ATD #9 Jim Robson Quarterfinal: #4 Winnipeg Jets vs. #5 Regina Pats

FissionFire
05-20-2008, 12:46 AM
The Winnipeg Jets
Coach: Glen Sather
Captain: #5 Denis Potvin
Assistant Captain #1 (Home): #19 Joe Sakic
Assistant Captain #2 (Home): #25 Doug Jarvis
Assistant Captain #3 (Away): #9 Roy Conacher
Assistant Captain #4 (Away): #3 Marcel Pronovost

#9 Roy Conacher (A) - #19 Joe Sakic (A) - #21 Tim Kerr
#8 Alexander Ovechkin - #22 Buddy O'Connor - #10 Owen Nolan
#11 Jean-Paul Parise - #25 Doug Jarvis (A) - #14 Claude Provost
#12 Paul Henderson - #39 Doug Weight - #88 Ken Randall
Scratches: C, #32 Tom Lysiak, RW, #25 Willi Plett

#3 Marcel Pronovost (A) - #5 Denis Potvin (C)
#4 William "Flash" Hollett - #34 Jamie Macoun
#6 Calle Johansson - #8 Clarence "Taffy" Abel
Scratches: D, #7 Gennady Tsygankov

#2 Jiri Holecek
#35 Andy Moog

PP Unit 1: Conacher - O'Connor - Kerr - Sakic - Potvin
PP Unit 2: Ovechkin - Weight - Nolan - Hollett - Pronovost
PK Unit 1: Parise - Jarvis - Potvin - Macoun
PK Unit 2: Henderson - Provost - Pronovost - Abel



The Regina Pats
coach: Bob Johnson

Alexander Yakushev - Gilbert Perreault - Lanny McDonald (A)
Vladimir Krutov - Vincent Lecavalier - Pat Verbeek
Kirk Muller (A) - Metro Prystai - Marian Hossa
Dan Maloney - Ken Linseman - Pie McKenzie
Billy Gilmour, Peter McNab

Serge Savard (C) - Vladimir Konstantinov
Adam Foote - Steve Duchesne
Bob Goldham - Graham Drinkwater
Mattias Ohlund

Jacques Plante
John Ross Roach

PP#1
???

PP#2
???

PK#1
???

PK#2
???

seventieslord
05-20-2008, 12:50 AM
Woohoo!!!

I'm not last!

I have to go to bed right now.... will be back tomorrow to post rosters and PP/PK units.

JannikAtTheDisco
05-20-2008, 11:19 AM
wooo go Jets!

vancityluongo
05-20-2008, 05:41 PM
Whoa. 4th eh? That's not bad considering how many solid teams are in this division, although this means that I won't get a easy matchup.

I'll post more thoughts later, but this is going to be a helluva series 70's, and best of luck to ya.

vancityluongo
05-20-2008, 05:45 PM
Also, could I get some feedback from someone on my PP units? I really want to have Sakic on the point, because I think that would really give the PP an extra offensive element to have that sniper wrist shot back there, but that makes me have to put Doug Weight in there somewhere, which I don't know if I want to do...

FissionFire
05-20-2008, 07:21 PM
You could always double-shift Sakic for the entire PP and just rest him for a minute or two once it ends.

JannikAtTheDisco
05-20-2008, 07:45 PM
Hey VCL, lets put Ovechkin on the right point for one or both of the units? He has a wicked shot and plays there with the caps, how he gets a lot of his goals.

vancityluongo
05-20-2008, 07:58 PM
You could always double-shift Sakic for the entire PP and just rest him for a minute or two once it ends.

Hey VCL, lets put Ovechkin on the right point for one or both of the units? He has a wicked shot and plays there with the caps, how he gets a lot of his goals.

Both good suggestions. Right now, I think lets go with these units:

Conacher-Sakic-Nolan-Potvin-Johansson
Ovechkin-O'Connor-Kerr-Hollett-Pronovost

Ovechkin and Sakic can play the point when needed, both can switch with Pronovost and Johansson when neccasary.

seventieslord
05-21-2008, 10:48 PM
First, my PP and PK units:

PP1:
Yakushev-Perreault-McDonald
Savard-Duchesne

PP2:
Krutov-LeCavalier-Verbeek
Konstantinov-Hossa

PK1:
Prystai-Muller
Goldham-Foote

PK2:
Hossa-Linseman
Savard-Konstantinov

vancityluongo
05-21-2008, 11:23 PM
Offense:

I like the top lines of both teams. I've stated a few times that I had Gilbert Perreault targeted since before the draft, but when Sakic fell to me, that plan changed. So obviously, I feel that Sakic is better then Perreault. I like Lanny McDonald, and I'll admit that Tim Kerr is a bit of a poor man's version if that's the way you want to phrase it. Roy Conacher however, is IMO a generally underrated player, and alongside Kerr and Burnaby Joe, completes IMO, a very strong top line, which as a unit, IMO, has an advantage over Regina's top line. I think physicality has to be a question mark for the Pats, especially against two physical guys in Conacher and Kerr, although Lanny wasn't bad.

Second lines are interesting. I like the mix of the second line, and while they won't score nearly as much as Regina's, I think for the role that they're in, they'll be okay. Regina has an advantage I'll admit here. Lecavalier is basically like Ovechkin if you want to look at things that way. Just that Vinny has a cup, and a few more years experience. Ovechkin's been more dominating in his limited number of years however. Don't know if I'd put Verbeek on the second line myself, but I think it probably will work for you. Similarly to my second line, I think you have guys that go well with each other. I've already shared my thoughts on my second line, but I'll say it again here: I really, really like the mix we have. Ovechkin is the talent; the goals, the speed, the flash. O'Connor is the speedy playmaking center. Nolan is the size and the grit. He'll open up some room for the smaller O'Connor and the not-massive Ovechkin. I haven't made this reference yet I don't think, but when building this line, my initial idea was to make a weakened ATD version of the WCE from the Canucks early 2000's.

Scoring from the bottom lines is a tough one IMO. You have guys like Hossa, Maloney, McNab, all capable of scoring some goals. I have guys like Henderson (he could score, I'm not just talking '72 either) Weight (playmaker, but meh, he's offensively capable), Randall, Plett, and Lysiak. I'm biased, so I obviously think I have this category, but either way I think it's at least close.

Offense from the backend will be interesting. Savard could turn on the offense if he wanted. Duchesne is offense-only. Graham Drinkwater had some ability to score goals and carry the puck. On the flip side however, Potvin, Pronovost, Johansson and Hollett are no slouches. Hollett was one of the best offensive defensemen of his time. Johansson was a super underrated guy all round, but espcially offensively. This guy had some skill. Not much needs to be said about Potvin, and while Pronovost was known as a defensive/two-way defensemen, he also had offensive abilities that were sometimes overlooked due to his stellar defensive play. I give Winnipeg the advantage here.

Winner: I like our top line, Regina has the advantage on the second line. The bottom forwards are close, while I like our defense better. I'm gonna give this one to us, although it's probably pretty close.

I'll do the rest tommorow.

seventieslord
05-21-2008, 11:41 PM
I'm having so much fun reading the other playoff threads but now it is time to participate in my own. Here, briefly, is why I will win the series:

1) Goaltending. Plante is a top-3 goalie, and in the opinion of the highest number of ATD GM's, the best goalie. He has no weakness to his game in the regular season or playoffs. His collection of hardware is rivaled by few. He is a Hart winner and owner of a semi-official Conn Smythe trophy. His GAA goes down 10% in the playoffs while his likelihood of winning a game goes up 26%. Likewise, his shutouts per game go up 28% in the playoffs. Simply put, the man is money. Holecek is a starter in the top half of the goalies selected, and we have to attempt to picture him in this type of setting. To imagine him beating Plante in a head to head matchup requires a lot of imagination.

2) We are even at 41 cups apiece (by my count) so to say one team is loaded with winners or losers would be too easy. Looking strictly at players with a history of stepping up their game in the Playoffs, on your roster I see Joe Sakic and Denis Potvin. A case could also be made for Nine Cups Provost. On Regina's roster, you're looking at a starting goalie whose playoff excellence has already been demonstrated, a backup whose GAA gets 26% better in the playoffs, plus the cerebral Serge Savard, winner of the 1969 Conn Smythe trophy. Up front, Perreault was always a major playoff performer, although admittedly not to Sakic's level. McKenzie and Linseman also have impeccable playoff records, raising their games to new offensive heights and needling the opposition to the point of madness.

