Atd#8-ML Sir Montagu Allan Semi-Final: #2 New York Americans vs. #3 McGill Redmen

VanIslander
02-11-2008, 07:05 PM
Sir Montagu Allan Division Playoffs



New York Americans

coach: Frank Patrick
captain: Hobey Baker
alternates: Boris Mayorov, Jeff Beukeboom
team MVP: Hobey Baker

Boris Mayorov (A) - Billy Taylor - Rick Kehoe
Alex Shibicky - Bill Thoms - Harry Oliver
Louis Berlinquette - Bruce MacGregor - Anders Kallur
Ethan Moreau - Stephane Yelle - Bobby Gould
Shawn Burr

Hobey Baker (C) - Battleship Leduc
Jeff Brown - Jeff Beukeboom (A)
Bert Marshall - Robyn Regehr
Bert McCaffrey

Paddy Moran
Henrik Lundqvist



vs.



McGill Redmen

coach: Viktor Tikhonov
assistant coach: Ron Wilson
captain: Doug Young
alternates: Kelly Kisio, Red Sullivan
team MVP: Dubbie Bowie

Ven Alexandrov - Dubbie Bowie - Blair Russel
Steve Payne - Billy Reay - Real Cloutier
Johnny Wilson - Kelly Kisio (A) - Paul MacLean
Reggie Fleming - Red Sullivan (A) - Yevgeny Babich
Andrei Khomutov

Moose Goheen - Doug Young (C)
Vasili Pervukhin - Zinetula Bilyaletdinov
Brendan Witt - Fredrik Olausson
Alex Smith

Nikolai Khabibulin
Don Beaupre



-------------------

VanIslander
02-11-2008, 07:05 PM
New York Americans

PP1: Mayorov - MacGregor - Kehoe - Baker - Taylor
PP2: Shibicky - Thoms - Oliver - Brown - Leduc

PK1: Yelle - Gould - Marshall - Beukeboom
PK2: MacGregor - Moreau - Leduc - Regehr

vs.

McGill Redmen

PP1: Cloutier - Bowie - Russel - Goheen - Olausson
PP2: Alexandrov - Kisio - MacLean - Pervukhin - Bilyaletdinov

PK1: Wilson - Kisio - Witt - Young
PK2: Fleming - Russel - Pervukhin - Bilyaletdinov

VanIslander
02-11-2008, 07:06 PM
Hobey Baker vs, Moose Goheen

Boris Mayorov vs. Venjamin Alexandrov



Interesting!

chaosrevolver
02-11-2008, 07:51 PM
What a matchup:amazed:

More comments later tonight or tommorow.

God Bless Canada
02-13-2008, 10:22 PM
Normally VanI and pit are contenders for the ATD Golden Babble Award. Eerily quiet from both sides in what should be the hardest-fought series of the second round.

ck26
02-14-2008, 04:29 AM
This one looks fairly even, but I have a couple things:

Kelly Kisio and Johnny Wilson look way out of place on a 3rd line.

Ethan Moreau looks even more out of place on any team. He was clearly drafted for leadership and all the intangible stuff, but I'm still unimpressed. His scoring starts slowly and then tails off in the playoffs. His career highlight ('06) he got 3 points in 21 games.

Billy Taylor looks like a huge advantage over Dubbie Bowie.

Love both Cloutier and Oliver as 2nd line scorers.

Nikolai Khabibulin > Paddy Moran

I think the Redmen have a huge problem that I'd like to hear an answer for: Viktor Tikhonov. McGill's two "best" players -- 1D Goheen and 1C Bowie -- were both amateurs who played in an era when coaching was ... let's just say a little more laid back. A team full of players who played (and thrived) under a Tikhonov or a Mike Keenan would really make that a nice coaching selection. But your two best players played in an era when the coach was often just another player. I mentioned Real Cloutier earlier as a nice 2nd line player, but maybe not on this team ... the guy quit early as it was ... what are the chances he gets sick of the coach and retires after game 2?

VanIslander
02-14-2008, 05:08 AM
Kelly Kisio and Johnny Wilson look way out of place on a 3rd line.

