover Bentley (of course, this isn't a problem we have in Sherbrooke :) ).

God Bless Canada
09-24-2007, 08:00 PM
This is why Neely is a very important selection for them... I do not have a VERY HIGH opinion of the player himself -- one of the most overated ever, I might add, when you look at his whole career -- but in this setup, he could be great. Many D's will have their hands full with Neely, and many 1st line C's just don't have the defensive skillset and the speed to cover Bentley (of course, this isn't a problem we have in Sherbrooke :) ).
Actually, this is the first draft that Neely didn't go in the top 100...

Watch Neely play. The guy dominated. Best combination of goal scoring and physical play available. In fact, I'll say that Neely's the best combination of goal scoring and physical play, outside of Mark Messier, in the last 30 years.

Four-time all-star. Fourth in career playoff goals-per-game. Defined the NHL power forward role. No way the guy is overrated.

From the "it's not a coincidence" file, the only times the Bruins have beaten the Habs in the playoffs in the last 59 years were when Neely was a player in the organization.

Outside of Howe and Richard, there isn't a better RW in the draft for the Bentley's than Cam Neely.

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 08:04 PM
Many D's will have their hands full with Neely, and many 1st line C's just don't have the defensive skillset and the speed to cover Bentley
Yes, many. ... :D But not all.

Gilmour and Stevens, or Gatsby and Lindros,... one of the duo neutralizes Neely, one clocks a Bentley. :hit: Heads up!

ck26
09-24-2007, 08:06 PM
Yes, many. ... :D But not all.

Gilmour and Stevens, or Gatsby and Lindros,... one of the duo neutralizes Neely, one clocks a Bentley. :hit: Heads up!... or somebody just drafts a certain Swedish defenseman ...

John Flyers Fan
09-24-2007, 08:07 PM
Actually, this is the first draft that Neely didn't go in the top 100...

Watch Neely play. The guy dominated. Best combination of goal scoring and physical play available. In fact, I'll say that Neely's the best combination of goal scoring and physical play, outside of Mark Messier, in the last 30 years.

Four-time all-star. Fourth in career playoff goals-per-game. Defined the NHL power forward role. No way the guy is overrated.

Never a 1st teamer, never the best player on his team, and never a top 10 player over a full season.

seventieslord
09-24-2007, 08:07 PM
First lines with chemistry are hard to beat. Only problem is size ... the Bentleys weighed 300 lbs together, and there are a lot of defensemen who can punish them for it.

Do we really care much about size in this draft though? Everyone is big now and practically everyone was small back then. Wouldn't it be more fair to look at a players' size in comparison to their peers? besides, we're more concerned about their individual skills and accomplishments, no?

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 08:08 PM
... or somebody just drafts a certain Swedish defenseman ...
:biglaugh: yeah... but it took seven years before that happened

The_Hockey_Guy18
09-24-2007, 08:09 PM
Watch Neely play. The guy dominated. Best combination of goal scoring and physical play available. In fact, I'll say that Neely's the best combination of goal scoring and physical play, outside of Mark Messier, in the last 30 years.

A young Eric Lindros disagrees. :naughty:

ck26
09-24-2007, 08:10 PM
Do we really care much about size in this draft though? Everyone is big now and practically everyone was small back then. Wouldn't it be more fair to look at a players' size in comparison to their peers? besides, we're more concerned about their individual skills and accomplishments, no?It's not fair to say Gordie Howe gets to physically pound the Bentleys when Larry Robinson and Chris Pronger don't.

seventieslord
09-24-2007, 08:11 PM
Never a 1st teamer, never the best player on his team, and never a top 10 player over a full season.

I think what he did in 1993-94 qualifies him as a top-10 player in the league, even when you consider he didn't play in almost 30 games.

God Bless Canada
09-24-2007, 08:11 PM
Never a 1st teamer, never the best player on his team, and never a top 10 player over a full season.
That's like saying Jari Kurri was never the best player on his team. I don't care if Neely was never the best on his team, when you play your prime with one of the top 10-12 players ever (and one of the greatest models of consistency ever), you're not going to be the best player on your team. That's a basic, common sense concept.

I'd say he was a top 10 player in 1989-90 and 1990-91 (especially when you take playoffs into consideration). An all-star in both those years. Would have likely been a Hart finalist in 1993-94 if his season wasn't cut short.

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 08:13 PM
Wouldn't it be more fair to look at a players' size in comparison to their peers?
Of course! That's what makes your 6'1 Nels Stewart a monster. Size and strength is relative to their peers AND all time, just like any other dimension to the game. Many factors to be weighed. No set formula.

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2007, 08:16 PM
Halifax is pleased to successfully reunite the Bentley brothers. We believe that Doug Bentley is unquestionably the best LW available, and frankly, we had him rated No. 1 on our list from the moment we picked Neely. Never thought we would be able to get him after we selected Neely. The Bentley's and Neely should prove to be one of the best lines in the draft. We believe we should also have outstanding chemistry with the Bentley's and the Neely-Bourque duo. While he never won a Cup, Doug was a key part of the last Milt Dunnell Cup champions.

Career highlights:
*1943 Art Ross Trophy winner
*Three-time first-team all-star (1943, 1944 and 1947)
*1949 second-team all-star
*Inducted into the HHOF in 1964
*No. 73 on the THN top 100 list
*Formed a dominant line in Chicago with his brother Max for several seasons.
*Named the top hockey player in Chicago for the first half of the 20th Century by the Herald American.

About bloody time he was selected, I kept having to hold my tongue when talking about forwards.

Good tactic getting Neely to protect them.

Clake has the edge in the face-off circle against anyone he lines up against.

Nels Stewart and Ted Kennedy are better.

MXD
09-24-2007, 08:20 PM
Actually, this is the first draft that Neely didn't go in the top 100...

Watch Neely play. The guy dominated. Best combination of goal scoring and physical play available. In fact, I'll say that Neely's the best combination of goal scoring and physical play, outside of Mark Messier, in the last 30 years.

Four-time all-star. Fourth in career playoff goals-per-game. Defined the NHL power forward role. No way the guy is overrated.

From the "it's not a coincidence" file, the only times the Bruins have beaten the Habs in the playoffs in the last 59 years were when Neely was a player in the organization.

Outside of Howe and Richard, there isn't a better RW in the draft for the Bentley's than Cam Neely.

I know this... And I know that stats alone cannot measure a player accomplishment. But when you look at Neely's career, and stats, and the era he played in, he really comes up short. He had quite a peak value as far as stats are concerned, and was always intimidating on the ice as soon as he joined the Bruins.It's kind of a pity for him that his career was shorter than it should have been, as I think he would have been a top performer in the Dead Puck Era because the guy was indeed very hard to stop, even he would have been a little post-peak as far as skills are concerned. If that's the first time he's drafted past top-100, that's indeed the first time he's drafted where he should, cause frankly, he just doesn't belong when you look at his career as a whole. And I don't even take the (no)Cup argument into consideration. As a support player (for the Bentley's) he's a great pick, likely the best RW for the Bentley's (I think of someone else less "expansive" who could have done the exact same job) -- but for a top main scoring threat, he remains a question mark to me.

raleh
09-24-2007, 08:25 PM
Ted Kennedy was better than Clarke in the circle...there's a couple of undrafted guys that are/were better too.

MXD
09-24-2007, 08:25 PM
Never a 1st teamer, never the best player on his team, and never a top 10 player over a full season.

To be honest with this statement, at least add that, when looking at an all-time perspective, that there's only 10 (plus 5 or 6 being discutable) players who were better than Ray Bourque... And only three of its contemporaries. (I consider Roy a better player than Bourque, if they can somehow be compared...)

Hockey Outsider
09-24-2007, 08:26 PM
Do we really care much about size in this draft though? Everyone is big now and practically everyone was small back then. Wouldn't it be more fair to look at a players' size in comparison to their peers? besides, we're more concerned about their individual skills and accomplishments, no?

I've always been in favour of using a player's "adjusted" size, so to speak. Doug Bentley would still be one of the lightest players in the league today, but, due to weight training, nutrition, etc., he'd be more like 160-170 lbs instead of 145. Eddie Shore would be 210-220 lbs, maybe more, instead of 194.

This still lets huge players like Pronger and Robinson push around truly small players like Bentley or Joliat, so modern players aren't penalized. It also gives the Shores and L. Conachers the raw force necessary to shut down the Neelys and Shanahans, which sounds right to me.

raleh
09-24-2007, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=Nalyd Psycho;10522789]About bloody time he was selected, I kept having to hold my tongue when talking about forwards.

Good tactic getting Neely to protect them.



We got Neely to protect Max and score an obscene amount of goals off of his feeds. We never dreamed in a million years Doug would fall to this round!

MXD
09-24-2007, 08:34 PM
I've always been in favour of using a player's "adjusted" size, so to speak. Doug Bentley would still be one of the lightest players in the league today, but, due to weight training, nutrition, etc., he'd be more like 160-170 lbs instead of 145. Eddie Shore would be 210-220 lbs, maybe more, instead of 194.

This still lets huge players like Pronger and Robinson push around truly small players like Bentley or Joliat, so modern players aren't penalized. It also gives the Shores and L. Conachers the raw force necessary to shut down the Neelys and Shanahans, which sounds right to me.

I'm tempted to add : don't build team around size though. Last time I had Mahovlich (huge for his time, only Béliveau taller and wasn't bigger, oh...with also some other dude undrafted yet but easy to figure out), Apps (6'1 195 for a 1910-born man makes him a 6'4 225 or so today, and you can safely add 5 pounds of training), plus some other big, big guys unselected yet. My Top-9, if we adjust, was roughly 6'2 215-220 lbs, And this was including the smallish Boris Mikhailov... In fact, the actual size of my 2nd line was roughly 6'3 220, and no player on it played past 1990. . I'd say grit and tenacity is more important than size... When Cournoyer and H.Richard and Mikhailov were hit, they just wouldn't go down...(granted, Mikhailov wasn't hit THAT often, though)

Oh... And I didn't fare so well in the last draft. Which is why my team is about the exact opposite of last draft, with my C's averaging 5'7 - 160 so far.

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 08:36 PM
I'd say grit and tenacity is more important than size...
:clap:

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2007, 08:40 PM
I agree on size, don't overly number crunch, guys who were small in there day are small, average is average, big is big and giant is giant.


We got Neely to protect Max and score an obscene amount of goals off of his feeds. We never dreamed in a million years Doug would fall to this round!

Still frees you up to draft a skilled LW, rather than worrying about size issues. But you came up stellar with your luck. By the late 4th, every team that passed on Doug I was stunned with, unless they needed defense or goal.

Hockey Outsider
09-24-2007, 08:41 PM
I'm tempted to add : don't build team around size though. Last time I had Mahovlich (huge for his time, only Béliveau taller and wasn't bigger, oh...with also some other dude undrafted yet but easy to figure out), Apps (6'1 195 for a 1910-born man makes him a 6'4 225 or so today, and you can safely add 5 pounds of training), plus some other big, big guys unselected yet. My Top-9, if we adjust, was roughly 6'2 220 lbs... And this was including the smallish Boris Mikhailov. I'd say grit and tenacity is more important than size... When Cournoyer and H.Richard and Mikhailov were hit, they just wouldn't go down...(granted, Mikhailov wasn't hit THAT often, though)

Oh... And I didn't fare so well in the last draft. Which is why my team is about the exact opposite of last draft.

Agreed. Don't get me wrong, size is very far down the list in terms of importance in an ATD. (For proof, see Pitseleh's winning team, it must have been one of the smallest group of forwards ever drafted). But it is one factor that deserves consideration, among many.

I also agree tenacity is more important than size. I won't elaborate now since most of the players I'm thinking of are undrafted.

Frightened Inmate #2
09-24-2007, 08:41 PM
I'd say grit and tenacity is more important than size...

Which is the knock against both Bentley's... they were notorious for their well lack of grit as well as their lack of tenacity especially with regards to injuries...

MXD
09-24-2007, 08:43 PM
Oh... and this comes off late. Mikhailov was picked where he should (as in, AHEAD of Cam Neely). Good job Wisent, even if this pick comes off as unsurprising to say the least, a bit like JFF drafting Clarke. He's the best not in the HHOF.

pitseleh
09-24-2007, 08:43 PM
Agreed. Don't get me wrong, size is very far down the list in terms of importance in an ATD. (For proof, see Pitseleh's winning team, it must have been one of the smallest group of forwards ever drafted). But it is one factor that deserves consideration, among many.

I also agree tenacity is more important than size. I won't elaborate now since most of the players I'm thinking of are undrafted.

Yep, my top-9 for the most part was really small. It did have some fierce players as has been mentioned (Lalonde being one of them).

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2007, 08:49 PM
Agreed. Don't get me wrong, size is very far down the list in terms of importance in an ATD. (For proof, see Pitseleh's winning team, it must have been one of the smallest group of forwards ever drafted). But it is one factor that deserves consideration, among many.

I also agree tenacity is more important than size. I won't elaborate now since most of the players I'm thinking of are undrafted.

Which is why I think Clancy was a steal. :) Obviously small, but not lacking at all in the grit and tenacity departments.

Frightened Inmate #2
09-24-2007, 08:59 PM
The Calgary RCAF Mustangs select Alex Delvecchio

Murphy
09-24-2007, 09:03 PM
The Edmonton Oilers select: Vladimir Konstantinov

pitseleh
09-24-2007, 09:04 PM
Murphy deserves an award for being the fastest picker in the ATD.

Frightened Inmate #2
09-24-2007, 09:07 PM
Murphy deserves an award for being the fastest picker in the ATD.

NOSE PICKER!!! Yeah..... about that.... I think I left part of me in grade 3.

No but really Konstantinov is one of those what if type picks in my opinion... great player but the alure of the unknown is why he gets picked so high relative to his accomplishments... shame about what happened to him though (obviously).

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2007, 09:11 PM
The Calgary RCAF Mustangs select Alex Delvecchio

Excellent way to anchor a 2nd line.

seventieslord
09-24-2007, 09:34 PM
The Regina Wildhearts are pleased to select four-time stanley cup winner and four-time retroactive Norris Trophy winner George "Buck" Boucher. This gives the Wildhearts an unparalleled one two punch on the blueline with Lidstrom. Can anyone else boast 9 Norrises on their roster?

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?mem=p196001&page=bio&list=#photo

nik jr
09-24-2007, 09:42 PM
The Regina Wildhearts are pleased to select four-time stanley cup winner and four-time retroactive Norris Trophy winner George "Buck" Boucher. This gives the Wildhearts an unparalleled one two punch on the blueline with Lidstrom. Can anyone else boast 9 Norrises on their roster?

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?mem=p196001&page=bio&list=#photo

pitseleh has orr, shouldn't be too hard after that.

great pick; we were hoping he would fall further but weren't counting on it. boucher beat out cleghorn and clancy among others those retroactive norris trophies.

raleh
09-24-2007, 09:46 PM
The Regina Wildhearts are pleased to select four-time stanley cup winner and four-time retroactive Norris Trophy winner George "Buck" Boucher. This gives the Wildhearts an unparalleled one two punch on the blueline with Lidstrom. Can anyone else boast 9 Norrises on their roster?

