ATD #9 Lineup Assassination Thread

FissionFire
05-07-2008, 07:41 PM
With the draft mostly complete and several teams rosters conplete it's time to move to the next, and depending on your viewpoint either the most pleasurable or painful part of the ATD: Lineup Assassination. Fell free to hack, slash, burn, maim, destroy, demolish, expose, and/or demoralize your fellow GMs and their "teams".

When you are ready to be judged, post your regular season rosters complete with PP/PK tandems and line/defense combinations for judgement by the masses. The lineups posted will be those used for the regular season phase of the voting so make sure you post your final roster choices as no additional transactions will be permitted after you post your final lineup here.

Who'll be the first to stand judgement?

vancityluongo
05-07-2008, 07:50 PM
Isn't this the same thing as the "Division and Roster discussion" thread? I don't know, I think we were fine using that thread, but if this one is needed, I'll post the roster here too then.

The Winnipeg Jets

GM's: Willie for Captain and vancityluongo
Coach: Glen Sather
Captain: #5 Denis Potvin
Assistant Captain #1 (Home): #19 Joe Sakic
Assistant Captain #2 (Home): #25 Doug Jarvis
Assistant Captain #3 (Away): #9 Roy Conacher
Assistant Captain #4 (Away): #3 Marcel Pronovost

#9 Roy Conacher (A) - #19 Joe Sakic (A) - #21 Tim Kerr
#8 Alexander Ovechkin - #22 Buddy O'Connor - #10 Owen Nolan
#11 Jean-Paul Parise - #25 Doug Jarvis (A) - #14 Claude Provost
#12 Paul Henderson - #39 Doug Weight - #88 Ken Randall
Scratches: C, #32 Tom Lysiak, RW, #25 Willi Plett

#3 Marcel Pronovost (A) - #5 Denis Potvin (C)
#4 William "Flash" Hollett - #34 Jamie Macoun
#6 Calle Johansson - #8 Clarence "Taffy" Abel
#7 Gennady Tsygankov

#2 Jiri Holocek
#35 Andy Moog

Spitfire11
05-07-2008, 07:57 PM
Perfect, just in time for the finished Detroit Red Wings. Always like hearing other opinions.

Detroit Red Wings
Coach: Mike Babcock, Jimmy Skinner
Spares: Ed Sandford, Gordie Roberts

Clark Gillies - Cyclone Taylor - Yvan Cournoyer
Herbie Lewis - Marty Barry - Jarome Iginla
Craig Simpson - Phil Watson - Tommy Phillips
Gilles Tremblay - Vladimir Shadrin - Eric Nesterenko

Scott Niedermayer - Moose Vasko
Gus Mortson - Wally Stanowski
Gary Bergman - George Owen

Dominik Hasek
Dave Kerr

Diving Pokecheck*
05-07-2008, 08:08 PM
Ottawa Silver 7
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/5/5e/250px-Silver7.jpg
Coach: Herb Brooks
Goaltending Coach: Warren Strelow
Toe Blake (C) - Pat Lafontaine - Jaromir Jagr
Dany Heatley - Jason Spezza - Daniel Alfredsson (A)
Brian Propp - Ralph Backstrom - Brian Bellows
Bruce Stewart (A) - Charlie Burns - Cully Dahlstrom
x-Doru Tureanu

Nic Lidstrom (A) - Brian Rafalski
JC Tremblay - Steve Smith
Alex Smith - Chris Phillips
x-Garry Galley

Tom Barrasso
Evgeny Nabakov

Transplanted Caper
05-07-2008, 08:19 PM
The Glace Bay Miners

Coach: Ken Hitchcock
Assistant Coach: Al MacNeil
Captain: Bob Gainey
Alternates: Phil Esposito, Chris Chelios

Wayne Cashman - Phil Esposito - Anders Hedberg
Marty Pavelich - Billy Burch - Ron Ellis
Bob Gainey - Doug Riseborough - Mario Tremblay
Fred Stanfield - Art Chapman - Eddie Oatman
Bronco Horvath

Chris Chelios - Guy Lapointe
Allan Stanley - Reed Larson
Jerry Korab - Harvey Pulford
Pekka Rautakallio

Gump Worsley
Paddy Moran

EagleBelfour
05-07-2008, 08:24 PM
Detroit Falcons
http://www.azhockey.com/images%20-%20logos/LogoNhlDetroitFalcons.jpg

Coach:Roger Neilson

Doug Bentley (A) - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

Leonard Kelly (A) - Émile Bouchard (C)
George Boucher - Si Griffis
Vitaly Davydov - Mike Grant
Glen Harmon

Frank Brimsek


Powerplay:
Doug Bentley - Bill Cowley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Leonard Kelly - Max Bentley

Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Gordie Drillon
George Boucher - Mike Grant

Penalty Kill:
Ed Westfall - Guy Carbonneau
Émile Bouchard - George Boucher

Jack Walker - Bert Olmstead
Vitaly Davydov - Leonard Kelly
(Red Kelly taking the faceoffs)

pappyline
05-07-2008, 08:26 PM
Buffalo Bisons

Coach: Dick Irvin
Asst coach & Trainer:Lloyd Percival

Busher Jackson-Stan Mikita(A)-Vaclav Nedomansky
Alex Delvecchio-Tod Sloan-Eddie Litzenberger(C)
Don Marshall-Fleming Mackell-Jerry Toppazzini
Johnny Wilson-Orland Kurtenbach-Murray Balfour
Bill Red Hay

Bill White-Pierre Pilote (A)
Carl Brewer-Neil Colville
Frank Patrick-Doug Barkley
Pat Egan

Chuck Rayner
Gerry McNeil

PP#1
Busher Jackson-Stan Mikita-Vaclav Nedomansky
Frank Patrick-Pierre Pilote

pp#2
Alex Delvecchio-Tod Sloan-Eddie Litzenberger
Carl Brewer-Neil Colville

pk#1
Don Marshall-Jerry Toppazzini
Bill White-Pierre Pilote

pk#2
Johnny Wilson-Fleming Mackell
Carl Brewer-Neil Colville

Pwnasaurus
05-07-2008, 08:35 PM
Kansas City Scouts

Roster

Coach: Pete Green

Assistant Coach: Ted Nolan

Steve Shutt - Mark Messier (C) - Ken Wharram
Paul Thompson - Frank Foyston - Harry "Punch" Broadbent
Ross Lonsberry - Troy Murray - Alf Smith (A)
Gerard Gallant - Ryan Walter - Allan "Scotty" Davidson
Jack Adams



Tim Horton (A) - Frantisek Pospisil
Walter "Babe" Pratt - Barclay Plager
Ron Stackhouse - Barry Ashbee
Lloyd Cook

Johnny Bower
Ed Johnston

PP1: Thompson-Messier-Broadbent-Shutt-Horton
PP2: Smith-Foyston-Wharram-Pratt-Stackhouse
PK1: Lonsberry-Murray-Horton-Pospisil
PK2: Gallant-Walter-Plager-Ashbee

God Bless Canada
05-07-2008, 09:03 PM
If this is where we're doing this, then here's my team. And I'll keep reviews to this thread.

OTTAWA RCAF FLYERS

GMs: raleh and God Bless Canada
Coach: Tommy Gorman
Captain: Milt Schmidt
Alternate captain: Larry Robinson
Alternate captain: Hap Day
Alternate captain: Johnny Bucyk


FORWARDS
Big...Bad...Bruins line: #9 Johnny Bucyk-#15 Milt Schmidt-#8 Cam Neely
Second line: #27 Shayne Corson-#25 Jacques Lemaire-#18 Steve Larmer
Two-way line: #35 Mike McPhee-#11 Wayne Merrick-#20 Bobby Rousseau
Grind line: #12 Brenden Morrow-#14 Glen Skov-#13 Blair Russell

DEFENCEMEN
#19 Larry Robinson-#3 Clarence "Hap" Day
#6 Doug "Diesel" Mohns-#5 Bill Barilko
#10 Ted Harris-#7 Brad Maxwell

GOALTENDERS
#30 Gerry "Cheesy" Cheevers
#31 Hugh "Old Eagle Eyes" Lehman

chaosrevolver
05-07-2008, 09:18 PM
Montreal Sarasaurusrex
Coach: Lester Patrick
Captain: Jack Stewart
Assistant Captain: Bobby Hull
Assistant Captain: Craig MacTavish

#9 Bobby Hull - #13 Mickey MacKay - #17 Jari Kurri
#91 Paul Kariya - #19 Butch Goring - #8 Cecil "Babe" Dye
#27 Harry Watson - #14 Craig MacTavish - #20 Cliff Koroll
#12 Stan Jonathan - #26 Mel Bridgman - #11 Duane Sutter
#18 Dave "The Hammer" Schultz - #24 Erich Kühnhackl

#5 Jack "Blackjack" Stewart - #7 Alexei Kasatonov
#3 Ching Johnson - #6 Stefan Persson
#25 Petr Svoboda - #4 Kevin Hatcher
#44 Mike Milbury

#35 Tony Esposito
#1 Chico Resch

Power Play #1:
Bobby Hull- Mickey MacKay - Jari Kurri
Jack Stewart - Stefan Persson

Power Play #2:
Paul Kariya - Butch Goring - Cecil Dye
Alexei Kasatonov- Kevin Hatcher

Penalty Kill #1:
Butch Goring - Cliff Koroll
Jack Stewart - Alexei Kasatonov

Penalty Kill #2:
Craig MacTavish - Duane Sutter
Ching Johnson - Petr Svoboda

Transplanted Caper
05-07-2008, 09:32 PM
Isn't this the same thing as the "Division and Roster discussion" thread? I don't know, I think we were fine using that thread, but if this one is needed, I'll post the roster here too then.

The Winnipeg Jets

GM's: Willie for Captain and vancityluongo
Coach: Glen Sather
Captain: #5 Denis Potvin
Assistant Captain #1 (Home): #19 Joe Sakic
Assistant Captain #2 (Home): #25 Doug Jarvis
Assistant Captain #3 (Away): #9 Roy Conacher
Assistant Captain #4 (Away): #3 Marcel Pronovost

#9 Roy Conacher (A) - #19 Joe Sakic (A) - #21 Tim Kerr
#8 Alexander Ovechkin - #22 Buddy O'Connor - #10 Owen Nolan
#11 Jean-Paul Parise - #25 Doug Jarvis (A) - #14 Claude Provost
#12 Paul Henderson - #39 Doug Weight - #88 Ken Randall
Scratches: C, #32 Tom Lysiak, RW, #25 Willi Plett

#3 Marcel Pronovost (A) - #5 Denis Potvin (C)
#4 William "Flash" Hollett - #34 Jamie Macoun
#6 Calle Johansson - #8 Clarence "Taffy" Abel
#7 Gennady Tsygankov

#2 Jiri Holocek
#35 Andy Moog

*I'll start with the first roster posted. vcl, I really think you've put together a solid team. Looking at this roster, and those of your division counterparts, I definitely think this is a team that should be opening Round One of the playoffs at home. Nothing bad you can say about Sakic. He's been the most consistent player in the last 20 years, bar none. I really don't think there's an argument that can be made to the contrary. He can do it all, so it would be pretty difficult to make wingers not fit with him because of how adaptable he is. That first line will be dynamic and pretty difficult to stop
*Not a huge fan of the 2nd line, but that may just be me. I think AO has certainly arrived as an ATD fixture, but I'm still hesitant to put a ton of stock, at least in the context of this draft, into 3 seasons. That being said, I don't think he's a detriment to the line as a whole. Not a Nolan fan at all really, I think he's a worldclass sleazebag (I won't dock you marks for that one though, I'm just a bitter Leafs fan). I think while his physicality helps on this line, I just don't think he was all that consistent in his career.
*Checking line is definitely one of the best in the draft (you're not gonna catch me calling you #1 either vcl;!!! ). It'll be pretty difficult for teams to beat you offensively when that trio is on the ice.
*Really like Weight in the #4 centre spot. He's a warrior and a guy who in his prime could do a ton. He's perfect there b/c I think he can do a whatever job you ask of him in that role.
*nice balance on defense as well, which should provide reliable play in all facets of the game...although McCoun's moustache might be grey by the time the series is over!
*Solid tandem in goal that will keep your team in any game they play.
*Again vcl, a really solid effort from top to bottom. Well done. Really glad too see my MLD co-GM put forth such a good roster. Kudos.

God Bless Canada
05-07-2008, 09:47 PM
*Smart move in moving Taylor to centre. It worked great for Mullin in the last draft, and I'm convinced that with the right talent around him, he's better at C than D in an ATD context, despite the talent available at C. Gillies-Taylor-Cournoyer reminds me a lot of the Bentley-Bentley-Neely line I had in the last draft, with the big power forward to open up room for smaller, skilled, fast forwards.
*Am I the only one who expects better numbers for Cournoyer. Don't get me wrong. Great player. But his numbers aren't what I'd expect for a skill guy. Great playoff performer.
*Is Herbie Lewis good enough to play a second line role in an ATD? I like his game, and I know he played with Marty Barry, but will he score enough? I expect to see Craig Simpson (one of the biggest what if guys in the last draft) to be on that second line on a regular basis.
*A typically tough Spit team to play against. Outside of Taylor and Cournoyer, your entire team is tough or excellent in their own zone.
*Love the Nestorenko pick. We'll get him one day.
*Niedermayer-Vasko is one of the fastest pairings in the draft. Vasko has great mobility for a big defenceman, plus toughness and excellent hockey sense. Stanowski-Mortson isn't far behind them for mobility.
*Your entire defence is mobile. That's what scares me about them. Okay, Owen and Niedermayer aren't tough, but damn they can skate. Every defenceman on your team can skate. That's a big advantage.
*Will you give Vasko, Stanowski and Mortson to join the rush? Because I think all three would have put up excellent numbers if they played in the post-Orr era.
*Hasek won't get a lot of work. Not necessarily his preference, but he didn't wilt playing behind the Wings in 2002.
*Sanford's a great 13th liner. He gives you a good scoring option for your second line just in case.
*Biggest concern for your team is coaching. I like Babcock, and I know he's your guy, but if you want to bring him into the draft, do it as an assistant. Better coaches out there. And in your division, with so many good teams, coaching could be the difference between winning and losing.

Perfect, just in time for the finished Detroit Red Wings. Always like hearing other opinions.

Detroit Red Wings
Coach: Mike Babcock, Jimmy Skinner
Spares: Ed Sandford, Gordie Roberts

Clark Gillies - Cyclone Taylor - Yvan Cournoyer
Herbie Lewis - Marty Barry - Jarome Iginla
Craig Simpson - Phil Watson - Tommy Phillips
Gilles Tremblay - Vladimir Shadrin - Eric Nesterenko

Scott Niedermayer - Moose Vasko
Gus Mortson - Wally Stanowski
Gary Bergman - George Owen

Dominik Hasek
Dave Kerr

God Bless Canada
05-07-2008, 10:00 PM
Last one of the night.

*It's too bad what happened with this team. I think Cup has the potential to be a good GM. Whatever his reasons were for the absence and some of the later picks are not our affair. Good to see ADC back in the draft, just not in these circumstances.
*There is a lot to like once you get past the reliance on the current Ottawa Senators. I like the first line. LaFontaine is good enough to be a bottom-tier first line centre. He's fearless. Jagr and Blake are elite players for their positions. We wanted Blake before we got Bucyk. Blake's excellent defensively. A first line that should get a lot of goals.
*Third line will be very tough to play against. Backstrom might be the best defensive line centre in the draft. Bellows and Propp provide excellent toughness and solid skill. Propp was money in the playoffs.
*Good to see Charlie Burns finally brought into this thing. An excellent defensive centre.
*I have big concerns about the second line. Spezza isn't ATD worthy. Heatley and Alfredsson are okay for second line roles. I don't think the CASH Line is good enough to be reunited in this context, unless it's for a third scoring line. (If you had a better offensive centre than Backstrom, you could have a good second line with Propp-xxxxx-Bellows).
*Defence has a lot of skill. Lidstrom-Rafalski know a thing or two about playing together. I question if Lidstrom and Tremblay aren't redundent, as they're both highly skilled defencemen, but don't play physical. If you're going to have a redundency, Lidstrom-Tremblay is a good one to have. I had Tremblay at the very bottom of my potential No. 1 d-men list.
*Phillips is a liability. He's not good enough at this stage to play in an ATD context. Fine for the MLD. But not the ATD. You might want to employ Galley in your top six.
*I'm not a Barrasso fan. But he's a good goalie, good enough to be a bottom tier No. 1 in an ATD. I would have probably gone with a back-up early on with Barrasso as my No. 1, since you'll want to limit Barrasso to about 45-50 games.
*Herb Brooks is a very good coach and an excellent strategist. A good pick for this team.

Ottawa Silver 7
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/5/5e/250px-Silver7.jpg
Coach: Herb Brooks
Goaltending Coach: Warren Strelow
Toe Blake (C) - Pat Lafontaine - Jaromir Jagr
Dany Heatley - Jason Spezza - Daniel Alfredsson (A)
Brian Propp - Ralph Backstrom - Brian Bellows
Bruce Stewart (A) - Charlie Burns - Cully Dahlstrom
x-Doru Tureanu

Nic Lidstrom (A) - Brian Rafalski
JC Tremblay - Steve Smith
Alex Smith - Chris Phillips
x-Garry Galley

Tom Barrasso
Evgeny Nabakov

Gibsons Finest
05-07-2008, 10:22 PM
General Manager: McLovin
Coach: Fred Shero
Captain: Ron Francis
Alternates: Howie Morenz, Wendel Clark

#17 Wendel Clark-#7 Howie Morenz-#11 Mike Gartner
#14 Dave Andreychuk-#10 Ron Francis-#9 Charlie Conacher
#27 Don McKenney-#16 Derek Sanderson-#19! Wilf Paiement
#4! Geoff Courtnall-#25 Thomas Steen-#8 Bobby Schmautz
#22! Jay Pandolfo, #26 Samuel Pahlsson

#21 Borje Salming-#3 Joe Hall
#20 Gary Suter-#33! Behn Wilson
#23 Mathieu Schneider-#6 Jack Crawford
#2! George McNamara

#30! Ed Belfour
#60 Jose Theodore


Powerplay
Unit 1: Andreychuk-Morenz-Conacher-Suter-Crawford
Unit 2: Clark-Francis-Gartner-Schneider-Salming

Penalty Kill
Unit 1: Sanderson-McKenney-Suter-Hall
Unit 2: Francis-Paiement-Wilson-Salming


Well, here's the final roster. Bombs away.

God Bless Canada
05-08-2008, 12:56 AM
What the hey, one more....

*It might be the most talented team in the draft. Two lines that can score at will. The fourth line can definitely contribute offensively, too. The defence can get involved in the scoring.
*You can't go wrong when you bring the Bentley's together. To stop them, you need players with speed and creativity to keep up with their skating and their minds. I don't know if Hextall is the guy to play with them. He has grit. But does he have enough grit? Or would this team be better off just trying to outgun their opposition? Goals, goals, goals.
*If you could move Olmstead to RW, he'd be the perfect guy to play with the Bentley's.
*You can use Doug Bentley in all situations. Excellent two-way winger who dabbled at centre. Max is all offence, but good memory in putting him on the point on the PP.
*Trading for Cowley was a coup. A world-class playmaker to work with a grinder like Olmstead and an offensive force like Drillon. Goals, goals, goals.
*You have a high-scoring LW on the fourth line. And Bill Goldsworthy was a very talented winger. Frank McGee's a good scoring centre. Goals, goals, goals.
*One big concern: toughness up front. Detroit is going to need to play run-and-gun hockey to win. And they can score. They're also loaded with smarts. The third line is cerebral, but they aren't overly physical. Against tough, physical teams (we know there's a few of them in our division), the Eagles could be in trouble. Especially tough teams with mobility.
*One suggestion: put Olmstead on the first power play unit. You need someone who can control the front of the net. We saw with Montreal in the playoffs what happens if you don't. If the goalies can see the shot in this thing, they'll stop it.
*The Kelly-Bouchard tandem is top notch. You have one of the best two-way defencemen ever in Kelly, and one of the best defensive defencemen ever in Bouchard. Bouchard's presence will allow Kelly to take a few more chances. Kelly wasn't physical, but much like Bourque and Lidstrom, he was a rock in his own zone. One of my favourites.
*I think Boucher is the only guy on your team who isn't a strong skater. But he's smart and talented. He's partnered with the more mobile and bigger Si Griffis.
*Uh, who's your back-up. Not that it matters. There won't be much playing time behind Gardiner.
*I think Roger Neilson's out of place as coach of this team. Roger's teams were usually tough and defensive minded. Someone like a Sather or a Bob Johnson, even Pat Quinn, would be tailor-made for this squad.


Detroit Falcons
http://www.azhockey.com/images%20-%20logos/LogoNhlDetroitFalcons.jpg

Coach:Roger Neilson

Doug Bentley (A) - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

Leonard Kelly (A) - Émile Bouchard (C)
George Boucher - Si Griffis
Vitaly Davydov - Mike Grant
Glen Harmon

Frank Brimsek


Powerplay:
Doug Bentley - Bill Cowley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Leonard Kelly - Max Bentley

Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Gordie Drillon
George Boucher - Mike Grant

Penalty Kill:
Ed Westfall - Guy Carbonneau
Émile Bouchard - George Boucher

Jack Walker - Bert Olmstead
Vitaly Davydov - Leonard Kelly
(Red Kelly taking the faceoffs)

seventieslord
05-08-2008, 12:57 AM
Alexander Yakushev - Gilbert Perreault - Lanny McDonald (A)
Vladimir Krutov - Vincent Lecavalier - Pat Verbeek
Kirk Muller (A) - Metro Prystai - Marian Hossa
Dan Maloney - Ken Linseman - Pie McKenzie
Billy Gilmour, Peter McNab

Serge Savard (C)- Vladimir Konstantinov
Adam Foote - Steve Duchesne
Bob Goldham - Graham Drinkwater
Mattias Ohlund

Jacques Plante
John Ross Roach

coach:
Bob Johnson

PP1
Krutov-Perreault-McDonald-Savard-Duchesne

PP2
Yakushev-Lecavalier-Verbeek-Konstantinov-Drinkwater

PK1
Prystai-Muller-Foote-Goldham

PK2
Linseman-Hossa-Savard-Konstantinov

I appreciate the comments in the other discussion thread so far.

Do your worst!

EagleBelfour
05-08-2008, 01:46 AM
What the hey, one more....
*It might be the most talented team in the draft. Two lines that can score at will. The fourth line can definitely contribute offensively, too. The defence can get involved in the scoring.

Yes, I surprisingly went with a very offensive team. It's not the kind of teams that play deep in our ATD's, but I think my strong defensive and a great goaltender in Brimsek will help the purists to see my team on a different.

*You can't go wrong when you bring the Bentley's together. To stop them, you need players with speed and creativity to keep up with their skating and their minds. I don't know if Hextall is the guy to play with them. He has grit. But does he have enough grit? Or would this team be better off just trying to outgun their opposition? Goals, goals, goals.

Hextall was a gritty winger. Not gritty like Olmstead, but I think he can definitely protect the Bentley's if needed. One thing though: when the Bentley's will be on the ice, Butch Bouchard will also be. If there's any players to shake the opponent whenever they touch a star player, it's Bouchard. Easily one of the best ever to control send a message or two in the play or after the whistle. Few will mess with the Bentley's very long.

*If you could move Olmstead to RW, he'd be the perfect guy to play with the Bentley's.

Unfortunately, I don't think Olmstead ever played RW and Bryan Hextall never played on the left side. Those two will stay where they are.

*You can use Doug Bentley in all situations. Excellent two-way winger who dabbled at centre. Max is all offence, but good memory in putting him on the point on the PP.

I have no doubt my powerplay will be one of the best in this draft. Kelly and Bentley on the point will be lethal.

*Trading for Cowley was a coup. A world-class playmaker to work with a grinder like Olmstead and an offensive force like Drillon. Goals, goals, goals.

Definitely another line that can score goals. That's why I'm happy to also have a strong second duo on the backend.

*You have a high-scoring LW on the fourth line. And Bill Goldsworthy was a very talented winger. Frank McGee's a good scoring centre. Goals, goals, goals.

Not the kind of fourth line I builded in the past. Not really gritty (except Patrick), but very talented. Goldsworthy is perhaps a player I might use on the second line come playoff time. We'll see.

*One big concern: toughness up front. Detroit is going to need to play run-and-gun hockey to win. And they can score. They're also loaded with smarts. The third line is cerebral, but they aren't overly physical. Against tough, physical teams (we know there's a few of them in our division), the Eagles could be in trouble. Especially tough teams with mobility.

It's definitely a big flaw. However, no teams tough enough to put me in trouble have my scoring power and my defensive unit: it's my key to success against those type of thems. Scoring will come from almost any lines while I have the luxury to have one of the best defensive line in the draft to cover the other team biggest line. I would need a team with grit on every lines, TWO big scoring line with a great defensive unit and a good goaltender to really put me in trouble. In a 32 teams drafts, no teams come close to achieve a team like that. It's through I miss size and grit up front, but I have a lot of thing going my way to counter against teams wanting to abuse this flaw.

*One suggestion: put Olmstead on the first power play unit. You need someone who can control the front of the net. We saw with Montreal in the playoffs what happens if you don't. If the goalies can see the shot in this thing, they'll stop it.

My head started spinning with that very good idea of yours. I think I can manage to put him on my first PP unit: Doug will move down on my 2nd PP unit and since I don't want to play Olmstead too much, I'll scratch him from my 2nd PK unit and put Doug at center instead, taking the faceoffs. Great idea GBC :thumbu:

*The Kelly-Bouchard tandem is top notch. You have one of the best two-way defencemen ever in Kelly, and one of the best defensive defencemen ever in Bouchard. Bouchard's presence will allow Kelly to take a few more chances. Kelly wasn't physical, but much like Bourque and Lidstrom, he was a rock in his own zone. One of my favourites.

I really wanted a strong defensive presence with Kelly to allow him to play at his full potential offensively. I think I have the best first pairing unit in the draft. At least, one of the best for sure.

*I think Boucher is the only guy on your team who isn't a strong skater. But he's smart and talented. He's partnered with the more mobile and bigger Si Griffis.

That was the plan. I think it's a strong second pairing unit. My top-4 is one of the best in the draft. I was proud of my top-12 forward last draft, now I'm very proud of my top-6 at defense.

*Uh, who's your back-up. Not that it matters. There won't be much playing time behind Gardiner.

My two backups are Russian legend of the 1960's Viktor Konovalenko and Canadian legend of the 1890's Tom Paton, two underrated goaltenders and two legend. They won't play much, but if needed they can definitely do the job.

*I think Roger Neilson's out of place as coach of this team. Roger's teams were usually tough and defensive minded. Someone like a Sather or a Bob Johnson, even Pat Quinn, would be tailor-made for this squad.

Badger Bob was the coach I wanted all along. Too bad he was taken a 15 spot higher than him. Coach is probably my biggest problem as a GM. At the time, I think he was the BPA for me. I'm really thinking to drop my third goaltender to draft an assistant, but I'll think about it tomorrow.

Thanks for the review, it's appreciated!

arrbez
05-08-2008, 02:06 AM
THE INGLEWOOD JACKS

Hap Day

Hooley Smith - Sergei Fedorov - Guy Lafleur (A)
Bun Cook - Nels Stewart (A) - Jeremy Roenick
Joe Klukay - Pit Lepine - Jamie Langenbrunner
John Sorrell - Jack Marshall - Odie Cleghorn

Brian Leetch - Babe Siebert (C)
Art Coulter (A) - Jimmy Watson
Tommy Anderson - Ivan Tregubov

Eddie Giacomin
Normie Smith

Extras: Jason Smith, Jack Laviolette, Tony Granato
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PP1:
H. Smith - Stewart - Lafleur
Leetch - Fedorov

PP2:
Cook - Roenick - Cleghorn
Anderson - Tregubov

PK1:
Klukay - Lepine
Coulter - Watson

PK2:
H.Smith - Fedorov
Siebert - Anderson

*I'd just like to point out that my bottom pairing defense is very much interchangeable between Anderson, Tregubov, Smith, and Laviolette depending on match-ups. Laviolette would certainly see time on the PP, and Smith would probably see time on the PK accordingly.

God Bless Canada
05-08-2008, 03:13 PM
I rate physical play and team toughness very highly. I like your team's speed, smarts and skill. A speed advantage can be wiped out if you have players who can think the game. A speed and smarts advantage is much more difficult to overcome.

But there are a couple teams in our division (my team included) that can not only keep up with your boys' feet and their minds (Doug Mohns and Larry Robinson come to mind), but they'll push your team around, too. That's where the physical play enters the fray. I like Hextall, but against our team, or Nalyd's team, or Kansas City, Hextall might not be tough enough to help the Bentley's in the offensive zone.

A guy like Mark Messier, who has the speed, smarts and toughness that I mentioned earlier, could pose serious problems for Max Bentley, and especially for Bill Cowley.

Yes, I surprisingly went with a very offensive team. It's not the kind of teams that play deep in our ATD's, but I think my strong defensive and a great goaltender in Brimsek will help the purists to see my team on a different.



Hextall was a gritty winger. Not gritty like Olmstead, but I think he can definitely protect the Bentley's if needed. One thing though: when the Bentley's will be on the ice, Butch Bouchard will also be. If there's any players to shake the opponent whenever they touch a star player, it's Bouchard. Easily one of the best ever to control send a message or two in the play or after the whistle. Few will mess with the Bentley's very long.



