Kub's has plans for the weekend (: [Archive]

mrv52

02-07-2004, 11:32 AM

No? Then who, in your opinion, is? Remember, you said "all-around." Boyle is better offensively, Sarich and Cullimore are better defensively, but only newcomer Sydor is arguably a better "all-around" D-man than Kubina, who has been by far the most consistent blueliner to wear the Bolt this season.

McCabe's having a great year. I agree he should be there. But if you want to gripe, go pick on Nick Boynton.

Sarich, Cullimore and Boyle would be guys I would look at first (not for the All-Star game), however, when looking at TB's D you really have to look at it as a whole. Kubina rounds out the top 4 this year (without factoring in Sydor). I will agree Kubina has improved, but it has only been since about this time last year right? If I recall people were lined up with pitchforks the first half of last year ready to run him out of town. The playoffs changed the perception as well. Lets see where he stands in June.

That said, I am not trying to take away his selection, it has to be kept in context to what the All-Star game is all about, Offense.

I dont get the Boynton thing either.

King of Stankonia

02-07-2004, 11:41 AM

I have nothing really to say here except that finally people are beginning to understand the true power of Kubina.

All will perish . . .

Boltsfan2029

02-07-2004, 11:56 AM

Clearly. Redden became ill on Thursday.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45094-2004Jan24.html (Gonchar to go as 7th D-Man)

from the article:

"Gonchar played in the past three all-star games and his exclusion from this season's team was the cause of much debate within the NHL offices, sources said, with the suggestion emerging that he should be named as a "seventh defenseman" even if Stevens, who is out indefinitely with a concussion, could return"

Your is from St Pete times, mine is from Washington Post. I guess they wash each other out... :)

Neither article mention McCabe.....

And I didn't mention Gonchar...

The remark that McCabe probably turned down an offer to be in the All-Star Game is what I was responding to. The statement was that Kubina was the first player to be considered, therefore, it would appear McCabe wasn't made an offer to turn down.

-Sharon

mrv52

02-07-2004, 01:04 PM

And I didn't mention Gonchar...

The remark that McCabe probably turned down an offer to be in the All-Star Game is what I was responding to. The statement was that Kubina was the first player to be considered, therefore, it would appear McCabe wasn't made an offer to turn down.

-Sharon

Yes, however, the general tone of the discussion was who should and who should not be there. I think it is clear that all three, no matter how strong a rumor the WP article was, that Gonchar, along with Kubina and McCabe would (should?) not be there.

My rebuttal providing the Post article was more directed at the fact that if Gonchar were healthy, Kubina (or McCabe)more than likely would not have been invited even if Rafalski replaced Stevens.

Just to be clear, I have no problem with Kubina being there.

joeminus

02-07-2004, 01:28 PM

Sarich, Cullimore and Boyle would be guys I would look at first (not for the All-Star game) ...

You said "all-around" defenseman. Boyle (offense) and Cullimore (defense) are for the most part one-dimensional. Sarich is still learning to put it all together on a consistent basis. Kubina this season has been an impact player going both ways. Night in, night out.

... however, when looking at TB's D you really have to look at it as a whole.

Agreed.

If I recall people were lined up with pitchforks the first half of last year ready to run him out of town. The playoffs changed the perception as well. Lets see where he stands in June.

I wasn't among the pitchfork-wielding mob, and neither was any other knowledgable Lightning fan. Even as inconsistent as Kubina was last season (very), he was still head-and-shoulders above Lukowich, Pratt, Neckar and at times Sarich. Only Boyle consistently outplayed Kubina on the Lightning blueline last season. The mindless masses who tried to boo Kubina out of the building were led to do so by a local sports-talk DJ who needed a whipping boy and picked Kubina because his obvious limitations in the skating department make him an easy target.

Indeed, a lot of people woke up and took notice of Kubina's defense in the playoffs last season. But that doesn't mean he wasn't a solid D-man before. It just means most people weren't paying attention to that part of his game. Don't get me wrong -- Kubina has struggled mightily with consistency in the past, but he's always been underappreciated in this market.

Until now.

Boltsfan2029

02-07-2004, 01:49 PM

The mindless masses who tried to boo Kubina out of the building were led to do so by a local sports-talk DJ who needed a whipping boy and picked Kubina because his obvious limitations in the skating department make him an easy target.

No offense, Joe, but I have to disagree with you on this one. Unlike you and many others who post here, I am personally acquainted with quite a few of those who booed Pavel and I can tell you that not a one of 'em ever made any reference to doing so because of anything Steve Duemig had to say. Matter of fact, seems to me Duemig only really took off on Pavel after the boo-birds began doing their thing.