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?mem=p196001&page=bio&list=#photo

If we're counting retroactive Norrises then Pit and Speaker will both end up ahead of 9, as will Reck probably.

And about the unparalleled 1-2 punch: Orr-Conacher, Stevens-Gadsby, Cleghorne-Stewart, Niedermayer-Pronger, and Shore-Reardon are all as good or better IMO.

However, the best 1-2 punch in the draft by quite a wide margin is Dubai's duo of Red Kelly and Brad Park.

seventieslord
09-24-2007, 09:57 PM
If we're counting retroactive Norrises then Pit and Speaker will both end up ahead of 9, as will Reck probably.

And about the unparalleled 1-2 punch: Orr-Conacher, Stevens-Gadsby, Cleghorne-Stewart, Niedermayer-Pronger, and Shore-Reardon are all as good or better IMO.

However, the best 1-2 punch in the draft by quite a wide margin is Dubai's duo of Red Kelly and Brad Park.

Niedermayer-Pronger, with their one norris between them, not a chance.

Orr and anyone as good as Mathieu Schneider or better would be better, so that is more of a 1-1 punch.

Cleghorne-Stewart is fantastic, but not quite there.

Stevens-Gadsby, great players, but with zero norris trophies.... IMO, 9 is more impressive.

MXD
09-24-2007, 10:00 PM
If we're counting retroactive Norrises then Pit and Speaker will both end up ahead of 9, as will Reck probably.

And about the unparalleled 1-2 punch: Orr-Conacher, Stevens-Gadsby, Cleghorne-Stewart, Niedermayer-Pronger, and Shore-Reardon are all as good or better IMO.

However, the best 1-2 punch in the draft by quite a wide margin is Dubai's duo of Red Kelly and Brad Park.

EDIT.
Will write what I want after.

pitseleh
09-24-2007, 10:01 PM
Now my top-5 defensemen from ATD#6 have been selected by pick 126 (Clapper, Gadsby, Pronovost, Reardon, Boucher). :D

nik jr
09-24-2007, 10:05 PM
And about the unparalleled 1-2 punch: Orr-Conacher, Stevens-Gadsby, Cleghorne-Stewart, Niedermayer-Pronger, and Shore-Reardon are all as good or better IMO.

However, the best 1-2 punch in the draft by quite a wide margin is Dubai's duo of Red Kelly and Brad Park.

i agree, except about pronger--niedermayer. it isn't close to the others. shore and reardon will be in the box a lot, though.

VanIslander
09-24-2007, 10:07 PM
Niedermayer-Pronger, with their one norris between them, not a chance.

norris trophies.... IMO, 9 is more impressive.
A Conn Smythe and a Hart ought to be worth a half dozen or more Norris trophies.

There's a difference between ranking on all-time lists and best player to have in any given season.

Build a team rather than draft trophies, imo.

raleh
09-24-2007, 10:18 PM
Niedermayer-Pronger, with their one norris between them, not a chance.

Orr and anyone as good as Mathieu Schneider or better would be better, so that is more of a 1-1 punch.

Cleghorne-Stewart is fantastic, but not quite there.

Stevens-Gadsby, great players, but with zero norris trophies.... IMO, 9 is more impressive.

Big fan of hardware eh?

Niedermayer and Pronger are a duo with proven chemistry- that gives them an advantage right away. Pronger has a Hart- that trumps a Norris every time. The fact that they were selected way earlier than Boucher should give you an idea of what they'll do for New Jersey.
Cleghorne and Stewart to me are both top 20 guys and EXTREMELY underrated, but you can have your opinion too so we'll leave that alone.

Stevens and Gadsby have no Norris trophies BUT Stevens was the best player and captain of 3 stanley cup winning teams and is quite possibly the hardest hitter in leauge history. Gadsby was the third best defenceman in one of the most defensive eras in hockey history. Lidstrom has NEVER had to face the competition that Gadsby had to for Norris trophies. That's like punishing Park for never winning one. Plus Lapointe is also on that team. He and Stevens or he and Gadsby are a pretty formidable duo as well. This team has three dmen better than your #2 IMO.

You've got yourself a top 10 dman and a top 25-30 one as well. Pretty freakin' good. Halifax can't say the same. In fact none of my teams have ever been able to say that. But touting them as the best duo in the draft is going to raise some eye brows...or at least my eye brows.

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2007, 10:22 PM
Now my top-5 defensemen from ATD#6 have been selected by pick 126 (Clapper, Gadsby, Pronovost, Reardon, Boucher). :D
Getting Boucher as late as you did is one of the biggest steals in ATD history.

BM67
09-24-2007, 10:30 PM
Niedermayer-Pronger, with their one norris between them, not a chance.

One Norris each. :teach:

Also a Hart and a Conn Smythe, and Scott also tied for the playoff scoring lead in 03.

That plus the physicality of Pronger certainly keeps me in the running.

God Bless Canada
09-24-2007, 10:45 PM
A quick response to the Carbonneau pick...

This is by no means a condemnation of Guy Carbonneau. I think he's one of the top defensive centres of all-time. Maybe the best. I think you could definitely make a case for Guy in the HHOF. I would vote for him. Three-time Selke winner. Three-time Cup champion. And outside of Roy, nobody meant more to the 1993 Habs than Guy.

My problem with Guy's selection is that outside of high-scoring centres, the role with the most depth in the draft is strong defensive centres. We were picking top-notch defensive centres in the last minor league draft. And there were still some left over to be picked. The question isn't whether there's enough of a drop-off from Guy to No. 2 to warrant a selection in the first six rounds. It would be one thing if there was a big drop-off from No. 1 to 2. That could definitely justify the Carbo pick at this point. I don't think there's enough, and frankly, teams will be getting dominant shut-down centres in the 13th round.

Nalyd Psycho
09-24-2007, 10:49 PM
A quick response to the Carbonneau pick...

This is by no means a condemnation of Guy Carbonneau. I think he's one of the top defensive centres of all-time. Maybe the best. I think you could definitely make a case for Guy in the HHOF. I would vote for him. Three-time Selke winner. Three-time Cup champion. And outside of Roy, nobody meant more to the 1993 Habs than Guy.

My problem with Guy's selection is that outside of high-scoring centres, the role with the most depth in the draft is strong defensive centres. We were picking top-notch defensive centres in the last minor league draft. And there were still some left over to be picked. The question isn't whether there's enough of a drop-off from Guy to No. 2 to warrant a selection in the first six rounds. It would be one thing if there was a big drop-off from No. 1 to 2. That could definitely justify the Carbo pick at this point. I don't think there's enough, and frankly, teams will be getting dominant shut-down centres in the 13th round.

Then there's the Dave Keon factor, dominant shutdown centers who can put up some serious point totals.

pavel13
09-24-2007, 11:45 PM
Dave Keon and some others. Maybe not as good defensively, but there are some great two-way centers still available.

ck26
09-25-2007, 12:07 AM
My problem with Guy's selection is that outside of high-scoring centres, the role with the most depth in the draft is strong defensive centres. We were picking top-notch defensive centres in the last minor league draft. And there were still some left over to be picked. The question isn't whether there's enough of a drop-off from Guy to No. 2 to warrant a selection in the first six rounds. It would be one thing if there was a big drop-off from No. 1 to 2. That could definitely justify the Carbo pick at this point. I don't think there's enough, and frankly, teams will be getting dominant shut-down centres in the 13th round.Defense is a funny thing, because what makes it work can be a bit unpredictable, and the margin of error is small. Who knew that Lidstrom and Murphy were going to shut down the Legion of Doom in '97? $20 says even Scotty Bowman didn't know it was going to work. Maybe if the '93 Kings have Lemieux instead of Gretzky, the Habs can't stop him, Lemieux runs wild and the Kings win the Cup. Maybe Pahlsson and co. fail miserably at checking Spezza/Alfredsson/Hossa in the finals last spring. Whether defense succedes or fails often comes down to individual skill sets and subsets (a split-second faster reaction time determines if Brett Hull gets his shot off or if Bob Gainey poke-checks his puck away), psychology (ask anyone who's carried the puck across the New Jersey blue line) and sometimes even dumb luck.

Is the defensive player a hitter? Receiving a big hit makes some superstars run and hide while others don't wake up until they get nailed. Does constantly having someone half your size zip in and take your puck away frustrate you easily? Some forwards yes, others no. If my linemate Cam Neely is pissed off and frustrated, that's a good thing. If my linemate Jaromir Jagr is pissed off and frustrated, that's a bad thing. Simply too many paper-rock-scissors scenarios to cover all your bases.

My point is ... yes, there were a ton of good defensive forwards taken even in MLD 7 ... and, depending on the matchup, maybe some of the MLD7 checkers do a better job against the Beliveaus and Richards than Gainey and Carbonneau could. In certain matchups, even Fedorov, with his skating ability, might be more desirable than Carbonneau, even if you're just using Fedorov as a 3rd line grinder. Hard to say. But for the sake of debate in a drafting game, we do have:

Selke trophies: good tool, but only really gives you about a dozen names.
Point totals: offensive production is itself a useful skill, but what does it have to do with defense?
Citing specific results: Useful, but only in very specifc situations. Drawing broad conclusions based on what happened in game 6 of the such-and-such semifinals probably isn't fair to the guy who ate some bad food that afternoon or whose wife left him or was just having a lousy day.
Testimonial / anecdotal evidence: a total crapshoot for players pre-1960 or so. i'm watching Carbonneau live and I'm reading someone else's opinion about Dave Keon. 10 out of 10 scientists agree that isn't scientific.

Only Selke trophies + testimonial evidence are good tools, and we're playing a drafting game, so being able to convince voters I'm right will probably come into play eventually. I'm in a division against some of the best scorers in hockey history, so if I wait and take obscure guys (even guys I know can get the job done), the voters will kill me for it.

I don't think we'll be getting "dominant" defensive centers in the 13th round (we have different definitions of "dominant"), but we will be getting good ones. My problem is "what do I do to negate Mario Lemieux or Jean Beliveau?" I'd rather throw three or four Selke trophies at Lemieux than cross my fingers and hope that the voters will think as highly of [15th round grinder] as I do.Then there's the Dave Keon factor, dominant shutdown centers who can put up some serious point totals.I was looking for some of those with my two 2nd round picks ... how did I do? ;)

Roger's Pancreas*
09-25-2007, 01:08 AM
Big fan of hardware eh?

Niedermayer and Pronger are a duo with proven chemistry- that gives them an advantage right away. Pronger has a Hart- that trumps a Norris every time. The fact that they were selected way earlier than Boucher should give you an idea of what they'll do for New Jersey. Cleghorne and Stewart to me are both top 20 guys and EXTREMELY underrated, but you can have your opinion too so we'll leave that alone.How do they have proven chemistry? They spent one year together on different defensive pairings.

Nalyd Psycho
09-25-2007, 01:21 AM
I was looking for some of those with my two 2nd round picks ... how did I do? ;)

Fair enough, I do really like your 1st line. At least you aren't screwing yourself out of good scoring liners for a checking liner. It's just different from how I'd pick...

Rowdy Roddy Peeper
09-25-2007, 01:30 AM
Halifax is pleased to successfully reunite the Bentley brothers. We believe that Doug Bentley is unquestionably the best LW available, and frankly, we had him rated No. 1 on our list from the moment we picked Neely. Never thought we would be able to get him after we selected Neely. The Bentley's and Neely should prove to be one of the best lines in the draft. We believe we should also have outstanding chemistry with the Bentley's and the Neely-Bourque duo. While he never won a Cup, Doug was a key part of the last Milt Dunnell Cup champions.

Career highlights:
*1943 Art Ross Trophy winner
*Three-time first-team all-star (1943, 1944 and 1947)
*1949 second-team all-star
*Inducted into the HHOF in 1964
*No. 73 on the THN top 100 list
*Formed a dominant line in Chicago with his brother Max for several seasons.
*Named the top hockey player in Chicago for the first half of the 20th Century by the Herald American.

I must say, I do like how that line has come together. Neely's still picked a little early for my liking, all things considered, but Doug Bentley being picked so late makes up for it, and each of their games suit one another quite well.

I've always been in favour of using a player's "adjusted" size, so to speak. Doug Bentley would still be one of the lightest players in the league today, but, due to weight training, nutrition, etc., he'd be more like 160-170 lbs instead of 145. Eddie Shore would be 210-220 lbs, maybe more, instead of 194.

This still lets huge players like Pronger and Robinson push around truly small players like Bentley or Joliat, so modern players aren't penalized. It also gives the Shores and L. Conachers the raw force necessary to shut down the Neelys and Shanahans, which sounds right to me.

Couldn't have said it better myself. So I'll agree and try to catch some reflected glory. :D

pitseleh has orr, shouldn't be too hard after that.

great pick; we were hoping he would fall further but weren't counting on it. boucher beat out cleghorn and clancy among others those retroactive norris trophies.

A few he did. A couple of times he didn't. And two of those times he beat out Cleghorn for the retroactive Norris are very debatable, seeing as how Peg was the Hart runner-up in both '24 and '26.

Niedermayer-Pronger, with their one norris between them, not a chance.

Orr and anyone as good as Mathieu Schneider or better would be better, so that is more of a 1-1 punch.

Cleghorne-Stewart is fantastic, but not quite there.

Stevens-Gadsby, great players, but with zero norris trophies.... IMO, 9 is more impressive.

Care to elaborate?

Cleghorn was a great offensive defenseman who could skate very well, had as sound a defensive sense as any in his era, and could physically intimidate the opposition. He was recognized as the best defenseman in the game well before he had even won a Cup, and his esteem grew significantly from there.

Stewart was a defensive juggernaut and a lights-out hitter. Despite the fact that he was primarily known as a shutdown defenseman, when looking at his numbers it should be understood that cracking 20 points in his era meant you were an elite scorer from the back end. In the late '40s, plenty of All-Star defensemen didn't hit 20 points, and those who did managed it only by a hair. Stewart could contribute on the scoreboard too, relative to his time period.

Boucher and Lidstrom have great defensive sense, but neither is going to wear down the opposition physically, and Boucher was a lackluster skater. I like the combo, but it does have its faults.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper
09-25-2007, 01:35 AM
How do they have proven chemistry? They spent one year together on different defensive pairings.

But they like, hung out in the locker room and stuff.

Sturminator
09-25-2007, 02:04 AM
A couple of comments:

- "size relativity": completely agree. Small is small and big is big, regardless of era.

- what, no love for Clancy - Vasiliev as one of the top pairings? I don't think they are the best (how is that possible when two of the first three picks are spent on forwards?), but not so much as a mention?

As a pairing, they are remarkably similar to Cleghorn - Stewart, only not as mean and more offensive. Is there an anti-Russian bias that keeps some GMs from acknowledging Vasi's greatness, or are we forgetting that these are teams we're building and not isolated pairs? Given the unbelievable speed in the division at present and the presence of the most dynamic pair of forwards in the draft on the Seals' top line, I can think of few better combinations for our top pairing and certainly none better given the players available when we made the picks.