Unfortunately, I don't think Olmstead ever played RW and Bryan Hextall never played on the left side. Those two will stay where they are.



I have no doubt my powerplay will be one of the best in this draft. Kelly and Bentley on the point will be lethal.



Definitely another line that can score goals. That's why I'm happy to also have a strong second duo on the backend.



Not the kind of fourth line I builded in the past. Not really gritty (except Patrick), but very talented. Goldsworthy is perhaps a player I might use on the second line come playoff time. We'll see.



It's definitely a big flaw. However, no teams tough enough to put me in trouble have my scoring power and my defensive unit: it's my key to success against those type of thems. Scoring will come from almost any lines while I have the luxury to have one of the best defensive line in the draft to cover the other team biggest line. I would need a team with grit on every lines, TWO big scoring line with a great defensive unit and a good goaltender to really put me in trouble. In a 32 teams drafts, no teams come close to achieve a team like that. It's through I miss size and grit up front, but I have a lot of thing going my way to counter against teams wanting to abuse this flaw.



My head started spinning with that very good idea of yours. I think I can manage to put him on my first PP unit: Doug will move down on my 2nd PP unit and since I don't want to play Olmstead too much, I'll scratch him from my 2nd PK unit and put Doug at center instead, taking the faceoffs. Great idea GBC :thumbu:



I really wanted a strong defensive presence with Kelly to allow him to play at his full potential offensively. I think I have the best first pairing unit in the draft. At least, one of the best for sure.



That was the plan. I think it's a strong second pairing unit. My top-4 is one of the best in the draft. I was proud of my top-12 forward last draft, now I'm very proud of my top-6 at defense.



My two backups are Russian legend of the 1960's Viktor Konovalenko and Canadian legend of the 1890's Tom Paton, two underrated goaltenders and two legend. They won't play much, but if needed they can definitely do the job.



Badger Bob was the coach I wanted all along. Too bad he was taken a 15 spot higher than him. Coach is probably my biggest problem as a GM. At the time, I think he was the BPA for me. I'm really thinking to drop my third goaltender to draft an assistant, but I'll think about it tomorrow.

Thanks for the review, it's appreciated!

God Bless Canada
05-08-2008, 03:31 PM
*Is this the draft in which the veteran fan, and maybe the most respected GM in the whole damn thing, finally takes that next step and wins it all? There's a lot to like...
*First line is one of the most dangerous, maybe the most dangerous, in the draft. Top-10 all-time players at their respective positions in Jackson and Mikita. And guys who aren't easily intimidated. Aggressive and tough to deal with. Nedomansky, I believe, is the biggest guy on the line, yet he's the least physical. Like Yakushev, a guy who uses his size to his advantage more from a skill perspective than a hitting perspective.
*There are two players who should always be on a certain team: Lehman for raleh, and Litzenberger for pappy.
*One trait I noticed with all three second line forwards: all of them played multiple positions, including centre. It's a great advantage. I like versatility a lot. Can't remember a scoring line, since I've been in the draft, that had it.
*pappy, I think the biggest difference I've seen in our drafts together is a greater willingness to have a checking line. You have two in this draft, but they can also chip in offensively.
*I talk about "what if" picks. Balfour certainly fits the bill. I think he would be a top two line grinder if not for the cancer, because he came in at the time in which he would have still been young enough to capitalize on the inflated numbers from expansion. But he did enough in his short career to justify selecting him as a rugged fourth line winger.
*That fourth line will be very, very tough to play against.
*The defence is one of the best in the draft. Pilote is an ace. Brewer is sort of a poor man's Pilote - skill and toughness in a small frame. I had Pilote as a No. 1, Brewer as a high-end No. 2 and White as a lower-end No. 2. Anytime you can get three defencemen good enough to be top-pairing guys, you're smiling.
*Colville gives you your traditional player who can player forward or defence. You've always got one: Clapper, Mohns, Colville, etc.
*I'm guessing that Barkley showed you enough in his brief career to warrant picking him as a No. 6?
*Rayner's a bottom-tier No. 1, but he's not going to hurt you. He'll steal you a game here and there. But you don't need a goalie to steal you a series. Not with your talent on the ice, and not with the coach on your team. If you do have to rely on Rayner that much, your team has underachieved, and if you are relying on Rayner to steal you games in an ATD context, you're in trouble.



Buffalo Bisons

Coach: Dick Irvin
Asst coach & Trainer:Lloyd Percival

Busher Jackson-Stan Mikita(A)-Vaclav Nedomansky
Alex Delvecchio-Tod Sloan-Eddie Litzenberger(C)
Don Marshall-Fleming Mackell-Jerry Toppazzini
Johnny Wilson-Orland Kurtenbach-Murray Balfour
Bill Red Hay

Bill White-Pierre Pilote (A)
Carl Brewer-Neil Colville
Frank Patrick-Doug Barkley
Pat Egan

Chuck Rayner
Gerry McNeil

PP#1
Busher Jackson-Stan Mikita-Vaclav Nedomansky
Frank Patrick-Pierre Pilote

pp#2
Alex Delvecchio-Tod Sloan-Eddie Litzenberger
Carl Brewer-Neil Colville

pk#1
Don Marshall-Jerry Toppazzini
Bill White-Pierre Pilote

pk#2
Johnny Wilson-Fleming Mackell
Carl Brewer-Neil Colville

Jungosi
05-08-2008, 03:49 PM
Dickie Moore - Joe Primeau - Dino Ciccarelli
Bernie Nicholls - Adam Oates - Mark Recchi
Johnny Gottselig - Bob Bourne - Gary Dornhoefer
Don Maloney - Bob Gracie - Ron Duguay
Dave Brown , Marty Walsh

Bobby Orr - Craig Ludwig
Nikolai Sologubov - Ted Green
Bucko McDonald - Normand Rocherfort
Tomas Jonnson

Chuck Gardiner
Alex Conell

Coach : Jacques Demers

BlueBleeder
05-08-2008, 05:50 PM
Some short reviews.

The Jets:
Good balance of scoring and toughness up front.
Very good checking line. Will help win close games.

Red Wings:
I like the team toughness.
Agree with GBC on the coaching questionmark.

Silver Seven
I really like the 1st line, should score alot of goals.
Not sold on the second line, but I like the 3rd line.

Miners:
Really like your top pairing, can chip in the offense and play very solid D.
Not sure about the second line, don't think they will score often. Solid defensivly though.
Love your 3rd line.

Falcons:
Wow, very good group of forwards. On all four lines.
Defense is very solid too.
Very strong team,

Leaf Lander
05-08-2008, 06:56 PM
GM
Coach: Punch Imlach
Captain:Tedder Kennedy
Assistant:Scott Stevens
Assistant:Gary Roberts
Assistant:Mats Sundin
Assistant:George Armstrong

#7 Gary Roberts---#13 Mats Sundin------#22 Rick Vaive
#14 Stu Barnes ----- #11-Murray Oliver---#12 Peter Bondra
#25 Patrik Elias----#9 Teeder Kennedy ---- #10 George Armstrong
#18 Bob Davidson---#25 PeterZezel------#11 Bob Nevin
#71 Evgeni Malkin

#4 Scott Stevens---#4 Rob Blake
#21 Bobby Baun---#33 Al Iafrate
#18 Garth Boesch --#15 Tomas Kaberle
#2 Ian Turnbull

#30 Martin Brodeur
#31 Curtis Joseph
#1 Frank McCool

Power play Units
Squad 1
#25 Patrik Elias----#9 Tedder Kennedy---#12 Peter Bondra/#14 Stu Barnes
#4 Scott Stevens---#4 Rob Blake

Squad 2
#7 Gary Roberts---#13 Mats Sundin------#22 Rick Vaive/#71 Evgeni Malkin
#2 Ian Turnbull--#15 Tomas Kaberle

Penalty kill Units
Squad 1
#18 Bob Davidson---#11-Murray Oliver-----#10 George Armstrong
#4 Scott Stevens---#4 Rob Blake/#13 Mats Sundin

Squad 2
#14 Stu Barnes -----#25 PeterZezel------#11 Bob Nevin
#21 Bobby Baun---#18 Garth Boesch/#15 Tomas Kaberle

papershoes
05-08-2008, 07:05 PM
The St. Catharines Teepees

Coach: Al Arbour
Captain: Dave Keon
Alternates: Kevin Lowe, Darryl Sittler, Kris Draper

#11 Sweeney Schriner - #27 Darryl Sittler (A) - #10 Bill Mosienko
#19 Markus Naslund - #14 Dave Keon (C) - #17 Mike Foligno
#20 Bob Pulford - #33 Kris Draper (A) - #41! Rene Robert
Gordon Roberts - Frank Fredrickson - Paul MacLean
Dan Bain, Clint Smith

#7 Paul Coffey - #4 Kevin Lowe (A)
#3 Lionel Conacher - #5 Lennart Svedberg
Harry Mummery - Bert Corbeau
Doug Bodger

#1 Terry Sawchuk
Riley Hern

Power play units:
PP1: Markus Naslund - Darryl Sittler - Bill Mosienko - Paul Coffey - Lennart Svedberg
PP2: Sweeney Schriner - Frank Fredrickson - Mike Foligno - Lionel Conacher - Rene Robert

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Bob Pulford - Dave Keon - Lionel Conacher - Kevin Lowe
PK2: Mike Foligno - Kris Draper - Harry Mummery - Bert Corbeau


note: something came up and i need to head out of town this weekend. i'll begin assassinating line-ups, as well as posting my self-evaluation, once i return sometime on sunday.

nik jr
05-08-2008, 07:10 PM
Tommy Ivan

John Tonelli--(A)Wayne Gretzky--(C)Bill Cook
Vsevolod Bobrov--Bernie Federko--Rick Middleton
Don Marcotte--Steve Kasper--Rich Preston
Murray Murdoch--Phil Goyette--Tomas Sandstrom
Mickey Redmond

(A)Sprague Cleghorn--Jim Schoenfeld
Mark Howe--James Patrick
Bill Hajt--Mario Marois
Aleksandr Gusev

Harry Lumley
John Vanbiesbrouck
Miikka Kiprusoff

PP1:
Bobrov--Gretzky--Cook
Howe--Middleton

PP2:
Tonelli--Federko--Sandstrom
Cleghorn--Patrick

PK1:
Marcotte--Goyette
Cleghorn--Schoenfeld

PK2:
Tonelli--Middleton
Hajt--Howe

PK3:
Murdoch--Kasper
Patrick--Marois

pitseleh
05-08-2008, 07:13 PM
nik, I think it's a great idea moving Bobrov down to the second line. His goal scoring was very much based around his individual ability (and cherry-picking, to a certain extent). Tonelli is a much better fit with Gretz/Cook, giving them a dirty work/defensive conscience while Bobrov can control the puck/flow a lot more with lesser linemates.

BlueBleeder
05-08-2008, 07:47 PM
Some more short reviews

Buffalo:
Very solid team. I like the toughness and physicality of the forwards.
Top def pairs are very good.

Kansas City:
Nice blend of toughness and skill on the top lines.

RCF Flyers:
Won't be a high scoring unit, but very good two way players.
Defense is very good.
Lots of toughness.
I think Corson is a bit of a reach on the 2nd line.

Spitfire11
05-08-2008, 07:48 PM
*Biggest concern for your team is coaching. I like Babcock, and I know he's your guy, but if you want to bring him into the draft, do it as an assistant. Better coaches out there. And in your division, with so many good teams, coaching could be the difference between winning and losing.

Yeah, was afraid no one else would like Babcock so I took Skinner just in case. Although that might not help either as most have probably never heard of him before. Guess I'll switch them up anyways, although I think Babcock is better than everyone taken after him except maybe Tarasov.

vancityluongo
05-08-2008, 08:08 PM
thanks for the review on the Jets TC. Appreciate it.

GM
Coach: Punch Imlach
Captain:Tedder Kennedy
Assistant:Scott Stevens
Assistant:Gary Roberts
Assistant:Mats Sundin
Assistant:George Armstrong

#7 Gary Roberts---#13 Mats Sundin------#22 Rick Vaive
#14 Stu Barnes ----- #11-Murray Oliver---#12 Peter Bondra
#25 Patrik Elias----#9 Teeder Kennedy ---- #10 George Armstrong
#18 Bob Davidson---#25 PeterZezel------#11 Bob Nevin
#71 Evgeni Malkin

#4 Scott Stevens---#4 Rob Blake
#21 Bobby Baun---#33 Al Iafrate
#18 Garth Boesch --#15 Tomas Kaberle
#2 Ian Turnbull

#30 Martin Brodeur
#31 Curtis Joseph
#1 Frank McCool

Power play Units
Squad 1
#25 Patrik Elias----#9 Tedder Kennedy---#12 Peter Bondra/#14 Stu Barnes
#4 Scott Stevens---#4 Rob Blake

Squad 2
#7 Gary Roberts---#13 Mats Sundin------#22 Rick Vaive/#71 Evgeni Malkin
#2 Ian Turnbull--#15 Tomas Kaberle

Penalty kill Units
Squad 1
#18 Bob Davidson---#11-Murray Oliver-----#10 George Armstrong
#4 Scott Stevens---#4 Rob Blake/#13 Mats Sundin

Squad 2
#14 Stu Barnes -----#25 PeterZezel------#11 Bob Nevin
#21 Bobby Baun---#18 Garth Boesch/#15 Tomas Kaberle

-I like your all around balance LL. Good job changing up your lines, guys like Bondra and Elias are way more in place compared to before.

-Good first line, it was awesome as a 2nd line, but it's not bad as a top line either. All fairly physical players. Pretty fast overall too.

-I don't know much about him, but how would Bob Davidson fit in Barnes spot? There seemed to be a lot of people talking about how Davidson was a good pick. Barnes would be awesome as a fourth liner, although I don't think he's neccasarily bad on the second.

-Nice defense. Especially the top-4, and super especially the top pairing. Stevens-Blake is badass.

-I like Brodeur. I think he's great. So no questions about goaltending, it's solid.

pappyline
05-08-2008, 08:09 PM
*Is this the draft in which the veteran fan, and maybe the most respected GM in the whole damn thing, finally takes that next step and wins it all? There's a lot to like...
*First line is one of the most dangerous, maybe the most dangerous, in the draft. Top-10 all-time players at their respective positions in Jackson and Mikita. And guys who aren't easily intimidated. Aggressive and tough to deal with. Nedomansky, I believe, is the biggest guy on the line, yet he's the least physical. Like Yakushev, a guy who uses his size to his advantage more from a skill perspective than a hitting perspective.
*There are two players who should always be on a certain team: Lehman for raleh, and Litzenberger for pappy.
*One trait I noticed with all three second line forwards: all of them played multiple positions, including centre. It's a great advantage. I like versatility a lot. Can't remember a scoring line, since I've been in the draft, that had it.
*pappy, I think the biggest difference I've seen in our drafts together is a greater willingness to have a checking line. You have two in this draft, but they can also chip in offensively.
*I talk about "what if" picks. Balfour certainly fits the bill. I think he would be a top two line grinder if not for the cancer, because he came in at the time in which he would have still been young enough to capitalize on the inflated numbers from expansion. But he did enough in his short career to justify selecting him as a rugged fourth line winger.
*That fourth line will be very, very tough to play against.
*The defence is one of the best in the draft. Pilote is an ace. Brewer is sort of a poor man's Pilote - skill and toughness in a small frame. I had Pilote as a No. 1, Brewer as a high-end No. 2 and White as a lower-end No. 2. Anytime you can get three defencemen good enough to be top-pairing guys, you're smiling.
*Colville gives you your traditional player who can player forward or defence. You've always got one: Clapper, Mohns, Colville, etc.
*I'm guessing that Barkley showed you enough in his brief career to warrant picking him as a No. 6?*Rayner's a bottom-tier No. 1, but he's not going to hurt you. He'll steal you a game here and there. But you don't need a goalie to steal you a series. Not with your talent on the ice, and not with the coach on your team. If you do have to rely on Rayner that much, your team has underachieved, and if you are relying on Rayner to steal you games in an ATD context, you're in trouble.

GBC, thanks for the positive review.I am going to have to get busy doing some reviews

Regarding Barkley, yes I do remember him as a force out there. Big & tough & could score. Top goal scoring defenseman in 63-64 & finished 5th in Norris voting that year. I agree with gordie howe that barkley was on the verge of great things when his unfortunate eye injury occured. Interestingly, he was just edged out by Kent Dougalas for the calder in 62-63. Both were mid 20's Defencemen at a time whe defencemen rarely won the calder. Also in that era most D were well seasoned in the minors before they made it.

Evil Sather
05-08-2008, 08:49 PM
LL you took my suggestions! <3 you!

God Bless Canada
05-08-2008, 09:33 PM
*Another tough team to play against in our division.
*A better entry than your first foray into the draft, which had Dickie Moore, and then not much else for scoring ability. First line is very potent. Messier will come in handy playing against someone like Max Bentley or Marcel Dionne. He has the speed and the hockey sense to keep up with them. Messier is still one of the great standard-setters for skating ability.
*I remember when I had Kenny Wharram as a winger in the MLD. Those were the days. Excellent skill level and strong defensive presence, means that Messier and Shutt can do their thing offensively.
*I think Shutt's overrated, but he's one of the best garbage goal guys out there.
*Call the second line the Retro Line, with three early era stars. Punch Broadbent is up there for the toughest guys in the draft under 5'8".
*Love the Scotty Davidson pick. Considered by many to be the best player in the world in his two-year career. Worth noting: when Bill Cook entered the league, he was compared to Davidson.
*Jack Adams was a very nice addition as a 13th guy.
*A good blend of skill and toughness from the blue-line. Pratt, Stackhouse and Pospisil will be counted on to deliver the offence, although if you free up Tim Horton, he could be a factor. Especially as a shooter on the PP. Horton once had 16 points in the post-season.
*Bower is an outstanding playoff goalie who was really, really good in the regular season.
*Pete Green is up there with Tommy Gorman and Cecil Hart for the most underrated coaches in the draft.

Kansas City Scouts

Roster

Coach: Pete Green

Assistant Coach: Ted Nolan

Steve Shutt - Mark Messier (C) - Ken Wharram
Paul Thompson - Frank Foyston - Harry "Punch" Broadbent
Ross Lonsberry - Troy Murray - Alf Smith (A)
Gerard Gallant - Ryan Walter - Allan "Scotty" Davidson
Jack Adams



Tim Horton (A) - Frantisek Pospisil
Walter "Babe" Pratt - Barclay Plager
Ron Stackhouse - Barry Ashbee
Lloyd Cook

Johnny Bower
Ed Johnston

PP1: Thompson-Messier-Broadbent-Shutt-Horton
PP2: Smith-Foyston-Wharram-Pratt-Stackhouse
PK1: Lonsberry-Murray-Horton-Pospisil
PK2: Gallant-Walter-Plager-Ashbee

BlueBleeder
05-08-2008, 09:38 PM
St Louis Eagles


Head Coach: Hector "Toe" Blake
Captain : Maurice Richard
Alternates : Brian Sutter, Scott Mellanby

#8* Cy Denneny - #16 Elmer Lach - #9 Maurice "the Rocket" Richard (C)
#11 Brian Sutter (A) - #14 Ulf Nilsson - #7 Rod Gilbert
#17 Marcel Bonin - #10 Edgar Laprade - #6 Floyd Curry
#25 Tony McKegney - #77* Garry Unger - #19 Scott Mellanby (A)
#79 Pierre Turgeon

#00* Bill Quackenbush - #3* Ebbie Goodfellow
#12 Pat Stapleton - #55 Rob Ramage
#2 Bob Dailey - #4 Dave Ellett
#5 Bob Plager

#1 Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
#31* Roy "Shrimp" Worters
#29* Mike Karakas

Special Teams
PP #1
Denneny - Lach - Richard
Quackenbush - Goodfellow
PP #2
Sutter - Nilsson - Gilbert
Stapleton - Dailey
PK #1
Sutter - Laprade
Quackenbush - Ramage
PK #2
Bonin - Curry
Dailey - Goodfellow

Fire away

God Bless Canada
05-08-2008, 09:51 PM
This review jumps the line because this is a team I wanted to review for a while....
*This is easily LL's best entry since I've been in the ATD. Usually LL's teams are loaded with offensive talent, but their team concept is lacking. Not this time. LL has built a team. There weren't any "uh ohs." He didn't pick Tom Barrasso as a back-up; Geoff Courtnall for the fourth line; Darren McCarty for a defensive line; or Paul Maurice for the coach.
*I would go back to most of the original lines. Sundin's probably better suited to first line duty than Kennedy. Kennedy should definitely be ahead of Oliver. And Stu Barnes shouldn't be on the second line.
*Elias is very underrated defensively. He's been one of the best two-way forwards in the league. He can be mercurial at times, but I think for one year, he won't be on a collision course with Imlach.
*I had Armstrong and Nevin in my top 12 for defensive line RWs. You got both of them. Nevin was a terrific pick for that point in the draft.
*I'll be interested to see how Malkin does as the 13th forward. A new situation for him. See how he handles the reduced role. But it's a nice luxury to have.
*Good move in reuniting Brodeur-Stevens. I think you picked both of them a little early - not saying they were bad picks, but I'd never pick a goalie in the top 25, and Stevens aways goes too soon. (He's my favourite defenceman of all-time, BTW). But that communication and understanding between goalie and defenceman is a very important thing to have.
*Bob Baun had a lot of guts. Similar to his teammate Carl Brewer. Not big. But double-tough. Doesn't have Brewer's skill, but he had Brewer's heart.
*If there is going to be a clash between Imlach and a player (and that's the other thing, you have a team with much more character to play for Punch), it'll be Imlach-Iafrate. Iafrate's really inconsistent. He could be a difference maker. He had the potential to be a perennial strong Norris candidate. Or he could be your undoing.
*Imlach gets a bad rap. Was he tough, domineering and demanding, a real hard ass? Sure. But he won. He got results. If he was that bad of a coach, the Leafs of the 60s would have quit on him the first chance they got. But he got the most of that team. If your team has lots of character, you'll be fine with Punch behind the bench.

GM
Coach: Punch Imlach
Captain:Tedder Kennedy
Assistant:Scott Stevens
Assistant:Gary Roberts
Assistant:Mats Sundin
Assistant:George Armstrong

#7 Gary Roberts---#13 Mats Sundin------#22 Rick Vaive
#14 Stu Barnes ----- #11-Murray Oliver---#12 Peter Bondra
#25 Patrik Elias----#9 Teeder Kennedy ---- #10 George Armstrong
#18 Bob Davidson---#25 PeterZezel------#11 Bob Nevin
#71 Evgeni Malkin

#4 Scott Stevens---#4 Rob Blake
#21 Bobby Baun---#33 Al Iafrate
#18 Garth Boesch --#15 Tomas Kaberle
#2 Ian Turnbull

#30 Martin Brodeur
#31 Curtis Joseph
#1 Frank McCool

Power play Units
Squad 1
#25 Patrik Elias----#9 Tedder Kennedy---#12 Peter Bondra/#14 Stu Barnes
#4 Scott Stevens---#4 Rob Blake

Squad 2
#7 Gary Roberts---#13 Mats Sundin------#22 Rick Vaive/#71 Evgeni Malkin
#2 Ian Turnbull--#15 Tomas Kaberle

Penalty kill Units
Squad 1
#18 Bob Davidson---#11-Murray Oliver-----#10 George Armstrong
#4 Scott Stevens---#4 Rob Blake/#13 Mats Sundin

Squad 2
#14 Stu Barnes -----#25 PeterZezel------#11 Bob Nevin
#21 Bobby Baun---#18 Garth Boesch/#15 Tomas Kaberle

pitseleh
05-08-2008, 09:51 PM
I'd like to see Broadbent play with Messier. That line would need to come with a warning: "Watch Out For Flying Elbows".

God Bless Canada
05-08-2008, 10:06 PM
Some more short reviews

Buffalo:
Very solid team. I like the toughness and physicality of the forwards.
Top def pairs are very good.

Kansas City:
Nice blend of toughness and skill on the top lines.

RCF Flyers:
Won't be a high scoring unit, but very good two way players.
Defense is very good.
Lots of toughness.
I think Corson is a bit of a reach on the 2nd line.
In terms of offensive ability, your right, Corson is a reach. But in terms of the role we need from him, he isn't. We needed a guy who could play tough, work the corners and the boards, control the front of the net, and pick up the garbage generated by Lemaire and Larmer. Corson is also very good defensively, which compliments the two-way games of Lemaire and Larms. And from 1990-1998, he was close to a point-per-game in the playoffs.

Lemaire and Larmer weren't soft, and they were never intimidated or overwhelmed physically, but they weren't overly physical, either.

We looked at a lot of different options for the second line wing spot. A gunner like Mats Naslund or Brian Bellows. Grinders like Muller and Smyth. Lynn Patrick was the other guy on our list for that role at that point in the draft. But Patrick wasn't overlay physical for a man his size.

We were going to get a second line LW in the 9th round. When we traded up to get Mohns, we knew we would take a hit on the second line. (It didn't hurt that Bun Cook, the guy I wanted for that second line spot, was gone). But there wasn't a defenceman like Mohns on the board: a guy with the speed, toughness, size and smarts to play against the best forwards in the draft, and the talent to anchor the power play.

(Incidentally, Mohns could play that second line LW spot if needed, with Watson or Bowie sliding into the No. 6 d-man slot, but we acquired Mohns to be our No. 3 defenceman, and he's one of the best No. 3's in the draft).

We aren't a team that's going to win 6-5, but goal scoring won't be an issue. Schmidt's a game-breaker. Neely's a dominant goal scorer. Bucyk is a top-notch talent. Our second line can score. Especially in the playoffs. Rousseau and Russell give us some offensive ability from the lower lines.

I think our character, leadership and hockey sense are our greatest strengths. raleh and I had a very tough time determining the alternates beyond Schmidt. Day, Robinson, Bucyk, Neely, Lemaire, Larmer, McPhee, Morrow and Skov could all wear letters. Even Watson would make a great alternate. Our team has outstanding hockey sense. And we aren't lacking in mobility or toughness. That combination of mobility, toughness and hockey sense will come in handy against the skill and smarts of the Eagles, the toughness of the Fighting Saints, and the smarts and toughness of the Scouts.

Pwnasaurus
05-08-2008, 11:19 PM
I'd like to see Broadbent play with Messier. That line would need to come with a warning: "Watch Out For Flying Elbows".

Careful what you wish for ;)

Depending on matchups he just might. As for now we like Kenny up there to add some abrasion to the 2nd line.

pitseleh
05-09-2008, 02:47 AM
Nanaimo Clippers

GMs: pitseleh and Hockey Outsider
Head Coach: Jack Adams
Captain: Bobby Clarke
Alternate Captains: Viacheslav Fetisov, Lionel Hitchman, Ivan Hlinka

Reg Noble - Frank Boucher - Sergei Makarov
Woody Dumart - Bobby Clarke - Alexander Maltsev
Jiri Holik - Ivan Hlinka - Johnny Peirson
Ab McDonald - Vyacheslav Starshinov - Leo Labine
Tom Dunderdale, Helmut Balderis

Viacheslav Fetisov - Red Horner
Lionel Hitchman - Ott Heller
Lars-Erik Sjoberg - Red Dutton
Rod Seiling

Clint Benedict
Vladimir Dzurilla


PP1: Noble-Clarke-Makarov-Fetisov-Boucher
PP2: Dumart-Starshinov-Maltsev-Heller-Sjoberg

PK1: Clarke-Dumart
PK2: Boucher-Labine
PK3: Starshinov-McDonald
PK4: Holik-Peirson

All of our defensemen except Sjoberg will play on the PK.

Clippers Self-Evaluation

Strengths:

- Depth Down the Middle: Boucher and Clarke is one of the best 1-2 punches in the draft up the middle, and having Starshinov and Hlinka as depth on the team gives us arguably the best center depth in the draft. Further, all of those players were good to excellent two-way performers meaning they can be effective at both ends of the ice.

- Two-Way Play from Forwards: Makarov is the weakest link defensively amongst our forwards, but aside from him all of our forwards were known for being good to great defensive forwards. Players like Boucher, Noble, Clarke, and Dumart in the top-6 represent some of the strongest defensive players available in top-6 roles. They will give our defense a ton of help within our own zone and will limit scoring from the opposition. It also creates a matchup problem, as other teams won’t have a weak defensive line to throw out scoring lines against when they have the last change.

- Balanced Defensive Corps with Strong Depth: Our defense provides a strong balance between defensive awareness, offensive prowess, toughness, size, and mobility. Toughness is the biggest strength, with Sjoberg being the softest player, and even he was known as a guy who tried to throw his weight around (what little weight he did have). Horner, Hitchman, and Dutton were three of the toughest defensemen before WWII not named Shore or Cleghorn. Outside of toughness, our defense may not be near the top in anyone area, but overall it is solid top to bottom. Sjoberg, a very strong PP QB, and Dutton, a two-time WCHL first team all-star and two-time top-5 Hart candidate in the NHL, could be a lower end second pairing in a 32 team draft, IMO.

- Character and Leadership: Clarke is one of the top captains in NHL history. Players like Fetisov, Hitchman, Dutton, Hlinka, and Starshinov were very highly regarded for their strong leadership ability and character. Noble is the only free-spirit type, but he was also known for being a strong leader, and one of Jack Adams first moves as GM of Detroit was to bring him in to act in a leadership role on his team, showing that he had respect for Noble as a leader.