On the blueline, I call it even. You have a top-5 guy in Potvin, but I have the next best in Savard, who isn't that far behind. Your first pairing is beyond superb. IMO, it contains two #1 defensemen. Our second pairings are very similar. In the same way that Hollett is superior to Duchesne, Macoun is just a poor man's Foote. On our 3rd pairings, Abel and Goldham are similar but I'll take a 4-time cup winning captain over Calle Johansson.

Look at our top two RW's. Very similar. It could be said that you got the guys with higher peaks and I took the guys with better longevity. Tough to say who has the edge.

I could go on about how Prystai's shadowing was instrumental in Detroit's cup wins, but then you've got Provost. I could tell you how I have a great balanced 2nd pair on D with Foote and Duchesne, but Macoun and Hollett offset that. And so on.

I'm going to try to matchup Prystai's line against Sakic's. I imagine you will try to do the same thing to me. Both lines have a puck wizard, a difficult to contain large body, and another scorer on the other wing (Conacher is more talented, McDonald more robust)

I'm not going to go cutting up your roster, because I like it. I think it is a lot like mine. (aside from our 4th lines, which are contructed entirely differently) But Regina has superior goaltending and some more impressive playoff resumes. You gotta go with The Pats.

Hockey Outsider
05-22-2008, 04:40 PM
Why Winnipeg will win

- Powerplay. Kerr is one of the most underrated powerplay forwards ever. Once he plants himself in the goal crease, it's nearly impossible to move him without taking a penalty. He lead the NHL in PP goals three years in a row (second only to Lemieux one more year). Add in the Sakic's wrist shot, Potvin's point shot and Conacher's five times finishing 1st or 2nd in goals, and you one of the most dangerous powerplay units in the draft. If Regina takes too many penalties, they will pay for it.

- Duchesne. The Pats have a lot of skill and speed upfront but Duchesne is easily the best offensive defenseman on the team. He's really a #4 or #5 defenseman in this draft, but if he gets the ice time he deserves, the Pats will have a weak transition offense and lose a lot of their scoring potential. But if Regina plays him too much, his fairly frequent defensive errors will put the team at risk.


Why Regina will win

- Plante. He's my choice as the greatest goalie ever, and his level of play improves in the playoffs. Holocek is just outside my top ten, so Regina has a moderate advantage in net.

- Yakushev. The Big Yak is one of the most underrated Russians ever. He was probably the best Soviet in the 1972 Summit Series and did everything he could to help his team win (including scoring four goals over the last two games). He was large and strong, but stayed out of the box (his strength should allow him to stand up to Winnipeg's tough defense while his discipline will help ensure that the deadly Jets powerplay doesn't get too many chances).

God Bless Canada
05-22-2008, 04:58 PM
Another very, very tough series to call. A deserving GM will win a series for the first time. Will it be 70s, or will it be the ATD's kid brother, VCL, and his partner, who was quiet throughout, and changed his name partway through the draft, to the attention of noone?

Right from the start, you had the sense that VCL might be on to something. Okay, we thought he was on something when he went with Holocek ahead of Bathgate (xxxx-Sakic-Bathgate? Ouch), but you knew this was going to be his best entry yet. Much like LL, VCL avoided the big uh oh that we've usually seen from him in the past.

Two things stand out about VCL's team. His third line is likely the best defensive line in the draft, and one of the best all-round lines. This is great. And Provost and Parise can score, too. The Perreault line is going to be in a lot of trouble. Especially in Winnipeg, where VCL has the last change. That Lecavalier line will suddenly be very, very important to Regina's success.

The other thing that stands out is that top pairing for Winnipeg. It's one of the best in the draft. They don't have a weakness. They can beat you any way you want. And they can log big minutes, too.

Regina has an edge in net. I think Plante's the best ever. I'm not the only one. But the gap from Plante to Holocek isn't that big. Not big enough that you can say Plante is going to be the difference in this series.

When in a series like this, it often comes down to coaching. Now for the bad news: not much to choose between Johnson and Sather. They were very close on my list. Both excellent offensive minds who let their guys take chances offensively. Don't know if it really suits either team (Sather might be a slightly better fit), but they're both really good coaches.

So I guess I'll let VCL and 70s war of words decide it.

Memo to VCL: Want to beat the Pats? Turn off the ice plant before the game. The Estevan Bruins used to do it all the time at the great Estevan Civic Auditorium when facing the fleet-footed Pats in the 60s. The Pats weren't so fast any more.

From the intangibles file: it's a Winnipeg vs. Regina battle. Gotta love that rivalry. VCL is hoping Winnipeg has better success this time than the last time a Winnipeg team played a Regina-based team in a big playoff match-up...

vancityluongo
05-22-2008, 07:24 PM
Defense: Checking lines: Advantage Winnipeg. Parise-Jarvis-Provost is the best checking line the draft. Not much more to say. Three of the best defensive/two-way players ever on a line? What else can you say. Doug Jarvis goes way too far after other defensive specialist ie. Carbonneau/Gainey...hell even Provost. I'm also not a big fan of Hossa on a shutdown line. Not a huge fan of his defensive game at a ATD level, especially against our top line.

Top pairing: Advantage Winnipeg. ;) I'm just selling my team here.

Top-6 defensemen: Actually, I think it's pretty close. I like our top pairing better, and while I had a lot of confidence in our bottom pairing for the longest time, I'm not so sure they were much better then Drinkwater, who I really like, and Bob Goldham. Meh, I still give the advantage to Winnipeg, but only because of Johansson, who I still think was really underrated when he played. I agree with what you said about the following: second pairings, both of us have a offensive guy, and a defensive guy. Hollett had a ton of skill, he just made a bunch of mistakes because of his high risk style of play. I have Jamie Macoun, probably a guy who should be on a third pairing, covering for him. Do I think he can do it? Yeah. But do I think he'll be able to fully cover Hollett's errors? I have some doubts. Adam Foote is a rock. Team him up with Konstantinov or Savard, and you have a helluva shutdown pairing. Team him up with Duchesne, and you have a frustrated guy trying to cover up for a guy who'll make mistakes in every game. Adam Foote is one of few who could probably successfully cover up for Duchesne. Macoun couldn't, I know that. I say tie between the second pairings. IMO.

7th/8th defensemen: Mattias Ohlund vs Gennady Tsygankov? Meh. I don't think any of us really know enough about Tsygankov to really decide that.

Overall defensemen: I give it to Winnipeg, although I think it's probably a bigger advantage then our advantage offensively.

Team defense: I love our team defense. I think I have the right combination of team defence, and defensive skill. Speed, grit, energy, all you could want from players that you have in a defensive role. I think this might be the biggest problem with Regina's defensive game. There doesn't really seem to be a system. There's some good defensive players, but there's something missing for me. Maybe it's because Badger Bob was an offensive coach (like Sather I guess). I think you may not neccasarily have the wrong player personnal, just the wrong combination of lines and a system. I think what I mean is that with Potvon and Pronovost, they're skilled enough to take risks offensively and cover up defensively, while if the shutdown line is on the, it's clear why Slats has them out there; to shutdown the opponent's top line, in this case the Perreault line. I don't know if what I'm trying to get to is clear here, so if needed I'll try and explain better later.


Goaltending:

Not much to argue here. It's obvious. Jacques Plante is a top-3, if not the best goalie ever. Jiri Holecek is around number-10. While I have to agree with GBC that the difference between them won't ultimately decide the series, sadly it has to be a factor, and it's advantage Regina. Although I hope nobody thinks it's by a huge margin, because I really don't think it's massive... Again, trying to be cleverly convincing... ;-)

Wait, no I can argue that Andy Moog is better then Roach...although hopefully I won't have to argue for Moog...


Coaching: Probably the most interesting thing about this series. Two legendary coaches. Yet, somehow, that doesn't mean much, because in a list of the best coaches ever, they're likely very, very close to each other. Both great offensively. Both have fairly skilled offensive teams. Both aren't the greatest fit with their teams; I think Regina could have used a defensive minded coach to get a system going, (having that top line along with Duchesne guarentees you'll be at least potent offensively) while I decided to take Slats because he was the BCA at the time, but maybe I could've drafted an defensive assistant to maximize my assets.