Although we liked guys like Conacher and Bouchard (and others) in the 4th, we aren't building a team of individual talents, but one which will play together with a unified philosophy. Offensive defensemen are most useful when they have the right forwards to work with. The Gretzky - Clancy combination (we all know how much Gretz liked to use the trailing defenseman) is a combination made in all-time hockey heaven.

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 03:31 AM
A Conn Smythe and a Hart ought to be worth a half dozen or more Norris trophies.

There's a difference between ranking on all-time lists and best player to have in any given season.

Build a team rather than draft trophies, imo.

You really think so?

take out all other variables - then compare a defenseman with 6 norrises to one who has just a hart or a smythe (forget for the moment that if he won the hart the norris should be a foregone conclusion) - you'd go for the flash in the pan?

Now, Niedermayer and Pronger aren't flashes in the pans, mind you, but let's not get all googly eyed over them either, due to recent history. Niedermayber has one one norris and was runner-up twice. He's even only made the 2nd all-star team once for a total of 4 times being top-4 for a season. Pronger has his one amazing season, but has not been a runner-up or a FTAS besides that. He does, however, have three 2nd team selections for a total of 4 times being top-4.

Niedermayer and Pronger have been top-5 defensemen for a decade and top-3 for the last five at least, but mainly due to Lidstrom (:handclap:), neither of them have been able to be "the" guy for any length of time. Compared to Nik, who has been "the" guy 5 times and bridesmaid three others.

I agree on building team rather than drafting trophies. That's two heavy hitters together on one blueline. But Lidstrom and Boucher in the all-time draft are what Pronger and Niedermayer are in today's league, and having them together didn't hurt the Ducks. It meant that one of them was on the ice at all times, and it didn't hurt their team dynamic having two guys that talented together. We're dealing in relatives here, and I'd rather have two guys on my top pair who were top-2 in norris* voting a combined 13 times, than two guys who did the same a combined 8 times.

Anyway, trust me, I have a team concept in mind. I expect to create balance for what I already have.

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 03:41 AM
Big fan of hardware eh?

Niedermayer and Pronger are a duo with proven chemistry- that gives them an advantage right away. Pronger has a Hart- that trumps a Norris every time. The fact that they were selected way earlier than Boucher should give you an idea of what they'll do for New Jersey.
Cleghorne and Stewart to me are both top 20 guys and EXTREMELY underrated, but you can have your opinion too so we'll leave that alone.

Stevens and Gadsby have no Norris trophies BUT Stevens was the best player and captain of 3 stanley cup winning teams and is quite possibly the hardest hitter in leauge history. Gadsby was the third best defenceman in one of the most defensive eras in hockey history. Lidstrom has NEVER had to face the competition that Gadsby had to for Norris trophies. That's like punishing Park for never winning one. Plus Lapointe is also on that team. He and Stevens or he and Gadsby are a pretty formidable duo as well. This team has three dmen better than your #2 IMO.

You've got yourself a top 10 dman and a top 25-30 one as well. Pretty freakin' good. Halifax can't say the same. In fact none of my teams have ever been able to say that. But touting them as the best duo in the draft is going to raise some eye brows...or at least my eye brows.

No, I hate hardware. :naughty:

I've addressed Nieds and Prongs up above, but I'd just like to add: what chemistry? They barely played together last season. Sure, prongs has a hart, but how many norrises can that compensate for, exactly?

Once you get past #15 for defensemen you can see all kinds of names there. Cleghorn is a sure thing, Gadsby.... maybe. I don't buy the competition argument. Either he was the best in the game at the time or he wasn't. I do give kudos for his 3 FTAS and 4 STAS.

I agree about stevens, but how much weight should we really be putting into these selected individual skills? Stevens was great offensively and could hit.... did it get him a norris? Should I draft Rico Fata because he's really fast? His speed never translated into more success. And the Bentley's softness didn't take away from theirs. #$^% @#$%^&*@# was slow, did that hurt him? In the end, shouldn't we care about what these skills netted in terms of individual and team accomplishments?

Again, it's all relative. Put them on the same sheet of ice and Boucher probably gets steamrolled by Gadsby and Stevens and Lidstrom. In terms of his excellence in his era, I don't see how he can't be considered better than the first two, and reasonably close to the third. Top-30, I'll settle for you conceding that, but his accomplishments speak more to me.

Not surprised that I raised some eyebrows though. While I'm at it, does any team even have two defensemen with three norrises each? What about two each? :D

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 03:42 AM
One Norris each. :teach:



:shakehead

I knew that.... egg on my face.

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 03:54 AM
Care to elaborate?

Cleghorn was a great offensive defenseman who could skate very well, had as sound a defensive sense as any in his era, and could physically intimidate the opposition. He was recognized as the best defenseman in the game well before he had even won a Cup, and his esteem grew significantly from there.

Stewart was a defensive juggernaut and a lights-out hitter. Despite the fact that he was primarily known as a shutdown defenseman, when looking at his numbers it should be understood that cracking 20 points in his era meant you were an elite scorer from the back end. In the late '40s, plenty of All-Star defensemen didn't hit 20 points, and those who did managed it only by a hair. Stewart could contribute on the scoreboard too, relative to his time period.

Boucher and Lidstrom have great defensive sense, but neither is going to wear down the opposition physically, and Boucher was a lackluster skater. I like the combo, but it does have its faults.

Cleghorn and Boucher have to be close. 8 all-star team selections to 7, same era, Cleghorn is better by reputation, and went to more finals, and Boucher won more cups. I wanted Cleghorn 80 picks ago, so I'm not gonna say Boucher is better. But if he was a lackluster skater and was still a 4-time norris* winner then he must have been doing a lot of the other stuff well.

I like Stewart a lot... I think you are overrating his offense, though. His totals still only translate to 158 adjusted points. Seibert had 431, Bouchard 241, Goodfellow 632, and there were a couple others I shouldn't mention.

I'd take #5 and #15 over #12 and #17. (which is roughly where they'd all rank, right?)

Sturminator
09-25-2007, 04:58 AM
I think George Boucher is an excellent talent and a serviceable #1 defenseman in the right system. Good pick. He's another guy who Nalyd and I discussed as a potential first-pairing Seal, but in the end his lack of high-end size/strength (especially with Clancy already in the fold) and speed are issues, though his skill is unquestionable.

I would add that, in general, I have a problem with offensive defensemen who are not, in fact, good skaters. This group includes Boucher, Conacher and other undrafteds. High-skilled defensemen who can control the play are valuable, but if the legs can't hold up their end of the bargain, a defenseman's potential for offensive contribution is somewhat limited and you kind of have to build a team around covering their weaknesses if you expect to get the most out of them. If it for this reason that I cannot classify guys like Boucher and Conacher as "rushing defensemen". They have high-end offensive skills, but if you can't skate, you can't really rush. This applies to any team, though perhaps moreso to an attack spearheaded by Gretzky and Bathgate, who are good skaters and make plays in transition as well as any players in history.

Of course, I believe that the same goes for any area of weakness. Clancy is the complete package offensively and quite skillful and tenacious in his own zone, but he is small and needs a partner who can cover for him. Fortunately he has one, and it was precisely for his completeness that we targeted Vasiliev. Truly complete players are quite rare outside of the 2nd round, so it's not really criticism to point out that certain guys lack in one area or in another.

One more note on Clancy: his first seven peak seasons (23-30) in the NHL were played before the advent of postseason all-star selections. He was selected to the 1st or 2nd team all-star squads (twice each) during all four of his final peak seasons, from 31-34. How many more all-star selections might Clancy have had? A very good argument can be made that he'd have had a run of perhaps ten or eleven straight seasons on the postseason all-star teams, putting him on the same level as the great Earl Seibert. That's how good Clancy was, and it wasn't just for his offense.

What ifs are only worth so much, but I think it's worth noting that the King was a perrenial all-star when such things existed, even though he was actually on the tail end of his career.

VanIslander
09-25-2007, 05:11 AM
Since seventieslord has stuck around for heavy debate he must have PM'd the next g.m., The_Hockey_Guy18, must he not have?

Nearly 8 hours into the clock...

Sturminator
09-25-2007, 05:16 AM
Jack Stewart is what I'd call a "useful" offensive player in transition. He was a hell of a skater and a fine passer, but that's about it. Similar to Vasiliev, actually, though I think Vasa had more offensive responsibilities (and perhaps a bit more skill) on his teams, specifically on the powerplay. Neither should be mistaken for a high-end offensive defenseman, however, but their combination of skating and passing skills make them useful players in transition.

EagleBelfour
09-25-2007, 05:32 AM
I'll be back at 9:30AMET for people I sent offers.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper
09-25-2007, 06:00 AM
Cleghorn and Boucher have to be close. 8 all-star team selections to 7, same era, Cleghorn is better by reputation, and went to more finals, and Boucher won more cups. I wanted Cleghorn 80 picks ago, so I'm not gonna say Boucher is better. But if he was a lackluster skater and was still a 4-time norris* winner then he must have been doing a lot of the other stuff well.

I like Stewart a lot... I think you are overrating his offense, though. His totals still only translate to 158 adjusted points. Seibert had 431, (#### edited), Goodfellow 632, and there were a couple others I shouldn't mention.

I'd take #5 and #15 over #12 and #17. (which is roughly where they'd all rank, right?)

I'd question exactly how close they were. Cleghorn won 5 retro Norrises (including NHA) to Boucher's 4, and that discounts the fact that Peg had 2 Hart runner-ups during years Boucher won (which would seem to fly in the face of 2 of Boucher's awards). He was by contemporary accounts faster, more mobile, and more physical than Boucher.

It's also worth mentioning that in the Trail of the Stanley Cup, Boucher wasn't one of the 4 nominated defensemen for the 1893-1926 All-Star Team, while Cleghorn made the nomination and the final cut. Boucher was a great defenseman, but he's no Peg, and he's not that close. That said, I like him very much where you got him.

In regards to Blackjack's offense, I'm not trying to make him out to be Paul Coffey by any stretch, but he isn't completely inept in the opposition's zone. I don't know how the adjusted stats are tabulated, but I'd be willing to bet that they didn't take into account that Stewart missed two high-scoring war years that Seibert didn't, or that Goodfellow played forward for the first half of his career.

I'm not saying Stewart is Seibert or Goodfellow's equal on offense, but the chasm isn't as gaping as you make it out to be.

nik jr
09-25-2007, 06:01 AM
1st of all, i thought undrafted players were not to be mentioned.

cleghorn was indeed hart runner-up for 2 of those norris boucher was awarded, but i don't think that necessarily means he was better those seasons. (the early hart voting seems to me to be much more focused on value to his team. i think that's why dmen got hugely more votes in the early years than they do now.)
doesn't matter a lot in this case because i think most everyone thinks cleghorn is better than boucher. in a 1933 newspaper article cited in another thread by Hockey Outsider, shore was being compared to the best dmen ever, and cleghorn was 1 of them.

i think clancy was given 10 (5 1st, 5 2nd) all star selections and 2 retroactive norris trophies. that same 1933 article says clancy was better defensively than shore.
that makes me wonder about shore. i don't think he was at all bad defensively, but i haven't read really anything about shore's great defense (however, i have read that contemporaries like cleghorn, boucher, clancy and others were very good defensively), it seems he was known for his offensive ability and legendary toughness (and for being a major league a-hole).

The_Hockey_Guy18
09-25-2007, 06:12 AM
Trade to announce:

To the Dartmouth Subways: 132, 149, 244
To the Detroit Falcons: 127, 154, 266

EagleBelfour to confirm.

Leaf Lander
09-25-2007, 06:27 AM
Trade to announce:

To the Dartmouth Subways: 132, 149, 244
To the Detroit Falcons: 127, 154, 266

EagleBelfour to confirm.

he got 3 hrs to comfirm it

also u obvioulsy didntcheck the draft last night b4 bed

please so do so whenever possible so we dont wait all night for a trade announcement.

arrbez
09-25-2007, 06:29 AM
Unless that trade gets confirmed in the next half hour or so, I'll need someone to take my pick since I'll be at school all day. Any volunteers?

Leaf Lander
09-25-2007, 06:34 AM
Unless that trade gets confirmed in the next half hour or so, I'll need someone to take my pick since I'll be at school all day. Any volunteers?

ill take it im right after u though

but u can trust me

if u need too

nik jr
09-25-2007, 06:34 AM
Unless that trade gets confirmed in the next half hour or so, I'll need someone to take my pick since I'll be at school all day. Any volunteers?

happy to.

arrbez
09-25-2007, 06:36 AM
Cool, I'll send it off to one of you guys at around 8:00 if the pick isn't amde by then. Thanks,

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 07:49 AM
To quote Chris Berman

"Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick"

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 08:11 AM
While I'm here, I have a question. Seventieslord identified that Boucher had 4 retroactive Norris trophies. Which source are we using to determine whether a player was awarded a specific trophy retroactively?

BM67
09-25-2007, 08:31 AM
While I'm here, I have a question. Seventieslord identified that Boucher had 4 retroactive Norris trophies. Which source are we using to determine whether a player was awarded a specific trophy retroactively?

I'd assume that's from Ultimate Hockey (http://www.amazon.ca/Ultimate-hockey-Glenn-Weir/dp/0773760571), but it might be from pnep's list that he uses for his HHOF Monitor (some of which might be taken from Ultimate Hockey). I don't recall any other retro Norris lists. A rough guide would be 1st team all-star voting leader (listed first) from 31-53. The top 4 match over 80% of the time between Norris and all-star voting.

Here's the retro Conn Smythe list:

http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 08:45 AM
I'd assume that's from Ultimate Hockey (http://www.amazon.ca/Ultimate-hockey-Glenn-Weir/dp/0773760571), but it might be from pnep's list that he uses for his HHOF Monitor (some of which might be taken from Ultimate Hockey). I don't recall any other retro Norris lists. A rough guide would be 1st team all-star voting leader (listed first) from 31-53. The top 4 match over 80% of the time between Norris and all-star voting.

Here's the retro Conn Smythe list:

http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml

Cool, thanks.

Leaf Lander
09-25-2007, 08:47 AM
I'd assume that's from Ultimate Hockey (http://www.amazon.ca/Ultimate-hockey-Glenn-Weir/dp/0773760571), but it might be from pnep's list that he uses for his HHOF Monitor (some of which might be taken from Ultimate Hockey). I don't recall any other retro Norris lists. A rough guide would be 1st team all-star voting leader (listed first) from 31-53. The top 4 match over 80% of the time between Norris and all-star voting.

Here's the retro Conn Smythe list:

http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml

I did a thread really simular on history of hockey board

EagleBelfour
09-25-2007, 09:04 AM
Trade to announce:

To the Dartmouth Subways: 132, 149, 244
To the Detroit Falcons: 127, 154, 266

EagleBelfour to confirm.

Sorry for the waiting, I sent this trade to VanIslander and MXD to confirm it from me; seems none of them have connect yet today.