- Goaltending Depth: As you all probably know by now I’m a very big Benedict fan and think he’s a top-10 goalie of all time. Dzurilla gives us a very strong backup who can share the load during the regular season, leaving Benedict fresh and ready to go come playoffs.

Weaknesses:

- Top-End Defense: While Fetisov is a top-10 defenseman of all time (IMO), Horner is probably better suited as a top-end #3 than a #2, though he’s probably a top-2 defenseman in the sense of the draft (i.e. top 64 all-time). Hopefully the combination of strong defensive play from our forwards and overall defensive depth will be able to make up for this deficiency.

- Top-6 LWs: Both Noble and Dumart are better suited as average to above average second line LWs than a top line LW. Neither can be expected to produce at the level of a true top-line LW in an ATD context. That said, Boucher/Makarov/Clarke/Maltsev are all, IMO, top-20 players at their respective positions, and at worst top-30. In a 1a-1b type setup, they should be able to make up the scoring difference.

- Multi-Directional Bottom-6: It could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how you look at it, I guess, but I definitely deviated from my usual team structure this time around. Our top defensive line is also our second line, and hopefully that line will be able to take advantage of scoring lines that are weak defensively. But that leaves our bottom-six to be a mixture of good defense and good offense, though neither line is strong at one or the other. This may pose matchup problems depending on the team we are facing.

Best Picks

- Frank Boucher at 116. He could go 40 picks earlier and still be a good pick. With the run on defensemen, offensive forwards really fell, but Boucher should still go before some of the players he was picked after, IMO.

- Alexander Maltsev at 205. I had Maltsev in the top-120 for the HOH project, and getting a player of his offensive talent outside the top-200 is outrageous. From what I’ve seen and read about him, his two-way game is a bit underrated. He won’t be mixed up with Bobby Clarke, but he will contribute at both ends of the ice.

Worst Picks

It’s a bit tough to see until I get a better picture of some criticisms, but some that may come back and bite me:

- Woody Dumart at 237. I think it’s a decent position to take Dumart, but I may be kicking myself later if people don’t like Noble on the first line.

- Vladimir Dzurilla at 596. In a vacuum, Dzurilla was probably a good pick, but I missed out on Balon and Wilson, my top 2 choices for my fourth line left wing, because of it. I like McDonald, but it threw off the concept I wanted for that line in terms of toughness.

If anyone else who wants to tackle a review of the Clippers, I'd very much appreciate some more input.

Sturminator
05-09-2008, 03:23 AM
Dickie Moore - Joe Primeau - Dino Ciccarelli
Bernie Nicholls - Adam Oates - Mark Recchi
Johnny Gottselig - Bob Bourne - Gary Dornhoefer
Don Maloney - Bob Gracie - Ron Duguay
Dave Brown , Marty Walsh

Bobby Orr - Craig Ludwig
Nikolai Sologubov - Ted Green
Bucko McDonald - Normand Rocherfort
Tomas Jonnson

Chuck Gardiner
Alex Conell

Coach : Jacques Demers

Ok, Jungo, here goes. I think this is a well-balanced team with few real weaknesses. I agree with pit's advice to switch Oates and Primeau on the first and second lines, but besides that, the scoringlines look fine. Ciccarelli isn't a typical first liner, but the Oates/Moore combination should create a lot of opportunities for Dino to clean up in close. Nice two-way 1st line capable of playing in any game situation.

You didn't seem overly thrilled about drafting Mark Recchi when you took him, but the guy's career stands up quite well as a 2nd liner. He made the top-10 in points and assists on four seperate occasions and was a reasonably responsible 2-way player. The only concern I have about this line is that Nicholls is the only real goal-scorer. Bernie certainly had his moments playing with Gretzky (and to his credit, was a top-10 goalscorer once before Gretz showed up), but he's not really a guy I would want carrying a second line in goal-scoring. Nicholls and potential concerns about finishing on the second line are, in my opinion, the only real question about this team, because the rest of the unit is very solid.

The bottom lines are strong, diverse, and capable of playing effectively both ways. Johnny Gottselig seems to be a favorite of our German GMs. I don't see much reason of overanalyze the bottom-6 as the players are basically known commodities.

Again, I think pit may have a point about switching Green and Ludwig. One thing I will never understand is GMs who don't make a heavy investment in a #2 defenseman for Bobby Orr. As great as Bobby was, he can only cover half the ice, and if you want him on the ice for as long as he deserves to be (27+ minutes/night), it seems sensible to draft a defensive partner who is also worthy of those minutes and then lean on the top pairing. No one seems to do this. I criticized pit in the last draft for having a guy undeserving of huge TOI (McCrimmon) playing with Orr, and I guess that point should be made again. It's not a big deal, though. You've got the best player in the draft on defense and solid, balanced pairings all the way down. I consider Sologubov to be better than Ragulin, for what that's worth, in spite of their respective draft positions. Solo was much more dominant against 60's era competition than Ragulin ever was, and was a nice pick where you got him.

Sturminator
05-09-2008, 03:53 AM
Ok, here are your 2008 Springfield Isotopes.

The Springfield Isotopes
Home Ice: Duff Stadium
Coach: Mike Keenan
Captain: Sylvio Mantha
Assistant Captains: Bill Barber, Walt Tkaczuk

#77 Bill Barber (a) - #7 Norm Ullman - #9 Andy Bathgate
#3 Baldy Northcott - #81 Bobby Smith - #8 Teemu Selanne
#4 Hec Kilrea - #18 Walt Tkaczuk (a) - #15 John MacLean
#88 Curt Fraser - #71 Pit Martin - #88 Jim Pappin
#21 Camille Henry - #25 John Ogrodnick

#22 Brad Park - #2 Sylvio Mantha (c)
#33 Zdeno Chara - #1 Hod Stuart
#26 Dave Burrows - #10 Gilles Marotte
#44 Fredrik Olausson

#29 Ken Dryden
#41 Sean Burke

Notes:

- The team will play a left wing lock.

- During the regular season, Chara and Burrows will switch between the 2nd and 3rd pairings based on matchups, a scenario that will probably carry over into the playoffs. Burrows will get more minutes against fast teams while Chara will get more against big teams. Against big, fast teams, we will just have to play with 6 men on the ice.

- Sean Burke will dress in the playoffs only as insurance against flooding, tornadoes, plagues of locusts and other acts of nature. As he did in Montreal, Ken Dryden will start every playoff game.

Nalyd Psycho
05-09-2008, 04:12 AM
Random Thoughts on Teams:

The Winnipeg Jets:
-You've got the best active Captain as a sometimes alternate? Alternate captaincy between Potvin and Sakic sure, but if Sakic wears the "A", he should wear it every game.
-I don't dislike the players, but, I'm not sold on your 2nd or 3rd pairings as shutdown pairings. Seems a waste to use Pronovost/Potvin in that role.
-Best 3rd line in the draft.
-Never hear me say anything bad about Holecek, top 10 IMO. Moog should be a great back-up for him.
-Solid 1st line, but overall, your wings may lack playmaking ability.
-Your best team yet. I'm curious to see this roster in some head to head match-ups.

Detroit Red Wings:
-Adore the "Gingerbread Line" (At least that's what I'd call a line with that sort of leave opponents in the dust speed.) and protecting your stars is smart.
-Not a fan of the 1st d-pairing, but I am a fan of the 3rd. Decent roll, but no one I'd lean on. Although Neidermeyer is one of the few d-men who can hang with Taylor/Cournoyer.
-Great stack down the middle.
-Not too fond of Simpson as a 3rd liner. Watson-Shadrin-Phillips would be a more fearsome shutdown line.
-Hasek is a personal favourite.

Ottawa Silver 7:
-Solid 1st line, not sure if Laffy and Jagr work together as both are better with the puck than without.
-Not big on the 2nd line. And the 3rd line isn't much of a checking presence. Heatley-Spezza-Bellows won't downgrade the offense, but Propp-Backstrom-Alfreddson would be a more effective counter attack/checking line.
-Isn't it Bruce Stuart? (Great pick-up BTW.)
-Mentally a great defense, I have physical questions though. If the tactics are sound, could work though.
-Barasso is now a much better pick than before, since he can be a starter. Low end, but he gets the job done.

The Glace Bay Miners:
-Cashman, Hedburg and Lapointe/Larson should ensure than Esposito doesn't have to be the primary puck carrier, which is good. Not a great top unit. But your best player is able to play his game.
-Your team should be VERY difficult to score on.
-I really like Worsley, and this defence should make up for any short comings he has.
-You should be able to murder teams that take a lot of penalties, but, 5 on 5, your offense may be lacking.

Detroit Falcons:
-Scary good 1st pair (Not a fan of Butch as captain though, I really think his teams underperformed, but, that may just be me.
-Although your 2nd pairing is scary bad defensively. True two-way players will chew them up and spit them out like nicely seasoned sunflower seeds. I'd recommend preparing a good argument for Olmstead-McGee-Morris against some potential opponents. (and never, ever let Lynn Patrick take the ice with Cowley and Drillon, that's like asking opponents "Please score on me.")
-Dynamic 2nd pairing.
-Overall, you've got an amazing offensive team with just enough two-way/defensive players peppered in. Although, in certain match-ups, you may have to ride the defensively responsible players too hard.

Buffalo Bisons:
-Your first line scares me.
-Your second line bleeds character.
-If I have to criticize your forwards, I say this, I've never thought of Mackell as a checking liner, what evidence do you have that he can excel against opposition stars?
-Your defense is amazingly skilled. But not particularly fearsome. In a 7 game series, attrition may hurt them more than opponents.

Kansas City Scouts:
-Well balanced forward corps, Wharram is well protected with clutch linemates. Although, I feel obliged to let it be known that I loathe Messier.
-Solid but unspectacular defense corps. I like Pospisil getting props.
-The only flaw in your line-up is that nothing excites me.

OTTAWA RCAF FLYERS:
-Great first line, but I'm not sure how creative it is.
-IMO, essentially 3 checking lines. That will hurt scoring, on both sides of the ice. Team defense up front is near flawless. When Neely and Corson are your defensive "liabilities" up front, you're doing good.
-Not a huge Robinson fan, I think he can flake when not well protected. Fortunately you protect him well. A solid d-corps, but, not awe inspiring.
-I think Cheesy can be a bit unreliable. Good that you have an ole faithful as a back-up. But Cheesy has a tendency of getting hot at the right time...

Ok, that's it for now, more thoughts to come...

Sturminator
05-09-2008, 05:24 AM
Best Picks

- Frank Boucher at 116. He could go 40 picks earlier and still be a good pick. With the run on defensemen, offensive forwards really fell, but Boucher should still go before some of the players he was picked after, IMO.

- Alexander Maltsev at 205. I had Maltsev in the top-120 for the HOH project, and getting a player of his offensive talent outside the top-200 is outrageous. From what I’ve seen and read about him, his two-way game is a bit underrated. He won’t be mixed up with Bobby Clarke, but he will contribute at both ends of the ice.

Worst Picks

It’s a bit tough to see until I get a better picture of some criticisms, but some that may come back and bite me:

- Woody Dumart at 237. I think it’s a decent position to take Dumart, but I may be kicking myself later if people don’t like Noble on the first line.

- Vladimir Dzurilla at 596. In a vacuum, Dzurilla was probably a good pick, but I missed out on Balon and Wilson, my top 2 choices for my fourth line left wing, because of it. I like McDonald, but it threw off the concept I wanted for that line in terms of toughness.

If anyone else who wants to tackle a review of the Clippers, I'd very much appreciate some more input.

As you said, questions about Reg Noble as a 1st line LW will pop up. The biggest problem I see with Nanaimo's first line is a lack of size and grit. Frank Boucher may not be as small as Pelletier lists him, but he's not going to be mistaken for a mucker anytime soon, and Makarov is a known softie. The grittiest player on this line is probably the 5'8" 180 lb. Reg Noble. Noble's size has to be adjusted a bit based on era, but still, he's average to below average in size.

Your prevailing philosophy with this team seems to have been something very close to my own: build a squad that plays two-way hockey on every line and don't worry about complicated line matching, etc. With that in mind, Noble - Boucher - Makarov looks fairly vulnerable to bigger first lines that can cycle the puck.

I think you overrate Maltsev somewhat by placing him in the top 120. I think he was clearly excellent value where you got him and I had him as the top RW on my board (with Gilbert) for a long time before your pick, but placing him in the top-120 seems a bit of a stretch. Maltsev has a great deal of career value - he was a Soviet League all-star alongside Starshinov in 1970 and then alongside Makarov in 1980 - but in terms of peak value, I don't think he compares well to the players in the range you're mentioning. In a 32 team draft, I think Maltsev is probably a 5th/6th rounder and a strong second liner. He certainly shouldn't fall into the seventh below a number of the RWs taken ahead of him. I've got him somewhere on the fringe of the top-150, for what it's worth.

The only real question about Maltsev is size/toughness. I know you've got that well covered with Clarke/Dumart on the 2nd line, but it should be addressed. Maltsev was 5'9" 174 lbs. in the 70's, which makes him small by the standards of any era, and he was criticized after the 1972 Summit Series (in which he scored no goals) by the Soviet press for being unable to adapt to the physical play of the Canadians. Physical checkers who can keep up with Maltsev's skating may give him some problems.

In Maltsev's defense, he played quite well in later Summit meetings and doesn't seem to have lacked toughness or determination. It could be that 72 was simply a rude awakening to Canadian hockey for him. As far as his two-way play is concerned, I've never gotten a satisfactory answer on this point. He is often described as a very "versatile" player, but this seems to have more to do with his ability to play any forward position than with his defensive abilities. I've never seen a specific description of his defensive game, for better or worse.

This is picking nits on Maltsev (who I feel is pretty consistently undervalued in this draft), though. He's in the upper eschelon of second line RWs in the draft and whatever questions there might be about his toughness and defensive play are well answered by Clarke and Dumart.

pitseleh
05-09-2008, 11:45 AM
I appreciate the response Sturm.

As you said, questions about Reg Noble as a 1st line LW will pop up. The biggest problem I see with Nanaimo's first line is a lack of size and grit. Frank Boucher may not be as small as Pelletier lists him, but he's not going to be mistaken for a mucker anytime soon, and Makarov is a known softie. The grittiest player on this line is probably the 5'8" 180 lb. Reg Noble. Noble's size has to be adjusted a bit based on era, but still, he's average to below average in size.

I'd disagree about the size thing. Outside of an outlier like Harry Mummery, 5'8, 180 was quite big for a player who had a peak from 1917-1924. His height was average, but 180 was quite heavy, and he's described as a 'fireplug' of a player. Other forwards with good size who played tough styles during that era include Gordie Roberts (5'11, 180), Punch Broadbent (5'7, 183), Frank Frederickson (5'11, 180), and Duke Keats (5'11, 195).

I think you overrate Maltsev somewhat by placing him in the top 120. I think he was clearly excellent value where you got him and I had him as the top RW on my board (with Gilbert) for a long time before your pick, but placing him in the top-120 seems a bit of a stretch. Maltsev has a great deal of career value - he was a Soviet League all-star alongside Starshinov in 1970 and then alongside Makarov in 1980 - but in terms of peak value, I don't think he compares well to the players in the range you're mentioning. In a 32 team draft, I think Maltsev is probably a 5th/6th rounder and a strong second liner. He certainly shouldn't fall into the seventh below a number of the RWs taken ahead of him. I've got him somewhere on the fringe of the top-150, for what it's worth.

Maybe I do overrate him a bit, but he's generally seen as the best Soviet forward after Kharlamov, Mikhailov, Makarov, and Firsov. Maybe I'm preaching to the converted, but much like Yakushev he didn't have the privilege of playing on Red Army, but he managed to put up what is probably the best career of players who didn't play for Red Army (MVP, Scoring Title, 6 All-Star selections) going up against Boris Mikhailov in his prime for those All-Star selections. His international resume outside of the '72 Summit Series is strong as well. To put up those numbers with against the best competition at your position is quite remarkable.

The only real question about Maltsev is size/toughness. I know you've got that well covered with Clarke/Dumart on the 2nd line, but it should be addressed. Maltsev was 5'9" 174 lbs. in the 70's, which makes him small by the standards of any era, and he was criticized after the 1972 Summit Series (in which he scored no goals) by the Soviet press for being unable to adapt to the physical play of the Canadians. Physical checkers who can keep up with Maltsev's skating may give him some problems.

In Maltsev's defense, he played quite well in later Summit meetings and doesn't seem to have lacked toughness or determination. It could be that 72 was simply a rude awakening to Canadian hockey for him. As far as his two-way play is concerned, I've never gotten a satisfactory answer on this point. He is often described as a very "versatile" player, but this seems to have more to do with his ability to play any forward position than with his defensive abilities. I've never seen a specific description of his defensive game, for better or worse.

I think size would be an issue for any Soviet player comparing them purely based on era. Mikhailov (5'9, 170), Petrov (5'9, 160), Kharlamov (5'8, 165), and Firsov (5'9, 155), are all roughly from the same era. The defensemen (compared to some of the giants in the NHL) are somewhat small too.

His later play is what has definitely sold me on him. I've now seen some games from the '74 Summit Series and the '76 World Cup, and Maltsev was much better then than I remember him being in the '72 Summit Series (though it's been a while since I've seen it).

As for his defensive abilities, I'm sort of extrapolating from statements like you mentioned and 'he was the ultimate team player' combined with the footage I've seen. I wouldn't say he was outstanding defensively, but I don't think he's a liability either.

God Bless Canada
05-09-2008, 12:14 PM
Random Thoughts on Teams:

The Winnipeg Jets:
-You've got the best active Captain as a sometimes alternate? Alternate captaincy between Potvin and Sakic sure, but if Sakic wears the "A", he should wear it every game.
-I don't dislike the players, but, I'm not sold on your 2nd or 3rd pairings as shutdown pairings. Seems a waste to use Pronovost/Potvin in that role.
-Best 3rd line in the draft.
-Never hear me say anything bad about Holecek, top 10 IMO. Moog should be a great back-up for him.
-Solid 1st line, but overall, your wings may lack playmaking ability.
-Your best team yet. I'm curious to see this roster in some head to head match-ups.

Detroit Red Wings:
-Adore the "Gingerbread Line" (At least that's what I'd call a line with that sort of leave opponents in the dust speed.) and protecting your stars is smart.
-Not a fan of the 1st d-pairing, but I am a fan of the 3rd. Decent roll, but no one I'd lean on. Although Neidermeyer is one of the few d-men who can hang with Taylor/Cournoyer.
-Great stack down the middle.
-Not too fond of Simpson as a 3rd liner. Watson-Shadrin-Phillips would be a more fearsome shutdown line.
-Hasek is a personal favourite.

Ottawa Silver 7:
-Solid 1st line, not sure if Laffy and Jagr work together as both are better with the puck than without.
-Not big on the 2nd line. And the 3rd line isn't much of a checking presence. Heatley-Spezza-Bellows won't downgrade the offense, but Propp-Backstrom-Alfreddson would be a more effective counter attack/checking line.
-Isn't it Bruce Stuart? (Great pick-up BTW.)
-Mentally a great defense, I have physical questions though. If the tactics are sound, could work though.
-Barasso is now a much better pick than before, since he can be a starter. Low end, but he gets the job done.

The Glace Bay Miners:
-Cashman, Hedburg and Lapointe/Larson should ensure than Esposito doesn't have to be the primary puck carrier, which is good. Not a great top unit. But your best player is able to play his game.
-Your team should be VERY difficult to score on.
-I really like Worsley, and this defence should make up for any short comings he has.
-You should be able to murder teams that take a lot of penalties, but, 5 on 5, your offense may be lacking.

Detroit Falcons:
-Scary good 1st pair (Not a fan of Butch as captain though, I really think his teams underperformed, but, that may just be me.
-Although your 2nd pairing is scary bad defensively. True two-way players will chew them up and spit them out like nicely seasoned sunflower seeds. I'd recommend preparing a good argument for Olmstead-McGee-Morris against some potential opponents. (and never, ever let Lynn Patrick take the ice with Cowley and Drillon, that's like asking opponents "Please score on me.")
-Dynamic 2nd pairing.
-Overall, you've got an amazing offensive team with just enough two-way/defensive players peppered in. Although, in certain match-ups, you may have to ride the defensively responsible players too hard.

Buffalo Bisons:
-Your first line scares me.
-Your second line bleeds character.
-If I have to criticize your forwards, I say this, I've never thought of Mackell as a checking liner, what evidence do you have that he can excel against opposition stars?
-Your defense is amazingly skilled. But not particularly fearsome. In a 7 game series, attrition may hurt them more than opponents.

Kansas City Scouts:
-Well balanced forward corps, Wharram is well protected with clutch linemates. Although, I feel obliged to let it be known that I loathe Messier.
-Solid but unspectacular defense corps. I like Pospisil getting props.
-The only flaw in your line-up is that nothing excites me.

OTTAWA RCAF FLYERS:
-Great first line, but I'm not sure how creative it is.
-IMO, essentially 3 checking lines. That will hurt scoring, on both sides of the ice. Team defense up front is near flawless. When Neely and Corson are your defensive "liabilities" up front, you're doing good.
-Not a huge Robinson fan, I think he can flake when not well protected. Fortunately you protect him well. A solid d-corps, but, not awe inspiring.
-I think Cheesy can be a bit unreliable. Good that you have an ole faithful as a back-up. But Cheesy has a tendency of getting hot at the right time...

Ok, that's it for now, more thoughts to come...
Please explain the "Robinson can be a flake when not protected" comment. Are you talking about the guy who never missed the playoffs in his NHL career. The guy who won a Conn Smythe? The guy who, in 86, became the oldest defenceman since Tim Horton to be named to an all-star team? Waiting...

Keep in mind that he was 30 when he was named a second team all-star in 81. When you look at that Habs dynasty from the 70s, most of those players saw a significant drop in production and performance after they turned 30. Happened to Lafleur. Happened to Shutt. Lapointe's play tailed off after 30. Gainey wasn't the same in his 30s. Lambert was done at 31. Houle was done at 32. Tremblay was out of the league before he was 30. Don't know what would have happened to Dryden, he retired at 30.

Savard and Lemaire were two of the only players from that Habs dynasty to really sustain a high level of performance after they turned 30. Lemaire was 33 when he led the Habs in post-season scoring in 79, and then bolted to Europe. Savard was 34 when he was named an all-star (second team) for the only time in his career in 79.

I often talk about hockey age. The guys who play on the dynasties, like the Habs of the 70s and the Islanders and Oilers of the 80s, usually saw a big decline in performance after their 30th birthday, because they played so much hockey. Guys were 28 or 29, but the wear-and-tear of the post-seasons really hampered their effectiveness after they turned 30.

Incidentally, you also really underrate Milt Schmidt. Creativity isn't an issue for him. He was the best player to leave the NHL during the war years. That hurts his numbers. A point-per-game in those years before and after the war was like 120 to 150 points in the 80s. Schmidt did it twice. He's a mirror image of Bryan Trottier.

Evil Sather
05-09-2008, 01:43 PM
I think size would be an issue for any Soviet player comparing them purely based on era. Mikhailov (5'9, 170), Petrov (5'9, 160), Kharlamov (5'8, 165)

Mikhailov I have at 5'10" 170 (minor) and Petrov 6'0" 187 (large gap). Kharlamov is accurate.

Evil Sather
05-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Have at it boys. Feel like I built a really well balanced team that'll be hard to score on, re-united a 5 man group (hard to do), have grit coming out my ears, ace 1st and 3rd lines, and a damn good defense, especially that "2nd pairing". Love to hear a good deconstruction and breakdown.

Kootenay Ice

Coach: Anatoli Tarasov

Valeri Kharlamov - Vladimir Petrov - Boris Mikhailov
Dennis Hull - Cooney Weiland - Barney Stanley
Yvon Lambert - Don Luce - Cecil Dillon
Steve Vickers - Mike Ricci - Kevin Dineen
ex. Mike Rogers, Barry Pederson

Valeri Vasiliev - Vladimir Lutchenko
Raymond Bourque - Fern Flaman
Terry Harper - Ron Greschner
ex. Steve Chiasson

Mike Richter
Al Rollins

pappyline
05-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Random Thoughts on Teams:

Buffalo Bisons:
-Your first line scares me.
-Your second line bleeds character.
-If I have to criticize your forwards, I say this, I've never thought of Mackell as a checking liner, what evidence do you have that he can excel against opposition stars?
-Your defense is amazingly skilled. But not particularly fearsome. In a 7 game series, attrition may hurt them more than opponents.

..

As far as Mackell goes, I could turn it around and ask you. what evidence do you have that Mackell wasn't strong defensively? I remember him as being pretty good both ways. Besides I don't really have a specific checking line. I have 4 lines of strong 2 way players. Mackell was on the small side so I would likely have Kurtenbach check big centres like Beliveau & Lemieux.. I will match up lines depending on who we are playing.

My defense may not be the toughest in the draft but Pilote, Brewer, Barkley are quite physical.

pitseleh
05-09-2008, 01:50 PM
Mikhailov I have at 5'10" 170 (minor) and Petrov 6'0" 187 (large gap). Kharlamov is accurate.

Oops, I'm an idiot. I typed in 'Petrov hockeydb' into Google and it gave me Oleg instead of Vladimir. :help:

God Bless Canada
05-09-2008, 02:02 PM
*Before I begin the hacking, props to McLovin for taking over the team at the start of the draft. Coming in cold, for the first time in two-and-a-half years, is not an easy thing to do. Especially with so many new GMs who you don't have a read on. And you've quietly assembled a pretty good team that might win a round or two.
*Morenz is a guy who keeps getting more and more love. He finished 10th in the HOH Top 100 Vote 2. A smart move putting Clark on that top line. Clark isn't a speedster, but he's more likely to keep up with Morenz and Gartner - two of the fastest skaters in the draft - than Big Dave. Morenz doesn't need anyone to open up room for him, but with Clark there, Morenz will have even more room to operate.
*Francis and Conacher will be one of the most dangerous second line tandems in the draft. Francis might not be as good of a playmaker as Joe Primeau, but he'll give Conacher lots of great feeds.
*Not sure about Paiement as a third liner. Schmautz is definitely better defensively, and a better skater.
*Thomas Steen is one of the best fourth line centres in the draft. Not a fan of Courtnall as a fourth line guy at all, unless you want it to be a third scoring line. If that's the case, keep him there. If you want to play this line against an opposition scoring line, swap Courtnall for Pandolfo. Courtnall's a liability in a defensive role in this draft. Love the guy, owned the best restaurant ever (Double Overtime, which was across the street from BC Place Stadium until he sold it), but he's either a second/third scoring line LW, or he's not of much use.
*Salming's a solid No. 1 d-man. Not a stellar No. 1, but you can get 23-25 minutes per game from him. Hall might be a bit of a reach as a top pairing guy, but Salming, Hall and Suter are all very tough defencemen for your top three.
*I don't think people give Suter enough credit. I think he's good enough to be a good 2/3 defenceman. Good enough to play as a No. 2, but best-suited to being a top-notch No. 3. The guy did it all. Maybe they haven't forgiven him for the Gretzky and Kariya incidents.
*Belfour's good enough to be a No. 1. He's a bottom tier No. 1, but he's a No. 1. A bit of a nut, but he stole quite a few series in his career. Once he got out of Chicago, he was usually excellent in the playoffs. Not a fan of Theodore as a back-up, for both consistency and attitude reasons.
*A lot of guys will do very well with Fred Shero as the coach. He loved his tough hockey. Guys like Conacher, Schmautz, Clark, Morenz, Sanderson, even Steen had a mean streak. Just ask Steve Yzerman. Not sure how Shero will react to Mike Gartner's game, though.

General Manager: McLovin
Coach: Fred Shero
Captain: Ron Francis
Alternates: Howie Morenz, Wendel Clark

#17 Wendel Clark-#7 Howie Morenz-#11 Mike Gartner
#14 Dave Andreychuk-#10 Ron Francis-#9 Charlie Conacher
#27 Don McKenney-#16 Derek Sanderson-#19! Wilf Paiement
#4! Geoff Courtnall-#25 Thomas Steen-#8 Bobby Schmautz
#22! Jay Pandolfo, #26 Samuel Pahlsson

#21 Borje Salming-#3 Joe Hall
#20 Gary Suter-#33! Behn Wilson
#23 Mathieu Schneider-#6 Jack Crawford
#2! George McNamara

#30! Ed Belfour
#60 Jose Theodore


Powerplay
Unit 1: Andreychuk-Morenz-Conacher-Suter-Crawford
Unit 2: Clark-Francis-Gartner-Schneider-Salming

Penalty Kill
Unit 1: Sanderson-McKenney-Suter-Hall
Unit 2: Francis-Paiement-Wilson-Salming


Well, here's the final roster. Bombs away.