Miscellaneous:

-We have home ice. ;) In Winnipeg, you won't neccasarily be able to match lines and get Prystai against Sakic.

But seriously, the leadership and playoff stepping up thing you brought up 70's? Joe Sakic and Denis Potvin are two of the greatest playoff performers ever, and you also mentioned Provost. How about Jarvis, who was crucial in Montreal's four straight cup wins in the late 70's. And speaking of the 70's, 70's, how about '72? Paul Henderson. Yeah, it wasn't the NHL playoffs, but he stepped up, big time (to quote Pierre MacGuire, he was a MONSTER ;)). How about Pronovost. He was a pretty good postseason performer too. Yeah, you have Plante and Savard. Meh. :D

vancityluongo
05-22-2008, 07:36 PM
Thanks for the comments GBC and HO. Appreciate it. I'll just reply to a couple things:

Why Regina will win

- Plante. He's my choice as the greatest goalie ever, and his level of play improves in the playoffs. Holocek is just outside my top ten, so Regina has a moderate advantage in net.

- Yakushev. The Big Yak is one of the most underrated Russians ever. He was probably the best Soviet in the 1972 Summit Series and did everything he could to help his team win (including scoring four goals over the last two games). He was large and strong, but stayed out of the box (his strength should allow him to stand up to Winnipeg's tough defense while his discipline will help ensure that the deadly Jets powerplay doesn't get too many chances).

1) Bolded the important part. Moderate advantage. Plante was good, but he wasn't that good. ;) Okay, well yes he was really good, but it isn't a huge huge advantage for Regina, anyway you spin it.

2) Yakushev vs Kerr/Nolan/Provost/Randall. 4 tough, smart players. Whatever. :D

Right from the start, you had the sense that VCL might be on to something. Okay, we thought he was on something when he went with Holocek ahead of Bathgate (xxxx-Sakic-Bathgate? Ouch), but you knew this was going to be his best entry yet.

:amazed: I never actually even thought about that. Gah, oh well, I needed a goalie, and it's paying off. If I had waited, I'd be going in with someone like Belfour (with all due respect) against Jacques Plante. Not that big an advantage the way things stand, but that would've been a little more of a mismatch in the nets.

Memo to VCL: Want to beat the Pats? Turn off the ice plant before the game. The Estevan Bruins used to do it all the time at the great Estevan Civic Auditorium when facing the fleet-footed Pats in the 60s. The Pats weren't so fast any more.

From the intangibles file: it's a Winnipeg vs. Regina battle. Gotta love that rivalry. VCL is hoping Winnipeg has better success this time than the last time a Winnipeg team played a Regina-based team in a big playoff match-up...

Related to the first part of this quote, I remember reading this story a few years ago (fictional), about this team who turned up the heat in their teams own end, so that the other team would lose speed when attacking. At the intermission, when the teams would switch ends, they would do the same thing to the other side, and fix the ice on the melted side. Watch out Regina... :sarcasm:

It's a good old Prairie battle, and barring something happening like it did for the Bombers, I think Winnipeg will come out on top in this series. :)

seventieslord
05-22-2008, 09:51 PM
Defense: Checking lines: Advantage Winnipeg. Parise-Jarvis-Provost is the best checking line the draft. Not much more to say. Three of the best defensive/two-way players ever on a line? What else can you say. Doug Jarvis goes way too far after other defensive specialist ie. Carbonneau/Gainey...hell even Provost. I'm also not a big fan of Hossa on a shutdown line. Not a huge fan of his defensive game at a ATD level, especially against our top line.

Top pairing: Advantage Winnipeg. ;) I'm just selling my team here.


Yeah, you do have an excellent checking line. Whatever advantage yours has defensively, though, mine has offensively. Prystai was excellent defensively but at the same time, placed in the top-10 in points twice. Muller was never in the top-10 but was sometimes close, was over a point per game three times, and was very good defensively. Hossa isn't a shutdown player, but he's very responsible and has three top-6 finishes in goals, during a time when the NHL is truly a global league. My third line has the definite ability to convert turnovers into goals, whereas yours has the ability to defend and not much else (I'm aware Provost had a couple good offensive seasons)

Top-6 defensemen: Actually, I think it's pretty close. I like our top pairing better, and while I had a lot of confidence in our bottom pairing for the longest time, I'm not so sure they were much better then Drinkwater, who I really like, and Bob Goldham. Meh, I still give the advantage to Winnipeg, but only because of Johansson, who I still think was really underrated when he played. I agree with what you said about the following: second pairings, both of us have a offensive guy, and a defensive guy. Hollett had a ton of skill, he just made a bunch of mistakes because of his high risk style of play. I have Jamie Macoun, probably a guy who should be on a third pairing, covering for him. Do I think he can do it? Yeah. But do I think he'll be able to fully cover Hollett's errors? I have some doubts. Adam Foote is a rock. Team him up with Konstantinov or Savard, and you have a helluva shutdown pairing. Team him up with Duchesne, and you have a frustrated guy trying to cover up for a guy who'll make mistakes in every game. Adam Foote is one of few who could probably successfully cover up for Duchesne. Macoun couldn't, I know that. I say tie between the second pairings. IMO.

We're pretty much in agreement here, except that I am not enamored with Johansson in any way. He was just an above-average defenseman for a long time. You're right, Foote will successfully cover for Duchesne. On your 2nd pairing, your stay at home guy doesn't compare to mine, and my offense-only guy doesn't compare to yours.

7th/8th defensemen: Mattias Ohlund vs Gennady Tsygankov? Meh. I don't think any of us really know enough about Tsygankov to really decide that.
Especially considering he was Fetisov's partner for a while. A lot of teams can get away with pairing an average-to-good defenseman with their #1 so as not to put all their eggs in one basket. Not sure what to make of Tsygankov either. Regardless, these guys won't make or break the series.

Overall defensemen: I give it to Winnipeg, although I think it's probably a bigger advantage then our advantage offensively.

With equal second pairings, my third pairing's excellence wipes out any advantage your first pairing has over mine.

Team defense: I love our team defense. I think I have the right combination of team defence, and defensive skill. Speed, grit, energy, all you could want from players that you have in a defensive role.

You say that as though there is no speed, grit, or energy in my bottom-6. Every player can provide at least two of the three. I'll be fine in those areas. Not to mention most of them are talented enough to put up points... even at this level.

I think this might be the biggest problem with Regina's defensive game. There doesn't really seem to be a system. There's some good defensive players, but there's something missing for me. Maybe it's because Badger Bob was an offensive coach (like Sather I guess). I think you may not neccasarily have the wrong player personnal, just the wrong combination of lines and a system. I think what I mean is that with Potvon and Pronovost, they're skilled enough to take risks offensively and cover up defensively, while if the shutdown line is on the, it's clear why Slats has them out there; to shutdown the opponent's top line, in this case the Perreault line. I don't know if what I'm trying to get to is clear here, so if needed I'll try and explain better later.

:huh: I think you might have to.

Goaltending:

Not much to argue here. It's obvious. Jacques Plante is a top-3, if not the best goalie ever. Jiri Holecek is around number-10. While I have to agree with GBC that the difference between them won't ultimately decide the series, sadly it has to be a factor, and it's advantage Regina. Although I hope nobody thinks it's by a huge margin, because I really don't think it's massive... Again, trying to be cleverly convincing... ;-)

Nope, the advantage is huge, trust me :D

Wait, no I can argue that Andy Moog is better then Roach...although hopefully I won't have to argue for Moog...

I'm not sure of that.

Coaching: Probably the most interesting thing about this series. Two legendary coaches. Yet, somehow, that doesn't mean much, because in a list of the best coaches ever, they're likely very, very close to each other. Both great offensively. Both have fairly skilled offensive teams. Both aren't the greatest fit with their teams; I think Regina could have used a defensive minded coach to get a system going, (having that top line along with Duchesne guarentees you'll be at least potent offensively) while I decided to take Slats because he was the BCA at the time, but maybe I could've drafted an defensive assistant to maximize my assets.

Call coaching a wash if you like, but don't try to spin it in your favour. It doesn't just easily boil down to "offensive coach = good, defensive coach = bad". You say I have a lot of offensive players - doesn't it make more sense, then, that I have an offensive coach?