We didn't took any chance with this pick, as we thought he was clearly the best defenseman available at this time. With the 127th pick in the All-Time Draft, the Detroit Falcons select a great offensive defenseman with a great transition game. An effortless skater with good puckhandling and passing abilities, he has all the qualities to anchor the Falcons PP and PK unit. A partner of young Jacques Laperriere later in his career, the Falcons proudly select defenseman Tom Johnson.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/members/splash/P197003S.jpg

Stanley Cup (1953, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960)
First All-Star Team Defense (1959)
James Norris Memorial Trophy (1959)
Second All-Star Team Defense (1956)
Inducted into the Hall of Fame (1970)

Rowdy Roddy Peeper
09-25-2007, 09:19 AM
1st of all, i thought undrafted players were not to be mentioned.

Indeed. Someone else mentioned him first, and I somehow assumed that because of that, he'd been taken. I've edited it from my post.

cleghorn was indeed hart runner-up for 2 of those norris boucher was awarded, but i don't think that necessarily means he was better those seasons. (the early hart voting seems to me to be much more focused on value to his team. i think that's why dmen got hugely more votes in the early years than they do now.)

Or maybe the Hart just recognized overall value better back then, rather than basically being an augment to the scoring title.

doesn't matter a lot in this case because i think most everyone thinks cleghorn is better than boucher. in a 1933 newspaper article cited in another thread by Hockey Outsider, shore was being compared to the best dmen ever, and cleghorn was 1 of them.

Sounds interesting. What thread is that?

nik jr
09-25-2007, 09:28 AM
Or maybe the Hart just recognized overall value better back then, rather than basically being an augment to the scoring title.
very possible. i think dmen usually get neglected in hart voting.

Sounds interesting. What thread is that?
maybe i'll regret telling you, but it's in the stickied award and all star voting thread.

Leaf Lander
09-25-2007, 09:34 AM
Cool, I'll send it off to one of you guys at around 8:00 if the pick isn't amde by then. Thanks,

arrbez picks

C Adam Oates

Leaf Lander
09-25-2007, 09:35 AM
ok i am on the clock

I should pick within the hr

Leaf Lander
09-25-2007, 09:45 AM
:leafs select

Darryl Sittler C

Darryl was a choppy skater which seemed to make him quick around the net and gave him that extra burst of speed when he needed it. He had a unique skating style. Darryls game was composed of a masterful combination between skill and toughness. He was strong on the puck and had a deceptivley hard shot and was a forrunner of a power forward style of play, strong, good dish, Darryl was a hard-nosed player, completely accountable he played in all the tough area's of the ice and was willing to drop 'em. fought only a few times a year but was rarely on the losing end. He had superior instincts and was capable of unpredictable spurts of offensive greatness.tough, skilled, fast, good puck distributor. A very good player simular to Joe Sakic His style has been enherited though adapated by Gilmour Yzerman Crosby Sakic and Ingina

The game was more nasty back in the 70's an era of bradway bullies set the tone. Darryl was able to dodge sticks elbows and bone crushing hits on the ice and use his brains and wits to out last the bandits who ran MLG off the ice.
Darryl's hero was Jean Belliveau and that is who he tried to model his game after. He had a physical element. He was a terrific leader.. He seemed to have that sense that the greats did to get to the right places at the right tim
Darryl was the Quintiessential leaf.

Sittler's ties to the NHL started early. His first good pair of hockey skates belonged to former neighbour Rod Seiling, who was starring with the New York Rangers. By fifteen, Darryl was being noticed, and during the midget draft in 1967, was selected third overall by the Junior A London Nationals, coached by Leaf legend Turk Broda.

He was drafted by the Leafs 8th overall in the 1970 Entry Draft." Unlike today's top fifty or sixty picks, very few of the better players eligible for selection attended the draft session," Darryl stated. Toronto had the eighth pick, and chose the London Knights centre. "I was hard at work building swimming pools in London," laughs Darryl, remembering his draft day. "I'd been a Maple Leaf about five or six hours before I found out. I heard the news on the radio on the way home from my summer job that evening."

Jim Gregory, the Leafs' general manager, had plans for Darryl, but they weren't at centre ice. "We felt we were in good shape at centre then with Ullman,Keon,Walton and Harrison. But we did need help on the left side," he told the Toronto Star. "Just about everybody in the organization had a chance to scout Sittler and they all rated him very high."

Johnny McLellan (Leaf coach) told me he'd give me a chance to make the team as a Left Winger, Sittler was determined to make it. "As I watched Keon zip up and down the ice, I wondered if I'd ever get close to Keon's speed and skills," Sittler mused in a Toronto Sun article. Leaf management tipped there hat that they had designs on the young forward when they gave him #27 which was the number Frank Mahovlich had worn. "I figured management was trying to send me a message." sittler said.

Sittler had worn 9 as a junior.His idols were centres - Norm Ullman and Jean Beliveau. Mahovlich was a left winger. But I was well aware what he'd done as a Leaf. He'd been one of their greatest players so it gave me a really good feeling when I was handed his number."

He saw limited action in his first pro season in 1970-71 because he broke his wrist and missed ten weeks of action, but was back for the playoffs. He scored a modest 10 goals and collected 18 points in an abbreviated rookie season.

Because of the injury he had an unremarkable sophomore year scoring just 32 points.When he returned to training camp the following year, Darryl was determined to do better. However he neeeded strength and conditioning to his injured wrist because it was giving him trouble. He couldn't shoot hard enough and wasn't releasing the puck quickly enough. He strengthened his wrist by squeezing springs and played with a brace on my wrist."

In 1972-73, he began to establish himself as an offensive star, finishing with 77 points - a total he would better in all but three of his subsequent 12 seasons in the NHL.

In 1973-74 the leafs signed him to a lucarative 5 yr deal. Things were looking up for the leafs under coach Red Kelly. Sittler and his young team mates Borje Salming, Inge Hammarstrom, Lanny McDonald and Ian Turnbull would all be part of a memorable 1970's leafs team.

The following seasons illustrated Darryl's consistency - 36 goals and 80 points in 1974-75, 41 goals and 100 points in '75-76 and 38 goals and 90 points in '76-77

Darryl Sittler is arguably the most popular player in the history of the Toronto Maple Leafs. No other player performed so well for so long amidst the cartoonish buffoonery of Leafs owner Harold Ballard.
The Leafs were in a rebuilding phase early in his career and many veterans either retired or were traded.September 1975 the 24-year-old Sittler took over the captain's duties, becoming the second-youngest captain in Leafs history after Teeder Kennedy.

"We wanted Sittler as the captain because he wasn't afraid to speak up for his teammates, he was a man respected by both players and management," stated Jim Gregory
Sittler had an incredible year in 1975-76. On February 7, 1976, he produced the greatest offensive game in the history of the National Hockey League, guaranteeing his place in the record books even after Wayne Gretzky had come and gone. Toronto was hosting the Boston Bruins, a team on a seven-game winning streak. The Bruins had recently reacquired Gerry Cheevers, but coach Don Cherry wanted to give the goalie a rest before his upcoming Boston homecoming and started rookie netminder instead. Poor Dave Reece, who was in goal for the Bruins that night, would never play another NHL game
The Leafs beat up the Bruins 11-4, but Sittler was the big story. He had two assists in the first period, three goals and two assists in the second and another hat trick in the third. The total of six goals and four assists set a league record for points in one game that had previously been held by Maurice "Rocket" Richard with eight.

The big night helped Sittler become the first Leaf to reach the 100 mark in scoring in a season, collecting 41 goals and 59 assists. But he wasn't finished.

Much has been made about the 'Pyramid Power' that Red Kelly used to help motivate his team. The Leafs were under terrific pressure to beat the Flyers. Owner Harold Ballard predicted that the Leafs would whip the Flyers in five games. Kelly, whose sons had visited Egypt and spoke passionately about the supernatural powers of the pyramid, gave their father an idea. He placed pyramids under the Leaf bench and in the dressing room. "Red put a pyramid in the dressing room. I put my sticks underneath it hoping it might help." It seemed to help, but so did the assistance of something else - "I have a tie I wear when it's a crucial game," admitted Sittler. "I wore it one night when I got three goals. I had it on the time I had the ten points against Boston. I felt this game was so crucial, I went to the cleaners to pick up the tie specially." Whether it was pyramids or lucky ties, Darryl had another outstanding game. "I don't really know how to describe how I feel. I guess I feel lucky. I just don't know why it happened

During the playoffs in April against the Philadelphia Flyers, Sittler scored five goals in one game, tying the playoff record.

In September, during the Canada Cup in Montreal, Sittler would make headlines again with his scoring ways. This time it wasn't the quantity but the quality and the timeliness that made the impression. In overtime of the second game of the best-of-three finals versus Czechoslovakia, Sittler held onto the puck on a partial breakaway until Czech goalie Vladimir Dzurilla committed himself and an opening presented itself. The goal secured the championship and made Sittler an overnight hero in Canada. "It was an experience I'll never forget. Just being on the team was fantastic" said sittler.

Most Memorable Goal

In his autobiography, Sittler explained the integral role of assistant coach Don Cherry's in Darryl's landmark goal on September 15, 1976. With the score tied at four after regulation time, Cherry addressed Team Canada "'I've been upstairs watching this guy, Dzurilla, for three games,' he began. 'He likes to come out real fast to cut down the angle on any rush. After you go in over the blueline, fake a slapper. If you see him come out of his net, draw it back in and go wide and deeper. He'll leave you with most of the net empty.'" During overtime, Sittler carried the puck down the left wing, faked a shot at netminder Vladimir Dzurilla, who had come out fifteen feet to cut down the angle, then skated past the goalie and deposited the puck into the open net at 11:33 of overtime to give Team Canada a sweep in the best of three final over Czechoslovakia to claim the first Canada Cup title. "After I scored the goal, the whole team surrounded me out on the ice and we went into a group hug with Lanny (McDonald) leading the world in oxygen-threatening squeezes and hollering," wrote Darryl in 'Sittler.' The goal scoring hero earned a spot as the tournament's All-Star left winger, as well.
In 1977-78, Sittler registered 117 points and was selected to the league's Second All-Star Team. The Leafs had their best playoff showing in years, making it to the semi-finals. But things began to fall apart, for the franchise and for its captain, in 1979-80 when cantankerous owner Harold Ballard replaced much of his management, bringing in Punch Imlach to run the team.

On July 4, 1979, Harold Ballard shocked the hockey world by re-hiring Punch Imlach to run the Maple Leafs. One of his first moves was to prevent Darryl from participating in a 'Hockey Night in Canada' intermission feature called 'Showdown.' Both Sittler and Leaf goaltender Mike Palmateer had been selected to participate in the skills competition. In his first meeting with the new GM, Sittler quotes Imlach as saying, "I'm the GM. You don't decide to go to 'Showdown,' I decide, and I don't want you to go." Darryl went to the show's taping and, in spite of a last ditch effort by the Leafs to prevent the two stars from taking part, did so wearing generic sweaters. But it was the first of a series of confrontations between Imlach and Sittler. Eventually, to assert his power, the Leafs' general manager traded away a number of players close to Darryl, who happened to have a no-trade clause in his own contract. First to go was Pat Boutette, a former teammate with the London Nationals. Then, it was Lanny McDonald, Sittler's closest friend on the Leafs. "The shock was so palpable, some of the guys fell back or slumped in their seats as if they'd been struck physically," Sittler recalled in his autobiography. Darryl questioned management and whether he wanted to continue as the team's on-ice leader. 'When I was made captain, it was the happiest day of my life,' Sittler wrote in a letter announcing his resignation as captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs. "In a very emotional speech to the players, I explained what I was doing, and why I was doing it. Imlach was trying to break down this whole team, didn't want me as captain and wouldn't let me function as one. All of the outside controversy had gotten too big; all I wanted to do as play hockey."

Further changes took place that impacted on the team and on Sittler personally. Dave Hutchison was traded - he, too, a former teammate of Darryl's in London. Then, another linemate and friend, Tiger Williams, was sent to the Canucks. Darryl remembers, "I had my mind made up that I wanted to stay in Toronto. I was going to outlast this guy (Imlach). I didn't deserve any of this, I couldn't understand why it was happening to me, but I could overcome it."
Sittler was represented by Alan Eagleson, a lawyer and agent who never saw eye to eye with Ballard or Imlach. Relations were strained to the point that Sittler took a pair of scissors to the "C" on his sweater before a game in late 1979 to protest, among other things, the trade of Lanny McDonald to the Colorado Rockies. Ballard then threatened to lock Sittler out before the beginning of the next season. The two men resolved some of their differences and Sittler returned as captain, but it was a tenuous reconciliation. Midway through the 1981-82 season, Sittler went AWOL and demanded a trade. He was depressed and worn out from his battles with management in Toronto.


On January 20, 1982, Gerry McNamara, who had replaced Imlach as the team's general manager, called Sittler and informed him that he had been traded to the Philadelphia Flyers, a one-time nemesis but a team that nonetheless had a great deal of respect for Sittler.

After recovering from the nasty divorce with the Leafs, Sittler had a great season in 1982-83, netting 83 points and a spot in the All-Star Game.On the day he was to be named captain of the Flyers Draryl was shocked when Philadelphia traded him to the Detroit Red Wings before the 1984-85 season.

Unsure if he wanted to continue and move his family to yet another city, Sittler refused to report for five days. He did play one yr with Detroit, though at times he struggled to find a place in the lineup.
He retired after the season. Sittler was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1989. Two years later he returned to the Toronto Maple Leafs, this time working in the club's management in marketing and public relations.

NHL Totals 1096 Games 484 goals, 637 assists 1,121 points.

Playoff Totals 76 29 45 74 137 2nd All-Star Team Centre (1978)


ed belfours Bio



Eddie has shown the economy of movement that even a cobra would envy. The Eagle has had great career numbers he has always used his ability and competitive nature to get the job done. Fundamently sound Belfour was an agreesive goalkeep who used his entire body to stop the puck.He stays deep in the net relying on his uncanny reflexes to get the job done.His unconventional style serves him well. Is acrobatic and extremely difficult to beat down low. While he doesn't always see a lot of rubber, he remains focused and ready when called upon to make a key save.

Eddie "The Eagle" Belfour broke into the nhl as a rookie during the 1990 -91 NHL season. He had impressive numbers 43 victories in 74 games (both rookie records), 2.47 GAA & 4 shutouts. He won the Calder Memorial Trophy, Vezina Trophy and the William M. Jennings. He was also nominated for the Hart Memorial Trophy as the league's most valuable player, unprecedented at that time for a goaltender and rookie He would win the Vezina Trophy again in 1993 and the Jennings Trophy in 1993, 1995, and 1999.

Edddie has had one of the best careers by a goalie in nhl history winning over 450 career nhl games while tallying 75 career shutouts

On Jul 2, 02, The Leafs Ed signed as a free agent. In his first season with his new club, he had a 2.26 GAA & won a franchise-record 37 games & helped the team finish 2nd in the NE Division. He also notched his 400 th career victory that season.

In 03-04, he posted a 34-19-6 record in 59 games & the Leafs finished fifth overall in the league standings.Ed also recorded a personal best 10 shutouts.

During the lockout Ed had to undergo a 2nd back surgery. When the 05-06 season began ed's play was less the stellar. Though he did give an occasional great outing he often wasn't up to the challenge. At the end of the 05-06 season he re-injured his back and under went a 3rd back operation

On Nov 28, 2005, Belfour won his 447th career NHL game, moving him into a tie with Terry Sawchuk for 2nd place in career wins. Ed made 34 saves in the 2-1 win over the Florida Panthers. On Dec 19, 2005, Eddie Belfour moved past Sawchuk with a 9-6 win over the New York Islanders at the Air Canada Centre.