God Bless Canada
05-09-2008, 02:24 PM
*I like Fedorov's two-way game to play with Lafleur. I don't like Fedorov's emotion, intensity or consistency. He should have been one of the top 50 players ever, but his penchant for extended periods of apathetic play will be the biggest dent in his legacy. That's why the selection of the multi-purpose and skilled Hooley Smith will be so important.
*Loved the Bun Cook pick. First time that he hasn't been a steal. He was the guy I wanted to round out our checking line. A guy with Cook's speed, creativity, toughness and defensive play should be picked when you got him.
*Klukay's really underrated. But would someone please explain the fascination with Jaime Langenbrunner to me. He's a great playoff performer. But if you're expecting the Lepine line to be the shutdown line, since there isn't enough offence to be a scoring line, and there isn't enough toughness to be a crash line, I think Langenbrunner could be exposed. Good player. Great post-season scorer. Good defensive player. But not good enough to play a shutdown role, especially against some of the teams in your division.
*Good to see Odie Cleghorn return to the ATD. I think he was on the Speaker's MLD team last time.
*I thought you picked Leetch too soon. I understand what you were trying to accomplish. I just think there are better defencemen out there. No way Leetch should go before Bill Gadsby or Sprague Cleghorn. You want a speedy, puck-moving defenceman? Take King Clancy.
*Regardless, Leetch is a definite No. 1 defenceman, and the Leetch-Siebert tandem might be the fastest in the draft.
*Coulter-Watson will likely be one of the toughest pairings to play against in the draft. Good shutdown pairing. Combines Coulter's rough-around-the-edges play and Watson's smart, steady style.
*Tommy Anderson is very underrated. He was consistently one of the top-scoring defencemen in the league even before most of the best went to war.
*Giacomin's the best to never win a Cup. Will he finally win something in this draft?
*Hap Day is an excellent coach. Great leader, great hockey mind (Trust us on that one). Knows what it takes to win. Not sure how he'll do handling Fedorov's moods, but you've given him a lot of good to work with.



THE INGLEWOOD JACKS

Hap Day

Hooley Smith - Sergei Fedorov - Guy Lafleur (A)
Bun Cook - Nels Stewart (A) - Jeremy Roenick
Joe Klukay - Pit Lepine - Jamie Langenbrunner
John Sorrell - Jack Marshall - Odie Cleghorn

Brian Leetch - Babe Siebert (C)
Art Coulter (A) - Jimmy Watson
Tommy Anderson - Ivan Tregubov

Eddie Giacomin
Normie Smith

Extras: Jason Smith, Jack Laviolette, Tony Granato
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PP1:
H. Smith - Stewart - Lafleur
Leetch - Fedorov

PP2:
Cook - Roenick - Cleghorn
Anderson - Tregubov

PK1:
Klukay - Lepine
Coulter - Watson

PK2:
H.Smith - Fedorov
Siebert - Anderson

*I'd just like to point out that my bottom pairing defense is very much interchangeable between Anderson, Tregubov, Smith, and Laviolette depending on match-ups. Laviolette would certainly see time on the PP, and Smith would probably see time on the PK accordingly.

monster_bertuzzi
05-09-2008, 03:54 PM
Vancouver Millionares

Coach: Pat Quinn
Captain: Randy Carlyle
Assistant captain: Peter Forsberg
Assistant captain: Brett Hull
Assistant captain: Mike Ramsey

Valeri Kamensky-Peter Forsberg-Brett Hull
Pete Mahovlich-Henri Richard-Joe Mullen
Alexei Kovalev-Pierre Larouche-Stan Smyl
Kirk Maltby-Sergei Nemchinov-Tiger Williams

spares: Datsyuk, Ferraro

Randy Carlyle-Ken Morrow
Sergei Gonchar-Mike Ramsey
Dave Babytch-Robert Svehla

spare: Kjell Samuelsson

Patrick Roy
Jean Sebastien Giguere

God Bless Canada
05-09-2008, 06:45 PM
*Jungosi, you seemed to be down on your team a few days ago. I don't know why. For a first-time GM who seemed to have little help from his co-GM (didn't see much of LAX), this is a very good entry, capable of winning a round or two.
*The first line is very, very good. Moore-Primeau makes for two-thirds of a dandy first line. I think Primeau might be better suited to second-line duty, but he's a dynamic playmaker and a two-way centre for Moore. Ciccarelli is a nice bookend, although I think that Recchi might be the better pick. Recchi's grit and corner work are underrated.
*I think Nichols played C throughout his career. Don't remember him much as an LW. He had a lot of grit, and in a 32-team draft, would be a bottom-tier second line C. After his first year, he was over a point-per-game in the playoffs.
*One thing about your top two lines is that nobody is one-dimensional. That's a big advantage in terms of match-ups. And the skill level is very good.
*Bob Bourne is one of the most underrated forwards in the draft, and an excellent playoff performer. Dornhoefer will be a valuable guy for his ability to play tough and bring some diversity to that line.
*Happiest man in the draft will be Ron Duguay's running buddy in the bar. Whoever hangs out with him will likely get one or two models over the course of the year. And Duguay's wife still looks great.
*Scoring will never be an issue with Bobby Orr around. He did play some with Ted Green, and I'd try to play them together.
*Not sure about the ability of the defence to advance the puck beyond Orr and Solugobov. Those two guys are great. Not sure about the other four. Green was a defensive guy. Ludwig was a defensive guy. Rochefort was a defensive guy. McDonald, except for a couple years, wasn't much of an offensive force.
*Gardiner is excellent for a No. 1. He can steal a game or two. Connell's the best back-up in the draft. If Gardiner falters, or gets hurt, you can plug Connell in at any time, and not suffer much of a drop-off.
*Not a big Demers fan. I think he's a little overrated around here.

Dickie Moore - Joe Primeau - Dino Ciccarelli
Bernie Nicholls - Adam Oates - Mark Recchi
Johnny Gottselig - Bob Bourne - Gary Dornhoefer
Don Maloney - Bob Gracie - Ron Duguay
Dave Brown , Marty Walsh

Bobby Orr - Craig Ludwig
Nikolai Sologubov - Ted Green
Bucko McDonald - Normand Rocherfort
Tomas Jonnson

Chuck Gardiner
Alex Conell

Coach : Jacques Demers

God Bless Canada
05-09-2008, 07:05 PM
*I have my concerns about the first line. Schriner's a star, no doubt. Sittler's a good No. 1. Mosienko is better suited to second line duty. Excellent speed, but toughness is an issue. Against some of the tougher teams, or those that can match your speed, there could be issues. An no, I wouldn't move Foligno up to the first line. I like Foligno, but not as a first line guy.
*I have doubts about Foligno's ability as a second liner, but as a crash-and-bang grinder, he'll be fine. Naslund will have to carry the offensive load for this line, at least in the regular season. Keon was a good regular season producer, but I think he could do more for offensive production.
*Third line has excellent speed. I never thought much of Robert's defensive ability, but it's actually pretty good. Very good hockey sense from all three players, and Robert gives this line a bit of a game-breaking presence.
*Fourth line is very well built. Some good offensive ability, strong toughness and aggressiveness.
*Coffey is probably your biggest game-breaker. His speed and creativity are legendary. He's one of the few defencemen who can go end to end. He can score from anywhere in the offensive zone. And he has his old buddy Kevin Lowe to watch his back.
*Svedberg also has excellent offensive ability.
*I'm a big Lionel Conacher fan. Yet I can't help but think he goes a little too soon in this thing. I'd love to get him one day, just not with a fourth or fifth round pick.
*Terry Sawchuk is one of the top three goalies in the draft. This team has some offensive issues, but with Sawchuk, and some of the talent in front of him, giving up bushel loads of goals won't be an issue.
*Al Arbour is one of the top three coaches ever, too. Coaching won't be an issue for these guys, either. Arbour's presence could provide a real life in a close series.

The St. Catharines Teepees

Coach: Al Arbour
Captain: Dave Keon
Alternates: Kevin Lowe, Darryl Sittler, Kris Draper

#11 Sweeney Schriner - #27 Darryl Sittler (A) - #10 Bill Mosienko
#19 Markus Naslund - #14 Dave Keon (C) - #17 Mike Foligno
#20 Bob Pulford - #33 Kris Draper (A) - #41! Rene Robert
Gordon Roberts - Frank Fredrickson - Paul MacLean
Dan Bain, Clint Smith

#7 Paul Coffey - #4 Kevin Lowe (A)
#3 Lionel Conacher - #5 Lennart Svedberg
Harry Mummery - Bert Corbeau
Doug Bodger

#1 Terry Sawchuk
Riley Hern

Power play units:
PP1: Markus Naslund - Darryl Sittler - Bill Mosienko - Paul Coffey - Lennart Svedberg
PP2: Sweeney Schriner - Frank Fredrickson - Mike Foligno - Lionel Conacher - Rene Robert

Penalty killing units:
PK1: Bob Pulford - Dave Keon - Lionel Conacher - Kevin Lowe
PK2: Mike Foligno - Kris Draper - Harry Mummery - Bert Corbeau


note: something came up and i need to head out of town this weekend. i'll begin assassinating line-ups, as well as posting my self-evaluation, once i return sometime on sunday.

EagleBelfour
05-09-2008, 07:09 PM
WHICH LINEUP IS THE BEST? WHICH ONE IS THE WORST?

- Considering I would play those lines all regular season and playoff long

#1
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

#2
Bert Olmstead - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Doug Bentley - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

#3
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Bill Goldsworthy
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Gordie Drillon
Bernie Morris

#4
Bert Olmstead - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Doug Bentley - Bill Cowley - Bill Goldsworthy
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Gordie Drillon
Bernie Morris

#5
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Gordie Drillon
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

#6
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Bill Goldsworthy
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Ed Westfall
Bernie Morris

nik jr
05-09-2008, 07:16 PM
i like your original line-up, #1, the best.

worst i guess is #4. i like the bentley's together, and i think you need drillon on the 2nd line for scoring, and i don't think he provides anything on the 4th line.

God Bless Canada
05-09-2008, 07:52 PM
Last review of the day...

*This is one of my favourite teams of the draft. If you had to ask me for a darkhorse, this would be it. They're in a tough division, but this is a very, very well-rounded team.
*nik has a lot of options for his first two lines. Of course, when you start with 99, you're going to be in great shape. Cook is a magnificent running buddy. I think it's even better than the Gretzky-Bathgate tandem we saw in the last draft. Cook might be a bit of a drop-off from Bathgate, but he brings that toughness and corner presence.
*Federko-Middleton is the start of a strong second line. Middleton is a very reliable and skilled two-way RW. One of the best not in the HHOF.
*So what to do with the LWs? If you have Bobrov on the first line, you get a game-breaking offensive winger to play with Gretzky. Another one. But you only have one puck on the ice at a time. Tonelli's all-round game is on the second line, which compliments Federko and Middleton perfectly. If you put Tonelli on the first line, you put another rough-and-tumble scorer on Gretzky's line. A very good idea. And you put a game-breaker on the second line, spreading the offence around and giving Bobrov a greater role in the offence. But you lose that physical presence on the second line, and that could be a hinderance. Ah, choices. Pick your poisons, nik.
*Don Marcotte is an outstanding defensive line LW who can also contribute offensively. Rich Preston is a nice find who maybe gets a little underrated due to the amount of time in the WHA. (A league not known for defence). If there's one concern, I'd like to see a little more of a physical presence on the third line.
*In fact, outside of Cook and Tonelli, there just isn't a lot of toughness up front. At least not clean, tough play. Sandstrom wracked up penalties, but that was for stickwork, not consistent physical play. And Sandstrom pissed off his teammates because he took so many dirty penalties, and refused to be accountable by fighting.
*Lots of smart players up front, and good defensive guys like Middleton and Marcotte, but a little more toughness would be a boost.
*You have a strong No. 1 defenceman in Cleghorn, and another defenceman (Howe) who is good enough to be a bottom-end No. 1. That's a really nice luxury to have. You can count on for Cleghorn to munch up 25-30 minutes a game, and Howe to give you around 25.
*The nice thing about Cleghorn is his defensive game and toughness. You don't need a defensive presence for him. I'd consider putting Patrick with him, and Schoenfeld to play with Howe to give that tandem a little more toughness.
*If Hajt was a forward, he'd fit in perfectly with your team: very smart, very steady, reliable in his own zone, but not overly physical. The classic case of a defenceman who plays a good game when you don't notice him.
*Mario Marois is the anti-Hajt: he's skilled, he's strong defensively, he's rough-and-tumble, but he wasn't much of a factor in his own zone.
*The things I said earlier about Rayner and Giacomin could also fit Lumley. A bottom-end No. 1, but he won't cost you a series. If you don't win, it'll be because your team isn't tough enough for the second and third lines.
*A perfect team for Tommy Ivan. His teams always played a strong two-way game. He's an excellent strategist, and very level-headed, which will come in handy for a guy like Sandstrom.

Tommy Ivan

John Tonelli--(A)Wayne Gretzky--(C)Bill Cook
Vsevolod Bobrov--Bernie Federko--Rick Middleton
Don Marcotte--Steve Kasper--Rich Preston
Murray Murdoch--Phil Goyette--Tomas Sandstrom
Mickey Redmond

(A)Sprague Cleghorn--Jim Schoenfeld
Mark Howe--James Patrick
Bill Hajt--Mario Marois
Aleksandr Gusev

Harry Lumley
John Vanbiesbrouck
Miikka Kiprusoff

PP1:
Bobrov--Gretzky--Cook
Howe--Middleton

PP2:
Tonelli--Federko--Sandstrom
Cleghorn--Patrick

PK1:
Marcotte--Goyette
Cleghorn--Schoenfeld

PK2:
Tonelli--Middleton
Hajt--Howe

PK3:
Murdoch--Kasper
Patrick--Marois

God Bless Canada
05-09-2008, 07:56 PM
WHICH LINEUP IS THE BEST? WHICH ONE IS THE WORST?

- Considering I would play those lines all regular season and playoff long

#1
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

#2
Bert Olmstead - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Doug Bentley - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

#3
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Bill Goldsworthy
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Gordie Drillon
Bernie Morris

#4
Bert Olmstead - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Doug Bentley - Bill Cowley - Bill Goldsworthy
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Gordie Drillon
Bernie Morris

#5
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Gordie Drillon
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

#6
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Bill Goldsworthy
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Ed Westfall
Bernie Morris
You're thinking too much, EB. You need to keep the Bentley's together. It's a big missed opportunity if they aren't partnered up.

Second-guessing yourself at this point only hurts your team. It makes it look like you're responding too much to the critics, and you're thinking too much. Your guys deserve better.

Hedberg
05-09-2008, 08:36 PM
Victoria Salmon Kings


Starting Goalie: Billy Smith
Backup: Roberto Luongo

Bill Gadsby - Harry Howell
Sergei Zubov - Teppo Numminen
Jiri Bubla - Brian Engblom

Vic Hadfield - Denis Savard - Mike Bossy
Rod Brind'amour - Sid Abel - Reggie Leach
Tomas Holmstrom - Chris Drury - Larry Aurie
Dirk Graham - Bobby Carpenter - Terry O'Reilly

Spares: G Olaf Kolzig, D Kenny Jonsson, F Ron Sutter
Coach : Harry Sinden

Captain: Sid Abel
Assistants: Dirk Graham, Rod Brind'Amour, Harry Howell

PP1
Vic Hadfield- Sid Abel - Mike Bossy
Bill Gadsby - Sergei Zubov

PP2
Tomas Holmstrom - Denis Savard - Reggie Leach
Harry Howell - Teppo Numminen

PK1
Rod Brind'amour - Sid Abel
Bill Gadsby - Harry Howell

PK2
Chris Drury - Dirk Graham
Sergei Zubov - Teppo Numminen

arrbez
05-09-2008, 08:46 PM
*I like Fedorov's two-way game to play with Lafleur. I don't like Fedorov's emotion, intensity or consistency. He should have been one of the top 50 players ever, but his penchant for extended periods of apathetic play will be the biggest dent in his legacy. That's why the selection of the multi-purpose and skilled Hooley Smith will be so important.
*Loved the Bun Cook pick. First time that he hasn't been a steal. He was the guy I wanted to round out our checking line. A guy with Cook's speed, creativity, toughness and defensive play should be picked when you got him.
*Klukay's really underrated. But would someone please explain the fascination with Jaime Langenbrunner to me. He's a great playoff performer. But if you're expecting the Lepine line to be the shutdown line, since there isn't enough offence to be a scoring line, and there isn't enough toughness to be a crash line, I think Langenbrunner could be exposed. Good player. Great post-season scorer. Good defensive player. But not good enough to play a shutdown role, especially against some of the teams in your division.
*Good to see Odie Cleghorn return to the ATD. I think he was on the Speaker's MLD team last time.
*I thought you picked Leetch too soon. I understand what you were trying to accomplish. I just think there are better defencemen out there. No way Leetch should go before Bill Gadsby or Sprague Cleghorn. You want a speedy, puck-moving defenceman? Take King Clancy.
*Regardless, Leetch is a definite No. 1 defenceman, and the Leetch-Siebert tandem might be the fastest in the draft.
*Coulter-Watson will likely be one of the toughest pairings to play against in the draft. Good shutdown pairing. Combines Coulter's rough-around-the-edges play and Watson's smart, steady style.
*Tommy Anderson is very underrated. He was consistently one of the top-scoring defencemen in the league even before most of the best went to war.
*Giacomin's the best to never win a Cup. Will he finally win something in this draft?
*Hap Day is an excellent coach. Great leader, great hockey mind (Trust us on that one). Knows what it takes to win. Not sure how he'll do handling Fedorov's moods, but you've given him a lot of good to work with.

Thanks for the review, very much appreciated.

I've been as critical as anyone of Fedorov's hot-and-cold play in the regular season. But I think his playoff resume really saves his legacy (I wouldn't have chosen him otherwise). While it's not ideal to have a guy who takes shifts off in the regular season, it's better than the other way around, and it's comforting to know that he always came to play in the playoffs.

As for Langenbrunner, I just really like what he brings to the table. Not spectacular in any way, but he does everything very well. Good speed, good size, he can grind, he can score (especially in the playoffs). I have however given some thought to moving Cleghorn to my second line, moving Langenbrunner to the 4th, and putting Roenick on the third line to add some offensive firepower to go with Lepine, as well as what I think could be a devastating forecheck with Klukay. My only concern is whether people feel Cleghorn is good enough for second line duty. Thoughts?

pappyline
05-09-2008, 09:25 PM
WHICH LINEUP IS THE BEST? WHICH ONE IS THE WORST?

- Considering I would play those lines all regular season and playoff long

#1
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

#2
Bert Olmstead - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Doug Bentley - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

#3
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Bill Goldsworthy
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Gordie Drillon
Bernie Morris

#4
Bert Olmstead - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Doug Bentley - Bill Cowley - Bill Goldsworthy
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Gordie Drillon
Bernie Morris

#5
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Gordie Drillon
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Ed Westfall
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Bill Goldsworthy
Bernie Morris

#6
Doug Bentley - Max Bentley - Bryan Hextall Sr.
Bert Olmstead - Bill Cowley - Gordie Drillon
Jack Walker - Guy Carbonneau (A) - Bill Goldsworthy
Lynn Patrick - Frank McGee - Ed Westfall
Bernie Morris
#1 Looks good to me. Maybe one of the best forward lineups in the draft.

EagleBelfour
05-09-2008, 09:29 PM
Second-guessing yourself at this point only hurts your team. It makes it look like you're responding too much to the critics, and you're thinking too much. Your guys deserve better.

Isn't that the goal of the game. I need opinions to refine myself and become even more knowledgeable as a hockey historian. I will always be proud to second guess myself on any comments made in my direction and always second guess the others comment made by an individual. Taking any facts, stats, conception as the pure and tough truth isn't what I want to do, because that mean you could in theory know everything about the sport.

It shouldn't affect my team as I'm not playing on the ice with them and even if it affect me: who care? Winning the thing would be great, but I won't stop arguing, asking and second guessing myself only to win the ATD. Anyway, I understand your point GBC, but for me the important thing is to learn more than it's to win.

Diving Pokecheck*
05-09-2008, 09:58 PM
#9 Roy Conacher (A) - #19 Joe Sakic (A) - #21 Tim Kerr
#8 Alexander Ovechkin - #22 Buddy O'Connor - #10 Owen Nolan
#11 Jean-Paul Parise - #25 Doug Jarvis (A) - #14 Claude Provost
#12 Paul Henderson - #39 Doug Weight - #88 Ken Randall
Scratches: C, #32 Tom Lysiak, RW, #25 Willi Plett

#3 Marcel Pronovost (A) - #5 Denis Potvin (C)
#4 William "Flash" Hollett - #34 Jamie Macoun
#6 Calle Johansson - #8 Clarence "Taffy" Abel
#7 Gennady Tsygankov

#2 Jiri Holocek
#35 Andy Moog
Very good character spread all-around. Sakic and Potvin are both excellent captains at any level.
Conacher-Ovechkin may be the best LW punch in the draft. Ovie is just a kid, but he will probably be named to 3 consecutive 1rst all-star teams at the end of this year, as well as winning a Rocket Richard and Art Ross trophies.
I do not see Doug Weight as a 4th line center. He would be better as a 13th forward.
Moog is a good backup.
The defense is good, but I have heard that Flash Hollett was somewhat of a liability defensively.

MXD
05-09-2008, 10:08 PM
Very good character spread all-around. Sakic and Potvin are both excellent captains at any level.
Conacher-Ovechkin may be the best LW punch in the draft. Ovie is just a kid, but he will probably be named to 3 consecutive 1rst all-star teams at the end of this year, as well as winning a Rocket Richard and Art Ross trophies.
I do not see Doug Weight as a 4th line center. He would be better as a 13th forward.
Moog is a good backup.
The defense is good, but I have heard that Flash Hollett was somewhat of a liability defensively.

I'd say Weight and Lysiak are pretty much equal actually, and I'd still give an advantage to Weight. Weight's defensive game is underrated, and both were heavily geared toward playmaking. Only I think Weight has to be considered better than Lysiak in this aspect. Actually, Henderson - Weight - Randall could score their share of goals all the while being pretty decent defensively. Both Weight and Lysiak could be tougher players, but guys with their skills and more toughness more go like 400th than 700th.

John Flyers Fan
05-09-2008, 10:27 PM
:Philadelphia Flyers
est. 1967

Coach - Don Cherry

Kevin Stevens - Joe Nieuwendyk - Dale Hawerchuk
Illya Kovalchuk - Doug Gilmour "A"- Theo Fleury
Ryan Smyth - Michael Peca - Mike Keane
Sergei Brylin - Dave Poulin "A"- Randy McKay

Donald Brashear, Danny Briere


Eddie Shore "C" - Eddie Gerard
Chris Pronger - Ulf Samulesson
Mattias Norstrom - Kimmo Timmonen

"Moose" Dupont

Bernie Parent
Pelle Lindebergh

PP units

Kovalchuk - Nieuwendyk - Hawerchuk
Shore - Gerard

Nieuwendyk will be in front, where is perhaps the best deflector of pucks of all-time. Hawerchuk will be the set-up man down low. Shore the QB up top, and Kovalchuk ready and waiting to unleash one-time bombs.

Stevens - Gilmour - Fleury
Timonen - Pronger

Gilmour working down low behind the net and Fleury on the half boards. Timonen and Pronger both can move the puck and have excellent hard low shots. Stevens will be in front causing all kinds of problems for the goalie.

PK Units

Peca & Keane, Poulin & Fleury, Gilmour & Nieuwendyk We'll primarily use our top 4 defenseman to kill penalties, but all out defenseman are capable. Bernie Parent is the ultimate penalty killer.

Down a goal with time runnning out

Stevens - Kovalchuk - Gilmour - Nieuwendyk
Shore - Hawerchuk

Up a goal with time running out

Poulin - Peca - Keane
Shore - Pronger



We don't have a dominant #1 line, but more of a 1A & 1B set-up. Our 3rd and 4th lines are both excellent defensively, and combined with our grouping of defenseman and Parent, should be the toughest team in the league to score against.

This team is built to win, tough, physical low scoring games, and physically wear teams down over the course of long series. Those of weak mind and will, should not bother showing up at the Spectrum. The Philly Flu has returned.

Roger's Pancreas*
05-09-2008, 10:58 PM
ES
Ted Lindsay (C) - Frank Nighbor - Jack Darragh
Al Secord - Brent Sutter - Rick Tocchet
Steve Thomas - Keith Primeau (A) - Trevor Linden
Gaetan Duchesne - Keith Acton - Paul Holmgren
ex. Rick Kehoe

Brad McCrimmon (A) - Al MacInnis
Herb Gardiner - Phil Russell
Ed Van Impe - Ed Jovanovski
ex. Mark Tinordi, Dion Phaneuf

George Hainsworth
Ron Hextall

coach Billy Reay

PP 5-on-4 no.1
Ted Lindsay - Frank Nighbor - Jack Darragh
Herb Gardiner - Al MacInnis

PP 5-on-4 no.2
Al Secord - Brent Sutter - Rick Tocchet
Brad McCrimmon - Ed Jovanovski

PP 4-on-3 no.1
Ted Lindsay - Brent Sutter
Brad McCrimmon - Ed Jovanovski

PP 4-on-3 no.2
Keith Primeau - Trevor Linden
Herb Gardiner - Al MacInnis

PK 4-on-5 no.1
Keith Primeau - Trevor Linden
Ed Van Impe - Phil Russell

PK 4-on-5 no.2
Frank Nighbor - Gaetan Duchesne
Brad McCrimmon - Al MacInnis

PK 3-on-5 no.1
Keith Primeau
Ed Van Impe - Phil Russell

PK 3-on-5 no.2
Frank Nighbor
Brad McCrimmon - Al MacInnis

Extra player no.1
Rick Tocchet

Extra player no.1
Trevor Linden

ck26
05-09-2008, 11:52 PM
My lineup hasn't been assassinated yet, so get to it gentlemen! A couple of tactical notes:

1) We're splitting regular season games between Broda and Ranford right down the middle, 41 apiece. We're a little concerned about Broda burning out during the 82-game season, and we want to keep both him fresh and Ranford interested.

2) Coach Jacques Lemaire really likes to shuffle lines, so we'll do that a lot. With the exception of Robitaille/Dionne, all combos are up in the air. If Pronovost can't hack it on the 1st line, we'll try Hejduk and Lehtinen up there. If Thornton vanishes, we'll slide Richards or Kozlov up the lineup. Bottom line, if you really like our combinations, don't give us much credit, because they'll probably flex. If you don't like our combos, don't knock them too much because they too will change.

3) We don't have one true "shutdown" line ... when at home against a big line, our standard answer will be Lehtinen + Harvey.

Coach: Jacques Lemaire
Rotating Captains: Broten, Daneyko, Ferguson, Harvey, Pronovost, Robitaille and Skrudland

Luc Robitaille // Marcel Dionne // Jean Pronovost
Dick Duff // Joe Thornton // Hakan Loob
John Ferguson // Neal Broten // Jere Lehtinen
Red Berenson // Brian Skrudland // Brad Richards
Slava Kozlov // Milan Hejduk

Doug Harvey // Leo Boivin
Tom Johnson // Charlie Huddy
Marty McSorley // Ken Daneyko
Larry Hillman

Turk Broda // Bill Ranford

Robitaille//Dionne//Thornton
Harvey//Huddy

Duff//Richards//Loob
Johnson//Boivin

Lehtinen//Skrudland
Harvey//Johnson

Pronovost//Broten
Boivin//Daneyko

arrbez
05-10-2008, 01:58 AM
ES
Ted Lindsay (C) - Frank Nighbor - Jack Darragh
Al Secord - Brent Sutter - Rick Tocchet
Steve Thomas - Keith Primeau (A) - Trevor Linden
Gaetan Duchesne - Keith Acton - Paul Holmgren
ex. Rick Kehoe

Brad McCrimmon (A) - Al MacInnis
Herb Gardiner - Phil Russell
Ed Van Impe - Ed Jovanovski
ex. Mark Tinordi, Dion Phaneuf

George Hainsworth
Ron Hextall

coach Billy Reay

PP 5-on-4 no.1
Ted Lindsay - Frank Nighbor - Jack Darragh
Herb Gardiner - Al MacInnis

PP 5-on-4 no.2
Al Secord - Brent Sutter - Rick Tocchet
Brad McCrimmon - Ed Jovanovski

PP 4-on-3 no.1
Ted Lindsay - Brent Sutter
Brad McCrimmon - Ed Jovanovski

PP 4-on-3 no.2
Keith Primeau - Trevor Linden
Herb Gardiner - Al MacInnis

PK 4-on-5 no.1
Keith Primeau - Trevor Linden
Ed Van Impe - Phil Russell

PK 4-on-5 no.2
Frank Nighbor - Gaetan Duchesne
Brad McCrimmon - Al MacInnis

PK 3-on-5 no.1
Keith Primeau
Ed Van Impe - Phil Russell

PK 3-on-5 no.2
Frank Nighbor
Brad McCrimmon - Al MacInnis

Extra player no.1
Rick Tocchet

Extra player no.1
Trevor Linden

Just a couple quick thoughts (and I won't lie, I just got home from the bar and I'm kinda drunk):

Pro's:
*First off, I really like the toughness of your squad.
*MacInnis-McCrimmon will not be a pleasant pairing to play against. Not the most spectacular D corps, but very solid throughout.
*Nice defensive presence throughout the forward lines as well.
*Coaching and goaltending are nice, and won't be an issue

Con's:
*The one big concern for me would be your offense. Your first line is solid offensively, but after that I have real concerns about the secondary scoring. You have 3 great supporting players on the second line, but nobody I would call a go-to guy as far as offense.


Conclusion:
Tough defense-first squad that's going to have to win their games in low-scoring fashion.

Nalyd Psycho
05-10-2008, 05:14 AM
As far as Mackell goes, I could turn it around and ask you. what evidence do you have that Mackell wasn't strong defensively? I remember him as being pretty good both ways. Besides I don't really have a specific checking line. I have 4 lines of strong 2 way players. Mackell was on the small side so I would likely have Kurtenbach check big centres like Beliveau & Lemieux.. I will match up lines depending on who we are playing.

My defense may not be the toughest in the draft but Pilote, Brewer, Barkley are quite physical.