Miscellaneous:

-We have home ice. ;) In Winnipeg, you won't neccasarily be able to match lines and get Prystai against Sakic.

That's just in 4 of 7 games! :D Besides, it's not the end of the world if the energy line goes up against them. Kerr could be made to lose his temper against a ***** like McKenzie or Linseman. (So could Nolan too, for that matter) And if either of my scoring lines go up against the Sakic line for a few shifts, so be it. Both will score against eachother fairly often, I'd reckon, since no one has mindblowing defensive skills in either of our top-6. Yes, Prystai on Sakic would be my ideal matchup but it won't be critical to winning.

But seriously, the leadership and playoff stepping up thing you brought up 70's? Joe Sakic and Denis Potvin are two of the greatest playoff performers ever, and you also mentioned Provost. How about Jarvis, who was crucial in Montreal's four straight cup wins in the late 70's. And speaking of the 70's, 70's, how about '72? Paul Henderson. Yeah, it wasn't the NHL playoffs, but he stepped up, big time (to quote Pierre MacGuire, he was a MONSTER ;)). How about Pronovost. He was a pretty good postseason performer too. Yeah, you have Plante and Savard. Meh. :D

Agree, Sakic and Potvin are money. But so are the "meh" brothers, Plante and Savard :biglaugh: Jarvis and Pronovost won a bunch of cups, but that doesn't mean they regularly stepped it up. Great players, I love them both. But if you can say they were clutch, then I could say Goldham and Drinkwater were also clutch.

OK, so now that we agree that that all evens out, look at who else on my roster has a history of big playoffs - Perreault, McKenzie, Linseman, Prystai (from a shutdown perspective, that is) Henderson stepped it up in '72, and if that's worth something, then so is the fact that Le Gros Yak outscored him, although admittedly not with three straight game winners. Henderson, otherwise, has 12 goals in 60 pro playoff games, and Yak has 145 in 221 international games , which is the closest thing to the playoffs he's had the opportunity to play in. Now you could say "well, that's why he's on your first line and Henderson is on my fourth"... and that would be fair!

I've got more clutch factor. You know it! :yo:

pitseleh
05-22-2008, 10:04 PM
This series intrigues me, so I want to point out two things I've noticed about it that I see having a major impact:

- For Winnipeg, they have a tremendous shut-down line that will make life difficult for Yakushev-Perreault-McDonald, but what defensive pairing will play with them? If you're going to give Pronovost-Potvin primary defensive duty, it really handicaps your team in other areas with them eating up so many minutes playing in a shutdown role without much offensive support from the forwards. On the other hand, I don't see either of Winnipeg's defensive pairs being strong enough defensively to contain that line even with a strong checking line in front of them, so they may be forced to use their top pairing in that fashion.

- For Regina, assuming that Winnipeg does use their top defensive pairing against the Perreault line, do they have the firepower throughout the rest of the lineup to outgun Winnipeg? Sakic and co. will likely outscore Perreault's line given the quality of Winnipeg's checking unit, so do they have the offense to make up for that advantage?

Spitfire11
05-22-2008, 10:28 PM
Ha, nice discussion guys. I gave the division to Winnipeg with Regina just a few spots back, but in a playoff match-up this is very close. I think over a 7-game series Plante gives a significant advantage to Regina. Winnipeg has the better forwards and although they have the best defenseman in the series by a significant margin, overall I actually like Regina's defense just a tad more. The pairings are a little out of whack, imo this would look a lot better:
Savard - Goldham
Konstantinov - Foote
Duchesne - Drinkwater
with the elite shutdown pairing of Savard - Goldham being matched up against Winnipeg's 1st line which will do most of the damage. According to many former players Goldham belongs in the HOF, and I think he's wasted on a 3rd pairing he should at least be swapped with Foote. Bob Johnson is one of my favourites and you took him right before I was going to, but I think Regina would have been better off with a coach that had more emphasis on defense, not that big a deal though. It's a very close series and I think it's safe to say it'll go to 7.

seventieslord
05-22-2008, 11:20 PM
Your comments are appreciated and duly noted, both of you. A few notes:

1) I've thought abut shuffling my D, but I just can't do it. Konstantinov is good enough to play on a top pairing, and though Goldham also is, he serves as a very solid partner for the puck-rushing Drinkwater. The Tall Drink Of Water was noted as having a well-rounded game, but the most prominent part of his game appears to be his puck rushing, so I can't see Duchesne being an effective partner for him. I got Foote as a "pure D" guy so I could cheap out on a "pure O" guy and I'm pretty intent on keeping them together. However, with your help, I have convinced myself of one thing: Foote and Duchesne should be my third pairing. Then, the possibly deserving hall of famer Goldham isn't wasted, and Drinkwater, by accounts, should be as good as Duchesne at rushing the puck. (The more I think about it, the more I am sure I stole this guy. I saw him slip round after round and finally had to grab him. He's a hall of famer who was probably the best all-around player on a team that won four straight cups - I stand corrected, though. He was not their captain... sorry about that, I was sure he was)

So, consider my defense to be as follows:

Savard Konstantinov
Goldham Drinkwater
Foote Duchesne

2) I think the worst kept secret on earth is that this series will go to 7 games. I have looked at the other matchups, and I just don't see any that are as hard to call.

3) Nice hidden text, VCL :biglaugh:

vancityluongo
05-23-2008, 12:01 AM
Yeah, you do have an excellent checking line. Whatever advantage yours has defensively, though, mine has offensively. Prystai was excellent defensively but at the same time, placed in the top-10 in points twice. Muller was never in the top-10 but was sometimes close, was over a point per game three times, and was very good defensively. Hossa isn't a shutdown player, but he's very responsible and has three top-6 finishes in goals, during a time when the NHL is truly a global league. My third line has the definite ability to convert turnovers into goals, whereas yours has the ability to defend and not much else (I'm aware Provost had a couple good offensive seasons)

Provost had a couple good offensive seasons? Provost was consistently a 40 point plus player, all while shutting down some of the big names of those days. I think he has the ability to do more then defend. How about J-P Parise's 75 points in 72-73. Yes, oooh, 75 points. It may not seem like a ton, but it's pretty damn good for a guy who doesn't have the ability to do much other then defend. Just because I haven't been selling this trio as a two-way line (which they technically aren't, they're better suited to a shutdown game then a two-way game, at least that's how I see it) doesn't mean thy're offensively inept.

Hossa is playing in a time when the NHL is a truely global league? Ooooh. I don't think he'd be any better back when Provost played if that's what you're getting at. And yeah, Prystai was two-way. Cool. Just try and shutdown Sakic and score at the same time. :D :laugh: (I rock at trash talking.)



We're pretty much in agreement here, except that I am not enamored with Johansson in any way. He was just an above-average defenseman for a long time. You're right, Foote will successfully cover for Duchesne. On your 2nd pairing, your stay at home guy doesn't compare to mine, and my offense-only guy doesn't compare to yours.

Don't want to get into this too much more, since we've come to a mutual agreement, but Johansson was not a slouch. I'll leave it at that I guess.

Especially considering he was Fetisov's partner for a while. A lot of teams can get away with pairing an average-to-good defenseman with their #1 so as not to put all their eggs in one basket. Not sure what to make of Tsygankov either. Regardless, these guys won't make or break the series.

Nope, but it's still another advantage for Winnipeg. :laugh: :D

With equal second pairings, my third pairing's excellence wipes out any advantage your first pairing has over mine.

Wait, what? Your third pairings excellence? Where was Graham Drinkwater's excellence last draft? I like Bob Goldham and Graham Drinkwater, and you may not like Calle Johansson, and Taffy Abel may not be a top-4 defensemen. But the difference between Serge Savard and Denis Potvin, and Vlad Konstantinov and Marcel Pronovost is not wiped out by the advantage, if there is one, that Drinkwater and Goldham have over Abel and Johansson. I just don't see it.

You say that as though there is no speed, grit, or energy in my bottom-6. Every player can provide at least two of the three. I'll be fine in those areas. Not to mention most of them are talented enough to put up points... even at this level.

That was worded badly on my part I think. I think I have the better team, but I'm not unreasonable! I really like your team. :)

:huh: I think you might have to.