Billy Taylor looks like a huge advantage over Dubbie Bowie.
:huh: I can't make sense of these comments.

I think the Redmen have a huge problem that I'd like to hear an answer for: Viktor Tikhonov. McGill's two "best" players -- 1D Goheen and 1C Bowie -- were both amateurs who played in an era when coaching was ... let's just say a little more laid back. A team full of players who played (and thrived) under a Tikhonov or a Mike Keenan would really make that a nice coaching selection. But your two best players played in an era when the coach was often just another player.
Re-read their write-ups. They are full-tilt hard workers. Bowie was a never stop force.

I mentioned Real Cloutier earlier as a nice 2nd line player, but maybe not on this team ... the guy quit early as it was ... what are the chances he gets sick of the coach and retires after game 2?
Considering the gaudy numbers and championships he was involved in in his early years I think it's only a factor later in his career. Even late in his career he averaged much more than one point per NHL game played. So only his last two part seasons worry me and there is the better-than-Bobrov do everything, two-way Babich to move up, or Soviet MVP main draftee Khumotov to slip in at right wing.

The Redmen right wing is by far deeper in talent than any other team in the ML draft. It is one of the team's greatest strengths. Cloutier has been much covered for.

By the way, Cloutier's line-mates are Payne (highest point per POSTseason playoff game average of any player in the draft) and Reay (ultiple cup winning clutch performer and two-way skilled). That line is playoff savvy clearly with or without the right wing.

ck26
02-14-2008, 05:39 AM
:huh: I can't make sense of these comments.Holy ****, neither can I. Let's try this again with the other winger, MacLean. The guy scored a ton. Nobody puts up 34 goals 7 times and can still play defense, not even in the 80's. All I see in his bio is goal-scoring. The offense never tails off ... when did he become a solid checker?

I again throw the "W T F" flag at your bio for Kelly Kisio ... nobody is both a "power play and penalty kill specialist" (it's physically impossible to be a uniquely offensive and uniquely defensive player). We've said in the past that Trottier and Yzerman can't be both as their careers evolved, so I'm struggling with Kisio. The Kisio I remember was a nice goal-scorer, but wasn't a star two-way center by any stretch of the imagination.

It's not necessarily a bad thing to have 3 scoring lines and less defense ... just making observations.

To elaborate on Bowie ... the guy was an amateur. How far back in time do we go before making the "it was a different game" argument? 100 years is too far for a 1st liner. Just my take. God bless the 1898 Montreal Victorias, but as a 1st line center? For Viktor Tikhonov?

VanIslander
02-14-2008, 06:15 AM
MacLean. The guy scored a ton. Nobody puts up 34 goals 7 times and can still play defense, not even in the 80's. All I see in his bio is goal-scoring.
His 324 NHL goals, 673 points in only 719 NHL games, 97 powerplay goals, 24 game winners and seven hat tricks are gaudy numbers deserving of main draft consideration as a scorer, yes.

But MacLean also had 968 PIM in those 719 games, six 100+ PIM seasons. :hit: He was a tough, physical player, one of the moustache warrior generation. I can't find a link that mentions his backchecking, but I can't be the only one recalling him backchecking players to the ice.

http://hfboards.com/imagehosting/thum_2144847b42e133a660.jpg (http://hfboards.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12916)

Right now he is the assistant coach for the Red Wings responsible for the penalty kill (a great pk), so that suggests he knows something about team defense, though I admit his role on the Redmen third line is to keep opposing forwards honest (their d-men less likely to pinch, fearing him on transition), as he will burn the Americans for goals some games as well as get physical, disrupting NY's flow.

McGill's third line has a checking-first two-way talented left winger, a type-a personality checking, fast skating, passing two-way pivot, and a physical scoring right winger. The team comes with three offensive lines with backchecking talent (Russel, Reay, Kisio, Wilson) on those lines. And Redmen assistant coach is defense-minded Ron Wilson.