-I've actually never encountered any info on Mackell's defense at all. All I really no is some clutch playoff performances.
-Your defense is tough and physical, just not intimidating.

Please explain the "Robinson can be a flake when not protected" comment. Are you talking about the guy who never missed the playoffs in his NHL career. The guy who won a Conn Smythe? The guy who, in 86, became the oldest defenceman since Tim Horton to be named to an all-star team? Waiting...

Keep in mind that he was 30 when he was named a second team all-star in 81. When you look at that Habs dynasty from the 70s, most of those players saw a significant drop in production and performance after they turned 30. Happened to Lafleur. Happened to Shutt. Lapointe's play tailed off after 30. Gainey wasn't the same in his 30s. Lambert was done at 31. Houle was done at 32. Tremblay was out of the league before he was 30. Don't know what would have happened to Dryden, he retired at 30.

Savard and Lemaire were two of the only players from that Habs dynasty to really sustain a high level of performance after they turned 30. Lemaire was 33 when he led the Habs in post-season scoring in 79, and then bolted to Europe. Savard was 34 when he was named an all-star (second team) for the only time in his career in 79.

I often talk about hockey age. The guys who play on the dynasties, like the Habs of the 70s and the Islanders and Oilers of the 80s, usually saw a big decline in performance after their 30th birthday, because they played so much hockey. Guys were 28 or 29, but the wear-and-tear of the post-seasons really hampered their effectiveness after they turned 30.

Incidentally, you also really underrate Milt Schmidt. Creativity isn't an issue for him. He was the best player to leave the NHL during the war years. That hurts his numbers. A point-per-game in those years before and after the war was like 120 to 150 points in the 80s. Schmidt did it twice. He's a mirror image of Bryan Trottier.
-Flake is a bad word to use. I just don't get what happened to Robinson. That he was a 2nd team all-star in '86 almost makes it worse. I get that he maybe overplayed himself during the dynasty and was burnt out. But seriously, burnt out from '81-'85? He went from one of the best d-men in the league, to top 5, to practically out of the top 10. And the early 80's were a transitional period for d-men. He should have continued being elite. But he wasn't? What happened? The only theory I can come up with is that he relies heavily on his partner.

-As for Schmidt, I think very highly of him, but I'd have the same question for Trottier. With the exception of Robinson, your offense seems to come from hockey sense, physical ability and guts. And you can do a lot with that. I'm just not sure your forwards are capable of surprising defenders. You'll have to outwork defenders for every point. Your team can do that, but given the length of these playoffs, will that haunt you?

Sturminator
05-10-2008, 10:32 AM
I'd disagree about the size thing. Outside of an outlier like Harry Mummery, 5'8, 180 was quite big for a player who had a peak from 1917-1924. His height was average, but 180 was quite heavy, and he's described as a 'fireplug' of a player. Other forwards with good size who played tough styles during that era include Gordie Roberts (5'11, 180), Punch Broadbent (5'7, 183), Frank Frederickson (5'11, 180), and Duke Keats (5'11, 195).

The point here is not that Noble was small or a pushover, but that he's the biggest, strongest guy on the line. Projecting Noble's size to the modern game, he'd probably check in somewhere around 5'11" 210 lbs. That's a reasonable size and I don't see Noble as a guy who's going to get knocked off the puck, but I also don't think he's what you want in the primary space-making forward on a line with Boucher and Makarov.

Size is not everything. Teemu Selanne is 6'0" 205 lbs. - actually a lot more thickly built than some people realize. He's not a guy who gets knocked off the puck, but he's also not a guy who creates space. On the other hand, Bill Barber played at 6'0" 195 lbs. and was very good at making space because of his great strength. Is Noble more a Selanne or a Barber? The only account I've seen of his toughness is a description of him as "gritty" on the Red Wings site, though that comment immediately precedes a statement that he came back quickly from being whacked in the head with a stick. That is toughness, not physical strength.

The truly strong players from the prewar era are generally noted as such - Broadbent, Hooley Smith, Babe Siebert, etc. I've never seen Reg Noble described in such a way. I don't see him as a particularly small player or a physical liability, but I also don't see any reason to consider him a plus player physically. Noble is essentially neutral physically, Boucher is somewhat questionable and Makarov is relatively weak. You may want to consider switching Dumart and Noble because the first line, as constituted, looks to me like it could be ground down by strong lines with enough skill to possess the puck for long stretches on the cycle.

God Bless Canada
05-10-2008, 02:41 PM
*One of the best first lines in the draft. If we meet in the playoffs (there could be that possibility for the first round) we will have our hands full with the reformatted Punch Line. Denneny is pretty underrated in this thing. He's not as talented as Toe Blake, or as good defensively, but he's tougher. Richard's good for a bushel of big goals each year.
*Sutter is a perfect bookend to play with the speedy and skilled Nilsson and Gilbert. Sutter will work the corners and convert scoring chances from Nilsson and Gilbert.
*Not sure about Bonin as a third-line centre. I like him more in the fourth line role. But I like him the best for that role out of your LWs. Laprade and Curry are very, very good defensive players who will make life difficult for the opposition's best.
*Unger's one of the best fourth line centres in the draft. Smart, durable hard worker. I've made my comments about Mellanby before. He's probably good enough to play a fourth line role, but not ahead of someone like Ezinicki, Balfour or Nestorenko.
*Is Turgeon a little bit redundent with a guy like Nilsson on the team. You obviously want to add a little more scoring with the 13th spot, since your bottom six is pretty good, but I want a 13th forward who differentiates himself a little bit from my other players.
*I like your defence. I'm not certain about Quackenbush as a natural No. 1, I think he might be a guy who's better suited to No. 2 minutes. But you have to love his skill and smarts. A poor man's Nik Lidstrom, if you will.
*Goodfellow's a guy who keeps getting more respect each draft. Stapleton is a strong No. 3. I don't know about Ramage as a No. 4, I think he's better off logging third pairing limits. A Dailey-Ramage tandem could be difficult to play against, but I wouldn't be sold on Ellet at anything else beyond a No. 6.
*I like Thompson
*You will never, ever, be outcoached in a series with Toe Blake. You didn't get Blake as a player, but as a coach, with Richard (Lach was gone by the time Blake started coaching), you have that pivotal positive rapport between a coach and his star player.


St Louis Eagles


Head Coach: Hector "Toe" Blake
Captain : Maurice Richard
Alternates : Brian Sutter, Scott Mellanby

#8* Cy Denneny - #16 Elmer Lach - #9 Maurice "the Rocket" Richard (C)
#11 Brian Sutter (A) - #14 Ulf Nilsson - #7 Rod Gilbert
#17 Marcel Bonin - #10 Edgar Laprade - #6 Floyd Curry
#25 Tony McKegney - #77* Garry Unger - #19 Scott Mellanby (A)
#79 Pierre Turgeon

#00* Bill Quackenbush - #3* Ebbie Goodfellow
#12 Pat Stapleton - #55 Rob Ramage
#2 Bob Dailey - #4 Dave Ellett
#5 Bob Plager

#1 Cecil "Tiny" Thompson
#31* Roy "Shrimp" Worters
#29* Mike Karakas

Special Teams
PP #1
Denneny - Lach - Richard
Quackenbush - Goodfellow
PP #2
Sutter - Nilsson - Gilbert
Stapleton - Dailey
PK #1
Sutter - Laprade
Quackenbush - Ramage
PK #2
Bonin - Curry
Dailey - Goodfellow

Fire away

God Bless Canada
05-10-2008, 06:49 PM
*I like the first line. It's always good to see respect for the solid, smart, two-way play of Normie Ullman. Barber and especially Bathgate are excellent finishers for Ullman's playmaking ability. Watch out for Barber's dives. Sometimes he'll get called for it. Other times referees won't call plays on him.
*I really like Northcott. He was going to be our No. 2 LW if he was available. Not many guys can stickhandle like Smith; I don't know if any of them have Smith's size. Watch for Selanne in the playoffs.
*Smart move in keeping Tkaczuk to the third line. You need someone with a higher offensive ceiling for that second line role. (Don't know if you were serious or not when you said Tkaczuk would be on the second line). I think MacLean is better suited to fourth line duty, but he's tough and reliable defensively, and he was a consistent 40-goal threat before his knee injury.
*Martin's good for the fourth line role. Pappin and Fraser can take care of the toughness.
*Ogrodnick fits the role well for your 13th forward. He can slide into that second line role, and you can move Northcott to No. 3 LW, and Fraser to No. 4 LW, if you need to.
*I remember, in my first draft, when Sylvio Mantha was my No. 7 d-man. Those were the days. Now he's a No. 2.
*Brad Park can do it all. A true ace No. 1 d-man.
*I think Chara's okay as your No. 4. Here's the problem: he hasn't been overly impressive in the playoffs. I know he was hurt in this year's playoffs, but his performances in Ottawa weren't up to his potential, either. One perk about Chara - he can play the front of the net on the PP, with Park and Stuart working the points.
*Burrows is the type of defenceman who makes his goalies happy. In your case, he'll make Ken Dryden very happy.
*Not a big Keenan fan. He's a good coach, but against a team like Lada, he can be outcoached. And that could be the difference.

Ok, here are your 2008 Springfield Isotopes.

The Springfield Isotopes
Home Ice: Duff Stadium
Coach: Mike Keenan
Captain: Sylvio Mantha
Assistant Captains: Bill Barber, Walt Tkaczuk

#77 Bill Barber (a) - #7 Norm Ullman - #9 Andy Bathgate
#3 Baldy Northcott - #81 Bobby Smith - #8 Teemu Selanne
#4 Hec Kilrea - #18 Walt Tkaczuk (a) - #15 John MacLean
#88 Curt Fraser - #71 Pit Martin - #88 Jim Pappin
#21 Camille Henry - #25 John Ogrodnick

#22 Brad Park - #2 Sylvio Mantha (c)
#33 Zdeno Chara - #1 Hod Stuart
#26 Dave Burrows - #10 Gilles Marotte
#44 Fredrik Olausson

#29 Ken Dryden
#41 Sean Burke

Notes:

- The team will play a left wing lock.

- During the regular season, Chara and Burrows will switch between the 2nd and 3rd pairings based on matchups, a scenario that will probably carry over into the playoffs. Burrows will get more minutes against fast teams while Chara will get more against big teams. Against big, fast teams, we will just have to play with 6 men on the ice.

- Sean Burke will dress in the playoffs only as insurance against flooding, tornadoes, plagues of locusts and other acts of nature. As he did in Montreal, Ken Dryden will start every playoff game.

God Bless Canada
05-10-2008, 07:09 PM
Might be the last of the day...

*Major props on reuniting the great Soviet 5. I think the edge that established chemistry brings gets reduced as the season rolls along, and teammates get used to each other. But it gives you a head start, and you should be able to get a very good seed in your division.
*I think Dillon should be on the second line. He finished in the top 10 in goals six times, and top five in points twice. He's a very, very underrated offensive producer. On the other hand, Stanley gives you a little more sandpaper, and you need that for a line with Weiland and Hull.
*Regardless of who plays RW on the third line, Lambert-Luce will be very effective linemates.
*I think Ricci's better as an MLD player. Too many good defensive centres out there for him to be selected; witness Art Chapman.
*When I look at your spare forwards, the word redundant comes to mind. Rogers and Pederson are good enough to be spare offensive forwards in a 32-team draft. But I wouldn't want both on my team.
*If the rock-solid Fern Flaman thought it was great to play with Doug Mohns, wait till he plays with Ray Bourque. One of the best tandems in the draft. Flaman's toughness and defensive presence will be great with Bourque's two-way stardom.
*Ron Greschner should feel more comfortable to take chances with Terry Harper covering for him.
*You went with a brick wall approach, and you'll need it with your goaltender. Richter is unequivocally the worst No. 1 goalie in this draft. There are probably eight to 10 back-ups who are better goalies than Richter. Richter's a good back-up in this draft. In fact, I think Al Rollins is your real No. 1 goalie.
*Tarasov's a great coach, but we'll see with how he handles the players. We're talking about the guy who said he would never want Carl Brewer on his team because Brewer was "too individual." There aren't a lot of free spirits on this team, but Tarasov can be even more difficult to play for than Punch Imlach.

Have at it boys. Feel like I built a really well balanced team that'll be hard to score on, re-united a 5 man group (hard to do), have grit coming out my ears, ace 1st and 3rd lines, and a damn good defense, especially that "2nd pairing". Love to hear a good deconstruction and breakdown.

Kootenay Ice

Coach: Anatoli Tarasov

Valeri Kharlamov - Vladimir Petrov - Boris Mikhailov
Dennis Hull - Cooney Weiland - Barney Stanley
Yvon Lambert - Don Luce - Cecil Dillon
Steve Vickers - Mike Ricci - Kevin Dineen
ex. Mike Rogers, Barry Pederson

Valeri Vasiliev - Vladimir Lutchenko
Raymond Bourque - Fern Flaman
Terry Harper - Ron Greschner
ex. Steve Chiasson

Mike Richter
Al Rollins

Sturminator
05-11-2008, 07:06 AM
*You have a strong No. 1 defenceman in Cleghorn, and another defenceman (Howe) who is good enough to be a bottom-end No. 1. That's a really nice luxury to have. You can count on for Cleghorn to munch up 25-30 minutes a game, and Howe to give you around 25.

I don't see how your estimation of TOI works with Howe and Cleghorn on seperate pairings, GBC, unless he's also giving Schoenfeld and Patrick close to the same minutes (minus a few for differences in special teams time) and just hardly icing his third pairing.

*The nice thing about Cleghorn is his defensive game and toughness. You don't need a defensive presence for him.

This is an argument I've never understood. Even the best defensive defenseman in the world can only cover half the ice. You don't need two puck movers on a tandem, but the ability of one player to cover for the other defensively seems to be vastly overrated around here. You put Doug Harvey out there with Hal Gill and they're going to get lit up by ATD players because Harvey can only do his job in the defensive zone. I've never been a proponent of completing a defensive pairing on the cheap.

I'd consider putting Patrick with him, and Schoenfeld to play with Howe to give that tandem a little more toughness.

James Patrick on a first pairing?! This is a guy who peaked at 9th in all-star voting for defensemen (91-92) and received zero votes for most of his career. Patrick never so much as played in an all-star game. On a first pairing, James Patrick would get destroyed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, enough of that. I'll do a more-or-less full review of Lada because it's one of my favorite teams in the draft, and not so "dark" a horse as GBC suggests, I think. This is nik's second entry, and I've liked them both quite a lot. We seem to have switched a few players from ATD#8 to this draft - I've got Ullman, Northcott, Stuart and Dryden from the old Seattle team and nik's got Gretzky and...Federko. Yeah, ok, maybe I'm more a fan of his teams than he is of mine. Ah well.

Lada is a very strong entry. Gretzky - Cook is a tremendous spearhead for the attack and is probably better than Gretzky - Bathgate not because of a real difference in talent between the RWs, but because Cook's style complements Gretz's better. Who to place in the left wing is an interesting question. There is a certain lack of toughness in the top 6 with really only Cook and Tonelli playing a power game, so it is probably best to use Bobrov on the top line and slot Tonelli in next to Federko and Middleton. Bobrov - Gretzky - Cook will not play much defense, but they sure will score.

I think Tonelli - Federko - Middleton is a good second line and Federko's record as a playoff scorer is underrated. The wings are both strong defensively and Tonelli brings toughness and the ability to win the puck. Overall, Lada's scoringlines are among the best in the draft.

Cleghorn - Howe is an excellent 1-2 punch on defense, but I don't see how both players will get the icetime they deserve if they're on seperate pairings. The difference between Cleghorn/Howe and Schoenfeld/Patrick is rather extreme. I think you're better off icing a terrific Cleghorn - Howe 1st pairing and just leaning on them for as many minutes as they can play. Schoenfeld - Patrick is a weak second pairing, but I still think this is your best bet. Schoenfeld is fine as a second pairing defenseman; he's not high-end, but he's very solid in his own zone, he's physical and his skating is adequate.

James Patrick should not be on a second pairing, though, nevermind a first. He was simply never that great a player. He played for a long time, but was considered a top-10 defenseman exactly once in his career. His credentials are those of a marginal 3rd pairing or 7th defenseman - they are remarkably similar to Fredrik Olausson's, just as a point of reference. I can't really suggest a good solution to the problem of your second pairing. Marois is no improvement and Schoenfeld - Hajt, while better defensively, would not move the puck, at all. It is a weakness I think you'll just have to live with.

Fortunately, it is Lada's only weakness that is really worth discussing. Lumley is on the lower end of goalies, but that is a given and doesn't need to be beaten around too much.

Sturminator
05-11-2008, 07:58 AM
*I like the first line. It's always good to see respect for the solid, smart, two-way play of Normie Ullman. Barber and especially Bathgate are excellent finishers for Ullman's playmaking ability. Watch out for Barber's dives. Sometimes he'll get called for it. Other times referees won't call plays on him.

Ullman was actually more goal-scorer than playmaker, though he was a fairly versatile player, at any rate. Bathgate is the primary puck-carrier and playmaker on the line, though he was also a strong finisher.

I think MacLean is better suited to fourth line duty, but he's tough and reliable defensively, and he was a consistent 40-goal threat before his knee injury.

I haven't posted it before, but here are the highlites of John MacLean's postseason scoring record:

35-48-83 in 104 games. Two of the years (92-93 and 00-01) can be thrown out: 92-93 was the season that MacLean injured his knee and he was well over the hill in 00-01. Subtract the lines for those seasons and you end up with 33-46-79 in 89 games. During his prime years, MacLean's playoff PPG was .89 and his GPG was .37 on some offensively mediocre (at best) Devils teams - and this over a fairly large sample size of games. Those are excellent scoring rates for a third liner with MacLean's all-around game. Except for the two throwout seasons, MacLean was never worse than 3rd in team scoring in the playoffs, and he was a vital piece of the Devils' first Cup run.

*I think Chara's okay as your No. 4. Here's the problem: he hasn't been overly impressive in the playoffs. I know he was hurt in this year's playoffs, but his performances in Ottawa weren't up to his potential, either.

He was hurt (broken bone in his hand/wrist) during his only sub-par performance in Ottawa, as well. Considering just how far Chara's skills/credentials are above the median for a #4 defenseman (take a look around the league), the fact that he's had hard luck with injuries in the playoffs doesn't really concern me. Seriously - the "other" good season of Chara's that nobody even talks about (his first year in Ottawa), he was considered better (7th in voting) than James Patrick ever was. Chara's "horrible" first year in Boston was better than a normal season for James Patrick; Chara actually got a few all-star votes. Is there another #4 defenseman in the league with three top-5 Norris finishes or equivalent credentials? Don't say Fern Flaman because Lutchenko is clearly Kootenay's true #4. It's amazing to me how many nits get picked on this player while the fact that he's, you know, better than his peers at the same roster slot seems to be completely ignored.

*Not a big Keenan fan. He's a good coach, but against a team like Lada, he can be outcoached. And that could be the difference.

I'm not a Mike Keenan fan, either, and I don't consider him a strong X-and-O coach. Springfield is not an X-and-O team, though. The Isotopes play a cohesive, straightforward system and don't match lines. All Keenan needs to do is what he actually is good at: motivate a bunch of tough players to leave everything they've got on the ice.

chaosrevolver
05-11-2008, 11:41 AM
Montreal Sarasaurusrex
Coach: Lester Patrick
Captain: Jack Stewart
Assistant Captain: Bobby Hull
Assistant Captain: Craig MacTavish

#9 Bobby Hull - #13 Mickey MacKay - #17 Jari Kurri
#91 Paul Kariya - #19 Butch Goring - #8 Cecil "Babe" Dye
#27 Harry Watson - #14 Craig MacTavish - #20 Cliff Koroll
#12 Stan Jonathan - #26 Mel Bridgman - #11 Duane Sutter
#18 Dave "The Hammer" Schultz - #24 Erich Kühnhackl

#5 Jack "Blackjack" Stewart - #7 Alexei Kasatonov
#3 Ching Johnson - #6 Stefan Persson
#25 Petr Svoboda - #4 Kevin Hatcher
#44 Mike Milbury

#35 Tony Esposito
#1 Chico Resch

Power Play #1:
Bobby Hull- Mickey MacKay - Jari Kurri
Jack Stewart - Stefan Persson

Power Play #2:
Paul Kariya - Butch Goring - Cecil Dye
Alexei Kasatonov- Kevin Hatcher

Penalty Kill #1:
Butch Goring - Cliff Koroll
Jack Stewart - Alexei Kasatonov

Penalty Kill #2:
Craig MacTavish - Duane Sutter
Ching Johnson - Petr Svoboda

God Bless Canada
05-11-2008, 02:29 PM
I don't see how your estimation of TOI works with Howe and Cleghorn on seperate pairings, GBC, unless he's also giving Schoenfeld and Patrick close to the same minutes (minus a few for differences in special teams time) and just hardly icing his third pairing.



This is an argument I've never understood. Even the best defensive defenseman in the world can only cover half the ice. You don't need two puck movers on a tandem, but the ability of one player to cover for the other defensively seems to be vastly overrated around here. You put Doug Harvey out there with Hal Gill and they're going to get lit up by ATD players because Harvey can only do his job in the defensive zone. I've never been a proponent of completing a defensive pairing on the cheap.



James Patrick on a first pairing?! This is a guy who peaked at 9th in all-star voting for defensemen (91-92) and received zero votes for most of his career. Patrick never so much as played in an all-star game. On a first pairing, James Patrick would get destroyed.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, enough of that. I'll do a more-or-less full review of Lada because it's one of my favorite teams in the draft, and not so "dark" a horse as GBC suggests, I think. This is nik's second entry, and I've liked them both quite a lot. We seem to have switched a few players from ATD#8 to this draft - I've got Ullman, Northcott, Stuart and Dryden from the old Seattle team and nik's got Gretzky and...Federko. Yeah, ok, maybe I'm more a fan of his teams than he is of mine. Ah well.

Lada is a very strong entry. Gretzky - Cook is a tremendous spearhead for the attack and is probably better than Gretzky - Bathgate not because of a real difference in talent between the RWs, but because Cook's style complements Gretz's better. Who to place in the left wing is an interesting question. There is a certain lack of toughness in the top 6 with really only Cook and Tonelli playing a power game, so it is probably best to use Bobrov on the top line and slot Tonelli in next to Federko and Middleton. Bobrov - Gretzky - Cook will not play much defense, but they sure will score.

I think Tonelli - Federko - Middleton is a good second line and Federko's record as a playoff scorer is underrated. The wings are both strong defensively and Tonelli brings toughness and the ability to win the puck. Overall, Lada's scoringlines are among the best in the draft.

Cleghorn - Howe is an excellent 1-2 punch on defense, but I don't see how both players will get the icetime they deserve if they're on seperate pairings. The difference between Cleghorn/Howe and Schoenfeld/Patrick is rather extreme. I think you're better off icing a terrific Cleghorn - Howe 1st pairing and just leaning on them for as many minutes as they can play. Schoenfeld - Patrick is a weak second pairing, but I still think this is your best bet. Schoenfeld is fine as a second pairing defenseman; he's not high-end, but he's very solid in his own zone, he's physical and his skating is adequate.

James Patrick should not be on a second pairing, though, nevermind a first. He was simply never that great a player. He played for a long time, but was considered a top-10 defenseman exactly once in his career. His credentials are those of a marginal 3rd pairing or 7th defenseman - they are remarkably similar to Fredrik Olausson's, just as a point of reference. I can't really suggest a good solution to the problem of your second pairing. Marois is no improvement and Schoenfeld - Hajt, while better defensively, would not move the puck, at all. It is a weakness I think you'll just have to live with.

Fortunately, it is Lada's only weakness that is really worth discussing. Lumley is on the lower end of goalies, but that is a given and doesn't need to be beaten around too much.

I watched James Patrick play, and I watched Freddy Olausson play, and I can tell you Patrick was a better player. Maybe not more talented - Olausson had great ability highlighted by a world-class shot. But Patrick had the consistency that Olausson often lacked.

I always viewed Patrick as underrated. (Strange to say that about a guy who played his best days with the Rangers, but the Rangers often got overlooked in the 80s). He was an outstanding skater with good size, strong creativity and a two-way presence. He was very effective in his own zone. And he was good enough to play for Canada at the 87 Canada Cup, at a time when Canada had a lot of outstanding defencemen to choose from. (Which I consider a hell of a lot more impressive than the all-star sham...er...game).

I would probably go with the Cleghorn-Howe tandem, too, but a lot of guys in this draft prefer to spread their top two defencemen out, rather than have them on separate pairings.

Evil Sather
05-11-2008, 03:02 PM
*I think Dillon should be on the second line. He finished in the top 10 in goals six times, and top five in points twice. He's a very, very underrated offensive producer. On the other hand, Stanley gives you a little more sandpaper, and you need that for a line with Weiland and Hull.
*I think Ricci's better as an MLD player. Too many good defensive centres out there for him to be selected; witness Art Chapman.
*When I look at your spare forwards, the word redundant comes to mind. Rogers and Pederson are good enough to be spare offensive forwards in a 32-team draft. But I wouldn't want both on my team.
*You went with a brick wall approach, and you'll need it with your goaltender. Richter is unequivocally the worst No. 1 goalie in this draft. There are probably eight to 10 back-ups who are better goalies than Richter. Richter's a good back-up in this draft. In fact, I think Al Rollins is your real No. 1 goalie.
*Tarasov's a great coach, but we'll see with how he handles the players. We're talking about the guy who said he would never want Carl Brewer on his team because Brewer was "too individual." There aren't a lot of free spirits on this team, but Tarasov can be even more difficult to play for than Punch Imlach.

* Do I want 'good' 2nd and 3rd lines, or an ace 3rd line who can check, defend, skate, and score a lot better than most 3rd lines? Seems like an easy choice.

* Ricci is exactly what you want out of a 4th line center, grit out of his ears, solid skating, and a good defensive/PK presence to go with experience. Personal preference past like pick 400, right?

* My team has a lot of defensive talent/hard workers up front, and lacks superskilled puck handlers past the 1st line. I think having 2 offensive first slick guys gives me a lot of options for an injury on the top line/matchup decisions that the rest of my roster couldn't fill in.

* Post expansion coaches get the shaft here because we know their faults; even the drafts consensus best coach, Scotty Bowman, can be pointed to in Buffalo for screwing up. Lester Patrick, Tommy Gorman, Tommy Ivan, we see "classy, innovative, brilliant, etc." and have to take it at face value, but never any faults of theirs the way a Tarasov or an Imlach gets later, though Tarasov was a commie jerk and Imlach was such a ******* and maybe that's why their notoriety followed them. It's slippery.

* Finally, leaving my last point for the target of scorn, Mike Richter. I can't believe you can say Richter is an average backup (thats what 8-10 backups being better than him make him in a 32 team draft). A lot of guys people never saw, so they have to point to stats. Richter's stats aren't jaw dropping. I know the arguments statheads give. 1 40 win season, only 24 SO in his career, failed to bring the Rangers to the playoffs his last 5 years. No Vezina.

We all know he has the Cup. Solid international experience, too. Silver in the 2002 games at the end of the line. But he has something precious few goaltenders in this draft have, and that's experience beating and the capability to dominate super-teams like he did in the 1996 World Cup. By many accounts he single-handedly won the United States that Championship. He was awarded the MVP in what was one of the finest performances by a goalie ever.

Team USA didn't beat Canada in 1996. Mike Richter did...

The man with the Lady Liberty goalie mask possessed rapier-like reflexes that brought the crowd to its feet. His concentration was second to none, and his one on one ability, especially on clear cut breakaways, were otherworldly. There may have been no goalie in history who was better on breakaways...

The Americans put the responsibility of achieving their destiny in the glove hand of Mike Richter. Richter was in mid season form during the entire tournament, but only got stronger as the games became more meaningful. By the time the best of 3 finals came along, Richter was simply in a zone few goalies could reach. Especially in that deciding game, where he very well might have stolen the World Cup away from the first nation of hockey single-handedly.

Yet Richter frustrated not only the 20 Canadians on the ice, but the 30 million at home as well. He spectacularly devoured anything that came his way. It was a classic performance in as big a game as there is in hockey. You will never see a better performance in a game of such consequence.

He was that damn good.

On good teams, Richter was good. He failed at times (center ice whiff vs. the Penguins in 1992 comes to mind) but he also came up huge, "the save" on Bure in Game 3 of the Cup Finals, the World Cup. But he gets a bad rap for when the Rangers were bad. I know the post is long, but I'm going to go off a little here.

You don't know Richter. You don't. The same way I don't know Kirk McLean or Mattias Ohlund or Trevor Linden. I know of them, I've seen them play, but not day-in and day-out. This draft is such we often have to rely on stats because there isn't other evidence, like detailed first hand accounts. And let me tell you something about Mike Richter and those Rangers teams after Colin Campbell was let go (1997-98 was a team bereft of talent or energy. Look at the hockeydb roster, I'd be happy to go over it with you).

For four solid years, from John Muckler, to Ron Low, to Bryan Trottier, the Rangers had no system. None. Trust me. As in they tried to play 1980s Oilers hockey with 1/10th the talent and 1/10th the speed. There was no such thing as defensive zone coverage. Organized breakouts were rare. Defensive forwards and checkers were non existant after the Keane and Skrudland debacle. Short of a Todd Harvey or a really pissed Alex Kovalev, no one hit anyone, ever. Three forwards would routinely go behind the goal line, get trapped, and see 3 on 2s, 3 on 1s, and 2 on 1s go the other way.