Let's try and put it this way. You have offensive talent, with not many pure defensive players. Wouldn't it be better to have a defensive coach to help get the best defensive ability out of your guys? They're naturally gifted offensively, and have been for their whole careers. So when given the green light to score, they know how to. But when put under pressure from the likes of my top line, wouldn't it help to have a coach who implements a system that helps them in those scenarios? Hope that makes more sense.

I'm not sure of that.

Pfft. :D

Call coaching a wash if you like, but don't try to spin it in your favour. It doesn't just easily boil down to "offensive coach = good, defensive coach = bad". You say I have a lot of offensive players - doesn't it make more sense, then, that I have an offensive coach?

Explained (better) above. :)

That's just in 4 of 7 games! :D Besides, it's not the end of the world if the energy line goes up against them. Kerr could be made to lose his temper against a ***** like McKenzie or Linseman. (So could Nolan too, for that matter) And if either of my scoring lines go up against the Sakic line for a few shifts, so be it. Both will score against eachother fairly often, I'd reckon, since no one has mindblowing defensive skills in either of our top-6. Yes, Prystai on Sakic would be my ideal matchup but it won't be critical to winning.

Gilbert Perreault can be ticked off just as easy. And actually, IMO, Prystai on Sakic is more critical to you then I think your making it to be, but I'd be open to hear why you don't think you need Prystai to stop Sakic.


Agree, Sakic and Potvin are money. But so are the "meh" brothers, Plante and Savard :biglaugh: Jarvis and Pronovost won a bunch of cups, but that doesn't mean they regularly stepped it up. Great players, I love them both. But if you can say they were clutch, then I could say Goldham and Drinkwater were also clutch.

What has Drinkwater done that makes him clutch? Actually asking, since I didn't find any argument when I had him last draft. And yes, Jarvis and Pronovost proved that they can step it up in the playoffs; they were HUGE reasons in the cup wins. I'll try and find actual proof and stuff tommorow.

OK, so now that we agree that that all evens out, look at who else on my roster has a history of big playoffs - Perreault, McKenzie, Linseman, Prystai (from a shutdown perspective, that is) Henderson stepped it up in '72, and if that's worth something, then so is the fact that Le Gros Yak outscored him, although admittedly not with three straight game winners. Henderson, otherwise, has 12 goals in 60 pro playoff games, and Yak has 145 in 221 international games , which is the closest thing to the playoffs he's had the opportunity to play in. Now you could say "well, that's why he's on your first line and Henderson is on my fourth"... and that would be fair!

I've got more clutch factor. You know it! :yo:

I'm not giving up on this one. I'm just not prepared right now to back up any statements I make. So I'll leave this tommorow!

Also, I'll address you guys Spit and pits tommorow, thanks for commenting.

Nalyd Psycho
05-23-2008, 06:49 AM
Another match-up where secondary scoring is needed but isn't there. Regina's 1st pairing and Winnipeg's checking line, both are just crazy good in their own end.

Don't have much to say, seem very equal. Might come down to who you think is a bigger game breaker, Potvin or Plante? Sometimes that 1st choice is everything...

vancityluongo
05-23-2008, 06:10 PM
Thanks to the guys who posted the follwing quotes.

This series intrigues me, so I want to point out two things I've noticed about it that I see having a major impact:

- For Winnipeg, they have a tremendous shut-down line that will make life difficult for Yakushev-Perreault-McDonald, but what defensive pairing will play with them? If you're going to give Pronovost-Potvin primary defensive duty, it really handicaps your team in other areas with them eating up so many minutes playing in a shutdown role without much offensive support from the forwards. On the other hand, I don't see either of Winnipeg's defensive pairs being strong enough defensively to contain that line even with a strong checking line in front of them, so they may be forced to use their top pairing in that fashion.

- For Regina, assuming that Winnipeg does use their top defensive pairing against the Perreault line, do they have the firepower throughout the rest of the lineup to outgun Winnipeg? Sakic and co. will likely outscore Perreault's line given the quality of Winnipeg's checking unit, so do they have the offense to make up for that advantage?

-I'm thinking of possibly changing up my pairings right now. Although, I really don't want Macoun to ditch Hollett, I think I might be better off switching him with Johansson; Abel-Macoun is a decent shutdown pairing, even though I know a lot of you guys aren't Taffy Abel fans. Johansson-Hollett may be a bit of a liability, but I can always switch things up again. I'd actually love any last minute suggestions or ideas. I'm also comfortable with double shifting the top two guys occasionally, and I also think the third pairing (I'm going to mention again; Johansson was underrated) as it stands along with the shutdown line can do the job needed.

-Plante will help Regina in that department. But I have my doubts about Lecavalier's line being able to make up for the difference that will in my mind no doubt be there.

Ha, nice discussion guys. I gave the division to Winnipeg with Regina just a few spots back, but in a playoff match-up this is very close. I think over a 7-game series Plante gives a significant advantage to Regina. Winnipeg has the better forwards and although they have the best defenseman in the series by a significant margin, overall I actually like Regina's defense just a tad more. The pairings are a little out of whack, imo this would look a lot better:
Savard - Goldham
Konstantinov - Foote
Duchesne - Drinkwater
with the elite shutdown pairing of Savard - Goldham being matched up against Winnipeg's 1st line which will do most of the damage. According to many former players Goldham belongs in the HOF, and I think he's wasted on a 3rd pairing he should at least be swapped with Foote. Bob Johnson is one of my favourites and you took him right before I was going to, but I think Regina would have been better off with a coach that had more emphasis on defense, not that big a deal though. It's a very close series and I think it's safe to say it'll go to 7.

I agree that Regina should've gotten a defensive coach as I pointed out earlier. I have to disagree that Plante gives Regina a significant advantage over Holecek.

Also, I don't really see Regina having a team that steps up a lot in the playoffs. I believe I had them higher then 5th in the regular season, but when I look through their lineup, while I see some big performers, I don't see many guys that constantly stepped up a few notches in the spring.

Another match-up where secondary scoring is needed but isn't there. Regina's 1st pairing and Winnipeg's checking line, both are just crazy good in their own end.

Don't have much to say, seem very equal. Might come down to who you think is a bigger game breaker, Potvin or Plante? Sometimes that 1st choice is everything...

I think you underestimate our secondary scoring. Flash Hollett will be a fairly big source of offense. Potvin's point shot on the PP will be deadly. I like our second line, and while it isn't the best in the draft by any means, I like it as a contributer to secondary scoring. Regina's first pairing is crazy good in it's own end? yeah, well so is Winnipeg's first pairing. :P

Gamebreakers huh? We were kinda talking about this before, but Nalyd you bring up Potvin vs Plante. I think in a close series like this, goaltenders play a bigger role then any other individual player. Regina has the goaltending advatage, right? Does that give them that much of an advantage. Nope. Because when your star defensemen is on his A-game, not only does he contribute more, but his defense partner, the forwards that he's playing with, and his goalie, just by being on the ice with him, are benefitted.

Let's look at things this way instead: if Potvin plays this series to his "full potential" (this is HFBoards, and I have no better way to phrase that) can he take over this series. Yeah, he showed he was capable of that with those Islander teams, and even at an ATD level, I'm confident he could again do that. How about Plante? Yup, he had what, 5 straight cup wins I believe, and was a massive part of that. That doesn't clear up much, because it's impossible to really compare players from two different positions and two different eras. So let's look at the next guys for each team: Gilbert Perreault and Serge Savard for Regina and Joe Sakic and Jiri Holecek for Winnipeg. Sakic>Perreault, Savard>Holecek, That doesn't help much either. But now we can compare each player with their positional rival, since we each have a forward, defensemen and goalie.

Joe Sakic to me, is a close to top-10 center, likely top-15. Gilbert Perreault I'd have just outside my top-20 or somewhere close to there. Not a massive difference, but meh.

Denis Potvin is the #5 defensemen ever. Orr, Harvey, Shore, Bourque, Potvin. The Big 5. Serge Savard, while a good number one in this draft, is outside that, maybe in the mid-to-late 20's.

Plante is number 1. Holecek is around 10.


Looking over this, it's probably a incredibly confusing method, and I think it's probably better served for determining the draft postion of a player, but based on this method, I have a very balanced group of top game breakers, while Regina is "top-heavy" with Plante being the star netminder, and then two not-so-superstar (at a ATD level) guys. Actually, I'm almost positive this makes no sense to anyone but me, but it took me a while to type it, so I'm just gonna leave it in case anyone does follow what I'm saying. :) :laugh:

vancityluongo
05-23-2008, 09:00 PM
Looks like there aren't going to be any more comments before the final voting is done.