I again throw the "W T F" flag at your bio for Kelly Kisio ... nobody is both a "power play and penalty kill specialist" (it's physically impossible to be a uniquely offensive and uniquely defensive player). We've said in the past that Trottier and Yzerman can't be both as their careers evolved, so I'm struggling with Kisio.
Forget the word 'specialist' as it's throwing you: he was skilled on the pp and pk, call him what you may. he was a two-way centrte best on the second line, but third line in an all-time context, first line on so-so NHL teams. His "speed, exceptional hockey sense, and strong character" made him a force everytime he was on the ice. He was never invisible, your ideal lunchbucket blue collar worker except he always looked like he was on cocaine: had an extra gear and he rode it hard.

VanIslander
02-14-2008, 06:24 AM
How far back in time do we go before making the "it was a different game" argument? 100 years is too far for a 1st liner. Just my take. God bless the 1898 Montreal Victorias, but as a 1st line center?
Then you must be disgusted by the Phoenix Roadrunners first line: Fred Scanlan - Harry Trihey (C) - Arthur Farrell.

(You do realize that Bowie is McGill's team MVP, so other g.m.s obviously appreciate his role on the Redmen.)

I don't play the 'it's a different game' game because then where to cut off? Judge each by the era they are in. A player deemed one of the greatest of the first half of the century might not cut mustard with you because of the era but this is an all-time draft and is about honouring hockey's history more than meeting individual's assessments of hypothetical hockey games. The team building aspect of the draft is supposed to be a fun sidebit, not the main purpose of the draft. It was first and foremost a history draft. I think some g.m.s aren't thinking that way any more. I was one of those who lamented our move off of the history board, though I understand why it was done. I constantly learn new things about the history of hockey by participating in these drafts and as long as that continues I'll find it worthwhile to be a part of it.

pitseleh
02-14-2008, 05:08 PM
Duh, I forgot to comment on this. Best of luck VanIslander.

Advantages that I think can give us the series:

- Moran over Khabibulin. Moran is easily a top-10 goaltender from the first 1/3rd of hockey history and probably settles in just before the top-5. Khabibulin is a solid starter, but I've never considered him a superstar goaltender.

- Second-line scoring. I'd say Cloutier and Oliver are pretty close in terms of offensive talent but I'd say that Shibicky/Thoms are a better duo than Payne/Reay. Both Payne and Shibicky are strong goal scorers, but Shibicky managed to put up better relative numbers. Reay brings more to the defensive side of the game, but Thoms was an outstanding scorer that makes our second line more dangerous.

- Third line shut-down ability. I'm a big Johnny Wilson fan but Kisio/MacLean while good two-way players aren't exactly show stoppers. Berlinquette was one of the, if not the, top defensive forward in the late 10's/early 20's while Kallur was an important defensive cog on the Islanders' dynasty.

- Toughness on defense. Outside of Payne, the Redmen's top-6 is very small. With players like Leduc, Beukeboom, Regehr and Marshall playing physical steady defense, I think they will have some difficulty in fighting through into the heavy traffic areas.

VanIslander
02-14-2008, 05:44 PM
Khabibulin is a solid starter, but I've never considered him a superstar goaltender.
Was named Best Goalie of the 2002 Olympics, one of few NHL netminders to get four shutouts in a single playoffs (when won Stanley Cup in Tampa), has a significant jump up in save percentage in the playoffs: NHL playoff career average of .922%
The Bulin Wall was at his best when it mattered most.

Second-line scoring. I'd say Cloutier and Oliver are pretty close in terms of offensive talent but I'd say that Shibicky/Thoms are a better duo than Payne/Reay.
In the regular season, yes, but not in the playoffs! Payne and Reay are tremendous playoff performers. Payne was called a playoff superstar, scored 70 points in 71 NHL playoff games, living up to the potential he didn't always show in the regular season. Reay was a key performer at every level, one of only two players to ever win the Memorial Cup (scored the cup winning goal), Allan Cup (centered the top line) and Stanley Cup (twice with the Canadiens, and tying Richard in playoff scoring one other postseason, leading all Habs another season, despite being the second line centre behind Lach and playing as "a solid two-way pivot, he used speed and guile to stop the efforts of the best in the league while still managing to pick up points").