You might think I'm exaggerating. I'm not. If pnep or someone has a stat on odd-man rushes per game, it's going to be a staggering amount. Ten a game would not surprise me. And only because his reflexes and lateral movement was ungodly did the Rangers do as well as they did game after game. For four years.

When Bryan Trottier got here, he spent his entire time instituting "3rd man high". The team couldn't or wouldn't get it until December. "Look, Sam" JD would crow, "the center is playing back! That's for defensive purposes! They'e been working on this since August!" Yes, something 12 year olds do normally was actually trumpeted as a major achievement. You can't imagine the disorganization. That they were in as many games as they were is almost entirely because of Mike Richter.

So when people get on Richter for those last 5 years, they don't know. They just don't. Dominik Hasek is other wordly, a top-3 goaltender in my eyes. But he was sure helped. Those Sabres played a hard core trap behind him, collapsed well behind him, cleared the net for him. Richter never was Hasek, but he got ZERO help. That Chuck Rayner and Al Rollins (my acutal #1?!?!) are given passes for awful records because their teams were bad but Richter gets slagged in just wrong.

A list of the defensemen Richter was forced to play behind after 1997: a DONE Bruce Driver, Alexander Karpotsev, Jeff Finley, a DONE Doug Lidster, Eric Cairns, Chris Tamer, Peter Popovic, Rumun Ndur, Stan Neckar, a DONE Kevin Hatcher, Stephane Quintal, a DONE Sylvain Lefebvre, Rich Pilon, Dale Purinton, a DONE Alexei Gusarov, Brad Brown, an apathetic Vladimir Malakhov, a still recovering Bryan Berard, Dave Karpa, Igor Ulanov, Tom "Porta" Poti, Darren Van Impe, and Cory Cross. That's 23 horrendous, awful players in front of you. Exactly how was anyone supposed to overcome that?

Sturminator
05-11-2008, 04:16 PM
I watched James Patrick play, and I watched Freddy Olausson play, and I can tell you Patrick was a better player. Maybe not more talented - Olausson had great ability highlighted by a world-class shot. But Patrick had the consistency that Olausson often lacked.

I've seen them play, as well. Was Patrick better than Olausson - yeah, defensively, at least. But that's not the point. You actually make the point quite well: James Patrick had a lot of consistency. He was consistently a very good defenseman. The problem is that he was never great, even at his best, and this is a draft of greats. In an ATD context, even second pairing defensemen should have been dominant players, at least at their peaks. James Patrick never was.

I am deeply confused by your lukewarm take on Chara as a #4 defenseman and simultaneous advice to move Patrick to the first pairing (although you now seem to agree with me that Cleghorn - Howe is probably a better idea). Chara is vastly more dominant than Patrick ever was. I don't see how you can deny that. What gives?

nik jr
05-11-2008, 06:53 PM
Last review of the day...

*This is one of my favourite teams of the draft. If you had to ask me for a darkhorse, this would be it. They're in a tough division, but this is a very, very well-rounded team.

Ok, enough of that. I'll do a more-or-less full review of Lada because it's one of my favorite teams in the draft, and not so "dark" a horse as GBC suggests, I think.

thank you, GBC and sturm.

i thought about howe and cleghorn together, but i decided to keep them separate b/c i want one on the ice to coordinate the offense and move the puck.

patrick is not ideal for the 2nd pairing, but i think he's OK, b/c he's steady. he's not there for offense, but just smart, simple play. i think he's perfectly fine as a 3rd pairing D.

cleghorn and howe will get more TOI than their partners, b/c of special teams and b/c they take longer shifts. sometimes they'll be on the ice together, end of the games, shift changes, but not often.

i agree that physicality is a weakness.


imo:

strengths:
puck movement and transition
offense
PP
1st line
smart players

weaknesses:
physicality
some one dimensional forwards
goaltending
average D

vancityluongo
05-11-2008, 07:22 PM
Very good character spread all-around. Sakic and Potvin are both excellent captains at any level.
Conacher-Ovechkin may be the best LW punch in the draft. Ovie is just a kid, but he will probably be named to 3 consecutive 1rst all-star teams at the end of this year, as well as winning a Rocket Richard and Art Ross trophies.
I do not see Doug Weight as a 4th line center. He would be better as a 13th forward.
Moog is a good backup.
The defense is good, but I have heard that Flash Hollett was somewhat of a liability defensively.

Thanks for the review. Agreed on all points, other then I think Doug Weight is a more then legitimate 4th line C, possibly even a lower end 3rd scoring line guy. I especially like him alongside Henderson and Randall, who both have a scoring touch and IMO, will fit well with Weight and his playmaking skills.

I'd say Weight and Lysiak are pretty much equal actually, and I'd still give an advantage to Weight. Weight's defensive game is underrated, and both were heavily geared toward playmaking. Only I think Weight has to be considered better than Lysiak in this aspect. Actually, Henderson - Weight - Randall could score their share of goals all the while being pretty decent defensively. Both Weight and Lysiak could be tougher players, but guys with their skills and more toughness more go like 400th than 700th.

I like Weight more then Lysiak, but I'm more then comfortable putting either of them on the 4th line. I'm also really comfortable with Willi Plett on the 3rd line, and Randall at defense. So yeah, I think I can mix and match with my forwards a bit if needed.

Random Thoughts on Teams:

The Winnipeg Jets:
-You've got the best active Captain as a sometimes alternate? Alternate captaincy between Potvin and Sakic sure, but if Sakic wears the "A", he should wear it every game.
-I don't dislike the players, but, I'm not sold on your 2nd or 3rd pairings as shutdown pairings. Seems a waste to use Pronovost/Potvin in that role.
-Best 3rd line in the draft.
-Never hear me say anything bad about Holecek, top 10 IMO. Moog should be a great back-up for him.
-Solid 1st line, but overall, your wings may lack playmaking ability.
-Your best team yet. I'm curious to see this roster in some head to head match-ups.

For serial? Is too much leadership a bad thing now? :)

I only did that because I thought the "captaincy" was more of a formal kind of thing that we only do in the ATD to make it realistic, but if we're actually supposed to consider who team captains are as a factor of voting, then I'll change that.

Also, for the 2nd and 3rd pairings, I didn't want to have a "true shutdown" pairing. Last time, my team got a ton of crap because i had guys like Terry Harper and Ken Daneyko on my second pairing, and apparently I'd have no offense from the defense. So I tried to balance things out this time with nice two way guys like Johansson and to some extent Abel, while I have a defensive specialist in Macoun, and a offensive PP QB type guy in Hollett.

I know most of you think that Macoun is going to be overworked with Hollett, but I'm thinking of possibly switching up that pairing. Potvin-Pronovost is going to stay together; I think they'd be less effective playing with one of my other four guys. I'd love some suggestions of how I could change things up, because I'm seeing a lot of comments about my pairings, but no one seems to think that I chose the wrong personnal.

Thanks for the review though Nalyd.

Diving Pokecheck*
05-11-2008, 08:11 PM
Clark Gillies - Cyclone Taylor - Yvan Cournoyer
Herbie Lewis - Marty Barry - Jarome Iginla
Craig Simpson - Phil Watson - Tommy Phillips
Gilles Tremblay - Vladimir Shadrin - Eric Nesterenko

Scott Niedermayer - Moose Vasko
Gus Mortson - Wally Stanowski
Gary Bergman - George Owen

Dominik Hasek
Dave Kerr
A solid all-around lineup with no glaring strengths or weaknesses. The only problem I can foresee is the questions marks around Cyclone's era and level of competition, but besides for that you have a very balanced team.

Pwnasaurus
05-11-2008, 08:13 PM
A solid all-around lineup with no glaring strengths or weaknesses.

I think goal is a strength. This current postseason not withstanding.

God Bless Canada
05-11-2008, 09:14 PM
*A feast or famine club. Their goal-scoring and goaltending is among the best in the draft. And they have a coach who's perfect for this team. (Although I think Quinn does need an assistant to help with strategies and tactics). But their defence and team defence is among the draft's worst. Overall team defence is likely the worst.
*The top three lines should have no problem scoring. The Forsberg-Hull tandem is one of the most potent in the draft. I believe Kamensky has experience playing with Forsberg. At his best, Kamensky was one of the top two or three LWs in the world, and he gives Forsberg another scoring option.
*It's not that Mahovlich is out of place as a No. 2 LW; it's just there were better options out there. Bert Olmstead would have been an awesome bookend for this line. But Mahovlich gives you excellent size and speed to play with the fleet-footed Richard and Mullen. Again, scoring won't be a problem for this line, and Mahovlich and Richard can play against the opponent's top line.
*Kovalev's out-of-position, but the third line should be able to score. For a third scoring line, Kovalev and Larouche are not out of place. Smyl opens up room.
*The fourth line gives you toughness, but I'm not sure if Nemchinov can be counted on for a shut-down role in an ATD context, and Williams definitely wasn't a big factor defensively.
*Ramsey and Morrow are rocks. You might want to look at having them on the same pairing for a strong shut-down pairing, because it would give you something you could have out there against the opponent's top line.
*Carlyle might be the worst No. 1 defenceman in the draft, outside of Eric DesJardins. I like Carlyle a lot, but he should be a No. 2. A nice two-way defenceman, but you can't rely on him too much.
*I still think Gonchar is better served as a third-pairing offensive specialist.
*I really like Samuelsson as a towering No. 7. He was nearly impossible to get around, thanks to his size and reach.
*It's a good thing you have Patrick Roy, because he's going to face a lot of rubber playing behind your team, and with Quinn as the coach. I have Roy as my No. 2 goalie ever (behind Jacques Plante), but he'll need to play the best hockey of his life. He could be facing 40 shots a night, fired at him by teams loaded with future HHOFers.

Vancouver Millionares

Coach: Pat Quinn
Captain: Randy Carlyle
Assistant captain: Peter Forsberg
Assistant captain: Brett Hull
Assistant captain: Mike Ramsey

Valeri Kamensky-Peter Forsberg-Brett Hull
Pete Mahovlich-Henri Richard-Joe Mullen
Alexei Kovalev-Pierre Larouche-Stan Smyl
Kirk Maltby-Sergei Nemchinov-Tiger Williams

spares: Datsyuk, Ferraro

Randy Carlyle-Ken Morrow
Sergei Gonchar-Mike Ramsey
Dave Babytch-Robert Svehla

spare: Kjell Samuelsson

Patrick Roy
Jean Sebastien Giguere

God Bless Canada
05-11-2008, 10:05 PM
*I like the talent on the top line. Not sure if they're going to be able to handle some of the teams in the division with speed and team toughness. I don't know if Pronovost is good enough to be the guy that Robitaille and Dionne need. They need someone to open up room for them, which Pronovost should be able to do, but they also need someone who can convert their chances. I'd like Pronovost for that role on the second line. Not for the first.
*Someone must really like Dick Duff's big-game ability and defensive presence, because I don't think any of us thought he'd ever be a second line winger in the ATD.
*Thornton and Loob should be a sensational offensive tandem. At least in the regular season.
*Was John Ferguson really good enough defensively to play on what should be a very capable shut-down line? Against some of the top offensive RWs in this division, he could be a liability.
*Brad Richards will really come in handy once the playoffs start. One of the best clutch players in the league.
*Defence is a much-improved effort from the last draft. In the last draft, your best defensive defenceman was Larry Robinson. You'll have one of the best shut-down pairings, and one of the best overall pairings, in this draft, with Harvey-Boivin. And the Johnson-Huddy tandem will also be very, very good.
*Daneyko-McSorley will be tough, but I think they should be used sparingly. I don't think McSorley is good enough to take a regular shift; I think he's better as a No. 7 who can be plugged into the line-up if the series gets ugly.
*Broda's probably the best goalie in our division.
*I like Lemaire. I think he's good enough to be an ATD coach. But I think you took him too soon. Lemaire should not be selected ahead of guys like Ivan, Day or Irvin, all of whom were excellent defensive coaches.

Coach: Jacques Lemaire

Luc Robitaille // Marcel Dionne // Jean Pronovost
Dick Duff // Joe Thornton // Hakan Loob
John Ferguson // Neal Broten // Jere Lehtinen
Red Berenson // Brian Skrudland // Brad Richards
Slava Kozlov // Milan Hejduk

Doug Harvey // Leo Boivin
Tom Johnson // Charlie Huddy
Marty McSorley // Ken Daneyko
Larry Hillman

Turk Broda // Bill Ranford

chaosrevolver
05-11-2008, 10:59 PM
Anyone wanna do a review of mine? Its been posted twice. I can guess what you will say..but the hell with it. Fire Away. Check the last page and first page.

Spitfire11
05-11-2008, 11:46 PM
Montreal Sarasaurusrex
Coach: Lester Patrick
Captain: Jack Stewart
Assistant Captain: Bobby Hull
Assistant Captain: Craig MacTavish

#9 Bobby Hull - #13 Mickey MacKay - #17 Jari Kurri
#91 Paul Kariya - #19 Butch Goring - #8 Cecil "Babe" Dye
#27 Harry Watson - #14 Craig MacTavish - #20 Cliff Koroll
#12 Stan Jonathan - #26 Mel Bridgman - #11 Duane Sutter
#18 Dave "The Hammer" Schultz - #24 Erich Kühnhackl

#5 Jack "Blackjack" Stewart - #7 Alexei Kasatonov
#3 Ching Johnson - #6 Stefan Persson
#25 Petr Svoboda - #4 Kevin Hatcher
#44 Mike Milbury

#35 Tony Esposito
#1 Chico Resch

Power Play #1:
Bobby Hull- Mickey MacKay - Jari Kurri
Jack Stewart - Stefan Persson

Power Play #2:
Paul Kariya - Butch Goring - Cecil Dye
Alexei Kasatonov- Kevin Hatcher

Penalty Kill #1:
Butch Goring - Cliff Koroll
Jack Stewart - Alexei Kasatonov

Penalty Kill #2:
Craig MacTavish - Duane Sutter
Ching Johnson - Petr Svoboda


- Well the obvious is the lack of a true 1st line centre, but still a very good top line.
- Very tough team, one of the toughest in the draft, no one will be taking liberties with the likes of Stewart, Watson, Hull amongst many others.
- I might be one of the few, but I like Jack Stewart over Gadsby
- I think you might have gone a little overboard trying to add grit and have quite a few high PIM guys, and a bottom 6 that won't produce much scoring, probably the biggest weakness on the team.
- The defense isn't outstanding, but very good. A Stewart-Johnson pairing would be badass and a great option if opposing teams have a big top line.
- I don't have a problem with Tony, and Resch is one of my favourite backups

ck26
05-12-2008, 04:51 AM
I don't know if Pronovost is good enough to be the guy that Robitaille and Dionne need. They need someone to open up room for them, which Pronovost should be able to do, but they also need someone who can convert their chances. I'd like Pronovost for that role on the second line. Not for the first.
*Someone must really like Dick Duff's big-game ability and defensive presence.
*Was John Ferguson really good enough defensively to play on what should be a very capable shut-down line?

Coach: Jacques Lemaire

Luc Robitaille // Marcel Dionne // Jean Pronovost
Dick Duff // Joe Thornton // Hakan Loob
John Ferguson // Neal Broten // Jere Lehtinen
Red Berenson // Brian Skrudland // Brad Richards
Slava Kozlov // Milan Hejduk

Doug Harvey // Leo Boivin
Tom Johnson // Charlie Huddy
Marty McSorley // Ken Daneyko
Larry Hillman

Turk Broda // Bill RanfordA couple responses and a critique of my own.
Pronovost not good enough to convert their chances? He who scored 40 four times and 50 once?

The roles balance out. That's going to be a theme. Pronovost is under-skilled (for normal 1st line status), but Dionne / Robitaille are over-skilled, and (IMO) Pronovost provides everything they lack. Trois Quebecois is kinda cool as well. Same with the 2nd line (Duff weak but Thornton/Loob strong, and Duff provides the toughness, hard work and playoff clutch money-ness). The roles balance. Ferguson isn't your standard 3LW, but against Richard / Messier / Neely / etc, I want Ferguson's mean alongside Broten and Lehtinen's total package plus Tom Johnson's slick ... that's a LW / LD pairing with all you need. Ferguson was skilled enough to skate with Beliveau, he's good enough to be the grit forward on a two-way defensive line. (Provided he can catch them) Ferguson can't wait to abuse the little Bentleys.

#9 Johnny Bucyk-#15 Milt Schmidt-#8 Cam Neely
#27 Shayne Corson-#25 Jacques Lemaire-#18 Steve Larmer
#35 Mike McPhee-#11 Wayne Merrick-#20 Bobby Rousseau
#12 Brenden Morrow-#14 Glen Skov-#13 Blair Russell

DEFENCEMEN
#19 Larry Robinson-#3 Clarence "Hap" Day
#6 Doug "Diesel" Mohns-#5 Bill Barilko
#10 Ted Harris-#7 Brad Maxwell

GOALTENDERS
#30 Gerry "Cheesy" Cheevers
#31 Hugh "Old Eagle Eyes" LehmanReally tough, stay-at-home defense, but I don't like half-forward / half-defensemen (Mohns) to be in the lineup as defensemen. Even next to Barilko, having a guy who played half his career at forward as a 3/4 raises eyebrows. His best hockey was as Stan Mikita's left winger ... and he's playing defense? Err ...

I rate Cheevers as one of the worst starters, but in my mind that only comes into play against the Haseks and Drydens, not everone. Your defense is solid (except the aformentioned Mohns) and Cheevers isn't going to lose any games on his own.

I think Neely's overrated but your first line is good. Remind me a bit of Philly's Legion of Doom, but better. Mean and balanced ... I can see any of the three scoring goals off both the others. Corson and Larmer are interesting ... Corson's as out of place on a 2nd line as Dick Duff, but in the role of grinder I buy it (as I do with Duff). Don't know if Lemaire and Larmer together are enough to carry a viable scoring 2nd line. Both the guys (Lafleur/Cournoyer and Savard/Roenick) always had huge help in putting up their gaudy numbers, and I don't think Lemaire is as good as Roenick was or Larmer Lafleur ... not as good as what the other is used to playing with, if that makes sense.

Lemaire (obviously), McPhee (obviously) and Morrow (also obviously) are three of my favorite two-way forwards. Blair Russell is a wildcard probably best left for the MLD, but I don't recall ever voting one team ahead of another based on a 4th line winger.

Sturminator
05-12-2008, 06:01 AM
Montreal Sarasaurusrex
Coach: Lester Patrick
Captain: Jack Stewart
Assistant Captain: Bobby Hull
Assistant Captain: Craig MacTavish

#9 Bobby Hull - #13 Mickey MacKay - #17 Jari Kurri
#91 Paul Kariya - #19 Butch Goring - #8 Cecil "Babe" Dye
#27 Harry Watson - #14 Craig MacTavish - #20 Cliff Koroll
#12 Stan Jonathan - #26 Mel Bridgman - #11 Duane Sutter
#18 Dave "The Hammer" Schultz - #24 Erich Kühnhackl

#5 Jack "Blackjack" Stewart - #7 Alexei Kasatonov
#3 Ching Johnson - #6 Stefan Persson
#25 Petr Svoboda - #4 Kevin Hatcher
#44 Mike Milbury

#35 Tony Esposito
#1 Chico Resch

Power Play #1:
Bobby Hull- Mickey MacKay - Jari Kurri
Jack Stewart - Stefan Persson

Power Play #2:
Paul Kariya - Butch Goring - Cecil Dye
Alexei Kasatonov- Kevin Hatcher

Penalty Kill #1:
Butch Goring - Cliff Koroll
Jack Stewart - Alexei Kasatonov

Penalty Kill #2:
Craig MacTavish - Duane Sutter
Ching Johnson - Petr Svoboda


My first impression of the team is that it lacks something in direction. Many GMs like to wait on a center because there are many great ones available relatively late (Rick and I took our #1 center in the 4th, for example), but I think you waited too long. Hull is one of those guys who will perform with the proverbial grandmother and monkey on skates for linemates, so there's really no concern there, but I don't think Kurri is a guy whose offensive potential will fully come out next to an inferior center. Like pappy, I believe that Kurri is pretty consistently overdrafted relative to the other talents at his position: sometimes before Conacher and generally before Bathgate and Cook, both of whom I consider better players, overall. Kurri, I've got in a slightly lower tier at RW with Brett Hull. Not a big deal, but a player for whom a moderate value correction may be in order.

Goring is fine as a second line center, and I generally like the second line. Kariya is a strong playmaker to set up Dye, who I gather was all hands. I would consider placing Dye on the first unit power play over Kurri. The disconnect on the line is that Kariya won't have much help in transition. Persson was a fine puckmover in real life, but for an ATD 2nd pair, he's no better than average. Kariya and Dye are both strong offensive talents for a 2nd line, however, and this will be a unit that can disappear for stretches and then score a stunning goal out of nowhere.

The bottom lines are strong defensively and quite tough (though I am not a Stan Jonathan fan in the ATD main draft), but are very limited offensively. I think Kasatonov is a strong #2 and forms a well-balanced and extremely mobile top-pairing with Stewart. Johnson is an upper-tier number three and matches well with Persson, who is a decent puck-mover on a second pair. Svoboda and Hatcher is another strong pairing relative to their roster spots. There aren't really that many teams with the bottom-6 talent to take advantage of Hatcher's brain farts. A few, but not so many.

In general, the defense is quite good, and I think Tony O's playoff hiccups are overblown. The guy was a very good goalie. Goalies who give up infamous playoff softies seem to be unfairly dissected on this board - this accounts for Esposito and Durnan, especially. Every goalie gives up bad goals occasionally. Some guys get away with it because it happens at the end of a blowout and some seemingly have their whole careers defined by it.

Was Bill Buckner a poor fielder at first base? No, he was actually pretty good, he just picked a lousy time to boot the ball. Durnan and Esposito do, indeed, deserve to get knocked for their gaffes, but I think at least Espo gets knocked a little too hard (Durnan's draft position is still pretty lofty). There seems to be a perception around here that it is impossible to win in the playoffs with Tony Esposito, and I think that's wrong.

God Bless Canada
05-12-2008, 12:05 PM
A couple responses and a critique of my own.
Pronovost not good enough to convert their chances? He who scored 40 four times and 50 once?

The roles balance out. That's going to be a theme. Pronovost is under-skilled (for normal 1st line status), but Dionne / Robitaille are over-skilled, and (IMO) Pronovost provides everything they lack. Trois Quebecois is kinda cool as well. Same with the 2nd line (Duff weak but Thornton/Loob strong, and Duff provides the toughness, hard work and playoff clutch money-ness). The roles balance. Ferguson isn't your standard 3LW, but against Richard / Messier / Neely / etc, I want Ferguson's mean alongside Broten and Lehtinen's total package plus Tom Johnson's slick ... that's a LW / LD pairing with all you need. Ferguson was skilled enough to skate with Beliveau, he's good enough to be the grit forward on a two-way defensive line. (Provided he can catch them) Ferguson can't wait to abuse the little Bentleys.

Really tough, stay-at-home defense, but I don't like half-forward / half-defensemen (Mohns) to be in the lineup as defensemen. Even next to Barilko, having a guy who played half his career at forward as a 3/4 raises eyebrows. His best hockey was as Stan Mikita's left winger ... and he's playing defense? Err ...

I rate Cheevers as one of the worst starters, but in my mind that only comes into play against the Haseks and Drydens, not everone. Your defense is solid (except the aformentioned Mohns) and Cheevers isn't going to lose any games on his own.

I think Neely's overrated but your first line is good. Remind me a bit of Philly's Legion of Doom, but better. Mean and balanced ... I can see any of the three scoring goals off both the others. Corson and Larmer are interesting ... Corson's as out of place on a 2nd line as Dick Duff, but in the role of grinder I buy it (as I do with Duff). Don't know if Lemaire and Larmer together are enough to carry a viable scoring 2nd line. Both the guys (Lafleur/Cournoyer and Savard/Roenick) always had huge help in putting up their gaudy numbers, and I don't think Lemaire is as good as Roenick was or Larmer Lafleur ... not as good as what the other is used to playing with, if that makes sense.

Lemaire (obviously), McPhee (obviously) and Morrow (also obviously) are three of my favorite two-way forwards. Blair Russell is a wildcard probably best left for the MLD, but I don't recall ever voting one team ahead of another based on a 4th line winger.

It's one thing to have Ferguson's "mean" to play against Richard, Neely and Messier. It's another thing to have the smarts and the mobility to keep up with them. He doesn't. I like Ferguson as a fourth line toughie who can get an occasional goal, stick up for his teammates and provide a great influence in the locker room, but that's it. He isn't good enough defensively to play that role.

He won't be able to keep up with the Bentley's. He's not fast enough, or smart enough. The Bentley's would eat John Ferguson alive.

As for Mohns: I'm a big fan of versatility in this thing. That's what makes guys like Mohns, Colville, Clapper and Siebert so valuable: they can get you quality minutes at different positions. We picked Mohns to be a defenceman, and that's where he'll play. He might see some time at LW on the PP and on a last-minute squad, but that's it. He's the type of guy we want out there against the Bentley's, with his skating ability, strength, hockey sense and toughness, but those attributes also will make him ideal in matching up against a guy like Jean Beliveau.

Mohns played a lot of time at defence. I'd say his best years were actually spent at defence. He was the only defenceman to reach 20 goals between the end of the Second World War, and the arrival of Bobby Orr. He was part of a rock-solid tandem with Fern Flaman in Boston in the 50s. He was a defenceman for six of the seven all-star games he was chosen to be part of. (Back when the all-star game actually meant something, before fan balloting and team representation rules spoiled the contest).

He was fine as an LW in Chicago, but most of his NHL career was at defence, and he was pretty damn good at it, too. Good enough to be a No. 2 defenceman in the ATD, and one of the best No. 3 defencemen in the draft.

As for Cheevers, the guy was terrific when it mattered most. It didn't matter if it was a 2-1 game, or a 6-5 game, when you needed that big save, he was there. He was terrific in the playoffs. That's why we picked him. If he as good as Turk Broda? No. Will he cost us a series? No. Can he steal us a game in a series? Yes. Will he make the big saves when it counts? Absolutely.

monster_bertuzzi
05-12-2008, 04:56 PM
GBC, I love your reviews and your insight...we all appreciate it man. Ill pick a bone about my team defence though. I paid a premium to get Roy - a top 3 goaltender on everyone list (unless they're certifiably insane), having stellar goaltending contributes to team defence as well. And with my lineup puck possesion wont be a problem, teams will be chasing me not vise versa...at least IMO and that is how I built the team.

God Bless Canada
05-12-2008, 07:55 PM
GBC, I love your reviews and your insight...we all appreciate it man. Ill pick a bone about my team defence though. I paid a premium to get Roy - a top 3 goaltender on everyone list (unless they're certifiably insane), having stellar goaltending contributes to team defence as well. And with my lineup puck possesion wont be a problem, teams will be chasing me not vise versa...at least IMO and that is how I built the team.
It's great that you have Roy, but the team defence in front of him simply isn't good enough. The blue-line corps is inadequate, although, as I said before, I like Morrow and Ramsey as a tandem. Roy is going to be facing a lot of shots.

Puck possession should be strong, but keep in mind: you're facing teams loaded with HHOF talent, and great team concepts, such as Nanaimo. You'll be facing teams loaded with rock-solid defensive presence, such as Kootenay and Trail. And you'll be facing teams that are incredibly physical, such as Calgary. And that's just your division. You won't be able to win simply by playing keep away. That strategy doesn't work in this thing. Not with the talent each team can throw out there.

Nalyd Psycho
05-13-2008, 06:31 AM
Montreal Sarasaurusrex:
-I for one really like your centers. They may not be elite, but they should compliment Hull really well, and with a player as awesome as Hull, complimenting him is priority #1.
-The second line is skilled, but can easily be out muscled, despite the manliest name in hockey history.
-The defense is tough to play, but may struggle to activate the offense.
-Goaltending is questionable.

Montreal Maroons:
-Speedy 1st line, but, I don't like lines where Morenz is the best defensive player. Not that he's bad, just too much pressure. Clark should make room though.
-One of the best 2nd lines. Francis should work very well with Conacher.
-Your bottom 6 and top 4 d-men should work great with your coach.
-Decent goaltending, Belfour is now a good pick up in a 32 team draft, pretty close to average.

Regina Pats:
-Obviously, awesome goaltending.
-Interesting 2nd line, not sure I like it though, but would be very interesting.
-Very well built 1st line. Not big on the talent, but I can really see that working well as a unit.
-Conversely, I'm not so fond of the build of the 3rd line. I think your 4th line may be more fearsome. Go Rat Go.
-Very defensive defense. Tough to play, but Duschene has his work cut out for him.

THE INGLEWOOD JACKS:
-Stellar 1st line.
-Nasty second line, but it will absolutely need Brian Leetch to be effective.
-Nice to see Lepine getting some love. Great shutdown guy. Him and Klukay should be effective.
-So thats where the offense on the blueline went. Solid corps.
-Effective budget goaltending.

Quebec Nordiques:
-I have questions about your #1 d-mans offensive contributions.:sarcasm:
-A very solid overall team.
-Two question marks: Primeau and Oates may be redundant and reduce versatility down the middle. A lot of your checking liners are more low-end second liners.

Toronto Maple Leafs:
-Your 3rd line should get 2nd line minutes. Can handle itself in a lot of situations and Punch should love them. May even be your best line.
-Nice balance of toughness and offense on the blueline, defensive fundamentals may be questionable though.
-Biggest problem is your forward corps is sub-par offensively.