Just want to wish Regina good luck, and may the better team win.

seventieslord
05-23-2008, 10:46 PM
Also, I don't really see Regina having a team that steps up a lot in the playoffs. I believe I had them higher then 5th in the regular season, but when I look through their lineup, while I see some big performers, I don't see many guys that constantly stepped up a few notches in the spring.

Perreault.
Linseman's playoff numbers are sick compared to his regular season numbers.
McKenzie had a couple of huge playoffs.
Prystai.
and then if you mention more multiple cup winners I could as well.


Gamebreakers huh? We were kinda talking about this before, but Nalyd you bring up Potvin vs Plante. I think in a close series like this, goaltenders play a bigger role then any other individual player. Regina has the goaltending advatage, right? Does that give them that much of an advantage. Nope. Because when your star defensemen is on his A-game, not only does he contribute more, but his defense partner, the forwards that he's playing with, and his goalie, just by being on the ice with him, are benefitted.

Then why do we rank Plante higher on an all-time list when doing the HOH voting? Ranking goalies next to forwards and defensemen is difficult, but in the end you have to think, "who helped their teams win more games, and more important games?" The answer is Plante, that is why we ranked him higher, that is why I took him before Potvin.

Let's look at things this way instead: if Potvin plays this series to his "full potential" (this is HFBoards, and I have no better way to phrase that) can he take over this series. Yeah, he showed he was capable of that with those Islander teams, and even at an ATD level, I'm confident he could again do that.

But in the ATD, he's the 5th best defenseman (in most people's opinions)... that means he's the Zubov/Phaneuf/Chara of the league. He's not Denis Potvin in this context. He was Denios Potvin when he played against a mostly ordinary players. Plante, however, is the #1 or #2 goalie here. That means he's the Brodeur/Luongo of the league. Holecek would be like the Tim Thomas or Chris Osgood of the league - in the middle of all the starters. Who's going to have more of an impact?


Serge Savard, while a good number one in this draft, is outside that, maybe in the mid-to-late 20's.

No. Closer to about 20th.

Plante is number 1. Holecek is around 10.

10th? Don't make me laugh! Here are 10 who are easily better than Holecek:

Plante
Roy
Hasek
Hall
Sawchuk
Brodeur
Dryden
Durnan
Tretiak
Benedict
Brimsek

and then, if you include playoffs, you have to consider guys who have a history of winning in the playoffs ahead of him too - and remember, this is the playoffs...

Broda
Smith
Bower
Parent
Fuhr

seventieslord
05-23-2008, 10:47 PM
My arguments may have been too late.

Than again, maybe I said enough already.

Good luck to you, this was easily my favourite series of the ones I've been in.

shawnmullin
05-23-2008, 11:03 PM
Good, respectful debate guys. Hope you both can feel good no matter the result.

seventieslord
05-23-2008, 11:16 PM
Hossa is playing in a time when the NHL is a truely global league? Ooooh. I don't think he'd be any better back when Provost played if that's what you're getting at. And yeah, Prystai was two-way. Cool. Just try and shutdown Sakic and score at the same time. :D :laugh: (I rock at trash talking.)

LOL @ the white text. very funny!

To explain what I meant here, NHL accomplishments such as placing in the top-10 or top-5 or whatever, mean more than the same in the 60's or 70's. We are now pretty certain that the very best players are all in one place. In the 60's or 70's, a guy who placed 8th in the NHL might have found himself outside of the top-10 entirely if Bobrov, Maltsev, Kharlamov, etc played in the NHL, just like today's European counterparts do. Get it?


Wait, what? Your third pairings excellence? Where was Graham Drinkwater's excellence last draft? I like Bob Goldham and Graham Drinkwater, and you may not like Calle Johansson, and Taffy Abel may not be a top-4 defensemen. But the difference between Serge Savard and Denis Potvin, and Vlad Konstantinov and Marcel Pronovost is not wiped out by the advantage, if there is one, that Drinkwater and Goldham have over Abel and Johansson. I just don't see it.

Honestly... I knew nothing of Drinkwater last draft. I'm sorry if I didn't give him any love.


Let's try and put it this way. You have offensive talent, with not many pure defensive players. Wouldn't it be better to have a defensive coach to help get the best defensive ability out of your guys? They're naturally gifted offensively, and have been for their whole careers. So when given the green light to score, they know how to. But when put under pressure from the likes of my top line, wouldn't it help to have a coach who implements a system that helps them in those scenarios? Hope that makes more sense.

My head is spinning.


Gilbert Perreault can be ticked off just as easy. And actually, IMO, Prystai on Sakic is more critical to you then I think your making it to be, but I'd be open to hear why you don't think you need Prystai to stop Sakic.

What? Perreault has 500 career PIMs. He's not going to swing his stick at anyone who needles him. He's not the same as Kerr or Nolan at all.

To answer the next part briefly, I don't think it would be the end of the world if I couldn't get Prystai out there vs. Sakic 1/3 of the time on the road. I would try to trade goals with either of the first two lines, or needle him with the 4th. None would be as effective as the Prystai line, but is that a series-winning edge? hardly.


What has Drinkwater done that makes him clutch? Actually asking, since I didn't find any argument when I had him last draft. And yes, Jarvis and Pronovost proved that they can step it up in the playoffs; they were HUGE reasons in the cup wins. I'll try and find actual proof and stuff tommorow.

That's my point though. I don't know of any anecdotes that show he was anything other than their best or second best player and played his usual game en route to the cup... just like guys like Goldham, Jarvis, and Pronovost!

seventieslord
05-23-2008, 11:16 PM
This has to be the closest series. It just has to be....

seventieslord
05-24-2008, 12:39 AM
Center
Gilbert Perreault
1191 512 814 1326 500
Vincent Lecavalier
710 273 329 602 507
Metro Prystai
674 151 179 330 231
Ken Linseman
860 256 551 807 1727
Peter McNab
954 363 450 813 179

over 3800 points over 1500 goals

Right Wingers
Lanny McDonald
1111 500 506 1006 899
Pat Verbeek
1424 522 541 1063 2905
Marian Hossa
701 299 349 648 395
Pie McKenzie
691 206 268 474 917
Billy Gilmour
56 49 0 49 174

over 3200 points over 1500 goals

Left Wingers
Alexandr Yakushev
789 484 500(maybe) 984 ?
Vladimir Krutov
768 467 414 891 406
Kirk Muller
1349 357 602 959 1223
Dan Maloney
737 192 259 451 1489

over 3200 points over 1500 goals


Defenceman
Serge Savard
1040 106 333 439 592
Vladimir Konstantinov
446 47 128 175 838
Bob Goldham
650 28 143 171 400
Graham Drinkwater
41 32 0 32 0
Steve Duchesne
1113 227 525 752 824
Adam Foote
998 65 219 284 1407
Mattias Ohlund
688 87 213 300 651

over 2200 points over 600 goals


over 3800 points over 1500 goals
over 3200 points over 1500 goals
over 3200 points over 1500 goals
over 2200 points over 600 goals

12,400 points 5100 goals

ur tema is a oneline team and featuers many miner leagers but mine ahs savard a bonecruiser who will hurt you

if u think u will win the fog reallyis thick around u tonite

somethings are and some things arenot but clear ly my tema is more dominance than urs

look at there stats

plus every palyer i have is 2way like perrualt kutrov and dushene and malony

the voters don tlike me and thats the olny reason u migh twin

seventieslord
05-24-2008, 03:19 PM
I thought I'd have a reply by now for sure! Doesn't anyone appreciate good parody? :(

vancityluongo
05-24-2008, 05:03 PM
Meh, all votes are in, so not much left to argue here. Regardless;

-Tim Thomas? Bahahahahahahahaahahahaha. With all due respect to him, nice indirect shot at Holecek. Average starter? How about try someone like Vesa Toskala or Marc-Andre Fleury. I don't mind the Chris Osgood comparison, because if you haven't noticed, his team is in teh finals, while Brodeur and Luongo are golfing. ;)

-I see what you did with the stats. :D

-Savard 20th? Don't agree, but okay, fine. Whose the 20th best defensemen in the league right now? Robyn Regehr maybe? Dan Boyle? Luongo/Boyle or Toskala/Phaneuf? Gotta remember that Luongo sucked this year when he had a ****ty defense. :laugh: I love invisible text.