Third line shut-down ability. I'm a big Johnny Wilson fan but Kisio/MacLean while good two-way players aren't exactly show stoppers. Berlinquette was one of the, if not the, top defensive forward in the late 10's/early 20's while Kallur was an important defensive cog on the Islanders' dynasty.
The Americans' third line has better shutdown ability as a whole (which line gonna key on? Probably Bowie's, leaving playoff performing Reay/Payne less covered), though you underestimate Kisio, and the Redmen's two-way threat over three lines.

Toughness on defense.
The Redmen defensemen are just as big and tough, at least 4 out of 7. Moose Goheen was huge for his time and loved to rush the puck but also gave bone-crunching hits. Cowboy Young captained a couple of stanley cups as a defensive defenseman, Brendan Witt is as good as any defensive defenseman in the contemporary era, and...

http://hfboards.com/imagehosting/thum_2144847b4d0117b05d.jpg (http://hfboards.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12945)
While the blueline duo of Pervukhin - Bilyaletdinov (pictured above) aren't very tall, they are athletic, have to be to play on the top Soviet international team in arguably the best era of Soviet hockey (they played together on every Tikhonov USSR team between 1978-1987, winning the Canada Cup, Olympics, you name it.) They must be tough in the disciplined, hard working sense.

And the Redmen will likely ice Alex Smith the seventh defenseman and sit a fourth liner to add more toughness to the blueline:

http://hfboards.com/imagehosting/thum_2144847b4d17c4868a.jpg (http://hfboards.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=12946)

And the Redmen fourth line duo of Reggie Fleming (as tough as ANY in his era) And George Sullivan (superpest) will be all over the Americans forwards in every zone. Dang tough.

VanIslander
02-14-2008, 06:03 PM
Best of luck to you too pitseleh.

pitseleh
02-14-2008, 06:21 PM
Was named Best Goalie of the 2002 Olympics, one of few NHL netminders to get four shutouts in a single playoffs (when won Stanley Cup in Tampa), has a significant jump up in save percentage in the playoffs: NHL playoff career average of .922%
The Bulin Wall was at his best when it mattered most.

Fair enough, but Moran also carried his team on his back for two Stanley Cup victories. Aside from those years, he was pretty much the only reason his teams were not continually the worst in the league.


In the regular season, yes, but not in the playoffs! Payne and Reay are tremendous playoff performers. Payne was called a playoff superstar, scored 70 points in 71 NHL playoff games, living up to the potential he didn't always show in the regular season. Reay was a key performer at every level, one of only two players to ever win the Memorial Cup (scored the cup winning goal), Allan Cup (centered the top line) and Stanley Cup (twice with the Canadiens, and tying Richard in playoff scoring one other postseason, leading all Habs another season, despite being the second line centre behind Lach and playing as "a solid two-way pivot, he used speed and guile to stop the efforts of the best in the league while still managing to pick up points").

Payne had one huge playoff run (29 points in 19 games) then was around his regular season career average otherwise. Shibicky was able to maintain his production through the playoffs in an era that was characterized by dramatic production drops in the post-season (just look at the Kraut line in the playoffs). He even came back on a broken ankle to be a key cog in the last two games of the Rangers' Stanley Cup win in 1940.

Reay was a solid playoff performer, but I don't think he differentiated himself enough as a playoff performer to offset the regular season advantage that Thoms has on him (led the league in goals, multiple top-10 scorer).


The Americans' third line has better shutdown ability as a whole (which line gonna key on? Probably Bowie's, leaving playoff performing Reay/Payne less covered), though you underestimate Kisio, and the Redmen's two-way threat over three lines.

Yes, you'll likely see Berlinquette's line get most of their playing time against Dubbie Bowie's line.


The Redmen defensemen are just as big and tough, at least 4 out of 7.

Sorry, didn't mean to insinuate that our defense was tougher than yours. I was just trying to point out that your top-6 forwards will likely have more difficulty against our defense than ours will against yours.