Since we're on the subject -- Pavel himself has been quoted as saying the booing basically helped & encouraged him to become a better player. Perhaps it's time to end the persecution of those who participated. After all, if he's man enough to forgive, I don't see why the fans who disapprove can't get over it, as well (all of 'em, not singling anyone out, I'm talking about those who post here and those who don't).

-Sharon

Note for those who need the clarification: I never booed Kubina, I don't agree with booing any player on the team. I don't even agree with booing the team as a whole. I've never done it and I never will... no matter how much they may deserve it at any given moment! ;)

petec1978*

02-07-2004, 03:36 PM

Sharon is correct, Kubina was already seen in a negative light by the fan base long before Duemig decided to make it one of the center planks of The Bigot Dog Platform next to "Bob Knight is OK", "Pete Rose deserves to be in the Hall because everybody MUST like gambling as much as I do.", and the latest "Jon Gruden is an evil power hungry psychopath."

This town has always been incredibly tough on defensemen. Mean spirited. Brutal. Vicious. It started with Hamrlik and Cross... and it will probably continue until the day I die and they put me 6ft under. The bar is so much higher for a defenseman in this town to be perceived positively it isn't funny. Dan Boyle leads all d-men on the team in points (24) and is a solid (+7) and leads the team in IT and yet there are still folks in this town who delight in calling him a one-dimensional, undisciplined bum (and he led the whole TEAM points by a defenseman, IT, and +/- last season). Poor Brad Lukowich leads all Lightning d-men in +/- this season and yet he STILL carries the albatross of the Pitkanen deal around his neck.

In late December I started posting on the SSN board the shot totals these guys as a group were allowing. They're amazing. Its amazing how well this group is playing defensive hockey right now. Nevertheless a good portion of the SSN crowd said "Noooo, our GAA is all because of goaltending. Nooooo. its all because the forwards backcheck so hard." This team is holding clubs regularly below 25 shots and in the period I posted they were holding teams below 20 shots a game, and yet they didn't get AN OUNCE of praise. This town is just horrible to defensemen. Horrible. I wouldn't want to play D in Tampa the way the fans treat them, and the proof is right there.

Pavel is having a great month. He has months like he is currently having about twice a season... months where he is really hot defensively. This time its been particularly in the area of goals, and that I feel is what has really attracted the leagues interest in him as an all-star. Will he carry all the way through the rest of the season? I kind of doubt it. But SOMEONE from this team's d corps deserved to go. They're currently one of the better two-way groups in the league, even though its unlikely most folks outside of Tampa could pick any one of them (other than Sydor maybe and he's been underrated throughout his career too) out of a police line up. To me, Kubina is going there to represent not just himself, but the other six guys on our backline as well.

Equally ridiculous is the fact this team may finish with 100 points and it only had one all-star prior to Kubina's addition as an injury replacement.

I have no problem with booing a player when they make a mistake. That is constructive feedback IMO. Booing a guy every time they touch the puck like LightningNation did to Kubina last season is an act of shear and absolute stupidity. What do you gain from that as a fan? Kubina now knows you hate him unconditionally. Great, and that is supposed to motivate him to play better... how? It was especially dumb considering we know Pavel has always been, as Torts put it, a little bit "special". Not "special" the way some Olympics are, but he's a very emotional player and very sensitive to criticism. He gets down on himself easily. I cringed when I heard people were booing him every time he touched the puck and cheering when he was announced as a healthy scratch. That was completely self destructive behavior on our fan base's part. Its just like with Fedotenko... you may not LIKE the guy, and you may hold the Pitkanen deal against him forever like with Lukowich too, but this team NEEDS Ruslan Fedotenko to play well (see how well the team is doing now that he's stepped it up on our 2nd line?) just like they NEED Pavel Kubina to play well... even moreso in the period between the idiocy of the Aucoin trade and the exaltation of the Sydor deal.

Now as far as Duemig goes... I think anyone who has heard his show in the last couple of years would agree that ever since Demers and a couple of his other buddies have left the organization (you know, the ones that gave him all the inside info and first crack at the company line) the quality of his "comentary" has gone down, DRASTICALLY. That's compounded by the fact 85% of his content is now Bucs and/or betting related. I don't think any real hockey fan in the area take what Duemig says with much more than a grain of salt... and casual fans shouldn't either. The day he sat there on his show knowing full well the Aucoin deal was a disaster and he defended it anyway sewed it up for me. The man has no real conscience, no conviction, and no clue. I wanted to vomit the whole three hours of that show, because the media and fan base in Tampa just rolled over on that one and played dead. Pathetic. It wasn't until a year or two later that everybody finally woke up and came along to the position I had always had: that was OBVIOUSLY one of the worst 3 deals the Lightning had ever made and one that set the franchise back 2 years easily. Dudley should've been crucified on the spot for that trade. Duemig gave him a free pass. Disgusting.