To date Eddie has 484 career wins! And he has played 963 regular season games.He may add to these totals at the end of the season once he is finished playing in europe because on August 27, 2007, it was announced that Belfour will play with Leksands IF in the Swedish second division

EagleBelfour
09-25-2007, 09:49 AM
:leafs select

Darryl Sittler C

Surprise after surprise!

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 09:53 AM
:leafs select

Darryl Sittler C
How long did it take for you to make up your mind on that one, LL? No-brainer pick.

Eagle, great pick with Johnson. Definitely the best defenceman available. We would have picked him, but the Bentley-to-Bentley thing was too good to ignore.

EagleBelfour
09-25-2007, 10:01 AM
How long did it take for you to make up your mind on that one, LL? No-brainer pick.

Eagle, great pick with Johnson. Definitely the best defenceman available. We would have picked him, but the Bentley-to-Bentley thing was too good to ignore.

Good thing you didn't, as my backup plan was a good notch under Tom Johnson.

I'm very pleased with my first pairing of Laperriere-Johnson. They will work great together. I would even go as far to say that they're the best ''bang for the buck'' defensive combo of the draft, with Lapperiere taken a #104 and Johnson #127.

Wisent
09-25-2007, 10:15 AM
Not feeling well with haviong no goalie at this point and afraid other start to pick their back ups soon, Dubai bites in the sour apple and picks
Lorne "Gump" Worsley, one of the (few?) nice characters in goal.
And don´t be afraid, Gumper, I am going to build a better team than those Rangers you played for. ;)

VanIslander
09-25-2007, 10:17 AM
I totally believe that Adam Oates and a still undrafted centre are higher in all-time ranking than the two centres I just drafted. But my team didn't need slower, softer passers who like to set up clean plays. No, I wanted fast, hard hitting, to the wall, forechecking and crease crashing sweat until you bleed kind of guys and two were available within the ballpark of worth of Oates & co.

I have only seen one better passer ever than Oates and he was great in the face-off circle.

He is re-united with Brett Hull in Aurora. Instant chemistry, the passer and the finisher. Good job.

EagleBelfour
09-25-2007, 10:21 AM
He is re-united with Brett Hull in Aurora. Instant chemistry, the passer and the finisher. Good job.

Totally agree, your team going to look a lot better thabn last draft I assume.

raleh
09-25-2007, 10:28 AM
I totally believe that Adam Oates and a still undrafted centre are higher in all-time ranking than the two centres I just drafted. But my team didn't need slower, softer passers who like to set up clean plays. No, I wanted fast, hard hitting, to the wall, forechecking and crease crashing sweat until you bleed kind of guys and two were available within the ballpark of worth of Oates & co.

I have only seen one better passer ever than Oates and he was great in the face-off circle.

He is re-united with Brett Hull in Aurora. Instant chemistry, the passer and the finisher. Good job.

Comparing peak to peak I'll take Gilmour or Lindros over Oates. I don' t think I'm the only one, but that's not what we're doing here.

Having said that, Arrbez is his division leader now. He'll have the highest scoring team in the league and a defense anchored by Chelios.

Nice pickin' Arrbez!

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 10:41 AM
Did anyone receive a PM from seventieslord about his pick?

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 10:53 AM
the_hockey_guy18

is on the clock

did he leave a list with anyone?
No, he's not. seventieslord is on the clock, then it's Hockey_Guy's turn. 70s usually comes on line late in the morning or early in the afternoon (using MST), so he should be around within an hour or two.

VanIslander
09-25-2007, 10:59 AM
131 seventieslord - Regina Wildhearts -
132 The_Hockey_Guy18 - Dartmouth Subways -
133 LapierreSports - Montreal Wanderers
I expected a slow down here. Two of them have used entire time windows.

The good thing is seventieslord has been around alot lately and The Hockey Guy has that pick via trade so the odds of waiting an entire time window is lessened.

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 11:30 AM
If someone misses their timeslot for a 3rd time could we assign them a co-GM? I'm getting blue balls here waiting for my selection.

ck26
09-25-2007, 11:59 AM
If someone misses their timeslot for a 3rd time could we assign them a co-GM? I'm getting blue balls here waiting for my selection.I'd be all for this or replacement. Chump06 has been a pretty active observer ...

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 12:04 PM
The Regina Wildhearts are proud to select early goal-scoring phenom Cy Denneny. More to come later.

Thanks for your patience, guys.

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 12:09 PM
The Regina Wildhearts are proud to select early goal-scoring phenom Cy Denneny. More to come later.

Thanks for your patience, guys.
Ogopogo would be proud of you, 70s. And Denneny's a solid pick. Not big, but high-end skill and lots of guts. One of the best LW's left on the board.

I'm not a fan of a replacement, unless a guy is using up his entire window on every pick, and just comes across as a pretty crummy guy with a bad attitude. An appointed replacement (chump, pavel [although he said he's helping with another entry], or even a veteran lurker like human_atombomb) wouldn't be a problem. But be warned: co-GMs really only work when they are in constant communication.

Hockey_Guy's access problems have come late in the day, not during midday. Same with Lappi. (Last night might have been the latest he's ever been on HF). So I expect these picks to go fairly quick.

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 12:11 PM
The Regina Wildhearts are proud to select early goal-scoring phenom Cy Denneny. More to come later.

Thanks for your patience, guys.

No worries, you were only on the clock for a couple of hours.

MXD
09-25-2007, 12:33 PM
Sorry for the waiting, I sent this trade to VanIslander and MXD to confirm it from me; seems none of them have connect yet today.

We didn't took any chance with this pick, as we thought he was clearly the best defenseman available at this time. With the 127th pick in the All-Time Draft, the Detroit Falcons select a great offensive defenseman with a great transition game. An effortless skater with good puckhandling and passing abilities, he has all the qualities to anchor the Falcons PP and PK unit. A partner of young Jacques Laperriere later in his career, the Falcons proudly select defenseman Tom Johnson.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/members/splash/P197003S.jpg

Stanley Cup (1953, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960)
First All-Star Team Defense (1959)
James Norris Memorial Trophy (1959)
Second All-Star Team Defense (1956)
Inducted into the Hall of Fame (1970)

My warning to you, from last draft : DON'T COUNT on Johnson to score goals! He was great in 1959, but remains largely unproven when it comes down to offensive. Playing with Doug Harvey didn't help him, however. Pretty much why I didn't selected him with my Quackenbush pick. The best 2nd D-Men ever, could be a low-end #1 guy with his skill set, but unproven. IMO, the best D-Men selected since I picked Quackenbush.

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 12:59 PM
Didn't see this till now. Happy Birthday Wisent and Nalyd!

:party::bb:

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 01:02 PM
Didn't see this till now. Happy Birthday Wisent and Nalyd!

:party::bb:
Agreed. Have a good one, both of you guys. Wiser, have a few German beers for me.

Wisent
09-25-2007, 01:04 PM
Thank you both, already had a few Altenmünster with me and my better half (gonna drink a few for you as well ;)). And happy Birthday to you as well Nalyd. Coincidence, same taste in hockey players, same birthday ;)

The_Human_Atombomb
09-25-2007, 01:07 PM
An appointed replacement (chump, pavel [although he said he's helping with another entry], or even a veteran lurker like human_atombomb) wouldn't be a problem. But be warned: co-GMs really only work when they are in constant communication.


Thanks for even bringing up my name, but as of now, I am still far away from being an adequate judge of talent (especially pre-70ies) to be a worthy co-manager to a gm here.

But still excited about all the information I can gather here. Keep up the good work, it's fun also for people directly not involved.

Oh, and Happy Birthday Nalyd and Wisent (represent our country well ;) )

Wisent
09-25-2007, 01:10 PM
Oh, and before I forgert, I have to go to Brussels tomorrow, I will be back on Friday. I don´t know if I have access to the internet there. Does someone have a solution? If it is just one pick I can send a shortlist but if there are several Ii have to see how the draft develops. Just skip me if I don´t answer in the first six hours of my timewindow unless someone has a better solution. I will check tonight several times.

nik jr
09-25-2007, 01:10 PM
Happy Birthday Wisent and Nalyd!

Wisent
09-25-2007, 01:11 PM
Thanks for even bringing up my name, but as of now, I am still far away from being an adequate judge of talent (especially pre-70ies) to be a worthy co-manager to a gm here.

But still excited about all the information I can gather here. Keep up the good work, it's fun also for people directly not involved.

Oh, and Happy Birthday Nalyd and Wisent (represent our country well ;) )

Thanks, a good representation would mean for me not an exit in the first round (plus I always draft "den Schlacks", if you know what I mean).

arrbez
09-25-2007, 01:14 PM
arrbez picks

C Adam Oates

Thanks for making the pick for me LL,


The Aurora Tigers are happy to select one of the greatest playmakers and most underrated players in NHL history. Never the fastest guy on the ice, but he was usually the smartest:

Adam Oates

Oates led the league in assists 3 times, and was top 5 on six other occaisions. He is the only player to center three different 50 goal scorers, not to mention two 50-in-50 guys. Despite a late start in the league, Oates had fantastic longevity. At the age of 39 he led the league in assists with only 66 games played, owning that title for the second straight season. He is 6th alltime in assists, and his assist-per-game ratio trails only Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux.

On top of his offensive prowess, Oates was excellent defensively and in the faceoff circle, and he finished as high as 4th in Selke voting. He was relied on heavily to kill penalties, and the go-to guy in key defensive zone faceoffs.

But most importantly, Adam Oates and Brett Hull were made for each other. While Oates may not be the best player available, his chemistry with Hull was something I couldn't pass up. With Oates centering him from 1990-1993, Brett Hull recorded 228 goals in 231 games, making him BY FAR the most dominant goal scorer in the league over this span. In their 25 playoff games together Hull recorded 24 goals and 40 points, while Oates had 25 assists and 34 points.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2365/hullandoatesrc9.jpg

BlueBleeder
09-25-2007, 01:26 PM
Looking to trade down my 5th to a 6th.

Wisent
09-25-2007, 01:29 PM
Thanks for making the pick for me LL,


The Aurora Tigers are happy to select one of the greatest playmakers and most underrated players in NHL history. Never the fastest guy on the ice, but he was usually the smartest:

Adam Oates

Oates led the league in assists 3 times, and was top 5 on six other occaisions. He is the only player to center three different 50 goal scorers, not to mention two 50-in-50 guys. Despite a late start in the league, Oates had fantastic longevity. At the age of 39 he led the league in assists with only 66 games played, owning that title for the second straight season. He is 6th alltime in assists, and his assist-per-game ratio trails only Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux.

On top of his offensive prowess, Oates was excellent defensively and in the faceoff circle, and he finished as high as 4th in Selke voting. He was relied on heavily to kill penalties, and the go-to guy in key defensive zone faceoffs.

But most importantly, Adam Oates and Brett Hull were made for each other. While Oates may not be the best player available, his chemistry with Hull was something I couldn't pass up. With Oates centering him from 1990-1993, Brett Hull recorded 228 goals in 231 games, making him BY FAR the most dominant goal scorer in the league over this span. In their 25 playoff games together Hull recorded 24 goals and 40 points, while Oates had 25 assists and 34 points.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2365/hullandoatesrc9.jpg

Oh oh here she comes, look out boy she'll chew you up. Oh oh here she comes, she's a man-eater.

arrbez
09-25-2007, 01:32 PM
Comparing peak to peak I'll take Gilmour or Lindros over Oates. I don' t think I'm the only one, but that's not what we're doing here.

I'd absolutely take Lindros's peak over Oates (as well as pretty much anyone drafted since round 2). Gilmour's peak vs. Oates is a toss up for me, Gilmour had that fire that you love to see in a player, but Oates was better offensively.

There's still a couple centres out there that I might rate higher than Oates, but Oates was the guy I needed to play with Brett Hull. Hull's one of those interesting players who, despite being a ridiculously talented scorer, needs a specific kind of guy to play with. He was a 50 goal guy without Oates, and a 70+ goal guy with him.

Wisent
09-25-2007, 01:34 PM
I'd absolutely take Lindros's peak over Oates (as well as pretty much anyone drafted since round 2). Gilmour's peak vs. Oates is a toss up for me, Gilmour had that fire that you love to see in a player, but Oates was better offensively.

There's still a couple centres out there that I might rate higher than Oates, but Oates was the guy I needed to play with Brett Hull. Hull's one of those interesting players who, despite being a ridiculously talented scorer, needs a specific kind of guy to play with. He was a 50 goal guy without Oates, and a 70+ goal guy with him.

If we just take the peak of players, Lindros might be a top30 guy or so (I didn´t really check).

MXD
09-25-2007, 01:38 PM
If we just take the peak of players, Lindros might be a top30 guy or so (I didn´t really check).

If we just take the peak of players, Cam Neely would be the 3rd RW selected. And anybody who've read that thread knows what I think of Neely. BTW, great to see Mikhailov picked ahead of Neely this time.

Wisent
09-25-2007, 01:40 PM
We are probably in the minority here but for me Mikhailov is better than Neely as well. But I wouldn´t have picked him if Holecek would have still been available.

The_Hockey_Guy18
09-25-2007, 01:40 PM
Never received a PM, but I'll make my pick anyway.

The Dartmouth Subways are pleased to select, right winger from Helsinki, Finland... "The Finnish Flash", Teemu Selanne.

ck26
09-25-2007, 01:50 PM
Never received a PM, but I'll make my pick anyway.

The Dartmouth Subways are pleased to select, right winger from Helsinki, Finland... "The Finnish Flash", Teemu Selanne.Only the second best Finnish Flash right-winger from Helsinki, but a nice pick nonetheless ...

Nalyd Psycho
09-25-2007, 01:54 PM
Thank you all for the kind wishes.

Thank you both, already had a few Altenmünster with me and my better half (gonna drink a few for you as well ;)). And happy Birthday to you as well Nalyd. Coincidence, same taste in hockey players, same birthday ;)
Maybe the ability to respect the achievements of Jiri Holocek is astrological or something. :)

_______________________________________

Reuniting Hull & Oates, excellent move. There's times that chemistry is overrated, and times where it can't be valued high enough. This is one of those times that chemistry is well worth it.

Malone-Hawerchuk-Selanne. That's a line with a lot of pop. Nice job.

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 02:20 PM
Hey fellas, just thought I'd clear a couple of things up: I only missed my first pick because I was not expecting the ATD to get underway so fast. I signed up and then before I knew it we were 23 picks in and I had been skipped. I think I've been better since then. But, I haven't been the perfect solid citizen that I hoped to be. Life has been busy and I haven't sent any PM's to the guys after me. Just this morning when I picked Denneny and last night when I picked Boucher, I had no time to do anything but write 30 words and run. This morning I was even late for work! (probably because I stayed up so late defending Boucher - thanks doctordark!) but I knew it had to be my turn by then so I logged on to do the bare minimum. You should see less and less of this from me in the future, and more real write ups for my picks as well as reminder PMs.