Anyways, voting is over, and neither of us should be disappointed with the final result, we've both iced our best teams, and their both great teams.

seventieslord
05-24-2008, 06:00 PM
Meh, all votes are in, so not much left to argue here. Regardless;


Apparently we're going to argue a bit more anyways!

-Tim Thomas? Bahahahahahahahaahahahaha. With all due respect to him, nice indirect shot at Holecek. Average starter? How about try someone like Vesa Toskala or Marc-Andre Fleury. I don't mind the Chris Osgood comparison, because if you haven't noticed, his team is in the finals, while Brodeur and Luongo are golfing. ;)

Not a ahot at Holecek at all. I just showed you a list of goalies better than him, thus he is an average starter. Tim Thomas would be a suitable comparison. Toskala is closer to 8th today and Fleury, though polarizing, is somewhere between 7th and 12th. I can't be that generous. As for Osgood, he looks good right now, but I still think he's average. If I thought he was better than that, I would not have used him as an example! :D

-I see what you did with the stats. :D

;)

-Savard 20th? Don't agree, but okay, fine. Whose the 20th best defensemen in the league right now? Robyn Regehr maybe? Dan Boyle? Luongo/Boyle or Toskala/Phaneuf? Gotta remember that Luongo sucked this year when he had a ****ty defense. :laugh: I love invisible text.

Boyle or Regehr would be fair to say. So, Luongo/Regehr vs. Thomas/Phaneuf... I know what I'd take. Luongo was not really that bad this year despite missing the playoffs


Anyways, voting is over, and neither of us should be disappointed with the final result, we've both iced our best teams, and their both great teams.

Agreed. But I'm goign towin becuase i have 12,400 poitns onmy team ;)

Jungosi
05-25-2008, 02:25 PM
Center
Gilbert Perreault
1191 512 814 1326 500
Vincent Lecavalier
710 273 329 602 507
Metro Prystai
674 151 179 330 231
Ken Linseman
860 256 551 807 1727
Peter McNab
954 363 450 813 179

over 3800 points over 1500 goals

Right Wingers
Lanny McDonald
1111 500 506 1006 899
Pat Verbeek
1424 522 541 1063 2905
Marian Hossa
701 299 349 648 395
Pie McKenzie
691 206 268 474 917
Billy Gilmour
56 49 0 49 174

over 3200 points over 1500 goals

Left Wingers
Alexandr Yakushev
789 484 500(maybe) 984 ?
Vladimir Krutov
768 467 414 891 406
Kirk Muller
1349 357 602 959 1223
Dan Maloney
737 192 259 451 1489

over 3200 points over 1500 goals


Defenceman
Serge Savard
1040 106 333 439 592
Vladimir Konstantinov
446 47 128 175 838
Bob Goldham
650 28 143 171 400
Graham Drinkwater
41 32 0 32 0
Steve Duchesne
1113 227 525 752 824
Adam Foote
998 65 219 284 1407
Mattias Ohlund
688 87 213 300 651

over 2200 points over 600 goals


over 3800 points over 1500 goals
over 3200 points over 1500 goals
over 3200 points over 1500 goals
over 2200 points over 600 goals

12,400 points 5100 goals

ur tema is a oneline team and featuers many miner leagers but mine ahs savard a bonecruiser who will hurt you

if u think u will win the fog reallyis thick around u tonite

somethings are and some things arenot but clear ly my tema is more dominance than urs

look at there stats

plus every palyer i have is 2way like perrualt kutrov and dushene and malony

the voters don tlike me and thats the olny reason u migh twin

dude I love it.

Jungosi
05-25-2008, 02:55 PM
Game 1 : A firework to start the series

Even before the first puck dropped this series was already the talk of the town. The hate between the GM's of the two teams , Peter "Love" Landers and Franklin Inman the second , earl of Inglewood , was imminent to boil.

"My players have scored 5100 freaking goals , those Jets have NOTHING on them!" - "Love" Landers

"Does this guy really want to tell me that Prystay is two-way? He is a minor-leaguer at best!" Franklin Inman 2nd

With their GM's absolutely hating each other , the fans of both teams were exspecting a lot of bad blood and violence for this series. Some might have been a bit disappointed after this game but most weren't. It was high quality hockey by both teams with Regina coming out on top.

Gilbert Perrault opened the scoring with some jaw-dropping stickhandling past the Jets defense. He tried a similar move just minutes later but was buried by Denis Potvin , who Perrault made look like a fool on the first goal. That hit changed the momentum towards Winnipeg but Plante was able to withstand their attack until Joe Sakic took matters into his own hands and scored with a deadly wristshot on the gloveside. With the score tied neither team was able to get some quality chances. Ovechkin was the one to break the tie and put Winnipeg in front. Pat Verbeek responded pretty fast and Yakushev gave the Pats the lead. The third period was mostly run-and-gun from then on but neither team was able to get by the respective goalie.

Final score : 3-2 Regina , Regina leads the series 1-0

Boxscore
1st period
15:41 - Perrault (Konstantinov,Savard)
2nd period
6:01 - Sakic (Conacher)
18:27 - Ovechkin (O'Connor)
3rd period
1:22 - Verbeek (Lecavalier,Duchesne)
4:57 - Yakushev (Perrault,Konstantinov)

The rest of the write-ups will be there by tomorrow.

Jungosi
05-26-2008, 07:30 AM
Game 2 :Winnipeg 0-2 in the game and the series

After a great start into the series the Pats were looking to extend their lead and started this operation early. Duchesne fired a slapshot on an early powerplay which could only be party deflected by goaltender Jiri Holecek. The loose puck rolled directly to Yakushev's tape and the score was 1-0 in favour of Regina. After the goal Winnipeg started to constantly pressure Jaques Plante's net but with no succes. Jack the Snake made several awesome saves , most notably on Joe Sakic , whose had a clear-cut breakway ,and Tim Kerr on a Winnipeg powerplay. Regina's offence was practicly non-existent in the time between their first goal and the last 5 minutes of the game. In those five minutes Marian Hossa was able to steal the puck with a fine denfensive play and set up Prystai , who scored the game winner.

Final score : 2-0 Regina , Regina leads the series 2-0

Game 3 : Sweep calling?

"This is just awfull. I don't know what is wrong with the team. We just can't score to save our lives at the moment." - Denis Potvin

This desperate statement by the captain Denis Potvin sums up the way the series is running for the Jets. Once again Jaques Plante would destroy any hopes for them. After to rather quiet periods that both lacked major scoring changes Gilbert Perrault scored the go-ahead goal and assisted on Lanny MacDonald's goal just moments later. Too shocked to score the Jets showed first signs of resignation and pretty much called it a game. Plante got his second consecutive shut-out in the series and Perrault registered his his forth point in 3 games. The Jets will need a miracle in order to come off a 3-0 deficit.

Final score : 2-0 Regina , Regina leads the series 3-0

A ray of hope?

Is this the start of a comeback or the Jet's last stand? Well , they've managed to prolong the series for at least one game in dramatic fashion. Once again it was a low-scoring game with another great display of goaltending by Plante. But this time his counterpart was even more stellar. It took a three-on-one for Regina to finally score early in third period. Vincent Lecavalier fed the puck over to Vladimir Krutov and the Russian did not hesitate. In an desperate all-out-attack move Joe Sakic scored the probably most important goal of the series. With a classic snapshot Burnaby Joe was finally able to get past Plante. He would later prove why he is considered as one of the best playoff performers ever. In an exiting overtime period ,that started with two great saves by Holecek, we'd like to swith to the commentary by Jet's announcer George Grande.

"....and the puck is dumped into the Jets zone by Konstaninov , who goes of the ice. 1:30 left in this first overtime period. Potvin has the puck , skating it to center ice. He looks and finds Joe Sakic. Sakic and Conacher on a two-on-two situation against Prystai and Duchesne. Sakic sho.... no he fakes the shot , Prystai goes down and he has SCORED! THE JETS KEEP THEMSELVES ALIVE , what a goal by Sakic!"