-Pete Choquette

Boltsfan2029

02-07-2004, 04:15 PM

This town has always been incredibly tough on defensemen.

It's not just defensemen and it's not just the Lightning. The fans always have a select scapegoat for every team. The Bucs? It was Dilfer, Alstott, Keyshawn. Take your pick. The Bolts? Last year it was Kubina, this year it's Khabibulin.

Kubina now knows you hate him unconditionally. Great, and that is supposed to motivate him to play better... how? It was especially dumb considering we know Pavel has always been, as Torts put it, a little bit "special". Not "special" the way some Olympics are, but he's a very emotional player and very sensitive to criticism. He gets down on himself easily.

I think you're going a bit overboard on that one, Pete. I don't think anyone hated Pavel and I don't think he ever thought anyone did. He's a grown man and a profesional athlete and he seems to have handled it well if you go by his quotes in today's Trib:

``They expect a lot of me,'' Kubina said of the fans. ``They let me know that they were not happy with the way I was playing, and this year they are really on my side. Last year was tough on me and I learned a lot, but the fans in Tampa are great and they show you that they care. If they are not yelling at you, that means they don't care. It's a show of some respect. This year they have been great. They have been great for the whole team.''

You're correct he should get more respect as an athlete, but I think you need to give him a bit more credit as a man. He seems to have handled it in a way that has made him a better player, and he deserves a lot of credit for that. Don't you think you're selling him a bit short?

-Sharon

Sotnos

02-07-2004, 10:29 PM

It's not just defensemen and it's not just the Lightning. The fans always have a select scapegoat for every team. The Bucs? It was Dilfer, Alstott, Keyshawn. Take your pick. The Bolts? Last year it was Kubina, this year it's Khabibulin.
That's true, people always need to pick a victim, preferably a rich one, the position doesn't matter. But no one's coming down on Khabi like they were coming down on Kubina, not even close IMO. If you want to hear a crowd come down on a goalie, watch another Flames game when Turek's in net! ;) I think I've heard Khabi getting the "Bronx cheer" once, and it wasn't even this year.

I think you're going a bit overboard on that one, Pete. I don't think anyone hated Pavel and I don't think he ever thought anyone did. He's a grown man and a profesional athlete and he seems to have handled it well if you go by his quotes in today's Trib:
I'm glad he's not bitter about it, but if he honestly thinks people were doing it because they CARE, he's being just a wee bit naive. Whatever he needs to tell himself to keep on going is OK by me, however. Honestly, what's he supposed to say? "I beat myself up over it for months", "I had dreams about bringing a gun to the rink", "I make more money than those idiots anyway, what do I care?" He's putting a good public face on it, which shows his maturity, and he's playing great this year. Who's to say he wouldn't have done so without this "encouragement"?

What bothers me about this is, why was he singled out while others are getting off scot-free this year? If the REAL reason was because of his paycheck, where are the boos for a few other guys who haven't lit it up so far? I thought Kuby got treated brutally last year, especially when most fans would know that he's sensitive to criticism, and there is some hypocrisy being shown. Heck, Brisebois ended up having a mild heart condition from similar treatment in Montreal. It's worthy of discussion.

Rschmitz

02-08-2004, 02:25 AM

Rschmitz

02-08-2004, 02:27 AM

The All-Star game is all about offense

I thought it was about putting the best player on the ice

mrv52

02-08-2004, 08:54 AM

I thought it was about putting the best player on the ice

Well if this is the case, McCabe should have been there, without a doubt.

Boltsfan2029

02-08-2004, 09:52 AM

I remember a very destrout Kubina, Lecavalier even publicly spoke out against the boos. It hurt his confidence on the ice, not helped, Kubina is only being open minded in saying that the boos were because people cared.

Or perhaps he's maturing.

Let me ask this question: if the fans didn't care, why would they bother to boo, cheer or in any way voice their feelings? It might be a "negative" response, but IMO there would be no response at all if the fans didn't care.

-Sharon

King of Stankonia

02-08-2004, 12:58 PM

To kind of put the thread back on topic, the great Pavel unleashed a 101.2 mph slapshot at the skills comp last night. Atta boy!