The St. Catharines Teepees:
-Not a fan of Sittler as a 1st liner. IMO, he's quite overrated.
-Good two-way play from your forwards, but a lack of size and toughness.
-Well done defense and goal.

Lada Togliatti:
-Probably the best 1st line in the draft, obviously the Great One is an advantage, but, still.
-Second line is soft but effective.
-Bottom 6 is well rounded, but doesn't stand out.
-Howe and Cleghorn are great but the rest of the defense fails to impress.
-Goaltending is solid.

St Louis Eagles:
-Scary 1st line, but defensively lacking.
-Well rounded and versitile bottom 9, but, no wow factor.
-Smart defense, but, may lack toughness.
-Your coach is probably your best asset.

Nanaimo Clippers:
-Very small forward corps. Most have heart and skill, but, they'll get pushed around.
-Flawless defense.
-Great goaltending, but, not sure how they'll hold up 80 games plus playoffs.

The Springfield Isotopes:
-Nothing really to say. Nothing wow's me, but, I can't see any real flaw. Only possible flaw is whether the team lacks an extra gear or not.

Kootenay Ice:
-Sick defense. Just excellent.
-Odd second line, could be interesting, but lacks a playmaker IMO.
-Nice checking lines, 3rd line has some offensive juice.
-Goaltending is streaky but potentially great.

Nalyd Psycho
05-13-2008, 06:33 AM
Just realized, hadn't posted my roster:

The Minnesota Fighting Saints

GMs: Nalyd Psycho & FissionFire
Coach: Pat Burns
Captain: Jean Beliveau
Alternate Captains: Earl Seibert & Rod Langway

#7 Rick Martin-#4 Jean Beliveau-#18 Danny Gare
#9 Adam Graves-#8 Syd Howe-#10 Pavel Bure
#11! Nick Metz-#16 Bobby Holik-#28 Anders Kallur
#21! Bob Errey-#27! George "Red" Sullivan-#12 Bill Ezinicki

#5 Rod Langway-#17 Earl Seibert
#15! Alex Ragulin-#3! Eduard Ivanov
#55! Carol Vadnais-#20 Dallas Smith

#31! Harry "Hap" Holmes
#1 Mike Liut

Spares: #4! Hobey Baker; #2 Sylvain Lefebvre

Power Play Units
Graves-Beliveau-Bure
Vadnais-Seibert

Martin-Holik-Gare
Ragulin-Ivanov

Penalty Kill Units
Holik-Metz
Langway-Seibert

Sullivan-Kallur
Ragulin-Smith

arrbez
05-13-2008, 10:26 AM
THE INGLEWOOD JACKS:
-Stellar 1st line.
-Nasty second line, but it will absolutely need Brian Leetch to be effective.
-Nice to see Lepine getting some love. Great shutdown guy. Him and Klukay should be effective.
-So thats where the offense on the blueline went. Solid corps.
-Effective budget goaltending.

Just curious what you mean by the highlighted statement? Are you referring to the line's ability to move the puck up the ice? Obviously Stewart is slow, but I feel both Roenick and Cook are quite fast, and certainly skilled enough to carry the disk into the zone.

shawnmullin
05-13-2008, 11:29 AM
My roster was in the other thread, but I'll add it here.

Been busy, but will do some write ups later.

TRAIL SMOKE EATERS

Home Rink: Cominco Arena
GM: Shawn Mullin
Coach: Scotty Bowman
Assistant Coach: Claude Ruel
Captain: Bryan Trottier
Alternate Captain: Art Ross
Alternate Captain: Jim Peplinski

LW Aurele Joliat - C Bryan Trottier - RW Ken Hodge
LW Keith Tkachuk - C Igor Larionov - RW Martin St. Louis
LW Dean Prentice - C Rick MacLeish - RW Shane Doan
LW Dave Balon - C Joel Otto - RW Jim Peplinski

D Jacques Laperriere - D Harry Cameron
D Art Ross - D Leo Reise Jr.
D Dollard St. Laurent - D Joe Simpson

G Bill Durnan
G Charlie Hodge

Extras: LW/C Henrik Zetterberg, D Don Awrey

PP Unit 1: Joliat-Trottier-Hodge-Simpson-Cameron
PP Unit 2: Tkachuk-Larionov-St. Louis-Laperriere-Ross
PP Unit 3: Balon-MacLeish-Doan

PK Unit 1: Prentice-Otto-Laperriere-St. Laurent
PK Unit 2: Balon-Trottier-Ross-Reise Jr.
PK Unit 3: Larionov-Peplinski
PK Unit 4: Joliat-MacLeish

pitseleh
05-13-2008, 02:04 PM
-Great goaltending, but, not sure how they'll hold up 80 games plus playoffs.


Thanks for the thoughts Nalyd. Just wanted to address this point because we thought it might come up. It's a bit of a double standard to question a goalies ability to withstand an increase in the number of games but not apply that standard to forwards. Players like Frank McGee, Tommy Phillips, Scotty Davidson, Bruce and Hod Stuart, and Dubbie Bowie never played more than 20 games in a season (and in many cases no more than 10 games) yet the games played question only seems to come up for goalies.

Benedict was able to post one of his best seasons (1927/28) playing 53 games. There are plenty of goalies who played from the late thirties through to the fifties (i.e. Frank Brimsek) who saw their games played rise from the 45-55 games that Benedict was playing towards the end of his career to the 70 game range over the course of their career. I think it's reasonable to assume that Benedict could bump up his workload to 60 regular season games and playoffs with Dzurillia picking up the remaining games in the regular season without a hit in performance based on a certain level of relativity in measuring accomplishments.

Pwnasaurus
05-13-2008, 02:27 PM
It's a bit of a double standard to question a goalies ability to withstand an increase in the number of games but not apply that standard to forwards. Players like Frank McGee, Tommy Phillips, Scotty Davidson, Bruce and Hod Stuart, and Dubbie Bowie never played more than 20 games in a season (and in many cases no more than 10 games) yet the games played question only seems to come up for goalies.


None of those players will have near the impact their respective team's starting goalie will in their success or failure nor will most come close to playing a significant fraction of equal minutes. The goalies are scrutinized more than the forwards because of their unequaled impact not to mention their usually lofty draft status. The goalie starts thing doesn't really bother me at all come voting time to be honest.

pitseleh
05-13-2008, 02:41 PM
Lada is a very strong entry. Gretzky - Cook is a tremendous spearhead for the attack and is probably better than Gretzky - Bathgate not because of a real difference in talent between the RWs, but because Cook's style complements Gretz's better. Who to place in the left wing is an interesting question. There is a certain lack of toughness in the top 6 with really only Cook and Tonelli playing a power game, so it is probably best to use Bobrov on the top line and slot Tonelli in next to Federko and Middleton. Bobrov - Gretzky - Cook will not play much defense, but they sure will score.

I mentioned this before, but I think Lada is a much stronger team with Bobrov on the second unit. He was known for being a cherry-picker who didn't like to backcheck, and I see the top line being much more effective with a gritty player like Tonelli there. Bobrov's offensive was around him controlling the puck and using his offensive skills, and I think it takes away from his ability to do that if you have players like Gretzky and Cook who also like to have the puck on their stick. Bobrov can play on the second unit away from the top defensive pressure giving him much more offensive freedom and a couple of linemates who can focus on playing a bit more of a two-way game.

I just want to say that I love Lada's team as a whole though. It's like you have a better version of the Bread Line (with Gretzky as a rich man's Boucher and Tonelli as a rich man's Cook) on the top line, solid depth through the lineup and two #1 defensemen.

pitseleh
05-13-2008, 02:46 PM
None of those players will have near the impact their respective team's starting goalie will in their success or failure nor will most come close to playing a significant fraction of equal minutes. The goalies are scrutinized more than the forwards because of their unequaled impact not to mention their usually lofty draft status. The goalie starts thing doesn't really bother me at all come voting time to be honest.

I think that's a fair point, but I think you get into a slippery slope if you start getting down to that level of detail. There were older players who played 50-60 minutes a game over 50 game seasons, but it's unreasonable to assume they'd do anything of the sort in this draft. Goalies from the pre-WWII era played in every game, I just think it's a bit unfair to expect that they can't adapt to play in more games because they didn't have the opportunity to play in more games at the time.

Sturminator
05-13-2008, 03:13 PM
I mentioned this before, but I think Lada is a much stronger team with Bobrov on the second unit. He was known for being a cherry-picker who didn't like to backcheck, and I see the top line being much more effective with a gritty player like Tonelli there. Bobrov's offensive was around him controlling the puck and using his offensive skills, and I think it takes away from his ability to do that if you have players like Gretzky and Cook who also like to have the puck on their stick. Bobrov can play on the second unit away from the top defensive pressure giving him much more offensive freedom and a couple of linemates who can focus on playing a bit more of a two-way game.

The problem is that although I agree with you that Tonelli is a better fit for the top line, Bobrov on the second line is a bad combination of players. All three of Bobrov, Federko and Middleton were guys who liked to carry the puck and make plays, and none of them was physical. Bobrov was a cherry picker and Federko wasn't much of a backchecker, leaving Middleton as the defensive conscience of the line - not a great situation. There's a ton of offensive talent in Bobrov - Federko - Middleton, but I don't see those players gelling well, at all.

pitseleh
05-13-2008, 03:14 PM
If this is where we're doing this, then here's my team. And I'll keep reviews to this thread.

OTTAWA RCAF FLYERS

GMs: raleh and God Bless Canada
Coach: Tommy Gorman
Captain: Milt Schmidt
Alternate captain: Larry Robinson
Alternate captain: Hap Day
Alternate captain: Johnny Bucyk


FORWARDS
Big...Bad...Bruins line: #9 Johnny Bucyk-#15 Milt Schmidt-#8 Cam Neely
Second line: #27 Shayne Corson-#25 Jacques Lemaire-#18 Steve Larmer
Two-way line: #35 Mike McPhee-#11 Wayne Merrick-#20 Bobby Rousseau
Grind line: #12 Brenden Morrow-#14 Glen Skov-#13 Blair Russell

DEFENCEMEN
#19 Larry Robinson-#3 Clarence "Hap" Day
#6 Doug "Diesel" Mohns-#5 Bill Barilko
#10 Ted Harris-#7 Brad Maxwell

GOALTENDERS
#30 Gerry "Cheesy" Cheevers
#31 Hugh "Old Eagle Eyes" Lehman

GBC deserves a review for all the hard work he's put into this thread.

- Enough has been said about your top line that I won't say anything else.

- I love the makeup of your second line. They won't be the highest scoring second line by any stretch of the imagination, but they bring everything you could want in a line and can be out on the ice in any situation you could dream of.

- Your third line is quite good defensively but offensively they won't do a lot. McPhee was a 40 point player in the eighties, Merrick was the same in the seventies to the early eighties with a couple of 60 point seasons sprinkled in. Rousseau is quite strong offensively though for a defensively strong third liner.

- Fourth line is a strong combination of toughness and defensive ability. Their good enough that they won't only be used sparingly like some fourth lines.

- Love the top pairing. Day might not be the best #2, but his style complements Robinson very well and they'll be effective against nearly any type of top-line.

- I'm a big Mohns fan too, but I don't see Barilko as being a very good #4. He only has four and half seasons in the NHL and was only the third or fourth best defenseman on his team. He does have the post-season success, but in an ATD context I see him more as a bottom-pairing guy.

- Bottom pairing is solid albeit unspectacular.

Overall, I think you have a team built for low-scoring, tight checking games. All four of your lines can play at both ends of the ice and your defense can as well. I'm imagining there will be some teams in the Hewitt division that are not looking forward to playing your team in the playoffs.

pitseleh
05-13-2008, 03:23 PM
The problem is that although I agree with you that Tonelli is a better fit for the top line, Bobrov on the second line is a bad combination of players. All three of Bobrov, Federko and Middleton were guys who liked to carry the puck and make plays, and none of them was physical. Bobrov was a cherry picker and Federko wasn't much of a backchecker, leaving Middleton as the defensive conscience of the line - not a great situation. There's a ton of offensive talent in Bobrov - Federko - Middleton, but I don't see those players gelling well, at all.

That's true enough. I wonder if the lineup would work better like this (obviously depending on the matchup):

Tonelli-Gretzky-Cook
Murdoch-Federko-Middleton
Bobrov-Goyette-Sandstrom

Murdoch brings some grit, size, and defensive awareness to the second unit, and it gives Bobrov a strong defensive center and a gritty to cover up for his offensive adventures. Some teams would really struggle to contain all three of those lines while it leaves Marcotte-Kasper-Preston intact to have the primary defensive duties. It would very much be dependent on who Lada is playing as well though.

Nalyd Psycho
05-13-2008, 03:42 PM
Just curious what you mean by the highlighted statement? Are you referring to the line's ability to move the puck up the ice? Obviously Stewart is slow, but I feel both Roenick and Cook are quite fast, and certainly skilled enough to carry the disk into the zone.

Cook wasn't a liability, but from what I can gather, his play without the puck was much more important than his play with it. Boucher and Cook were the primary puck handlers. Roenick is good, not great, but good. His bigger problem is that he isn't a great playmaker. With Cook you have a great cycler, corner worker, two-way player and just all-round miscellaneous guy. Stewart is an amazing goal scorer and physical presence but not much else. Roenick is also a physical goal scorer, but offers less of that and more of other skills. He can play the role of puck carrier and playmaker, but, he's miscast in the role. If Roenick and Leetch work together on the role, then the line will be very successful.

nik jr
05-13-2008, 05:24 PM
That's true enough. I wonder if the lineup would work better like this (obviously depending on the matchup):

Tonelli-Gretzky-Cook
Murdoch-Federko-Middleton
Bobrov-Goyette-Sandstrom

Murdoch brings some grit, size, and defensive awareness to the second unit, and it gives Bobrov a strong defensive center and a gritty to cover up for his offensive adventures. Some teams would really struggle to contain all three of those lines while it leaves Marcotte-Kasper-Preston intact to have the primary defensive duties. It would very much be dependent on who Lada is playing as well though.
i've thought through many line combinations. one advantage i have in that is that several of my forwards could play different positions.

middleton started as a LW in NY, sandstrom could also play either wing. marcotte and bobrov apparently played all 3.

i've thought about:
marcotte--federko-middleton
bobrov--goyette--sandstrom
murdoch--kasper--preston

marcotte was very gritty and a great forechecker, and was decent offensively, so he would make an effective digger.
murdoch could replace him on the defensive line. but i think your idea is better. murdoch was a good checker, but i think marcotte is a safer bet, especially if i have to go against howe, lafleur, bathgate or geoffrion.

i have been thinking of ways to give goyette a bigger role. i may use your suggestion.
thanks pitseleh.

reckoning
05-13-2008, 08:14 PM
Here's my team, any criticisms or suggestions would be appreciated:

Ottawa 67s:

Head Coach: Lindy Ruff
Captain: Syl Apps
Alternates: Gordie Howe, King Clancy

Anatoli Firsov - Syl Apps - Gordie Howe
Gaye Stewart - Duke Keats - Vladimir Martinec
Craig Ramsay - Gregg Sheppard - Bengt Gustafsson
Vic Stasiuk- Dale Hunter - Claude Lemieux
Jimmy Roberts Dave Christian

Jimmy Thomson - King Clancy
Jan Suchy - Barry Beck
Keith Magnuson - Doug Crossman
Roman Hamrlik

Georges Vezina
Roger Crozier

PP#1 Firsov-Keats-Howe; Suchy-Beck
PP#2 Stewart-Apps-Martinec; Thomson-Clancy

PK#1 Ramsay-Sheppard; Thomson-Beck
PK#2 Apps-Gustafsson; Clancy-Crossman

Diving Pokecheck*
05-13-2008, 08:20 PM
Anatoli Firsov - Syl Apps - Gordie Howe
Gaye Stewart - Duke Keats - Vladimir Martinec
Craig Ramsay - Gregg Sheppard - Bengt Gustafsson
Vic Stasiuk- Dale Hunter - Claude Lemieux
Jimmy Roberts Dave Christian

Jimmy Thomson - King Clancy
Jan Suchy - Barry Beck
Keith Magnuson - Doug Crossman
Roman Hamrlik

Georges Vezina
Roger Crozier

I believe this is the first team whose goalies both have awards named after them. Why didn't you go all the way and get Billy Masterton or Conn Smythe?:)

FissionFire
05-13-2008, 09:04 PM
I believe this is the first team whose goalies both have awards named after them. Why didn't you go all the way and get Billy Masterton or Conn Smythe?:)

I think I just found the theme for any future ATD entry I make.

MXD
05-13-2008, 09:11 PM
I think I just found the theme for any future ATD entry I make.

Well...You ALREADY have Hap Holmes, that's a pretty solid start.

FissionFire
05-13-2008, 09:14 PM
Well...You ALREADY have Hap Holmes, that's a pretty solid start.

I know! I just need to trade for Maurice Richard and Mark Messier now and I'll be on my way lol.

MXD
05-13-2008, 10:17 PM
I know! I just need to trade for Maurice Richard and Mark Messier now and I'll be on my way lol.

...This said, I'll LOL when you'll pick Lester B. Pearson... or pick Scott or Rob to take his place.

pitseleh
05-13-2008, 10:19 PM
...This said, I'll LOL when you'll pick Lester B. Pearson... or pick Scott or Rob to take his place.

I'd like to see where he fits in Lady Byng and Lord Stanley.

Transplanted Caper
05-13-2008, 10:21 PM
I'd like to see where he fits in Lady Byng and Lord Stanley.

Not to mention the infaous, Molson Cup-Winner.

vancityluongo
05-13-2008, 10:23 PM
Don't forget James Norris and whoever the Hart was named after. (Cecil Hart?)

Oh, and Art Ross.

MXD
05-13-2008, 10:25 PM
Don't forget James Norris and whoever the Hart was named after. (Cecil Hart?)

Oh, and Art Ross.

Actually donated by Cecil's dad, David Hart.

vancityluongo
05-13-2008, 10:31 PM
Actually donated by Cecil's dad, David Hart.

Cool.


Coach Cecil Hart

XXX-Mark Messier-Rocket Richard

Art Ross-James Norris

Georges Vezina
Roger Crozier

You can fill in the rest FF. That's a pretty good start though.

Diving Pokecheck*
05-13-2008, 10:46 PM
Bill Masterton

Assistant coach Jack Adams.

FissionFire
05-13-2008, 11:40 PM
Too bad assembling that lineup would be impossible in a 32 team draft lol.

vancityluongo
05-13-2008, 11:57 PM
Too bad assembling that lineup would be impossible in a 32 team draft lol.

Why? Draft Rocket around 7-8, then trade your second, third, and fourth for the 14th-19th pick and two more lower picks.

:D

God Bless Canada
05-14-2008, 01:37 AM
*A much better entry than the last draft, and much closer to your team from ATD 7, which won a very tough division, and lost in the conference final.
*Likely the most dangerous first line in the draft. FF and I are likely alone in thinking that Howe is the best forward ever. He's partnered with an ultra-skilled, two-way playmaker in Apps. I have some concerns about Firsov's level of competition when he did his damage at the Worlds, but I don't deny his skill level or his place as a credible No. 1 LW in an ATD. (Then again, you could have Jonus Hoglund on that line, and it would still be one of the draft's best).
*I like the second line's make-up. Keats is such a strong second line centre with his skill level and toughness. Stewart's very underrated; gave him a long look for the second line LW spot on our team. Martinec should have all sorts of room to weave his magic on that line.
*We're both big fans of Gregg Sheppard. Of course, my appreciation for him stems from his playing days down here in Estevan. Go Bruins! Solid centre for the third line. Only thing you might want is a little more toughness to mix things up. All three guys are excellent defensively (especially Ramsay), but they're all cut from the same cloth.
*Love that fourth line. From the perspective of building a fourth line with a purpose and a direction, it's the best in the draft. They're all tough and rugged. They bring leadership. They can score. Play them as an energy/momentum line, play them as an agitator line, play them as a decent scoring line. Just play them. Glad they're not in my division, although they are in my conference, and an all Ottawa conference final isn't far-fetched. We just have to escape our divisions.
*Top pairing is excellent. Thomson isn't Hap Day, and Clancy isn't Gus Mortson, and some might think this tandem is a little on the small side, but Thomson and Clancy both bring speed, offensive ability (Thomson finished top 10 in assists twice at a time when defencemen didn't get involved offensively) and some serious pound-for-pound toughness. One day I'll reunite the Mortson-Thomson duo, and boast the best shut-down pairing in the draft.
*Glad that you resisted the temptation to unite Suchy and Clancy. I think size is overrated, but two defencemen that small wouldn't work. I think Barry Beck goes too soon, I don't think he's No. 4-calibre, but he should be okay with Suchy.
*Keith Magnuson is really underrated. Don't know how he'll do against some of the speedsters in your division, like Middleton and Selanne, but Magnuson is ultra-tough in his own end, he clears the front of the net, and nobody will take liberties on your guys with Magnuson on your team.
*You mentioned in another thread your thoughts on the importance of No. 7 d-men. If that's the case, why is Roman Hamrlik there? I don't think there's anything on Roman's resume, outside of his 1995-96 breakthrough (which wasn't sustained) that says ATD worthy.
*Some might not be impressed with Vezina's numbers, but his career came before goalies could leave their feet to make a save. I'm not a big style guy, but that's a big difference-maker. Good, but not great, No. 1, but he won't cost you a series.
*Ruff's done enough to warrant ATD consideration, but he will be outcoached by most teams.

Here's my team, any criticisms or suggestions would be appreciated:

Ottawa 67s:

Head Coach: Lindy Ruff
Captain: Syl Apps
Alternates: Gordie Howe, King Clancy

Anatoli Firsov - Syl Apps - Gordie Howe
Gaye Stewart - Duke Keats - Vladimir Martinec
Craig Ramsay - Gregg Sheppard - Bengt Gustafsson
Vic Stasiuk- Dale Hunter - Claude Lemieux
Jimmy Roberts Dave Christian

Jimmy Thomson - King Clancy
Jan Suchy - Barry Beck
Keith Magnuson - Doug Crossman
Roman Hamrlik

Georges Vezina
Roger Crozier

PP#1 Firsov-Keats-Howe; Suchy-Beck
PP#2 Stewart-Apps-Martinec; Thomson-Clancy

PK#1 Ramsay-Sheppard; Thomson-Beck
PK#2 Apps-Gustafsson; Clancy-Crossman

FissionFire
05-14-2008, 01:41 AM
FF and I are likely alone in thinking that Howe is the best forward ever.

We'll make them see the truth one of these days GBC.

God Bless Canada
05-14-2008, 01:53 AM
Posted in the other forum. Went with VanI's roster over FI2's, although you know adjustments will be made.
*The obvious first thing that stands out is their strength up the middle. Nobody beats the 1-2 Lemieux-Yzerman punch. It's the old saying - "If the left one don't get you, the right one will."
*The winger choices are interesting. Leclair might actually work better with Lemieux - the big, strong winger who played a physical but clean game. Bauer adds the speed and defensive presence to that line.
*You take a hit in size if you move Smith to the second line, but Bailey played a hard, physical game, and he'll open up a lot of room.
*Not ideal wingers for Mario and Yzerman, but very, very good wingers who won't hold them back. Goal-scoring won't be an issue for the top two lines.
*Good to see Dick Irvin's overall game finally make its way onto the third line.
*What contribution will the fourth line bring? Shut down line? Third scoring line? Grit line? Token five minute per night line?
*With VanI, you know it's not a matter of if he'll pick an unknown player, but when.
*An interesting defence. No No. 1, and not even an elite No. 2, but three good No. 2's who can chew up 21 or 22 minutes per game. Reardon's the defensive-minded toughie, Murphy's the smart and steady two-way player, and Wilson's the highly-skilled, hard-shooting PP quarterback. Jim Neilson also provides toughness. A Murphy-Neilson tandem will be tough to play against.
*Fuhr's a great big-save, big-game goalie. Will be interesting to watch his interaction with long-time rival Vernon.
*How long will it take for Tikhanov to alienate his team? I've seen him do it in just a few weeks.

Sid Smith - Mario Lemieux (C) - Bobby Bauer
John Leclair - Steve Yzerman (A) - Ace Bailey
George Hay - Dick Irvin, Sr. (A) - Tony Leswick
Ven Alexandrov - Alex Almetov - Konstantin Loktev
Jozef Golonka

Ken Reardon - Doug Wilson
Larry Murphy - Jim Neilson
Vas Pervukhin - Zin Bilyaletdinov
Harry Westwick

Grant Fuhr
Mike Vernon

God Bless Canada
05-14-2008, 02:22 AM
*Perhaps the most unpredictable team in the draft. Nobody saw half of the selections coming.
*They should actually be able to score some goals. First line is potent. Stastny had the second-most points in the 80s. Terrific offensive threat. Anderson is a great clutch scorer. Simmer's a big forward and a natural goal scorer who compliments Stastny's skills perfectly.
*Outstanding speed on the second line. Not sure about the toughness, but great speed and skill. Naslund wasn't big or tough, but nobody intimidated him. Is Cloutier tough enough to handle the grind of this draft.
*I think Tik is best suited to a defensive/two-way line role. On this team, he's going to be asked to be a hard-shooting defensive conscience on a third scoring line. And he'll be the only defensive presence, too, playing with Hemsky and Nilsson.
*Are you expecting any sort of a contribution from the fourth line? They're tough, but that's it. You can't count on them to play against the opponent's top line. They don't have the speed or the hockey sense to survive in the ATD.
*Remember what I said about the biggest "what if" in the draft? Michel Briere officially takes the cake.
*I really like Clapper. I don't know if I would have picked him 30-something, but you have to get the guy you want early in the draft. One of the best all-round forces in the draft.
*The defence goes downhill after that. Reinhart and Routsalainen are ATD worthy, but as third-pairing guys. That second pairing should generate a fair amount of offence. It will also generate a lot of frustration for Hall.
*Redden might be good enough to be a No. 7. Langevin and Gregg are MLD guys. They should not be picked in the ATD. Langevin as a top-pairing guy might be the biggest reach since I've been a part of this thing.
*MB, I take it back. You don't have the worst team defence in the draft. Donair City does.
*Glenn Hall will have his work cut out for him. He'll get a lot of offensive support from a team with three lines that can score, and defencemen like Clapper, Reinhart and Routsalainen who can definitely contribute offensively. But he's got a team in front of him that has a lot of players with little commitment defensively. Good thing that he's one of the best goalies ever.
*Bauer's an icon, but I think he should be an assistant coach, or he should have an assistant. Someone to handle the egos.


Coach: Father David Bauer

Goalies:
Glen Hall
Pete Peeters

Defence:
Dit Clapper-Dave Langevin
Reijo Routsalainen-Paul Reinhart
Wade Redden-Randy Gregg

Forwards:

Charlie Simmer-Peter Stastny-Glenn Anderson
Mats Naslund-Mike Modano-Real Cloutier
Esa Tikkanen-Kent Nilsson-Ales Hemsky
Bob Probert-Kevin McLelland-Kelly Buchberger

Spares:
Gary Nylund
Dave Semenko
Michel Briere

Sturminator
05-14-2008, 02:37 AM
marcotte was very gritty and a great forechecker, and was decent offensively, so he would make an effective digger.
murdoch could replace him on the defensive line. but i think your idea is better. murdoch was a good checker, but i think marcotte is a safer bet, especially if i have to go against howe, lafleur, bathgate or geoffrion.

I agree with you here about Marcotte, nik. I think that's a good decision. There are basically two reasons Springfield is a left wing lock team:

1. Teemu Selanne was available in the late 5th and after drafting him it was clear our left wings on the first two lines would end up being support players.

2. There is a ludicrous amount of talent at right wing in our division. Just off the top of my head, I know that Howe, Cook, Geoffrion, LaFleur, Cournoyer, Bathgate and Selanne are in the division. Of course, the Isotopes don't have to defend the latter two, but still - it's a frightening collection of players at the position. Bill Barber wasn't the best value pick Rick and I made, but he might have been the most important to the composition of the team, given that we won't be matching lines and he'll generally go against other first liners, as he did in Philly. There are very few left wings with Barber's combination of strength, speed and checking ability who can also score. He's got his work cut out for him.

Leaf Lander
05-14-2008, 02:47 AM
Originally Posted by God Bless Canada
FF and I are likely alone in thinking that Howe is the best forward ever.

FissionFire
We'll make them see the truth one of these days GBC.

he may be the most complete player in history. Def #2 behind gretzky or Orr.

Gretzky dominated offensivley for a decade and orr was decades ahead of everyone else and he played the D like no one else before him.

ck26
05-14-2008, 04:55 AM
Gordie Howe is the best forward ever.

Gordie Howe is the best player ever. Better than Orr.

Sturminator
05-14-2008, 05:55 AM
Thanks for the thoughts Nalyd. Just wanted to address this point because we thought it might come up. It's a bit of a double standard to question a goalies ability to withstand an increase in the number of games but not apply that standard to forwards. Players like Frank McGee, Tommy Phillips, Scotty Davidson, Bruce and Hod Stuart, and Dubbie Bowie never played more than 20 games in a season (and in many cases no more than 10 games) yet the games played question only seems to come up for goalies.

Skaters from that era played virtually the full 60 minutes most of the time, however, meaning that their TOI was much greater than the number of games played would suggest, and as pwna pointed out, their roles on ATD teams are not nearly as prominent. I do knock old time goalies a bit, not for playing style, but because I think their backups will generally need to play 20-30 regular season games and 1-2 games in a 7 game playoff series. You just can't ride the real old-timers as hard.

shawnmullin
05-14-2008, 06:20 AM
I think Gordie Howe is fantastic, but I just don't think I could see an argument for him as greater than Gretzky or Orr.