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 02:45 PM
I'll be checking in periodically tonight. However, if I'm not here who can I PM my picks to?

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 02:46 PM
I should be around for the next three hours. Be sure to include a third player in case Lappy takes one of the guys you want.

Roger's Pancreas*
09-25-2007, 02:57 PM
I'll be checking in periodically tonight. However, if I'm not here who can I PM my picks to?<---

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 03:17 PM
1st of all, i thought undrafted players were not to be mentioned.

cleghorn was indeed hart runner-up for 2 of those norris boucher was awarded, but i don't think that necessarily means he was better those seasons. (the early hart voting seems to me to be much more focused on value to his team. i think that's why dmen got hugely more votes in the early years than they do now.)
doesn't matter a lot in this case because i think most everyone thinks cleghorn is better than boucher. in a 1933 newspaper article cited in another thread by Hockey Outsider, shore was being compared to the best dmen ever, and cleghorn was 1 of them.

i think clancy was given 10 (5 1st, 5 2nd) all star selections and 2 retroactive norris trophies. that same 1933 article says clancy was better defensively than shore.
that makes me wonder about shore. i don't think he was at all bad defensively, but i haven't read really anything about shore's great defense (however, i have read that contemporaries like cleghorn, boucher, clancy and others were very good defensively), it seems he was known for his offensive ability and legendary toughness (and for being a major league a-hole).


You raise good points re: Shore. For me, it's the hart trophies. But on the other hand, the award was voted for literally and not based on "best player in the league" like it is today.

as for mentioning undrafted players.... right. Totally let those slip last night. I will go edit them out. Although I have a feeling no one minds that I mentioned Rico Fata.

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 03:24 PM
I think George Boucher is an excellent talent and a serviceable #1 defenseman in the right system. Good pick. He's another guy who Nalyd and I discussed as a potential first-pairing Seal, but in the end his lack of high-end size/strength (especially with Clancy already in the fold) and speed are issues, though his skill is unquestionable.

I would add that, in general, I have a problem with offensive defensemen who are not, in fact, good skaters. This group includes Boucher, Conacher and other undrafteds. High-skilled defensemen who can control the play are valuable, but if the legs can't hold up their end of the bargain, a defenseman's potential for offensive contribution is somewhat limited and you kind of have to build a team around covering their weaknesses if you expect to get the most out of them. If it for this reason that I cannot classify guys like Boucher and Conacher as "rushing defensemen". They have high-end offensive skills, but if you can't skate, you can't really rush. This applies to any team, though perhaps moreso to an attack spearheaded by Gretzky and Bathgate, who are good skaters and make plays in transition as well as any players in history.

Of course, I believe that the same goes for any area of weakness. Clancy is the complete package offensively and quite skillful and tenacious in his own zone, but he is small and needs a partner who can cover for him. Fortunately he has one, and it was precisely for his completeness that we targeted Vasiliev. Truly complete players are quite rare outside of the 2nd round, so it's not really criticism to point out that certain guys lack in one area or in another.

One more note on Clancy: his first seven peak seasons (23-30) in the NHL were played before the advent of postseason all-star selections. He was selected to the 1st or 2nd team all-star squads (twice each) during all four of his final peak seasons, from 31-34. How many more all-star selections might Clancy have had? A very good argument can be made that he'd have had a run of perhaps ten or eleven straight seasons on the postseason all-star teams, putting him on the same level as the great Earl Seibert. That's how good Clancy was, and it wasn't just for his offense.

What ifs are only worth so much, but I think it's worth noting that the King was a perrenial all-star when such things existed, even though he was actually on the tail end of his career.

I think those retroactive all-star selections for Clancy are worth as much as the real ones. Clancy is the man. Where would the Leafs franchise had been circa 1945 had it not had his excellent play and attitude?

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 03:28 PM
I'd question exactly how close they were. Cleghorn won 5 retro Norrises (including NHA) to Boucher's 4, and that discounts the fact that Peg had 2 Hart runner-ups during years Boucher won (which would seem to fly in the face of 2 of Boucher's awards). He was by contemporary accounts faster, more mobile, and more physical than Boucher.

It's also worth mentioning that in the Trail of the Stanley Cup, Boucher wasn't one of the 4 nominated defensemen for the 1893-1926 All-Star Team, while Cleghorn made the nomination and the final cut. Boucher was a great defenseman, but he's no Peg, and he's not that close. That said, I like him very much where you got him.

In regards to Blackjack's offense, I'm not trying to make him out to be Paul Coffey by any stretch, but he isn't completely inept in the opposition's zone. I don't know how the adjusted stats are tabulated, but I'd be willing to bet that they didn't take into account that Stewart missed two high-scoring war years that Seibert didn't, or that Goodfellow played forward for the first half of his career.

I'm not saying Stewart is Seibert or Goodfellow's equal on offense, but the chasm isn't as gaping as you make it out to be.


Fair points re: Buck and Clegs.

As for Blackjack, no, I doubt he was inept in the offensive zone. Elite defensive guys rarely are. But that is what adjusted points are all about, to make it a more reasonable comparison. Those high scoring war years would have been adjusted down for him like they were for Seibert. And I can't vouch for how many adjuted points Goodfellow got at each poisition but your point is well-made.

MXD
09-25-2007, 03:35 PM
Fair points re: Buck and Clegs.

As for Blackjack, no, I doubt he was inept in the offensive zone. Elite defensive guys rarely are. But that is what adjusted points are all about, to make it a more reasonable comparison. Those high scoring war years would have been adjusted down for him like they were for Seibert. And I can't vouch for how many adjuted points Goodfellow got at each poisition but your point is well-made.

It's worth noting that Butch Bouchard got a 35 pts season (in 50 games!) in 44-45, while Black Jack got something like 11 pts. While it doesn't say A LOT about Bouchard offensive potential, it does reveal that Black Jack had none.

LapierreSports
09-25-2007, 03:50 PM
Well...this is a hard pick. Johnson, Konstantinov and Selanne are gone and were guys that were on my list.

I will go a little off the board here and select one of the greatest goal scorer of all time and clear HOF'er in my mind, Pavel Bure

LapierreSports
09-25-2007, 03:51 PM
It's worth noting that Butch Bouchard got a 35 pts season (in 50 games!) in 44-45, while Black Jack got something like 11 pts. While it doesn't say A LOT about Bouchard offensive potential, it does reveal that Black Jack had none.

No, you mean it says a lot about Butch's offensive potential ;)

MXD
09-25-2007, 03:54 PM
No, you mean it says a lot about Butch's offensive potential ;)

In an ATD, notching that much points in 44-45 with so little afterwards means the guy either didn't have stellar offensive talents, or that his team scored a lot, which is likely what happend that year. And it PROBABLY means both.
I think Stewart is a total non-factor offensively, but can provoke turnovers for sure...

And anyways.. Who's drafting Emile Bouchard for his offensive output, let alone Black Jack's...

ck26
09-25-2007, 03:55 PM
I will go a little off the board here and select one of the greatest goal scorer of all time and clear HOF'er in my mind, Pavel BurePicking a guy with 60, 60, 59 and 58 goals isn't really "going off the board" in my mind ... Joe Sakic will appreciate the help.

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 03:56 PM
I have Middleton's picks. Gwinnett continues to build their impressive array of offensive stars with dangerous offensive blue-liner Walter "Babe" Pratt, and ultra-smart, ultra-classy centre Igor Larionov.

ck26
09-25-2007, 03:58 PM
I have Middleton's picks. Gwinnett continues to build their impressive array of offensive stars with dangerous offensive blue-liner Walter "Babe" Pratt, and ultra-smart, ultra-classy centre Igor Larionov.As long as we're picking ultra-smart, ultra-classy players and offensive blue liners, I'll have Scarborough, Ontario great Lawrence Thomas Murphy.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/LegendsMember.jsp?mem=p200403&page=bio#photo

Flin Flon is on the clock.

MXD
09-25-2007, 03:59 PM
I have Middleton's picks. Gwinnett continues to build their impressive array of offensive stars with dangerous offensive blue-liner Walter "Babe" Pratt, and ultra-smart, ultra-classy centre Igor Larionov.

Playoffs?

Roger's Pancreas*
09-25-2007, 04:07 PM
The Bombers round out their top defensive pairing with Alexei Kasatonov.

BB has been pm'd.

LapierreSports
09-25-2007, 04:09 PM
Picking a guy with 60, 60, 59 and 58 goals isn't really "going off the board" in my mind ... Joe Sakic will appreciate the help.

Happy to have him on board. I was just hoping to land Johnson, Boucher or Konstantinov instead. I did not want to draft Larry Murphy...nothing against him tough.

ck26
09-25-2007, 04:09 PM
The Bombers round out their top defensive pairing with Alexei Kasatonov.My 2nd choice after Murphy. Great player.

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 04:10 PM
My 2nd choice after Murphy. Great player.
Yeah. And he knows a thing or two about his defence partner, and the RW on the top line.

LapierreSports
09-25-2007, 04:17 PM
Thanks for making the pick for me LL,


The Aurora Tigers are happy to select one of the greatest playmakers and most underrated players in NHL history. Never the fastest guy on the ice, but he was usually the smartest:

Adam Oates

Oates led the league in assists 3 times, and was top 5 on six other occaisions. He is the only player to center three different 50 goal scorers, not to mention two 50-in-50 guys. Despite a late start in the league, Oates had fantastic longevity. At the age of 39 he led the league in assists with only 66 games played, owning that title for the second straight season. He is 6th alltime in assists, and his assist-per-game ratio trails only Orr, Gretzky, and Lemieux.

On top of his offensive prowess, Oates was excellent defensively and in the faceoff circle, and he finished as high as 4th in Selke voting. He was relied on heavily to kill penalties, and the go-to guy in key defensive zone faceoffs.

But most importantly, Adam Oates and Brett Hull were made for each other. While Oates may not be the best player available, his chemistry with Hull was something I couldn't pass up. With Oates centering him from 1990-1993, Brett Hull recorded 228 goals in 231 games, making him BY FAR the most dominant goal scorer in the league over this span. In their 25 playoff games together Hull recorded 24 goals and 40 points, while Oates had 25 assists and 34 points.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2365/hullandoatesrc9.jpg


hahahaha...nice pic. Good job on reuniting those guys. That will get extra points from me come voting time.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper
09-25-2007, 04:34 PM
Hey fellas, just thought I'd clear a couple of things up: I only missed my first pick because I was not expecting the ATD to get underway so fast. I signed up and then before I knew it we were 23 picks in and I had been skipped. I think I've been better since then. But, I haven't been the perfect solid citizen that I hoped to be. Life has been busy and I haven't sent any PM's to the guys after me. Just this morning when I picked Denneny and last night when I picked Boucher, I had no time to do anything but write 30 words and run. This morning I was even late for work! (probably because I stayed up so late defending Boucher - thanks doctordark!) but I knew it had to be my turn by then so I logged on to do the bare minimum. You should see less and less of this from me in the future, and more real write ups for my picks as well as reminder PMs.

I wouldn't worry about it. You seem like a good egg - if occasionally slightly delusional. :sarcasm:

And I didn't mean to be critical of the Boucher pick, because I actually think he's a great selection where you got him. You might be surprised to know that I'm about the most easy-going guy you could ever meet, provided conversation steers clear of hockey or music.

Evil Speaker
09-25-2007, 04:44 PM
I'm not saying Stewart is Seibert or Goodfellow's equal on offense, but the chasm isn't as gaping as you make it out to be.

I'd say it's about the size of the grand canyon. Stewart only averaged 11.6 points per season in the 1940's. Nobody els that received an all-star team nod was even close to that low (especially Goodfellow and Seibert). Stewart was one of the best defensive defeneman and best hitters ever, thats why he got all-star teams nods. He did what all defensemen were supposed to do during his era, nullify the opponent.

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 04:44 PM
Interesting to note that Boucher wasn't even picked in a couple of drafts. Same with Lionel Conacher. Just goes to show how far we've come in the last couple of years.

pnep's really big on Boucher. Boucher does extremely well on pnep's HHOF Monitor rankings, so he'd always pick Boucher way earlier than anyone had previously. Until now.

I'm more concerned about size for defencemen than forwards, but no doubt in my mind that Clancy and Boucher can be impact players in this draft.

I really don't care about retroactive Conn Smythes, Norris Trophies, Selke's or any of that stuff. They're a nice, noteworthy thing, but don't put much stock into them. We don't know how those voters would have voted in the early 20s. I look at early Hart voting, and there's no way a couple of those guys would get considered with the modern standards. Trying to fit our modern standards, our worldview of excellence, with how they defined best defenceman or best defensive forward, is a mistake. They viewed the best defenceman in a far different light than we do. And frankly, in a lot of cases, they would be more accurate.

EagleBelfour
09-25-2007, 04:50 PM
I have Middleton's picks. Gwinnett continues to build their impressive array of offensive stars with dangerous offensive blue-liner Walter "Babe" Pratt, and ultra-smart, ultra-classy centre Igor Larionov.

Good selection on Pratt. He was my pick if Tom Johnson didn't fall to me (well, I forced him to fall to me :) )

pitseleh
09-25-2007, 05:10 PM
Nice to see we're continuing at a good pace, maybe I'll even be lucky and get to pick tonight.

And Happy Birthday to Nalyd and Wisent.

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 05:13 PM
Interesting to note that Boucher wasn't even picked in a couple of drafts. Same with Lionel Conacher. Just goes to show how far we've come in the last couple of years.

pnep's really big on Boucher. Boucher does extremely well on pnep's HHOF Monitor rankings, so he'd always pick Boucher way earlier than anyone had previously. Until now.

I'm more concerned about size for defencemen than forwards, but no doubt in my mind that Clancy and Boucher can be impact players in this draft.

I really don't care about retroactive Conn Smythes, Norris Trophies, Selke's or any of that stuff. They're a nice, noteworthy thing, but don't put much stock into them. We don't know how those voters would have voted in the early 20s. I look at early Hart voting, and there's no way a couple of those guys would get considered with the modern standards. Trying to fit our modern standards, our worldview of excellence, with how they defined best defenceman or best defensive forward, is a mistake. They viewed the best defenceman in a far different light than we do. And frankly, in a lot of cases, they would be more accurate.

it's worth noting, though, that those retroactive awards tend to mimic the voting in those days, where you could have Cleghorn runner-up for the Hart and Boucher winning the Norris.

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 05:16 PM
I wouldn't worry about it. You seem like a good egg - if occasionally slightly delusional. :sarcasm:

And I didn't mean to be critical of the Boucher pick, because I actually think he's a great selection where you got him. You might be surprised to know that I'm about the most easy-going guy you could ever meet, provided conversation steers clear of hockey or music.

music, hey? Are you one of those "Most music on the radio and MTV sucks and any self-respecting music fan shouldn't be such a sheep and listen to whatever flavour of the week is being rammed down their throats and should instead take the time to discover bands online and via word of mouth of other people with similar tastes, and the talent/entertainment level of a band is only minimally related to the amount of videos they have produced and albums they have sold" people?

If so, good, cause so am I.

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 05:28 PM
I have Middleton's picks. Gwinnett continues to build their impressive array of offensive stars with dangerous offensive blue-liner Walter "Babe" Pratt, and ultra-smart, ultra-classy centre Igor Larionov.