Sotnos

02-08-2004, 01:30 PM

To kind of put the thread back on topic,
Thank you, please do! This got hijacked by people who were ticked off that their boy wasn't chosen, highly annoying.

the great Pavel unleashed a 101.2 mph slapshot at the skills comp last night. Atta boy!
:handclap: He acquitted himself quite nicely, I was hoping beforehand that he'd get in the hardest shot competition. Way to go Pavel! IIRC, that shot would have won last year.

I hope this is a big boost for his confidence, especially the fact that he was the first guy the league wanted when Redden got sick. Go Kuby, keep up the hard work, it's finally being noticed. :)

petec1978*

02-08-2004, 03:10 PM

It's not just defensemen and it's not just the Lightning. The fans always have a select scapegoat for every team.

I totally disagree. Go to the SSN board during a game or after a loss and look at the posts. The first thing most everyone in this town does is attempt to assign blame to a defenseman for every single goal. Cory Cross for years was the biggest whipping boy of the Lightning fan base, with Hamrlik nipping his heels. Neither of those guys were ever as bad as the hammering they took on the airwaves or on the net. They passed the torch to Kubina primarily, and Lukowich, Pratt, and Boyle to a lesser extent. Defenseman are and always will be the redheaded stepchildren of this hockey team in the eyes of this fan base... you can't possibly have been a fan of the team as long as you have and not understand the double standard that exists in the fan base.

He's a grown man and a profesional athlete and he seems to have handled it well if you go by his quotes in today's Trib:

He's being VERY gracious about it... far more gracious than I would be. I'd be calling into the Bigot Dog's show and rubbing it in his and all the fans who booed faces. But he's more diplomatic than I am, obviously.

Don't you think you're selling him a bit short?

No, because I know how Pavel Kubina is. It took me a while to figure out but the more you hear things and talk to people the more the picture starts to fill in. I used to think Pavel Kubina was a lazy punk in the way he was refusing to show up for skating camp every summer and in the way he constantly made the same mistakes over and over again like an uncoachable player. Not true.

The truth is that Pavel has always been VERY sensistive to criticism. That's why he wouldn't show up to skating camp: not because he was a punk who thought he didn't need to work on it. He didn't go because he didn't want to face the criticism/embarassment of having his skating times posted on the board at the end of the day in front of his teammates. Now, that's not a good reason to skip skating camp, but its a better one than him simply not wanting to be bothered with it out of laziness/complaicency.

Why do you think Torts has only disciplined him ONCE in 2 years? ONCE. Its because as Torts put it in one interview, Kubina is very "special" (his word) in that he is very emotional and very oversensitive. That's why he kept making the same mistakes over and over again. The coaching staff was afraid to discipline him because they feared it would destroy his self confidence, that's why he has always had a double standard as opposed to a guy like Lecavalier.

It took a while for me to figure it out. It always befuddled me why a guy who kept making the same mistakes and refused to show up for skating camp was always so popular with the coaches and with his teammates. The reason is that he's, in some ways, just a big kid. He wants to do well. He wants to win hockey games. But he doesn't have the demeanor of most guys in the league. He's less bulldog and more basset hound.

So when I heard that the fans were booing him arbitrarily, I knew that was bad news. That was not something he was going to react well to. That's why Lecavalier was so pissed in the papers the day afterwards. If you want to boo him when he does something wrong, fine. Boo him arbitrarily just because he touches the puck? That's just unconditional dislike of a player. Plain and simple. Good old fashioned hate.

Let me ask this question: if the fans didn't care, why would they bother to boo,

Care about KUBINA? No. Booing a player arbitrarily every time they touch the puck is not done out of "tough love". Bollocks. They booed because they had scapegoated Kuby for all the teams woes... that's not caring. That's vicious and juvenile. Our fan base should've been better than that.

I'm happy Kubina can turn the other cheek. I can't. I thought it was a completely classless episode in the history of our fan base, and certain folks should be ashamed... just like the ones who broke their legs jumping off the bandwagon this season in December and who were calling for Feaster's head.

-Pete Choquette

Boltsfan2029

02-08-2004, 04:33 PM

I totally disagree. Go to the SSN board during a game or after a loss and look at the posts.

Eh, no thanks, I get my fill of childishness in the few forums I still frequent (this one being the exception most of the time, except when fans from certain other teams drop by).

The first thing most everyone in this town does is attempt to assign blame to a defenseman for every single goal.

The forums I frequent now blame Khabby for every goal that goes in when he's in net. Doesn't matter what defensemen are out there. Doesn't matter if it was a 5-on-1 break, it's Khabby's fault. Unless, of course, Vinny is on the ice at the time, then he shares the blame. :) You're correct, tho, they're very hard on defensemen, but they're blaming Khabby (goalie) now and they booed Lecavalier (center) regularly (although not every time he touched the puck) and they did cheer when he was scratched year before last. That's simply a fact. I was there, I heard it.