I could see drafting him before Gretzky in this draft because there are more great first line Cs than first line RWs... and their talent is close enough to take that leap. I could also see someone arguing that Howe is a more "complete" player than Gretz. He also obviously has longevity. Better? I don't think I could be convinced.

That's no insult to Howe mind you. I think the top 4 are absurdly close while offering very unique styles. The one other thing you can say for Howe and Orr is that they are unquestionably the greatest RW/Winger or Defenceman of all time. Gretzky and Lemieux could cause some debate.

Leaf Lander
05-14-2008, 02:31 PM
Gordie Howe is the best forward ever.

Gordie Howe is the best player ever. Better than Orr.

The NHL Station should have a week playing games and highlights for the top 5 best ever contenders

Gretzky Howe Orr Lemiuex Richard Hull Belliveau Harvey and wendel clark

Goalies not included sawchuk roy brodeur could be mentioned.

monster_bertuzzi
05-14-2008, 07:36 PM
Give me Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux over Howe.

monster_bertuzzi
05-14-2008, 07:40 PM
1)Gretzky
2)Orr
3)Lemieux
4)Howe
5)Richard
6)Hull
7)Harvey

God Bless Canada
05-14-2008, 08:10 PM
I think Gordie Howe is fantastic, but I just don't think I could see an argument for him as greater than Gretzky or Orr.

I could see drafting him before Gretzky in this draft because there are more great first line Cs than first line RWs... and their talent is close enough to take that leap. I could also see someone arguing that Howe is a more "complete" player than Gretz. He also obviously has longevity. Better? I don't think I could be convinced.

That's no insult to Howe mind you. I think the top 4 are absurdly close while offering very unique styles. The one other thing you can say for Howe and Orr is that they are unquestionably the greatest RW/Winger or Defenceman of all time. Gretzky and Lemieux could cause some debate.
I think Orr's the best player ever. Nobody has ever been able to do so many things at such a high level as Bobby Orr.

I think Gretzky's the best offensive player ever. Certainly the smartest ever, the best thinker and the best on-ice vision. Hard to defend a guy who knows what you'll do before you do.

I think Lemieux had the potential to be the best of the bunch. Maybe not as fast as Orr, or as smart as Gretz. But he had all these magnificent skills, and he was 6'4". I'm not a big size guy, but when you have a guy who has all that talent and imagination and creativity, and you put it in a 6'4" frame, it's unstoppable. I don't think Mario had the passion for the game (especially early in his career) that Orr, Howe and Gretz had, and it's what kept him from being the best ever.

Howe isn't as good offensively as Wayne or Mario. I'll grant everyone that. But when you look at all that Howe brought to the game - the toughness, the physical play, the dominance along the boards - I think Howe's game trumps Mario's and Wayne's. Now, I admit I have some bias, because I put a big emphasis on physical play, and well, Howe's a small-town Saskatchewan boy. (His hometown of Floral no longer exists). But everything he brings to the game and to a team, IMO, overcomes the slight edge that Mario and Wayne have offensively. (Gordie would have been a 175-200 point player if he played his prime years in the 70s, 80s and 90s, with the longer schedule, the inclusion of defencemen in the offensive game, and the talent dilution, especially in goal, due to expansion. He was playing against an HHOF goalie every night).

And yeah, if I ever get the second overall pick, assuming raleh's okay with it, we'll pick Bobby or Gordie. Whoever's available.

shawnmullin
05-14-2008, 08:37 PM
You'd take Hull over Wayne? Really?

Again I see the LW/RW depth issue, but I don't think Hull does nearyl as much to make his 'mates better.

pitseleh
05-14-2008, 08:43 PM
You'd take Hull over Wayne? Really?

Again I see the LW/RW depth issue, but I don't think Hull does nearyl as much to make his 'mates better.

He meant that other Bobby, the one who wore #4.

monster_bertuzzi
05-14-2008, 09:03 PM
I dont buy the arguement that Howe would have been a 175-200 point player had he played in the 70's and 80's in his prime. It could be argued that with such tiny goalie equipment it may have helped his stats among others. I mean we've been over this...watching the tape of a game in the 50's where a player barrels down the right wing, crosses the blue line and lets a weak little snapper go and it goes right through the goalie as if he werent there. It takes a freakish player to regularly score around 200 points a season - in any era, and there have only been two in history.

MXD
05-14-2008, 09:17 PM
Gordie Howe is the best forward ever.

Gordie Howe is the best player ever. Better than Orr.

Geezzzz... Okay, he could do pretty much everything on the ice, but best player ever....?!?!?!

shawnmullin
05-14-2008, 09:36 PM
He meant that other Bobby, the one who wore #4.

Oh right, I just assumed Orr goes 1 ;)

FissionFire
05-14-2008, 11:43 PM
Since I think some of the people here are severly underrating the dominance of one Gordon Howe, I'll repost something I wrote for the Top 100 project:

Source: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=12647663&postcount=48
I'm very suprised at some of the comments against Gordie Howe.

First, I'm curious as to why his longevity seems to be viewed as a mark against him by some. The best hockey player doesn't mean the best peak only. I'd think a man maintaining dominance well into his 40s would be more proof that he's one of the greatest ever since either age has no effect on the man or his skills and smarts were so elite that he was able to adjust and continue to be one of the best in the game even as his physical body began to decline. That's something Mario Lemieux and Bobby Orr couldn't do. It's also something Wayne Gretzky did to a lesser extent.

Secondly, I think it's unfair to say Howe's fame is a product of his longevity. Like Chris Chelios today, I think his longevity overshadows how great he was in his prime. If the first thing you think of when you hear Gordie Howe is his longevity it's possible that you haven't fully understood how great he was. I know Mr. Hockey is just a gimmick name, but it was given to him and nobody argued it. He played in the era against some of the best right wings in history and he came out being viewed as the greatest hockey player in history until Orr and Gretzky entered the debate. Children wanted to be Gordie Howe. Even one of his chief rivals in this debate, Wayne Gretzky, idolized the man growing up and he chose 99 as a tribute to Gordie.

I know stats are generally frowned upon in this forum, but I feel in this case they are necessary because some of the comments about Howe make me wonder if his dominance during his prime is really understood.

He was top 5 in NHL scoring for 20 straight seasons. TWENTY SEASONS, in an era where a 20 year career was a rarity. Unlike Gretzky, Lemieux, or Orr he was also ambidextrous. He used no curve and shot forehand both ways. How many players can say that? In his time he was larger and stronger than most or all of his peers and dominated physically. Even as an 18tr old rookie he created a buzz throughout the league when he stepped up to a Maurice Richard challenge and knocked him unconcious with one punch. If Eddie Shore was mean, Gordie Howe might have been meaner still. This is a guy who got a fighting major in the All-Star game in '48. He might be the most competative player ever. He changed his game over the years and took fewer penalties. He came back from a life-threatening injury when he fractured his skull trying to check Ted Kennedy in a playoff game. His stamina was widely accepted to be among the best and in an era where top players generally played 20-30 minutes a night, he would often play 45 or more. Even Wayne Gretzky never eclipsed Howe's career goals mark when you combine NHL and WHA. Howe scored an incredible 975 between the leagues to Gretzky's 931. He played the final 7 years of his career with severe arthritis in his wrist that led to his first retirement after the 1970-71 season. He scored at a PPG clip in the Summit Series in 1974-75.

* First or second team All-Star every season from 1949-1970 except for 1955, or 21 times in the NHL in 22 seasons
* Had his best statistical season at the age of 40 (44-59-103 +45)
* Top 5 in points in the NHL 20 times (1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969)
* Top 5 in goals in the NHL 13 times (1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1963, 1965, 1968, 1969)
* Top 5 in assists in the NHL 17 times (1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1956, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1969)
* Top 5 in PIM in the NHL 1 time (1954)
* 6 Art Ross Trophies (1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1957, 1963)
* 6 Hart Trophies (1952, 1953, 1957, 1958, 1960, 1963)
* Lester Patrick Trophy (1967)

Very impressive list for sure, but it's the level that he dominated those scoring races that sets him apart:

1950-51: 23.26% scoring margin (86 to 66) Age: 22
1951-52: 19.75% scoring margin (86 to 69) Age: 23
1952-53: 23.26% scoring margin (95 to 71) Age: 24
1953-54: 17.28% scoring margin (81 to 67) Age: 25
1956-57: 4.49% scoring margin (89 to 85) Age: 28
1962-63: 5.81% scoring margin (86 to 81) Age: 34

That wasn't against weak competition either. That was against players who are all-time greats and likely to be in our final top 10 to top 50. That's a level of dominance only Gretzky can rival, and that margin only gets larger if you compare it you take out his linemates.

Wayne Gretzky
1980-81: 17.68% scoring margin (164 to 135) Age: 19
1981-82: 30.66% scoring margin (212 to 147) Age: 20
1982-83: 36.73% scoring margin (196 to 124) Age: 21
1983-84: 38.54% scoring margin (205 to 126) Age: 22
1984-85: 35.10% scoring margin (208 to 135) Age: 23
1985-86: 34.42% scoring margin (212 to 141) Age: 24
1986-87: 40.98% scoring margin (183 to 108) Age: 25
1989-90: 9.15% scoring margin (142 to 129) Age: 28
1990-91: 19.63% scoring margin (163 to 131) Age: 29
1993-94: 7.69% scoring margin (130 to 120) Age: 32

How do Lemieux and Orr compare?

Mario Lemieux
1987-88: 11.31% scoring margin (168 to 149) Age: 21
1988-89: 15.58% scoring margin (199 to 168) Age: 22
1991-92: 6.11% scoring margin (131 to 123) Age: 25
1992-93: 7.50% scoring margin (160 to 148) Age: 26
1995-96: 7.45% scoring margin (161 to 149) Age: 29
1996-97: 10.66% scoring margin (122 to 109) Age: 30

Bobby Orr
1969-70: 17.50% scoring margin (120 to 99) Age: 21
1974-75: 5.93% scoring margin (135 to 127) Age: 26

Lemieux's never had a season where he dominated his peers from a scoring perspective the way Gretzky and Howe did. The argument that he had to compete with Gretzky is moot since Gretzky had to compete with him and many of his season Wayne wasn't even the #2 scorer in the NHL. Orr had that first Art Ross season at a level where only two players have ever gone, but it's not fair to compare him with Howe and Gretzky directly since as a defenseman his accomplishments are even more staggering. Just a quick look over the scoring leaders in the NHL that the only players other than Howe and Gretzky to have at least a 20.00% scoring margin in a season were Bill Cowley (1940-41 @ 29.03%), Howie Horenz (1927-28 @ 23.53%), and Phil Esposito (1972-73 @ 20.00%).

Comparing the competition levels would seem to favor Gretzky and Lemieux, but does it really? They mainly competed with each other for a short time before Wayne's age began to take a toll into his mid 30's. By then, Lemieux was competing mainly against himself and his health. In fact, Lemieux never played every game in any single season in his entire career, topping out at 79 games in his sophomore season and reaching the 70 games margin on 6 times. He was great, but he was brittle even in his early years. Part of greatness in my opinion is the ability to be able to play when called upon and Lemieux could never be counted upon for a full schedule. Gordie Howe, by contrast, missed only 35 games from 1949-50 until his first retirement after the 1970-71 season, and 15 of those games were in his final year as a 41 year old. He didn't miss a single regular season game the year after nearly dying when he fractured his skull in the 1949-50 playoffs. He not only had longevity, he had durability. Gretzky's main competition were Lafleur, Dionne, Bossy, and Peter Stastny early then Lemieux, Messier, and Yzerman later. Lemieux competed early with Gretzky, Messier, and Yzerman and later with Jagr, Sakic, and Selanne. Howe's early competition were Richard, Lindsay, Beliveau, Max Bentley, Schmidt, Geoffrion, Abel, and Delvecchio early then Dickie Moore, Beliveau, Bathgate, Bobby Hull, Mikita, Mahovlich, and Henri Richard later. I'd give the edge in competition to Howe here. He not only dominated, he dominated against players who will be highly ranked on this list, 3 of which are likely to be top 10.

Now you look at Howe's WHA career where he was already in his mid-to-late 40s. The competition level wasn't as high but he still won the MVP award his first season as a 45 year old (after which the league renamed the MVP trophy to Gordie Howe Trophy in his honor). It wasn't just a gift trophy either, he finished 3rd in scoring that season and had 100 points, 5 more than Bobby Hull. He led Houston to consecutive Avco World Trophy titles in his first two seasons before being swept by Hull's Winnepeg team in the 1975-76 finals. He put up another 100+ point season that year at the age of 47, the last time he reached triple digits. He went to the New England team in the 1977-78 season and again led them to the finals only to once again lose to Hull and the Jets in a sweep. When the league folded after the 1978-79 season, Howe was the 7th leading scorer in league history with 508pts in 419 games, all done from the ages of 45 through 50 on a severly arthritic wrist. He played his final season, at 51, for the Hartford Whalers and didn't miss a single game while average a bit over 0.5ppg and was a plus player at +9. As a 51 year old he still able to compete at an NHL level and was tied for 3rd in playoff scoring on the team that season.

I'm probably rambling now, but I just feel that the accomplishments of Gordie Howe aren't fully appreciated by everyone, so this is my attempt to change your opinion. Sure, he played for a long time but he played at an elite level for a long time, not as a scrub or someone who simply piled up numbers because he hung on.

Source: http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=12654882&postcount=61
I just ran across a really nice piece on Gordie Howe written by Larry Schwartz for ESPN. I have to admit I learned a few things I didn't know before. He used to be called "Mr. Elbows" lol. Also I guess that facial tic he has was a result of the head-first collision into the boards that almost killed him. Also, apparently the Rangers had a chance to get him in a tryout at 15 but passed.

* First player in NHL history to score 90 points in a season in the 1952-53 season. Not until the 1960-61 (Geoffrion and Beliveau) did another player match that feat.
* Became the all-time NHL scoring leader on 1/16/60 at the age of 30 when he scored his 947th point to pass Maurice Richard.
* Became the all-time NHL goal leader on 11/10/63 at the age of 34 when he scored his 546th goal to pass Maurice Richard.

Excellent read if you have 5 minutes. Howe kept going and going and ... (http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Howe_Gordie.html)

For those of you not familiar with Howe's reputation as a fighter, Murray Greig of the Edmonton Sun called him the top Toughguy that he'd ever seen. Greig has some good credentials when it comes to fighting as well. He's a boxing trainer and manager who's be involved in fights across Canada, as well as world title matches. Here's the article: Top 10 Toughguys; The best hockey fighters of all time (http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Hockey/News/2007/01/05/3195546-sun.html). This is an excerpt from it sepcifically about the famous Howe - Fontinato brawl.

Just as the tension seemed diffused, however, Rangers tough guy Lou Fontinato - six-foot-two and 220 pounds - came roaring in from the blue line and suckered the unsuspecting Howe with three hellacious lefts to the head. Fontinato, the NHL's reigning penalty king, had forged a league-wide reputation as a formidable heavyweight by resorting to such tactics to leave opposing players crumpled in a heap.

But Howe barely budged.

Instead, he shook off the punches, then grabbed Fontinato by the throat and pulled him in. At the same time, he cocked his left fist and fired a single punch that shattered Fontinato's cheek bone. Propping up the dazed Ranger with his right arm, Howe threw another punch that broke Fontinato's nose. A third left opened a huge gash over his eye. A fourth split both lips.

One of Fontinato's teammates later said Howe's punches "sounded like an axe splitting wood."

Nobody made a move as Howe delivered the coup de grace, a short, chopping right that dropped Fontinato face-first in a bloody heap. The Detroit star then turned and skated directly to the penalty box. Fontinato went to hospital.

Another accounting of the bout: The Night Gordie Howe Answered With His Fists: Jukebox John Takes You Back To 1959 (http://sportsreviewmagazine.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=1722)
A video which includes one of the rare pictures of Fontinato after the fight: Gordie Howe Is The Greatest Of Them All (http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/hockey/comments/gordie_howe_is_the_greatest_of_them_all/)

Apparently LIFE Magazine had someone at the game with rink-side seats for a story and they published a 2-page article dedicated to the fight with pictures which were pretty gruesome. I'm trying to track down the exact issue it appeared in so I can hit the library and read a primary source accounting of the bout.

And when the Rangers missed the playoffs that season by losing 6 of the final 7 games after that fight their coach Phil Watson blamed Howe: “We never got over Louie’s pasting. His nose looked like a subway hit it.”. So Gordie's fighting prowess but at a level that he could demoralize entire teams with it apparently.

Hopefully this opens a few eyes to the sheer dominance that was Mr. Hockey.

I recommend reading this entire thread for a ton of debate on Gretzky vs. Howe vs. Orr vs. Lemieux.

God Bless Canada
05-14-2008, 11:50 PM
Geezzzz... Okay, he could do pretty much everything on the ice, but best player ever....?!?!?!
You can definitely make a case for him as the best ever. People point to Gretzky's place as the No. 1 of all-time based on his finish in the THN top 100 list. He beat Orr AND Howe by just a few votes. Mario was a distant fourth.

There were years in which Gordie was the only player over a point-per-game. The late 40s and early 50s were the toughest time to score since the forward pass was introduced. He was scoring at a clip of 100 points (pro-rated over the course of an 82-game season) at a time when the next-best guys would have been scoring at a pro-rated 70-80-point clip. A point-per-game in the late 40s and early 50 would be equivalent to 120-150 points in the 70s, 80s and much of the 90s.

shawnmullin
05-14-2008, 11:54 PM
Fission I don't think anyone doubts Gordie Howe at all. It just seems the majority have him as either the second or third best forward ever.

VanIslander
05-15-2008, 12:42 AM
Isn't it well known that Howe, Orr and Gretzky are each arguably the best of all time? You gotta be a homer to think otherwise.

There certainly have been smart, experienced, respected past NHLers who've argued each case.

(I remember when Don Cherry's argument for Orr as better than Howe was a a lively topic of debate)

God Bless Canada
05-15-2008, 02:14 PM
I think this is the last team to be reviewed. If your team hasn't been hacked by me, let me know. I enjoy doing these things. (And it only takes me about 10 minutes, for those who are wondering)...
*Outside of the vaunted Big...Bad...Bruins Line, your first line is probably the toughest in the draft. Lindros and Shanahan give you that imposing combination of size, toughness and skill, and even Taylor brought a lot of toughness to the ice. Taylor's really underrated, but I think you picked him too soon, and I think he's better suited to second line duty. (A role raleh and I had him in last draft).
*In the same breath, I think your second line could use a little more sandpaper. Unless you want Crosby to play that role. It really is a one-dimensional line, but there are three guys who all have game-breaker potential. It's one of the most potent second lines in the draft. I'm not a fan of picking young players in this thing, but Crosby is, at most, two seasons away from being a top 200 pick in this thing.
*Lots of speed on the third line. I love Marty Gelinas. If Trevor Linden retires, and Marty sticks around for another year, Marty will be my favourite player in the league. I've been a big Marty Gelinas fan since his days on the Edmonton Oilers' Kid Line in the 1990 playoffs. So it pains me to say that I think he's out of place. Might be good enough to be a fourth line player in a 32-team ATD, might be better off in the MLD. Love his speed and grit and character. I don't think he's good enough defensively to be on a defensive line. Madden and Nystrom are excellent for their roles. No matter what, that line can keep up with any line in the draft.
*Tumba Johnasson sticks out like a sore thumb on the fourth line. It's not a scoring line, which is the role he's best suited to. Is Tumba tough enough to fit in on a line with Shack and McCarty? If you swap Shack and Gelinas, you get a little more scoring for the fourth line, but then McCarty sticks out. And I don't think McCarty is good enough for this draft.
*Incidentally, I love the Eddie Shack pick. Great interview. Great party guy. Likely holds the world record for most DUI's.
*Not a fan of Phil Housley as a No. 1 defenceman. I think he's an okay one-dimensional No. 2 (he's a guy I'll never have on my team, incidentally), but he shouldn't be your No. 1. Derian Hatcher has his work cut out for him, not just as Housley's defensive conscience, but Hatcher could have some problems against the fleet-footed forwards in your division.
*You should be able to get lots of scoring from the defence. Housley and Liapkin can provide a lot of offence. Hartsburg is very underrated offensively. Even Wesley can capably move the puck.
*Glen Wesley is just a smart, steady two-way defenceman. I think he's similar to Jimmy Watson - not flashy, doesn't do anything that gets noticed. Just plays that steady, no-frills game. Makes the good first pass, but nothing spectacular. Can work a second PP unit. Takes care of his own zone. Doesn't control the game physically, but rarely gets beat or loses a battle. Solid. Best games are when you don't notice him.
*Tretiak might have the most divergent rating around here. Some guys rate him very highly. Other rate him quite low on the scale for No. 1 goalies. And it's for the same reason - that mystery element that goes along with limited viewing. You'll get some strong support from some GMs because you have Tretiak. You'll be punished by others because of him.
*GBC says: he's somewhere in between. He's not in the Roy/Plante/Hasek/Hall/Sawchuk class. He's better than guys like Lumley, Vachon, Holmes and Rayner. In other words: he won't hurt you, and he might be able to steal a game, but he won't be a difference maker.
*Osgood's likely the comeback player of the year. I grudgingly admit he's an okay back-up for this thing, although I'd like a back-up with a little more consistency.

Brendan Shanahan-Eric Lindros-Dave Taylor
Frank Mahovlich-Sidney Crosby-Alexander Mogilny
Marty Gelinas-John Madden-Bob Nystrom
Eddie Shack-Tumba Johansson-Darren McCarty
Guyle Fielder

Phil Housley-Derian Hatcher
Cy Wentworth-Craig Hartsburg
Glen Wesley-Yuri Liapkin
Sandis Ozolinsh-Bruce Driver

Vladislav Tretiak
Chris Osgood

Coach - Vsevledov Bobrov (Glad I'm not in radio)

VanIslander
05-15-2008, 11:16 PM
I grudgingly admit he's an okay back-up for this thing
Because he has had ONE decent playoffs? History is full of guys who've done more and been more impressive doing it. There are several undrafted goalies (we'll see them in the MLD this time around) that are MUCH better than Osgood.

Osgood is an 'okay', below average, THIRD goalie in an ATD context but really should be a MLD goalie in even a 40-team ATD context.

shawnmullin
05-15-2008, 11:19 PM
Osgood is sure making a case for himself now. He is a significantly better goalie today than I remember him in the prime of his career. Being willing and able to re-invent yourself like that is a huge credit to his mental toughness and athletic ability.

FissionFire
05-19-2008, 12:06 AM
I'll be posting Round 1 playoff matchups tomorrow morning so anyone who hasn't gotten their votes in yet has until then to submit them.

ck26
05-19-2008, 12:16 AM
I'll be posting Round 1 playoff matchups tomorrow morning so anyone who hasn't gotten their votes in yet has until then to submit them.I'm PM'ing my votes in 6 or 7 hours.

FissionFire
05-19-2008, 11:16 AM
I've recently been informed that last weekend was a sort of extended weekend for people and a couple have said they couldn't vote because of that. I'm extending the voting period one day as such to allow those who wish the participate the time to do so. The new deadline will be Monday 5/19 at midnight, or midnight tonight if you prefer. I'll send out another round of PMs to all GMs yet to vote to alert them of the change.

Leaf Lander
05-19-2008, 05:23 PM
Osgood is sure making a case for himself now. He is a significantly better goalie today than I remember him in the prime of his career. Being willing and able to re-invent yourself like that is a huge credit to his mental toughness and athletic ability.

he does have over 300 career wins

Leaf Lander
05-19-2008, 05:28 PM
Goalies
The statistics listed include the 2006–07 NHL season and the 2006–07 NHL playoffs Active goalies (as of September 2007) are listed in boldface.


[edit] All-time leaders (goalies)

[edit] Regular season wins (all-time)
Patrick Roy, 551
Martin Brodeur, 538
Ed Belfour, 484
Curtis Joseph, 449
Terry Sawchuk, 447
Jacques Plante, 437
Tony Esposito, 423
Glenn Hall, 407
Grant Fuhr, 403
Dominik Hasek, 389
Mike Vernon, 385
John Vanbiesbrouck, 374
Andy Moog, 372
Tom Barrasso, 369
Chris Osgood, 363
Rogatien Vachon, 355
Gump Worsley, 335
Harry Lumley, 330
Sean Burke, 324
Billy Smith, 305

[edit] Regular season shutouts (all-time)
Terry Sawchuk, 103
Martin Brodeur, 96
George Hainsworth, 94
Glenn Hall, 84
Jacques Plante, 82
Alex Connell, 81
Dominik Hasek, 81
Tiny Thompson, 81
Ed Belfour, 76
Tony Esposito, 76
Lorne Chabot, 73
Harry Lumley, 71
Roy Worters, 67
Patrick Roy, 66
Turk Broda, 62
John Ross Roach, 58
Clint Benedict, 55
Ed Giacomin, 54
Bernie Parent, 54
Curtis Joseph, 51

[edit] Playoff wins (all-time)
Patrick Roy, 151
Martin Brodeur, 95
Grant Fuhr, 92
Ed Belfour, 88
Billy Smith, 88
Ken Dryden, 80
Mike Vernon, 77
Jacques Plante, 71
Andy Moog, 68
Curtis Joseph, 63

[edit] Playoff shutouts (all-time)
Patrick Roy, 23
Martin Brodeur, 22
Curtis Joseph, 16
Clint Benedict, 15
Dominik Hasek, 15
Ed Belfour, 14
Jacques Plante, 14
Turk Broda, 13
Terry Sawchuk, 12
Ken Dryden,
Chris Osgood, 10

[edit] Career goals against average
Alex Connell, 1.91
George Hainsworth, 1.93
Chuck Gardiner, 2.02
Lorne Chabot, 2.04
Roman Cechmanek, 2.08
Tiny Thompson, 2.08
Dave Kerr, 2.15
Marty Turco, 2.15
Niklas Backstrom, 2.17
Martin Brodeur, 2.17
Dominik Hasek, 2.20
Ken Dryden, 2.24
Henrik Lundqvist, 2.27
Roy Worters, 2.27
Clint Benedict, 2.30
Manny Legace, 2.31
Roman Turek, 2.31
Bill Durnan, 2.35
Gerry McNeil, 2.35
Dan Ellis, 2.36
Miikka Kiprusoff, 2.37
Evgeni Nabokov, 2.37
Jacques Plante, 2.38
Jean-Sebastien Giguere, 2.43
Cristobal Huet, 2.43

[edit] Active leaders

[edit] Regular season wins (active)
Martin Brodeur, 538
Curtis Joseph, 449
Dominik Hasek, 389
Chris Osgood, 363
Olaf Kolzig, 301
Nikolai Khabibulin, 274
Jocelyn Thibault, 238
Evgeni Nabokov, 208
Marty Turco, 207

[edit] Regular season shutouts (active)
Martin Brodeur, 96
Dominik Hasek, 81
Curtis Joseph, 51
Chris Osgood, 47
Evgeni Nabokov, 40
Jocelyn Thibault, 39
Nikolai Khabibulin, 38
Roberto Luongo, 38
Olaf Kolzig,
Patrick Lalime, 35
Marty Turco, 33
Jean-Sebastien Giguere, 29
Miikka Kiprusoff, 26
Jose Theodore, 26
Tomas Vokoun, 25
Martin Biron, 23
Manny Legace, 23

[edit] Playoff wins (active)
Martin Brodeur, 95
Curtis Joseph, 63
Dominik Hasek, 61
Chris Osgood, 45

[edit] Playoff shutouts (active)
Martin Brodeur, 22
Curtis Joseph, 16
Dominik Hasek, 15
Chris Osgood, 10


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_National_Hockey_League_statistical_leaders #Regular_season_wins_.28all-time.29

Leaf Lander
05-19-2008, 05:30 PM
I've recently been informed that last weekend was a sort of extended weekend for people and a couple have said they couldn't vote because of that. I'm extending the voting period one day as such to allow those who wish the participate the time to do so. The new deadline will be Monday 5/19 at midnight, or midnight tonight if you prefer. I'll send out another round of PMs to all GMs yet to vote to alert them of the change.

Thats great how many votes do you have so far!

Transplanted Caper
05-19-2008, 09:06 PM
I'll be posting Round 1 playoff matchups tomorrow morning so anyone who hasn't gotten their votes in yet has until then to submit them.

Excellent. Can't wait too see how my team faired.:)

vancityluongo
05-20-2008, 12:29 AM
I've recently been informed that last weekend was a sort of extended weekend for people and a couple have said they couldn't vote because of that. I'm extending the voting period one day as such to allow those who wish the participate the time to do so. The new deadline will be Monday 5/19 at midnight, or midnight tonight if you prefer. I'll send out another round of PMs to all GMs yet to vote to alert them of the change.

So we can expect to have the results tommorow morning? :) :handclap:

seventieslord
05-20-2008, 12:49 AM
Possibly right away. FissionFire just told me before I voted, that I was the final vote and implied that they were all tallied and just waiting for my votes. So results might be up within 15 minutes!

Leaf Lander
05-20-2008, 01:19 AM
Possibly right away. FissionFire just told me before I voted, that I was the final vote and implied that they were all tallied and just waiting for my votes. So results might be up within 15 minutes!

shall we all stay up for the results

seventieslord
05-20-2008, 01:22 AM
I wish I could....