Thanks for taking care of that GBC

Playoffs?

15 championships in 26 years, not too shabby

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 05:39 PM
Now for the official announcements. The Gwinnett Gladiators are proud to select, from Stony Mountain, Manitoba

Walter "Babe" Pratt, D

http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/LegendsOfHockey/members/splash/P196608S.jpg

Sticking with our motto of 'the best defense is a good offense', the Gladiators are overwhelmed that Pratt fell into our laps. At 6'3" and 215 lbs (~6'6" and 245lbs in modern day terms), Pratt was a behemoth on and off the ice. The predecessor of Bobby Orr and Paul Coffey, Pratt won the Hart Trophy in 1944 and were it not for his bigger than life lifestyle, would have went on to greater accolades. Regardless, his massive talent was only matched by his massive penchant for a self destructive lifestyle.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper
09-25-2007, 05:50 PM
Fair points re: Buck and Clegs.

As for Blackjack, no, I doubt he was inept in the offensive zone. Elite defensive guys rarely are. But that is what adjusted points are all about, to make it a more reasonable comparison. Those high scoring war years would have been adjusted down for him like they were for Seibert. And I can't vouch for how many adjuted points Goodfellow got at each poisition but your point is well-made.

It's worth noting that Butch Bouchard got a 35 pts season (in 50 games!) in 44-45, while Black Jack got something like 11 pts. While it doesn't say A LOT about Bouchard offensive potential, it does reveal that Black Jack had none.

Jack Stewart didn't play in the NHL for '43-'44 or '44-'45, so it'd be mighty difficult for him to get any points or have them adjusted for those years.

If you eliminate those seasons from Bouchard's statistics, Stewart actually had a higher single season point total in his best year than Bouchard, and outscored him every year from the end of the war to the end of his Detroit years. Stewart also tied for the team lead in scoring among defensemen when the Wings won the '43 Cup, and got it outright when they won in 1950.

In Stewart's offensive prime (ha), between '45-'46 and '49-'50, he was in the top 10 in league scoring for defensemen 3 times (as high as 6th) and finished just outside twice. He isn't outstanding offensively, naturally, but he can contribute some.

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 05:51 PM
With our second of back-to-back picks, the Gwinnett Gladiators are proud to select, from Voskresensk, Russia, the glue of the KLM line and one of the greatest players to come out of the Soviet system

Igor Larionov, C

http://www.hhweb.com/images/2002cup/Igor_Larionov_With_Cup_JPG_small1.jpg

Winning seems to come naturally to Larionov. On the international stage Larionov won two golds (1984, 1988) and one bronze (2002) in the Olympics, and four golds (1982, 1983, 1986, 1989), one silver (1987), and one bronze (1985) in the World Championships. As one of five members of the Red Wings' "Russian Five" unit in the mid-1990s, he was a critical component in the Red Wings 3 Stanley Cups. The consummate teammate and leader, Larionov is recognized as a father figure in Russian hockey and his reputation is impeccable. Larionov's quiet cool will undoubtedly help the Gwinnett Gladiators in their quest for the Cup.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper
09-25-2007, 05:55 PM
music, hey? Are you one of those "Most music on the radio and MTV sucks and any self-respecting music fan shouldn't be such a sheep and listen to whatever flavour of the week is being rammed down their throats and should instead take the time to discover bands online and via word of mouth of other people with similar tastes, and the talent/entertainment level of a band is only minimally related to the amount of videos they have produced and albums they have sold" people?

If so, good, cause so am I.

Pretty much sums it up. Truth be told, at present, I only own one album past 1983.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper
09-25-2007, 06:11 PM
I'd say it's about the size of the grand canyon. Stewart only averaged 11.6 points per season in the 1940's. Nobody els that received an all-star team nod was even close to that low (especially Goodfellow and Seibert). Stewart was one of the best defensive defeneman and best hitters ever, thats why he got all-star teams nods. He did what all defensemen were supposed to do during his era, nullify the opponent.

Look at the numbers of the All-Star Team defensemen from the mid-late 40s. Stewart's numbers (around 15 points-per-season) were not egregious.

His points-per-season during the 40s is skewed because he had only just begun in the late-30s and wasn't going to put up gaudy numbers right away, and he missed 2 very high scoring war years.

Like I said, 3 top 10 finishes in defensemen scoring , 2 just outside in the late 40s.

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 06:16 PM
Pretty much sums it up. Truth be told, at present, I only own one album past 1983.

I'd be curious to know which one album out of the millions produced since 1983 is worthy of being owned by you!

Rick Middleton
09-25-2007, 06:17 PM
Can we save this thread for ATD talk only? Mmmkay?

arrbez
09-25-2007, 06:41 PM
I'd be curious to know which one album out of the millions produced since 1983 is worthy of being owned by you!

http://www.villagevoice.com/blogs/statusainthood/DJ%20Jazzy%20Jeff.jpg

Evil Speaker
09-25-2007, 07:08 PM
Look at the numbers of the All-Star Team defensemen from the mid-late 40s. Stewart's numbers (around 15 points-per-season) were not egregious.

His points-per-season during the 40s is skewed because he had only just begun in the late-30s and wasn't going to put up gaudy numbers right away, and he missed 2 very high scoring war years.

Like I said, 3 top 10 finishes in defensemen scoring , 2 just outside in the late 40s.



Jack Stewart certainly wasn't inept offensively, talent was there but it's not that important, because his job was to guard his own zone. If he is given the green light to rush the puck, I’m sure he'd do fine, but it wouldn’t be wise to make your best defensive defenseman lose focus of his primary job. If Jack is always in position your chances of wining obviously increase.

Anyway, back to my original point.. This doesn't mean the gap between him and Goodfellow/Seibert wasn't big. Goodfellow played 7 healthy seasons as a defensemen (none during war years) and finished top 4 in scoring 5 times (1,1,1,2,4) he averaged 23.1 points in the 30's and 26.8 in the 40's. Earl Seibert consistently placed in the top 6 among defensemen through the 30's and 40's (2,3,3,4,4,4,5,6), after the first two years of his career he probably finished top 10 every year he was healthy.
Jack Stewart played 8 seasons in the 1940's and managed to crack the top 5 once where he tied for 5th in 1948. The gap offensively between these players is evident.

The_Hockey_Guy18
09-25-2007, 07:10 PM
So, while we're waiting for BlueBleeder, why don't we have a look at the completed first line forwards, see how they match up. Feel free to add any I may have missed.

Boston Bruins
F.Mahovlich-S.Abel-B.Geoffrion

Dartmouth Subways
J.Malone-D.Hawerchuk-T.Selanne

Halifax RCAF
D.Bentley-M.Bentley-C.Neely

Portage la Prairie Plains
T.Lindsay-E.Lach-B.Cook

Victoria Cougars
T.Blake-C.Taylor-G.Lafleur

Castors de Sherbrooke
D.Moore-H.Richard-M.Richard

Dallas Blackhawks
B.Jackson-B.Trottier-J.Kurri

Thoughts?

VanIslander
09-25-2007, 07:45 PM
Boston Bruins
F.Mahovlich-S.Abel-B.Geoffrion

Dartmouth Subways
J.Malone-D.Hawerchuk-T.Selanne

Castors de Sherbrooke
D.Moore-H.Richard-M.Richard
These lines look great. :clap:

Halifax RCAF
D.Bentley-M.Bentley-C.Neely

Portage la Prairie Plains
T.Lindsay-E.Lach-B.Cook
Neely and Lindsay just look out of place. Can Neely draw physical play away from his linemates? If Max is man-handled then will Doug and Cam tic tac toe? I think a more fluid, entirely pass oriented line of small speedies might be the order, as whenever the opposition goes for one of them, the puck can be dished off to another. Neely has puck skills but is more of a bull along the boards and carrying the puck down low and toward the net kind of player. Lindsay played with Mr. Elbows and Bootnose on a dominating, aggressive line; Lach, however, had trouble with physical play (but certainly had determination, and can match Abel's playmaking ability) and Cook was fast, not tough like Howe. I just can't visualize the style of play of this line. Ted just looks out of place. Though he could do a lot of the board work.

Victoria Cougars
T.Blake-C.Taylor-G.Lafleur
This is totally an Elmer Lach kind of wing set. Instead, Cyclone will be speedily puck hogging? This is a line of three deadly puck-surging finishers. Interesting. And damn hard to defend against. Unless there is no passing chemistry. I'd put a Lach type there. I suspect Cyclone would rather have wingers Sergei Samsonov and Ray Whitney (neither were drafted in atd7 nor minor league, so mentioning them should be alright) or at least someone to dig out the puck in the corners.

Castors de Sherbrooke
D.Moore-H.Richard-M.Richard
:handclap:

Dallas Blackhawks
B.Jackson-B.Trottier-J.Kurri
This is a prototypical second line. That is, the line that goes against opposition's top line, not the offense-only softer line that many teams have had and tried to protect. I can see this line do its business in my sleep.

The_Hockey_Guy18
09-25-2007, 07:57 PM
Neely and Lindsay just look out of place. Can Neely draw physical play away from his linemates? If Max is man-handled then will Doug and Cam tic tac toe? I think a more fluid, entirely pass oriented line of small speedies might be the order, as whenever the opposition goes for one of them, the puck can be dished off to another. Neely has puck skills but is more of a bull along the boards and carrying the puck down low and toward the net kind of player. Lindsay played with Mr. Elbows and Bootnose on a dominating, aggressive line; Lach, however, had trouble with physical play (but certainly had determination, and can match Abel's playmaking ability) and Cook was fast, not tough like Howe. I just can't visualize the style of play of this line. Ted just looks out of place. Though he could do a lot of the board work.

I agree with this statment, although I find Lach looks out of place, more so then Teddy does. Bill could hold his own in the physical department, where as Ted was just an absolute beast. Lach however, like you said, wasn't made for physical play. I could see a player like Bobby Clarke rounding out this line nicely, where as Lach could play with a speedy, scoring line, such as the Blake-Lafleur line.

seventieslord
09-25-2007, 08:33 PM
Who's to say that they aren't going to go for a balanced offense, and have the three guys they've picked so far on two, or even three lines?

Evil Speaker
09-25-2007, 08:38 PM
Nice to see we're continuing at a good pace, maybe I'll even be lucky and get to pick tonight.

Unfortunatley there are one or two guys that always hold us up.

arrbez
09-25-2007, 08:53 PM
who's up now? I've kinda lost track...

The_Hockey_Guy18
09-25-2007, 09:02 PM
BlueBleeder is on the clock. Last activity was 3:59pm Atlantic standard time. Don't know where he's at.

Rowdy Roddy Peeper
09-25-2007, 09:17 PM
I'd be curious to know which one album out of the millions produced since 1983 is worthy of being owned by you!

The Love Below. Not the best since '83, but a personal favorite. If you wanna talk more music, feel free to PM me.

Anyway, back to my original point.. This doesn't mean the gap between him and Goodfellow/Seibert wasn't big. Goodfellow played 7 healthy seasons as a defensemen (none during war years) and finished top 4 in scoring 5 times (1,1,1,2,4) he averaged 23.1 points in the 30's and 26.8 in the 40's. Earl Seibert consistently placed in the top 6 among defensemen through the 30's and 40's (2,3,3,4,4,4,5,6), after the first two years of his career he probably finished top 10 every year he was healthy. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Jack Stewart played 8 seasons in the 1940's and managed to crack the top 5 once where he tied for 5th in 1948. The gap offensively between these players is evident.

I agree that Seibert and Goodfellow are on a different tier than Stewart offensively, but I just wanted to point out that there were other extenuating circumstances that exaggerated the point gap between they and Stewart that adjusted point totals don't consider.

They were distinctly more potent offensively, but not to the degree that context-free career totals suggested.

Neely and Lindsay just look out of place. Can Neely draw physical play away from his linemates? If Max is man-handled then will Doug and Cam tic tac toe? I think a more fluid, entirely pass oriented line of small speedies might be the order, as whenever the opposition goes for one of them, the puck can be dished off to another. Neely has puck skills but is more of a bull along the boards and carrying the puck down low and toward the net kind of player. Lindsay played with Mr. Elbows and Bootnose on a dominating, aggressive line; Lach, however, had trouble with physical play (but certainly had determination, and can match Abel's playmaking ability) and Cook was fast, not tough like Howe. I just can't visualize the style of play of this line. Ted just looks out of place. Though he could do a lot of the board work.

I don't see how Lindsay or Lach are out of place, truthfully. Great lines needn't be comprised of carbon copy players.

All three players (Lindsay, Lach, and Cook) were parts of cohesive, extremely successful lines where each player had his role. Look at it as a modified Punch Line - Lindsay and Blake were both aggressive, rough-and-tumble LWs who can both dish and score. Lach is, well, Lach, distributing and playing a vital defensive role. Cook and Rocket were both the primary triggermen, but Cook has a rougher, more well-rounded game but with less native, unequaled goal instinct (a fantastic scorer - but nobody's Richard from the blue line in). If you think Cook wasn't tough like Howe, I have to vehemently disagree. They played quite similar games, to the point where Howe was called the next Bill Cook. I'll find some quotes if you like.

I think Lach's toughness is getting underrated too. He wasn't huge and couldn't manhandle people, but he had that never-say-die spirit and wasn't above giving a sneaky elbow or butt-end to get the job done. I've never heard anything about him having trouble with physical play.

ck26
09-25-2007, 09:39 PM
Jackson / Trottier / Kurri is a prototypical second line. That is, the line that goes against opposition's top line, not the offense-only softer line that many teams have had and tried to protect. I can see this line do its business in my sleep.If anyone ever expects me to field a more offensively-minded first line than this, then they're probably going to be disappointed ... fourteen years of watching the Stars play has taught me a thing or two about being responsible over every inch of the ice. Before this game is done, every GM in the league will see this line do its business in their sleep ... and then wake up screaming.

I'm not sure how I feel yet about Bentley / Bentley / Neely ... I'm envisioning the Sedins on a line with Keith Tkachuk ... can't think of any really great examples of that working in the NHL lately.

The_Hockey_Guy18
09-25-2007, 09:42 PM
Before this game is done, every GM in the league will see this line do its business in their sleep ... and then wake up screaming.

That is a beautyyy tagline. :clap:

We'll see if the line follows through.

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 10:01 PM
I think a lot of people underestimate the Bentley's. Are they big? No. But we've seen time after time, over the last 20 years, players who were five-foot-eight or less (keep in mind a lot of scouting reports/media guides exaggerate by an inch or two) have dominated the league, won awards, been named to all-star teams. Max wasn't big, he wasn't physical, but he was aggressive and fearless. Like we said earlier, guts are more important than size. Despite his aggressive style, and despite playing in the rough and tumble Original 6, he only missed nine games from 1946 to 1952. You aren't going to "manhandle" Max Bentley.

Doug Bentley wasn't as aggressive as Max, but he was very fast, and very smart. And very good defensively. Solid penalty killer. Not physical. But that's why Neely is there: finish off the chances, dominate the corners and in front of the net, and take care of anyone's failed attempts at liberties on the Bentley's.