He's being VERY gracious about it... far more gracious than I would be. I'd be calling into the Bigot Dog's show and rubbing it in his and all the fans who booed faces. But he's more diplomatic than I am, obviously.

He's maturing, plain and simple. You'd be that gracious if you wanted to keep your job. That's the real world out there, where careers and things hang in the balance, not internet message boards where basically anything goes. If he pulled a stunt like that, he'd be disciplined beyond comprehension. Professional athletes aren't allowed to bash the local medial and their own fans. It's not wise. Pete, you're guessing how Pavel is, nothing wrong with that, but you don't know any more than anyone else here does. However, I've seen Pavel up close interracting with the fans. There's simply no resentment there. If there is, he needs to change professions because he would be an Academy Award winning actor! :)

The coaching staff was afraid to discipline him because they feared it would destroy his self confidence, that's why he has always had a double standard as opposed to a guy like Lecavalier.

Sorry, but I don't go along with this. If Pavel Kubina at 2 months shy of 28 years of age cannot handle having his game critiqued by his coaches, well, that's pathetic and the man has no business in professional sports.

Good old fashioned hate.

Pete, as I said before, I know a number of these people personally, and some of them quite well, which you do not. Not a one of 'em has ever told me they hate Pavel Kubina. They hated his inconsistency, they hated his apparent lack of heart, they hated that he could clearly be so much better than he was showing but he didn't seem to be trying to get to that level. They also admire how he has turned it around. As do I.

I'm just willing to give him a lot more credit than you are. I don't think he's a shattered little boy weeping in his corn flakes. I don't think he's nearly that fragile. He appears to me to be a strong man, an excellent athlete who has learned from his mistakes and finally realizes what it takes to be an NHL player. If what you say is true and the coach is too afraid to do his job with Kubina, well, shame on him. He's keeping the man from being the best player he can be.

Be that as it may, I'll just agree to disagree. The mod apparently feels this has strayed off topic, so I'll let others take the conversation back on track.

Disclaimer: I've never booed Pavel, never will, nor do I condone it being done.

-Sharon

petec1978*

02-08-2004, 06:11 PM

The forums I frequent now blame Khabby for every goal that goes in when he's in net.

That's your own fault for sticking around the JV board.

Professional athletes aren't allowed to bash the local media and their own fans.

They're absolutely allowed, especially when the person in question is a radio host who is reviled by the rest of the local media as a total jerk. And as far as the "fans" who booed him go, I believe we're talking about a small, very vocal, and very unknowledgable sect of "fans" who need their come uppance anyway.

Pete, you're guessing how Pavel is,

Torts own words. I think Torts knows him better than you or I.

I've seen Pavel up close interracting with the fans. There's simply no resentment there.

Why should there be? Its not like Pavel can tell the idiots who booed him from the rest of the fans. The hillarious thing is that the people who were so vocal and ready to crucify him last year are probably the same sorry SOBs who will be begging him for his autograph the second he gets back from Minnesota.

If Pavel Kubina at 2 months shy of 28 years of age cannot handle having his game critiqued by his coaches, well, that's pathetic and the man has no business in professional sports.

Well then why has he only been disciplined by Torts once in the last two seasons? Like I said, he's a "special" case (Torts' own words).

I don't think he's a shattered little boy weeping in his corn flakes.

Not anymore he's not. He grew up in that playoff series when he figured out he could hold a guy like Jagr down all by his lonesome. It had NOTHING to do with the classless bozos who cheered when he was announced as a healthy scratch. Your friends may want to romanticize it that way, but there was nothing constructive about what they did.

If what you say is true and the coach is too afraid to do his job with Kubina,

There are athletes who respond better to the velvet glove rather than the iron fist. Pavel has been one of them over the course of his career. Torts is simply tailoring his coaching style to the character of his individual players. That's a good thing IMO. Its the times Torts has treated guys uniformly like they just popped out of a cookie cutter rather than understanding that certain guys, for instance, don't respond well to being bashed in the media and others do, that he's gotten in trouble.

The mod apparently feels this has strayed off topic

Sotnos was talking about the bitter Toronto fan who is mad McCabe wasn't selected in favor of Kubina.

In closing: if you really think what was done to Kubina was right and constuctive, why did Lecavalier so severely chastize the fans for doing it the next day in the papers (see, there is a time when a player can bash the fan base... when they're acting like fools)?