Though Payne was big, Cloutier is average and Bowie, Russel (I believe) and Reay are small. I don't have any info on Alexandrov.

On the flip side, Taylor, Thoms and Shibicky were all bigger players for their eras, Mayorov was average but very tough, Kehoe was average sized while Oliver was small.

Because of that, I think that our team will better be able to fight through the brick walls that will be present in front of both of our nets.

VanIslander
02-14-2008, 06:41 PM
Though Payne was big, Cloutier is average and Bowie, Russel (I believe) and Reay are small.
Maclean was big too, and while he's on the third line, the Redmen have a three-line offense, not two.

Russel and Reay may be shorter than average but they were both renowned for their defensive ability, excellent two-way players who went up against the opposition's top lines, and succeeded, at least in their eras. As such, they should be able to handle abuse in an all-time context, factoring adjustments to deal with your more modern blueliners.

Bowie was undersized and as a centre that isn't such a limitation because he can dish the puck from the perimeter but I do think he is vulnerable to injury when he goes in to score, even though he put up gaudy numbers for a decade without anyone stopping him, so I think the possibility of 'stopping' him are less likely than the possibility of breaking his leg. this is not a player who demonstrated an inability to deal with tough opponents.

Was Mayorov tough? (link?) Alexandrov was dubded Bobrov2 and was the best Soviet player in the early 60's. In the absence of more evidence, let's consider our first line left wingers a wash.

Evil Speaker
02-14-2008, 06:48 PM
Ethan Moreau looks even more out of place on any team. He was clearly drafted for leadership and all the intangible stuff, but I'm still unimpressed. His scoring starts slowly and then tails off in the playoffs. His career highlight ('06) he got 3 points in 21 games.

It doesn't matter what his offensive stats were in the playoffs. The playoffs are a time when you have to face the league's best, so teams must give specific roles to their players. Guys like Moreau are used to provide leadership and grit and to slowdown opponents top players. nothing els. If he's doing that well, then who cares what his offenisve stats look like?

VanIslander
02-14-2008, 06:53 PM
The Americans first line right winger, Kehoe, was a 30-goal scorer in the regular season in a high scoring era and nothing remarkable otherwise, was way down on the depth chart of the Redmen draft list, arguably a worse pick than all five of the Redmen right wingers, especially when it comes to playoff and championship experience, two-way play or individual accomplishments.

Beukeboom as a second pairing d-man and alternate captain is intriguing. I don't know whether to say it's an awful move or a stroke of brilliance. I'll let others decide.

Except for their fourth line and second and third defensive pairings, the New York Americans are a pretty good line-up. Way to go pitseleh. I see why your team was ranked so high in the regular season. It's a decent group.

Though the Redmen have the competitive advantage in the transition game, offensive depth, team chemistry, championship experience and leadership. ;)

Jungosi
02-17-2008, 02:56 AM
A slow start....

in New York. When the first puck dropped it was already clear that both teams were kind of nervous and no one wanted to make the first mistake. It took around 10 minutes for the first real scoring chance. Blair Russel tried to slap it in from about 40ft but Paddy Moran had no trouble in making a save on this one. Shortly after the second period started Boris Mayorov scored on an great individual effort , deking half of the Redmen and the goalie Khabibulin. Most of the people in the building were exspecting a quick awnser by McGill but there was none. New York provided strong team defense to keep the Redmen off the board. Rick Kahoe scored the 2-0 midway through the 3rd and Harry Olliver added the empty-netter.

New York wins 3-0 and lead the series 1-0


Paddy Moran wins game 2

"How the hell are we supposed to score on this guy? He is standing on his ****ing head right now!"

A random quote which describes game 2 pretty much. McGill came out flying after a dissappointing game 1 but Paddy Moran denied every scoring attempt. Shots were 15-4 in favour of McGill after period 1. Period 2 started in similar fashion though the Americans fought back a lot more then they did in period 1. Mayorov destroyed all the effort the Redmen put into scoring their first goal in the series and scored near the end of the 2nd. Battleship Leduc scored the insurance marker.