I like the Cook-Lindsay-Lach line. I have no qualms about Lach's game. Solid all-round player. Not physical, but not afraid, and not intimidated.

Frightened Inmate #2
09-25-2007, 10:41 PM
I'm not sure how I feel yet about Bentley / Bentley / Neely ... I'm envisioning the Sedins on a line with Keith Tkachuk ... can't think of any really great examples of that working in the NHL lately.

The Sedin's are suprisingly strong players who work great along the boards and are able to put up with a suprising amount of punishment... the Bentleys on the other hand were notorious for being flakes and if memory serves me correct one of them walked out on the Maple Leafs (that could be wrong but I am sure I read it somewhere that Max left the leafs to go back to Saskatchewan - and that Smythe I think had to go and drag him back for lack of a better term)....

pavel13
09-25-2007, 10:52 PM
There's a little too much talk about undrafted players.

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 10:55 PM
The Sedin's are suprisingly strong players who work great along the boards and are able to put up with a suprising amount of punishment... the Bentleys on the other hand were notorious for being flakes and if memory serves me correct one of them walked out on the Maple Leafs (that could be wrong but I am sure I read it somewhere that Max left the leafs to go back to Saskatchewan - and that Smythe I think had to go and drag him back for lack of a better term)....
Actually, according to Brian MacFarlane's "More It Happened in Hockey," Doug Bentley was basically sent home by the Leafs. Wasn't ready for the NHL at that stage in his career. Smythe even belittled Bentley, Elmer Lach and one other player (who did little in the show). Smythe learned to regret those words.

To say that Neely with the Bentley's is akin to the Sedin's with (not drafted yet) is pretty insulting. The Bentley's are two of the top 100 ever (Max is top 40-45 and Doug is top 75). All three are HHOFers. (Not drafted yet) is a perennial playoff underachiever and a member of the Hall of Very Good, and the Sedins will be perennial minor league draft guys, at best. The Sedins couldn't carry the Bentley's jock strap.

MXD
09-25-2007, 10:56 PM
Whoooaaa... A bit slow tonight. I hope I won't pick thursday. 'cause thursay is actually the day where I get drunk for this semester.

And while I'm quite happy at my history of drunk picking (Mikhailov for last draft past Top-100 and ...well.. I didn't picked them, but I opened a laptop, went to a coffeeshop, only to find that Belfour called my Moore/Richard picks, but I had a friend write a reminder on his laptop to draft Richard and Moore (...seriously). So I guess I would not have been wrong. But I could do stuff like typing Doug "Kilger" Gilmour instead of Killer, Brett Lindros, or draft Ebbie Johnson and Tom Goodfellow. Or draft Jack Johnson to sing the nationnal anthem instead of playing defense.

pavel13
09-25-2007, 11:17 PM
Actually, according to Brian MacFarlane's "More It Happened in Hockey," Doug Bentley was basically sent home by the Leafs. Wasn't ready for the NHL at that stage in his career. Smythe even belittled Bentley, Elmer Lach and one other player (who did little in the show). Smythe learned to regret those words.

To say that Neely with the Bentley's is akin to the Sedin's with (not drafted yet) is pretty insulting. The Bentley's are two of the top 100 ever (Max is top 40-45 and Doug is top 75). All three are HHOFers. (Not drafted yet) is a perennial playoff underachiever and a member of the Hall of Very Good, and the Sedins will be perennial minor league draft guys, at best. The Sedins couldn't carry the Bentley's jock strap.

But in today's NHL versus an all-time draft, it's a fairly similar situation. The twins are among the top offensive players in the league, but clearly not the best. Same goes for the Bentley brothers. Of course the Bentleys are in a completely different league. But in the context of an all-time draft, I don't see a huge difference.

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 11:21 PM
But in today's NHL versus an all-time draft, it's a fairly similar situation. The twins are among the top offensive players in the league, but clearly not the best. Same goes for the Bentley brothers. Of course the Bentleys are in a completely different league. But in the context of an all-time draft, I don't see a huge difference.
There isn't a huge difference? The Bentley's were superstars. They're top 100 players of all-time. Max Bentley might be the best stick-handler ever. Doug Bentley was a marvellous offensive player. They have a combined three Art Ross Trophies. Max Bentley was over a point-per-game combined during Toronto's three Cup championships that he was a part of. Doug Bentley never had a chance to dominate a playoff.

The Sedins are 85-90 point players. That's their top-end. And I'm a die-hard Canucks fan. Love the Twins, but this is as good as it gets. They're very good offensive players, but I don't think they'll ever be top 10 scorers in the NHL. The Bentley's were the very best that the NHL has to offer.

There is a great chasm between the Bentleys and the Sedins. Anyone with a clue about hockey history would know that.

pavel13
09-25-2007, 11:27 PM
There isn't a huge difference? The Bentley's were superstars. They're top 100 players of all-time. Max Bentley might be the best stick-handler ever. Doug Bentley was a marvellous offensive player. They have a combined three Art Ross Trophies. Max Bentley was over a point-per-game combined during Toronto's three Cup championships that he was a part of. Doug Bentley never had a chance to dominate a playoff.

The Sedins are 85-90 point players. That's their top-end. And I'm a die-hard Canucks fan. Love the Twins, but this is as good as it gets. They're very good offensive players, but I don't think they'll ever be top 10 scorers in the NHL. The Bentley's were the very best that the NHL has to offer.

There is a great chasm between the Bentleys and the Sedins. Anyone with a clue about hockey history would know that.

You completely missed the point. The Bentleys aren't playing against their regular NHL competition. They are playing against all-time greats. Compared to all-time greats, the Bentleys are not superstars. They are still very good offensive players, but they are not in the upper echelon when compared to Gretzky, Howe, Esposito, Mikita, etc. Just like the Sedins aren't in the upper echelon of offensive players now with the players ahead of them. I'm not saying the Bentleys are not better than the Sedins. I don't know how you misunderstood that. "But in the context of an all-time draft, I don't see a huge difference."

God Bless Canada
09-25-2007, 11:56 PM
You completely missed the point. The Bentleys aren't playing against their regular NHL competition. They are playing against all-time greats. Compared to all-time greats, the Bentleys are not superstars. They are still very good offensive players, but they are not in the upper echelon when compared to Gretzky, Howe, Esposito, Mikita, etc. Just like the Sedins aren't in the upper echelon of offensive players now with the players ahead of them. I'm not saying the Bentleys are not better than the Sedins. I don't know how you misunderstood that. "But in the context of an all-time draft, I don't see a huge difference."
And I think you underrate the Bentley's. Define "upper echelon." Top 10? Top 20? If that's your definition, they aren't upper echelon. But Max Bentley is a top 40 player of all-time, IMO, and Doug Bentley is unquestionably one of the top 10 LWs of all-time. Max Bentley was the No. 11 C on our list. I would say that they are superstars.

The Bentley's are playing against all-time greats. But they're used to that - they dominated against all-time greats. They dominated against guys like Blake Jack Stewart and Emile Bouchard and Bill Quackenbush and Kenny Reardon - some of the best defensive defencemen to ever play.

Personnel is important to determining a champion. But finding the right mix is more important. Especially in a 28-team draft. The days of being able to land the best forward ever, three of the top 20 defencemen ever, and a money-in-the-bank goalie, are over.

pit's team in the last draft wouldn't have had a "superstar" by your standards. He didn't have an all-time top 10 defenceman or a top 20 forward. (I really like Newsy Lalonde, but top 20 all-time forward? I'll say no). But he had depth. He had outstanding character. And he had that great mix on his team. You took one look at his team, and you saw a team that absolutely had it all.

pavel13
09-26-2007, 12:11 AM
And I think you underrate the Bentley's. Define "upper echelon." Top 10? Top 20? If that's your definition, they aren't upper echelon. But Max Bentley is a top 40 player of all-time, IMO, and Doug Bentley is unquestionably one of the top 10 LWs of all-time. Max Bentley was the No. 11 C on our list. I would say that they are superstars.

The Bentley's are playing against all-time greats. But they're used to that - they dominated against all-time greats. They dominated against guys like Blake Jack Stewart and Emile Bouchard and Bill Quackenbush and Kenny Reardon - some of the best defensive defencemen to ever play.

The Bentleys were not dominant against a team FULL of all-time greats, much less 27 teams. The 10th or 11th best player in a league (that's what the all-time draft is) at a time are not superstars. There are maybe three to five at each position. In the all-time draft, there are about five goalies, four defensemen, three or four right wings, three or four centers, and two left wings.

I think the undrafted twins in question are certainly top 100 players, and in the context of the league that each group is playing in, I don't think the difference is huge. Obviously the absolute difference is big, though. The Bentleys are HHOFers. The twins are not.

pappyline
09-26-2007, 12:21 AM
And I think you underrate the Bentley's. Define "upper echelon." Top 10? Top 20? If that's your definition, they aren't upper echelon. But Max Bentley is a top 40 player of all-time, IMO, and Doug Bentley is unquestionably one of the top 10 LWs of all-time. Max Bentley was the No. 11 C on our list. I would say that they are superstars.

The Bentley's are playing against all-time greats. But they're used to that - they dominated against all-time greats. They dominated against guys like Blake Jack Stewart and Emile Bouchard and Bill Quackenbush and Kenny Reardon - some of the best defensive defencemen to ever play.

Personnel is important to determining a champion. But finding the right mix is more important. Especially in a 28-team draft. The days of being able to land the best forward ever, three of the top 20 defencemen ever, and a money-in-the-bank goalie, are over.

pit's team in the last draft wouldn't have had a "superstar" by your standards. He didn't have an all-time top 10 defenceman or a top 20 forward. (I really like Newsy Lalonde, but top 20 all-time forward? I'll say no). But he had depth. He had outstanding character. And he had that great mix on his team. You took one look at his team, and you saw a team that absolutely had it all.
And Pitseleh's first line LW was Doug Bentley. Everv draft there seems to be some Bentley bashing. I had Max in all of my prevuous 3 drafts & Doug in 2 of them. Seemed to be always defending them. It was grattifying in ATD 7 to see a team with Doug as 1st line LW make the final. I saw some footage of Max from the 51 all star game & he has superstar written all over him. Fast elusive % aggressive, No wonder he won 2 AR's & a hart. In Toronto , he was the power play QB on those great cup teams.

Leaf Lander
09-26-2007, 12:22 AM
thesedins careers have just started lets hope they have half the careers of those afore mentioned hofers and if they are better then that awsome:)

shawnmullin
09-26-2007, 01:04 AM
Frankly I agree with GBC that the Bentleys are being under-estimated and I believe Cam would sure clear a lot of space.

BlueBleeder
09-26-2007, 01:17 AM
The St Louis Eagles are pleased to select 17 time 30 goal scorer ... RW... Mike Gartner.

EagleBelfour
09-26-2007, 02:57 AM
IMPORTANT, READ! ok, not THAT important, but read it!

- I actually have pick #266. I would like to move this pick into the #185-#210 pick range (all part of my masterplan muahahaha!).

- I would be ready to TRADE DOWN with pick #153, #164 and/or #188 (and any pick below them).

It seems a bit complicated, but read it again, because it might be just worth it. I would probably be ready to give more than I should if the right deal come along.

Thanks for the interess!

Nalyd Psycho
09-26-2007, 03:06 AM
IMPORTANT, READ! ok, not THAT important, but read it!

- I actually have pick #266. I would like to move this pick into the #185-#210 pick range (all part of my masterplan muahahaha!).

- I would be ready to TRADE DOWN with pick #153, #164 and/or #188 (and any pick below them).

It seems a bit complicated, but read it again, because it might be just worth it. I would probably be ready to give more than I should if the right deal come along.

Thanks for the interess!

I don't really understand? If you want a pick in the 185-210 range, why would you trade 188?

If your looking to trade 153 and 266 for two picks in between those two, that may be of interest...

EagleBelfour
09-26-2007, 03:08 AM
I don't really understand? If you want a pick in the 185-210 range, why would you trade 188?

If your looking to trade 153 and 266 for two picks in between those two, that may be of interest...

It's all part of my masterplan! Yea it seems a bit confused on my part, but actually it's all very well thought. And for your proposal, I'll look at that and PM you.

VanIslander
09-26-2007, 04:00 AM
It's all part of my masterplan!
:darth: ... :gargoyle: ... :wbrew:

Nalyd Psycho
09-26-2007, 04:06 AM
My masterplan is to not draft Handzus.

EagleBelfour
09-26-2007, 04:10 AM
My masterplan is to not draft Handzus.

What? I thought you were trading up for him?

nik jr
09-26-2007, 04:57 AM
seattle selects norm ullman.

imo, 1 of the most underrated players of all time. twice led the playoffs in scoring, great 2-way C, excellent forechecker, great playmaker, once led NHL in goals, was hart runner-up and made 1st all star C ahead of mikita and beliveau, and was still a top 10 scorer even without howe.

imo, ullman is better than delvecchio and is even with abel.

Nalyd Psycho
09-26-2007, 05:14 AM
Great pick. Pairing him with Howe is a smart value pick.

VanIslander
09-26-2007, 05:19 AM
140 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets ON THE CLOCK

Round #6
141 vancityluongo & Tricolore#20 - Winnipeg Jets ON THE CLOCK
142 nik jr & Agent Dale Cooper - Seattle Thunderbirds
143 BlueBleeder - St. Louis Eagles

please leave a list nik jr, agent dale, bluebleeder... because end of rounds tend to turn around quickly

Frightened Inmate #2
09-26-2007, 06:49 AM
Actually, according to Brian MacFarlane's "More It Happened in Hockey," Doug Bentley was basically sent home by the Leafs. Wasn't ready for the NHL at that stage in his career. Smythe even belittled Bentley, Elmer Lach and one other player (who did little in the show). Smythe learned to regret those words.

To say that Neely with the Bentley's is akin to the Sedin's with (not drafted yet) is pretty insulting. The Bentley's are two of the top 100 ever (Max is top 40-45 and Doug is top 75). All three are HHOFers. (Not drafted yet) is a perennial playoff underachiever and a member of the Hall of Very Good, and the Sedins will be perennial minor league draft guys, at best. The Sedins couldn't carry the Bentley's jock strap.

In terms of style of play do you really believe that there is no difference between the Sedin's and the Bentley's... re-read my post as I wasn't refering to quality of hockey player but rather as to the style of play in which they played - the Bentley's seemed like smaller (even by then standards) fast playmaking forwards... the Sedin's on the other hand have made a career out of being plodding forwards who excel in the corners and in the cycle.... two completely different styles of players and if you attempted to make either of them change their game it would make them lesser players - the Sedins' wouldn't have the speed/skillset to play a really uptempo game and the Bentley's put in the corners would see a dramatic drop in their effectiveness.

VanIslander
09-26-2007, 06:53 AM
...the Sedin's on the other hand have made a career out of...
they aren't that old! :tvhappy:

They've just had their 6th season...

MXD
09-26-2007, 07:58 AM
My masterplan is to not draft Handzus.

....That's a kindergardenplan, not a Master plan...

Rick Middleton
09-26-2007, 09:31 AM
I'll be away this weekend, so I'll need to PM someone my picks. Any takers?