-Pete Choquette

Sotnos

02-08-2004, 06:16 PM

The forums I frequent now blame Khabby for every goal that goes in when he's in net. Doesn't matter what defensemen are out there. Doesn't matter if it was a 5-on-1 break, it's Khabby's fault. Unless, of course, Vinny is on the ice at the time, then he shares the blame. :)
Geez, thanks for reminding me why the TBL board isn't really worth my time. Those people blow so hot and cold on players it's not even funny. The Modin-trashing early in the season really turned me off.

Professional athletes aren't allowed to bash the local medial and their own fans. It's not wise.
Not to bring this guy up again, but tell that to Roman Turek. ;)

Sorry, but I don't go along with this. If Pavel Kubina at 2 months shy of 28 years of age cannot handle having his game critiqued by his coaches, well, that's pathetic and the man has no business in professional sports.
I really think there's some truth to what Pete's saying here. Last year, it seemed the coach did everything short of scratching Pavel to get him to snap out of it when he was really playing poorly. He gave most of Kuby's responsibilities to Dan Boyle early in the season, and Kuby had to fight for every minute after that. I also remember people wanting him to get a seat in the pressbox for weeks (if not months) before it actually happened.

Pete, as I said before, I know a number of these people personally, and some of them quite well, which you do not. Not a one of 'em has ever told me they hate Pavel Kubina. They hated his inconsistency, they hated his apparent lack of heart, they hated that he could clearly be so much better than he was showing but he didn't seem to be trying to get to that level. They also admire how he has turned it around. As do I.
What was the purpose of cheering Kuby's announcement as a scratch when he was INJURED (after he'd gotten boarded by Bondra) and we were down to 5 d-men, one of whom was Rumble, with Boyle heading for yet another 30+ minute game in a row? You going to tell us that was done with good intentions too? Come on.

(As for this group that you know, if you're talking about some of the same people I'm thinking of, I'd agree they're great people, fun to be with and devoted fans. I pretty much just agree to disagree on the treatment Pavel got, because there's no justifying it, now or then.)

The mod apparently feels this has strayed off topic, so I'll let others take the conversation back on track.
No, the mod doesn't think so whatsoever. :) What I had a problem with was outsiders coming in here to talk about McCabe and trash our player.

Boltsfan2029

02-08-2004, 08:06 PM

In closing: if you really think what was done to Kubina was right and constuctive,

As you well know, I said -- more than once -- that I neither agreed with nor condoned what was done. As I've told you before, when you resort to twisting/fabricating statements to throw a discussion off track, I'm done with it. I simply will not argue with you over something I didn't say.

-Sharon

Boltsfan2029

02-08-2004, 08:09 PM

You going to tell us that was done with good intentions too? Come on.

Certainly not. When did I say any of it was done with "good intentions"?

-Sharon

Rschmitz

02-08-2004, 11:58 PM

Or perhaps he's maturing.

Let me ask this question: if the fans didn't care, why would they bother to boo, cheer or in any way voice their feelings? It might be a "negative" response, but IMO there would be no response at all if the fans didn't care.

-Sharon

I heard Phil Esposito say the exact same thing, however; I counter with this. "Philidelphia"

Let me elaborate. Philidelphia fans have a history of crucifying their teams. They pick on the team, and sometimes a particular player. The teams confidence is shot, and they usually falter. If you cared for the team, would u boo so adamently..and so readily?

Im not saying that because your boo Kubina your hurting your team. However, booing him every time he touches the puck is. It was getting old and thats why I think our future captain spoke out.

Rschmitz

02-09-2004, 12:29 AM

Pete, I disagree with the skating issues being the problem; in why he decided to skip the camp. I know he lacked there, but in 98 he was probably the best puck handeling/skating defenseman we had on the team. I remember some of his goals where he would skate/puck handle through 3 players and roof a goal. Its just too weak of an excuse.

The reason I think he skipped camp was because he didn't like the team. Our 98-99 team was horrible. They didn't hustle, they didn't have talent, they didn't care about one another. It was just a horrible situation to be in, and the older players like Richer and Renberg...Peter Sykora and others were entirely self motivated, corrupting Kubina and Vinny.

I think its obvious. Kubina grew up as a "gentle giant", and in the European leagues where he wasn't forced to check or intimidate as much as the NHL, he thrived(7th rund pick isn't necessary thriving).