New York wins 2-0 and leads the series 2-0

VanIslander
02-17-2008, 02:59 AM
Mayorov a star in both games? Geez, the guy isn't even as good as Alexandrov.

Oh well,...

The other aspect (a hot goalie) makes sense.

Congrats pitseleh.

Jungosi
02-17-2008, 03:51 AM
I can only write-up the votes I get VI ;).

McGill starts scoring in a impressive way

"After two games without a goal me and Ron sat together to chance our tactic. We need to take higher risks and employ a harder forecheck in order to win this series."

The Redmen definetly did not disappoint their coach in this game. Billy Reay forced a turnover on the forecheck that got the puck to Real Cloutier who didn't hesitate and scored the Redmen's first goal in three games. Alexandrov and Goheen added two more goals on the powerplay in the 2nd. Billy Taylor ruined Khabibullin shutout late in the third.

"Who cares about the shutout? The important thing is that we won." the goalie stated after the game.

McGill wins 2-1 and trails 1-2 in the series.

We're all even again

"We got too easy on ourselfs after winning the first two games" , said coach Frank Patrick. "In the playoffs not the more skilled team wins , it's the team that works harder."

Hard Work has been a main concern for McGill in the first two games and now it is a main concern for New York. With their new found work ethic McGill dominated the physical aspect of the game. They threw hit after hit got the puck out of the corners and made it pretty dangerous for the Americans to cross their redline. Billy Taylor expirienced that 6 minutes into the game when he go crushed by Young. Kisio scored the go-ahead goal after Moran made a stellar save on MacLean. The pace of the game slowed down quite a bit after the goal. The Redmen did not more than defending their lead against a desolate offensive effort by the Americans.

McGill wins 1-0 and has tied the series at two.

VanIslander
02-17-2008, 05:15 AM
What a rollercoaster ride! Thanks whatever Jungosi. Spreading out the write-ups has added to the suspense.

Jungosi
02-17-2008, 06:30 AM
An easy calculation

If we add the way New York played in the first two games to how the Redmen played lately we should get some great hockey. Neither of the teams did disappoint.

In front of a sellout crowd in New York bow teams really showed what they are made of. The Redmen threw a lot of checks early in the. Doug Young drilled Rick Kehoe into the boards and moments later the Americans were all over him. No fights broke out but the game got pretty rough after that. A strong shift by the Wilson-Kisio-MacLean line gave Dubbie Bowie the opportunity to score the first goal of the game. From then on it was once again a Paddy Moran show. He made several game savers to keep his team in the game. Harry Olliver thanked his goalie for his effort with scoring the tieing goal. The Americans were a leg away from scoring the game winner but Doug Young saved it in Bobby Orr-fashion after Khabibullin was already beaten. But this heroic action by the captain could not win the game for McGill.

Midway through the first OT period Billy Taylor was able to sneak one past Khabibullin and win game 5 for New York.

New York wins 2-1 in OT and leads the series 3-2.

Tragic Heros in game 6

If you ask Brendan Witt which game in his career he would like to forget , he'd probably say "this one". He did an exellent job shutting down the Americans together with his partner Doug Young he formed a rock-solid defensive pair. However the hockey god did not seem to like him. After a fast start with both teams scoring two goals each , the game became a defense-fest extraordinaire. There were only 9 shots combined in period 2. Late in the third it happened : Brendan Witt tried to clear the puck after a shoot in. He passed it up the middle right to Boris Mayorov who scored the series-deciding goal on a confused Khabibullin. The whole arena got quiet and Brendan Witt fell on his knees , realizing what he had done.

New York wins the game 3-2 and the series 4-2.

Congrats to pitseleh!

more later , I really have to leave now.

VanIslander
02-17-2008, 07:42 AM
congrats pitseleh

pitseleh
02-17-2008, 11:24 AM
Thanks VanIslander. You put together a heck of a team (Bowie and Russel were fantastic picks).

Thanks for the write-ups Jungosi, you did a great job with them.

Diving Pokecheck*
02-17-2008, 12:09 PM
ah well.
I would have liked to see a duel of the turn of the century dynasties.