Final score : 2-1 Winnipeg , Regina leads the series 3-1

FissionFire
05-26-2008, 08:52 AM
automerge block

Jungosi
05-26-2008, 09:38 AM
Blood and sweat but no tears for the Jets

"Everyone gave 200% tonight. We know it's an almost impossible challange but it was been done before."

Infront of possibly one of loudest crowds ever the Jets are continuing their miraculous comeback in a series everyone thought they had already lost.

The game started rough. Denis Potvin threw out devastating hits and his partner Pronovost did just the same. It got ugly when Pronovost partly missed a hip-check on Perrault and caught much of his left leg. Dan Maloney immidietly jumped Pronovost and all hell broke lose. The benches cleared and one big brawl ensued. Linseman vs. Henderson , Maloney vs. Nolan , Ovechkin vs. Lecavalier , Potvin vs. Foote and Verbeek vs. Parise. Everyone went toe-to-toe with the next best player he could grab. Tons penalty minutes where given out and with some of the best players of the ice the game slowed down significantly. Pronovost was out for the game , Linseman suffered a broken nose and Maloney will very likely get suspended for his actions. There was still a lot of tension in the air but there was no more fighting in the game. Instead of that both teams started scoring goals. Conacher opened on a beatifull feed by Hollet late in the second and moments before the siren would sound Nolan scored another one. After the break Regina responded quick with two markers by Krutov to tie it again. Who else but Joe Sakic would come up big in such a situation? He made a perfect pass to Kerr on a nicely set up play by Potvin. When the puck went in the building errupted. Regina couldn't get by Holecek and Winnipeg showed that they are still alive. Will we see a mircale in game 6 and 7?


Final score : 3-2 Winnipeg , Regina leads the series 3-2

Boxscore
1st period
scoreless
2nd period
14:41 - Conacher (Duchesne)
18:01 - Nolan (O'Connor,Ovechkin)
3rd period
3:21 - Krutov (Lecavalier)
5:15 - Krutov (Duchesne,Foote)
14:44 - Kerr (Sakic,Potvin)

Goaltending extraordinaire and a true hero

In a series hasn't seen more than 3 goals by one team it seems only fitting to have a scoreless regulation. In one of the finest goaltending battles the Regina crowd has ever witnessed Winnipeg came out on top again. Coming of a 3-0 deficit coach Glen Sather rallied his troops and led by an unbealieveable Joe Sakic and Denis Potvin the Jets bravely fought their way back into a lost series. This time it was their czech goalie Holecek that outshined everyone. He made some impossible saves early in the game and continued his incredible performance in the overtime period. Jaques Plante's performance was at least as great. But in the end he would be the one to fail first you don't get a second chance in overtime. For the second time in the series Joe Sakic scored the overtime winner. With grea effort he got the puck on the forecheck , passed it back to Pronovost , who returned to the line-up after missing most of game 5 , Pronvost gave back to Sakic. He showed the coolness you need in those situations , waited , picked is spot and scored. Winnipeg might be able to pull one of the greatest comebacks in sports history. In a game 7 anything can happen and Winnipeg has definetly the psychological edge.

Winnipeg wins 1-0 and ties the series at 3

Boxscore
Regulation
scoreless
Overtime
1st period
scoreless
2nd period
19:10 - Sakic (Pronovost)

FissionFire
05-26-2008, 09:48 AM
33??

Jungosi
05-26-2008, 10:16 AM
Epic

"This is one hell of series. The felt way to safe after winning 3 straight. Now we are in probably most difficult situation I can imagine. Playing a team hotter than hot in their town , in front of their crowd. Holy cow , this is going to be hard." - Bob Johnson.

Streets are dead in Winnipeg around 7pm. Everyone is either in the arena or watches the game at the big video screen outside in the blistering cold. They don't care it's hockey time.

The puck drops precicely at 7:13 pm. Both teams start slow as the nerves are as frayed as they can be. Perrault registers the first shot of the game and it is easyly catched by Holecek. The following face-off is won by Doug Jarvis who clears the puck a goes for a line change. With the Sakic line on the ice the crowd goes nuts. Sakic has become greater than god in Winnipeg. A strong rush by Denis Potvin leads to a penalty against Regina. The Jets powerplay did not play well all series long but this time they were sharp. A little passing , an open Tim Kerr and a typical goal for him. 1-0 Winnipeg , 50 minutes left in the game. Regina began to press harder what lead to a great shorthanded chance for Claude Provost but Plante stoned him. The Pats continued their attack with growing confidence , knowing that Plante would have their back. Midway through the second period McDonald ties the game with a great individual effort. The game got more defensive and more mistakes began to happen. It is kind of ironic that Sakic gave away the puck for Prystai's go-ahead goal. The crowd went quiet after this , they could not believe. The clock began to tick faster and faster for the Jets. They tried hard to find a way past Plante but there was none. One minute left , Sather pulls the goalie , Potvin fires from the points and Kerr scores ...... no he did not. The goal was disallowed immidietly as referee Don Koharski was shure that Kerr interferred Plante right before the puck went in. The uproar in the crowd was unbelievable. Coach Glen Sather almost ran onto the ice to beat the crap out of Koharski but the goal was declared a no-goal. To make things worse Kerr was send to the box. 46 second left , a man down and mentally drained it looked like the Jets had finally lost the game. One man could not live with an end like this. The man was Alexander Ovechkin. With the face-off won again he took the puck , fought his way past Savard and scored. Words can't describe the crowds reaction , but it might have been like this AUohOgRfFTU

It would go to overtime once more. And this time it was a LONG overtime. It took 4 periods of OT to find a winner for the series. Regina. On a play that looked harmless at first Vladimir Konstantinov ended an epic series. A tick,tac,toe play between him Perrault sealed the deal. I've never seen a quiter crowd than this and a more dissappointed bunch of heroes than the Jets. While the Pats went absolutely crazy , the guys on the other end of the rink where in tears.

Regina wins 3-2 and takes the series 4-3

Congrats to seventieslord! And also congrats to vcl. You are the most GM's that have improved their teams most. Good luck next time!

3 Stars :

Plante
Sakic
Potvin

seventieslord
05-26-2008, 10:38 AM
OMFG Jungosi, how could you do this to us??? Very dirty!

Great series, great writeup, and thanks for the best series I've ever been a part of, VCL. :yo:

Who were the 3 stars? I imagine Plante and Sakic were 1 and 2?

Jungosi
05-26-2008, 10:39 AM
3 stars added ;)

FissionFire
05-26-2008, 11:44 AM
You do realize Regina and seventieslord won the series and not Winnipeg and vcl GBC?

seventieslord
05-26-2008, 11:46 AM
I saw that too.... LOL. Looks like he deleted his post.

God Bless Canada
05-26-2008, 11:51 AM
You do realize Regina and seventieslord won the series and not Winnipeg and vcl GBC?
I do now. Asleep at the wheel (or the keyboard) on that one.

I think most of what I said can be salvaged. I think it's still hard to believe a team could beat that Winnipeg squad (or that Regina squad) in three straight games. And I still think VCL will be the guy to beat in a few years, if he remains patient and continues to improve his team.

Manitoba Premier Gary Doerr, and whoever the hell is the mayor of Winnipeg, will be standing at the intersection of Albert Street and Victoria Avenue in Regina, sporting Pats jerseys and meeting Regina fans. (They should be used to it by now). For whatever reason, teams from Winnipeg can't beat teams from Saskatchewan in a best-of-one contest.

vancityluongo
05-26-2008, 07:09 PM
I saw that one coming to be honest. Congrats 70's, great job with the debating. Thanks for the great series, and also to Jungosi for the great writeups.

:handclap:

seventieslord
05-26-2008, 10:52 PM
I saw that one coming to be honest. Congrats 70's, great job with the debating. Thanks for the great series, and also to Jungosi for the great writeups.

:handclap:

Thank you. I was very determined to win my first series!

The next time we meet, may it be in the 2nd round instead of the 1st.

vancityluongo
05-26-2008, 10:55 PM
Thank you. I was very determined to win my first series!

The next time we meet, may it be in the 2nd round instead of the 1st.

Screw that, we'll be aiming for the finals! If we meet you there, all the better!

seventieslord
05-26-2008, 11:05 PM
LOL, well, even better. All I'm saying is, we better not meet in round 1 again because it means one of us will be in the bottom half of our division.