Someone check me if im wrong, but i'll go out on a limb and say that his turnaround is not from an adjusment in self motivation, but team motivation. He is always sticking up for his smaller teammates, and doing the little things that a teammate does. It seems like when ever Kubina is on the ice St. Louis or Boyle is a little more safer. That spark, which has been long in the making, was probably generated over the playoffs, when he played Jagr so well and regained his confidence. A confident Kubina, and a new mindset, added up to the mental makeup to match his tools.

Jesus it makes me feel gooshy just thinking about him, hes out there trying to make everyone happy. He'd probably jump through burning hoops if it meant more love.

Kubina deserves every bit of empathy we can spare. Hell, start cheering when he touches the puck

<3 Kubina!

Sotnos

02-09-2004, 12:35 AM

Certainly not. When did I say any of it was done with "good intentions"?
Well, you said it was a way for fans to show they cared, I'd assume you think it was well intentioned.

Anyway, a few people have brought up what Vinny said about this, and I must say that gave me a lot of hope for Vinny's leadership capability. He stuck up for his teammate in a very public way, and it seemed to help turn the whole situation around.

Rschmitz

02-09-2004, 12:47 AM

But no one's coming down on Khabi like they were coming down on Kubina, not even close IMO.

People were actually booing the announcement of Grahame in net for the Atlanta game, and before the antheme, I heard about 6 people screaming to put Khabibulin in net. Maybe this is a bucking of the trend, but IMO these are the same peeps who were booing Kubina..and Khabibulin........probably the same peeps who switched from Philidelphia and Detroit jerseies in the middle of last season too.

How demoralizing can it be then to be playing well and then hearing boos after your name is announced? Maybe if your reverted the situation to a forward, after the player scores a hat trick instead of throwing hats on to the ice people threw beer bottles and batteries; then jumped the glass and beat the player up.

Sotnos

02-09-2004, 12:58 AM

before the antheme, I heard about 6 people screaming to put Khabibulin in net.
You sure it wasn't those crazy people who yell "Khabi...BOOOlin" before the anthem at every game? ;) I've never been able to figure out the purpose of that, it's just...strange.

Hawkeye

02-09-2004, 01:03 AM

People were actually booing the announcement of Grahame in net for the Atlanta game, and before the antheme, I heard about 6 people screaming to put Khabibulin in net.

They weren't booing Grammer, they always yell Khabibulllllllllin at that time. Why they do it when Grammer is in, who knows. Hard to believe those 6 people were actually wanting Habby in when Grammer's been playing as well as he has.

Why can't they yell, Grammmmmmmer? :dunno:

Praline

02-09-2004, 01:08 AM

"Why should there be? Its not like Pavel can tell the idiots who booed him from the rest of the fans. The hillarious thing is that the people who were so vocal and ready to crucify him last year are probably the same sorry SOBs who will be begging him for his autograph the second he gets back from Minnesota."

Grin...how very true

Boltsfan2029

02-09-2004, 05:47 AM

Well, you said it was a way for fans to show they cared, I'd assume you think it was well intentioned.

Actually, Pavel is the one who said they did it because they cared. I asked why a fan would boo if they didn't care. Seems to me that if a fan gets worked up enough to boo -- be he/she right or wrong in doing so -- then that fan has to "care" about what he/she is seeing going on.

Speaking only for myself, if I didn't "care" about a player's or team's performance, it wouldn't have enough of an emotional impact to make me boo, cheer, or anything else.

"Caring" and "well intentioned," to me, certainly aren't necessarily the same thing. Fans who riot after victories obviously "care" about their team, but I'd hardly consider their actions "well intentioned."

-Sharon

Once again, for those who need to have it clarified: I have never booed Pavel Kubina, any member of the Tampa Bay Lightning or the team as a unit. I never will. I do not agree with it and I do not condone it.

Boltsfan2029

02-09-2004, 05:54 AM

You sure it wasn't those crazy people who yell "Khabi...BOOOlin" before the anthem at every game? ;) I've never been able to figure out the purpose of that, it's just...strange.

Same guy does that every game. Didn't happen for a while because he was on active duty in Iraq. Thankfully, he's back safe and sound.

Last time Khabby started at home I heard boos when he was announced (definite difference in tone from the "buuuulin" chant) and several folks in 106 shouted for Grahame to be put in throughout the game.

Personally, I think whoever is on the ice for the Bolts should have 100% backing from the fans while the game is going on, whether a favorite player is sitting or not.

-Sharon

Papadice

02-09-2004, 09:03 AM

Because you already have Gary Roberts who shouldn't be there.

I fully agree... There is no way Roberts should have been named to the team... What use is he in a game with no contact? I love the guy, but he's no allstar...

Papadice

02-09-2004, 09:10 AM

Gotta say, I am getting a chuckle out of some of these posts. Leafs fans, for a group who complains incessantly about trolling on your own board, um, well what do you call what you're doing here telling us our player is a joke?

Caps fan, anyone with half a brain knows that Gonchar should have been selected before just about anyone else in the East. We get it. ;) It's kind of moot anyway, in his case.

Get your facts straight... I NEVER ONCE said that Kubina is a joke... I said his selection over McCabe was a joke... In fact, I said Kubina was a decent dman and I congradulated him on his selection... I just laughed at the fact that they'd take him over McCabe who is obviously having a much better season...

Papadice

02-09-2004, 09:13 AM

No? Then who, in your opinion, is? Remember, you said "all-around." Boyle is better offensively, Sarich and Cullimore are better defensively, but only newcomer Sydor is arguably a better "all-around" D-man than Kubina, who has been by far the most consistent blueliner to wear the Bolt this season.

McCabe's having a great year. I agree he should be there. But if you want to gripe, go pick on Nick Boynton.

I agree that Boynton shouldn't have been there either... There are a few guys that I was really suprised by their selection... I wasn't meaning my initial comment to say that Kubina wasn't better than any of the initial 6 selected... I was simply saying that I don't think he's better than McCabe... In my opinion, McCabe should have been one of the top 6 easily, over Boynton...

petec1978*

02-09-2004, 09:18 AM

Well, you said it was a way for fans to show they cared, I'd assume you think it was well intentioned.

Exactly. So for Sharon to say I was somehow twisting or fabricating by coming to the same conclusion annoys me. If you have a more nuanced position Sharon, make it clear. None of us are mind readers.

-Pete Choquette

Sotnos

02-09-2004, 09:39 AM

Get your facts straight...
Watch your mouth.
I NEVER ONCE said that Kubina is a joke... I said his selection over McCabe was a joke... In fact, I said Kubina was a decent dman and I congradulated him on his selection... I just laughed at the fact that they'd take him over McCabe who is obviously having a much better season...
Good for you, what I'm telling you is laugh somewhere else because we don't care about McCabe. People get banned for posting less inflammatory stuff than this on the Leafs board. Drop it, it's over and done with.

Boltsfan2029

02-09-2004, 09:50 AM

If you have a more nuanced position Sharon, make it clear. None of us are mind readers.

-Pete Choquette

Here are some actual quotes, I thought they pretty well made my stance on the subject quite clear. All of these are contained within this thread, apparently you missed them.

While I do not condone, agree with or feel the booing was done with “good intentions,” if Pavel Kubina chose to take a negative experience and do something constructive with it, I applaud and admire him for it. As you pointed out yourself, it’s more than many of us here would have done.

-Sharon

Note for those who need the clarification: I never booed Kubina, I don't agree with booing any player on the team. I don't even agree with booing the team as a whole. I've never done it and I never will... no matter how much they may deserve it at any given moment!

It might be a "negative" response

Disclaimer: I've never booed Pavel, never will, nor do I condone it being done.

said -- more than once -- that I neither agreed with nor condoned what was done.

Once again, for those who need to have it clarified: I have never booed Pavel Kubina, any member of the Tampa Bay Lightning or the team as a unit. I never will. I do not agree with it and I do not condone it.

Rschmitz

02-09-2004, 11:26 AM

You sure it wasn't those crazy people who yell "Khabi...BOOOlin" before the anthem at every game? ;) I've never been able to figure out the purpose of that, it's just...strange.

lol!

I suppose it could be, i've haven't been able to make many games. But my guess would be no. Here is what two of them yelled, one after the other...@ different sides of the SPTF..."Put Khabibulin in you #$%@#$% idiot"....."Grahame sucks".

D:

Rschmitz

02-09-2004, 11:43 AM

Sharon, booing someone every time they touch the puck? Come on

In sports, fans do this when an opposing player from the other team talks down to a team or a city; not when someone is playing poorly. I blame this on the transplant idiots from Philly and NY in confusing people that your suppose to boo someone when they are playing poorly.

Do you think someone said "lets boo Kubina every time he touches the puck, maybe he will play better."? Lets not forget that Kubina was on the trading block for a while, maybe they wanted to see him gone.

Do you think Kubina is going to tell people he felt like crap and that he hates the fans because they did that? I personally think he loves the fans, but trust me, he doesn't think the fans booed him because they cared.

Like I've said, don't get me wrong, booing can be because people care...but there is a way to do this. Booing a team because they can't convert a 2 minute 5-3 is fine. Booing Kubina every time he touches the puck is ridiculous. If you don't boo or cheer, then your not being a fan, your being a spectator.